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El Chuxter
09-24-2001, 12:22 PM
I saw some ads for Enterprise this week, and it just looks wrong! I see what JT was talking about. Aside from just looking "not-Trekkie," one commercial had a pop-rock soundtrack.

Worst (for me, at least), one commercial had blank screens with just a couple of words on each: "Every Saga", "Every Generation", and "Every Journey." They seemed too familiar for some reason I couldn't put my finger on. :rolleyes:

bigbarada
09-24-2001, 02:22 PM
What's the deal with the spandex wearing Vulcan? I thought they were supposed to be a more reserved race. Or is it to get the Baywatch crowd watching?

Some of the concepts seem promising, however it really doesn't seem like a Trek show. I'll have to see a few episodes before I can make final judgement, though. TNG sucked in it's first season so I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt.

Rollo Tomassi
09-24-2001, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
Worst (for me, at least), one commercial had blank screens with just a couple of words on each: "Every Saga", "Every Generation", and "Every Journey." They seemed too familiar for some reason I couldn't put my finger on. :rolleyes:




hmmmmm...I've seen that somewhere, too. It's probably from some movie...:D



originally posted by bigbarada
TNG sucked in it's first season so I'll give this one the benefit of the doubt.


Yeah, it did...

master jedi
09-24-2001, 02:36 PM
I don't thik this new Star Trek series will be any good when you compare it to the other 4 star trek series.

I think Gene Roddnberry(sp?) should get some sort of an award for being the dead guy with the most television shows. Including the upcoming enterprise doesn't he have about 7 or 8 tv shows (including re-runs of past star trek shows)?

El Chuxter
09-24-2001, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by master jedi
I think Gene Roddnberry(sp?) should get some sort of an award for being the dead guy with the most television shows. Including the upcoming enterprise doesn't he have about 7 or 8 tv shows (including re-runs of past star trek shows)?

He contracted a disease shortly before his death: notoriousbigitis, commonly called Tupac Shakur Syndrome. :D

Rollo Tomassi
09-24-2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter


He contracted a disease shortly before his death: notoriousbigitis, commonly called Tupac Shakur Syndrome. :D


That's horrible. I am laughing really hard right now...

AmanaMatt
09-25-2001, 04:20 AM
Can't really judge a show before it's on... besides, nothing could possiblly suck as bad as Star Trek: Voyager (I waited 7 years for them to get back to Earth; they do, but all we get is a lousy 5 second shot - WTF? (Die, Biller, DIE!)

As for the rock music in the commercials (as well as the credits), they gotta try something new. This show is supposed to be 150 years or so from now and the producers are using this as an excuse to 'contemporize' the show.

The Vulcan's outfit is just awful, as was 7 of 9's uniform. How can anyone feel dignified in costumes like those? I blame the producers and feel sorry for the actors.

Enterprise can only be good if the writers' take chances and write some really dramatic, witty, and interesting stuff. It's always difficult to write excellent episodes with feet planted 2 feet in the ground!

TeeEye7
09-25-2001, 05:54 AM
Ya know how a dog will tilt its head to one side when you talk to it as if it's saying "I don't understand....."? Well, I think I had the same reaction when I saw Scott Bakula was going to be the head honcho in the new ST series. I have trouble seeing him in this role.

Like everyone else, tho, I need to give it time before I pass judgement.....

(Wow! That auto-censor is a riot....I used another word for 'tilt' at first and it didn't like it. The word was: what you do to the hammer of a gun to pull it back before you fire it.......:o )

JediTricks
09-25-2001, 09:20 AM
Rick Berman should be ashamed of that rip off of the EP 1 trailer. I'm not a fan of the prequel concept in general and this one is no exception, but I'm giving it a chance. However, the 7 of 9 vulcan rip-off is insulting, they even have her wearing LESS clothes in several scenes in the latest ad. I hope the show doesn't insult the viewers as badly as the ads.

JEDIpartner
09-25-2001, 09:28 AM
Well... (covering self from the on-slaught of rocks) I kinda like Scott Bakula in these types of shows. I guess we will have to see how this all pans out, though. I am not a huge TREK fan- just an occasional observer.

I heard that they are going to have a "folk song" playing over the opening credits to give it that "pioneer" feel.

I think they should do that with the STAR WARS saga, too! NOT!

JediTricks
09-25-2001, 09:56 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging on Bakula, he's a talented (if a bit wishy-washy at times) actor, I just think he'd be better suited for something REALLY ambitious.


SPOILER


BTW, this show is going to have time travel themes at certain points (one of the villains will be a race being helped from baddies in the 26th century. I wonder if there will be any "Quantum Leap" references....

bigbarada
09-25-2001, 10:19 AM
I thought the point of this show was to get away from all the tight constraints of the pre-established Trek universe. So, why are they dipping into old ideas already? I have a bad feeling about this.

AmanaMatt
09-25-2001, 12:46 PM
I've seen balagona with more talent than Berman...

Spoiler



the future guy idea is a really, really bad idea... I guarantee it will not last - a future cold war in the 29th century is no way to start a show set in the 22nd

El Chuxter
09-25-2001, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I wonder if there will be any "Quantum Leap" references....

Well, Mr Tricks, you read my mind! I've been trying to come up with something not too obvious--something more in the vein of a "funny Darkman reference." :p

JediCole
09-25-2001, 04:44 PM
Gene Roddenberry has the same kind of post mortum talent that has kept L. Ron Hubbard going long after his death. It is amazing how much free time you have to persue what you love after you die!

mrhat
09-25-2001, 05:17 PM
To answer your post question, no i dont think so. I wish they would just keep going into the future, who cares what happens before Captian Kirk? But no they had to be like a certain movie series which is not to be mentioned, but who knows, maybe itll be done right, probly not, but who knows till tomorrow?

bigbarada
09-25-2001, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by JediCole
Gene Roddenberry has the same kind of post mortum talent that has kept L. Ron Hubbard going long after his death. It is amazing how much free time you have to persue what you love after you die!

So, after Lucas dies we'll get Episodes 7,8 and 9?

JediTricks
09-26-2001, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by JediCole
Gene Roddenberry has the same kind of post mortum talent that has kept L. Ron Hubbard going long after his death. It is amazing how much free time you have to persue what you love after you die! Hmm, I think Hubbard's religious fanatics may have something to do with his continued talent beyond the great beyond. With Roddenberry, it's either a spin-off of Trek, or Majel (Gene's wife) going through all his old ideas and producing them into shows like EFC and Andromeda (with a lot of help from writers and producers, since Gene's written concept for Andromeda was one sentence, I believe ;)).


Mr Hat, I think Rick Berman saw the dollar signs that were haunting Lucas' sweetest dreams and wanted to cash in on the "prequel craze". While there is a teeny tiny pre-NCC-1701 reference to a starship named "Enterprise" (it's limited to a tiny drawing of a ship similar to TOS' "Space Seed" prison ship, Botany Bay, only with a thin circle hovering outside the entire aft section instead of modules encircling the center), I've never met one Trek fan who even WONDERED about that ship's adventures, so what's the point of exploiting something that nobody cared about seeing in the first place? At least some folks wondered about Eps 1-3 of Star Wars, but especially after that book where Kirk as a kid on a space adventure, I don't think anybody ever even had an inkling of pre-Kirk but post-Eugenic-wars days.

JEDIpartner
09-26-2001, 10:53 AM
Rick Berman is STAR TREK's Rick MacCallum!!!! It's the "Rick" conspiracy!!!:eek:

Mandalorian Candidat
09-26-2001, 12:01 PM
This thread makes me wonder if the Trekkies sat around on their forums discussing "Could TPM look any lamer?"

master jedi
09-26-2001, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
This thread makes me wonder if the Trekkies sat around on their forums discussing "Could TPM look any lamer?"

But instead of them saying it in English they say it in Klongon(sp?) while wearing their Spock ears.

bigbarada
09-26-2001, 09:11 PM
I don't think Star Wars fans have any room to talk about dressing up in wierd costumes. Remember the Ep1 premiere and Celebration 1?

Emperor Howdy
09-27-2001, 01:20 AM
I think I saw that new piece of crap tonight.......talk about overacting and a dumb story line.......very disappointing

JediTricks
09-27-2001, 09:15 AM
Well, as a Trekkie, I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either. I dunno, it felt sorta pedestrian like it was trying its hardest to get as many audiences as possible to like it by being spread too thin.* The "technobabble-factor" was nowhere near as low as I was expecting, though it was almost all based on technobabble from TNG which made it at least solid technobabble* ;). The "nearly nude" scene with T'pol in the decon(tamination) chamber was really insulting, far beyond anything they pulled with 7 of 9 on Voyager. This really went over the top with the rubbing of lotion and thin shirt barely covering erect nipples, sure it was sexy, but is this the type of thing Rick Berman feels Trek has to resort to?

None of the scenes had much subtle impact IMO, it was like a brick being thrown through my TV screen that said "inspiring" or "danger!". Bakula wasn't bad, but he was basically just himself (or that "Dr. Sam Beckett" part of him), and the rest of the main cast was all over the map. The actress who played T'pol gave fine readings, when I closed my eyes, I heard her character, but when I looked at her, she went through her lines like a block of wood, barely even blinking. At one point in sickbay, she spent nearly a minute without changing her expression or looking in a different direction or even cocking her head - that's got to be fixed! Dr Phlox was like Neelix-squared, but since I never hated Neelix, it wasn't too bad for me (till we got to that awful CG-smile). The rest of the cast was sort of generic, but I think the whole thing has promise. The last half-hour really dropped the ball though IMO, this was a very standard Voyager ending, I hope they can think their way out of future eps better than this action-ending.

All in all, I found it was not really a prequel to The Original Series (TOS), but more like a prequel to The Next Generation (TNG) - lots of hope, lots of Okudagrams. ;) I don't mind too much if they have to rewrite little pieces of Trek backstory to get this thing working, but I hope they try to be kind to the Trek legend.

One more note, while the credit sequence was visually interesting, the music they chose (some Rod Stewart sound-alike) just didn't work for me. I didn't hate it, and upon a 2nd run-through, I thought it was better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but it didn't have that inspirational feeling that all the Star Trek shows' opening credit sequences had in one way or another. What's really weird is that this music was a huge departure for Trek, but the rest of the show's score felt like any ol' Voyager episode, totally uninspired.


Now, onto my thoughts about where it's going, which means some
POTENTIAL SPOILERS

I'm like 99% sure that the "futureguy" enemy is a Romulan. The temporal cold war is going to be an ongoing theme and I hope they have the smarts to give a few clues without giving the whole thing away.

The transporter was already used deus ex machina, that's a REALLY bad sign there. I hope they have the smarts to make the transporter have some friggin' PROBLEMS in the future.


The Klingons didn't seem to care jack about the humans, this was the wrong note to get off on there. By the end of the first season, there better be some serious Klingon/Human animosity going on!

Obi-Don
09-27-2001, 10:09 AM
JT, you don't leave too much for anyone else to say.I think you got it about right.You should do that for a living.I had a problem with the John Wayne lines that Bakula said all through the show. I thought the ship looked good but I also thought it seemed alittle to advanced on the outside to the workings on the inside. The valcans seemed to me to be alittle to moody and more human than valcan.No one does a valcan like Mr. Spock. There were alot of other things about the show but lets not shoot it before it has a chance to run.All in all I think it has a chance to be a good show and I think that people will have to get used to the different mood of the show.No its not like the others but I don't think its suppose to be.

JEDIpartner
09-27-2001, 10:33 AM
Well... I watched it and I didn't think it was total crap.

I thought Bakula was decent in the role of Archer, but he needs to seem a little more "involved". I did like the fact that they didn't all have the staunch "Starfleet" demeanor and that they seemed like regular Joes from Earth. That kinda set the whole thing apart from the other ST shows for me. Seven... I mean T'pol was pretty lame although I can see some good things in her character once they develop her (no snickers) a little more and once the actress has a chance to get to know her. I can't imagine that it would be easy to play a Vulcan even after years of seeing Nimoy playing Spock.

I agree with the ship's exterior. I thought it should have a little more of the "classic" TREK design to it. Oh, well. I DO like the interior of the ship. It makes sense and is laid out pretty well. I may tune in from time to time as I did with Voyager.

I'm not a TREK fan, but I will watch it occasionally.

...now I hope "WILL & GRACE" gets off to a good start tonight! :p

master jedi
09-27-2001, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I don't think Star Wars fans have any room to talk about dressing up in wierd costumes. Remember the Ep1 premiere and Celebration 1?

I mean dressing up all the time.



Originally posted by JediTricks
Well, as a Trekkie, I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either.

He's a Trekkie!!! Let's get him!!!

Mandalorian Candidat
09-27-2001, 11:25 AM
My impression of the show was luke-warm. It was OK, nothing spectacular. But then again, that was my impression of all the three sequel shows and I ended up liking all of them (esp. DS9).

I thought it was pretty interesting how they did the Vulcan-Human love-hate relationship, but it ended up being over-the-top.

I hope the writing gets better. When you see females in skin-tight outfits or getting a rub-down in the first episode of a non-Baywatch type show you know the screenwriters are going for the lowest common denominator.

As a chemist, I thought their scientific references were pretty ludicrous. What the heck is a "methyl oxide" or "nitrogen sulfide" atmosphere? The ST people are always bragging about being scientifically accurate or at least plausible. Those aren't real chemicals at all (at least in the 21st Century). They need to do their homework more thoroughly.


Originally posted by JediTricks

I'm like 99% sure that the "futureguy" enemy is a Romulan. The temporal cold war is going to be an ongoing theme and I hope they have the smarts to give a few clues without giving the whole thing away.

JT, my impression was the badguy was the Vulcan ambassador. He has the same exact voice as Peter Gallagher, who played the main Vulcan in the beginning of the show. Perhaps this is another cheap EP1 ripoff a la the Darth Sidious format.

JediCole
09-27-2001, 12:19 PM
I am taking the approach of giving "Enterprise" the benefit of the doubt. Sure, we could use more of the old Trek (TOS, TNG) style persuit of the final frontier, but at the same time this prequel approach has its own appeal. It does however buy heavily into the prevailing wisdom in the minds of Star Trek producers that they have to try something new every time. Deep Space 9 was the jumping off point, I had low expectations for a stationary scenario where the action had to come to them. In time it became quite a viable format. Then came Voyager, another departure from the format of the first two series (TOS, TNG), this time a "quest show". For my money this is the single weakest framework upon which to build a series. I grew up having a love/hate relationship with The Land of the Lost, one of the first quest shows I ever remember watching. Though it was fun to watch, the prevailing theme of "we've got to get home but never will or we'd have no series" limits the story structure for the full run. At least Voyage had a built-in chance of seeing the quest through to its culmination, a lame one at that I'm told.
Anyway, enough about that. Like it or not we are stuck with a combination of a departure from the original structure that still works within that framework. As for Bakula, I never watched Quantum Leap so I am not burdoned with comparisons in that regard. I found him an engaging choice. The opening theme song seems a bit awkward for a Star Trek show. Coupled with the opening title montage I was left with a profound sense that I was watching a sci-fi version of the opening titles for The Wonder Years. The Vulcan character is a tough nut to crack. The first Vulcan ever was Spock and his half-human heratige allowed more depth in his character. I think most writers don't know how to approach the self-limiting character of a pure Vulcan. This leads to contridictions in logic (T'pol critisizes humans for still eating the flesh of animals while later admonishing them to embrace an understanding of other cultures and races and their uniqe ways). Hopefully future writers will explore the potential of a Vulcan character. The player that annoyed me the most was the whiny, screechy Asian woman with the great ear. Her character is almost indefinable, at once strong-willed and independent and a frightened woman-child. From the previews of next week's episode it appears her character will not be lent further depth right away.
I will stand with JT on the issue of the decontamination ointment sequence. It seemed both tacked on for the purpose of titilation and uncomfortable to watch. It belonged more in an episode of Baywatch than a Star Trek series. It was like watching good friends become more than acceptable intimate in front of you. It was hard to watch yet hard to look away. In the end it did nothing to move the plot, the dialoges could have been delivered under less oily circumstances.
I found Doctor Phlox to be a quite engaging blend of Neelix and Garak (from DS9). Just enough of the flavor of both to be enjoyable. Though his presence and that of the requesite "bad guys" begs the question, where did these aliens go? During the "Original Series" that is. I am hopeful that we will see Andorians and perhaps the conspicuously absent Tellarites appear in future episodes. But then this is the trouble with prequels. Everything is so much better technology-wise by the time you get to them. And designers want new aliens. Just look at all of the races that appear in Episode I that are lacking in the original trilogy. I justify such things as a product of seeing only a finite part of the universe so not every alien seen in one part of the story (prequel) would necessarily be seen in other parts of the story.
The technobabble may have seemed a bit awkward at first, since it was a product of TNG and all that followed and was almost absent in any degreee in TOS, yet at the same time it begs us to imagine the possibilities inherant in TOS. Just because Kirk, Spock, and company did not spout off strings of vowel rich terms, it does not mean that it would have been so out of place. Much like the Klingons in the show that tell us to just imagine that the swarthy original Klingons had lobster-brows as well (as in the DS9 appearance that reunited some aged actors with their minor roles of the 60s). If you allow yourself to retrofit TOS you will find that this is a delightful look back. I would much prefer that to the high camp look that would result from trying to be too accurate to the look of TOS. In the end I would hope in two to three years we will see the launch of a (TNG) contemporary series that is more akin to the adventures of Picard and crew. The shows vessel does not even have to be an Enterprise, I think Voyager showed that such a thing is possible. But do not restrict it to a theme. Give them the Universe to explore. No quests, no boundries of the past.
All in all I found "Enterprise" an enjoyable show and look forward to watching it develop. I fully expect the growing pains that dog Star Trek series, but when it manages to struggle thorough at least a full season, I think it will be a more worthwhile and watchable program than Voyager.

El Chuxter
09-27-2001, 12:24 PM
I watched it to give it the benefit of the doubt, and I thought it sucked hard! The time villain thing is a huge load of crap. Did anything happen in Trek's early history that wasn't influenced by folks from the time of the earlier shows? And doesn't it defeat the point of seek out new worlds and civilizations. . . to boldly go yadda yadda yadda if apparently humans are the only ones who haven't been there?

I missed That 70s Show and The Family Guy for this? I feel cheated. :(

JediCole
09-27-2001, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat

As a chemist, I thought their scientific references were pretty ludicrous. What the heck is a "methyl oxide" or "nitrogen sulfide" atmosphere? The ST people are always bragging about being scientifically accurate or at least plausible. Those aren't real chemicals at all (at least in the 21st Century). They need to do their homework more thoroughly.


MC,
I'm surprised at you. Discounting the fact that this is pure fantasy and therefore anything is possible, it is true that the tech end of Trek tends to be more informed. Yet you inherantly (as a chemist) have no problem (that you've expressed) with dilithium crystals, a cornerstone of the entire Star Trek reality. But more importantly, as a chemist, you should realize that prior to 1782 Tellurium did not (for all intents and purposes) exist. Prior to 1898, Radium may well have been the imaginings of a madman. And even as recently as 1928, the element Rhenium was not known to mankind. Bear that in mind when you consider how ludicrous such chemical combinations may seem in the context of a sci-fi program. Somtimes you need to embrace the FICTION half of SCIENCE-fiction.

AmanaMatt
09-27-2001, 01:55 PM
Aside from the rub down scene, I thought this was a decent episode...I enjoyed the FX as much as anything, though; I'm suprised folks thought the Asian woman was annoying - she didn't particularly bug me.


Sounds like a lot of you had really high expectations; having suffered through seven years of Voyager, I had zero expectations and had a really fun time with the show - though I will admit, I don't like the Future guy stuff.

Mandalorian Candidat
09-27-2001, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by JediCole


MC,
I'm surprised at you. Discounting the fact that this is pure fantasy and therefore anything is possible, it is true that the tech end of Trek tends to be more informed. Yet you inherantly (as a chemist) have no problem (that you've expressed) with dilithium crystals, a cornerstone of the entire Star Trek reality. But more importantly, as a chemist, you should realize that prior to 1782 Tellurium did not (for all intents and purposes) exist. Prior to 1898, Radium may well have been the imaginings of a madman. And even as recently as 1928, the element Rhenium was not known to mankind. Bear that in mind when you consider how ludicrous such chemical combinations may seem in the context of a sci-fi program. Somtimes you need to embrace the FICTION half of SCIENCE-fiction.

JC, I think you misunderstood me. Of course there's going to be fiction is SCI-FI. Hell, the whole show is based on the premise that faster-than-light travel is possible, even though Einstein showed it's impossible. There's always some kind of suspension of belief on the consumers' part in this genre. I get that. What I'm railing against is that Star Trek producers have frequently said that they use scientific advisors to help them make up plausible story lines or technological items, etc. When they go and throw in ludicrous crap like the fictional compounds they mentioned, it seems dopey. I'm not saying they have any sort of obligation to be 100% scientifically accurate but at a very basic level I can't see why they have to make stuff up? Who hasn't heard of ammonia or methane? Why couldn't they have said something like that?

With SW, you know straight off that the stuff is pure fantasy. That's the difference. ST is science fiction (nonreal but plausible plot in a futuristic setting) and SW is science fantasy (wholly nonplausible but seemingly based on science).

Anyways, let's all stop disagreeing about this Enterprise crap and get back to a subject we can all agree about...Star Wars kicks Star Trek's butt any day of the week.:)

JediTricks
09-28-2001, 09:51 AM
Candidat, I'm not a chemist, but I have to ask, why is it impossible to believe that Methane and Oxygen or Nitrogen and Sulfur could merge in a non-terran environment to create an atmosphere? (Please try to remain as un-technical as you can, since as I pointed out, I'm not a chemist ;).) As for simple ammonia and methane atmospheres, we don't KNOW that they're simply that. Our own atmosphere isn't merely nitrogen/oxygen, it's also got traces of argon, carbon dioxide, neon, and other trace elements, yet we don't mention them. Or perhaps you could take it as the different atmospheric layers containing different chemical compounds, and the whole atmosphere being referred to by its different layers. Trek shouldn't be limited to what we can do NOW, but what the future may contain based on more than one point of view.

As for the vulcan ambassador, I can't see it for several reasons: 1) he's not in the future; 2) I can't imagine what he'd gain by having the Klingons fight each other; 3) Peter Gallagher was a pretty lame Vulcan, I can't imagine him being asked to come BACK. :D


Cole, I almost laughed milk out of my nose at your "Land of the Lost" comment! Luckily, I wasn't drinking milk. ;) Seriously though, I totally agree with ya, the "quest" theme is cute for about 5 episodes, then it gets stale. Apparently, the dead Babylon 5 sequel Crusade was supposed to shed its "quest" theme in the 2nd season, giving way to a whole new universe of possibilities, but unfortunately, TNT killed this show dead. I was told a long while back that one of the things Voyager's writers were strongly considering for season 6 was an unexpected return to the Alpha Quadrant... in the wrong century, then season 7 was a return to the right century and quadrant, dealing with ALL the changes. They should have gone that route instead of the "Gilligan's Island" one. :p

I've always felt that Spock, being a half-breed, was always trying to attain MORE perfection than other Vulcans, and that full-bred, normal Vulcans didn't take their ways so seriously. It's just a theory, but IMO works for all the other Vulcans being somewhat lax in the ol' "stonefaced logic" department and helps explain Spock's desire to be the absolute perfect, logical Vulcan right up to ST:TMP's scene where Spock is finally getting to the level of Kolinar after cutting his ties to Earth. I mean, Kolinar can't be that easy to attain, otherwise every Vulcan would have reached it and it wouldn't be a big deal to the priestess (especially when Spock fails to achieve it).

Poor Ensign Hoshi Sato, she really is a ridiculously-silly character most of the time. The one thing I liked about her was she wasn't SO focused on her job that she forgot to be scared though, at least she stayed in character there. Most of Trek has a character lose themselves in their task to the point of being oblivious to everything else around them, but she clearly was still afraid. However, that does seem to fade once she gets to Rigel 10 and she's back to being all over the map.

I didn't see too much "Garak" in Phlox (aside from the physical similarity), but I am going to rewatch the show this weekend and look for it. Any further thoughts on this?

As for what happens to the bad guy race, the Sulibans, I have a feeling that will be explained by the end of the series, I have a feeling they'll wipe themselves out. I thought it was interesting that "Tholia" was mentioned, but we didn't swarm down on the Tholians from TOS (who had a great ship!), I think we'll get a little more "look what's coming" stuff every week, and I think if handled in a smart way, could work out well.

Kirk and Spock did occasionally get into technobabble, but it was technobabble based on 1960s science, so it was a lot more simplified. Instead of "the warp plasma manifolds are buckling, the backflow controllers are shutting down!", Scotty gave us "she canna' take it!"; where TNG threw us "Captain, the microdensity particle analyzer has detected the wake displacment of the carbon-based matter left by a comet that passed through this system approximately three-hundred-seventy..." "That's enough Mr. Data.", Mr. Spock said stuff like "we're following their carbon trail, Captain.". I think Kirk just didn't have enough time to wait for accuracy. ;)


Chux, you didn't miss Family Guy, it was preempted for a second helping of "Love Cruise". And "That 70's Show" sucked pretty bad, Kelso, Hyde, Jackie, and Fez went to a local theme park and Kelso got lost immediately. Eric was refusing to leave his bed because he was all mopey about Donna, his folks forced him to go downstairs and eat, and Red was extra mean to him. Eventually, Hyde and the other 2 began having fun while looking for Kelso, Kelso was being a doofus having fun without them then hanging out in the lost and found, and Hyde and the rest left the park without him when it closed. Eric eventually was forced to do yardwork, and encountered mopey Donna who was also doing yardwork, they argued, and then Red took Eric to a bar to comiserate about being dumped. IMO, this was one of the weakest episodes of the show ever, but at least Tommy Chong is in the opening credits now.


Amanamatt, I think the Asian communications ensign, Hoshi Sato, was annoying a bit like how Jar Jar was annoying. ;)

Mandalorian Candidat
09-28-2001, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Candidat, I'm not a chemist, but I have to ask, why is it impossible to believe that Methane and Oxygen or Nitrogen and Sulfur could merge in a non-terran environment to create an atmosphere? (Please try to remain as un-technical as you can, since as I pointed out, I'm not a chemist ;).) As for simple ammonia and methane atmospheres, we don't KNOW that they're simply that. Our own atmosphere isn't merely nitrogen/oxygen, it's also got traces of argon, carbon dioxide, neon, and other trace elements, yet we don't mention them. Or perhaps you could take it as the different atmospheric layers containing different chemical compounds, and the whole atmosphere being referred to by its different layers. Trek shouldn't be limited to what we can do NOW, but what the future may contain based on more than one point of view.


Holy crap, JT! How long did it take you to write this one? Did it take longer than your ST vs. SW opus from a few weeks ago? ;)

I really didn't want to get into a whole scientific debate when I made my original post. I just wanted to say that the ST producers are full of crap because they get on their collective soapboxes and spew holier-than-thou rhetoric about how they actually research their technology and 'scientific' information while actually just throwing in phony crud like they do now and then. However, I will entertain your request JT since you are the SUPER MODERATOR and I actually have a modicum of respect for authority.

In the show they talked about 'methyl oxygen.' That term implies that a methyl group (a fundamental organic group with the formula -CH3 which methane, CH3-H or CH4, is based on) is bonded to an oxygen atom (hence, oxide). For example, ferrous oxide, FeO, is one iron atom bonded to an oxygen atom. Oxygen is what is called a 'divalent' atom, meaning that is makes two bonds in an atom. In the case of FeO it is bonded two times to the iron atom.

In the case of 'methyl oxide' the oxygen would either (1) have to be bonded twice to the carbon of the methyl group, giving the compound the formula CH2O, (2) have to be bonded once to the methyl carbon and another atom like hydrogen, making CH3OH, or (3) another carbon making a polymer with the base formula of -(O-CH2)-n, with n representing the number of individual units making up the whole polymer. In all three cases you have something other than a gas and in two of the three cases the molecules have actual names which are very familiar to all non-chemists. CH2O is the formula for formaldehyde, a liquid used as a preservative in embalming fluids as well as a known carcinogen. CH3OH is the formula for methyl alcohol, a.k.a. methanol, well know to all moonshiners as what you get when you use wood instead of grain in your still (don't drink it because it will make you go blind -- just ask Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel). As far as the polymer goes, it would either be a liquid or a solid because of the huge molecular size and weight. I can't think of the 100% correct name of the top of my head, but it would be something like polymethyl ether.

Now, I use this as an example to say that if ST producers are actually using technical people to help them write the scripts and fix any errors during shooting, why didn't they catch this simple screw-up? In all three cases I've presented, the 'methyl oxide' is (1) actually a non-gas and (2) have simpler, more familiar names and thus fits awkwardly in a supposedly scientifically sound ST script. To get around this, the prodcers could easily have referred to their wannabe Nobel Laureates to get the name of an actual gas or could have just made up some name with no reference or connotation to an actually known gas (kind of like what Lucas did in EP1 with 'dioxis').

Now, if I haven't made myself clear to you all please don your dunce caps, face the blackboard, and write "There's plenty of room in the English department" 1000 times. :)

El Chuxter
09-28-2001, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
And "That 70's Show" sucked pretty bad. . . . IMO, this was one of the weakest episodes of the show ever, but at least Tommy Chong is in the opening credits now.

Really? Worse than last season's finale or the Wonderful Life thing on Tuesday? This show is going down fast! :eek:

JediCole
09-28-2001, 03:51 PM
In retrospect I've found that MC's real issue is not the insertion of fictional techno babble, but the fact that previously all described atmospheres EVER on a (TNG and beyond) Star Trek series have been based on known compounds and elements. This was the first time a blatantly unknown and (according to MC's appraisal above) largely impossible elemental mix. I realize now that it is not so much the atmosphere but the fact that there has never been a prior use of such a fictional atmosphere that was at the heart of his complaint.

puppetboy
09-28-2001, 05:43 PM
Actually I liked it. Aside from a few continuity problems, but I tried to overlook those things and enjoy it for what it was. The story and characters were interesting, and the acting was'nt half bad. It just seems to me lately that most Sci-fi fans(star wars and star trek alike) aren't happy unless thay have something to complain about. Just look at all the people who are compaining about how bad episode 2 is gonna suck when the movie isn't even out yet. Attack of the Clones may not be the most origional name, but it works and Jar Jar may not be the coolest character around but I dont hate him or want to see him die. I think people should lighten up and not take things too seriously.

AmanaMatt
09-29-2001, 04:37 AM
Man, JT, that's pretty low! No person, IMO, can be almost as annoying as Jar Jar - except Rosie O'Donnell :D

JediTricks
09-29-2001, 11:44 AM
MC, no, it was not nearly as slow-going as typing up my ST vs SW debate (the debate that debating ST vs SW is a waste of time; debating a debate, I love it!!! ;)) because I let it flow a little more quickly and didn't need to use my imagination.

As for Methyl Oxygen, aren't you judging its properties based on how it would react on OUR planet? My understanding is that a gaseous form of any compound is dependant on environmental states of temperature, pressure, and volume, but on other planets , those environmental factors, along with gravity, would not be Earth-standard which is why planets like Uranus can have a helium/hydrogen/methane atmosphere. So to simplify, why couldn't CH2O be vaporized into a gas under the right conditions without losing its molecular composition? (Of course, this could all be a total waste of typing as the actor could have mis-read the line that was supposed to read "Methane Oxygen", and I know that can exist because of Neptune's hydrogen/helium/methane atmosphere and the aforementioned one of Uranus.) So I may be the class moron when it comes to this chemistry issue, but between temperature, gravity, and even magnetic states that are different from Earth's, I'm still not seeing why this is an absolute impossibility. BTW, Trek mostly uses JPL to do their science assistance, JPL is very happy to assist Trek's writers in fact-checking for the $$$ and PR. (and Cletus ain't blind!)


Chux, it was on par with the "it's a wonderful life" ep from the day before in some ways, but it was also slow and kinda backpeddled that ep which made it annoying in a different way.


I dunno Amanamatt, there's Rick McCallum. ;)

JediTricks
09-29-2001, 12:55 PM
SON OF A P'TAGH! :mad: our fellow forumite vulcantouch pointed out to me that the theme song for "Enterprise" is from "Patch Adams", and it's even sung by Rod Stewart in that film!!! What the hell was Paramount thinking?!? "Let's take a song from a recent movie and get a sound-alike to rerecord it with slightly less talent as the instrumentals." Here's the Amazon.com listing for the soundtrack to Patch Adams (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000GBRH/qid=1001779288/sr=2-4/ref=sr_8_3_4/002-3019926-2574450) which contains a RealAudio clip of the song (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00000GBRH001001/002-3019926-2574450) from that movie!!! This is unbelievable! If it wasn't for that upswingy piano and rhythm guitar (at least, that's what I think it is), this would be a clone! What a freakin' rip off! They couldn't even be original here?!? With this revelation, it seems like nothing about this show is even SLIGHTLY original! Just as insulting as that is the fact that it's not even an unknown song from the Patch Adams soundtrack, it was a radio hit single for Rod Stewart off of the Patch Adams soundtrack and was also apparently a big hit for Christian/Country singer Susan Ashton a year later ('99)! If you've ever seen Louis Black doing comedy (for example, on The Daily Show), that's how I feel inside right now, (metaphorically) shaking and yelling with exasperation!!! (that's why there are so many exclamation marks in this paragraph!!! ;)) It's not even a bad song IMO, both Stewart and Ashton do it credit (though Ashton's is a bit too straight-forward for my tastes - RealAudio clip from the single (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00000I6EF001001/002-3019926-2574450), though it was originally on one of her albums, it's just that the album listing didn't have a clip of her version and this one did), but it's not original and it's not Trek, and it's desparately trying to sound like the singer who made it FAMOUS in the first place only 3 years ago, how lame is that?!?

ThomasLane
09-30-2001, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Amanamatt
Aside from the rub down scene, I thought this was a decent episode...I enjoyed the FX as much as anything, though; I'm suprised folks thought the Asian woman was annoying - she didn't particularly bug me.

Sounds like a lot of you had really high expectations; having suffered through seven years of Voyager, I had zero expectations and had a really fun time with the show - though I will admit, I don't like the Future guy stuff.

I have to completely agree with Amanamatt here. Low expectations. I enjoyed it, but I hope it gets better. The rub-down scene was stupid, stupid, stupid. I think I'm going to enjoy seeing the Enterprise get it's tail repeatedly kicked. [Captain] Raise shields! [Officer] Sir, we haven't invented them yet. [Captain] Oh sh**!

Did anyone actually stick through all 7 seasons of Voyager (has is really been that long)? I think I watched about 1/2 a season. After that, the only way I'd watch is if I stumbled across it while channel surfing and the couch had to strong of a hold on my rear to let me get up and find something useful to do. I have to give some credit to the producers. Whatever audience they had at the end was owed to 7 of 9 and her sexy "uniform".

JediTricks
09-30-2001, 12:01 PM
I watched every episode of Voyager, each season had moments worth seeing, and 7 of 9 actually became a pretty good character once things started falling into place. By the last 2 seasons, everything was a bit too comfortable, but at least there were no more stupid "we've already lost the ship!" plots like the Kazon cliffhanger of season 1.

ThomasLane
10-01-2001, 10:47 AM
Unfortunately, the only other interesting character on the show was the Doctor ("Voyager", not "Enterprise"). Everyone else was extremely one-dimensional and lacking any type of personality (except maybe Tom Paris). There were plenty of good actors on the show, but the writing always seemed to get in the way of building the characters. It's a problem that all of the Star Trek series' have had (except perhaps the original series), but in some cases excellent acting has been able to make up for it and bring some life to characters that otherwise would have been pretty stale (Picard, Qwark, 7 of 9, Holo-Doctor).

JediTricks
10-02-2001, 10:17 AM
I thought Janeway was an interesting character who was later made one-dimensional, B'Elanna too. Voyager seemed to beat the life out of its show by the end of season 1, and unlike TNG, never caught its second-wind (though it occasionally had a breeze nearby ;)).

master jedi
10-02-2001, 05:17 PM
Excluding Enterprise here is my list of Star Trek's from best to worst:

1. The Next Generation
2. Deep Space 9
3. Voyager
4. The Original Series


5 Star Trek series??? How's this even possible? Have we all gone mad?

JediTricks
10-03-2001, 07:26 AM
Just a quick mention, TNN (formerly The Nashville Network and now The National Network) is currently having a 5-day TNG marathon (it started on Oct 1st). Though not every ep is in here, I checked, several of my favorites ain't, the list they have is pretty good. For some reason, instead of going 24 hours a day on this, they have a 7-hour gap between 2am and 9am (when I'm awake, of course :rolleyes: ) that's only infomercials. Also, they have this ugly, stupid black bar on the bottom of the screen with the title of the show and another piece of info as well as the TNN logo, which has been converted to TNG-font. But, if you can bear that, it's great to have TNG back on, and on all day!

I hope in 10 years, there will be an all-Trek network that's on 24 hours a day.

Tycho
10-05-2001, 10:34 PM
Then there should be an all Deep Space Nine marathon - the best show, in sequence, exploring Star Trek's darkest war!

As to Enterprise, I love the new theme song! It's been stuck in my head all day (maybe since last Wednesday's second episode) and I dig it. It was a rebellious move to switch to rock 'n roll!

Furthermore, in Trek history, it sort of fits with Zephrame Cochrane's musical taste, but 'Magic Carpet' wouldn't have worked for an opening theme song and still sound epic. There is a distinct '80's feel with the new song that takes me back to teen pop-culture movies like Top Gun, Back to the Future, or Transformers: the Movie (and the girlie ones like Dream a Little Dream etc. - though I never saw them but heard the soundtracks). Those were good years - (you listen to Jay and Silent Bob, or they'll come after you next!)

Furthermore, I loved the rub-on decontamination scene! I mean I loved it as much as the happy writers and director did when they thought it up to have the actors do that. But I want a better scene where T'Pol and Oshi (the communications girl) are in the room and have to rub gel all over each others' bodies. You won't see that in Star Wars!

I did watch every episode of Voyager and saw it improving - not by way of Seven of Nine, though. I actually was disappointed that when they first brought her aboard, the show focused too much on Seven, and not enough development of the rest of the crew. Tom Paris and Harry Kim were my favorite characters, especially their adventures together. Tuvok was awesome, and my favorite Vulcan over Spock, (and I am a big fan of TOS). T'Pol won't out-do Tuvok, but I don't want to see him in a rub-down.

Meanwhile, though I'm showing my unsophisticated taste (not), the topic here is actually Enterprise. I think the Captain is great, and I like the engineer, Trip. He seems like he's really the First Officer to me, as B*tch, er - I mean T'Pol, just seems to be an obstacle to evade (or an excuse for every extra 5 minutes of dialogue they need). Dr. Phlox is nowhere as annoying as Neelix, and not the same kind of cutesie character, but a more respectable man of some experience - and he's not arrogant and demeaning about it like Doc on Voyager. Will the rest of the crew become interesting? I don't know. I've seen the second show now, and Oshi is a very real character, regardless of whether I like her or not (she's not very inspiring - but that's precisely what leaves room to evolve her character). The others, the weapons officer (Brit) and the helmsman (Space-Boomer) leave much more to be desired, but the almost all human "there's nothing special about them" crew lends to the reality of the show, and the sense that they're just like me. On TNG, everyone had some kind of super power or something almost. It was almost X-Men in Space.

So, we'll see how this show goes, but I like it a lot and think it's off to a strong start.

Mandalorian Candidat
10-08-2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
As for Methyl Oxygen, aren't you judging its properties based on how it would react on OUR planet? My understanding is that a gaseous form of any compound is dependant on environmental states of temperature, pressure, and volume, but on other planets , those environmental factors, along with gravity, would not be Earth-standard which is why planets like Uranus can have a helium/hydrogen/methane atmosphere. So to simplify, why couldn't CH2O be vaporized into a gas under the right conditions without losing its molecular composition? (Of course, this could all be a total waste of typing as the actor could have mis-read the line that was supposed to read "Methane Oxygen", and I know that can exist because of Neptune's hydrogen/helium/methane atmosphere and the aforementioned one of Uranus.) So I may be the class moron when it comes to this chemistry issue, but between temperature, gravity, and even magnetic states that are different from Earth's, I'm still not seeing why this is an absolute impossibility. BTW, Trek mostly uses JPL to do their science assistance, JPL is very happy to assist Trek's writers in fact-checking for the $$$ and PR. (and Cletus ain't blind!)

Holy freak! I give up! I feel like the guy in the joke "How do you confuse a Pollock?"

I think I'll just watch Drew Carey instead. The only scientific thing they've ever had on that show is that you can mix beer and coffee and sell it to drunk people in Cleveland.

JediTricks
10-09-2001, 10:27 AM
What? You made a comment, you clarified your comment but in very technical terms, and when I asked why it couldn't be a gas under different atmospheric/planetary terms, you bug out? I'm serious about my question, I'm not too bright on the chemical situation but I don't see why this is an impossibility and wonder why that would be.

Mandalorian Candidat
10-09-2001, 11:27 AM
Sorry JT. I'm just tired of repeating myself. I feel like a substitute teacher who keeps yelling at the kids to shut up and sit down.

I suppose your question is valid and I'll attempt to answer it without going over what I've said before. We know that states of matter (gas, solid, liquid) depend on various factors like temperature and pressure. For example, I often use volatile solvents like ethyl acetate or methylene chloride. I can easily remove them from compounds I isolate by putting them under a vacuum (very, very low pressure) so they boil at a lower temperature. So sure, it's possible to have a gas like oxygen or nitrogen to be under high enough pressure so they are liquid at another plants ambient temperature. Likewise it's possible to have an atmosphere where a liquid on earth, like water, is gaseous on another planet. Therefore it's possible that formaldehyde (CH2O) could be a gas on another planet.

As far as other planets and their exotic atmospheres go, they are that way because that's what they have. I'm sure that if oxygen were present on Uranus (no puns please) it would be incorporated into the mix with other gases. On earth, we just so happen to have nitrogen, oxygen, and a multitude of other gases in trace proportions. That's just how the planets were formed.

Mandalorian Candidat
10-09-2001, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
As a chemist, I thought their scientific references were pretty ludicrous. What the heck is a "methyl oxide" or "nitrogen sulfide" atmosphere? The ST people are always bragging about being scientifically accurate or at least plausible. Those aren't real chemicals at all (at least in the 21st Century). They need to do their homework more thoroughly.


Well, it looks like I can't just let this thread rest in peace. After JT's latest prodding to answer his questions I decided to hunt around on the web to find any references to this so-called compound Star Trek writers refer to as "methyl oxide." Guess what? Yes, it exists. There is a link from the United States Fire Administration/FEMA hazmat website to a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for a compound called methyl ether (formula = CH3OCH3) which has a trite name of methyl oxide. According to the MSDS it freezes at -12F, meaning that it's a gas, albeit a very flammable one, at ambient temperature.

I have to give my apologies for misleading anyone. That name is definitely not used when referring to that compound. I use ethyl ether frequently and have never ever heard it referred to as "ethyl oxide." However, I'll still stick with my original complaint about the technical details from the ST writers. I seriously doubt they looked up that detail. Someone probably thought it was a cool techie sounding term and threw it in.

If you are interested, just follow the link...

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/pdf/hazmat/page_212.pdf

JediTricks
10-10-2001, 10:35 AM
Thanks MC. I bet the Ent writers said "we need some planetary atmospheres that are ridiculously caustic to the human respiratory system" and that's what they came up with (let's face it, breathing formaldehyde hasn't been so great for cadavers ;)) and their technical consultants just signed off on it because it's not 100% impossible. ;)

Tonight's another new ep, and the previews look straight out of Voyager. I sure hope it's not too awful, I want some TOS magic, damnit! Heck, I'll settle for TNG magic!

JediTricks
10-12-2001, 08:12 AM
Well, it wasn't "magic", but it wasn't "Voyager"-bad either. ;) The transporter messing up was pretty wild, but the final effect was disappointing. All in all, I wouldn't say it was terrible.