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stillakid
06-12-2002, 11:54 AM
Here is what we know so far:

Palpatine wakes up one day and decides to take over the galaxy. (pre-TPM)

Senator Palpatine enlists the Trade Federation to start a scuffle on Naboo. (TPM)

Palpatine wants Queen Amidala to sign a treaty with the Trade Federation. (TPM) Why does he need this treaty signed and what would the treaty actually do if it was signed? And how would a mystery treaty between Naboo and the Trade Federation aid Palpatine in taking over the galaxy?

The situation seems to work out in Palpatine's favor when Amidala escapes to appear before the Senate. Now he can influence her to be the motivating factor in removing Valorum from the Chancellor's seat, which happens. (TPM)

Now Palpatine is "in charge" of the Senate. (TPM)

Presumably, Palpatine enlists the help of Dooka and possibly Sifo Dyas to build a clone army. In political terms, what does this do for Palpatine's plan to take over? Why begin construction of the army before he knows for sure that he can "make it legal?" If his plans didn't work out (either through the bill to make it legal or by maneuvering his way into getting special executive powers) (b/n TPM and AOTC)

Nute Gunray, possibly with the urging of Palpatine, attempts to assasinate Amidala before she can stop the official go-ahead for a clone army (which is being constructed anyway). (AOTC)

With the assasination attempts thwarted, Palpatine gets Amidala to leave Coruscant believing that she will be absent during the critical vote and/or because he knows that simple minded Jar Jar can be influenced to hand over the special "executive powers" to Palpatine. (AOTC)

Palpatine specifically suggests that Amidala be protected by Obi Wan Kenobi. Why Kenobi specifically? Is he assuming that Anakin will be there too? Does Anakin's presence with Amidala have anything to do with his intricate plan? (AOTC) Has Palpatine already weaved Anakin into his plans at this point or by this point? What purpose would Anakin have for Palpatine in his "new order?"


Those are the main bullet points as far as I can tell. Jump right in to fill in the blanks if I missed any and fire away at those questions regarding the main highlights of his plan as we know it. Please don't just deal with only one of the points or questions as all of them relate to each other in chronological order. Please quote each bullet point and each question specifically and deal with them individually in order. Thanks! :)

Bosskman
06-12-2002, 01:07 PM
Palpatine's plan is so brilliant that the details don't matter - they all arrive at the same end. For example: In TPM, if the TF got Amidala to sign the treaty, it would establish a precedent that would outrage many planets, contributing to the appearance that Valorum is a weak leader. Palpy could have easily found someone else to call for a vote of no confidence in Valorum. It just so happened that Amidala was there to manipulate. Also, the outcome of the Battle on Naboo didn't matter in the least. It was merely one example of the discord sowed by Palpy throughout the republic. By the time AOTC rolls around, many such conflicts resulted in those thousands of seperatist systems breaking away. Palpy is controling both sides: the republic as chancellor, and the sepratists through Dooku as Darth Sidious. It doesn't matter who wins the Clone Wars, Palpy wins either way. His goal is the extermination of the Jedi using Anakin. Dooku's just a pawn. Yoda says the sith use treachery, lies, and deceit. Palpy is a master of all three. He's playing everybody, Yoda included, and they don't even know it. Palpy couldn't have cared less if Amidala was killed, but since she survived, he knows that she's just one more way of turning Anakin. If she had been killed, he would have easily found another way: his fear over his mother, his angst over Obi Wan, hell, the death of Padme would have been great too if it had occured as planned.

scruffziller
06-12-2002, 03:17 PM
Yea and don't forget he is possibly behind Schmi's death as well. I would see that nothing is by accident of how things are going down.

stillakid
06-12-2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by scruffziller
Yea and don't forget he is possibly behind Schmi's death as well. I would see that nothing is by accident of how things are going down.


Thanks for the input, but I was hoping for a serious and methodical step by step examination of Palpatine's plan for galactic takeover. The details certainly are very important and the point of this particular discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.

scruffziller
06-12-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



Thanks for the input, but I was hoping for a serious and methodical step by step examination of Palpatine's plan for galactic takeover. The details certainly are very important and the point of this particular discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
I posted that on my break at work when I had a small amount of time, I promise I will come back and DEFINATELY do it that way.:)

chewie
06-12-2002, 06:10 PM
I'm just going to add in a couple of ideas here (not try to extrapolate an entire thesis on the plot points of the prequels).

The mysterious treaty that Palpatine wants signed is merely a ruse that he HAS to use in order to get the Trade Federation to continue to do his bidding. If they had no incentive to go to war, they would have never agreed to the invasion in the first place. Having Darth Maul hunt for Amidala to try to hunt her down and bring her back to Naboo to sign the treaty was simply another part of the ruse. Palpatine again had to make it appear that he wanted that treaty signed no matter the cost.

He also used Maul as a patsy. His view into the future allowed him to see how the entire treaty ruse would play out. He knew Maul would be killed fighting the Jedi because he needed a real and infuencial person like Count DookU (not Dooka as you love to type, Stilla). A crazed musclebound tatooed freak that could barely speak would not have started the seperatists movement. Dooku had to get involved, and the only way to involve Dooku was to kill off his first apprentice.

As for what exactly the treaty would have gotten the Trade Federation, I don't exactly know. The TF was getting into new territory with the invasion/taking over the capitol city of the planet thing. They didn't even know how to fight, they just told their droids what to do and hoped they did it. I imagine the treaty would not only give the Federation total import/export power over Naboo, but apparently give them control of the planet as well. Of course the TF would see this in a good light. Palpatine must have earned their trust somehow. Probably through large cash infusions I imagine. Or perhaps he mind tricked a whole lot of dumb Neimodians.

stillakid
06-12-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by chewie
His view into the future allowed him to see how the entire treaty ruse would play out.

Your entire theory has it's foundation on the above statement. Where is the basis for such a conclusion beyond your own conjecture? :confused:

chewie
06-12-2002, 07:07 PM
My basis on this conclusion is due to the movies Empire Strkes back and Return of the Jedi. Vader clamed in ESB that Palpatine could forsee Luke killing him (Palpatine). In Return of the Jedi, there were at least a few statements by Palpatine that he could see into the future. Now he couldn't see very well into the future (at least at that point), but it seems that his foresight had gotten him up to his high status as of the original trilogy.

Also, my theory doesn't have to hinge on Palpatine's force powers. If he couldn't see at all into the future, then he could still have simply taken the Neimodians for a ride with the treaty. After all, he influenced them enough to go along with his scheme. Which may or may not have precipitated any force power usage.

As for Palps knowing that Maul would be killed, I believe it is a sound theory to think that he knew that, or at least he hoped that would happen in the course of his plan. If Palpatine wanted to become master of the universe, Darth Maul, while exceedingly powerful physically, could not take on the entire Republic and the Jedi by himself. Maul's tactics and upbringing certainly didn't include any coersion or influencing abilities. Getting Dooku, or some other statesman to get thousands of planets to sign up for war is about the only option two people against a universe that was teeming with other sentient life forms would have.

Also Stilla. I've noticed you're always wanting these bits of information put out in the movie itself. Which may be the basis for this entire thread. To show that the strange lack of information in the prequels could confuse those who could not extrapolate ideas (such as children). The prequels, IMO, have to be watched after you watch the original trilogy. Gaining knowledge of Palpatine's force ability seems necessary for a deeper understanding of the plot. BUT, it would also remove (however little) of the revelation of Palpatine being a super powerful sith master in EIII. While the audience knows this already (for the most part), even without seeing the original movies, I would hope that EIII would clarify Palpatine's force powers, and actually explain in part his plan in his own words, without requiring fan extrapolation.

stillakid
06-12-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by chewie

Also Stilla. I've noticed you're always wanting these bits of information put out in the movie itself. Which may be the basis for this entire thread. To show that the strange lack of information in the prequels could confuse those who could not extrapolate ideas (such as children). The prequels, IMO, have to be watched after you watch the original trilogy. Gaining knowledge of Palpatine's force ability seems necessary for a deeper understanding of the plot. BUT, it would also remove (however little) of the revelation of Palpatine being a super powerful sith master in EIII. While the audience knows this already (for the most part), even without seeing the original movies, I would hope that EIII would clarify Palpatine's force powers, and actually explain in part his plan in his own words, without requiring fan extrapolation.

However George chooses to write it, I'm just interested in seeing a good story. If he constructs a plausible plot and includes information when necessary and excludes extraneous information than that is the basis of a well designed story.

I'm not specifically looking for every single detail to be spelled out for the brain-dead in the crowd. For example, that's one reason I've been opposed to the Midichlorians from the start. It was nothing more than a overly simplistic plot device to "prove" to the audience that Anakin had Force potential. There was no subtlety there at all. The audience isn't as stupid as Lucas seems to think. He's been taking lessons lately from the Joel Schumaker school of beat-us-over-the-head filmmaking.

But I digress. :) While I agree that at present, the only way to really understand what is going on in the Prequels is to have knowledge of what comes after in the OT, I'm just trying to figure out Palpatine's detailed plan that gets him from point A to point B to point C and so on.

I hatched this thread after my last viewing of AOTC. I took special note of Palpatine's "gentle prodding" that Padme be looked after by Obi Wan. It seemed to be too calculated a "suggestion" to be nothing more than offering her a familiar face to hang out with. He had something up his sleeve when he suggested Padme be protected by Obi Wan. I'm curious as to what that might be and how it ties into his overall plans.

Jedi Clint
06-12-2002, 11:26 PM
Perhaps he knew that Anakin would recieve his first solo mission from the suggestion, and he'd have Palpatine to thank for it.

2-1B
06-13-2002, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Here is what we know so far:
Palpatine wakes up one day and decides to take over the galaxy. (pre-TPM)

Check. Unrelated to this specific thread, I'll say that I have no interest in how Palpatine learned about the Dark Side, I have yet to see any intriguing theories. To me, it doesn't matter - even if he had a master (it's my preference that he did not) then I could ask where that guy came from and the guy before him, etc.
Anyway, back to this thread.



Senator Palpatine enlists the Trade Federation to start a scuffle on Naboo. (TPM)

Yes, Naboo is the perfect place since it's his home planet. Any problems concern Palpatine personally, and he will certainly have the ear of the planet's leader.


Palpatine wants Queen Amidala to sign a treaty with the Trade Federation. (TPM) Why does he need this treaty signed and what would the treaty actually do if it was signed? And how would a mystery treaty between Naboo and the Trade Federation aid Palpatine in taking over the galaxy?

Good questions! He uses a ploy to get the Federation on board. They aren't going to blockade a planet for any reason other than their own greed, not to just do the bidding of a Sith Lord. If Palpatine guarantees that Naboo will sign a treaty, the Federation see dollar signs as they will benefit financially. If a treaty is signed, shipping resumes with the TF getting a higher profit.

If that plan is a success, then Palpatine can cry to the Senate about how the Federation blockaded his planet and strongarmed the young ruler into going along with it. The Federation holds a seat in the Senate, their inevitable clashes with Naboo will be nasty and will present a microcosm of the larger problems at hand concerning corruption, greed, special interests - all under the watch of Valorum. Once discredited, he will be removed from office. Palpatine obviously has enough votes tucked away to get himself elected, as that is the result we see when Valorum is booted.


The situation seems to work out in Palpatine's favor when Amidala escapes to appear before the Senate. Now he can influence her to be the motivating factor in removing Valorum from the Chancellor's seat, which happens. (TPM)

Agreed, as the situation is that much more critical since the blockade is still ongoing. Urgency is key, and a Queen under duress must be even more convincing. Same result as originally intended, only more "guaranteed".


Now Palpatine is "in charge" of the Senate. (TPM)

Presumably, Palpatine enlists the help of Dooka and possibly Sifo Dyas to build a clone army. In political terms, what does this do for Palpatine's plan to take over? Why begin construction of the army before he knows for sure that he can "make it legal?" If his plans didn't work out (either through the bill to make it legal or by maneuvering his way into getting special executive powers) (b/n TPM and AOTC)

Yes, Dooku joins, but IMO Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with it. Dooku uses the name of a fallen Jedi to place the order, the Kaminoans don't know any better, they honestly think they're creating an army under the authorization of the Jedi Council.
I doubt Palpatine himself ordered the clones, remember he is a visible politician on Coruscant, why leave and allow for questions to his whereabouts when the rogue Dooku can do it?

In political terms, Palpatine already knows the separatists have a huge droid army ready to go if necessary, and as leader of the republic Palpatine will need to be able to address that threat.

Why build it before he knows for sure he can get it approved?
I have to say that it's a calculated risk. If his plot burns out, he's not to blame, as the person who ordered the army is related to the Jedi - Palpatine is not connected in any way. So it's not an issue concerning his political future as the Jedi ordered it for the republic, not the chancellor of the republic himself.
What if the Kaminoans show up asking what to do with all of those clones that nobody came to collect? The Jedi will be so confused by the suggestion that one of their own ordered the army . . . they may be reputable enough to not take the full blame, but the Kaminoans can't be discredited since they honestly believe the Jedi placed the order. One word against the other, perhaps.


Nute Gunray, possibly with the urging of Palpatine, attempts to assasinate Amidala before she can stop the official go-ahead for a clone army (which is being constructed anyway). (AOTC)

They weren't going to vote on the creation of a clone army, rather an "Army of the Republic" - presumably one made of non-clones. Cloning itself isn't a secret, but there's nothing in the film that leads me to believe they were considering a clone army.
Obi-Wan's amazement at a Kamino clone army suggests to me that it's not the same thing that Amidala is publicly and politically attempting to defeat. Anakin knew of Amidala's role in the opposition, if he knew then Kenobi had to have at least some knowledge of the situation.
Maybe some people saw it the other way - that's my understanding of it anyway.

The assassination attempts - Nute has a personal vendetta, plus he makes for a mighty fine scapegoat. Heck, it worked on Obi-Wan since he used the quickest and most obvious reason as the full story. Had Amidala been killed, it would serve two purposes,
1) the leader of the oppositon to the Army of the Republic will be out of the way, and
2) Palpatine can use her murder to show how dangerous the separatists are. The Republic will have no choice but to use force to protect the rest of the Republic - force that can only be wielded thru an army.


With the assasination attempts thwarted, Palpatine gets Amidala to leave Coruscant believing that she will be absent during the critical vote and/or because he knows that simple minded Jar Jar can be influenced to hand over the special "executive powers" to Palpatine. (AOTC)

Yep, go to plan "B". She's not dead, which would be ideal, but getting her out of the way is the next best thing. I agree completely with this part.


Palpatine specifically suggests that Amidala be protected by Obi Wan Kenobi. Why Kenobi specifically? Is he assuming that Anakin will be there too? Does Anakin's presence with Amidala have anything to do with his intricate plan? (AOTC) Has Palpatine already weaved Anakin into his plans at this point or by this point? What purpose would Anakin have for Palpatine in his "new order?"

I think Palpatine has long term plans for Anakin as his apprentice. He's told him how great he is and all that stuff, I think a plan of that magnitude needs A LOT of gestation. Sadly, we don't see too much of it in AOTC, but the implication is there, at least enough to develop some ideas off of it.

But why Kenobi specifically? I think it's mainly because he's the most likely person for Amidala to accept as a guardian. Qui-Gon is dead, but she knows Obi-Wan from a decade ago. She and Jimmy Smits do not like the idea of more protection, and Obi-Wan's name might be enough to convince her to take on additional security.

Palpatine knows there will be another attempt on Amidala's life, since he deals directly with Amidala he will therefore have more direct contact with Anakin. It's important that she die from those Kouhouns (little bugs that Jango gives Zam). Just a guess on my part, but if Anakin sees his master (and himself) fail at protecting a senator, that has to be a nice angle for Palpatine to work his influence, it would be a prime example for Anakin of how inefficient the Jedi really can be. And of how Anakin can be just that much better without them. But I don't want to speculate too much.

Or maybe Palpatine knows that if Obi-Wan and Anakin spoil the next attempt, they'll start finding partial answers. Palpatine should know that the same bounty hunter used for the clones is the one orchestrating the attempts on Amidala's life. If he knows that, he also knows that it leaves a trail.

Heck, I'll even reverse the theory that she had to die and ask you to consider that maybe Palpatine didn't really want her dead? By using a few failed attacks --
a) being he knows the senator so well, it's logical that he would be aware of her use of a decoy; a hit on the decoy wouldn't achieve the goal
b) those little bugs are lethal, but 2 Jedi should be able to handle them. And with their abilities, they should be able to follow a few clues to Jango, meaning discovery of the clones and later the droid armies being amassed.

Did Palpatine REALLY want Amidala dead? Possibly, but I'm not 100% certain. Either way, it's win / win / win for him.
If she dies, he wins and can press for an army.
If she lives and the Jedi track down the separatists and the clones, he wins because there is evidence of the threat and the need for an army.
If she dies AND the Jedi track down her killers, the same is achieved perhaps with a little more ease since she's gone.

So her death would be very helpful, but failure in that aspect does not mean failure for the whole plan. The very same plan that he tells Dooku is going as planned, so he can't be too bothered that Amidala lives.



Those are the main bullet points as far as I can tell. Jump right in to fill in the blanks if I missed any and fire away at those questions regarding the main highlights of his plan as we know it. Please don't just deal with only one of the points or questions as all of them relate to each other in chronological order. Please quote each bullet point and each question specifically and deal with them individually in order. Thanks!

Hmmm, your chronology looks pretty good to me. I can't think of any points to add to the timeline right now, I'll be sure to keep reading this thread to see what other people come up with. I'm sure that will prompt some more out of me . . . :)

bigbarada
06-13-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by stillakid

Palpatine wakes up one day and decides to take over the galaxy. (pre-TPM)



I'm sure this has something to do with the revenge the Sith want against the Jedi.

In any case, why did Attila the Hun, Ghengis Kahn, Adolph Hitler, Christopher Columbus, the Vikings, Julius Caesar and Nimrod all stage campaigns of terror, conquest and destruction? Simple. Power, glory and riches.

You'd be surprised at how petty conquerers and dictators can be.:Pirate:

stillakid
06-13-2002, 11:17 AM
Thanks for that Caesar. You've cleared up some questions that I had and sparked new ones. I'm looking forward to reading the thoughts of others.



I'm sure this has something to do with the revenge the Sith want against the Jedi.

But why do the Sith want "revenge" in the first place? What did the Jedi do to the Sith so long ago that made them so upset at each other?

My limited understanding of the Sith order is that it used to have many members. But because of the nature of their beliefs or behavior, they have intense jealousy and ambition so are always eager to do away with their competition. As a result, the Sith battled one another until just one was left standing. In order for the Sith to continue, it necessitates the fully trained Sith to take on an apprentice who, in time, will grow strong and most likely dispatch the Master. Then the cycle continues.

So, again, where do the Jedi enter this equation exactly? Is is just because the Jedi "rule" the galaxy that a Sith Lord (Palpatine) realizes the need to take over the politics of the government in order to take down the Jedi influence and exterminate them? Is this nothing more than a jealous and power hungry Sith's bid for ultimate power?

Jedi Clint
06-13-2002, 12:41 PM
Perhaps the Sith used to run things before the Republic and before the Jedi. I can't remember if that is the case or not. I do remember that the Sith didn't totally self destruct. The Jedi finished off all that were left of their order except for one. That one probably blamed the Jedi for their situation, and he taught his apprentice to hate them and so on and so forth.

2-1B
06-14-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Thanks for that Caesar. You've cleared up some questions that I had and sparked new ones. I'm looking forward to reading the thoughts of others.

:cool: Thanks for starting this thread, I've been thinking about some of these issues too since I saw AOTC and while it "makes sense" to me for the most part, it was a real exercise to plow through everything. As you could see, I got hung up on the "death of Amidala" part. :D



But why do the Sith want "revenge" in the first place? What did the Jedi do to the Sith so long ago that made them so upset at each other?

My limited understanding of the Sith order is that it used to have many members. But because of the nature of their beliefs or behavior, they have intense jealousy and ambition so are always eager to do away with their competition. As a result, the Sith battled one another until just one was left standing. In order for the Sith to continue, it necessitates the fully trained Sith to take on an apprentice who, in time, will grow strong and most likely dispatch the Master. Then the cycle continues.

So, again, where do the Jedi enter this equation exactly? Is is just because the Jedi "rule" the galaxy that a Sith Lord (Palpatine) realizes the need to take over the politics of the government in order to take down the Jedi influence and exterminate them? Is this nothing more than a jealous and power hungry Sith's bid for ultimate power?

Well, as you consider my thoughts on this Sith business, please understand that I don't give much thought to any of the EU that fleshes it out (characters like Darth Bane and the like).

Going from TPM, I heard Ki-Adi-Mundi say that the Sith had been extinct for a millenium. Maybe they were extinct, maybe he was wrong, but IMO they were extinct. Palpatine had no master, he learned of the Dark Side and embraced it. He grows powerful and takes an apprentice, Darth Maul, and I honestly don't care where he came from or how Palps found him.

Back to Ki-Adi: however many Sith there were, they were most likely finished off by the Jedi. I think it's a fair guess, good force users eliminating bad force users (they never say exactly on screen how many Sith there were or how they became extinct)

I used bold on "were" because Yoda says there are always 2, no more no less. IMO, when the Jedi eliminated the Sith, they only took down 2. Not a whole army of Sith or anything like that. And I don't think the "rule of 2" is a rule at all, I cringe when I see people refer to it. Yoda only says "only 2 there are, no more, no less". He didn't say they have a rule of 2, rather it's a reflection of the very nature of the Sith - greed goes above all else.
Why in hell would a group of bad guys set up a line of succession or something silly (this isn't the Mafia) to "preserve" their influence when these guys can't even wait to overthrow his master within his own lifetime? Jeez, I wouldn't worry about the future when I have to keep looking over my back.

Okay, one could argue that Palps HAD to have a master, because of Yoda and the "no more, no less" business. Fair enough, but for such a Sith order to "return" (a word used by Mace Windu) doesn't it make sense that they have to start with one? Palpatine can't appear with an apprentice, he has to TRAIN Maul - by definition, Palps is a Sith before the moment he takes on Maul's training, so the return of the Sith must start with one person dipping into the evil pool.

I don't know if that's of interest to anybody, I only used 3 references from TPM to rant against the EU stuff, I could probably extrapolate using Maul's mention of "revealing ourselves" and I might use Vader's ESB mention of destroying the
Emperor . . . we can go further if anyone is interested.

Let me know what you think . . . :)
(I know there are a lot fo EU fans on these forums, I mean no disrespect if you subscribe to it, I just don't care for much of it myself - so I try to use the films as the basis of my points :) )

Obi-Wan-A-Bi
06-16-2002, 12:29 AM
Here's what I think. :)

TPM:

Palpy knows Amidala is not weak although she certainly looks "young and nieve" (sp?). He convinces the trade federation to move against Naboo knowing she will fight this in the senate. Once she arrives on Courisant, Palpatine convinces her that the beaurocrats have control over the chancellor, they do, most likely due to Palpatines influence. Amidala believes him and casts a "vote of no confidence" in Chancellor Velorum. This leads to Palpatine being elected into that, the position he wants, giving him great authority & power. Hence the title "The Fantom Menace". Which is the threat to Naboo, a "false" threat created by Palpatine to get him into the "Supreme Chancellors Chair". Once Amidala casts her vote and Palpatine is elected, he no longer needs her and would be satisfied if Maul finishes all of them, the fact that Maul is killed means little, Palpatine just has to find a new apprentice (Dooku).


AOTC:

Between TPM & AOTC Palpatine realizes who and what Anikin is and represents to the Jedi and sets things in motion to get Anakin to turn to the Dark Side. Palpatine (Sidious) and Dooku (Tyrannus) are working both sides (of the Trade federation & Senate). The set up to assasinate Amidala in the beginning is not meant to kill her but to show her and the Jedi that her life in in danger for the expressed purpose of getting Anakin & Amidala together. That's why Palpatine immediately suggests Jedi protection, specifically Obi-Wan because he knows Anakin is with him. Palpy knows that by putting them together, Anakin will fall in love with Amidala and this will weaken his relationship with the Jedi & cause him to rebel, not follow instruction, etc. This in made very clear by the dialoge used in the beginning of the movie. Anakin clearly tells Obi-Wan that this is not a Jedi's job, to watch after Amidala, they are there because Palpatine asked them to watch over & protect Amidala. The second attempt is also known by Palpatine (in advance) that it will fail, just as the first attempt, the point of it is three-fold. First, it gets Amidala to go back home WITH Anakin by her side, leading to thier falling for each other. Second, it leaves Jar Jar in charge to be easily persuaded to vote for the army of the republic when the time comes. Third, Jango and ultimately Palpatine know the Jedi will track down Zam and interrogate her(?), Jango follows the chase, waits until the incriminating info is given and then kills Zam. This eventually leads Obi-Wan to find out about the cloned army.


Dooku goes to order the clone army under the name syfo-dias after TPM (10 years before AOTC). Palpatine knows the day will come for war because Dooku is instigating the Trade Fedaration & helping their cause, they know Sidious is in control of the senate because he helped them (Nute Gunray) in TPM. And since no one in the senate/republic knows that Palpatine is Sidious they just see the Trade Federation as a threat. So Palpatine knows the day will come when an Army of the Republic will be "needed" and voted upon, so he set things in motion 10 years ago.

In the Areana battle Dooku knows the Army of clones is coming and even stops the battle to give them the chance to surrender, knowing they will not. He's just buying more time for the clones to show up and attack the Trade Federation's droid armies, that's the point of Palpatine's plot, to start a war, knowing his clones he had made will overwhelm the droid armies and give rise (eventually) to the (his) empire. Dooku's job is basically to double-cross the Trade federation, suckering them into the war.

In the lightsaber duel, Dooku injures Obi-Wan so Anakin will try to save him, he can easily kill both of them but does not, instead he wants to fight Anakin & humiliate him. He wants to show Anakin the only way he will ever be powerful is by turning to the dark side because the dark side is "stronger". He looks down after defeating Anakin, realizing he has just taken a major step in turing Anakin (which will not be realized untill EP III) which means he (Dooku) will eventually being replaced by Anakin. And Dooku does this all for Sidious, his loving master. :)

That's all I can think of know, it seems to follow Sidious's master plan.

stillakid
06-16-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi
First, it gets Amidala to go back home WITH Anakin by her side, leading to thier falling for each other.


Thanks for that. I have one question, which may be an aside to all of this. Why does Amidala go to Naboo to hide? That seems like that last place she should have gone to.

Additionally, some of the pure speculation concerning Ep III, some have asserted that Amidala will give birth on Naboo. Now, of course we don't know much about the details of III, but if Obi Wan (or Yoda) sees the necessity to hide the birth of the twins from the Emperor and Vader, then why have the birth take place in the most likely place in the galaxy?

Like I said, I'm not sure if this ties into the overall plot or if it's just a stupid move on Lucas's part to get some beautiful scenery into the films, but it begs the question be asked.

pthfnder89
06-18-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Thanks for that. I have one question, which may be an aside to all of this. Why does Amidala go to Naboo to hide? That seems like that last place she should have gone to.
Well you have to remember that Naboo has a FAR smaller population than Coruscant. It's a tiny out-of-the-way planet with lots of open land and Amidala knows it very well.

Coruscant on the other hand, is huge with billions and billions of people, millions of droids and enormous buildings everywhere. I think it would actually be easier to kill someone on Coruscant and get away with it than it would be on Naboo.

But lit's mostly just a way for Lucas to put Anakin and Padme alone together so that their romance can blossom.


Originally posted by stillakid
Additionally, some of the pure speculation concerning Ep III, some have asserted that Amidala will give birth on Naboo. Now, of course we don't know much about the details of III, but if Obi Wan (or Yoda) sees the necessity to hide the birth of the twins from the Emperor and Vader, then why have the birth take place in the most likely place in the galaxy?

I don't usually buy into rumours like this. As far as I know there haven't been ANY statements by anyone official that the twins would be born on Naboo so I don't have any reason to think they will.

Nickuss
06-20-2002, 11:39 PM
Guys,
I have been glued to my computer screen reading all of your interesting ideas on this thought. Going back to what Stilla posted about Palaptine's suggestion for Obi-Wan guarding Padme. I agree that he has something up his sleeve. Right as he is talking, it cuts to Yoda who gives a VERY suspicious glance over his shoulder. It's almost as if Yoda smells something fishy, but can't quite put his finger on it.
Even though this is a little off the topic, I have a thought on the birthplace of Luke and Leia. At what point, and under what circumstances do you think that Yoda went into hiding on Dagobah? If you remember in ESB Luke makes a point of telling R2 that Dagobah seems strangely familiar to him. I remember reading once that perhaps Luke was taken as a baby to see Yoda on Dagobah before Obi-Wan delivers him to Tatooine. But why would Obi-Wan do this? Maybe after the Jedi were exterminated, Padme went into hiding with Yoda on Dagobah and the twins were born there? I think that it is assumed that Obi-Wan was responsible for delivering them to their foster parents, and as of now(as far as we know) he was the only one other than Luke who new Yoda was on Dagobah. I know it may sound a little silly, but it's a fun idea to throw around. What do you think?

2-1B
06-21-2002, 12:43 AM
Welcome Nickuss. :)

I don't disagree with you guys that Palps was looking to link Padme with Anakin. I'm just not quite ready to fully embrace it because part of me thinks it could have simply been GL's way of putting them alone together. But I certainly do like the idea that he was behind it . . . and if so then I would have to accept that Palps didn't really want her to die. I think those two aspects go hand in hand.

However, I will say that if there's one thing Palpatine was not behind, it's Shmi's death. I think the story works just fine with her tragic death leading Anakin to the brink, and then having Palpatine capitalize on it. I think that's the point where I separate from the "Palpatine was behind everything" crowd. :)

Obi-Wan-A-Bi
06-22-2002, 05:02 AM
I agree that Shmi's death was an accident. I can find no evidence that would link her death to the Sith.