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DeadEye
06-19-2002, 05:02 PM
And here are the reasons:

1. All clonetroopers in AOTC have British accents...the stormtroopers didn't
2. The clonetroopers in AOTC have accurate shots and can see out of their helmets...stormtroopers can't do either
3. Jango died in AOTC, so the Kaminoans have no more DNA to use...so by the end of the Clone War, all the clonetroopers will probably be dead.

Any other thoughts?

LTBasker
06-19-2002, 05:12 PM
Lucas has his pet digital tech, remember? If he wants the Stormtroopers to be clones, he'll just modify them in the archival editions. :mad:

MikeAndTheBots
06-19-2002, 05:20 PM
Accent depends on who you are with and where you are. If they had different people instruct the troops they would sound different. (btw: that's not british, if I'm not mistaken they were supposed to sound like they were from New Zealand). Plus, maybe if they use Boba the DNA would get messed up since it the quality of a copy is worse if its from another copy.

Beast
06-19-2002, 05:26 PM
Not to mention, it's 22 years prior to ANH. If you move to another country, and are around people with a pequilar accent, you will pick it up after a while as well.

The Stormtroopers in ANH, are pretty good shots. Since they shot and killed all of the Soldiers on the Blockade Runner in ANH. A Stormie in Empire blasted apart C-3PO And a stormie shot R2-D2 as well as Princess Leia in the arm in ROTJ. The only one who really can't see out of the helmet well is Luke. :)

I think some are still clones, but after E3 Palpatine has ultimate power. He can start the Imperial Army and recruit troops. No need for expensive clones any longer. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
06-19-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The only one who really can't see out of the helmet well is Luke. :)

And the dude who bumped his head on the doorway.

DeadEye
06-19-2002, 07:08 PM
Maybe he could see....he just wasn't looking. :)

scruffziller
06-19-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
And here are the reasons:

1. All clonetroopers in AOTC have British accents...the stormtroopers didn't
2. The clonetroopers in AOTC have accurate shots and can see out of their helmets...stormtroopers can't do either
3. Jango died in AOTC, so the Kaminoans have no more DNA to use...so by the end of the Clone War, all the clonetroopers will probably be dead.

Any other thoughts?
Not British accents, but New Zealand accents.

scruffziller
06-19-2002, 07:14 PM
One thing I have found out though is that the storm troopers in the OT were most likely not clones because they just seemed to act too much like regular humans. I assume the clones were superior to their host as far as discipline goes and may not have been affected by Obi Wans mind tricks unlike the stormtroopers who acted rather dopey and were concerned by menial things like "Oh maybe just another drill", something I don't think the clones would probably do, just an assumption. But I have heard from the walking SW encyclopedias that I hang out with have told me that becoming a stormtrooper in the OT had to be achieved through training.

DeadEye
06-19-2002, 07:40 PM
It sure didn't sound New Zealand to me. Sounded plenty British. :D

Anyway, the clonetroopers are inferior to Jango, at least mentally: their brains were modified to be very obedient.

scruffziller
06-19-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
It sure didn't sound New Zealand to me. Sounded plenty British. :D

Anyway, the clonetroopers are inferior to Jango, at least mentally: their brains were modified to be very obedient.
Well the logic that I am using on that is that the actor who played Jango was from New Zealand and so was Boba.

MikeAndTheBots
06-20-2002, 12:03 AM
I think someone here posted once that maybe the higher ranked ST are clones where as the regualr STs are guys who just know blasters and white armor.

saladin
06-20-2002, 12:14 AM
it will be left to the will of lucas, God help us.

karateyoda17
06-20-2002, 01:38 AM
I think clone troopers will survive the clone war...being its named after them. Ofcourse alot will be killed, but remember there were alot of jango "fetus's" on kamino too that need growing up. I think its like this, the clone trooper armor will evolve into stormtrooper armor (maybe they will findout its more effective) but the empire will also recrute people to be stormtroopers, and obviously officers along with the clones. It would just make more sense that way if you ask me.

LTBasker
06-20-2002, 01:57 AM
Doubt it. It seemed like the Clone armor was very durable and made with very strong alloys, but the Stormtrooper armor seemed to be more cheaply made and just there for intimidation. Considering that Clone Trooper that fell in the sand seemed to survive, a Stormtrooper's armor would probably vaporize from something like that. ;)

2-1B
06-20-2002, 04:14 AM
Does Jango sound British to you? He must, since the same guy did the voice of the clones.

Stormtroopers are clones,
I don't buy the idea that since we see stormies of varying heights that they were not cloned . . . I doubt George was concerned with that way before he could use the exact same digital model for every clone character.

Stormtroopers don't sound the same because he hadn't gotten around to using Temuera Morrison to voice all of them.

When Ben talks about Stormies being weak minded, that sure hints at the "docile" clones willing to take any order. :)

LTBasker
06-20-2002, 06:33 AM
Nah, it just means they're dumb enough to follow an old guy with the "force" who sits on a "throne" all day. ;)

DeadEye
06-20-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by karateyoda17
remember there were alot of jango "fetus's" on kamino too that need growing up.

The fetuses would take ten years, and the children Boba's age would take five. And the Clone Wars end in Ep3, which is four years later.

MikeAndTheBots
06-20-2002, 11:01 AM
on the armor/guns issue: The CTs seem to have better, more powerful guns. That may help with their accuracy somehow. Now, the STs probably all got the armor and standard issue gun since the Emporer didn't want to spend too much. There's power in numbers, regardless of each of the individual's abilities.

karateyoda17
06-21-2002, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by DeadEye


The fetuses would take ten years, and the children Boba's age would take five. And the Clone Wars end in Ep3, which is four years later.

See, so there wil be some 100% that survive after the clone war, because they didnt really fight in the clone war...I think they turn into stormy's.

Darkross
06-21-2002, 10:59 AM
Stormtroopers aren't clones...since they aren't all the exact same height either. Some are taller than others...but for the most part they are generally the same height. Also...from the Tales of Mos Eisley Cantina...(I think) states that General Maximillian Veers used to be a Stormtrooper who rose up through the ranks and became General of the Imperial Army. This would also be true of other troopers too...Davin Felth. Also...in Episode II, the Kaminoans stress that the clones are genetically enhanced with little independant thinking (I can't remember exactly).

As far as running out of DNA from Jango...you would think that they (the Kaminoans) would have made sure they would have ample supply...for insurance purposes...where Jango is / was a bounty hunter (dangerous work), might not come back from one of his profitable trips. If that were the case...then the Kaminoans would have to find another donor and start the whole cloning process all over. Also from what I understand about cloning....you don't need very much DNA to create a clone.

Yoda'sMaster
06-23-2002, 02:53 AM
well said

Obi-Don
06-23-2002, 04:39 AM
I tend to believe that after the clone wars that most will be killed. As palpy has complete power he can draft and force people to join. Some may join because of the wanting a better life than what they may have. Although being a walking target wouldn't be much of one. Some may join because they agree with the Empire. Not all the galaxy was enfavor of the rebles.

DeadEye
06-23-2002, 07:58 AM
I think this explains it all:

Darth Vellner
06-26-2002, 07:19 PM
The Answer has been in front of us the whole time ......

StormTroopers are clones of clones therefor they are copies of copies the same but not quite as good some are not to smart some are not the same size..clumzy..not to good of aim...ect
.....also it would be cool to see clones in episodes 4 and mabe 5
but just a few in the back ground eh..........:stupid:

jjreason
06-30-2002, 12:32 AM
The key to unlocking the mystery of the Clonetroopers/Stormtroopers? The helmets. Clonetrooper helmets look like Jango's helmet. Stormtrooper helmets look like Darth Vader's helmet. Simple. The Stormtroopers are clones of Anakin, dumbed down though gene-manipulation. Cloning Ani would lead them to being more force-controllable. Love me or hate me, Im a genius!

DeadEye
06-30-2002, 08:49 AM
Then how come the stormtroopers have no Force powers?

jjreason
06-30-2002, 02:14 PM
Genetically altered, and they haven't been shown the way. Luke didn't have any either until he was trained.

therock0603
06-30-2002, 05:26 PM
Why is everyone trying to make complicated scientific explanations for why the stormtroopers and clonetroopers have different accents? Maybe it's just that the movies are 25 years apart and they used different people. Hmmm....that's simple and is the right answer.

therock0603
06-30-2002, 05:30 PM
And maybe the reason the stormtroopers are so much crappier than the clonetroopers could be that they were bad guys in the first movies and so they had to have bad aim (otherwise they would have killed all the main characters). In AOTC they were good guys, so who's gonna like a whole army of good guys who can't hit anything. And they had thousands, maybe millions, of early stage clones in AOTC. In Episodes 4-6 they'd be ready to fight. They wouldn't have to age them fast.

DeadEye
06-30-2002, 06:50 PM
Believe it or not, your reasoning is simplest and also the most correct! :p

Rogue II
06-30-2002, 08:31 PM
I'm a firm believer that Stormtroopers are not clones.

I imagine the cloning process is expensive and slow, even with the growth accelator. It takes 10 years to produce a clone. (I wonder what the growth accellerator does to the lifespan of the clones)

Palpatine manages to create a great galactic war. He generates a great deal of support from the Republic loyalists. The great feeling of patriotism leads many young men from the Republic planets to join the Army. So, with the new enlistees, the Empire can produce a new soldier in 2 months.

So if you were an Emperor bent on Galactic conquest, would you rather wait 2 or 10 years months for a new recruit?

If you don't believe me, look at history. Things like Pearl Harbor and the attacks of Sept 11 greatly increased enlistment rates for the US Forces.

Not being able to hit a target with a blaster is more of a sign of poor training rather than a genetic flaw. This could support my argument. If the troops were rushed through a basic training course, they wouldn't have a chance to master their weapons.

Here's the thing. The Sandtroopers who attacked the Jawas. the Snowtroopers at Hoth, and the Stormtroopers that took over Leia's ship all did a pretty good job. Those particular groups could have had more experience and better training than the Stormtroopers on the first Death Star.

Of course, we can speculate 'til we're blue in the face. George Lucas is the only one who knows for sure.

therock0603
06-30-2002, 10:26 PM
Well the best person to give a reason why the storms have different accents from the clones would be the casting director :) And as to why they have different aims...like I said in my previous post, bad guys can't have good aim cause then they'd be able to kill off the main characters and the movie would be over. No room for Episodes 2, 3, 5, or 6. Now of course if you're a good guy, you're gonna be a bad, bad man and be able to kill all the bad guys and the audience will love you. No one likes unskilled idiots like Jar Jar.

DeadEye
07-01-2002, 08:18 AM
Well...just get JJB in here and he'd tell you otherwise. ;)

anarky
07-01-2002, 02:37 PM
in aotc, there is no army

then--poof!--there's an army of clonetroopers and the galaxy is at war

while the clonetroopers served the purpose of winning the early battles, it's likely that, with the danger being apparent, an army of normal people was created shortly afterward

and cloning is expensive--more expensive than brainwashing

DeadEye
07-01-2002, 04:35 PM
Of course.
Watch "The 6th Day"...they said each clone cost $1.2 million. :eek:

Exhaust Port
07-01-2002, 11:59 PM
I don't know which side of this discussion is right but looking at your points:


Originally posted by DeadEye
1. All clonetroopers in AOTC have British accents...the stormtroopers didn't

Accents can't be cloned, they are a product of your environment.



2. The clonetroopers in AOTC have accurate shots and can see out of their helmets...stormtroopers can't do either

Accuracy/skill is a product of training and can't be cloned. A person might be more adapt at learning a skill than someone else but that's it. Perhaps the Clonetroopers were better trained as they sat idle for so long waiting to be called up to battle. The stormtrooper were perhaps rushed through training in an attempt to keep the military up to power as the Empire grew.


3. Jango died in AOTC, so the Kaminoans have no more DNA to use...so by the end of the Clone War, all the clonetroopers will probably be dead.

I would guess that the Kaminoans would have an immense supply of Jango's DNA already at their disposal. Since it takes very little material to produce a copiable DNA sample it wouldn't take much to produce a life time supply. Perhaps Jango just gave them a pint of blood every few weeks for those first couple years? Maybe they just keep his hair clippings after each haircut? Its would be pretty easy to get material.

DeadEye
07-02-2002, 09:00 AM
All good arguments. I guess we'll have to wait until Episode III...:D

pthfnder89
07-03-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
All good arguments. I guess we'll have to wait until Episode III...:D

True.

I personally come down on the side of them NOT being clones. It just makes more sense for them not to be. But I can also totally see Lucas deciding that they ARE. Sure it's ludicrous, but when has that stopped him?;)

DeadEye
07-03-2002, 01:04 PM
Exactly. He could always digitize the stormtroopers in the OT and make them all the same height. :D

pthfnder89
07-03-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
Exactly. He could always digitize the stormtroopers in the OT and make them all the same height. :D

Ugh, I hope not!

I would also be really ticked off if he goes back and changes all their voices to Temura Morrisons voice. I like the banter of some of the Stormtroopers in the OT, like the two in ANH who are guarding the Tractor Beam Generator, and talking about girls. :D That one always cracks me up.

LTBasker
07-03-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by pthfnder89


Ugh, I hope not!

I would also be really ticked off if he goes back and changes all their voices to Temura Morrisons voice. I like the banter of some of the Stormtroopers in the OT, like the two in ANH who are guarding the Tractor Beam Generator, and talking about girls. :D That one always cracks me up.

Actually they're talking about a speeder and what the Gonk is going on. ;)

If Lucas decides that Stormtroopers are clones and digitally sets them to the same height and puts a single voice on'em, well I'm not buying that Trilogy set.

One thing the Clone Troopers could become are the Royal Guards. They're highly trained and very loyal, and all appeared to be the same height, plus they never spoke a word. That would be very acceptable. :happy:

anarky
07-03-2002, 01:41 PM
that's a possibility--but what are the royal guards in aotc?

or they could be clones--palpatine's supposedly been keeping their origins secret--hmmm

DeadEye
07-03-2002, 04:41 PM
When were they ever talking about girls? They were talking about something called the VT-16.

Scackmgack
01-05-2003, 01:04 PM
I forget when I saw it, and in what thread, but recently I was perusing the forums and saw a discussion involving stormtroopers not being clones.

My first reaction was, "Are these people joking?" It couldn't be more obvious to me that stormtroopers ARE clones. For one, there is the fact that the armor is practically identical, save the helmets.

For another, there is the similarity in weaponry, particularly evident in the light blaster rifles of the clone troopers (see the Illustrated Guide to Episode II and cross-reference the weapons that are packaged with the Clone Pilots and Deluxe Clone troopers) and the E-11 blaster rifles of the stormtroopers.

For yet another, there is the feared reputation of the Imperial Stormtroopers, that they follow their Emperor's will to the letter with no regard to their own safety - this is precisely the kind of obedience to orders that the Kaminoans engineered into their clones, and what makes them such efficient soldiers.

For yet ANOTHER, all the stormtroopers SOUND the same, exactly like the clone troopers do. When Luke and Han don stormtrooper armor in Ep. IV, they still sound like Luke and Han, not like the other stormtroopers, which eliminates the "voice filter" theory.

At the time I ran across this discussion, I decided not to get involved, until I remembered an article from a fairly recent issue of the Star Wars Insider that should all but end the debate to anyone who doesn't cross the line into ridiculousness by delving into these issues too deeply when the answers are laid out in front of them by the filmmakers themselves.

So, to don my "dork's cap" LOL:

I refer to issue #61 of the Insider, pages 18 and 19, part of the "Inside Attack of the Clones" section entitled "Quartermaster Station." For those who do not subscribe to the magazine or read it regularly, these sections of the magazine go into detail regarding certain sets within the films in question, giving both behind-the-scenes information and "Star Wars Universe" information in little text boxes throughout the photos.

These two pages focus on the quartermaster station wherein the clones are seen marching forward in their body armor and picking up their helmets. In the lower right-hand corner there is a picture of a stormtrooper from the shoulders-up next to a clonetrooper from the shoulders-up, and the following text is in a box beneath it:


"CRUCIAL CONNECTION

'In terms of content,' Pablo Helman [Visual Effects Supervisor] notes, 'this is the only shot in the film that connects the clones to the clone troopers.' The stormtroopers of the classic trilogy had been mistaken for robots by some viewers; here we see unequivocally that the clone troopers are human soldiers inside their inhuman armor, as we watch the men put on their helmets. 'This is a key content point,' Helman says. 'George wanted to make a big deal out of this because of what it establishes.' As usual, Lucas tells his story visually, and this striking shot quickly and effectively conveys its point."


We are being shown the origin of Imperial strength. If you cannot put two and two together, the last film is going to go somwhat like this - the Clone Wars ends, and now the Republic is left with a Clone Army which no longer has any legitimate purpose. Palpatine will then make some announcement along the lines of "In order to prevent this sort of conflict from ever arising again, the Grand Army of the Republic will be stationed throughout the Republic to maintain order." Thus, the Republic becomes a military state, the Empire is born, and the Clone Troopers trade in their Mandalore-style helmets for the fear-inspiring Death's Head design we have all come to know and love as the uniform of the Imperial Stormtrooper.

Per arguments as to the age of the clone troopers disqualifying them from being stormtroopers -

1) If the Kaminoans can speed aging to bring clones to maturity in ten years, why can't they also have altered the genetic code to SLOW aging once the clones reach a certain age?

2) If this was not the case, who is to say that Palpatine did not continue having clones produced throughout the reign of the Empire? With the destruction of the Jedi order who discovered Kamino, the planet's location erased from their central data banks, and Kamino's location so far out on the Galactic Rim, why couldn't Palpatine have continued having clones produced until the fall of the Empire, unbeknownst to anyone?

Stormtroopers are clones. 'Nuff said. If you disagree, refer to issue #61 of the Star Wars Insider, pages 18 and 19, and then go argue with George Lucas about it. He's clearly given us the answer.

- Scack

Darth Trymybestus
01-05-2003, 01:26 PM
the fact that they're all listed as the same height on Star Wars.com and that Leia says to Luke "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" are more giveaways :)

Beast
01-05-2003, 01:35 PM
Wrong forum, but yes it's been debated endlessly around here ever since we heard about the CloneTroopers. The majority of the Stormtrooper ranks are obviously clones, due to the fact that the Kaminoians state to Obi-Wan that a million more are under production.

So even if alot of the original force is killed off during the Clone Wars, the Clone Wars took place from the end of E2 to the beginning of E3. It's 22 years before ANH in E2, and 18 before ANH in E3. We know the Clones grow to maturity in twice normal.

Also we see fetus Clones, and 10 year old Clones on Kamino. The 10 year old ones, need 5 more years to reach maturity. The fetus ones need 10 years to reach maturity. So we get an influx of CloneTroopers being added to the ranks at 17 years before ANH, and 12 years before ANH. Well after the Clone Wars are over, and the Clones now become just a peace keeping force. :)

Of course, Kamino is set to be destroyed this year in Issue 50 of the Dark Horse comic series that is dealing with the Clone Wars. Now, depending on how things play out Palpatine could move the cloning operation to elsewhere. But now we deal with finding a new genetic sample to produce the clones with.

Obviously Jango Fett is dead, so getting a new genetic sample from him is out of the question. And since the Clones helped the Jedi's that murdered his dad, I don't see Boba offering up his DNA for making them. So it's possible to cut costs, Palpatine starts making clones of clones. And since he doesn't have the expertise and exacting standards of the Kaminoians, they aren't as good as the originals.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-05-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Scackmgack
I forget when I saw it, and in what thread, but recently I was perusing the forums and saw a discussion involving stormtroopers not being clones.





Various heights? (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=187862#post187862)

And this is what they all look like (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=197028#post197028)

Biggs didn't want to be drafted into the Imperial Navy (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=188117#post188117)

Assumptions when we watched the OT (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=195814#post195814)

The "proof" is in everyone's surprise (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=196158#post196158)


Clones or not...this is the REAL issue (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=196161#post196161)

JediDBM
01-05-2003, 06:08 PM
No doubt about it, Stormtroopers are all clones, Princess Leia verifys this by asking Luke, "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?" in ANH, but that example has already been given, and so has my other point that they are clones and that is because they all sound alike... So I guess my two cents worth here is pointless, but I do agree they are clones

Teeska Mon Eebon
01-05-2003, 08:46 PM
This thing about voices is crap also becuase the trooper in ROTJ talked in an deep gruff voice, though I could still be some are some aren't.

DarkArtist
01-05-2003, 08:52 PM
WHAT ABOUT KYLE KATARN FROM THE DARK FORCES SAGA> HE WAS A STORMTROOPER.

sith_killer_99
01-05-2003, 10:14 PM
Wow, ease up on the ALL CAPS!!!

Anyway, it was my thread that states Stormtroopers are not clowns clones.hehehe

I made several points including ones to cover the "short for a Stormtrooper" line. Which was most likely a throw away line anyway.;)

I like to play devils advocate from time to time, and this is one of my favorite issues to talk about.

There are a lot of factors to think about when discussing this issue.

First of all you must decide if EU applies or not. If it does then Stormtroopers are NOT clones. In the EU cloning was banned at the end of the clone war. Not to mention that Luke states emphatically in the novels that clones feel different than normal people in the force.

If you discount the EU stuff you must discount all of it. To include such things as "Stormtroopers are loyal to the Emperor beyond reason". It just isn't discussed in the movies.

Stormtroopers are different heights in the OT. Thus Leias' line about Luke being "short for a Stormtrooper" implies a minimum height requirement (possibly), it is ambiguous at best. In the US Army, the Old Guard has a strict height requirement of 5ft. 10in. to 6ft. 2in. so it is reasonable.

And yes, Stormtroopers do seem to have different voices in the OT, they are afterall played by different actors and the lines are read by different actors, as was pointed out earlier.

I am not saying it's not possible. I just don't see it as all Stormtroopers are clones. In fact it is quite obvious that the Stormtroopers began with the Clone Army.

But things change. Officers for one. In the Clone Army all soldiers, officers included were clones (hence the different colors and George yet again ties these to another army, the droid army).

However, in the future (OT), officers are clearly not clones. So what's to say that the clones weren't slowly replaced by regular humans, let's face it, they had to be cheaper than cloning a new army every 5-10 years.

In any event, clone or not, we will probably get the answer on screen in the next film.

BTW, if you think this issue is obvious, just look at those who don't believe that Darth Sidious is Palpatine.:eek:

mista_carrot
01-05-2003, 11:06 PM
George Lucas himself has alluded to the Stormtroopers being clones. If you listen to the commentary on the AOTC dvd, Lucas makes note that Jango hits his head when entering the Slave I, and goes on to say that it was funny because Jango and the Stormtrooper that hits his head in ANH share the same genetic code. End of discussion.

Dar' Argol
01-06-2003, 01:31 AM
Hmmmm . . .. . . . . I'm a little confused here. I'm not quite sure why this was moved to the Gen Disc section:confused:. So, I think I'll drop this in the AOTC movie forum.



*POOF*:D

LTBasker
01-06-2003, 02:16 AM
What does it matter? Everything's all explained now, Star Wars is so small now because theres no mystery left. What's the point of debating it if it's not gonna change anything? See the big difference is that in the 70's, they didn't think Star Wars would be that big of a deal, so it was a story, but now it's just a money magnet franchise for'em. That's the only reason the prequels were made, so really theres no point in debating anymore.

stillakid
01-06-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by mista_carrot
George Lucas himself has alluded to the Stormtroopers being clones. If you listen to the commentary on the AOTC dvd, Lucas makes note that Jango hits his head when entering the Slave I, and goes on to say that it was funny because Jango and the Stormtrooper that hits his head in ANH share the same genetic code.

The "hit on the head" thing was most likely an accident that they didn't have time to reshoot. Nobody is going to convince me that it was done intentionally in 1975-'76 on the set.

So his "use" of the same kind of thing for Jango and the clones is again a brand new invention of his in this century for the Prequels. Much like the Midichlorians and Qui Gon Jinn. I believe that not one of those elements existed prior to the mid-1990's.


Originally posted by mista_carrot

End of discussion.

Says who? :) You haven't proved a thing.

mista_carrot
01-06-2003, 06:03 PM
Well, it's obvious to me that George Lucas has decided that most Stormtroopers are clones, what he used to think and what we want to think really don't matter anymore. I'm pretty sure myself that GL didn't have a firm grip on what exactly the Stormtroopers were when he wrote ANH--he just knew they weren't robots, and I'm sure he just made up the midechloreans when he was writing TPM. Just because you believe that these ideas didn't exist before the mid-90's doesn't mean they aren't true now. Of course the hit of the head in ANH wasn't on purpose, but Jango's hit on the head was.
I would rather the Stormtroopers not be clones, but it is appearant to me that GL thinks that they are now, so just try to accept it as best you can.
As for midechloreans-let's face it, he had to show that Anakin was very strong in the force, and since he couldn't have little Ani in a lightsaber duel or using force lightning, he had to make up something measurable to make it easier to show his strength in the force. I don't like the midechlorean thing, but it was a necessary evil in order to easily show that he was above and beyond every other jedi.

stillakid
01-06-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by mista_carrot
Well, it's obvious to me that George Lucas has decided that most Stormtroopers are clones, what he used to think and what we want to think really don't matter anymore. I'm pretty sure myself that GL didn't have a firm grip on what exactly the Stormtroopers were when he wrote ANH--he just knew they weren't robots, and I'm sure he just made up the midechloreans when he was writing TPM. Just because you believe that these ideas didn't exist before the mid-90's doesn't mean they aren't true now. Of course the hit of the head in ANH wasn't on purpose, but Jango's hit on the head was.
I would rather the Stormtroopers not be clones, but it is appearant to me that GL thinks that they are now, so just try to accept it as best you can.
As for midechloreans-let's face it, he had to show that Anakin was very strong in the force, and since he couldn't have little Ani in a lightsaber duel or using force lightning, he had to make up something measurable to make it easier to show his strength in the force. I don't like the midechlorean thing, but it was a necessary evil in order to easily show that he was above and beyond every other jedi.

It's fairly clear that the Podracing was meant to be that tangible proof. But it became more of a Rube Goldberg device to get the heroes off the planet than anything else.

But George was just lazy in writing the story. There was a better way to show that Anakin was strong with the Force:

(I pulled this from one of my older posts on the subject)

Part I: The story element
For unknown reasons, GL dropped the Midichlorian element into the saga. Perhaps it was to help give scientific explanation to the Force or something else. We don't really know without sitting George down to ask him about it. However, what it did do, whether he intended it this way or not, was to give a concrete story explanation to Qui Gon (and more importantly, to the audience) that Anakin had Force potential. That seems to be the primary story-"consequence" of that particular element. Before I go any further, can we agree on that? If not, then everything that follows is for naught.

Part II: The problem with Midichlorians
1. It's a lazy writer's trick. Instead of showing the audience (and Qui Gon, who represents the audience) that Anakin has Force potential, the characters are made to merely tell us. Filmmaking is an inherently visual medium and is best utilized by illustrating through images a story point. Take your favorite films and turn the sound down. If you can tell what each scene is trying to convey without the crutch of dialogue, it can be considered a well written, blocked, and photographed story. TPM relies far too much on dialogue to drive the story forward when actions would do far better. So when Qui Gon gets a Midichlorian count on Anakin and tells us that the boy is special, we have only his word to go on and no real proof that we ourselves can see.

2. If visualization was the only problem, then it wouldn't be so bad. A little like tv, but not unwatchable. However, with 3 films already laying the groundwork for what the story is about and how "things" work, introducing an element like Midichlorians disrupts the established foundation. Luke Skywalker was presented as an average farmboy, someone that humans on planet Earth could empathize with. That statement is vitally important. Most really good stories have characters that the audience can truly relate to. We've been through all this before, as Jar Jar says, ad infinitum, but since you asked. It's the Batman vs Superman conundrum. "We" can never be Superman, no matter how hard we try. He has superpowers beyond our reach. Batman is more accessible. He has money for sure and really good muscles and fighting techniques. Not easy to attain, but certainly attainable for nearly anyone (if they wanted it bad enough). When ANH was released in 1977, the Luke we grew to like was Batman. Ordinary kid who grows up to conquer the Universe beyond all odds. The new supercharged Midichlorian Luke, has an advantage that "we" can never have, no matter how hard we try. So, while not necessarily a direct "contradiction" in terms, the addition of Midichlorians alters this saga from something universally appealing to something more, well, nerdy, like Dungeons and Dragons. Instead of relying on internal fortitude and perserverence, the characters now have the crutch of tiny helpers akin to the magic crystals in countless fantasy genre stories. Now you might argue that the Force is an element in the same vein. While that might be true, the difference is that the characters in this story don't (or didn't) need a special "key" to access it. Anybody could do it. Just as with athletic ability or mathematical or what have you, it might have been more difficult for some, but anybody could do it. Now, with the necessity of a "key" (Midichlorians or magic crystals or magic jewlery), only the truly "blessed" can attain this "superpower."

Part III: The fix.
Easily done. Drop the Midi references. When Qui Gon (actually Obi Wan should do this, but that's a different issue ) and Co. go to Anakin's cabana, he shows everybody his droid in progress. Anyone with kids knows that they can get pretty excited, especially when showing off something that they've created on their own. So in his haste, he realizes that the eye is missing. Without looking he reaches behind him for a tool on the workbench. It is just an inch or so away, but out of reach all the same. The tool slides into Anakin's hand! No one notices, except Qui Gon. It's so fast that even the audience might miss it...but we don't and neither does the Jedi master. Anakin doesn't even realize it. With that simple action we learn everything we need to know about Anakin's Force potential far more effectively and efficiently than before.



But yes, we have to live with whatever GL throws up on the screen. However, just because he says it's so, doesn't mean that there aren't inconsistencies created. It's up to him to avoid those issues or close them up in Episode III. He's only got one more chance left.

mista_carrot
01-06-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
It's fairly clear that the Podracing was meant to be that tangible proof. But it became more of a Rube Goldberg device to get the heroes off the planet than anything else.

True, but for me it wasn't enough. For all I know, every Jedi can pilot a podracer....maybe even some younglings.


But George was just lazy in writing the story. There was a better way to show that Anakin was strong with the Force:

(I pulled this from one of my older posts on the subject)

I agree with all that for the most part, but I think Luke is more like a Superman who doesn't know he's a superman. He's definitely had the power of the force in him all along and that's why Old Ben decided to take him. Think about it: if some other kid found R2, Old Ben would have just taken the droid and told the kid to scram. He took Luke because he knew that he had the potential to defeat Vader and the Emp. True, Luke may have seemed like a Batman when the AHN came out, but ESB and ROTJ changed that without the help of the new trilogy.
As for fixing the midichloreans, the problem is we don't know enough about what Jedi can and can't do to know what is phenomenal and what is just normal. A simple force-pull wouldn't be enough for me to see Ani as special, especially since Qui-gon and Obi-Wan do it constantly throughout TPM. I would have liked to see the force being used in a whole new way; that is what would have got me thinking that Ani is special without the midichloreans. Qui-gon could have been amazed, as would the audience since we've never seen it before. I don't think it should be something subtle because if the audience misses it, then why should they believe he's special? It should be something even the average viewer (who may not be a huge Star Wars fan) will be able to see, and Qui-Gon's reaction will tell them that it's special.
Other than those points, I agree with you; midichloreans were the least imaginative way of explaining Anakin's potential, but to me it feels like it belongs somehow...with the rest of the crud that is TPM.



But yes, we have to live with whatever GL throws up on the screen. However, just because he says it's so, doesn't mean that there aren't inconsistencies created. It's up to him to avoid those issues or close them up in Episode III. He's only got one more chance left.

Agreed.

Adam
01-07-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
First of all you must decide if EU applies or not. If it does then Stormtroopers are NOT clones. In the EU cloning was banned at the end of the clone war. Not to mention that Luke states emphatically in the novels that clones feel different than normal people in the force.

The clones in the Thrawn trilogy feel different because they were grown without the force around them, using those lizard things who's-name-I-will-not-attempt-to-spell. Normal clones wouldn't feel anydifferent. Four instance Dorsk-82 (or 81.). Luke never mentions, even in inner monologue, that Dorsk has a strange presence in the force. So Thrawn clones are force-weird because of the yslalamir I think they're called. Yeah, that's the ticket! :stupid:

I hate to bring that up, because I too don't think that ALL Stormtroopers are clones.

stillakid
01-07-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by mista_carrot
A simple force-pull wouldn't be enough for me to see Ani as special, especially since Qui-gon and Obi-Wan do it constantly throughout TPM. I would have liked to see the force being used in a whole new way; that is what would have got me thinking that Ani is special without the midichloreans. Qui-gon could have been amazed, as would the audience since we've never seen it before. I don't think it should be something subtle because if the audience misses it, then why should they believe he's special? It should be something even the average viewer (who may not be a huge Star Wars fan) will be able to see, and Qui-Gon's reaction will tell them that it's special.

I'll agree with you there. But I have no idea what other thing he could have done to distinguish himself. As a stand-in for that unknown, I do believe that the quick and subtle approach would have worked and been far more palatable for the audience than Midichlorians. At least we wouldn't have been scratching our heads and going, "Huh?"