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View Full Version : Was Qui-Gon wrong about MidiChlorians on purpose?



JediTricks
06-22-2002, 02:55 AM
I have a theory or two... ;)

You'll have to pardon me while I borrow from my post in another thread: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=108324#post108324

That theory breaks down like so:
------
Midichlorians do not exist in my view of the Star Wars universe, PERIOD. Until Lucas makes them solid as a rock in Ep 3, they can just be explained away in my mind as "Qui-Gon was wrong". In fact, a large number of the things in Ep 1 can be explained that way.

But this midichlorian thing works better and even has some back up on the official site, so pardon me while I build a theory on why Obi-Wan wouldn't mention Qui-Gon or Midichlorians to Luke (beyond the facts that neither existed until 20 years after the first Star Wars film was born).

My belief is that midis are not symbionts that help one communicate with the Force, rather their numbers are a byproduct of having the Force, like a high white bloodcell count is a byproduct of having an infection.

Qui-Gon Jinn was wrong about that, and he may have been wrong about "The Living Force", this is where the official site comes in: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/index.html
"A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council... His challenging views were often echoed by his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn..."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/eu.html
"Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners, though his ultimate loyalty was not to the structured protocols of the Jedi order, but rather to his own intuitions and ideals."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/
"Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council."

If Qui-Gon is proven to be wrong about the Living Force -and- about Midichlorians in the eyes of Obi-Wan, then perhaps he would cast off the teachings that Qui-Gon gave him as his padawan master. This would leave only one true Jedi teacher in his life, Yoda.

Sure it's a bit thin right now, but when the prequels are done, this is how I will see it. It's a huge juggling act all to clean up what I perceive as mistakes that Lucas made, but it'll be my way of plodding through the least-necessary film in the saga.
-----END

That was my theory a week ago, and today on the official Star Wars site is a big addition on the Jedi order, stemming from updates concerning AOTC. One piece of it seems to support my statements above:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thejediorder/index.html
"Jedi candidates are detected, identified and taken into the order as infants. One method of detection is through blood sampling -- those with great Force potential often have high midi-chlorian counts in their bloodstream."

This is a statement that is not very committal about the midis. It allows for the possibility that not all Jedi candidates have high midichlorian counts in their blood, and it also allows for ALTERNATE methods of Jedi candidate detection altogether. This suggests that there is a LOT of room for Qui-Gon's beliefs in Ep 1 to be absolutely off the mark while still maintaining a sense of continuity within the prequels. Not only that, but it appears as if there is a quiet movement from LFL to distance the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn from "the Force" - could this have been Lucas' intention all along, to throw us such a big curveball with midis that we wouldn't see that he was using them as a red herring, a smokescreen?

Obi-Don
06-22-2002, 04:06 AM
I think it was a mistake all together to even put it in the movie at all. Me , I just tend to not pay it any attenion and forget about.

I do like the info that you have posted,JT. The idea or theory you brought to this post sounds pretty good.

chewie
06-22-2002, 11:24 AM
Yeah, I would like Qui-Gon to be wrong, but he put Anakin's blood through a midichlorian counting machine. If it was just talked about as word alone, it wouldn't have really matteted, but the fact that a "scientific" device was used to measure Anakin's midi blood count must mean something to the jedi. Even Obi-Wan remarked at the counting device's readout.

LTBasker
06-22-2002, 12:32 PM
Qui-Gon was just a crazy old man. Tomorrow I want you to take the Lucas droid and get it's prequel memory wiped.

darthvyn
06-23-2002, 03:10 PM
tricks, man, i agree with you. while i am not a detractor of midichlorians, i believe you have a very sound theory. it sounds like a very good scientific debate... are midichlorians the by-products, or the cause of force sensitivity?

i still like scientific explanations of spirituality, which is why i didn't mind the midichlorians anyway, but i really like your theory.

as for the "midichlorian counting machine," i don't think it was expressly that. i think it was just a blood level counter, like something that counts the levels of red and white blood-cells, platelets, and such. anakin's blood was higher in midicholorians, just like my friend went to give platelets and it turned out she had twice the amount she should, so they drained her for twice as long...

saladin
06-23-2002, 06:34 PM
i refuse to belive in them.

darthvyn
06-24-2002, 10:42 AM
Duct Tape...the Force it is like. Both a light side and a dark side it has. Binds the universe together it does!

THAT'S really funny!!! lmao!

scruffziller
06-24-2002, 04:56 PM
Yes because he tells Aninkin that he is checking his blood for infections.

Lman316
06-24-2002, 05:46 PM
In a discussion/debate with this forums' own Stillakid, I too brought up the notion that Qui-Gon was wrong. However, I didn't really say it like that, but rather that it was Qui-Gon's own point of view...that's how he saw it, and not necessarily how everyone else saw it. I also said that perhaps in Episode 3, Obi-Wan would learn of something Qui-Gon did and it would ruin Obi's opinion of his late Master. If his opinion was somehow tarnished, Obi wouldn't bother to mention him to Luke, as he himself (Obi-Wan) wouldn't have viewed Qui as his real Master, anyway - or something like that. That is kind of like what you're saying, JT. That Obi-Wan wouldn't believe in Qui's theories and he'd just reject them.
Hopefully, we'll find out. I have great faith in the boy...er..Lucas, and I think he has something great planned for Episode 3. I think he will surprise a lot of people on this one.

End :).

JediTricks
06-24-2002, 11:17 PM
I'm glad to see my concept got across fairly well, even if not everybody agrees. I also thank darthvyn who clarified the "midichlorian count" issue very nicely.

Lman, I'm sorry if I didn't credit you, I am not sure I've ever seen the posts you are talking about, but I think if Lucas uses it, we can both agree to let him take the credit. ;)

darthvyn
06-25-2002, 12:10 PM
we still don't know exactly where the midi's reside, whether they are cells, or things inside the cells... i still think they are inside the cells, as they sound reminiscent of both mitochondria, the energy producers in animal cells, and chloroplasts, the energy producers in plant cells.

i do like the idea that a jedi is biologically in tune with the force. it's not like the midi's are sentient or anything... you could argue that our red blood cells are just organisms that help us feed oxygen to other cells. in this same vein, (no pun intended... but, it's still there...) midi's are organisms that help a jedi, or sith, or any force adept, to communicate with the force. both types of "organism" have only a simple job, and thus we think of them as a part of a bigger organism, us. really all we are is a mish-mash of different smaller organisms in a symbiotic relationship that creates all the processes of a larger system, culminating in the organism we know as a human being. the red blood cell doesn't say, "hey, this guy needs oxygen, so i'll go get it from his lungs, and bring it to his capillaries..." it is just biologically constructed to do so. as are the midi's. they are just biologically constructed to give the organism on a whole a sensitivity to the force, or at least that's the common perception among most jedi. meanwhile, in tricks' theory, qui-gon's way-out-there belief is that the midi's are sort of sentient, and thus are our bridge to the force, that without their conscious effort, "we" aren't sensitive to the force. i like this thread. i really like spiritual and scientific debates. if i hadn't gone to art school, i would have probably become some sort of biologist, i always did want to be a paleontologist. i just watched all the jurassic park movies in the last week, and i got that pang again. yes, even III. i like it.

Lman316
06-25-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I'm glad to see my concept got across fairly well, even if not everybody agrees. I also thank darthvyn who clarified the "midichlorian count" issue very nicely.

Lman, I'm sorry if I didn't credit you, I am not sure I've ever seen the posts you are talking about, but I think if Lucas uses it, we can both agree to let him take the credit. ;)

Hey, no problem. I'm not saying you stole it from me or anything. I just didn't see yours before and you didn't see mine. However, I did see your other theory on Qui being Anakin's father, and I like that one :D.
And yeah, I think we could both let our respective egos go and give ole Georgy the credit on this one. Even though he stole my whole "chosen one" idea too, but I guess I can let that one slide as well :p.

End :crazed:.

JediTricks
06-26-2002, 04:00 AM
darthvyn, that is a heck of a post. I see what you mean, it seems like it could be applied to the concepts of various mythologies as well, the concepts of humours, gods' powers over people, etc., being more accurate (or less, depending on your point of view) than currently accepted. Of course, part of the problem with things like ancient Egyptian sciences are when points of view are misinterpretted or expanded upon by others until the original concepts are dilutted.


Lman, I was kidding with ya, though I think you should sue Warner Bros for ripping off your idea of "The One" with "The Matrix", then sue Lucas. :D

I don't want to repost my much-less grounded "other" theory here because, let's face it, it's pretty dang thin and I think it'd probably water down the main theory on this thread. ;) But I am glad you dig it. :cool:

darthvyn
06-26-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
darthvyn, that is a heck of a post. I see what you mean, it seems like it could be applied to the concepts of various mythologies as well, the concepts of humours, gods' powers over people, etc., being more accurate (or less, depending on your point of view) than currently accepted. Of course, part of the problem with things like ancient Egyptian sciences are when points of view are misinterpretted or expanded upon by others until the original concepts are dilutted.

yeah, like, only a few hundred years ago, we were sure insanity was possesion by demons. and that you were tired because you had excessive mucous. who knows, in a few more hundred years, we might look back and say, "i can't believe they thought that cancer wasn't alien eggs..."

actually, i like the link to cancer that "princess mononoke" makes. that cancer is actually the manifestation of all the evil that people do. that the evils of the world create this thing that eats away at the insides of your body, corrupting it from the inside out. it's symbolic of man-made pollution, creating carcinogens and the like. told you i like spiritual science...

BoShek
06-26-2002, 10:21 PM
To me the Midichlorians are just a way for the Jedi to test youngsters to see how strong they are in the force. How would you know if a baby could be a Jedi? They wouldn't levitate or float thier bottle across the room to the crib!

Jayspawn
06-27-2002, 01:19 AM
I don't think that Qui-Gon was 'really' wrong. I don't think that he would say something wrong to Anakin on purpose. Maybe he explained it differently to Anakin so he could get a basic concept.

I believe Lucas felt he had to explain 'The Force' in scientific terms instead of it just existing. Because Lucas was, introducing Star Wars to a few new generations. Perhaps 'The Force' just existing wouldn't be believable to someone just seeing a Sat Wars movie for the first time.

I think that Star Wars Fans on a whole can already understand the force. I think that Ben Kenobi defines it best...."Now the force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together."

darthvyn
06-27-2002, 09:57 AM
well, it's not so much that qui-gon is "wrong" so much as he just has a different point of view than most jedi on the significance of midis. this thread also isn't saying he's lying to anyone in particular (anakin) about them, this is just what he believes. he feels that they are sentient microscopic life forms that help us communicate with the force, this is known, according to the passages from starwars.com that tricks linked, as the "living force" theory. qui-gon is a student of the living force, a bunch of ideals that causes friction with the jedi council, who have other ideas on the force, and the midis. apparently, general conception of the midis is that they are a good gauge as to how force sensitive an individual is... just like the amount of anti-bodies in your blood stream is an indication of how good your immune system is. he's not "wrong," or at least, not yet, he just has a different theory.

RooJay
06-27-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I have a theory or two... ;)

You'll have to pardon me while I borrow from my post in another thread: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=108324#post108324

That theory breaks down like so:
------
Midichlorians do not exist in my view of the Star Wars universe, PERIOD. Until Lucas makes them solid as a rock in Ep 3, they can just be explained away in my mind as "Qui-Gon was wrong". In fact, a large number of the things in Ep 1 can be explained that way.

But this midichlorian thing works better and even has some back up on the official site, so pardon me while I build a theory on why Obi-Wan wouldn't mention Qui-Gon or Midichlorians to Luke (beyond the facts that neither existed until 20 years after the first Star Wars film was born).

My belief is that midis are not symbionts that help one communicate with the Force, rather their numbers are a byproduct of having the Force, like a high white bloodcell count is a byproduct of having an infection.

Qui-Gon Jinn was wrong about that, and he may have been wrong about "The Living Force", this is where the official site comes in: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/index.html
"A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council... His challenging views were often echoed by his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn..."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/eu.html
"Dooku had studied the ways of the Force for almost eight decades, becoming one of its most powerful practitioners, though his ultimate loyalty was not to the structured protocols of the Jedi order, but rather to his own intuitions and ideals."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/quigonjinn/
"Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council."

If Qui-Gon is proven to be wrong about the Living Force -and- about Midichlorians in the eyes of Obi-Wan, then perhaps he would cast off the teachings that Qui-Gon gave him as his padawan master. This would leave only one true Jedi teacher in his life, Yoda.

Sure it's a bit thin right now, but when the prequels are done, this is how I will see it. It's a huge juggling act all to clean up what I perceive as mistakes that Lucas made, but it'll be my way of plodding through the least-necessary film in the saga.
-----END

That was my theory a week ago, and today on the official Star Wars site is a big addition on the Jedi order, stemming from updates concerning AOTC. One piece of it seems to support my statements above:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thejediorder/index.html
"Jedi candidates are detected, identified and taken into the order as infants. One method of detection is through blood sampling -- those with great Force potential often have high midi-chlorian counts in their bloodstream."

This is a statement that is not very committal about the midis. It allows for the possibility that not all Jedi candidates have high midichlorian counts in their blood, and it also allows for ALTERNATE methods of Jedi candidate detection altogether. This suggests that there is a LOT of room for Qui-Gon's beliefs in Ep 1 to be absolutely off the mark while still maintaining a sense of continuity within the prequels. Not only that, but it appears as if there is a quiet movement from LFL to distance the teachings of Qui-Gon Jinn from "the Force" - could this have been Lucas' intention all along, to throw us such a big curveball with midis that we wouldn't see that he was using them as a red herring, a smokescreen?

I'll bite. However, what purpose would it serve for Lucas to have thrown in midichlorians as a red herring? As anyone who has actually listened to anything I've had to say on the subject knows, I would like nothing more than for Lucas to be able to buy his way out of the concept of midichlorians. In spite of the fact that I can absolutely see how they can easily fit in with my understanding of what the Force is and how it works, I actually do not care much at all for the concept, and would LOVE to see it go away. I even see your theories as a somewhat distantly possible means of doing this. The only problem is that this is how Lucas has decided to explain and quantify the nature of how people in his universe use the Force. I sincerely doubt he would change his mind on the subject regardless of how much I or anyone else would like him to do so. Wouldn't it be keen though?:D

JediTricks
06-27-2002, 10:31 PM
RooJay, I think it might be a set-up for a "Luke, I am your father" sort of blind-siding in Ep 3. Obi-Wan would be completely taken aback, his former master's path would be completely destroyed - probably at the words of Dooku - and Obi-Wan would have to mentally rebuild his outlook on Jedi life and ideals to conform more with Yoda's beliefs - perhaps that could be part of why he abandons the name "Obi-Wan" (though that part's completely hypothetical in my mind, not really part of the main theory).


"The only problem is that this is how Lucas has decided to explain and quantify the nature of how people in his universe use the Force. I sincerely doubt he would change his mind on the subject regardless of how much I or anyone else would like him to do so."
Lucas only explains it through Qui-Gon though, the other characters who are supposed to be "in the know" only talk about Midis in passive terms or simply avoid the issue during conversation altogether. If Lucas intended for Qui-Gon himself to be a red herring and pull the rug out from under the audience, then having the audience interpret Qui-Gon's statements to Anakin and others as "the truth" could be a part of that ploy on the audience and the characters at the same way. He could even have a similar "rebuilding truth" scene in Ep 3 to help smooth it all over a la ROTJ's Obi-Wan to Luke scene.

RooJay
06-27-2002, 11:46 PM
I see your point! Good theory. Of course, this all depends on Lucas being as smart and as good a storyteller as I think he is, and that a lot of people on here are wrong about him. Let's hope so.
By the way, I also tend to subscribe to the theory that there was (and is) much more to Qui-Gon than it may seem. Your theory seems to fit in really well with that line of thinking.;)

JediTricks
06-30-2002, 09:33 PM
One thing that popped into my head yesterday was that this would also be an explanation to Obi-Wan's use of the "point of view" statement in the classic trilogy. If Obi-Wan isn't really a deceitful fellow as I believe he's not, then perhaps Qui-Gon being something of a deception to him would cause him to create the very notion of "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view". Heck, that could be bordering on genuine character development! Come on Lucas, do this! :D

---

Being unsure as to where to put this thread since it seems to be as much about the possibility of Ep 3 as it does of Ep 1, I'm going to COPY this thread into the Ep 3 forum. That means there will be 2 of it, one in Ep 1 and one in Ep 3.

RooJay
07-01-2002, 11:17 PM
I have to admit...I'm liking this idea!

Darth Spectre
07-02-2002, 07:37 PM
There really would be no need for Obi-Wan to mention Qui-Gon to Luke, or any of the other deceased powerful Jedi. He doesn't even mention Yoda, who is still alive and the most powerful Jedi of all. He simply was trying to introduce the Force to Luke in the simplest terms possible and begin his training. Qui-Gon seemed to believe too much in the living force, and what was happening now mattered more than what would happen later. It is that lack of vision which probably prevented him from seeing Anakin for the bad seed he really was (which almost every other Jedi picked up on).

DarthBatman
07-05-2002, 02:40 PM
I'm just going to conveniently forget midiclorians were ever brought up.

stevenmh
07-05-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Darth Spectre
There really would be no need for Obi-Wan to mention Qui-Gon to Luke, or any of the other deceased powerful Jedi. He doesn't even mention Yoda, who is still alive and the most powerful Jedi of all. He simply was trying to introduce the Force to Luke in the simplest terms possible and begin his training. Qui-Gon seemed to believe too much in the living force, and what was happening now mattered more than what would happen later. It is that lack of vision which probably prevented him from seeing Anakin for the bad seed he really was (which almost every other Jedi picked up on).

I agree. There was so much information lost during the Jedi purge, and limited time for Luke to train (and even less for Obi-Wan to be involved in the training), so Obi-Wan shared what he thought was most important to help Luke become a Jedi. It's unlikely that Jedi living 5,000 years before ANH were aware of midi-chlorians, but it didn't prevent them from being Jedi.

I suspect that Luke may learn of midi-chlorians before the end of the New Jedi Order storyline, while searching for a reason why the Vong can't be detected in the Force.

morecow299
07-07-2002, 02:56 PM
i don't think it should have been in the movie at all
the fact that someone can explain the force and how someone has it in two minutes is wrong
the force shouldn't be explained