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darthsal
07-11-2002, 01:41 AM
i have heard to many negative comments about this movie , i knew that episode 1 would never be as good as the original trilogy , but i really loved episode 1 , i liked the droid battle, darth maul, the music and the story. i liked the podrace seen . but i think it was hard for people to admit that it was good . some people really like something but say they dont just so they can be like everyone else, i hate people like that but i love episode 1 and thats all that matters! whos with me!

AdmiralPiett
07-11-2002, 04:33 AM
I liked E1 at the theater, bought it on video, watched it, hated it, saw E2, watched E1 over again, liked it. Go figure. Now it seems like every time I watch it I like it more and more.

The chanting opera music was way too dramatic at times though. They didn't even play that kind of music when Luke fought Vader on Bespin in ESB (which was a much more epic battle than Quigon and Obiwan vs. Maul). Sure, Quigon and Maul die but that fight was just to set up the plot for the rest of new trilogy. That was not THE big battle of the saga and it should'nt have been treated like it was.

As for the story itself, I thought the Quigon/Obiwan vs. Maul scene that I just talked about had great action, I liked the negotiations that Quigon had with Watto, I liked the Droid battle with the Gungans, and I liked all the parts with Palpatine/Darth Sidious. Ian McDiarmid is a great actor! My favorite in the new trilogy so far. Kudos to Ewan McGregor too. He plays a wicked Obiwan. I thought Liam Neeson was ok but it was by no means a groundbreaking performance that he gave. That little Anakin (Jake Lloyd) however is the worst part of that movie. Much worse than Jarjar. It is because of him that I didn't really enjoy the podrace scene and the end space battle where he accidentally blew up the trade federation ship. Too bad the Sixth Sense kid wasn't available for the part. Plus, that whole midichlorian nonsense was unnecessary. Also, Natalie Portman's acting was downright odd. I'm glad she lost the monotone voice for E2.

I know it sounds like I didn't like the movie since my list of positives far underweighed my list of negatives, but I really do like the movie more and more each time I watch it lately. :)
Piett

scruffziller
07-11-2002, 08:36 AM
Yea I think that everyone, even myself, are too hard on GL. We want to capture the magic that we experienced when watching the OT. And when we can't, we blame it on GL. For Pete's sake, he is only human.

DarthSetnom
07-11-2002, 02:54 PM
Well how about a poor casting for the single most important character in the entire Saga? I also noticed people found this movie too annoying, even kids who were supposed to like Jar Jar and some "comedic moments" were like "that's not funny it sucks".

I actually liked it but after the hype was over, i began to feel some things could have been done better. I never liked the fact that the Gungan fight in a CGI field and i miss the model ships that were really blasted in OT but are now replaced by (again) cool looking cgi ships. I dunno i feel something's missing.

And let's not forget "Yippeeeeee!"

billfremore
07-11-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by AdmiralPiett
I liked E1 at the theater, bought it on video, watched it, hated it, saw E2, watched E1 over again, liked it. Go figure. Now it seems like every time I watch it I like it more and more.

I figured that EP2 would make EP1 seem like a better movie.

People have to realize that EP1 was the first chapter in a long story and needed to set up who the characters were.
The story needed to seem happy and super fluffy to illustrate how tragic Anakin's fall really is and how the whole universe goes to hell as the republic slowly converts into the empire.

I'm sure by EP3 more people will look at EP1 differently.

Jonna
07-11-2002, 03:28 PM
Actually, I didn't hate it. I just thought that it was not as good as the first three.

billfremore
07-11-2002, 03:31 PM
But you have to admit you kinda look at it differently after seeing EP2...

Jonna
07-11-2002, 03:32 PM
There is no doubt of that.

Oh ya! Congrats on Sith Lord status.:D

billfremore
07-11-2002, 03:34 PM
Thanks, I feel... more... EVIL!!!:evil:
Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!









Sorry! :D

DarthSetnom
07-11-2002, 07:12 PM
You're right billfremore!!!!

Now that i've seen AOTC, looking back on TPM I wonder why did Lucas have to make such a crappy film.

See the thing is, IF TPM had been the first movie of the six, THEREwould have been no interest in seeing the second one. Why? because there's not an interesting plot to it. The main reason why TPM was successful (or at least not a failure) was because it is probably the most anticipated film there ever was. People who had never heard of SW until Episode 1 did not go nuts over the whole thing. Because for them it was just another movie. And not a very good one.

DarthBrandon
07-11-2002, 07:31 PM
It wasn't great and it wasn't good, but I wouldn't say I hated it, true it's my least favorite of the Saga so far, but some things I did actually like. I didn't like JarJar all that much at first, Watto or even Young Anakin, but as time passes and i've seen ATOC and Epsiode III comes out in 2005, I'm sure alot of us will say Episode I wasn't all that bad at all. It's got it's good points and bad points as do all movies, and if we stop and think about it for a minute George Lucas didn't have to do any prequels. This I think should be considered a gift, cause without George there wouldn't be any more S.W. films, toys etc, for us to discuss. We may not agree with it, but I've seen movies out there that was one hundred times worse than some people say TPM was. I won't mention them, cause there is already a thread about the worst movies on these forums. Anyways just my opinion on the matter at hand.

Darth Nitwit
07-11-2002, 08:22 PM
I liked it! It was not as good as Attack of the Clones, but I liked it.

MFH
07-12-2002, 07:12 PM
Here are some things I HATE about TPM:

1) Midichlorians

2) Jake Loyd

3) Yippeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4) How Amidala talks

5)Midichlorians

Yes, I said midichlorians twice. That's because they're twice as stupid. But, I admit there are some good things in TPM.

morecow299
07-14-2002, 12:17 AM
i hated jar jar, midichlorians, and the fact that the small child who played anakin couldn't act. If they were removed or replaced the movie would have been much better.

DarthBatman
07-14-2002, 01:45 AM
"Yiippeeeeeeee!!!!". Need I say more?

Pendo
07-14-2002, 06:37 AM
I didn't hate TPM, it just wasn't as good as the originals, but I still like it. And I think "hate" is a strong word. I don't "hate" Jar Jar, I just dislike him, I dislike Anakin's "Yippeeeeeeeee", and I dislike the midichlorians, but I wouldn't say I hated anything in it.

PENDO!

stillakid
07-14-2002, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by billfremore


I figured that EP2 would make EP1 seem like a better movie.

People have to realize that EP1 was the first chapter in a long story and needed to set up who the characters were.
The story needed to seem happy and super fluffy to illustrate how tragic Anakin's fall really is and how the whole universe goes to hell as the republic slowly converts into the empire.

I'm sure by EP3 more people will look at EP1 differently.

So being the first in a series is an excuse to make a poorly paced, poorly written story? :confused:

Aside from the contradictions that have been discussed ad infinitum in the forum (Midichlorian's, Qui Gon Jinn),

the acting wasn't great (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd)

and the kiddie poo poo jokes (Jar Jar and the "gas")

didn't mesh with the "serious" attitude of the rest of the movie (any scene with Obi Wan in it).

Many of the advances in plot were forced and would make Rube Goldberg (http://www.rubegoldberg.com) proud (the heroes getting off Tatooine).

There was no attempt at subtlety whatsoever because George now has children and he thinks that they wouldn't "get it" otherwise (Midichlorians to explain how somebody can use the Force).

The dialogue was pretty bad ("Yippee!")

and unmotivated in many places ("What are Midichlorians?" out on the landing platform).

The casting wasn't the best (Liam, Sam, Jake).

Many of the actors had obvious difficulty performing in the vaccuum of a blue screen environment (Sam Jackson, Liam Neeson).

In short, instead of just sitting down to write a good story (like ANH),

he tried to cater to too many divergent audiences (adult fans, adult non-fans, teenagers, little kids, women, NASCAR fans, Star Trek fans, scientists)

by shoe-horning elements together that he felt would "appeal" to them.

jet chan
07-14-2002, 12:39 PM
personally i liked it even when it came out but i'm strange that way:crazed: :crazed: :crazed: i guess i was just happy to see more star wars movies

jet chan
07-14-2002, 12:42 PM
oh and to add to my last reply unless gl starts turning the movies into musicals or full out love stories i will still like them :D :happy: :crazed:

MFH
07-14-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


So being the first in a series is an excuse to make a poorly paced, poorly written story? :confused:

Aside from the contradictions that have been discussed ad infinitum in the forum (Midichlorian's, Qui Gon Jinn),

the acting wasn't great (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd)

and the kiddie poo poo jokes (Jar Jar and the "gas")

didn't mesh with the "serious" attitude of the rest of the movie (any scene with Obi Wan in it).

Many of the advances in plot were forced and would make Rube Goldberg (http://www.rubegoldberg.com) proud (the heroes getting off Tatooine).

There was no attempt at subtlety whatsoever because George now has children and he thinks that they wouldn't "get it" otherwise (Midichlorians to explain how somebody can use the Force).

The dialogue was pretty bad ("Yippee!")

and unmotivated in many places ("What are Midichlorians?" out on the landing platform).

The casting wasn't the best (Liam, Sam, Jake).

Many of the actors had obvious difficulty performing in the vaccuum of a blue screen environment (Sam Jackson, Liam Neeson).

In short, instead of just sitting down to write a good story (like ANH),

he tried to cater to too many divergent audiences (adult fans, adult non-fans, teenagers, little kids, women, NASCAR fans, Star Trek fans, scientists)

by shoe-horning elements together that he felt would "appeal" to them.

I totally agree with everything you said. Especially the part about pleasing NASCAR fans with the podrace.:D

stillakid
07-14-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by MFH


I totally agree with everything you said. Especially the part about pleasing NASCAR fans with the podrace.:D

Thanks. You know, this isn't the first thread of it's kind. I'm really more interested in hearing what was so good about TPM. There are some staunch supporters of the movie on the boards but all I ever hear from them are arguments against the "dislike" points. I'd like to hear some support for the movie that stands on it's own.

I'm going to start up a "what makes TPM so great!" thread right now. :)
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=134150#post134150

MFH
07-14-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Thanks. You know, this isn't the first thread of it's kind. I'm really more interested in hearing what was so good about TPM. There are some staunch supporters of the movie on the boards but all I ever hear from them are arguments against the "dislike" points. I'd like to hear some support for the movie that stands on it's own.

I'm going to start up a "what makes TPM so great!" thread right now. :)
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=134150#post134150

Don't get me wrong, there are good parts in EP1. There are just a lot of bad parts. I think it is easier for most of us to complain about the bad, than to praise the good. I'll go check out your new post. :D

JON9000
07-14-2002, 05:06 PM
The biggest beef I have with TPM is the long dry spells. To much exposition and a trade dispute I still don't get. The chief rule with films is "show, don't tell" and it sure was broken in this one.

Deckard Smith
07-15-2002, 08:49 AM
I enjoyed Episode 1.

I don't think there are any contradictions between the films. A contradiction would be the Original Trilogy pointing out there was no such character as QuiGon Jinn in Obi Wans past. Or that there were no such things as Midichlorians. Simply not mentioning them doesn't make them contradictory.

Is "bad acting" a definable concept with specific examples? If a character is consistently talking in a wooden, stiff performance, doesn't that simply imply that the character is wooden and stiff? I know plenty of people with those characteristics and I wouldn't call them Bad people.

Poo jokes. Kids laugh at them. Some adults do too. You can't say they aren't funny. You can only say they aren't funny to you.

I really couldn't take any of the movie seriously. It's a fun summer film, not a documentary of a ficticious world from a long time ago. Anyone spending hours deconstructing the film in a critical matter is bound to find flaws.

The Rube Goldbergian plot devices depend on what the actual plot is. The ultimate goal of the film was not to escape from Tatooine. It was to introduce Dath Vader to his wife so they could have children and you could have an Original Trilogy.

Subtlety? Is there a precedent for subtlety in the Saga? I'm not suggesting there isn't but maybe some examples to cement your argument.

A single solitary "Yippee." is not warrant enough to criticize the entire screenplay. I'm sure you could find a single solitary line of crappy dialogue in even the best script. Again, you can't imply the script is bad. Only that it's bad to you.

Again it depends on the motivation. Qui Gon is not explaining Midis to Anakin. He is explaining Midis to the audience, a majority of which do not stay hunched over their sourcebooks finding minor conflicts and discrepancies with the same vigor and aplomb as you.

Some casting suggestions would help your argument. I happen to disagree with your casting William H. Macy as Qui Gonn. Ed McMahon as Mace Windu. And Adam Sandler as Anakin. I feel the actors they chose for those roles beat the pants of your choices.

Obvious difficulty? Is there a standard by which you make these statements? Is there a definitive "Liam Neeson blue screen" performance?

I believe he wrote it for one audience. Young boys. Since you are not part of that demographic the movie didn't work for you. You must be a very busy man, hop scotching to all the different forums of films you don't like and e-mailing treatise on why the film failed. When do you sleep?

Don't take any of this as seriously as all that. It was all in jest. But try to remember your opinion is not doctrine. Sometimes you are wrong. It's okay.

Lobito
07-15-2002, 02:12 PM
I dont Hate EP I, as a matter of fact i liked it just as much as the OT movies. Now there are 3 things that i dont liked from the movies:

1.- The Eopie Scene with Jar Jar b4 the race begins...i just dont like that scene.

2.- The Neimodians talking in basic (english) between themselves...they could have done this the same way they did with Greedo or Jabba (using subtitles). I understand that being the Trade Federation and all they should speak lots of languages, but speaking basic between themselves just didnt seem right.

3.- The way Darth Mauld died...

Thats it!! Besides those 3 points TPM rocks!!:D

Eternal Padawan
07-15-2002, 02:27 PM
I can't stand Jira. That old bat is annoying in about a million different ways.

billfremore
07-15-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


So being the first in a series is an excuse to make a poorly paced, poorly written story? :confused:

Aside from the contradictions that have been discussed ad infinitum in the forum (Midichlorian's, Qui Gon Jinn),

the acting wasn't great (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd)

and the kiddie poo poo jokes (Jar Jar and the "gas")

didn't mesh with the "serious" attitude of the rest of the movie (any scene with Obi Wan in it).

Many of the advances in plot were forced and would make Rube Goldberg (http://www.rubegoldberg.com) proud (the heroes getting off Tatooine).

There was no attempt at subtlety whatsoever because George now has children and he thinks that they wouldn't "get it" otherwise (Midichlorians to explain how somebody can use the Force).

The dialogue was pretty bad ("Yippee!")

and unmotivated in many places ("What are Midichlorians?" out on the landing platform).

The casting wasn't the best (Liam, Sam, Jake).

Many of the actors had obvious difficulty performing in the vaccuum of a blue screen environment (Sam Jackson, Liam Neeson).

In short, instead of just sitting down to write a good story (like ANH),

he tried to cater to too many divergent audiences (adult fans, adult non-fans, teenagers, little kids, women, NASCAR fans, Star Trek fans, scientists)

by shoe-horning elements together that he felt would "appeal" to them.

ok, I give up.
You win Stillakid.
Episode 1 was a really bad movie.
As a matter of fact any opinion I have from now on I'm sure will be uniformed and based on my devotion to these films and my 'blind' loyalty to George Lucas.

Thank you for showing me the light.

stillakid
07-15-2002, 04:03 PM
You appear to be responding directly to my post, however you've inncorrectly attributed some things to me that I've never written. :confused:

In any case, you've posed some questions that I assume you would like responses to:


Originally posted by Deckard Smith
I enjoyed Episode 1.

I don't think there are any contradictions between the films. A contradiction would be the Original Trilogy pointing out there was no such character as QuiGon Jinn in Obi Wans past. Or that there were no such things as Midichlorians. Simply not mentioning them doesn't make them contradictory.

True, simply NOT mentioning them does not make them contradictory. That's all well and good except that it isn't the case here. It's not the NOT mentioning part that makes it a problem. It's that specific dialogue from the OT and words from George Lucas interviews painted a picture of certain elements that were directly contradicted by brand new elements in the Prequels. Your argument can be correctly related to, say, the addition of Lando into ESB. Sure, he wasn't mentioned in ANH, but nothing occurred in ANH that would have made Lando be contradictory.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Is "bad acting" a definable concept with specific examples? If a character is consistently talking in a wooden, stiff performance, doesn't that simply imply that the character is wooden and stiff? I know plenty of people with those characteristics and I wouldn't call them Bad people.
This is a fairly subjective topic. For example, when I look at Sam Jackson's line delivery in the Jedi Council sequence, I see bad acting. He looked very uncomfortable trying to spit those lines out and "react" to things that weren't there on set. Now, if his character was supposed to look uncomfortable then I suppose he did a bang-up job, but I kinda doubt that was the case.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Poo jokes. Kids laugh at them. Some adults do too. You can't say they aren't funny. You can only say they aren't funny to you.
True. Same situation as the above topic of acting. But the question was "why don't people like TPM?" :)


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

I really couldn't take any of the movie seriously. It's a fun summer film, not a documentary of a ficticious world from a long time ago. Anyone spending hours deconstructing the film in a critical matter is bound to find flaws..
When a story is this poorly "constructed," it doesn't take too long to see the problems. You may need hours to critique something, but not everyone does. :)


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

The Rube Goldbergian plot devices depend on what the actual plot is. The ultimate goal of the film was not to escape from Tatooine. It was to introduce Dath Vader to his wife so they could have children and you could have an Original Trilogy.
Exactly. The overall goal was not to escape from Tatooine. Agreed. So why was nearly half of the film devoted to that very mission? If the purpose of that half of the film was to put the boy and girl together, it didn't even do that very well. That hour would have been better spent getting them out of there and putting them in a situation where they could actually spend some meaningful time together. At least enough time to make the forced love affair in Ep II make more sense.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Subtlety? Is there a precedent for subtlety in the Saga? I'm not suggesting there isn't but maybe some examples to cement your argument.
Yes. For instance, at the beginning of ESB, as Luke is hanging in the air, he reaches out and gets his saber to fly through the air. No long speeches to anyone about how far his training has come and such. Bam. Just a quick simple act in the midst of the story that told us right away that he has advanced in his training since 1977.

In terms of TPM, specifically what I'm thinking about is erasing the Midi thing from the story entirely and replacing it with a similar act by Anakin in his bedroom. Since the Midi's were apparently invented as a blunt way to "prove" that Ani had Force ability, the same thing could have been achieved with no words or contradictions by having him reach for a tool without looking at it and having it move a couple of inches across the table and into his hand. Very quick. No fireworks or exclamations. He doesn't even really realize that it's strange. However, Qui Gon notices it. Just like that, everyone present would understand everything that GL was trying to get across with those clumsy Midichlorian sequences.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

A single solitary "Yippee." is not warrant enough to criticize the entire screenplay. I'm sure you could find a single solitary line of crappy dialogue in even the best script. Again, you can't imply the script is bad. Only that it's bad to you.
For the sake of brevity, I was only giving examples to the statements with brief summarizing points. I thought that was all too clear. There are plenty of examples, but the "Yippie" has sort of become the unofficial posterboy of TPM.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Again it depends on the motivation. Qui Gon is not explaining Midis to Anakin. He is explaining Midis to the audience, a majority of which do not stay hunched over their sourcebooks finding minor conflicts and discrepancies with the same vigor and aplomb as you.

Now you're getting nasty. ;) By your post count, it appears that you're new here. Take the time to read some of my older posts and you'll see that I've said exactly what you have above. GL is talking to the audience, not the characters.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the discrepencies. And even if I did have the sourcebooks you're talking about, the problems are evident without needing to crosscheck the references. Just pop in the movies and check it out for yourself. That's all the research anyone needs. :)


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Some casting suggestions would help your argument. I happen to disagree with your casting William H. Macy as Qui Gonn. Ed McMahon as Mace Windu. And Adam Sandler as Anakin. I feel the actors they chose for those roles beat the pants of your choices.
I can't reply to this as I didn't make those suggestions above. Add credibility to your discussion by properly crediting your sources. Thank you. :) For the record, I agree with your evaluations of casting choices above. But there were undoubtedly better choices for some of the roles than the ones we got.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Obvious difficulty? Is there a standard by which you make these statements? Is there a definitive "Liam Neeson blue screen" performance?
Almost anytime Liam is addressing Jar Jar is a good example. I never bought into the idea that Liam was talking to another person (alien). I like him as an actor and have seen evidence in other films that he is capable of doing better than what he gave in TPM.

But Sam Jackson is the best example. He too is capable of much more than what I saw in the Jedi Council.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

I believe he wrote it for one audience. Young boys. Since you are not part of that demographic the movie didn't work for you. You must be a very busy man, hop scotching to all the different forums of films you don't like and e-mailing treatise on why the film failed. When do you sleep?
Two things: He is now acting like a studio and as such is making these movies to appeal to the widest audience possible. So, in short, you're dead wrong there.

Secondly, again I'm not sure who you're talking to exactly. "Hopscotching?" "Emailing?" Your argument is taking on a non-sensical and inaccurate tact which is invalidating any credibility you have. The questions you pose up to this point are valid requests for addition explanatory information. This, however, is an (innaccurate) personal attack that I don't understand.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

Don't take any of this as seriously as all that. It was all in jest. But try to remember your opinion is not doctrine. Sometimes you are wrong. It's okay.
I take nothing in jest unless you've made that clear from the start. You've given no reason to believe that it's in jest.

Some of it is opinion, some of it isn't. Much of a person's appreciation of something depends greatly on how much they are willing to ignore or what aspects they choose to accept and concentrate on. When I look at a Warhol photo, I see bad photography, which it is in a technical evaluation. This doesn't necessarily invalidate a person's appreciation for it. They just like it despite the technical flaws. Same with film. I have yet to see a 100% perfect film, though some come very close, but I can still "like" an imperfect movie by choosing to ignore or rationalize away the flaws. So, for some of what I say, they are opinions. Some of the points I (and others!) bring up are fact. So you're wrong about that. But it's okay. ;)

stillakid
07-15-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by billfremore


ok, I give up.
You win Stillakid.
Episode 1 was a really bad movie.
As a matter of fact any opinion I have from now on I'm sure will be uniformed and based on my devotion to these films and my 'blind' loyalty to George Lucas.

Thank you for showing me the light.

Don't patronize me.

No one told you not to like the movie. In fact, I even started another thread so you can extoll the virtues of the film without interference. :) If you love the film so much, head over there and convince us why we should too! :)
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=134150#post134150

What I question is your reason for giving the film the leeway that you do. By saying this:


People have to realize that EP1 was the first chapter in a long story and needed to set up who the characters were.

...you seem to be admitting that the film does have problems but we are supposed to ignore them because every story that starts a greater saga shouldn't be as entertaining as what comes after. The way I see it, the opposite is true, especially in this case where GL wants people to watch these in episode order. The first installment should be just as gripping as the last in order to draw a new audience in. So writing off the slow pace and other problems doesn't make much sense to me.

Eternal Padawan
07-16-2002, 08:20 AM
Whoa! Go on easy on the guy, stillakid. He's new after all.


I kinda dug Episode 1 in a Star Wars-y kind of way.

Adam Sandler? Tee hee.

Deckard Smith
07-16-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Whoa! Go on easy on the guy, stillakid. He's new after all.


I kinda dug Episode 1 in a Star Wars-y kind of way.

Adam Sandler? Tee hee.


I do not need you to defend me, young man.

stillakid, it was all in jest.

I'm still not grasping your "contradictory" theory. Lando not appearing in ANH isn't contradictory because his appearance in ESB came afterward. Correct? So elements introduced in previous films that don't appear in later films is contradictory? If something appeared in ANH that didn't appear in ESB, it NOT being mentioned would be contradictory? Are you basing you argument on the fact that the prequels were made after the originals? Naboo is not mentioned in the OT. Is it contradictory? There is no mention of Sidious in the OT. Is he contradictory? Gungans? Dugs? Podracing? Trade Federation? I am possibly misconstuing your argument for lack of clarity, but ALL of those elements break continuity with the OT because they were NOT mentioned.

And I still haven't heard your casting choices. ;)

stillakid
07-16-2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Deckard Smith


I'm still not grasping your "contradictory" theory. Lando not appearing in ANH isn't contradictory because his appearance in ESB came afterward. Correct?

Yes and no. Yes, because it came afterward, but in terms of what I was trying to say, that isn't the only reason. Specifically, had something been said or done in ANH that had specifically (sorry to use that word twice in a sentence...but hey, George did it! "I wish I could just wish...") made it, um...impossible for a Lando character to exist, then yes, even though ESB was done afterward, then his character would then have been contradictory. But nothing was said or done in ANH to make that the case, so Lando is therefore not contradictory.



Originally posted by Deckard Smith

So elements introduced in previous films that don't appear in later films is contradictory?

No and yes. :) No, they are not contradictory if events described in later episodes aren't, well...contradicted by a new element that comes previous. A new element can be introduced (like Count Dooku, for just one example) so long as his presence doesn't directly contradict something someone says or does in any subsequent episodes (in the timeline).

Yes, a brand new element can be contradictory if it flies in the face of established plot points. For example, we are specifically led to believe in the OT that Obi Wan was trained only by Yoda. (There are oodles of threads discussing this very point, so I won't get into it here). So adding a brand new character into the story at an earlier point in the timeline that now trains Obi who isn't Yoda is a contradiction.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

If something appeared in ANH that didn't appear in ESB, it NOT being mentioned would be contradictory?

No. Unless it's absence directly influenced the established storyline. This is an interesting (and unlikely) situation. Um, I guess an example might be if GL decided that he didn't like Luke in ANH afterall, so he wrote ESB to reflect that Han was the one who blew up the Death Star. Wacky example, I know. The audience would have been left scratching their heads in utter confusion just before asking for a full refund. Well, that's the way I see the addition of Qui Gon and Midichlorians. He's changed the story that he had already established regardless of where it was in the timeline.

Now, having said that, if he goes back into the OT and reedits them to "reflect" the additional elements that he's inventing in the prequel's (the one's that are contradictory), then the "problem" goes away. Then it becomes an issue of "opinion": which version of the OT is better, new or original or special edition? At present, though, this is not an opinion issue, though a certain amount of rationalization could make it appear to be so.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith
Are you basing you argument on the fact that the prequels were made after the originals?

Not really. It's not as simple as that. George made it more difficult on himself by starting in the middle. So he has a responsibility to maintain the continuity of the OT while he goes on back through the timeline.

Aside from the contradictory elements, this also applies to maintaining the "secrets," like Vader's identity and Luke/Leia's familial relationship. But it appears as though Lucas is bent on destroying those too. If we are meant to watch the films in order of production (IV, V, VI, I, II, III), then the secrets thing doesn't matter as much. But if we are meant to watch them in episode order, and he gives away everything by the time Ep III is finished, then it will negatively effect the way the OT is viewed.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith
Naboo is not mentioned in the OT. Is it contradictory?

No, because it's presence does not contradict anything that was established "previously" later in the timeline.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

There is no mention of Sidious in the OT. Is he contradictory?

No, for the same reason.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith
Gungans? Dugs? Podracing? Trade Federation?

No, no, no, no. Same reason.


Originally posted by Deckard Smith

I am possibly misconstuing your argument for lack of clarity, but ALL of those elements break continuity with the OT because they were NOT mentioned.

Yes, I think you are misconstruing the argument. See above. :)



Originally posted by Deckard Smith


And I still haven't heard your casting choices. ;)

Sorry, I didn't know you wanted to hear my ideas. :) Honestly, I don't have any. I just know that some of those performances were subpar of what we've come to expect from those actors. All except Jake, who, granted had some pretty clumsy dialogue to spit out (which I'll blame on GL's poor writing skills), but I liked the second kid (on the DVD extras casting session) much much better than Jake. I'm thinking that GL chose Jake more for his look than for his acting ability. But who knows.:)

darthvyn
07-16-2002, 10:54 AM
I really don't see any contradiction in Midichlorians. Just addition. We didn't know about them before, and now we have a new element in our understanding of the force. You must unlearn what you have learned. Luke has midichlorians in him. It isn't too important to his training that they exist, and as his training was rushed, it was left out. (This is extrapolating from the fact that midis were introduced "before" OT, in terms of timeline. I understand that they weren't actually mentioned in OT because they didn't "exist" in Lucas' mind yet...) However, the "Was Qui-Gon wrong about Midichlorians on purpose" thread has some interesting ideas on the subject...

As for Qui-Gon being a contradiction, I see your argument more here. However, with the inclusion of AOC, we see Yoda instructing a group of Jedi younglings. Is it too far-fetched that Yoda instructed Obi-Wan as a youngling, too? Or should the line in ESB be "The only Jedi master left alive who instructed me..."? Or maybe spirit Ben should just stand there while Luke's freezing to death and tell him about Qui-Gon - "You must seek out Yoda, the Jedi master who didn't want my master Qui-Gon to train Anak... ummmm, Vader, because they didn't like him, but he died at the hand of Darth Ma... uhhh, that's not important, so I ended up training Vader, and he's the guy who killed your dad, remember?" They don't want to tell Luke everything that's going on because, from a timeline point of view, it's need to know info, and Luke don't need to know. Would a pre-prequel trilogy with Yoda instructing Obi-Wan as a youngling make it all better?

stillakid
07-16-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn


Would a pre-prequel trilogy with Yoda instructing Obi-Wan as a youngling make it all better?

Not really, but thanks for asking! :) I believe it was Caesar who brought up the conversation on Dagobah between Spirit (invisible) Obi Wan and Yoda.



YODA
Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father.

BEN'S VOICE
Was I any different when you taught me?




Now, I suppose with a certain amount of wiggle room, you might try to make a case that Youngling Obi Wan was just as "angry" as 16 year old Luke. But I don't believe that case can be made convincingly enough. Maybe if Qui or Yoda had said something to Obi in Ep I or II about "how far you've come since your angry days as a youth" or something to that effect, then maybe it would work. But alas, they didn't.

darthvyn
07-16-2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Now, I suppose with a certain amount of wiggle room, you might try to make a case that Youngling Obi Wan was just as "angry" as 16 year old Luke. But I don't believe that case can be made convincingly enough. Maybe if Qui or Yoda had said something to Obi in Ep I or II about "how far you've come since your angry days as a youth" or something to that effect, then maybe it would work. But alas, they didn't.

well, yoda felt much fear in the YOUNG anakin, so obi-wan could've just as easily been an angry youngling. i've seen plenty of kids that are downright viscious!

as for the "how far you've come..." line above, something to this effect could still be in ep III... i think it would work even better than if it was in I or II, because it's closer to spirit Ben and Yoda conversation, in terms of timeline - it'd be more fresh in your mind than if it was somewhere in I. it would look like a throw-away line if it was in I, whereas if it was in III, and especially in a very intense scene, say in a conversation about anakin, or something, to add weight to it, it would mean more in the context of that story, as well as in the greater continuity.

stillakid
07-16-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn


well, yoda felt much fear in the YOUNG anakin, so obi-wan could've just as easily been an angry youngling. i've seen plenty of kids that are downright viscious!

as for the "how far you've come..." line above, something to this effect could still be in ep III... i think it would work even better than if it was in I or II, because it's closer to spirit Ben and Yoda conversation, in terms of timeline - it'd be more fresh in your mind than if it was somewhere in I. it would look like a throw-away line if it was in I, whereas if it was in III, and especially in a very intense scene, say in a conversation about anakin, or something, to add weight to it, it would mean more in the context of that story, as well as in the greater continuity.

True. I'll agree with that. But that Dagobah conversation isn't the only problem area. The "angry youth" addition is already tenuous, but there's so much more evidence against Qui Gon in the OT that just changing one thing isn't enough.

The bummer is that GL didn't even need the Qui Gon character to tell this story. He just needed somebody to die at the end so that Obi could "exact revenge" or something. Oh well.:rolleyes:

Deckard Smith
07-16-2002, 08:12 PM
Yes, a brand new element can be contradictory if it flies in the face of established plot points. For example, we are specifically led to believe in the OT that Obi Wan was trained only by Yoda. (There are oodles of threads discussing this very point, so I won't get into it here). So adding a brand new character into the story at an earlier point in the timeline that now trains Obi who isn't Yoda is a contradiction.

My memory is fuzzy. I didn't think Obi Wan Kenobi specifically (that word again!) stated that Yoda was his ONLY teacher. Only that Luke should go to Dagobah and be trained by Yoda "...who instructed me." But as I said, my memory is fuzzy and I could be wrong. The same can be said of Midi-chlorians. I personally don't enjoy that aspect of Episode 1, but no one in the OT specifically stated anything about Midis one way or another to contradict the relevations of Episode 1. Boiled down it would be like this.

Contradictory

Episode 1: Qui Gon teaches Obi Wan.
ANH: Obi Wan tells Luke "Yoda and only Yoda trained me. Certainly no one by the name of Qui Gin Jinn had anything to do with my training." And even then , Ben was a notorious liar, so we should treat anything coming out of his mouth with skepticism anyway. ;)

Episode 1: Midi chlorian nonsense = The Force.
ANH: Ben tells Luke "The Force is a magical energy and certainly not little creatures in your bloodstream."

Non-Contradictory

The movies as they stand. If there is no mention of the contradictory elements, there there is nothing to contradict.
At least that's the way I see it.

stillakid
07-16-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Deckard Smith


My memory is fuzzy. I didn't think Obi Wan Kenobi specifically (that word again!) stated that Yoda was his ONLY teacher. Only that Luke should go to Dagobah and be trained by Yoda "...who instructed me." But as I said, my memory is fuzzy and I could be wrong. The same can be said of Midi-chlorians. I personally don't enjoy that aspect of Episode 1, but no one in the OT specifically stated anything about Midis one way or another to contradict the relevations of Episode 1. Boiled down it would be like this.

Contradictory

Episode 1: Qui Gon teaches Obi Wan.
ANH: Obi Wan tells Luke "Yoda and only Yoda trained me. Certainly no one by the name of Qui Gin Jinn had anything to do with my training." And even then , Ben was a notorious liar, so we should treat anything coming out of his mouth with skepticism anyway. ;)

Episode 1: Midi chlorian nonsense = The Force.
ANH: Ben tells Luke "The Force is a magical energy and certainly not little creatures in your bloodstream."

Non-Contradictory

The movies as they stand. If there is no mention of the contradictory elements, there there is nothing to contradict.
At least that's the way I see it.

For the record, I severely hate to get into this again, but I'll be brief.

The line that you're fuzzy on is of utmost importance in the discussion. Spirit Obi Wan indeed says: "You will go to Dagobah. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."

And Obi was not a liar in any sense. He did not tell Luke that the body of Vader used to have the personality of Anakin because Obi truly believed that Anakin was dead. "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." Plus, Obi also knew that young-naive Luke couldn't really understand the implications if he was told that information from the beginning. In short, it wasn't a lie at all.

I'll skip the Midi thing as that is a terribly long discussion and there are oodles of threads already devoted to the topic. :)

JediTricks
07-17-2002, 02:47 AM
Well, this thread is at a "stage 3 bickering alert", so I'm asking you ALL nicely to back off a bit.

Exhaust Port
07-17-2002, 09:24 AM
I think it would be interesting to take these points/arguments and revisit this topic in 10 years after all the movies are out and the story is completed. I'm sure just as critics blasted ESB when it came out but now seem to embrace it the same will hold true for TPM.

billfremore
07-17-2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


Don't patronize me.

No one told you not to like the movie. In fact, I even started another thread so you can extoll the virtues of the film without interference. :) If you love the film so much, head over there and convince us why we should too! :)

What I question is your reason for giving the film the leeway that you do. By saying this:

...you seem to be admitting that the film does have problems but we are supposed to ignore them because every story that starts a greater saga shouldn't be as entertaining as what comes after. The way I see it, the opposite is true, especially in this case where GL wants people to watch these in episode order. The first installment should be just as gripping as the last in order to draw a new audience in. So writing off the slow pace and other problems doesn't make much sense to me.



I like the movie.
I have no reason to justify my opinion to you.

You don't like certain elements of the movie.
You have no reason to justify your opinion to me.

I suggest we just leave it alone in the interest of peace.

Jacen Solo
07-18-2002, 02:26 PM
Ep 1 wasn't all bad I liked, except it would have been cool to have more Jedi fight instead of having to wait for AOTC.

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 08:09 PM
Something brought this thread to mind recently, a friend of mine enjoyed the Alien vs Predator film somewhat and wondered why the fanboys were complaining about it not being better, being good but not great, and one thing he said stuck with me:

What I see here are people complaining about the movie like people did with another long awaited flick - The Phantom Menace. Get over it. It's just a movie and be happy it was made. What is wrong with gratitude?He went on to explain that while AVP wasn't as good as some of the Aliens & Predator entries, AVP was entertaining on its own and basically a good popcorn flick.

My reply to his "where's da luv" touched upon TPM a lot, and I wanted to post from it since it sums up my feelings on the film, especially as it applies to this thread, even though as I've stated here before, I don't "hate" the film, I just don't love it. My comments are a little harsh at times, so you'll have to either forgive (or villify) me for 'em....

Here's what I have a problem with in the above quote, it's a growingly-common attitude among fanboys whom I suspect are trying to excuse a weak film because it's the latest entry in a beloved franchise, the "it may not have been great but it's a good popcorn flick in its own right" line of thinking. TPM is a film where if this weren't a franchise with a built-in audience, the film would likely have bombed (if it even could have been made at all) and everybody would have shrugged and said "eh" afterwards, "it's good but nothing I really enjoyed that much", they'd come out of the theaters feeling Shakespearean only in that they've just witnessed sound and fury that signified nothing.

A popcorn film is low-grade cattle-fodder, it's cheap entertainment like junk-food or crack where you feel vaguely satisfied while in the moment but afterwards it's nothing to you - that's fine for some films, but movies like TPM are built upon beloved franchises and if you don't deliver the REAL goods upon them, you are merely wasting the audience's time and love for the franchise. It's like Robocop 3, a perfect example of a film that might have been enjoyable on this popcorn level but is a total piece of crap in the grand scheme and deserves absolutely no respect because it made a half-arsed film out of a great franchise.

This whole "where's da gratitude" line of thinking should be turned around on these studios who bilk the built-in fanbase for a quick buck on a lame fly-by-night film because they know the fans will eat up anything they stuff in the wrapper -- they should be the ones grateful that anybody sees their crappy films at all since they didn't put the proper quality into the film that the franchise deserves. Asking for gratitude for a weak, shallow, messy let-down of a film borne of a higher-quality franchise is just telling fans to roll over for the system; these films that misuse the franchise they were given, dashing the hopes and expectations the previous entries had helped the fans build up, whizzes on the fans and those that made the previous films in the franchise which worked much harder to earn the love. If this were a stand-alone film not building on the Aliens & Predator franchises, nobody would say anything about it because they had NO expectations (and probably also because the moviemakers would have worked harder to make a great film that stands alone), but films like AVP and TPM are films built of expectations and unfortunately they were built sloppily instead of quality, so "thanks" for spitting out half-arsed garbage with the best tools available.

Let me put it another way: it's like that joke "how do you make a small fortune on the stock market? Start with a large fortune." Any addlebrained lackwit can take 10 million dollars and turn it into 5 million - if you didn't know he started with that $10mil you'd likely be quite impressed that he had $5mil, but once we know that he made 5 million bucks out of 10 million, how can you be amazed by that?

Anybody can take filet mignon and turn it into hamburger - sure you might like hamburger, but you went in being told it was filet mignon, you've had filet mignon before and liked it a lot, but this hamburger is no longer filet mignon, if you didn't go in expecting filet mignon maybe the hamburger would be tasty, but you went in expecting filet mignon.

stillakid
08-20-2004, 10:34 PM
You're entirely correct. It really is about expectations, something that I believe most of us have said all along. With what most of us agree as high quality lead ins to the Prequels (those being the OT films), it was natural to expect not only as good, but better given the time Lucas had to develop these films as well as the advances in technology. As you say, had these been stand-alones, then quite likely the overall reaction by nearly everyone would have been :ermm: and we all would have moved on to see American Pie XXX. But as I mentioned elsewhere recently, a fair number of Star Wars fans seem to be extra-ordinarily forgiving when it comes to critiquing the Prequels. Leeway is given toward flaws that few of them would dare give other films out of this franchise. Just look at the overwhelming rejection we've all read toward fun "popcorn" films like ID4 or more recently Catwoman. Full of flaws, yes. Yet fun in their own right, but villified by nearly all and frequently by die-hard supporters of Lucas-products. The disconnect between critiquing standards can really only be explained by a sort of blind "fandom" and desire to want the Prequels to be good no matter how much rationalization it takes. It's a curious phenomenon for certain. :sur:

Imperial Monarche
08-26-2004, 03:01 PM
...you seem to be admitting that the film does have problems but we are supposed to ignore them because every story that starts a greater saga shouldn't be as entertaining as what comes after. The way I see it, the opposite is true, especially in this case where GL wants people to watch these in episode order. The first installment should be just as gripping as the last in order to draw a new audience in. So writing off the slow pace and other problems doesn't make much sense to me.

You bring up a good point. I do agree that TPM was definitely not what it could have been. If that was the first movie that came out would the culture be as hooked on Star Wars as it is now and would we have been drawn into this six story saga as we are now? i don't know. I guess that's a question nobody can answer. I wish it had been better. I don't hate it, but I don't love it either. I would say it's my least favorite. I do think that the acting was nothing to shake a stick at, it was way over done with CGI and the roles were casted strangly. I'm not so sure that I would be willing to admit that the script was bad (except for a few plot details like the midichlorians and the odd positioning of some parts). Jar-jar was, yes, extremely irritating. I thought his comedy relief was okay for awhile, but ended up just being annoying and the "poo-poo" humor sucked. You got that one completely right.

Slicker
08-26-2004, 08:33 PM
I personally love Episode I. The Podrace was awesome and the lightsaber duel was quite outstanding. Back home I get ragged on by certain people *cough*Rocketboy*cough* but who is he to judge, he likes AOTC. Loser.:D

stillakid
08-26-2004, 08:59 PM
I personally love Episode I. The Podrace was awesome and the lightsaber duel was quite outstanding. Back home I get ragged on by certain people *cough*Rocketboy*cough* but who is he to judge, he likes AOTC. Loser.:D

Well, yeah, there are certainly elements residing within the 2 hours that are cool. But that's like saying you like driving a Ford Edsel when you're really just enamored with the hubcaps and the tailpipe. Personally, I prefer that not only all the elements be "attractive," but that they also work together in harmony. That's where Episode I (and most of II) failed. Some great parts, but the connecting glue just isn't there.

TheDarthVader
08-27-2004, 03:37 PM
I like episode one. But I have tried to argue points time after time in the past (as far as why I like it). It is to no avail. So I am not going to waste time arguing anymore. I will just enjoy the movie myself and if someone else doesn't like it........SO WHAT! His/her opinion will never effect my view of the movie. THE END.

B.
TDV

stillakid
08-27-2004, 11:42 PM
I like episode one. But I have tried to argue points time after time in the past (as far as why I like it). It is to no avail. So I am not going to waste time arguing anymore. I will just enjoy the movie myself and if someone else doesn't like it........SO WHAT! His/her opinion will never effect my view of the movie. THE END.

B.
TDV

That's the spirit. Stick to your guns! :)

TheDarthVader
08-30-2004, 11:47 AM
That's the spirit. Stick to your guns! :)

Thank you, I will. And I don't blame you for sticking to your guns either. Its not bad to have a difference of opinion. Everyone has varying beliefs and opinions. :)

B.
TDV

Knightfall
09-05-2004, 08:35 PM
When it first came out, I liked TPM. But the more I watched it, the flaws in the film became more and more glaring, to the point that I now refuse to watch it and am giving my TPM video to a friend with no plans to ever own another one. I had a similar experience with AOTC.

So come next May, I'll be the first person to tell you ROTS is awesome. But odds are, come next September, I'll also be the first to tell you it sucks.

Turambar
09-05-2004, 10:20 PM
When it first came out, I liked TPM. But the more I watched it, the flaws in the film became more and more glaring, to the point that I now refuse to watch it and am giving my TPM video to a friend with no plans to ever own another one. I had a similar experience with AOTC.

So come next May, I'll be the first person to tell you ROTS is awesome. But odds are, come next September, I'll also be the first to tell you it sucks.

I had the same feelings. I fell into the hype, and it was just awesome to see a new star wars. But, like you, the more I tried to watch it, the more irritating Jar Jar became. . . then I noticed how annoying lil ani was, then midichlorians, and many examples of bad writing, acting, directing. . . anyhow, the new direction of the saga is very different from the trilogy, and the prequels along with the SE put a different twist on the story I always enjoyed --to the point that I want nothing to do with it.
I don't have a lot of time to go to movies anymore, but even if I could find the time I wouldn't bother with E3.
I'm not sure if Georgie will survive the financial blow of my unbought ticket, but I'm enjoying prequel & SE free life. I still can't decide between LD or bootleg DVD, though, if anyone's got any suggestions.

stillakid
09-06-2004, 01:15 AM
My son wanted to watch TPM the other day (he had just watched AOTC the day before and ROTJ a few days prior to that) so I was listening to it in the background. (He said he like it for the podrace)

Anyway, the one part that has always bugged me almost more than the rest is at the end when the doors open and evil Maul is standing there looking all evil and stuff. Forget the fact that all the Naboo guys with guns just stand there like morons. What really gets me is Amidala saying, "We'll take the long way."

Cut to a few minutes later when that little group is pinned down in the hallway. What does the [lovely beautiful young lady] say? "We don't have time for this, Captain." Everytime, I wish Captain would turn to her and say, "Taking the long way was your stupid idea, you [lovely beautiful young lady]!" I mean seriously, all the Naboo guys had to do was open fire on Maul simultaneously and the problem would have gone away. But Noooooooooooooooooooooo. The Jedi have their [egos] wagging out in the breeze as Qui Gon says, "We'll handle this." Puhlease. :rolleyes: Just shoot the [bad guys] and get it over with. What is this, James frickin' Bond?

This sequence was indicative of the poor and sloppy writing that author George Cornelius Lucas churned out by hand at the ranch.

Devo
09-06-2004, 01:25 PM
I actually hated the podrace and never really understood why some saw it as a 'redeeming' aspect. It bored me to tears and the outcome was never in doubt. The most cartoony portion of a cartoon film. I simply cannot engage with cgi. Only the first jurassic park film has managed to reel me in and inspire some kind of emotion but with Spielberg that should hardly surprise. I bet he secretly thinks the prequels are crap but doesn't have the heart to tell George. But even if he did reveal any criticisms Lucas doubtless would have thrown up his human shield, mr Rick mcCallum. stubborn wa*ker.

JediTricks
09-06-2004, 08:15 PM
I actually hated the podrace and never really understood why some saw it as a 'redeeming' aspect. It bored me to tears and the outcome was never in doubt. The most cartoony portion of a cartoon film. I simply cannot engage with cgi. I can sometimes get past the CGI issue, but I totally agree with you about the podrace, this sequence might be entertaining as a stand-alone short or something, but in this film it puts the brakes on a sequence that already had been slowed to a standstill. Nothing like having the entire plot put on hold while we watch cartoons fly around in non-combat for several minutes.

stillakid
09-06-2004, 08:59 PM
As I've said before, this entire Tatooine sequence could have been made much better by simply having Obi Wan (not this Qui Gon nonsense...and for that matter, move the whole thing to a different new planet that Anakin lives on) arrive in the city to find a PodRace already in progress. We (the audience) sees the last bit of the race (to get the "feeling" of NASCAR that George was obviously going for) and the winner, that being Anakin, barely surviving the last couple of scrapes with his opponent. BAM! Right there, Obi Wan has discovered Anakin, seen how great a pilot he is, and "just how strongly the Force is with him." That "Force" idea is, well, reinforced ;) later when Anakin is fixing his busted up Podracer and he reaches for a tool that slides a couple of inches across the table to his outstretched hand. Simple, to the point and I haven't even injected any dialogue yet. See how easy this is, George? :rolleyes:

Devo
09-06-2004, 09:43 PM
This ridiculous sidelining of established characters was part of the ruination of Phantom and consequently detrimental to the structure of the whole PT in my opinion. Obi-wan - pushed aside by some guy we'd never heard of thereby complicating, unnecessarily, established star wars lore that Obi was trained by yoda and that Obi took on anakin having seen 'how strongly the force was with him'. Now suddenly, and seemingly to most, without reason Obi was trained by a previously unmentioned master (forcing us to speculate as to why he was never mentioned) and in fact only took on anakin out of a sense of obligation to said master, I mean WTF??!!?? Didn't he rewatch the OT before writing this? How are we then to believe that some kind of real friendship develops between anakin and obi? Why wasn't that friendship a primary focus in this film? Oh right because lucas also made the sad decision to have anakin as a child and therefore ruled it out. It would have been a T2 kind of set-up of a 'boy and his terminator/jedi'. But that certainly wasn't the kind of relationship we all envisaged based on Obi's lines in the OT. Clearly nothing Lucas has written for the PT is based on obi's lines in the OT.

Who else was sidelined? Oh yes R2 and 3P0. Thats OK though because that paved way for the comic tour-de-force that is jar jar binks which we all clearly prefer. If only they'd thought of him when making the OT and we'd have gotten more mishaps and pratfalls and been spared the banter and sarcasm of the stupid droids. Imagine the hilarious possibilities of say, jar jar toppling an AT-AT or providing light comic relief by accidentally saving Leia et al from the stormtroopers, cleverly edited to immediately follow Vaders dramatic revelation to Luke. In fact I hope to see this done in the ESB super edition as it would mirror a classic moment of drama-killing in Episode 1 when right after qui-gon is run-through by Darth maul it cuts to Jar Jar dishing out the laughs as he surrenders to the CG droids on the CG landscape. Just marvelous.

stillakid
09-07-2004, 10:44 AM
You know what else is dumb? At the beginning of the movie, when the heroes are escaping Naboo in that shiny starship, Rick Olie says "There's the blockade" and then proceeds to fly RIGHT FOR IT! Um, you knucklehead, you've got a frickin' steering wheel. Try using it.

So as they're getting shot at and "losing droids fast!", he continues to fly RIGHT FOR IT. He gets so close in fact, that just before they "escape" he nearly scrapes the frickin' Federation ship. WTF? What a moron. And I don't mean Ric. I mean the author, Lucas. The last time I checked, "outer space" was a pretty massive place. Can anyone explain just why an escaping ship would head right at a blockade? Where are all those Episode I apologists? JJB? Anybody?

Imperial Monarche
09-07-2004, 11:02 AM
You know what else is dumb? At the beginning of the movie, when the heroes are escaping Naboo in that shiny starship, Rick Olie says "There's the blockade" and then proceeds to fly RIGHT FOR IT! Um, you knucklehead, you've got a frickin' steering wheel. Try using it.

So as they're getting shot at and "losing droids fast!", he continues to fly RIGHT FOR IT. He gets so close in fact, that just before they "escape" he nearly scrapes the frickin' Federation ship. WTF? What a moron. And I don't mean Ric. I mean the author, Lucas. The last time I checked, "outer space" was a pretty massive place. Can anyone explain just why an escaping ship would head right at a blockade? Where are all those Episode I apologists? JJB? Anybody?

He he he...that's a very good point. I won't disagree with you on one thing, Lucas definitely has lost his touch on writing scripts, although I didn't think that ATOC was that bad.

Droid
09-07-2004, 11:39 AM
I agree, stillakid, as you've seen in my other posts, I think the prequels had massive problems. They can't always be explained away.

But here's one for you, from the original trilogy. If in A New Hope Leia knew the Falcon was being tracked, why not have Han drop them off somewhere, get on a ship not being tracked, and fly to Yavin.? Or better yet, find the tracking device before heading to Yavin. That way, the Empire wouldn't know where the Rebel base was and the Rebels could attack the Death Star at their leisure. I mean, Leia didn't even know that they could find a weakness in the Death Star. Why did she risk letting the Imperials find the base? It would have made more sense for Lucas to not have Leia even suspect the homing beacon. IT MAKES NO SENSE. Star Wars sometimes doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, the prequels make sense alot less than the original trilogy.

Here's another one. Vader was looking for Luke on Hoth, yet he obsessed over the Falcon. Why didn't Luke have any trouble at all flying away from Hoth? Not one TIE Fighter. Wouldn't they have surrounded the planet? Or, since Luke took off from the same general part of the planet (he saw the Falcon take off as he stumbled to his ship), why didn't Luke fly into the same hornet's nest Han did?

My main problem with the prequels isn't so much the moment to moment stuff (like Darth Maul in the hangar and the blockade), though the problems clearly exist as they did in the original trilogy. It is that the original trilogy just doesn't match up with the prequels unless you strain every original trilogy line of dialogue into a certain point of view.

stillakid
09-07-2004, 01:49 PM
I agree, stillakid, as you've seen in my other posts, I think the prequels had massive problems. They can't always be explained away.

But here's one for you, from the original trilogy. If in A New Hope Leia knew the Falcon was being tracked, why not have Han drop them off somewhere, get on a ship not being tracked, and fly to Yavin.? Or better yet, find the tracking device before heading to Yavin. That way, the Empire wouldn't know where the Rebel base was and the Rebels could attack the Death Star at their leisure. I mean, Leia didn't even know that they could find a weakness in the Death Star. Why did she risk letting the Imperials find the base. It would have made more sense for Lucas to not have Leia even suspect the homing beacon. IT MAKES NO SENSE. Star Wars sometimes doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, the prequels make sense alot less than the original trilogy.

I've thought about that one in the past as well. All I can figure is that they figured it would take too long to find the homing device (it's a big ship) and the Imperials would catch up with them too quickly and possibly blow them away if they stopped. Also, there may not have been anywhere to stop on the way to Yavin from the Alderaan system. At least no place practical to get to. So, yeah, these answers are stretches a bit, but they are fairly passive stretches to explain a problem. Unlike the Ric Olie steering wheel fiasco in which the problem and solution is right there in front of our eyes.


Here's another one. Vader was looking for Luke on Hoth, yet he obsessed over the Falcon. Why didn't Luke have any trouble at all flying away from Hoth? Not one TIE Fighter. Wouldn't they have surrounded the planet? Or, since Luke took off from the same general part of the planet (he saw the Falcon take off as he stumbled to his ship), why didn't Luke fly into the same hornet's nest Han did?
Again, we can hypothosize and say that the Imperial fleet by that time was pretty much drawn away from the planet by the escaping ships. So when Luke was ready to take off, there really wasn't a whole lot left up there to worry about. Heck, for that matter, his ship is just sitting there with no enemy troops in sight. By that I think we can assume that the ground troops we saw with Vader packed it in figuring they missed the party.


My main problem with the prequels isn't so much the moment to moment stuff (like Darth Maul in the hangar and the blockade), though the problems clearly exist as they did in the original trilogy. It is that the original trilogy just doesn't match up with the prequels unless you strain every original trilogy line of dialogue into a certain point of view.
The devil is in the details. Some call it nitpicking. I call it common sense.

Imperial Monarche
09-07-2004, 02:11 PM
I've thought about that one in the past as well. All I can figure is that they figured it would take too long to find the homing device (it's a big ship) and the Imperials would catch up with them too quickly and possibly blow them away if they stopped. Also, there may not have been anywhere to stop on the way to Yavin from the Alderaan system. At least no place practical to get to. So, yeah, these answers are stretches a bit, but they are fairly passive stretches to explain a problem. Unlike the Ric Olie steering wheel fiasco in which the problem and solution is right there in front of our eyes.

Or, maybe since Leia had the secret weapon (the plans), she figured they had a better chance at destroying the Death Star by leading the Imperial's to them. That way, the Imperials would be so focused on destroying the Rebel base, they wouldn't be on their best defensive for an attack. Sure, it's probably the most risky plan she could have come up with, but hey...it's probably the best.

Besides, if Lucas hadn't added that line from Leia, we would have been left with yet another question- How did the Death Star arrive at Yavin?

Droid
09-07-2004, 03:06 PM
Besides, if Lucas hadn't added that line from Leia, we would have been left with yet another question- How did the Death Star arrive at Yavin?

No, because we would still have the conversation between Tarkin and Vader:

Tarkin: Are they away?
Darth Vader : They just made the jump into hyperspace.
Tarkin : And you're sure the homing beacon is secure onboard their
ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work.

stillakid
09-07-2004, 03:35 PM
No, because we would still have the conversation between Tarkin and Vader:

Tarkin: Are they away?
Darth Vader : They just made the jump into hyperspace.
Tarkin : And you're sure the homing beacon is secure onboard their
ship? I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work.


Which brings up an interesting question: just how do these homing beacons work anyway?

Based on ANH, I always rather assumed that the receiver could only "hear" the beacon when in "normal" space, not hyperspace. Why? Because the Death Star would have been on top of Yavin moments after the Falcon landed. But we know it didn't happen that way because the Rebels had oodles of time to "examine" the data and come up with a plan.

The problem comes in (another one) when you look at AOTC. Obi Wan tosses a homing beacon on Slave I and virtually follows him through hyperspace to Geonosis. So if this technology exists then, why didn't the Imperials have it in Episode IV?

Devo
09-07-2004, 04:53 PM
Similar to Phantoms 'fly right towards the blockade' is ESB's 'fly right toward the star destroyer we're trying to escape from'. Lando and Leia pilot the Falcon right up to the Executor while also being pursued by TIEs.

I've tried to rationalise it like the great PC game X-wing Alliance in which you often had to fly towards star destroyers to reach hyperspace buoys. But then again in the films travel into hyperspace doesn't seem to have been dependant on such things.

It seems to me that Star wars often sacrifices sense for good rollicking visual spectacle. And of course in the case of the prequels script, story, and acting also suffer especially where pointless sequences are written in solely for visual spectacle cough<<trip to Naboo planet core>>cough.......oh wait. Why disguise my indignation? Trip to the Naboo planet core. A pointless sequence filled with pointless CGI. Utter sh*te.

Droid
09-14-2004, 03:39 PM
Which brings up an interesting question: just how do these homing beacons work anyway?

Based on ANH, I always rather assumed that the receiver could only "hear" the beacon when in "normal" space, not hyperspace. Why? Because the Death Star would have been on top of Yavin moments after the Falcon landed. But we know it didn't happen that way because the Rebels had oodles of time to "examine" the data and come up with a plan.

The problem comes in (another one) when you look at AOTC. Obi Wan tosses a homing beacon on Slave I and virtually follows him through hyperspace to Geonosis. So if this technology exists then, why didn't the Imperials have it in Episode IV?

I've been thinking about this stillakid. Perhaps the homing beacons do allow tracking through hyperspace. But maybe the Death Star doesn't have a hyperdrive. Or maybe it can not move very quickly through hyperspace due to its size. Maybe that bought the Rebels time on Yavin to process R2's plans and come up with an attack plan.

JediTricks
09-14-2004, 08:25 PM
The Death Star has a hyperdrive, but since the station is the size of a small moon, it has to be a lot more careful about its hyperspace routes because it has a lot more gravity field to get snagged by other planets while flying through space. Think of it like a road through a forest, a car will not have much trouble speeding down the road because the path is kept away from the trees, but you send a shopping mall down that same road and it is going to run into just about everything nearby including any large boulders which may be hidden behind the trees.

As for why the Death Star didn't land right on top of Yavin, they did, but Yavin is a massive gas giant and the Rebels are on the 4th moon that is orbiting the giant, so the Death Star cannot just drop out of hyperspace at Yavin 4 because they could very well end up flying right through the gas giant itself and get destroyed or even just hit the massive gravitational eddies that come from getting too close to the planet and thus get torn apart. So what we're shown in the film is a de-trekified version of that, the Death Star arrives at Yavin and goes into a faster orbit around the planet to catch up with the Rebel base located on the Yavin 4 moon.

stillakid
09-15-2004, 10:51 AM
The Death Star has a hyperdrive, but since the station is the size of a small moon, it has to be a lot more careful about its hyperspace routes because it has a lot more gravity field to get snagged by other planets while flying through space. Think of it like a road through a forest, a car will not have much trouble speeding down the road because the path is kept away from the trees, but you send a shopping mall down that same road and it is going to run into just about everything nearby including any large boulders which may be hidden behind the trees.

As for why the Death Star didn't land right on top of Yavin, they did, but Yavin is a massive gas giant and the Rebels are on the 4th moon that is orbiting the giant, so the Death Star cannot just drop out of hyperspace at Yavin 4 because they could very well end up flying right through the gas giant itself and get destroyed or even just hit the massive gravitational eddies that come from getting too close to the planet and thus get torn apart. So what we're shown in the film is a de-trekified version of that, the Death Star arrives at Yavin and goes into a faster orbit around the planet to catch up with the Rebel base located on the Yavin 4 moon.

Yeah, you know, while the "science" is certainly plausible and the absence of any "explanation" like that above is completely understandable, what we do have onscreen regarding this time delay is the homing beacon. Without that story device and any element of the like to relate to this "chase," I think that it is entirely plausible to suggest the science behind the reasoning. But because we do have a story element (like the homing beacon), the audience is left with no choice but to apply the parameters of the onscreen element to the question at large. The only other choice is to do what you have and assume a whole lot in some after-movie coffee house discussion.

JediTricks
09-15-2004, 11:54 PM
There is science mentioned in the film to suggest this, Han says that "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" and later in the film, we see the Falcon moving through its orbit of Yavin on approach to the 4th moon, a little while later we see the Death Star moving towards Yavin and hear in the Death Star intercom voice "We are approaching the planet Yavin. The Rebel base is on a moon on the far side. We are preparing to orbit the planet." and finally we hear "Orbiting the planet at maximum velocity. The
moon with the Rebel base will be in range in thirty minutes." and are shown a graphic of the Death Star and Yavin 4 moon orbiting Yavin as the Death Star closes in.

I think it's there, it's just not super Treknobabbled. ;)

stillakid
09-16-2004, 09:46 AM
There is science mentioned in the film to suggest this, Han says that "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" and later in the film, we see the Falcon moving through its orbit of Yavin on approach to the 4th moon, a little while later we see the Death Star moving towards Yavin and hear in the Death Star intercom voice "We are approaching the planet Yavin. The Rebel base is on a moon on the far side. We are preparing to orbit the planet." and finally we hear "Orbiting the planet at maximum velocity. The
moon with the Rebel base will be in range in thirty minutes." and are shown a graphic of the Death Star and Yavin 4 moon orbiting Yavin as the Death Star closes in.

I think it's there, it's just not super Treknobabbled. ;)

Hmmmmnnnaaaaaaaaa......maybe. We do get the idea that you can't just punch a button and go (although they don't seem to have that problem anytime after the Tatooine incident). But even if true, I don't see what it has to do with the homing beacon problem. When dealing with Yavin specifically, it's clear that the moon was on the far side in line with where Alderaan was. Everyone arriving from that direction would have to come back to normal speed unless they wanted to shoot past the whole system then backtrack to get to the moon. So that "delay" of orbit makes sense within that confined sequence and has nothing to do with "traveling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops, boy."

Ji'dai
09-18-2004, 10:44 PM
Here's another one. Vader was looking for Luke on Hoth, yet he obsessed over the Falcon. Why didn't Luke have any trouble at all flying away from Hoth? Not one TIE Fighter. Wouldn't they have surrounded the planet? Or, since Luke took off from the same general part of the planet (he saw the Falcon take off as he stumbled to his ship), why didn't Luke fly into the same hornet's nest Han did?

The ion cannon may have taken quite a few Star Destroyers out of commission before the power generator was destroyed. So Luke's X-Wing may have been able to slip away undetected. It's a small ship anyway and Vader's Fleet may not have been large enough to cover the entire planet. Vader's constant, if reckless pursuit of the Falcon is a smart tactic, by capturing Luke's friends, he can use them as bait. Which he later does at Cloud City.

As for Episode I, one thing that bothers me is the Naboo political system. I would've preferred that Padme actually been real royalty, rather than democraticaly elected. Even if Naboo culture was matriarchal, what society elects a 14 year old adolescent head of state? She could've been orphaned at a young age and just assumed the throne prior to TPM. I can understand that Lucas wants Padme to be this champion of democracy, the antithesis of Palpatine, and I suppose it would be hypocritical if she was head of state of an authoritarian system herself. But there are benevolent Kings and Queens in our myths and legends so why not here? Or maybe some kind of constitutional monarchy. Leia could have actually been descended from royalty then, and her title would make sense (though her adoptive family on Alderaan may be royalty).

JON9000
09-20-2004, 10:28 PM
Even if Naboo culture was matriarchal, what society elects a 14 year old adolescent head of state? She could've been orphaned at a young age and just assumed the throne prior to TPM.
I don't have such a huge problem with the teen queen bit. A number of cultures here choose children as spiritual and political leaders. I suppose the Tibetans are the most famous example.

Ji'dai
09-24-2004, 09:23 PM
I don't have such a huge problem with the teen queen bit. A number of cultures here choose children as spiritual and political leaders. I suppose the Tibetans are the most famous example.
I don't have a problem with teenage or child leaders, but it's unrealistic to think that a free democracy would popularly elect one head of state. I would've preferred that Padme inherited the throne from her parent(s) or was arbitrarily chosen - the way the Tibetan Lamas are. Tibet was/is a theocracy, similar to present-day Iran.

Maybe Naboo is like Ork, a world where older people are the children and the young are the adults. Lucas was paying homage to Mork & Mindy with his Naboo culture. It's so wizard! :D

El Chuxter
10-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Okay, first to address the comment in Ji'dai's post: according to the backstory, all Naboo become involved in public service, sometimes meaning politics, early in life. The novel Cloak of Deception states further that it was very unordinary that Palpatine was still in politics at his age.

Okay, so it still makes no sense.

JT saw my comments about changing my opinion of TPM in the Classic Trilogy thread several days ago and said he smelled an E1 post. Well, here it is, and it's been a long time in the making:

TPM Haters: I have joined the Dark Side and am now one of you!

Okay, maybe not that extreme. It's still a watchable movie, maybe like Highlander 3 or Masters of the Universe. It's bad, but you know you'll watch it again.

I've seen it more than the other movies (since, following both the VHS and DVD releases, I kept watching "one more scene" all the way to the end every time I saw it playing in a store), but I've never watched it in close proximity to the rest of the series. Well, last Sunday, I saw 4-6, then 1-2.

Yikes.

First, Jar Jar has to go. I've thought in the past he was okay in small doses, but I'm no longer so sure. He has some decent moments, like "Gungans no die without a fight." Okay, a decent moment. Otherwise, he's completely unnecessary comic relief that sticks out like a sore thumb and stoops to a level that SW should never stoop to. (And this includes "dellow felegates" from AOTC, too.)

Chewbacca would never step in poop.

A tauntaun would never fart on Han on camera.

The OT humor is interwoven and comes from everyone. Qui-Gon has a great funny line early on ("The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"), and C-3PO has a few zingers, but the majority of the attempted humor comes from Jar Jar, and it's not funny.

We don't even get any dignity from the other Gungans, making Jar Jar more of a ripoff. If he were abnormal, it could be forgiven. But they're all goons! Tarpals' first line includes the word "doodoo," and Boss Nass spits one too many times. (Again, done only when he's mad at Qui-Gon, it might've worked. But to use this bit at the Sacred Place, to express a completely different emotion, is gratuitous.) And when they win? They just slap their enemies. Stupid.

Oh, and Fode and Beed. Axe them. Period. Completely without redeeming features.

In fact, get rid of all the animated characters, except Sebulba and the Battle Droids. They're the only ones consistently well-done. At least the BD's stupidity really is funny at times.

And Anakin. My God, Jake makes Hobbie Klivvian look like Laurence Olivier! His delivery is horrid, his lines repulsive, and he's not the cutest kid, either. Haley Joel Osment was the right age, and he's a great actor, period. Did he audition? If not, why didn't Lucas hunt him down? If so, what's wrong with Lucas for not picking him?

Yoda was horrible. I'm not just talking about the puppet, though it sucked, too. (If you're 900, 30 years isn't going to make that much difference in your appearance!) It's impossible not to love Yoda in ESB and ROTJ. But just from TPM, it's impossible to even like him. He's just a jerk. It doesn't fit.

The script is, well, the less said, the better. If you throw great actors like Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor, Natalie Portman, Terrence Stamp, and Samuel L Jackson together and have them work with this, you need your head examined. Jackson did a crappy job, but I can't fault him for it.

And let's not even mention the sheer stupidity of having Vader build C-3PO. I'll be typing all day.

TPM could be erased and summed up in three lines of dialogue dispersed through AOTC, which is a true SW movie.

It's not completely without redeeming features, though. The podrace and duel sequences are excellent. In the future, I may watch only those scenes.

Aside from a couple of too-cartoony podracers, I cannot think of a single visual design that isn't impeccable. And John Williams' score is one of his best.

stillakid
10-02-2004, 12:03 AM
TPM Haters: I have joined the Dark Side and am now one of you!

Welcome. :D Your eyes have been opened. Initiation fees and monthly dues forms will be mailed out soon.



:And Anakin. My God, Jake makes Hobbie Klivvian look like Laurence Olivier! His delivery is horrid, his lines repulsive, and he's not the cutest kid, either. Haley Joel Osment was the right age, and he's a great actor, period. Did he audition? If not, why didn't Lucas hunt him down? If so, what's wrong with Lucas for not picking him?.

My pick was always Eric Lloyd (no relation to Jake). At the time, he was the right age, with the right look, and he was a fantastic kid actor. Look him up on www.imdb.com for a resume. Oh well... :ermm:

El Chuxter
10-04-2004, 11:34 AM
Wha...? I thought it was Lucas, the purveyor of TPM, who charged out the wazoo, not the haters of TPM! I was lied to!

I don't want to be charged, so I'll just say
Best Movie EVER! :crazed:

stillakid
10-04-2004, 12:02 PM
Wha...? I thought it was Lucas, the purveyor of TPM, who charged out the wazoo, not the haters of TPM! I was lied to!

I don't want to be charged, so I'll just say
Best Movie EVER! :crazed:

Being a Lucasite costs more... a LOT more. You'll be required to purchase the bi-yearly "software" update as Lucas-soft constantly upgrades its product line of fine motion pictures. Not to mention the ancillary accessories which you can sometimes find at Target, TRU and other fine retailers near you.

In comparison, the cost of being a Prequel "hater" is the time it takes to rebute rabid fans and the risk of personal attack and being maligned.

So you can either go with the flow and spend spend spend, or swim upstream and save save save. :)

Tonysmo
10-11-2004, 04:56 AM
I, Tonysmo, am a prequel hater..


Im sure some of you may have known already, but if it hasnt been announced..

ani - horrible.
liam - horrible. ( so horrible in fact he even admitted to sucking in this film!! )
C3PO - horrible. c'mon, who'da thought you'd ever see 3PO danglin from a conveyor belt being swung around by machines? It doesnt happen!! NO NO NO! :frus: :frus: :frus:

cgi+lucas=bad.

I could go on and on about what I cant stand but its just repeditive from what you already know. The dialog was beyond dry, the characters have NO chrisma. The cgi was horrible in alot of instances. Darth Maul was THE premire character of the film.. marketed, stamped, and NOT delivered.. What? youve lost the Jedi? meet ****DARTH MAUL**** Sith apprentence.. How many lines did this guy have?? 15 minutes screen time? maybe?? The Dark Lord Vader himself........ YIIPIIEEE!!


but, I still like this movie better than any Star Trek movies.. :crazed:



disclamier: dont get me wrong, I still cringe at ANH as well.. but only at really crappy scenes inserted after the fact. JABBA! I hate that scene. :mad: loathe that scene. :mad: Jabba belongs in ROTJ. -- :frus:

Jayspawn
10-20-2004, 10:03 AM
Defending Jake, JarJar, and Episode I

I have no big ruts against "The Phantom Menace" its a fine movie and yes -its the slowest of all 6 Star Wars films. But....

Defending Jake: Jake was a little kid. Child actors are hard to work with and its not too common that a child actor will give so great a preformance that will knock you out of your seat. Had you given the role (as it WAS GOING to be a child playing Anakin) to say Haley Joel Osment or Eric Lloyd you would have gotten the same preformance -just by somebody else. Everything Jake said or did as Anakin was directed by George. That was the script, that was the direction. All that aside. Can you imagine taking a film franchise as successful as Star Wars and just handing it to a little kid and say "Here, carry this movie" After considering all that -I think Jake's acting was just fine. Not a problem.

Defending JarJar: I was a little put off by JarJar the first time I saw Episode I in theatres. And a little after the 8 or so times I saw it in theatres and countless times on DVD. But I've reasoned JarJar as this -hes a character created by the same person who created Han Solo, Chewbacca, Captain Piett, etc. Hes a Star Wars character now and he cannot be unmade. Therefore, he doesnt bother me at all. I think people who are that annoyed by him are focusing too much on him and not on him in a scene with other characters in a story. Focus people!

Defending Episode I I think people are affraid to admit this, but were you really ready for a new Star Wars movie? Face it, theres NO Han Solo, NO Chewbacca, NO Darth Vader, NO Stormtroopers. I think people are so used to the original trilogy that they didnt really accept any of the new characters from the beginning ie: JarJar, Anakin. Theres no way to identify with them yet because they're so new that people instinctfully lash out against them "Thats not right." "The acting is terrible" and so on. After seeing Episode II so many times I've reasoned out everything about Episode I and after -so I've not a problem with the film (except for a little long podrace scene and not enough Darth Maul -but thats editing) Episode II gets into more familiar looking characters -people embraced it more because thats what they're comfortable with.

stillakid
10-20-2004, 10:18 AM
Defending Episode I I think people are affraid to admit this, but were you really ready for a new Star Wars movie? Face it, theres NO Han Solo, NO Chewbacca, NO Darth Vader, NO Stormtroopers. I think people are so used to the original trilogy that they didnt really accept any of the new characters from the beginning ie: JarJar, Anakin. Theres no way to identify with them yet because they're so new that people instinctfully lash out against them "Thats not right." "The acting is terrible" and so on. After seeing Episode II so many times I've reasoned out everything about Episode I and after -so I've not a problem with the film (except for a little long podrace scene and not enough Darth Maul -but thats editing) Episode II gets into more familiar looking characters -people embraced it more because thats what they're comfortable with.

Um, no. For me at least, I was ready for a NEW Star Wars movie. Only an ignoramous would expect to see the whole gang back for a new romp of summer blockbuster fun. We knew that these stories occurred many years prior to the events of the OT, so to blame our "hate" on this idea that we wanted a simple rehash is out of line. It's a simplistic way to look at the situation and entirely erroneous.

In fact, aside from the necessary characters who were needed to tell the Prequel story (like Obi Wan, Yoda to a degree, and Anakin), the shoe-horned inclusion of gratutious characters like Boba Fett, Chewbacca, and the droids to a degree have been nothing but detriments to the story. So with that in mind, your idea above would be 180 degrees in the wrong direction. With much of the gang coming back for cameo after gratuitous cameo, by all rights we should be loving every minute of it. No?

So, again, no. You're assuming that we're all a bunch of superficial morons. For myself, I was looking first and foremost for a good well-told story. That has been an utter failure. Second, I was looking for a story that followed the established continuity that we had been led to believe in. Lucas failed in that regard as well. Had the Prequel Trilogy required the use of all "the ol' gang," then it would have been welcomed so long as the story was also written well and the technicalities of acting and so forth followed suit. But nearly everything (except production design and soundtrack) failed in almost everyway to deliver. That is why there is so much disappointment for the Star Wars prequels.

Rocketboy
10-20-2004, 10:27 AM
I, Tonysmo, am a prequel hater..
Coming from the guy with a Clonetrooper for an avatar... :confused:

Turambar
10-20-2004, 07:30 PM
Defending Jake, JarJar, and Episode I

I have no big ruts against "The Phantom Menace" its a fine movie and yes -its the slowest of all 6 Star Wars films. But....

Defending Jake: Jake was a little kid. Child actors are hard to work with and its not too common that a child actor will give so great a preformance that will knock you out of your seat. Had you given the role (as it WAS GOING to be a child playing Anakin) to say Haley Joel Osment or Eric Lloyd you would have gotten the same preformance -just by somebody else. Everything Jake said or did as Anakin was directed by George. That was the script, that was the direction. All that aside. Can you imagine taking a film franchise as successful as Star Wars and just handing it to a little kid and say "Here, carry this movie" After considering all that -I think Jake's acting was just fine. Not a problem.

Defending JarJar: I was a little put off by JarJar the first time I saw Episode I in theatres. And a little after the 8 or so times I saw it in theatres and countless times on DVD. But I've reasoned JarJar as this -hes a character created by the same person who created Han Solo, Chewbacca, Captain Piett, etc. Hes a Star Wars character now and he cannot be unmade. Therefore, he doesnt bother me at all. I think people who are that annoyed by him are focusing too much on him and not on him in a scene with other characters in a story. Focus people!

Defending Episode I I think people are affraid to admit this, but were you really ready for a new Star Wars movie? Face it, theres NO Han Solo, NO Chewbacca, NO Darth Vader, NO Stormtroopers. I think people are so used to the original trilogy that they didnt really accept any of the new characters from the beginning ie: JarJar, Anakin. Theres no way to identify with them yet because they're so new that people instinctfully lash out against them "Thats not right." "The acting is terrible" and so on. After seeing Episode II so many times I've reasoned out everything about Episode I and after -so I've not a problem with the film (except for a little long podrace scene and not enough Darth Maul -but thats editing) Episode II gets into more familiar looking characters -people embraced it more because thats what they're comfortable with.

I don't really understand the logic behind the defense here. You're defending lil' Jakes bad performance by saying its okay since he was a kid. In other words, it was a very poor choice by mr. lucas to start off the saga with a seven year old anakin since everyone knows child actors stink.
Don't even attempt to defend jarjar's appearance. The defense: its okay for jar jar to suck since trilogy characters like solo, chewie, and vader were so cool. What? jar jar still is terrible! and will forever exist in a movie with "star wars" in the title!
I was sure ready for a new star wars movie. I really don't think it would have been too terribly hard to make it a good one. First, Lucas should have actually watched the trilogy so there would be continuity between the prequels and the trilogy. Maybe since Lucas had so little to do with the trilogy, he really didn't know the storyline afterall.

Jayspawn
10-20-2004, 09:16 PM
I dont stand corrected.

stillakid
10-20-2004, 10:00 PM
Green is Blue in JS's universe. :crazed:

Devo
11-02-2004, 10:20 AM
I dont stand corrected.

Nor do prequel haters. This is opinion we're dealing with. Neither side can understand how the other side can possibly hold the opinion that they do. It just happens that more people probably have the opinion that the prequels are inferior to the OT and arguably more people think the prequels are just outright crap.

Billiam86
11-08-2004, 09:27 PM
as time goes on, I'm beginning to like Episode 1 more and more

joe-da
11-30-2004, 03:56 PM
Loved Episode I then.... love it now!
(same with Episode 2)

Lord_Setnom
12-03-2004, 01:14 AM
I don't think we ALL hate episode 1 it's just that some of us feel it's too much of a commercial "let's sell tons of Darth Maul mechandise and sneak in a STUPID character for 5 years old to like (actually I've come to find they hate him too for the most part)" thing.

The story doesn't explain a whole lot of things nor do we see a bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan which is rather important. Hell even the so called relationship with Padme seems dull!!!! And then we get more priceless material to be forgotten in the next installment. Midiwhatrians???? Jedi Trials????What the b----ind hell is that about? Oh and Sebulba? please... Even JAbba the Hutt looks lame in this movie. No way that guy would scare a smuggler who manages to keep his cool with a funny looking alien pointing a gun at him across a table at a cantina, he's just a fat slob who likes pod racing

princethomas
04-10-2005, 11:24 PM
I agree with JaySpawn as to why people struggled with Episode 1. It was new and hard to identify with. Alot of people have this problem when their favorite band puts out a new album. The music sounds like their style and the voice sounds like their singer, but they dont know the words so its awkward to get into. This happens to me. I usually listen to a new cd several times over the first week or so and then I usually put it away for a bit. Then I go back to it later and if sounds more familiar.
I agree that it was tough to accept a star wars movie with nobody we recognized in it. Accept R2-D2.

As for Jar Jar. It was the same for me. I was a little put off at first. I saw the movie 8 times at the theater and I tolerated him. But after I went away from it. And I got it on video months later, it seemed familiar. And I like Jar Jar just fine. Now he is actually one of the characters I like.

Turambar
04-17-2005, 02:11 PM
Using the music analogy, I thought the problem with the movie was it didn't sound like their style and the voice didn't sound like the singer.
Despite forcing in familiar images and phrases, it struggled to ever develop its own identity.
There were many burning questions to be answered. Lucas even promised it would answer the "why do some jedi disappear" question. Instead, he answered no questions and created tons more. What are midi'slijfesns, whats the living force, why does darth maul want revenge, why does a 7 year old become obsessed with a 14 year old he only knew for a couple days, why does palpatine want to take over the galaxy, what is this "balance" thing, how do you bring balance, why do the jedi care about the balance, etc, etc.

LTBasker
04-17-2005, 03:57 PM
Okay, here's my problem with Episode 1. This may get kind of random because I really have too much to say and can't really think of a good way to spill it all out.

Mind you, I completely enjoyed this movie in theaters but as it sunk in I started seeing it's flaws, however I do still enjoy watching it.

Anyways, the most critical flaw with TPM is the time-span. A 10 year leap between the first movie and the second movie is way too much time to cover, especially when you're dealing a story like this.

We get introduced to little Anakin and have to go through all his little boy attitude and such, but why? He's an adult the next time we see him. What happened to character development? He's already developed as a completely different person by AOTC, and we don't even know what went on during those years. He goes from some fun-loving kid that is looking out for everyone he knows to some selfish brat that's an adult.

Anakin should've been 13 or so, then 14-16 in AOTC and an adult in ROTS. This would've allowed for better character development and not been so random when you compare TPM to AOTC and ROTS. Look at how Luke developed in the OT, he went from whiny farmboy to kickbutt Jedi and we saw him develop nearly the whole time.

Anyways, enough of that. Now onto the rest of the redudancy, first let's look at the only other element of this movie to effect the rest of the movies- Palpatine. Ok, so we see his rise into power and such and that's actually one of the GOOD things about this movie. The only reason it's really a reason to hate it is because it's only of two things that was really important. However, we had to deal with the whole Sidious/Palpatine issue. Was Sidious Palpatine? Tons of people figured it out early, how alot of people (myself included) figured if it was blatantly obvious then surely there was going to be a twist? We even got to AOTC with the same charade going on. What was the point of this?...It's really not surprising if that's what was the general opinion from the beginning. Just reveal it in TPM and be done with it.

The Podrace. Ok, this was REALLY cool that they were able to pull it off. But what was the point? We learn through Podracing that Anakin can use the force a little bit, ok good and this somewhat supports Obi-Wan saying "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy." However this really didn't count as a star pilot, nor did Obi-Wan even see it happen. (As far as we know) This leads to nothing in the rest of the film, and it doesn't even have an effect in AOTC except a minor line with Anakin.

The Naboo battle versus the Trade Federation. This was pretty intense in itself, however what effect does this have on the rest of the movies? None. The Trade Federation was "defeated" at the end, but only to be more powerful at the end.
True this happened in the OT with what we thought was the Empire being defeated by destroying the Death Star, then they came back with even more force. (No pun intended)

However what happens in the next movie? The Trade Federation is pointless. Nute Gunray is still a clueless weasel, but now just a background character. The only reason the Trade Federation is even linked is because of their Battle Droids, but these droids are being made by the Geonosians. Where is the importance of the TF? Why wasn't it just Geonosians in TPM? Rune Haako and Nute Gunray become redudancies after all we saw of them in TPM. Rune Haako doesn't even make it to the next movie.

The Trade Federation accomplished NOTHING even though we had to go through all this with them. They got their butts handed to them by a 9 year old "accidently" flying into space. Anakin wasn't even reccomended by the Jedi to help with the fighter forces, even after his piloting skills during the pod-race. This leads to...

Anakin defeating the Trade Federation battle ship. This whole battle was obviously supposed to be a "homage" (or repeat) of the Rebellion making a last-ditch effort to save Yavin IV by doing an attack on the Death Star and the pilot, whom nobody expected, was to defeat it. However, Luke was there because he was a pilot, Anakin was there because he activated an auto-pilot accidently. (Their pilots can't fly?)

During the whole scene we get a ton of annoying lines from Anakin as he tries to figure how to fly the ship (best star pilot in the Galaxy?) and accidently flies into the hangar bay of the Trade Federation ship. Surely there should've been some shielding to stop enemy ships? But I digress.

Anakin decides to fire off torpedos, when he just happens to be in a hangar bay that is somehow openly housing a very explosive piece of equipment. (Surely this should've been protected in somewhere other than a hangar bay?...) All of this based entirely on accident. But what does this lead to in the next film? Nothing. It hasn't even delayed the fall of the Republic because Palpy just twists Amidala mind anyways.

Does Anakin get any higher respect because of this? Not that we know of, in the next movie it's not even mentioned. Do we see Naboo pilots later helping the Republic? Nope, they're non-existant now. The only time we even see anything related to Naboo forces are those soldiers worthlessly protecting Padme on Coruscant and the fighters that are destroyed at the beginning of AOTC.

Yet so much emphasis was put on the Naboo forces during the space battle in TPM, in fact it was pretty much treated like the Naboo fighter was the "new" (or old) X-Wing equivelent.

Queen Amidala. This is a nice set-up for Princess Leia, however all of this Queen stuff becomes redudant by the next movie as has actually already been pointed out. But the Queen stuff really isn't important, the biggest thing we really see her do is alliance with the Gungans and get Palpatine into the Chancellor's position. However both of these feats become redudant.

By the next movie, the only Gungan we see is Jar-Jar. We don't even see a Gungan represenative on Naboo when Padme talks to the Queen even after the HUGE begging she did to get the Gungans to ally with the 'human' Naboo people. Surely they should've been included by 10 years later?

Now also the redudancy with her getting Palpy into Chancellor position has to do with Jar-Jar. Padme's doing a vote of no confidence on Valorum seems like such a huge deal (for Padme's character), however Jar-Jar actually accomplishes a much higher feat in AOTC as he gets an even more reluctant senate to grant Palpy even HIGHER power.

Now for my last redudancy point (I'm not going into a whole thing about the midichlorian issue...)- Darth Maul. This guy was the new Darth Vader, he had a wicked attitude, look and even weapon. He even kills a Jedi (homage/copy of Obi-Wan dying in ANH?) which is about the only possible important part about his inclusion because it gets Obi-Wan into Knighthood earlier. (This could've happened by AOTC anyways though.) Qui-Gon wasn't even important as the only unique thing he did was talk about midichlorians...which became pointless by the next movie. Everything else could've been done by Obi-Wan.

But does Maul's existance or death even effect the latter movies? No. He's an unimportant character for a pointless job- to capture Padme. This was done by Sidious/Palpatine's wishes but all that happens is Palpatine just has BS Padme into helping them...which he was having no trouble doing anyways?

Maul is introduced and killed all in the same movie which doesn't even influence later events. Defeating Maul didn't even make Dooku or Sidious worry in the next movie.

So in closing, the problem with TPM is all the redudancies regarding the biggest things about the movie. If you watched AOTC without TPM you would still be able to understand all that was going on except for why 3PO's there and why Anakin knew Watto. Lucas made TPM way too much of a stand-alone movie, probably to do a homage/copy of the way things happened in the 70's (if it worked once it'll work twice, right?) but it came off as being pointless. Even though ANH was supposed to be just a stand-alone movie, the rest of the OT is built off it's events and all fits together whereas TPM is more like a random story.

Oh..and the Eopie farting. :p

Mad Slanted Powers
04-17-2005, 08:27 PM
I guess I don't understand the comments about TPM being poorly structured and having no plot. To me, the structure of TPM is very close to ANH:

ANH - Imperial Star Destroyer attacks rebel ship. Two droids escape to surface of planet below.
TPM - Trade Federation ship destroys Republic ship. Two Jedi escape to planet below.

ANH - Droids go through some perils with Jawas and Tusken Raiders and troops chasing them. Eventually meet up with Luke, Obi-Wan, Han and Chewie.
TPM - Jedi go through some perils with Gungans and big goober fish and droids chasing after them. Eventually meet up with Jar Jar, the Queen and her entourage.

ANH - Our heroes blast off from Tatooine, encounter star destroyers but escape. They try to head for Alderaan but end up stuck on the Death Star.
TPM - Our heroes blast off from Naboo, encounter the Trade Federation blockade but escape. They try to head for Coruscant but end up stuck on Tatooine.

ANH - Our heroes meet up with Princess Leia and eventually are able to escape. However, just before that, Darth Vader meets Obi-Wan, there is a lightsaber duel and Obi-Wan is killed.
TPM - Our heroes meet up with Anakin and eventually are able to escape. However, just before they leave there is a lightsaber duel between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon. No one is killed here, but this is where Anakin first meets Obi-Wan.

ANH - Our heroes go to Yavin and prepare for the final battle. Then the fighters head toward the Death Star for the big showdown.
TPM - Our heroes go to Coruscant to try to resolve the situation. That doesn't work so they head back to Naboo for the final battle.

From here, the ending of TPM is more like ROTJ, with several battles going on at once.

ROTJ - Luke with Vader and the Emperor, Lando and the space battle, Han and the rest on Endor.
TPM - Jar Jar and the Gungans vs the droid army, Anakin and the others in the space battle, Padmé and her people going after the viceroy, and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul.

In both ROTJ and TPM, things get bad for everyone in all the battles, and then things turn around and our heroes come out victorious, except for the loss of Qui-Gon.

So, I guess it would be fair to criticize TPM for being unorignal.

I never really had a problem with the midichlorians. Perhaps it takes some mystery away, but it still doesn't explain how the Jedi are able to hear the midichlorians 'speak' to them, or how they are able to turn the knowledge of midichlorians into knowledge of telekinesis.

Jar Jar was annoying at first, but became less so as the movie went on. Plus, he is supposed to be annoying. There was an excellent essay on theforce.net at one time called "In Defense of Jar Jar". It did a great job of explaining how Jar Jar fits into the structure of the classic myths that Joseph Campbell describes and Lucas was trying to emulate. He even explains how both instances of scatological humor are directed at Jar Jar, thus further associating Jar Jar with being this lowly disgusting frog-like character. Of course, in many of the classic fairy tales and myths, the princess must kiss the frog to get the prince. Here, Amidala must ask for help from Jar Jar to help get her planet back.

The acting didn't bother me much. It may not have been the best, but I thought Liam was great as Qui-Gon, as was Ewan as Obi-Wan. If I recall, people didn't particularly care for Mark Hamill as Luke, and people don't care for Hayden as Anakin. So maybe this is just the way the Skywalker men are. People who act like they are being portrayed by a bad actor. I still don't see what the big deal with "Yipeee" is. He's a 9 year old slave boy who is excited to get off work and go home.

I will admit that after seeing TPM the first time, I left feeling a bit...wanting. But I think what it was is that I was so familiar with the OT, it was too much to absorb TPM in one sitting and immediately know it as well as the OT. I eventually went to see it a total of 7 times in the theater, though I was a bit burned out by then. While I do acknowledge some flaws that have been pointed out in this and other threads, I don't think they contradict the OT nor take away from the enjoyment of the film for me. It was a thrill right from the beginning to see real Jedi in action. The destroyer droids impressed me in that scene as well. The pod race scene was quite enjoyable and suspenseful, even though we could predict he was gonna win. I don't think this was trying to please the NASCAR audience, but rather for George to please himself because of his love of fast cars. The whole Coruscant sequence with the senate and Jedi Council was fascinating to see. Finally, the whole final battle sequence was well done (except the part that was pointed out about why they didn't just blast Darth Maul right when they first saw him).

Well, that is my opinion anyway.

stillakid
04-17-2005, 11:55 PM
I guess I don't understand the comments about TPM being poorly structured and having no plot. To me, the structure of TPM is very close to ANH.

There's more to story structure than simple cut and paste scene familiarity. In basic terms, a story is like a row of dominoes where knocking one down sends the rest falling all in turn. A scene exists to advance the story. If nothing happens within a scene to advance the story, then it is a gratuitous waste of time. If character never advances or propels the story forward, it is a useless character. Each scene must tell a bit of the story, advance the story, then logically move us to the next phase where we learn something new and different. Anything in the story that fails to accomplish this is a useless waste of time.

Suffice it to say that while ANH, ESB, and ROTJ fulfilled these requirements in spades, TPM failed miserably throughout. Useless gratuitous sequences and characters from start to go. The structure was a mess as many of the sequences and characters were entirely meaningless.

I think that George is a great visionary capable of pulling together the right combination of elements that manage to touch audiences. What he has proven that he can't do, and has admitted such, is the inability to do anything with those elements. He can't write a viable screenplay and his directing skills are almost non-existent. Because of an intense hate of anything Hollywood, he would rather forego using people who's talents lie where his don't in favor of just doing it all himself out of spite. He still makes his millions but it is the TRUE fans who are left out in the cold due to his short-sightedness. :(

Mad Slanted Powers
04-18-2005, 01:07 AM
There's more to story structure than simple cut and paste scene familiarity. In basic terms, a story is like a row of dominoes where knocking one down sends the rest falling all in turn. A scene exists to advance the story. If nothing happens within a scene to advance the story, then it is a gratuitous waste of time. If character never advances or propels the story forward, it is a useless character. Each scene must tell a bit of the story, advance the story, then logically move us to the next phase where we learn something new and different. Anything in the story that fails to accomplish this is a useless waste of time.

Suffice it to say that while ANH, ESB, and ROTJ fulfilled these requirements in spades, TPM failed miserably throughout. Useless gratuitous sequences and characters from start to go. The structure was a mess as many of the sequences and characters were entirely meaningless.

I guess I don't see the structure as a mess, as it is very linear like ANH. Simple and unoriginal maybe, but not a mess. That's what Lucas likes to do though, recurring themes and motifs. So it was appropriate that the first movie of the prequels mirrored the first movie of the original trilogy.

I guess the only confusing thing to me was that the whole queen decoy thing confused me the first time through. I should have figured it out sooner, as I had the action figures already, but I wasn't really familiar with Natalie Portman and I guess I didn't catch on that the Queen and Padmé action figures were the same person. Also, I wondered how Darth Maul tracked them. Had someone on the ship actually responded to the distress call from Sio Bibble, or was Darth Maul just a good tracker. I don't recall if it was mentioned in the book.

Devo
04-18-2005, 04:53 PM
If you watched AOTC without TPM you would still be able to understand all that was going

Perhaps the best point ever made about TPM. It was a waste of a film. It achieved absolutely nothing to my mind other than set a new standard for lightsaber battles which ROTS has to live up to and better.

Rewriting OT lore also ranks high in my mind as being the ruination of the film, most obviously by having Qui-gon jinn being Obi-wans teacher, OK so what if you can think around Obi-wans words to luke in ESB (Yoda-the jedi master who instructed me), why overcomplicate things? It forced Obi-wan to the background and for what? Qui-gon is killed and won't be mentioned again in the OT era (excepting some future retrospective rewrite on Lucas' part :rolleyes: ). Meanwhile the Obi-wan/Anakin relationship is utterly neglected and the first 10 years of it is offscreen..funny because the way Obi-wan talked about it in ANH I thought it might have been an important story point in this film. Evidently not according to Lucas. Pesky character development, who needs it.