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View Full Version : do you believe there is life in another galaxy ?



Jango Jett
07-16-2002, 05:24 PM
Ive always been curious about life on other planets ? in another
galaxy far away ? there could be other worlds similiar to Earth
out there maybe they might be in the pre-historic era or they
could possibly be far more advanced than we are ? Space is a
very mysterious place, I guess we will never know whats really
out there ? it's mind boggling. :crazed:

QLD
07-16-2002, 05:29 PM
If we are alone, it would be an awfully big waste of space.

Capitan_Moroni
07-16-2002, 05:31 PM
The teachings of my church (the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints) say that there is. So yes, I belive there is.

LTBasker
07-16-2002, 05:54 PM
Yep, why not. Even if not intelligent life, there's gotta be at least plant life or bacteria life.

Jango Jett
07-16-2002, 05:57 PM
I believe there is some form of life out there, because it is a fact
that there are other solar systems and galaxies, every star you
see at night is a sun in another solar system far far away, it
just keeps going and going there is no end ?

Vortex
07-16-2002, 05:59 PM
Odds favor it, and there's a lot going on, being made and destroyed in that universe on a daily basis, so there has to be life some where in some state of being.

Jonna
07-16-2002, 05:59 PM
It would be arrogent to think, with all those planets, that there is not. Sort of like thinking that the Earth is the center of everything.

MikeAndTheBots
07-16-2002, 06:00 PM
its virtually impossible for there NOT to be life. There's some formula that shows the odds of us being alone and the statistic is brain rackingly large (meaning we're not alone). Anyone who thinks there is no other life is just an egocentric, self-centered idiot. Intelligent life is a different story, meaning of those life forms those which can make contact are lower but still, there's proabably more advanced civilizations out there, and less advanced. The main point being there are other civilizations.

Jango Jett
07-16-2002, 06:03 PM
with the current technology it is impossible to travel far enough out there to ever find out what is "Beyond the outer rim". :Pirate:

LTBasker
07-16-2002, 06:14 PM
Too bad NASA wouldn't have the funding to send off more probes like the Voyager ones with better technology and more speed...

'Course we don't want to send off too many, the BORG might catch one and assimilate us all. :eek:

Jargo
07-16-2002, 06:26 PM
I think not. Not in the way that we are or in any recognisable form. maybe amoeba type creatures or some kind of plant type life as in mosses and lichen and bacteria. I think we are some kind of evolutionary freaks and it all went wrong for earth somehow.

I don't believe in creationism so anything relating to deities is out the window far as I'm concerned. Hell, it's just moisture and heavy atmospherics and gravity that holds us trace elements together and stops the atoms flyig off in all directions. We're just carbons and gasses after all. for some reason the electricity produced by certain combinations of trace elements getting together for a party means we achieve some kind of freaky thinking and start getting ideas above our humble station. We are small tiny small blips in the universal melt. I think the life you seek is the life of creation itself. Stars and planets are the liveliest things I see when I stare into the night skies. Don't get more than that from what i can see.

Jango Jett
07-16-2002, 06:31 PM
if there was other life forms on another planet out there, they
could be a totally different species, they might not even look like
a human being ? the same way hollywood likes to portray aliens
from another planet, they are ussually portrayed as being of far
superior intelligence with monster or reptillian physical features.
Thats one reason Im attracted to STAR WARS and science fiction
in general, it makes a person wonder about these things ? :crazed:

Jedi Knightrider
07-16-2002, 06:43 PM
The way I see it, if the universe is never ending, infinite, not only is everything you could even THINK of out there, but every variation of it. Maybe on a planet billions of light years away, there's a planet just like Earth, only it's five minutes ago. Maybe somewhere else, it's 100 million years ago, and the dinosaurs live there. Time travel might only consist of traveling to another planet. I know that this gets into parallel universes (universi?) but maybe there are a million Earths out there that every decision YOU made on this one came out differently. Maybe alternate realities are just one of those infinite Earths. Not only that, but in the infiniteness, maybe right now, in a galaxy far away, Luke Skywalker is taking his first step into a larger world...

Vortex
07-16-2002, 06:48 PM
Well something has to be out there, biped, blob, a-symetrical, whatever, in our lifetime we'll never find out. We're still in our infancy of space exploration and space physics. It will be a long time before man reaches the Moon again, or even Mars. It will be many more generations before they even reach Pluto.

Just recently they discovered that Einsteins theory of Relativity may not apply, and they keep finding these "contrary to the rules" starts, planitary effects and stellar movements so we still have a long way to go to understanding the universe.

So whatever is out there will have to stumble across us, or we'll just have to patiently wait till our bodies and technology improve to haul us over the vast expanses looking for like beings or life in general.

Hasbro'sBountyHunter
07-16-2002, 07:11 PM
I do, however simple or complex the life may be.

The True Maul
07-16-2002, 07:14 PM
I agree with Empperor Jargo :)

DeadEye
07-16-2002, 08:07 PM
I, too, think creationism is a load of crap.

I think there are many advanced civilizations out there, and the surest sign that they exist is the fact that they haven't contacted us--after all, Earth is at the butt end of the galaxy, a backwater planet. And transmissions from our early, corny TV shows went into space. :D

Darth Sidious
07-16-2002, 08:37 PM
If the universe is truely infinite, then there is life elsewhere. I am sure of it, without a doubt. I have heard that if a monkey was put in front of a typewriter, hitting random keys, for 1 billion years he would type the entire works of Shakespeare in order, properly punctuated. If that is possible within 1 billion of anything, than other life is possible with infinite space. I'd go as far as to say there is a planet identical to ours in every way, or that there is a galaxy that is just like the SW galaxy we are so familiar with. :)

Deckard Smith
07-16-2002, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sidious
If the universe is truely infinite, then there is life elsewhere. I am sure of it, without a doubt. I have heard that if a monkey was put in front of a typewriter, hitting random keys, for 1 billion years he would type the entire works of Shakespeare in order, properly punctuated. If that is possible within 1 billion of anything, than other life is possible with infinite space. I'd go as far as to say there is a planet identical to ours in every way, or that there is a galaxy that is just like the SW galaxy we are so familiar with. :)

Your analogy suggests that WE are the works of Shakespeare the monkey typed. In order for there to be OTHER intelligent life, the monkey would have to type up the complete works of Shakespeare TWICE or more. Or more appropriately, he would have to type up the complete works of Danielle Steele and Dean Koontz as well as Shakespeares. I also think creationism is bunk. I wish the world would stop perpetuating that myth by forcing religion on children from their earliest, most impressionable age. It does not broaden their minds, only narrows them into intolerance and hate.

Exhaust Port
07-16-2002, 11:11 PM
I just wish that the entire universe subscribed to the Star Trek vision where every planet is overflowing with large breasted "alien" women who speak English. :D

Jonna
07-16-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by Deckard Smith


I also think creationism is bunk. I wish the world would stop perpetuating that myth by forcing religion on children from their earliest, most impressionable age. It does not broaden their minds, only narrows them into intolerance and hate.

Here, Here! I like you already.:D

Eternal Padawan
07-16-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
I just wish that the entire universe subscribed to the Star Trek vision where every planet is overflowing with large breasted "alien" women who speak English. :D


Nah. They always go for the Captain... :mad:

Wasn't there a mathematical equasion that said the odds of finding a solar system with a planet with the right combination of life sustaining elements that would produce an intelligent species that would not destroy itself before becoming capable of interstallar travel was almost nil.

Jonna
07-16-2002, 11:47 PM
No, actually it (the mathamatical equasion) is N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L. I can't write it corectly in this text, but it can be found at the SETI website.

Jonna
07-17-2002, 10:24 AM
Check this out at CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/07/17/australia.aliens.reut/index.html

DeadEye
07-17-2002, 10:31 AM
Thanks, Jonna! I always knew there would be alien contact in my lifetime! :D
But, what if they're hostile? What if they fire one little beam from their starship onto Earth and it destroys us all? :sur: :eek:

Jonna
07-17-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by DeadEye
What if they fire one little beam from their starship onto Earth and it destroys us all? :sur: :eek:

Maybe it would be for the best! Not to get off topic but things like this really make me want to wipe out all humans.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/16/burned.kitten.ap/index.html

QLD
07-17-2002, 10:50 AM
Jonna,

that story was horrible!

They should drop him on a giant grill. That is sick.

Jedi Knightrider
07-17-2002, 10:52 AM
First off, that kitten thing just ****es me off!!! I hate people...


Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Wasn't there a mathematical equasion that said the odds of finding a solar system with a planet with the right combination of life sustaining elements that would produce an intelligent species that would not destroy itself before becoming capable of interstallar travel was almost nil.

See, this is the problem - what constitutes the "right combination of life sustaining elements?" Humans can't survive deep under the ocean where there's absolutly no light, where the water pressure and/or cold would kill us, but we know that there are fish that live there, organisms thrive in the super-hot sulfur vents. I'm of a "life finds a way" mind. I think scientists hide behind the "life as we know it" card way too much. OF COURSE it won't be life as WE know it. It will most likely be something we would never dream of, might not even be able to see. Don't mean it's not there. Equations are all well and good, but you need to understand a lot more about the workings of the universe before you start plugging in variables...

Darth Sidious
07-17-2002, 11:00 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deckard Smith
[B]

Your analogy suggests that WE are the works of Shakespeare the monkey typed. In order for there to be OTHER intelligent life, the monkey would have to type up the complete works of Shakespeare TWICE or more. Or more appropriately, he would have to type up the complete works of Danielle Steele and Dean Koontz as well as Shakespeares.

Lol...Didnt get the last part. But what I meant was if it is possible for something that "Impossible" to happen in 1 billion years, then why is it so "Impossible" for there to be other life with infinite space? I am not saying we are books. :D

Darth Cruel
07-17-2002, 04:11 PM
I gotta go with yes. I do believe there are other life forms somewhere in the universe. Even up to and including life forms as advanced (but hopefully not as complicated) or moreso than we. But I do not believe in the concept of it being possible to visit back and forth. Just takes to long to make the trip.

Pendo
07-17-2002, 04:46 PM
I also agree with life elsewhere. There are 9 (or 10 according to some sources) planets in our solar system. There are over a billion different star systems in our galaxy alone so that's 9 billion planets. But there are also billions of galaxys, and so on... There are an infinate number of planets and for JUST 1 to be populated with life is nearly impossible, there has GOT to be life somewhere else.
I also have that SETI@Home program where you search for signals from space from your home computer. Anyone else got that?

PENDO!

Lobito
07-17-2002, 05:20 PM
Definitely...i'm more than sure that life out of our planet does exist...why havent they contacted us yet?? well...why havent we contacted them???? Maybe they dont know we exist?? who knows...there are lots of things that are hidden from us...but as i said b4 i'm convinced that we are not alone in this universe.:eek: :D

Pendo
07-17-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Lobito
Definitely...i'm more than sure that life out of our planet does exist...why havent they contacted us yet?? well...why havent we contacted them???? Maybe they dont know we exist?? who knows...there are lots of things that are hidden from us...but as i said b4 i'm convinced that we are not alone in this universe.:eek: :D

Who says they havent contacted us and we havent contacted them. If we have/do contact eachother the governament will keep it under wraps, can you imagine the panic if the government reveals the existence of aliens, many religions will be destroyed and our ways of life and thinking would change. Also the knowledge of there being something 1000 times more intelligent would certainly scare people. I believe that there has been contact and that the government has covered it up, and I also believe 100% in the Roswell story.

PENDO!

Lobito
07-17-2002, 05:34 PM
Who says they havent contacted us and we havent contacted them. If we have/do contact eachother the governament will keep it under wraps, can you imagine the panic if the government reveals the existence of aliens, many religions will be destroyed and our ways of life and thinking would change. Also the knowledge of there being something 1000 times more intelligent would certainly scare people. I believe that there has been contact and that the government has covered it up, and I also believe 100% in the Roswell story.

I believe that also, i just didnt wrote it down cuzz i have no proof to post here, but i agree a 100% with u Pendo.

Pendo
07-17-2002, 05:38 PM
Another thing while were on the subject (OK, now my secret is out - I love researching into UFOs and Aliens, it's kinda like a hobby) I also believe that technology such as the stealth bomber came from alien technology that we borrowed. Early UFO encounters were more like a boomerang shape, similar to the stealth. And ever since the Roswell incident our flight technology has jumped forward! And you've all probably also seen the video footage of military testing on those man-made saucers that could float about 30cm off the ground. We got the technology from the aliens!

Ok I'll shut up now...

PENDO!

anarky
07-17-2002, 05:49 PM
i think the kitten-killer should be tortured to death by cats--or forced to watch the musical by the same name

i think the possibility exists that there are other lifeforms and civilizations--but chances are they're not sophisticated enough to care about us--or are too sophisticated to look down on us

if an advanced, hostile civilization existed that could traverse the space between galaxies, we'd already be dead

Jango Jett
07-17-2002, 07:47 PM
anarky, I believe there are other civilizations out there, and they
probably are similiar to us but they just cant cover the long distances to reach us, they would die out in space before they
could ever reach Earth, there probably light years away ? any
living being just couldnt make the trip, too great a distance and
they may not have the technology, they may have tried but we
will never know ? just because there may be other life forms on
other planets doesnt necessarily mean they are highly advanced
they could be a planet of monkey people or something ? or they
could be like STAR WARs ? or they could be in the dinosaur era ?
I know one thing, if they need to breath and eat like a human,
there is no way they could ever make contact, I think we are
advanced as far as we are ever going to get on earth, life on
other planets will always be a mystery ? :Pirate:

bigbarada
07-18-2002, 01:15 AM
Well, I believe firmly in "Creation" as to the origin of the universe. Namely the creation laid out in the Bible and "no" we are not going to go down that road again.;)

As for life existing "out there," of course it does! Not necessarily in a form we can recognize or measure empirically; but that's just natural human arrogance to think that if something doesn't go out of it's way to prove itself to us, then it doesn't exist or isn't worth knowing.


Anyone who thinks there is no other life is just an egocentric, self-centered idiot.

I love these kinds of comments, who can argue with this line of logic?:rolleyes: Just another example of the "open-minded" proving themselves to be the most closed-minded people of all.

wedgeA
07-18-2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I love these kinds of comments, who can argue with this line of logic?:rolleyes: Just another example of the "open-minded" proving themselves to be the most closed-minded people of all.

Nothing wrong with that, why be open minded toward idiots? To me an indication of intelligence, no matter someone's level of formal education, is the ability to support their assertions. If they can't, I feel they should be told to shut up, go running with a pair of scissors and stop wasting minutes of my life.

I have yet to hear anyone reasonably explain why life outside of Earth is impossible.

Eternal Padawan
07-18-2002, 09:07 AM
What bigbarada is pointing out is that anyone whose opinion differs from your narrow point of view is automatically "an egocentric idiot". Hardly conducive to "open-mindedness" on your part. Which, ironically, brands you as an "egocentric, self-centered idiot"

Which is why he loves those kinds of comments with a ":rolleyes:"

And noone has given any evidence that we AREN'T the only ones... Know any aliens?
;)

Jonna
07-18-2002, 10:34 AM
Would someone please explain to me why lately
everything turns into a fight ?
I mean, I love a good argument as much as anyone else, but this is just people throwing mud in any which direction. If we are not open to the view points of others, then our own view point will never expand and grow. I am not saying that one person is right and another is wrong, but if we don't stay open to a logical and rational discussion we will never know.

That's it! Valium for everybody!!!

billfremore
07-18-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Jonna
That's it! Valium for everybody!!!

Mmm valium.
Hey man, everything's cool.
:happy: :crazed:

Jonna
07-18-2002, 11:34 AM
It's all spacey!

No man, not Kevin!

billfremore
07-18-2002, 11:35 AM
Kevin.
That's beautiful man.

DeadEye
07-18-2002, 11:40 AM
Um...what the hell is valium?

Capitan_Moroni
07-18-2002, 11:46 AM
Valium is a pill that makes you all relaxed. They gave it to me like a month ago when I got my wisdom teeth out.

billfremore
07-18-2002, 11:50 AM
Ahh to be young again.

Valium my young friend a sedative that causes dose-related depression of the central nervous system. It's also used for treating anxiety, insomnia, seizures, and muscle spasms.

that's all for today class, make sure to read chapters 3 and 4 and there will be a test on Friday.

DeadEye
07-18-2002, 11:53 AM
A test? Nooooo! I hate tests!

"I killed them. Every last one of them. I hate them! They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! And not just the tests...but the exams...and the pop quizzes!"
:p

bigbarada
07-18-2002, 12:12 PM
Ahem, back to the topic of aliens.....;)

Pendo mentioned something about Roswell, well it just so happens that I knew a retired Air Force test pilot who claimed to have actually test flown the UFO's that crash landed there. He even said that he saw the actual alien bodies. This guy confirmed the suspicion that the stealth program was derived from reverse engineering of alien ships. He also told some stories about his experience test flying the F-111 jets and how the differences in Air Force and Navy controls had caused many crashes of those jets. So his UFO story was mixed in with a lot of old military memories and he regarded both with the same level of seriousness.

Of course, this is all hearsay to you guys since I could be just making this all up for all you know. In any case, I did talk to the guy and that is what he told me, even though his wife didn't really believe him. So, decide for yourself if this guy was a nutjob or not.

Pendo
07-18-2002, 12:16 PM
Thanx for the info bigbarada, I believe what you and he are saying :).

PENDO!

DeadEye
07-18-2002, 12:19 PM
Yeah. It's pretty damn obvious. I mean, it had to be alien technology they derived it from! That's probably the same place we got bar codes, microchips, etc. from.

Jonna
07-18-2002, 12:24 PM
Don't forget micowave ovens!

Pendo
07-18-2002, 12:26 PM
Man is so stupid we probably even got the wheel from Aliens!

PENDO!

Jonna
07-18-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
Man is so stupid we probably even got the wheel from Aliens!

PENDO!

HA!:D

Vortex
07-18-2002, 12:44 PM
Does it exist??...I personally don't know but if you're looking for some hard evidence, there's plent of reference to it from cultures that never met.

Almost every ancient culture ranging from Russia, to Australia, to Central and South America and even over into China, all have some sort of ancient pictograph depicting "foreign" visitors who have either a gold fishbowl/helmet on their heads, or some sort of hovering object they arrived in. Even some of the mythology of these old cultures make some sort of reference to sky visitors who gave them this or that, or taught them this or that. Egypt myth is full of it, as is Mayan and Incan. But take a look for yourself and make your own judgment call. I'm sure if you surf any alien web site you'll come across these cave paintings, stories, and images.

I have to side with Jonna on this. Put your political and religious views aside, and let have a rational debate.

DeadEye
07-18-2002, 01:01 PM
Plus, look at ancient cultures like the Sumerians. They had art and mathematics on par with what we have today. Well, they even had flushing toilets and sewer systems! Now, why wasn't every civilization like that, I wonder? Plus, religion in many places refers to aliens and ships and such. :)

wedgeA
07-18-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
What bigbarada is pointing out is that anyone whose opinion differs from your narrow point of view is automatically "an egocentric idiot". Hardly conducive to "open-mindedness" on your part. Which, ironically, brands you as an "egocentric, self-centered idiot"

Which is why he loves those kinds of comments with a ":rolleyes:"

And noone has given any evidence that we AREN'T the only ones... Know any aliens?
;)

I did not call anyone an "egocentric, self-centered idiot", I just said that why be open minded toward someone's viewpoint it they can't even back it up. Making statements without any means of jusifying them, is a sign of stupidity. Whether it differs from "my narrow point of view" is of no consequence. If someone can back up what they said even if I don't agree with it, I respect that.

Personally, I think that no one can conclusively disprove the existence of life outside earth, and I believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life, not necessariliy in the certainty of it. Hell, I can't be 100% that I'm not some brain in a vat and my life is nothing but eletronic impulses fed to me. :)

Jacen Solo
07-18-2002, 04:52 PM
Sure why not, wether or not its intelligent is another question, most sentient beings on this planet tend to be lacking.

bigbarada
07-19-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by wedgeA


I did not call anyone an "egocentric, self-centered idiot", I just said that why be open minded toward someone's viewpoint it they can't even back it up. Making statements without any means of jusifying them, is a sign of stupidity. Whether it differs from "my narrow point of view" is of no consequence. If someone can back up what they said even if I don't agree with it, I respect that.

Personally, I think that no one can conclusively disprove the existence of life outside earth, and I believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life, not necessariliy in the certainty of it. Hell, I can't be 100% that I'm not some brain in a vat and my life is nothing but eletronic impulses fed to me. :)

You are completely misrepresenting what I said, EP understood my intention completely. I also never made any statements of fact without backing them up. Everything I said was a "belief" not a stated fact. It was Mike and the Bots who posted that "if someone doesn't agree with me/then they are..." statement. That is the close mindedness I was referring to and that is simply lumping people together with a blanket and ill-thought out insult based on emotions he was feeling at the time. The was nothing rational or scientific about that statement. The question posed in this thread was, "do you believe there is life in another galaxy?" Thus people are invited to give their opinions without fear of recourse. Now you are saying that people shouldn't be allowed to do that? If anyone doesn't share your point of view then they are too stupid to be listened to? What is the point of this discussion then if all opinions aren't allowed to be expressed?

Anyways, I'm all for leaving religion and creationism out of this. I have still yet to figure out how it got dragged into this conversation in the first place.

Now, saying that I believe that ETs exist outside of earth is completely different than saying that I think they are responsible for most of our history. I believe the Egyptians and Sumerians were perfectly capable of figuring out mathematics and language on their own. It is said that the Sumerian calender is accurate within one second of our calendar! The ancient Greeks even had computers that did mathematical calculations with pulleys and gears! It's another form of modern arrogance to think that we are somehow smarter than all other people throughout history and that their advancements must have been the result of an outside influence. Especially when many people on the internet can't even use their own language correctly.;)

stillakid
07-19-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


You are completely misrepresenting what I said, EP understood my intention completely. I also never made any statements of fact without backing them up. Everything I said was a "belief" not a stated fact. It was Mike and the Bots who posted that "if someone doesn't agree with me/then they are..." statement. That is the close mindedness I was referring to and that is simply lumping people together with a blanket and ill-thought out insult based on emotions he was feeling at the time. The was nothing rational or scientific about that statement. The question posed in this thread was, "do you believe there is life in another galaxy?" Thus people are invited to give their opinions without fear of recourse. Now you are saying that people shouldn't be allowed to do that? If anyone doesn't share your point of view then they are too stupid to be listened to? What is the point of this discussion then if all opinions aren't allowed to be expressed?

Anyways, I'm all for leaving religion and creationism out of this. I have still yet to figure out how it got dragged into this conversation in the first place.

Now, saying that I believe that ETs exist outside of earth is completely different than saying that I think they are responsible for most of our history. I believe the Egyptians and Sumerians were perfectly capable of figuring out mathematics and language on their own. It is said that the Sumerian calender is accurate within one second of our calendar! The ancient Greeks even had computers that did mathematical calculations with pulleys and gears! It's another form of modern arrogance to think that we are somehow smarter than all other people throughout history and that their advancements must have been the result of an outside influence. Especially when many people on the internet can't even use their own language correctly.;)

Everyone sit down! I actually agree with BB. :) This last post anyhow. ;)

One things for certain: nothing's for certain. There is still no definitive proof of aliens, God, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, or fairies. They are all part of ancient and modern mythical oral and written tradition. Does this mean they aren't true? Not necessarily. Unlikely? Perhaps. But not a one of those things has yet to be proven or unproven (at least in terms of the general populace. Who knows what the gvnt is hiding. :rolleyes: ).

It sure would be nice to know that there is other life out there, intelligent or otherwise. Still waiting on proof for that. Even Carl Sagan began to doubt the possiblity of intelligent life elsewhere as the conditions for it to occur appear to be extremely critical. While there are most likely gazillions to the thousands of planets out there, the ones capable of developing life of any kind, much less intelligent life are far fewer. Not to mention, damn far away from here.

Even if life does exist elsewhere, unless it's abundant, finding it and then somehow contacting it will be impossible without a more significant understanding of how this universe actually works. And while it's not an absolute certainty (anything is possible I suppose), humanity will have to shed it's fascination with mythical stories of creation and devote more energy to the actual nuts and bolts of...well, everything.

Face it, one day (far in the future) this star will die. If we want humanity to continue, we better get a move on. God hasn't come down yet to intervene on our behalf, so it's up to us to save ourselves from extinction:dead: . It's a realllllllllllllllly big universe out there. Loooooooootttttttttttts of open space.

wedgeA
07-19-2002, 02:05 AM
bigbarada,

I think that there is a misunderstanding here, I did not intend to infer that because your beliefs may be contrary to my own views, makes you an idiot, or that somehow you should be censored, etc. None of what I said was directed at anything you said regarding your views. Your arguments that I have read are always well thought out, and expressed eloquently.

What I took issue with is your criticism of the comment, stating that we all need to be more open minded toward other views, and everyone should have a voice. As I stated, I am simply not open minded toward baseless statements. To me intelligent people should demand more, and be dare I say less PC about it. It is not a freedom of speech issue, I am not the government and I am not making any law to prevent them from saying what they are saying.

I want to finish by saying that a) I don't necessarily agree with the way that initial statement was phrased either, and b) I apologize if I offended you, and it was never my intention to belittle your beliefs. I think I can illustrate my point best by suggesting that you go over to the aintitcoolnews.com message boards if you have not done so, and read what a lot of them have to spew. After that, if you still feel that we should be open minded to every single viewpoint, then you're a better man than I.

bigbarada
07-19-2002, 02:09 AM
:eek: Stillakid agrees with me? The stars must be aligning or something.;)

It's going to be really tough getting off-planet soon if they keep sending up them damned communications satellites. We're trapping ourselves on this planet with a barrier of satellites!

I still can't figure out how creationism keeps getting brought into this discussion. Two totally separate topics. BTW, it is an individualistic fallacy to believe that since one or two creationists believe there is no life in outer space then all creationists believe that way. I'm a creationist and I am very open to the possibility of life on other planets.

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up, wedgeA. :cool: I now see what you are saying and I realize that I agree with your point completely. My personal philosophy has always been, "Just because someone has the right to express their opinion doesn't necessarily mean that they have anything worthwhile to say."

chewie
07-19-2002, 02:35 AM
Yes. I completely believe there is life elsewhere in the universe. And also intelligent life.

If our earth scientists are correct in thinking that the universe is a few trillion years old, and that our own solar system is just a few billion years old, that leaves a lot of time before us that other planets could have been made elsewhere that have environments suitable for the creation and sustaining of life. I doubt too many planets hold truly intelligent life, as the circumstances required to create it have to be great, but I believe there are probably intelligent creatures far older than man out there.

Eternal Padawan
07-19-2002, 09:58 AM
Can anyone give an example of why the gov't would STILL be hiding alien presence from the general population? We've all seen Close Encounters and MIB and X-Files and are so utterly drowned in Alien Lore that if they broke the news tomorrow we'd all go "ooh" for about 10 seconds and then get distracted by the new lemon scent swifter and the interactive pizza bagel maker. I mean, they mapped the gene sequence last year and everybody got excited for the time it takes me to sneeze.

Call me a skeptic. But a cover-up of that magnitude would have been broken by now, in this information age don't you think? Unless there was nothing to uncover. It's not that I don't believe in the existence of other beings. Heck it'd be cool to think we aren't alone. I'm all for that. But it's equally likely that "life" was a freak occurence under specific conditions and we are alone. Either way, aliens have not landed in New Mexico.

I'm not sure how creationism got brought up either. Higher Powers could have put Aliens on other planets just as easily as they plopped micro organisms on Earth 4 billion years ago.

stillakid
07-19-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada

I still can't figure out how creationism keeps getting brought into this discussion. Two totally separate topics. BTW, it is an individualistic fallacy to believe that since one or two creationists believe there is no life in outer space then all creationists believe that way. I'm a creationist and I am very open to the possibility of life on other planets.


Here's my take on it. "We" spend an inordinate amount of time and resources on religion and the ramifications of it. For instance, this planet currently has a relatively small but very influential group of Islamic militants running around blowing things up in the name of God. Why? Undoubtedly because their parents and society told them what "God" wants this world to be like.

Now, "Christians" and "Jews" look at those guys with disdain and can't understand where they get those bizarre ideas. The answer is, the same place everyone else gets their ideas. Some people make the decision to blow stuff up, others go on "missions." Different approaches, same desired result: "believe like I do."

Anyway, because of this, our government and governments around the world are forced into spending our tax dollars on elaborate and expensive tactics to defend against those kind of lunatics. Those resources could be better spent on direct aid (food, medicine, etc), education, and "space exploration" (in it's many forms: theoretical research, actual travel manned and unmanned, and programs like SETI).

Something like "Creation" comes up in a discussion like this because the very foundation of the idea is in direct opposition to the spirit of scientific discovery and the advancement of our knowledge. It would be easy to just proclaim that we all got here with a POOF! of magic and then wait around for aliens to visit and drop off some advanced technology. Heck, maybe it happened that way (Creationism+Roswell=2002 technology). Who's to say? It's not extremely likely, however, and the more time and energy that gets diverted by comfortable myths means that it will be just that much longer until humanity can find out if we are alone or not.

mabudonicus
07-19-2002, 10:08 AM
EP- I agree with the fallacy of the coverup theory. What would be the point?? (well, unless there were people GAINING from the ignorance of the public...)
I must disagree about the "impossibility" of pulling off such a thing, though. I really honestly don't believe that ANY human, Russian or American, has stood on the surface of the moon, and I can't find enough info to actually disprove it, but nor have I seen anything compelling enough (or well documented/stated)enough to prove it to myself, either. *sound of BIG can opening*:)
I wouldn't be surprised if there were even life in our solar system, but as has been said already in this thread, it prolly wouldn't look like anything we'd call life, may not even be "percievable" to us, as it might be multidimensional, or made of stuff that, say, light doesn't hit, or whatever. (NO, I didn't base these theories on Marvel comics or HP Lovecraft stories...or did I?)

Jonna
07-19-2002, 10:20 AM
Interesting news on CNN this morning about space travel:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/07/19/planet.freeway/index.html

PS Mabudon, I got your PM and will get back to you when I can from my home computer. I believe that I have an answer to your question about Reality. I would start a thread on it, but I am sure that some nut would accuse me of being egotistical for thinking that I have the answer to that question. It is the sort of thing that is so simple, of course only after you know it, that it is mind numbing. Looking forward to the discussion.

EricRG
07-20-2002, 01:01 AM
Since I've not actually seen hard proof of "extraterrestrial" existance (in the traditional sense), I don't believe in it. As much as I'd like to know there were others out there, until the aliens come knocking on my door to introduce themselves. ;) I don't believe in the traditional vision of aliens; other forms of life as we know it. Having said all that, I believe that there is an energy in everything (sound familiar?), that there are multiple universes, and that this complexity extends infinitely in both directions. What I mean by that is that even tiny atoms are galaxies unto themselves (they behave strangely just like planets (electrons) and stars (nucleus with neutrons/protons)). Who knows what sorts of "life" might be found there if we knew how to look? Which brings me to the definition of life. As a biologist, I study "life", that being the carbon-based life forms we find here on Earth. Who knows what form life or intelligence can actually take? That's one of the cooler things about Star Trek - that life forms are not restricted to bipedal pseudo-humans. So anyway, I believe in a "multiverse", an infinite fractal, with complexity extending infinitely both inward and outward. I think that if something is true on one level, it can be applied at all levels. As far as space travel and time travel, space and time are the same thing (a continuum). The physical universe is created through a distortion of space and time. I think that time travel may well be one day possible, and that the possiblity of travelling through vast distances in space may well be possible via wormholes...locations in the universe linking one location with another. And as far as aliens visiting us, I think that if a greater intelligence ever visited us, it would be devastating to us. Think of what every single "advanced" civilization has done to relatively "primative" civilizations right here on Earth. We'd be luckiest if they just wiped us out. All just my humble opinion...or perhaps just too much quantum physics and science fiction.

bigbarada
07-20-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by stillakid

Something like "Creation" comes up in a discussion like this because the very foundation of the idea is in direct opposition to the spirit of scientific discovery and the advancement of our knowledge.

From your point of view, of course. I don't see it that way at all. Don't lump us all together as being close-minded or ignorant simply because we believe in God and believe that He created the world. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Unless, you're just trying to pick a fight......again.:rolleyes:

stillakid
07-20-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


From your point of view, of course. I don't see it that way at all. Don't lump us all together as being close-minded or ignorant simply because we believe in God and believe that He created the world. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Unless, you're just trying to pick a fight......again.:rolleyes:

I never said anything of the sort and I have never attempted to pick a fight.

And believing in God and that He created the world is entirely different from having a literalist belief in the Holy Bible. I actually do believe that God created everything around us, but believe that He (It) is much more subtle, creative, and intricate than simply POOFING! things into existence. So maybe I do believe that literalists are "close-minded and ignorant," but I also recognize that not a one of us was there at the beginning and it takes measured research to backtrack the most likely avenue of our existence...not only here on Earth but the existence of Everything. Figuring that puzzle out may lead to the discovery of other life out there in the Universe. However, if we just sit around telling our ancient stories of religion and wait for "them" to show up, humanity may just find itself extinguished when our Sun finally fizzles out.

stillakid
07-20-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by EricRG
And as far as aliens visiting us, I think that if a greater intelligence ever visited us, it would be devastating to us. Think of what every single "advanced" civilization has done to relatively "primative" civilizations right here on Earth. We'd be luckiest if they just wiped us out. All just my humble opinion...or perhaps just too much quantum physics and science fiction.

I may be mistaken, but for the most part, don't "superior" civilizations kill off most of the "inferior" population, but allow a small fragment to survive and be assimilated into the "advanced" culture?

Not a bad way to go...if the aliens are from Planet Supermodel! Bring em on!:D

2-1B
07-20-2002, 02:15 AM
Life in another galaxy? Sure, maybe, . . . it's possible, but I'll be dead before we figure it out, so I'll wait until then to learn of any neighbors we have. :)

A few comments on the topic though:

1) They're not covering anything up, because what we "know" from eyewitness reports is nothing worth covering up . . . aliens are coming down to dig around in the rectums of innocent humans? Oh, okay, sounds like they have important research to do, good thing we covered up those crash incidents. :rolleyes:

2) IF any intelligent lifeforms HAVE visited us in the past, why the hell would they come BACK for more viewings? Jeez, if I went to a planet and saw so many of the indiginous beings killing EACH OTHER, what kind of intelligent life would want to be within millions of miles of such a place?
Many humans can't even get along with each other, I think Jar Jar said it best, "don't 'spect a warm welcome."

3) Back to the interstellar colonoscopies - what is causing so many people to believe they've been abducted and treated this way? Some sort of group psychosis maybe, or more likely as these tales are passed around it becomes a way of blocking some sort of traumatic experience. Life can kick you HARD some times, so maybe it's easier to blame it on a curious alien proctologist? :confused:

As a kid, I loved following eyewitness reports and the like, and I always enjoyed a good alien story on Art Bell, but if they've been visiting for 50 years, there should be some solid evidence, not wacky tales of abduction and eyewitness reports OF evidence.
I want to see one of those alien bodies on display like Lenin, not just on (a clearly amateur :D ) home video.

I know this looks sarcastic, but I really am curious as to how this whole thing got to this point. Especially the probing part. :rolleyes:

stillakid
07-20-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


I know this looks sarcastic, but I really am curious as to how this whole thing got to this point. Especially the probing part. :rolleyes:

My astronomy professor back in Ohio had an interesting way to look at it. He placed the "sun" at the center of our lecture hall. For a sense of scale, he placed the Earth in an orbit around the outside walls of the hall (approximately 100 ft across). Pluto would be at the Student Union across campus (approximately 1/4 mile away).

The nearest solar system to us would have been somewhere in Texas.

The question he posed was, given our current knowledge of space and propulsion, if an alien race came from the nearest solar system to our own, what would have made them leave their own planet and head straight for this one eons before single-celled organisms even formed here? The distance is so far, that unless some kind of space warping or something was utilized to cut the travel time, then the motivation for any extraterrestrials to come here would be highly in doubt. Put it this way: if they do exist, there's a better chance that the "Probing Ones" are actually time travelers from our own future than being aliens from someplace else.

Obi-Don
07-20-2002, 05:45 AM
I don't believe that GOD made the universe for us to look at. We are either meant to go out there or there is life out there. I can't believe that we are the only ones here.

wedgeA
07-20-2002, 06:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
[B]Can anyone give an example of why the gov't would STILL be hiding alien presence from the general population? We've all seen Close Encounters and MIB and X-Files and are so utterly drowned in Alien Lore that if they broke the news tomorrow we'd all go "ooh" for about 10 seconds and then get distracted by the new lemon scent swifter and the interactive pizza bagel maker. I mean, they mapped the gene sequence last year and everybody got excited for the time it takes me to sneeze.

A major function of any government is to maintain stability and the status quo. Proof of intelligent extraterrestrial life would certainly affect in some way.

Call me a skeptic. But a cover-up of that magnitude would have been broken by now, in this information age don't you think? Unless there was nothing to uncover. It's not that I don't believe in the existence of other beings. Heck it'd be cool to think we aren't alone. I'm all for that. But it's equally likely that "life" was a freak occurence under specific conditions and we are alone. Either way, aliens have not landed in New Mexico.

Aliens may not have landed in New Mexico, but I do think that it is near impossible for life not to exist outside of this planet. The major key to life as we know it is water, which has a relatively simple chemical make up, and could easily exist outside of Earth. Now whether that life is intellligent, that's another story. Not to mention, life could be possible on a scale that we are completely unaware of.

Eternal Padawan
07-20-2002, 08:16 AM
Water is only part of it. Do you realize how fragile the human body is? Look at the tiny, TINY temperature extremes we can survive in. Exposure below or above a certain temperature and we die. Look at the EXACT chemical make-up of the air we breathe in and out each day. A slight variation in ANY of the compounds (oxygen, nitrogen, etc) and our brains can't function properly and we die. We can only ingest certain things safely. We can only be exposed to certain gravitmetric pressures. Human Beings a precariously balanced on the tip of the stilleto known as survivability. It's not outrageous to think WE are the lucky ones in the universe and the same set of variables has not repeated itself exactly.

stillakid has a point about WHY anyone would visit this planet. We've only been "announcing" ourselves with radio and television waves for the last century or so. Those first broadcasts are just NOW reaching the first other systems, of all the billions of systems it eventually WILL reach. Then you have to wonder if there is anybody with enough technological advancement to recieve and understand those broadcasts. And if they did, there replies won't hit Earth for another century or so. Sure, they might be super advanced and have FTL communication, but we have no means of recieving such a broadcast. We don't have their FTL reciever technology.

So the only way aliens know about Earth is if they dropped us off here in the first place and are checking up on their experiments. To me, that's more far-fetched than the esteemed bigbarada's Creationist argument.

:D Big Smiley to avoid hard feelings. :D

stillakid
07-20-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Water is only part of it. Do you realize how fragile the human body is? Look at the tiny, TINY temperature extremes we can survive in. Exposure below or above a certain temperature and we die. Look at the EXACT chemical make-up of the air we breathe in and out each day. A slight variation in ANY of the compounds (oxygen, nitrogen, etc) and our brains can't function properly and we die. We can only ingest certain things safely. We can only be exposed to certain gravitmetric pressures. Human Beings a precariously balanced on the tip of the stilleto known as survivability. It's not outrageous to think WE are the lucky ones in the universe and the same set of variables has not repeated itself exactly.


Of course it might be possible for other kinds of life to occur and thrive if you take an extreme Darwinian approach. While our kind of life here couldn't survive in a different atmosphere with a far different gravity in a very different climate, maybe some types of organisms adapted enough to survive in that environment. And WedgeA brought up the word "scale." These aliens could be either gigantic or teeny weeny to us. Depending upon the conditions that exist on their own world (gravity, etc) there's nothing that I know of to say that they would have to be built to our scale. Kind of like having a 12" Greedo visit the land of the 3 3/4" playsets. :D Or the other way around. Those visitors probably couldn't survive for very long in our "harsh" environment.

And then we have to take the ever growing theory of multiple dimensions and timelines into account. Then it really gets complicated.

But what the heck do I know? ;)

stillakid
07-20-2002, 09:56 AM
This just occurred to me.

Take a look at the Senate on Coruscant. From the extraneous stuff I've read and from AOTC, that particular galaxy is pretty much mapped out.

A typical Galaxy has what, like a million trillion stars in it? The Senate has like 2000 to 3000 "representatives" tops. Granted, not all the worlds probably have a representative (ie, Tatooine) and some worlds share a Representative, but even with those adjustments, that particular galaxy isn't exactly teeming with life.

It's a fictitious place, sure, but GL is probably closer to the truth than not. Even with some kind of faster than light travel, it would take eons to discover even half the number of new species found in the Senate.

Not to mention that Coruscant somehow had the "right conditions" allowing all those varying creatures to survive without some kind of help.

2-1B
07-21-2002, 09:47 PM
stillakid
Not to mention that Coruscant somehow had the "right conditions" allowing all those varying creatures to survive without some kind of help.
True, in that respect it's not such a diverse place after all. :)


Umm, quick disclaimer about that post I made about the alien probes . . . I saw MIIB today, and when David Cross asks TL Jones "why the probing?" I froze in my seat, hoping nobody on SSG thought I was ripping that off. :D

bigbarada
07-22-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


I never said anything of the sort and I have never attempted to pick a fight.

And believing in God and that He created the world is entirely different from having a literalist belief in the Holy Bible. I actually do believe that God created everything around us, but believe that He (It) is much more subtle, creative, and intricate than simply POOFING! things into existence. So maybe I do believe that literalists are "close-minded and ignorant," but I also recognize that not a one of us was there at the beginning and it takes measured research to backtrack the most likely avenue of our existence...not only here on Earth but the existence of Everything. Figuring that puzzle out may lead to the discovery of other life out there in the Universe. However, if we just sit around telling our ancient stories of religion and wait for "them" to show up, humanity may just find itself extinguished when our Sun finally fizzles out.

I still don't get how you keep making this leap from creationism to alien life on other planets. In fact, you seem to talk around in circles so much in this post that I'm not 100% sure you even know what you are saying. My basic rule is this, argue what you believe. Not what you think you should believe or what you think others believe, but what you believe. I've already stated my views and if that makes me "ignorant and close-minded" in your eyes, so be it.

For one, science does not have all the answers. It is simply the new religion of the technological age. (actually more like an anti-religion, but a religion nonetheless) Science is simply a way of thinking (not the way of thinking) that forms conclusions based on empirical evidence. Since proof is necessary for belief, then belief is limited to the five human senses. Thus, with those constraints, how can science provide the answers to the universe?

Any fact accepted without empirical evidence is no longer science, it is faith. (BTW, 'fact' is simply what we know right now, it is not necessarily 'truth') I'm talking about first-hand empirical evidence. Meaning that unless you actually recreate all of those carbon-dating experiments and physically touch all those fossils, then you cannot believe in them as science. You have just taken all of those "facts" on faith. That goes for accepting an incomplete fossil record based on someone else's supposition. You can't physically touch, taste, smell, hear or see that expert's qualifications (diploma's don't count since they are so easily faked) thus how can you trust their analysis? Correct, through faith.

How is it that even though we have found wreckage consistent with the stories of Noah's ark, it is still considered to be a myth? Yet, there has never been any evidence of the "missing link" ever existing, but Evolutionists still swear that he lived at one point in time. How can a true scientific mind accept that?

In the end it simply comes down to one set of doctrines trying to do away with another set of doctrines. Followers of Science see religion as a threat to progress. Religion is "those people," science is "us." So, Followers of Science want to shut out all teachings of "their" ways and only expose future generations to "our" ways. In other words, wiping out the conflicting doctrine by limiting kids choices and denying them knowledge of their own past.

I guess history does repeat itself, and ignorance will always prevail in the end. Call it what you will (Christianity, Islam, Science, Evolution, Hindu, Wiccan), it's all religion.

(BTW, stillakid, this stopped being about you after the first paragraph. Most of this discussion was a result of some of the comments made on the first page of how religious teachings were the cause of all the world's ills. I kind of went off on a tangent, but it feels great to have finally spoken my mind about all this.)

stillakid
07-22-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I still don't get how you keep making this leap from creationism to alien life on other planets. In fact, you seem to talk around in circles so much in this post that I'm not 100% sure you even know what you are saying. My basic rule is this, argue what you believe. Not what you think you should believe or what you think others believe, but what you believe. I've already stated my views and if that makes me "ignorant and close-minded" in your eyes, so be it.

For one, science does not have all the answers. It is simply the new religion of the technological age. (actually more like an anti-religion, but a religion nonetheless) Science is simply a way of thinking (not the way of thinking) that forms conclusions based on empirical evidence. Since proof is necessary for belief, then belief is limited to the five human senses. Thus, with those constraints, how can science provide the answers to the universe?

Any fact accepted without empirical evidence is no longer science, it is faith. (BTW, 'fact' is simply what we know right now, it is not necessarily 'truth') I'm talking about first-hand empirical evidence. Meaning that unless you actually recreate all of those carbon-dating experiments and physically touch all those fossils, then you cannot believe in them as science. You have just taken all of those "facts" on faith. That goes for accepting an incomplete fossil record based on someone else's supposition. You can't physically touch, taste, smell, hear or see that expert's qualifications (diploma's don't count since they are so easily faked) thus how can you trust their analysis? Correct, through faith.

How is it that even though we have found wreckage consistent with the stories of Noah's ark, it is still considered to be a myth? Yet, there has never been any evidence of the "missing link" ever existing, but Evolutionists still swear that he lived at one point in time. How can a true scientific mind accept that?

In the end it simply comes down to one set of doctrines trying to do away with another set of doctrines. Followers of Science see religion as a threat to progress. Religion is "those people," science is "us." So, Followers of Science want to shut out all teachings of "their" ways and only expose future generations to "our" ways. In other words, wiping out the conflicting doctrine by limiting kids choices and denying them knowledge of their own past.

I guess history does repeat itself, and ignorance will always prevail in the end. Call it what you will (Christianity, Islam, Science, Evolution, Hindu, Wiccan), it's all religion.

(BTW, stillakid, this stopped being about you after the first paragraph. Most of this discussion was a result of some of the comments made on the first page of how religious teachings were the cause of all the world's ills. I kind of went off on a tangent, but it feels great to have finally spoken my mind about all this.)

You know, you're absolutely right. Just about all the theories about the makeup of this Universe (it's creation, it's death, where we came from) are all faith-based at this point because not a one of us was there. That's exactly what I was saying in the previous post.

However common sense can point us to more likely scenarios. What I mean by that is that when someone concocts a theory about anything, we have to take into account the society and culture that they existed in at the time. So when we look at a story of Creation, and take all the good science we have now into account and couple it with an understanding of the world those writers lived in then, it doesn't take too much effort to see it for the primitive naive fiction that it is. For instance, the Noah Flood story was most likely based on an event in a relatively isolated geographical area. Ergo, the "world" that those writers knew was being "destroyed."

Anyhow, take that idea to the 1950's when our society was a bit on edge with the Soviets. "We" were looking for Communists everywhere as if they were the Boogeyman. Technological advancements were coming fast and furious. The world was changing very quickly. Somebody sees some lights in the sky and bam, UFO stories begin. All it takes is one to start some kind of hysteria then it becomes difficult to tell the "credible" reports from the others. But again, it's another theory, but we have to wonder why only the kookiest of those in the world have managed to see these things. There haven't been a lot of PhD grads coming forward with reports. And no really clear photos either. They're using the same cameras that are used to shoot before-and-after Dexatrim ads.

In short, just like literally believing in the Bible stories, UFO's may be a fun and oversimplistic idea that gain momentum over time because our ordinary lives are mundane enough that we all seek the extraordinary where we can find it.

stillakid
07-22-2002, 10:35 AM
And something else you said got me thinking. Is science a religion? I don't think so. Here's why.

Here's the question: How many teeth do you have and where do they come from?

Religion would answer the question like this: God created your teeth to chew with so that is enough so long as you use them for good.

A Scientist would open his, or someone else's mouth, and count them. The result: a solid repeatable number. Where do they come from? A scientist would look at teeth that have fallen out or use X-Rays or perhaps an autopsy to examine the root structure and see how they exist in the mouth. Modern techniques in DNA and genetic mapping may allow us to actually find the genes the "create" teeth out of the "stuff" we're made of.

So, teeth is a fairly easy one to look at. It's hard for a "religious literalist" to dispute the science when they themselves can open their own mouth and count their own teeth. Researchers are still developing new ways to test and probe and measure this Universe and everything in it, but it's all the same process.

Religion, on the other hand, is done. It needs no further information beyond a belief in God to "explain" everything. Moses was apparently alone when God appeared as a burning bush. The Jesus stories were written years after his death. The Golden Plates that Joseph Smith were given were conveniently "taken" back to Heaven: all untestable. All religion needs is a good story to fit the culture. Science admits that it's an incomplete process, not an end unto itself.

Jonna
07-22-2002, 11:12 AM
This thread got really large, really fast. Think I'll wait till I have the time to read it all.

bigbarada
07-22-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

Here's the question: How many teeth do you have and where do they come from?

Religion would answer the question like this: God created your teeth to chew with so that is enough so long as you use them for good.


No, anyone with half a brain would answer, "Count them and then you'll know." Sorry, not a viable example and more than a little bit mocking. But, I forgot, being a believer in God, I'm too stupid and primitive to understand that.:rolleyes: Assuming that past civilizations were somehow stupid because they lived in the past is the ultimate arrogance of our culture today. Assuming that they were somehow incapable of telling the truth on any matter, is simply a way to justify the modern dogma of science. We rewrite the past to justify our present and support the belief that the entire universe was an incomprehensible mystery, unknown to all and mankind didn't start climbing out of the darkness until, coincidentally, just after we were born. This way we can perpetuate the idea that "we" are the ultimate stage of human knowledge and development so that gives us the right, no, the duty, to rid the world of all the ignorance and misinformation perpetuated by religion. We are self-justification at it's peak and the world will be thankful for our sacrifice.

And the Nazi's believed the exact same thing.

It's easy to put the blame on someone else for why we aren't more advanced in space travel. Religion has become the 21st century scapegoat for all the ills in the world. Because we all know that without that pesky religion, we would all be zipping around the cosmos in our X-Wings by now.:rolleyes: Economics have done more to keep us grounded to Earth than any religion ever has.

Anyway, if I am to blame for this cultures lack of progress, then may I ask what you are doing to further mankind's trek into space?

stillakid
07-22-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


No, anyone with half a brain would answer, "Count them and then you'll know." Sorry, not a viable example and more than a little bit mocking.

Not meant to be mocking and an extremely viable example. As crazy as it seems, there was a time in our past when nobody bothered to count teeth. It was assumed that men had more teeth than women because men had larger heads. Crazy, huh? Yeah. Then somebody got the bright idea to actually count them and make a comparison.

And no one has ever suggested that we in the 21st Century know everything. However we definitely are more intelligent than ever before in our past. Show me a guy from the Middle Ages with the know-how to build a computer, or send a rocket to the moon, or heck, make a bicycle. The process of asking questions and then seeking out answers has advanced the intelligence and capabilities of humanity a thousand fold from the "primitive" abilities of even 1000 years ago. Too bad our mindset hasn't kept pace.

And no, religion isn't the only reason for the ills of this world and no one has ever suggested that. Heck, scientific discovery is just as guilty as religion and economics when it comes to spreading death and destruction. On the other hand, those three can probably be equally credited with saving lives and advancing the progress of humanity in one way or another. There is a fine balance to maintain, but to lump science into a pile of other "religions" that you refuse to recognize is just a convenient way to protect your own faith from being compromised.

So a wholehearted YES, "we" are the ultimate stage of human knowledge and development and that gives us the right and the duty to rid the world of all the ignorance and misinformation perpetuated by religion and any other primitive myths that were previously utilized to explain the Universe around us. Religion has a role to play, but using it as a replacement for scientific discovery would be a profound mistake...that is if we wish humanity to survive beyond the lifespan of this planet called Earth. But, then again, maybe we shouldn't...but that's another topic altogether.

Jonna
07-22-2002, 09:21 PM
I would like to have a rational discussion about this, but is just gotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay of topic.

stillakid
07-22-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Jonna
I would like to have a rational discussion about this, but is just gotten waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay of topic.

Pleeeeassssse bring it back! :) I'll start.

I do HOPE that there is intelligent life on other planets.
I WANT TO BELIEVE that aliens have visited our planet.
I WANT TO BELIEVE that people actually witnessed UFO's in our distant past and more recent times.
I have NO IDEA if there is life beyond our planet.

I do BELIEVE that there is some kind of life on other planets.

But until some definitive proof is produced, those desires will have to remain unresolved. :( It would be staggeringly incredible if some kind of proof of alien* life came forth in our lifetime.

*not necessarily "intelligent." Even the existence of otherworldly bacteria would be absolutely amazing. The implications could literally change the priorities of humanity overnight.

bigbarada
07-22-2002, 11:13 PM
Being too tired to argue and having a Sociology paper to write (it's due on Thursday:eek: ) I really don't have the energy to contest any of stillakid's points and I'm not sure if I'm all that interested in getting dragged into another pointless debate.

So, yes, let's get back on topic. I believe that extra-terrestrial life exists "out there." I can be proven right, but I can never be proven wrong since someone would actually have to physically journey to every planet in every galaxy in the universe to realistically say that there is no other life but our own. Yes, my logic is a little lopsided; but that would be the only way to empirically prove that there is no life on any other planet in the entire infinite universe.

As for the comment that aliens only abduct kooks. Well when we see them it is always after the abduction. How do we know what kind of psychological ramifications an event like that could have on a person? In other words, how do we know that the abduction doesn't turn them into kooks?

stillakid
07-23-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada

As for the comment that aliens only abduct kooks. Well when we see them it is always after the abduction. How do we know what kind of psychological ramifications an event like that could have on a person? In other words, how do we know that the abduction doesn't turn them into kooks?

That did occur to me as I wrote it, but then again, why haven't "they" landed on the White House lawn or something? No stockbrokers, lawyers, etc. It's almost always "hicks" from the countryside. I'm not saying that they aren't telling the truth, but there is a societal lack of confidence in the credibility of those types of people.

And with all the video cameras out there, there should be miles of clear evidence by now...unless of course "they've" left already. But then why would "they" have come during the 1950's, when everybody was jumpy anyway and we were busy testing fantastic new technology (U2, SR71...)?

Of course, there are a couple of "rumours" from former astronauts who claim to have seen "things" while in orbit. I don't know enough about them to say much more. Perhaps someone else can fill in those blanks...

Pendo
07-23-2002, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Of course, there are a couple of "rumours" from former astronauts who claim to have seen "things" while in orbit. I don't know enough about them to say much more. Perhaps someone else can fill in those blanks...

Neil Armstrong and astronaughts on the Apollo 11 and others that have been to the moon claim that there was an Extra Tarestrial base on the far side of our moon which is used for re fueling and overnight staying, etc. Neil Armstrong actually said this himself, and he says that all astronaughts that have landed on the moon have encountered these aliens and have been warned off the moon and thats why there are no more moon landings because it's becoming dangerous. :rolleyes:.

Also on the getting technology from UFOs thing, check out the picture of an experimental UFO made on earth which could fly about a foot off the ground. Where do you suppose we got the technology for that from :sur:.

PENDO!

bigbarada
07-23-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


That did occur to me as I wrote it, but then again, why haven't "they" landed on the White House lawn or something? No stockbrokers, lawyers, etc. It's almost always "hicks" from the countryside. I'm not saying that they aren't telling the truth, but there is a societal lack of confidence in the credibility of those types of people.


And why does our society lack confidence in them? Simple, because they are poor. Maybe the aliens have studied us long enough to know which groups of people we truly discriminate against and pick their victims from there. The poor have, throughout human history been a target of the rich. (The US' prejudice against blacks was simply a way to justify slavery in the early days of the union, the prevailing racism is simply an example of cultural lag. In other words, the attitudes of the people have not caught up with the established rules of our culture)

Personally, I am more prone to believe a "hick from the country" than a lawyer about anything. Lawyers are trained to lie and lie convincingly, that is their job.

Besides, someone with a high status in our society would never publicly announce that he/she had ever seen a UFO. It would be professional suicide. Like that account I heard of the two commercial airlines that encountered a UFO. The entire crew of each plane reported the unidentified object (they weren't scanning each other since the radar read three total vehicles in the area). They were all advised to not say anything about it and the only guy who pushed the issue got his pilot's liscense revoked on the grounds of alcoholism (anyone who has taken an alcoholism interview knows how prejudiced they can be, even if you have never taken a drink in your life, they can ask you the questions in a certain way and "BOOM!" you're an alcoholic).

If this story sounds familiar, one of the opening sequences to Close Encounters of the Third Kind was based off of the actual accounts of this incident.

Jonna
08-01-2002, 02:40 PM
This is more of a science section than anything else so I thought I would put this here.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/08/01/hamburger.star/index.html

SO,BILL! Can your condiment be seen out in the universe? Hu, Hu, Hu!?!?!?!

darthvyn
08-01-2002, 03:51 PM
mmm... interplanetary burger........ hwaaaalllllllllllllllllll

that's pretty cool. see? there's so much out there that we have no idea about, that to think that there isn't intelligent life out there is silly...

thespar
08-01-2002, 04:58 PM
we have not even found all the live here on earth. so why can not there be live on anthor planet somerwhere.

hango fett
08-01-2002, 08:06 PM
i bet we will know for sure by then end of this or the next decade. we really need to start exploring the glaxay A.S.A.P.
h.

JediCole
08-05-2002, 10:30 PM
Let me preface this post with the announcement that I have not read all of the volume of reponses yet, so I apologize in advance if I seem to be repeating the sentiment of another member.

Now, on to my reply...

I personally believe that there must, as a matter of course, be life on other planets.

And the reason I believe this is based on the simple fact that man always tries to second guess the boundries of enviornments that are capable of supporting life. And consistanly getting it wrong. Science held for centuries that life could not exist in the deep seas, but that was dismissed in the last century, though the sea floor was considered to be devoid of life, especially in the Abyssal Zones, the deepest points of the sea, where no light penetrates. And yet in recent years the phenomenon of volcanic vents, spewing life-giving minerals and nutrients into a uniqe eco system, teeming with life. Furthermore, science held that no living organism could exist in the acidic and unforgiving environment of the human stomach. However, in recent years it has been discovered that many ulcers are caused by the presence of living microorganisms.

I reference these two examples primarily due to the fact that they are the most recent examples of the long-standing history of scientific mis-interpretation of our world and universe.

A little off topic, but related none the less is the ame phenomenon in all sciences. I have long contended that there was nothing that prevented the ancient Greeks or Egyptians, or Victorian era Europeans from develping the automobile or nuclear power There is no component of any technology that we enjoy today that simply fell out of the sky in recent centruies. It was only an understanding of science, or more accuratly a lack of understanding that prevented such advancement. It seems that the sciences reach a point and stop, seeming to declare that everything that can be known has been discovered. At the turn of the 20th century, the head of the U.S. Patent Office was reported to have suggested that his department be dismantled, declaring that everything that man could possibly invent had already been invented. I am sure he would be aghast at the millions upon millions of patents that have been awarded or are pending since his announcement was made. Truly a man behind his time!

And since there is a long, rich history of declaring that we now, finally, know all there is to know of everything simply supports my belief that there must certailnly be life on other planets.

Now, I do need to make a distinction between life and "intellegent" life. As I stated, there is seemingly imposible life at the sea floor, however, I don't supsect pale white shrimp or microorganisms thriving in a business man's stomach are going to create transportation, computers, or technologies. Life certainly exists on other planets, but does intellegent life exist there, or are there planets teeming with insect or mammal-like organisms? Or perhaps crawling with microscopic life. And perhaps here and there, something akin to what we call intellegence. And perhaps some that have reached a technological level similar to owr own, perhaps even surpassed it.
I cannot make a good determination on that aspect of life, but it appears that nothing is truly impossible when it comes to "life" and where it can be found.

scruffziller
08-06-2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
If we are alone, it would be an awfully big waste of space.
That perspective is a very "human" observation and interpretation. You could still say that even if every planet in the universe had life on it. Why there is all this space is of God's own perogative and purpose, none for us to judge. As for the actual life on other planets. It may be possible. I personally believe these sightings may be nothing more than supernatural phenomena or top secret government projects.

Exhaust Port
08-06-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by scruffziller
Why there is all this space is of God's own perogative and purpose, none for us to judge

Who's to say that this isn't a very "human" observation and interpretation? (God that is)

billfremore
08-06-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Jonna
SO,BILL! Can your condiment be seen out in the universe? Hu, Hu, Hu!?!?!?!

Yup.
The amazing flavour of mustard is known from here to the Horsehead galaxy.

MUSTARD
Voted condiment of the millenium by the Intergalactic Edible Consumption Board.

Jonna
08-06-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by billfremore


Yup.
The amazing flavour of mustard is known from here to the Horsehead galaxy.

Funny you should mention horses because the parts that they can't make glue out of or eat is what they make mustard out of.:p

billfremore
08-06-2002, 01:10 PM
Oh yeah and the waste left over form that is refined, strained through dirty gym socks and a good sized portion of that gunk under the fridge is added and then stirred with antifreeze and allowed to age for 3 minutes.

and that boys and girls is where Ketchup comes from. :D

scruffziller
08-07-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port


Who's to say that this isn't a very "human" observation and interpretation? (God that is)

Then we would have nothing to worry about if it is. But if it isn't.............look out.

Exhaust Port
08-07-2002, 09:54 PM
I think I got that same line from some religous folks at my door about a year ago. :rolleyes:

scruffziller
08-08-2002, 10:26 AM
Actually to make my statement without the deity factor (forgive me moderators). Humans did not create the universe(at least not at our evolutionary state). We have barely even scratched the surface of what we think we know. I have never built a rocket, I have never performed brain surgery, I did not invent or even work on the Stealth Bomber. It would be arrogant of ME, to say ANYTHING in of an opinion of any issue with the previous subjects. The universe is no different. Interpretaion accuracy is only as valid as your experience.

Exhaust Port
08-08-2002, 12:08 PM
Not necessarily, you don't have to know something to interpret it. I can't cook worth a darn but I'm pretty good at telling someone when the food isn't cooked right. I can't build a car from the ground up but I could tell you if it was put together wrong. Both your examples and mine are skills. Whether you can do it or not doesn't mean that we don't know if it's being done right or wrong. I know if a marksman is bad if he can't hit the target even though I might have never shot a gun myself.

Other intellectual "skills" such as designing a Stealth Bomber are similar. We can look at the final product and see if works. If the radar picks it up than I know it doesn't work. No human built the sun but we can examine it and see how it works. We don't need to know how the "creator" or God did it to perform an accurate examination of it.

scruffziller
08-08-2002, 12:48 PM
That is true but I do not believe that the universe is that simple.
Nor do I believe that we are close to knowing if we know what conclusions we have come to are correct or incorrect. As for your analogy of the fact you know some things to examine to make a judgement. I am talking about the DETAILED analysis. The part where you would KNOW or DON'T KNOW if a car is put together correctly. There is where I believe the notion of "if we are all there is, it is a big waste of space" lays. And yes you can interpret, but are you interpreting correctly? From your limited experience with cooking but long experience of tasting would not tell you how to cook. You may think regular vanilla extract will do just fine, but the recipe requires French Vanilla. I know I have been there with my mom. Your "basic" understanding does not grant you the keys to the door of the rest of the knowledge, but requires additional education and the hunt for the keys. Much like our "BASIC" understanding of the universe. We try to understand things with only our small intellects. It is immposibble to know the truth until we reach that level. If you knew I liked the color blue and I came running and told you excitedly that I bought a new car and that is all I told you at the moment. Would you know what color the car is?

Exhaust Port
08-08-2002, 01:56 PM
No, but if you said that you liked blue cars than there would be a pretty good chance that your new car would be blue.

Those BASIC knowledge points are the building block for our interpretation of our immediate world and beyond. A new born baby will most likely react to a burnt piece of toast as I would. Yes, I have almost 30 years of tasting experience over that infant so why would our reaction be the same?

I might not know what ingredients it takes to make a cake but I could still tell if you didn't use French Vanilla vs. Plain Vanilla. Your right, I couldn't tell you how to cook but we're not questioning the "means" by which life on other planets would exist. All we know is if you add enough of the right elements together in the right pot we end up with what we have today.

Outside of the human element we see many other BASIC building blocks. Gravity, light, different elements, different states of matter. We have water on our planet as well as other planets/moons in our solar system. It's fairly safe to say that its going to exist somewhere else in the Universe. We have weather on our planet as well as others in our solar system (ie Jupiter). It's fairly safe to say that it exists somewhere else in the Universe. Nothing that our eyes have seen has made us think that the Universe is different from our little corner. All of the elements and laws of Physics that exist here will exist out there.

Your right, everything we understand about our small little planet isn't a guarantee that everything out there plays by the same rules. But every step along our evolution we have encountered the same constants. Man was fearful of what was beyond the next mountain range. He finally crossed it and it was the same. Asia was the same as Europe/Africa. Beyond the horizon was an unknown and man was fearful. He finally crossed it and it was the same. We've flown in our atmosphere and it was the same. We constantly fly faster and faster and it's the same. Near space is the same. The moon was the same. Space probes have found our solar system to all be the same. What we've witnessed through telescopes is the same. So if everyone is playing by the same rules as we are than there is a pretty good chance that those same rules will produce life again. We don't have to understand the rules for them to work.

scruffziller
08-09-2002, 10:04 AM
To sum up what I am trying to say, probably would be easier if we were face to face rather than at posts. I am basically saying (in as few words as possible), an individual (whoever or whatever) has no credible basis in forming an opinion of a subject
they only think they know something about. I know, I am guilty of this too. But I do make a consious effort to know where I stand on that line and try my darndest to not be hypocritical. If you can't tell I have had a long history of dealing with people that do this. Kind of like (you mentioned building a car) having someone try to tell you how to do something on the car that you know they REALLY don't know what they are talking about and just aggrevate you to death. Basically "laymen" that are trying to be experts. My brother is a computer tech and has to deal with really annoying business men who try to tell them how to do their jobs. The business men are trying to use a limited frame of info of computers to figure out what can be done or should be done to fix the problem. The one guy that my brother loathes could not understand why his individual favorite songs from several CDs could not be recorded individually onto a single CD like a tape. I don't know how far technology has progressed but that particular model and software could not and he was baffled that it couldn't be done. I have a friend who will discuss politics and have an opinion about things but he would refuse to watch the news, read the newspaper, or even try to stay informed in anyway. The only thing he would have are some things that he heard in passing someone talking about or heard as he was walking through the room as his parents were watching the news. He would form opinions about things going on in the world from half butchered info. That is how rumors start. He is really annoying to discuss things with. You basically have to rework the info you know over him for 5 hours. And when he does get it, he replys with a uhhh.......uhhhhhhh.......oh..... i wasn't aware of thaaaaat............. (I would then say)"I'VE ONLY BEEN BEATING YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH IT FOR THE LAST 5 HOURS!!!!!!!!!!"
It's one thing to be ignorant, it's another to be happy that way, and that is what is wrong with the world!!!
Exhaust Port I loved this discussion but I must retire for I wish not to flame or be flamed so I will stop. But this thread will inspire me to use new catch phrases.
WOW i have to edit here because I have to thank you for enlightening me on the subject on you last paragraph. I have put myself in the shoes of ancient man and see treking across an unknown world and compare that to how we see outer space.
I HAVE BEEN ENLIGHTENED!!!!!!!!!:D :D :crazed: I have gone to the next level!!!!!!!!

Pendo
10-04-2002, 06:32 PM
What do you think of the latest news in the world of UFOlogy? Apparently one of the greatest UFO pictures... and I agree :D.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1066335,00.html

PENDO!

Exhaust Port
10-04-2002, 07:04 PM
"If the photo is a hoax, it would be extremely elaborate."

Apparently throwing a metal frisbee into the air and having your buddy take a picture of it is considered "elaborate" now? The special effects in modern movies are elaborate, this picture can be duplicated by some 5 year old kids.

"Hey I think I see something out my window" <quickly grabs a pan from the kitchen and his trusty camera> "This is all in the name of $cience."

Slicker
11-28-2006, 08:49 PM
I definitely believe that there is life out there. It'd be typical of us as selfish humans to think that we're alone.

There is life out there and it's far more intelligent than we can ever hope to be...at least until Bob Barker dies and they drain his brain and find the secret to interstellar travel.

SWAFMAN
11-30-2006, 10:15 AM
Hawking: Man must leave planet Earth (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/30/uhawking130.xml)

Cool stuff.....

On a tangent, further down in the article it talks about using Hawking's and other motor neuron disease victims' DNA to locate the genetic marker(s) for the disease. However, it does not say how doctors or prospective parents would use the information they were given in those cases where DNA markers for the disease were found in a fetus.

It seems like even if the genetic markers for these defects can be located in the foreseeable future, we're still a very long way from being able to repair (remove the mutated portions, and splice unmutated, "healthy" sections into the effected area(s) of the DNA???) the defects.

Hawking is probably the best example of why mankind should be retrospect in how we embrace this area of bleeding edge medical technology advances. Look at what the human race would have lost if Hawking's parents decided to abort their child because a test showed that he'd develop a severely crippling disease with usually only a few years to live after the disease's onset, or if they were told even before trying to have a child, that the genetic markers were present in one or both of them, making it likely any child they had would have the disease?

I tell my kids that they should not only ask themselves if they CAN do something, but keep going beyond that to ask themselves SHOULD they do it? I think there a lot of times mankind stops the decision process at the "yes" answer to the CAN, and doesn't wait to properly evaluate the SHOULD.

Like I said, I know this is off-topic for this thread, and I never post to GenDisc anyway, so sorry to have intruded here. Best wishes to all....

[On a further side note, I think it's extremely cool that there is going to be a "DNA Bank" of Hawking's genetic code. Medical reality notwithstanding, I'm not sure we're mature enough to handle human cloning, but if/when we are, he would certainly have to be at the top of the list of DNA candidates! Imagine twenty Hawkings working together on a project.]