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View Full Version : When U C Vader do U C Anakin??



JediDan
07-23-2002, 03:44 PM
Before Episode 2 was released whenever I seen Vader in the classic trilogy I could never see Anakin, just a mechanical human. Now after seeing AOTC and getting to know the adult Anakin, when I see Vader I see a (tortured) Anakin below all that machinery. I have a new sense of sorrow for Anakin knowing what pain he must be going through under all that machinery. Episode 2 has really changed the way I look at the original trilogy in many ways. But I don't have any sorrow for Palpatine though, thats for sure. ;)

JediTricks
07-23-2002, 08:59 PM
Never, not even when the mask was coming off at the end of ROTJ, only when the mask was all the way off and Sebastian Shaw was talking was there an "Anakin" there. That's probably why I accept what Obi-Wan says about "a point of view" so easily, he's right, Anakin doesn't exist when Vader is in the house. Eps 1 and 2 haven't changed that for me at all.

Pendo
07-24-2002, 08:47 AM
I couldn't have said that better myself, JT! That's exactly what I think when I see Vader.

PENDO!

scruffziller
07-24-2002, 09:02 AM
No I can't see it, maybe at the end of ROTJ I do a little.

JediDan
07-24-2002, 05:39 PM
I'd have to disagree on that. Anakin is under all that, Luke himself sensed the conflict in Anakin in ROTJ. Anakin broke himself free when he seen his son being killed. Vader would call luke "my son". I understand what your getting at and can see it that way too. In fact thats the way I used to see it.

Man oh man I can't wait for Episode 3. It's gonna be very interesting.

Darth Sidious
07-24-2002, 08:39 PM
I see him as Vader until the Emperor is killed. Until then he is an evil, malicious, lethal Sith...Which is why he rules. :evil: When he kills the Emperor I consider him Anakin once again. I dont feel sorry for Palpatine either. Why would I feel sorry for the most awesome (As Sidious, anyway) powerful man alive?

darthvyn
07-24-2002, 09:16 PM
from the moment that the emperor asks "are you sure you're feelings are clear on the matter..." the conflict is there. the conflict is there on endor when luke surrenders on the landing platform. this is the way i've always seen it. ep 2 went a long way to support my feelings on the matter, but i feel that throughout ROJ he is questioning his actions on behalf of the emperor.

2-1B
07-26-2002, 12:58 AM
When he's chasing Luke down the trench I keep thinking of the Boonta Eve podrace. :rolleyes:

Hmmm, I haven't watched the OT since seeing AOTC, but when I see Vader choking people from now on, I still won't think of Anakin under there. Right now I remember Ani as a tormented soul, much different from the ruthless Vader. I'll have to wait to see E3 before I know how that will pan out for me. :)

However in the meantime, when Ben talks about Luke's father, I'll probably think of their shenanigans from AOTC . . .

stillakid
07-26-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Never, not even when the mask was coming off at the end of ROTJ, only when the mask was all the way off and Sebastian Shaw was talking was there an "Anakin" there. That's probably why I accept what Obi-Wan says about "a point of view" so easily, he's right, Anakin doesn't exist when Vader is in the house. Eps 1 and 2 haven't changed that for me at all.

What are "Eps 1 and 2"? Are those Star Wars movies? :rolleyes:

2-1B
07-26-2002, 02:21 AM
I never saw this poster before, but just found a pic on eBay. It's kinda cool, I may have to look for it in stores . . . :)

Anyway, I thought it might be germaine to the discussion (and it's for stillakid's amusement - just wait'll Hayden takes that mask from his left and slips it on! :D :D :D ).

stillakid
07-26-2002, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I never saw this poster before, but just found a pic on eBay. It's kinda cool, I may have to look for it in stores . . . :)

Anyway, I thought it might be germaine to the discussion (and it's for stillakid's amusement - just wait'll Hayden takes that mask from his left and slips it on! :D :D :D ).

;)

I hope it's a "Pretty Woman" type scene, with Hayden going through a bunch of "hat/mask" shoppes, trying them on with some peppy music behind it all.

"Not this one, not evil enough."
"How about this one, it's kinda cool?"
"Does this mask make me look fat?"

It'd be very cute. Bring on the silly "I'm Vader now" montage! :crazed:

El Chuxter
07-26-2002, 10:20 AM
Caesar, I'm pretty sure I saw that poster at Wal-Mart. There's a Padme one too, but it's not nearly as well-done. Looks kinda calendarish.

billfremore
07-26-2002, 10:59 AM
Yup you can find all of these fine posters at your local department store or super-friendly Wal-mart!

The Battle of Geonosis one is my favourite. :D

Eternal Padawan
07-26-2002, 03:55 PM
I've always thought of "Anakin" as a complicated character with reasons and a backstory for doing what he does in the OT. (Not neccessarily the story being told in the PT, but...a story :rolleyes: )

"Vader" is a heartless one dimensional monster. So I tend to see Anakin in the trilogy now. Like "Hey, thats Anakin torturing his daughter." or "That's Anakin shooting at his son in the trench."


ROLLO!

stillakid
07-27-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
I've always thought of "Anakin" as a complicated character with reasons and a backstory for doing what he does in the OT. (Not neccessarily the story being told in the PT, but...a story :rolleyes: )

"Vader" is a heartless one dimensional monster. So I tend to see Anakin in the trilogy now. Like "Hey, thats Anakin torturing his daughter." or "That's Anakin shooting at his son in the trench."


ROLLO!

That's interesting. I'm not to that point yet. The Anakin in the OT is a very different person than any of the Prequel Anakins. There hasn't been one thing yet in the Prequels that has shown me that the Prequel (AOTC) Anakin is even close to going down that dark "monster" path. Sure, the kid is belligerent and cocky, but so are most teenagers. I'm hoping for some defining event or moment in Ep III that really sells his Fall. It's kind of like the 9/11 highjackers. What makes a human being even go to that horrible place in there psyche? Hopefully, GL won't just cop out and rely on the MASK MONTAGE SEQUENCE to tell that part of the story for him. IE, more of the same bi-polar behaviour, then a fight, then a mask sequence. It's not enough. We have to see a compelling reason for Anakin to take that fateful turn. We haven't seen anything of the sort yet for Anakin, but here's to hopin'! :)

2-1B
07-27-2002, 12:09 AM
stillakid
That's interesting. I'm not to that point yet. The Anakin in the OT is a very different person than any of the Prequel Anakins. There hasn't been one thing yet in the Prequels that has shown me that the Prequel (AOTC) Anakin is even close to going down that dark "monster" path. Sure, the kid is belligerent and cocky, but so are most teenagers. I'm hoping for some defining event or moment in Ep III that really sells his Fall. It's kind of like the 9/11 highjackers. What makes a human being even go to that horrible place in there psyche? Hopefully, GL won't just cop out and rely on the MASK MONTAGE SEQUENCE to tell that part of the story for him. IE, more of the same bi-polar behaviour, then a fight, then a mask sequence. It's not enough. We have to see a compelling reason for Anakin to take that fateful turn. We haven't seen anything of the sort yet for Anakin, but here's to hopin'!



That and his mother's murder, leading to his vengeful slaughter of the perps, their enablers, and a few innocents. :rolleyes:

:D

stillakid
07-27-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Caesar




That and his mother's murder, leading to his vengeful slaughter of the perps, their enablers, and a few innocents. :rolleyes:

:D

Yeah, but that had nothing to do with the Jedi or Obi Wan or anything. It was a random act of violence that could've happened to anyone wandering around the desert alone.

I'm still puzzled as to why Lucas would choose to have Shmi die that way. After EpI, I figured it was a gimme that she would bite it, but it would have had far greater impact had her death been a result of some terrible Jedi thing or something. She just as easily could have fallen off a cliff, except that then Ani would have nobody to kill. But the comparison holds because in the great scheme of things, the Sandpeople have as much to do with the big picture as a cliff does.

So Lucas drops that in to show that Anakin is p#ssed off. Great, except that we knew that already. He said time and time again that he was mad at Obi Wan for "holding him back" or some lamea@@ reason.

Aside from Anakin himself being completely unreasonable, nobody else (besides the Sandpeople) have done even the tiniest thing wrong that would be a justifiable reason for him to go off the deep end and begin a slaughter. Thus far, he's just shown himself to be a bi-polar spoiled brat...a far cry from the deeply (and somehow justifiably) angry (though we never know why) Darth Vader that we get to know and love in the OT.

LTBasker
07-27-2002, 12:49 AM
Caesar, you might want to check out Wal-Mart, I saw those posters there plus a cool poster with pics of ROTJ Luke & Vader duel, Yoda vs. Dooku duel, and Obi vs. Maul (or Qui vs. Maul) duel.

To keep the thread on topic (more or less):

[James Earl Jones voice]I slaughtered them... kkkrrrppgghhhh....not just the men...krrppggghhhh... the women and children...krrrppgghhh...pet me like a lost puppy...krrrpppurrrr.....[/JEJ voice]

Beast
07-27-2002, 12:57 AM
The Jedi, and more importantly Obi-Wan himself were responsible for Shmi's death, from a certain point of view. Obi-Wan shrugged off Anakin's dreams about his mother, as just that...dreams. If he would have trusted Anakin's feelings, things would have transpired very differently.

So while Anakin did murder a whole campful of Tusken Raiders, including women and children, I doubt that's the end. The fact that Obi-Wan kept him from checking on his mother the whole time will continue to eat away at him. So like I said, the Jedi are responsible for her death, from a certain point of view. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
07-27-2002, 12:58 AM
I think it works fine.
How many times does he really say he's "mad" at Obi-Wan? He tells Padme about their differences, but as an immature kid he's trying to impress a girl . . . only he's actually right in some ways about being ahead of Obers. I think you're exaggerating about him saying it "time and time again."
And when he actually blames Obi-Wan, saying "he's holding me back", it's after his mother's murder. And he was right in a way about that. He was having dreams, and who's the one telling him to ignore it? Obi-Wan. So from that angle, Obi-Wan had a role in preventing Anakin from saving his mother.
Of course, we know Obi-Wan is not to blame, he meant no malice. I'm not sure what kind of "terrible Jedi thing" you had in mind, but scapegoating Kenobi and his order interests me. (The Jedi are supposed to be so noble, so anything leading to Vader's birth would likely come from a misunderstanding of many different possibilites. I'd like to hear some of your alternate ideas. :) )

That's what we have here, and yes the Jedi are involved, not just the Tuskens. The Jedi would prevent Ani from following his heart, and when he does finally decide to do it, he realizes he could have been successful . . . if only he'd done it his way - sooner.


edit - oops, a few new posts since I hit reply -- stillakid, this post was written in direct response to your last post. :)

Oh, about the poster issue, it's weird because I've seen ALL of the other ones at WM, except for the Ani poster . . . weird :crazed:

jobi
07-27-2002, 01:01 AM
I think it was to show the darker side of Anakin. Being mad at his master for "holding him back" is a far cry from how evil Darth Vader is.

That was a reply to Stillakid's post I forgot to quote him and I typed really slow.:D

LTBasker
07-27-2002, 01:04 AM
I think it was because they didn't want Anakin to succomb to his emotions. I'm sure many of the Jedi have had loved ones lost that they could've saved because they were required to not let emotion get in the way of anything.

Overall though, it wasn't anyones fault I think. She could've been killed anyways, who knew she would survive that long? They could've killed her right there, and it was her own fault for going out in early morning without protection.

Beast
07-27-2002, 01:09 AM
LTBasker, it wasn't her fault at all. Tusken's normally never go that far into the settled lands. It's stated as such in the movie, and in the book. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-27-2002, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The Jedi, and more importantly Obi-Wan himself were responsible for Shmi's death, from a certain point of view. Obi-Wan shrugged off Anakin's dreams about his mother, as just that...dreams. If he would have trusted Anakin's feelings, things would have transpired very differently.

So while Anakin did murder a whole campful of Tusken Raiders, including women and children, I doubt that's the end. The fact that Obi-Wan kept him from checking on his mother the whole time will continue to eat away at him. So like I said, the Jedi are responsible for her death, from a certain point of view. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


[limb]..............................................you (don't fall off):rolleyes:

Obi never ever ever ever ever kept Anakin from going to check on his mother. Show me a place in the film when Obi tells Anakin, "No Anakin, you have to stay here." Anakin never requested to go back and nobody ever forbid him to do it. It wasn't assumed, insinuated, or expected at any time by anybody.

Beyond all that, what was with the Tusken's anyway? Why...no, what motivation would they have for keeping a human woman tied up for a month? What was that all about? Why take her at all? To eat her? Rape her? :confused:

But to add more weird confusion to the mix, Anakin, who never bothered to ask anyone if he could go see his mother, does find her and conveniently just about 2 minutes before she was going to die. Talk about dumb f'ing luck! Man, just a few minutes on the other side and he would've just found a corpse.

So looking at it all that way, if there's anybody in the Universe he should be p'od at it would be Palpatine! He's the one who saddled Obi and Ani with the Senator in the first place and kept them bogged down with official duties. But does he get angry at the old man? Nooooooo. As we all know later, he ends up on his side.

Honestly, it can't just be me not seeing this for what it is...or isn't. Can it? :confused:

LTBasker
07-27-2002, 01:16 AM
I think it was the will of the force that he found her. The midichlorians found her, so most likely the force would have kept her alive until he could find her. Also why would the Tuskens keep her alive? Torture...

As for the Tuskens not going into the settled lands, she should have known there was still a risk. They obviously check out any chance they see, so they were probably scoping out the territory and seeing that she was alone, defenseless and it was early, they got her.

Beast
07-27-2002, 01:20 AM
He didn't come right out and say it, but he tried his damndest to to convince Anakin that it was just a dream. "Dreams pass in time." Did you totally miss that section of the movie? Everytime that Anakin mentions these dreams of his mother, Obi-Wan has told him the same thing. It's plain as day in the movie.

The Tusken's do that to test their enemies. It's explained more in the book. They were torturing her daily, to see how long she would last. They probably don't feel that they have to share the desert with anyone, so they wanted to see how strong their enemies are.

She was holding on to life, out of hope to see her son again. Once she had, she had no reason left to live and she finally could die. Remeber, she told him.. "Now, I am complete", or somthing along those lines right before she died.

Why would he be ticked off at Palpatine. Palpatine is being a close friend to Anakin. Advising him and stroking his ego. He's more of a father figure to Ani then Obi-Wan is. While in the end everything is really Palpy's fault, Anakin is blaming the easy target, Obi-Wan Kenobi. :)

Since you seem to be the only one that ever really argues these sort of things, I am going to have to see that it's mostly just you seeing things this way. It's your point of view, and you refuse to be open-minded and look at things a different way. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
07-27-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
I think it was the will of the force that he found her. The midichlorians found her, so most likely the force would have kept her alive until he could find her.

I don't buy into that "the Force did it" stuff, but, hey, what the heck do I know. :)



Originally posted by LTBasker
Also why would the Tuskens keep her alive? Torture...

Just because? No video games at the camp? That's what Tuskens do, shoot Podracers, attack wandering boys in Landspeeders, run from Krayt Dragons, and torture human women? Again, they're aliens, so I suppose anything is possible.

But for crying out loud, it's the writer's responsibility to make stuff plausible, even if it is a new way of thinking. He can't just drop stuff in there that doesn't make any sense in relation to the lives of the audience.

jobi
07-27-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



[limb]..............................................you (don't fall off):rolleyes:

Obi never ever ever ever ever kept Anakin from going to check on his mother. Show me a place in the film when Obi tells Anakin, "No Anakin, you have to stay here." Anakin never requested to go back and nobody ever forbid him to do it. It wasn't assumed, insinuated, or expected at any time by anybody.

Beyond all that, what was with the Tusken's anyway? Why...no, what motivation would they have for keeping a human woman tied up for a month? What was that all about? Why take her at all? To eat her? Rape her? :confused:

But to add more weird confusion to the mix, Anakin, who never bothered to ask anyone if he could go see his mother, does find her and conveniently just about 2 minutes before she was going to die. Talk about dumb f'ing luck! Man, just a few minutes on the other side and he would've just found a corpse.

So looking at it all that way, if there's anybody in the Universe he should be p'od at it would be Palpatine! He's the one who saddled Obi and Ani with the Senator in the first place and kept them bogged down with official duties. But does he get angry at the old man? Nooooooo. As we all know later, he ends up on his side.

Honestly, it can't just be me not seeing this for what it is...or isn't. Can it? :confused:


It's Hollywood. It fit in because it is a fantasy movie. It would be pretty lame for him to never find her or to find her bloated rotting corpse out in the desert. So Mr. Lucas found a conveniant way to reunite Anakin with his mother and show his downward spiral.

LTBasker
07-27-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Just because? No video games at the camp? That's what Tuskens do, shoot Podracers, attack wandering boys in Landspeeders, run from Krayt Dragons, and torture human women? Again, they're aliens, so I suppose anything is possible.

Ever watched a cat play with a mouse? Not killing it, but just playing with it..sticking it's claws into it, or biting it... They're supposedly savage, so they perhaps find enjoyment in torching outsiders. Especially the women, which they may even rape.

As for the will of the force, it's a fiction Sci-fi universe, and other things have been done by the will of the force. Why not have them be done for the chosen one also?

stillakid
07-27-2002, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Since you seem to be the only one that ever really argues these sort of things, I am going to have to see that it's mostly just you seeing things this way. It's your point of view, and you refuse to be open-minded and look at things a different way. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

On the contrary, I'm entirely open-minded. I'm willing to look at what GL does and then judge it as opposed to deciding that I'm going to like it then rationalize everything else to make it fit within my preconceived notions of perfection. If he meant to suggest that the Tuskens torture humans for testing purposes, then it was his responsibility to say that somehow in the film itself. And he didn't. That's his fault for not doing it, not mine for bringing it up.

2-1B
07-27-2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Obi never ever ever ever ever kept Anakin from going to check on his mother. Show me a place in the film when Obi tells Anakin, "No Anakin, you have to stay here." Anakin never requested to go back and nobody ever forbid him to do it. It wasn't assumed, insinuated, or expected at any time by anybody.

"Dreams pass, in time."
Not "Hmm, Anakin, you have such potential, maybe we should look into this because there might be a dying woman we can help out. We are after all, the keepers of peace and justice."

To me, that's insinuation. Besides, Anakin himself isn't yet 100% on the matter, "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her." If he doesn't know why, why the heck should he be requesting to visit her?
Obi-Wan's dismissal of Ani's feelings was understandable, but it's not unrealistic to blame him after the fact.



But to add more weird confusion to the mix, Anakin, who never bothered to ask anyone if he could go see his mother, does find her and conveniently just about 2 minutes before she was going to die. Talk about dumb f'ing luck! Man, just a few minutes on the other side and he would've just found a corpse.

That confuses you?
He didn't know why he kept dreaming about her at the beginning of the film. In the middle of the film when he can't fight back the feelings anymore he goes and finds her near death.
It makes sense that his feelings grew stronger as she neared death. That's how the whole thing about seeing the future works.


Honestly, it can't just be me not seeing this for what it is...or isn't. Can it? :confused:

What a rude remark. I wouldn't dare take something so "obvious" to me (for instance, the timing of Shmi's death) and dismiss it as you not seeing it for what it is or isn't. :rolleyes:

Or your opinion that Anakin has "just shown himself to be a bi-polar spoiled brat." IMO, he shows himself to be a brat at times, a hero at other times, a wounded son at other times, etc. etc. etc.
Honestly, it can't just be me seeing Anakin for who he is...or isn't. Can it?

Eternal Padawan
07-27-2002, 02:11 AM
Shmi wanted to see her son before she passed away. When he showed up, she was content at seeing the man he'd grown up to be. Then she passed away.

If you're not going to watch the film, then try not to come in here foist half baked theories on us about why Lucas made his film wrong.

ROLLO!

PS Caesar, who liked Rollerball? ;)

Beast
07-27-2002, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Shmi wanted to see her son before she passed away. When he showed up, she was content at seeing the man he'd grown up to be. Then she passed away.

If you're not going to watch the film, then try not to come in here foist half baked theories on us about why Lucas made his film wrong.

ROLLO!

PS Caesar, who liked Rollerball? ;)
Exactly, I think most of us agree that it was just Shmi's will and her hopes to see Anakin one last time before she died, that kept her alive until that happened. It's obvious from the film, it's not like we need a 10 minute explanation scene why she was able to last so long. :)

I know you're asking Caesar Rollo, but that depends. Do you mean the horrible original, or the craptaculer re-make? Either way the film was crap. If they wanna re-make movies, you think they could do one that was atleast good. :crazed: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

scruffziller
07-27-2002, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I never saw this poster before, but just found a pic on eBay. It's kinda cool, I may have to look for it in stores . . . :)

Anyway, I thought it might be germaine to the discussion (and it's for stillakid's amusement - just wait'll Hayden takes that mask from his left and slips it on! :D :D :D ).
I like how the got young Anikin with the menacing look on his face.

stillakid
07-27-2002, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Exactly, I think most of us agree that it was just Shmi's will and her hopes to see Anakin one last time before she died, that kept her alive until that happened. It's obvious from the film, it's not like we need a 10 minute explanation scene why she was able to last so long. :)

What makes her think that she'll ever see him again? She hasn't seen him for ten years, gets kidnapped, maybe she knows that the rescue party gets wiped out. She doesn't know that Ani has the skills to fight his way through the ruthless Tuskens. In short, she has absolutely no reason to suspect that she'll ever see any human again, much less Anakin. It just doesn't work no matter how much pepper you throw on it.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

I know you're asking Caesar Rollo, but that depends. Do you mean the horrible original, or the craptaculer re-make? Either way the film was crap. If they wanna re-make movies, you think they could do one that was atleast good. :crazed: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

That's for me! ;) I LIKED the new Rollerball, DESPITE the HUGE problems within the story. That's because I took it for what it was...nothing more than an adrenaline rush. I accepted the holes in the story because I wasn't expecting much else. But because the OT was constructed so well, I have a certain expectation of what a Star Wars film should be.

If your explanations of my questions are correct, GL's plot construction relies far too heavily on weak connections and extraneous external material (ie, the novel) to bridge the gaps. That's it in a nutshell. I suppose if you dig hard enough, just about any pitfall can be rationalized out, but I've had a greater respect for GL's storytelling ability than that based on what he showed us with the OT.

stillakid
07-27-2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


"Dreams pass, in time."
Not "Hmm, Anakin, you have such potential, maybe we should look into this because there might be a dying woman we can help out. We are after all, the keepers of peace and justice."

To me, that's insinuation. Besides, Anakin himself isn't yet 100% on the matter, "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her." If he doesn't know why, why the heck should he be requesting to visit her?
Obi-Wan's dismissal of Ani's feelings was understandable, but it's not unrealistic to blame him after the fact.

Why wouldn't he want to go visit her? First off, he hasn't seen her in ten years. Is there a Jedi Code that says trainees can't take some personal time? Maybe there is, I don't know. But it seems like a better idea for an organization like that to want to take care of the mental health of it's members and not imprison them within the confines of the "training."

But still, why not blame Palpatine for this as opposed to Obi Wan? It was Palpatine who gave them the assignment. After that it was Yoda, I suppose, who sent him away with Padme. So maybe he could blame Yoda too. But Obi didn't do anything to Ani yet. He's just training him the best way he knows how. "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

Of course, looking at that statement one could run the scenario that if Yoda was teaching Anakin, Yoda would have recognized the dreams for what they were (seeing an actual event) and then sent Anakin back home right away. So maybe from that angle you're correct, and Obi is just a bad teacher. But still, that doesn't give Anakin a justifiable reason to get so angry at him.



Originally posted by Caesar

That confuses you?
He didn't know why he kept dreaming about her at the beginning of the film. In the middle of the film when he can't fight back the feelings anymore he goes and finds her near death.
It makes sense that his feelings grew stronger as she neared death. That's how the whole thing about seeing the future works.



I guess that goes back to what it means being a student. If he didn't know that the dreams were premonitions, then it would be up to his teacher to figure it all out for him, but since Obi is a poor teacher, that didn't happen.

But how do we know that that's how seeing the future works? It makes more sense that her greatest point of anguish (to send psychic signals out into the Universe) would have been when she was originally kidnapped. Everything after that would have been pain and despair. So Anakin's "dreams" would have been the worst in the beginning and kind of leveled off over time. But the suggestion is that they get worse and worse.

Again, it's the domino effect. These events don't exist in a vaccuum. One thing effects everything else. Maybe your dream explanation is correct, but then other questions pop up. What I really want to do is just sit with GL and run through some of this with him.


Originally posted by Caesar


What a rude remark. I wouldn't dare take something so "obvious" to me (for instance, the timing of Shmi's death) and dismiss it as you not seeing it for what it is or isn't. :rolleyes:

Or your opinion that Anakin has "just shown himself to be a bi-polar spoiled brat." IMO, he shows himself to be a brat at times, a hero at other times, a wounded son at other times, etc. etc. etc.
Honestly, it can't just be me seeing Anakin for who he is...or isn't. Can it?

I apologize profusely for coming off as rude. That wasn't the intention at all. While I'm not the only one who has brought these questions up (ie, the timing of Shmi's death), I'm surprised that more people haven't questioned it. Jar Jar relies on the novel to fill in the blanks when the film doesn't, and I don't think that's a fair strategy for a filmmaker to use. It's as if a filmmaker shoots the entire story, then leaves some stuff out for time considerations, then says, well just wait for the DVD release (the Director's Cut) and it'll all become clearer. If you've got 2 hours to tell the story, you tell it in 2 hours instead of leaving a footnote that says to go read up afterwards to fill in the blanks.

But what it boils down to I suppose is that if Obi is truly to blame for Shmi dying, then that wasn't clear in the movie. Anakin says it, but there isn't compelling evidence for the audience to believe it. There is the writing adage of show us, don't tell us. Lucas ignored it over and over again in TPM and seems to keep in up in AOTC.

stillakid
07-27-2002, 09:58 AM
RE: the bipolar part. Take a look at the Padme-packing scene.


PADMÉ
I do not like this idea of hiding.

ANAKIN
Don't worry. Now that the Council
has ordered an investigation, it
won't take Master Obi-Wan long to
find that bounty hunter.

That sound's like respect for Obi Wan. Anakin is being extremely reasonable and mature at the top of the scene.

PADMÉ
(frustrated)
I haven't worked for a year to
defeat the "Military Creation Act"
not to be here when its fate is
decided.

ANAKIN
Sometimes we have to let go of our
pride and do what is requested of
us.

PADMÉ
Pride?!? Annie, you're young, and
you don't have a very firm grip on
politics. I suggest you reserve
your opinions for some other time.

ANAKIN
Sorry, M'lady. I was only trying
to...

PADMÉ
Annie! No!

ANAKIN
Please don't call me that.

PADMÉ
What?

ANAKIN
Annie...

PADMÉ
I've always called you that... it
is your name, isn't it?

ANAKIN
It's Anakin. When you say Annie
it's like I'm still a little
boy... and I'm not.

Now, it's been a few weeks since I've seen the movie, but I don't recall this last bit being on screen. Why not? It helps develop their relationship for this story in ways that I don't remember the movie doing.

PADMÉ
I'm sorry, Anakin. It's impossible
to deny you've...
(looks him over)
...that you've grown up.

PADME smiles at ANAKIN. He becomes a little shy.

ANAKIN
Master Obi-Wan manages not to see it...

PADMÉ
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
Don't get me wrong... Obi-Wan is
a great mentor. As wise as Master
Yoda and as powerful as Master
Windu. I am truly thankful to be
his apprentice. Only... although
I'm a Padawan learner, in some
ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead
of him. I'm ready for the trials.
I know I am! He knows it too. He
believes I'm too unpredictable...
Other Jedi my age have gone
through the trials and made it...
I know I started my training
late... but he won't let me move on.

Again, I don't recall the "Padawan learner" line being in there. As the movie presents it, Anakin just says that he's ready, but refuses to admit, as in this original dialogue, that he is still in training afterall. I'll freely admit that after reading these words, the story begins to become more cohesive.

PADMÉ
That must be frustrating.

ANAKIN
It's worse... he's overly
critical. He never listens! He
just doesn't understand! It's not
fair!

As in the film, he suddenly goes from sounding reasonable to becoming a whining baby...unjustifiably. And Padme knows it which led into her next film line. However, as the original script shows just below, she got a kick out of it too, just as I did...

PADME cannot supress a laugh. She shakes her head.

PADMÉ
I'm sorry... You sounded exactly
like that little boy I once knew,
when he didn't get his way.

ANAKIN
I'm not whining! I'm not.

PADME just smiles at him. DORME laughs in the background.

PADMÉ
I didn't say it to hurt you.

ANAKIN
I know...

There is a brief silence. PADME comes over to ANAKIN.

PADME
Anakin...

They look into each other's eyes for the first time.

PADMÉ
(continuing)
Don't try to grow up too fast.

ANAKIN
I am grown up. You said it
yourself.

ANAKIN looks deep into PADME'S eyes.

PADMÉ
Please don't look at me like that.

ANAKIN
Why not?

PADMÉ
Because I can see what you're thinking.

ANAKIN
(laughing)
Ahh... so, you have Jedi powers
too?

DORME is watching with concern.

PADMÉ
It makes me feel uncomfortable.

ANAKIN
Sorry, M'lady.


Then he got that psycho serial killer look in his eyes, a far cry from that rational and grounded character that began the scene just a couple minutes beforehand. Based on his erratic mood swings in this scene alone, he's a fantastic candidate for Prozac. :)

These words fill in some blanks that were evident on screen as I'm sure happened in other scenes. I haven't read the script yet so my evaluation is based only on the movie.

2-1B
07-27-2002, 11:32 AM
stillakid
Then he got that psycho serial killer look in his eyes, a far cry from that rational and grounded character that began the scene just a couple minutes beforehand. Based on his erratic mood swings in this scene alone, he's a fantastic candidate for Prozac.


That's interesting, I took it as more of a "man, I so want to get it on with you" look. :D
Seriously, I thought that was more of a sly grin, he was trying to make a move and even though she turned him down - he kept lookin' because his confidence was unshaken. That's cockiness ! :happy: Meh, he nails her in the end . . . king's to him. :happy:

I respect your opinion of him as bi-polar, I just see him as a cocky youngster. I'm not that far removed from 19 (it's been 5 years) but I can relate to what we see on screen. I thought I knew everything at 19, and certainly did act that way but I sure could complain too. :D

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that it's not supposed to be justifiable, the way he acts sometimes. If he did always act justifiably, he wouldn't turn into Vader. ;)
I expect reason from Obers, not Ani. :)

You're gonna hate me for quoting this line, but like Ani says, "You are asking me to be rational. That is something I know I cannot do." ;)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuskens and kidnapping - yeah, I know what the book says and I just don't care. Why does anybody take prisoners? I never really wondered why "cowboy and indian" movies had those setups, or why Chuck Norris was held prisoner by the VC.
Of course, I do understand why, but with a race like the Tuskens, it's not of interest to me. I don't need explanation for their actions, what's important is that they've kidnapped Ani's mum.
I understand that it bothers some people, but it's just not of interest to me . . . besides, if the Tuskens are really such "vicious, mindless monsters" as Cliegg opines, could the Tuskens even offer reason as to why they behave in certain ways? :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------

stillakid
But what it boils down to I suppose is that if Obi is truly to blame for Shmi dying, then that wasn't clear in the movie. Anakin says it, but there isn't compelling evidence for the audience to believe it. There is the writing adage of show us, don't tell us. Lucas ignored it over and over again in TPM and seems to keep in up in AOTC.

But Obi-Wan is NOT TO BLAME, that's what I'm trying to say. IMO, the movie showed clearly why Ani blames him, and my position is based solely on what I saw in the film. I DON'T WANT to believe Obi-Wan is to blame, because I don't think he IS to blame. How can the movie show that it's his fault when it's not? Instead, the movie shows why Anakin does indeed think it's Obi's fault.
I hope I'm not just rationalizing away here. :rolleyes:
:D

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

stillakid and Eternal, I'm still trying to get around to renting Rollerball - I'll be sure to dig up the old thread about it to offer my thoughts . . . and if JJB thinks even the original was crap, I may need to do a comparison of my own. :D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks guys, it's been awhile since I've talked AOTC. Now I'm excited to see it again! :)
If only there weren't so many other flix I want to see this summer, I'd have seen it more than my current total of 18 times . . . :cry:

stillakid
07-27-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that it's not supposed to be justifiable, the way he acts sometimes. If he did always act justifiably, he wouldn't turn into Vader. ;)
I expect reason from Obers, not Ani. :)

You're gonna hate me for quoting this line, but like Ani says, "You are asking me to be rational. That is something I know I cannot do." ;)
But Obi-Wan is NOT TO BLAME, that's what I'm trying to say. IMO, the movie showed clearly why Ani blames him, and my position is based solely on what I saw in the film. I DON'T WANT to believe Obi-Wan is to blame, because I don't think he IS to blame. How can the movie show that it's his fault when it's not? Instead, the movie shows why Anakin does indeed think it's Obi's fault.
I hope I'm not just rationalizing away here. :rolleyes:
:D



Ok, I'm going to bring this full circle and back to the title of the thread. Maybe this will help make my position clearer. Maybe.
:rolleyes:

What I'm hoping for and kinda always assumed (because of the character we see in the OT) is that Vader was evil but also mature! What do I mean by that? Look at it from the other side for a sec.

Anakin says that he cannot be rational. And by that token his actions are not justifiable, but to his own (admittedly) twisted mind, they are. In any case, what we're left with is a man who remains essentially juvenile in his thought and behavior processes throughout his entire life. It takes him watching his own son dying to essentially wake him up to the fact that he's a grown-up and has more responsibilities than his own selfish desires. My own moniker, "stillakid," is similar to that notion, in that I desperately try to hang onto some idea of childhood, but unlike Vader, I have realized (a whole lot sooner than him) that my own selfish needs have to be put aside for the sake of my children. Taking your train of thought, Anakin/Vader doesn't have that epiphany until he's an old man which means that he has remained an immature selfish little brat (despite his age and appearance) throughout his entire life.

What I was expecting to see instead was this: based on the OT Vader, I saw a very mature man. He was very much in control and on a mission...a mission of revenge for something. We don't know what or why. Something made him very angry at the Jedi and it was that event that made him vulnerable to the influence of someone else who had use for that kind of anger. Palpatine would recognize Anakin's usefullness for his own selfish cause and capitalize on it.

So, the primary difference is that in the above version, Anakin is a whiny selfish brat for the extent of his life (AOTC on, because he doesn't even hint at being that kind of person in TPM). In my version, Anakin's motivation is entirely rational and quite possibly understandable by the audience. Enough so, so that as we see him lapse to the dark side, we can be empathetic to his plight so that when Luke does redeem him, we can be happy. In the above "non-rational" version of Anakin, the redemption is less than satisfying because in the end we still know that he was a complete jerk-off who went off the deep-end for no good reason. Luke laments, "There is still good in him." Based on the "non-rational" AOTC version of Anakin, that isn't even an issue. Lucas is building a character whose downfall has nothing at all to do with losing his "goodness." Based on AOTC, Anakin is just an immature irrational selfish idiot who stays that way.

The event that pushes him over the edge? I have no idea. That'd be jumping into nearly meaningless speculation at this point. But someone a while back did mention the idea (maybe Tycho) that maybe Obi and Padme get it on at some point. That would certainly be enough to p#ss anyone off, except that it would be limited to a personal vendetta. Vader/Anakin wouldn't have let Obi live to the ripe old age that he does. No, the event has to be something where Anakin feels profound distress at the Republic and/or the Jedi as a whole.

2-1B
07-27-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Ok, I'm going to bring this full circle and back to the title of the thread. Maybe this will help make my position clearer. Maybe.
:rolleyes:

What I'm hoping for and kinda always assumed (because of the character we see in the OT) is that Vader was evil but also mature! What do I mean by that? Look at it from the other side for a sec.

I get what you're saying, I just disagree. :D


Anakin says that he cannot be rational. And by that token his actions are not justifiable, but to his own (admittedly) twisted mind, they are. In any case, what we're left with is a man who remains essentially juvenile in his thought and behavior processes throughout his entire life. It takes him watching his own son dying to essentially wake him up to the fact that he's a grown-up and has more responsibilities than his own selfish desires. My own moniker, "stillakid," is similar to that notion, in that I desperately try to hang onto some idea of childhood, but unlike Vader, I have realized (a whole lot sooner than him) that my own selfish needs have to be put aside for the sake of my children.

That's a possibility, we'll have to wait to see Episode III to see how much further he matures. But there's still a few decades in between trilogies, plenty of time to "grow up." Yeah, I know Obi-Wan said he's more machine now than man, but he was wrong about his redemption so maybe he's wrong about exactly how much a machine Anakin really is.


Taking your train of thought, Anakin/Vader doesn't have that epiphany until he's an old man which means that he has remained an immature selfish little brat (despite his age and appearance) throughout his entire life.

A false presumption. ;) You're taking my train of thought and adding your one-dimensional view of the character and it doesn't work because I don't Anakin as one-dimensional. I respect that you see it that way, but I have to wonder if you
a) ignored the many other emotions/qualities shown by the character
b) forgot them because you're too bothered by other aspects of the movies

I don't see him as always being a selfish little brat, so we'll just have to disagree there. :)



What I was expecting to see instead was this: based on the OT Vader, I saw a very mature man. He was very much in control and on a mission...a mission of revenge for something. We don't know what or why. Something made him very angry at the Jedi and it was that event that made him vulnerable to the influence of someone else who had use for that kind of anger. Palpatine would recognize Anakin's usefullness for his own selfish cause and capitalize on it.

Good points, but it doesn't have to be one big event. Several different factors can lead to the same result.


So, the primary difference is that in the above version, Anakin is a whiny selfish brat for the extent of his life (AOTC on, because he doesn't even hint at being that kind of person in TPM). In my version, Anakin's motivation is entirely rational and quite possibly understandable by the audience. Enough so, so that as we see him lapse to the dark side, we can be empathetic to his plight so that when Luke does redeem him, we can be happy. In the above "non-rational" version of Anakin, the redemption is less than satisfying because in the end we still know that he was a complete jerk-off who went off the deep-end for no good reason. Luke laments, "There is still good in him." Based on the "non-rational" AOTC version of Anakin, that isn't even an issue. Lucas is building a character whose downfall has nothing at all to do with losing his "goodness." Based on AOTC, Anakin is just an immature irrational selfish idiot who stays that way.

okay, "based on AOTC." Again, if you see him as "just this or that", you're missing out on alot and there's no hope that Episode III will be redemptive in that sense . . . so you don't see any good in the character from TPM or AOTC? So much for open-mindedness. I'm laughing that the cold Vader from the OT can hint at such wonders, but when being hit over the head with it in the prequels you don't see any of this goodness? :D

A complete jerk-off? Yeah, he's such an a-hole when he holds his dying mother. And what kind of jerk would cry and show emotion? How rude of him to run off and follow his love, I'm sure audience members can't empathize with THAT :rolleyes:

Personally, his motivation doesn't need to be rational to me, if I can feel bad for the character based on what has happened to him (leaving his mother, losing his mother, losing Padme, etc. ) then yeah, I can be happy for him as an ROTJ ghost. :happy:


The event that pushes him over the edge? I have no idea. That'd be jumping into nearly meaningless speculation at this point. But someone a while back did mention the idea (maybe Tycho) that maybe Obi and Padme get it on at some point. That would certainly be enough to p#ss anyone off, except that it would be limited to a personal vendetta. Vader/Anakin wouldn't have let Obi live to the ripe old age that he does. No, the event has to be something where Anakin feels profound distress at the Republic and/or the Jedi as a whole.

Good ideas, I can't wait to see how it all plays out! :happy:

Eternal Padawan
07-27-2002, 04:56 PM
Or, to summarize Caesar, he's ANAKIN, not SPOCK. You know. Feelings, emotions, etc. Just like the rest of the human race. Not everybody goes through life rationalizing and thinking three steps ahead. Hmm..my girlfriend left me and it hurts , but I shant cry because it makes no sense to cry because I'll only get dehydrated and I'll probably end up meeting soimeone else in the next five years. it's completely irrational to show feelings. My god, if I was that devoid of feeling and compassion, I'd probably just sit in forums all day and bash films I loathed over and over and over and over and over and over (ad nauseum)...


ROLLO!