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Beast
08-12-2002, 03:19 PM
Saw a link to this news story posted on one of my DVD sites, and I am furious as hell. If this law actually passes, it's going to destroy the home video market. It's pretty much just DIVX turned into a ludicrous law. Here's a copy of the story, as well as a link to it and to HomeTheaterForum.com's reaction. :mad: :(

Dealers Worry About Efforts By Copyright Holders
Posted: 8:59 a.m. EDT August 12, 2002

Piracy is probably the No. 1 threat to the video industry, but it's not the only one.

Sean Bersell, with the video and DVD trade group, the Video Software Dealers Association, says there are concerns about efforts by copyright holders. He says they're trying to restrict and limit the use of home video products by placing so-called "locks" on digital products. In other words, a consumer would not be able to watch a video or DVD multiple times.

There's a measure in the U.S. Senate just now that would do just that.

Bersell says the bill would allow copyright holders to place a code on a DVD that would allow it to be viewed a certain number of times or be played only on the first DVD player that it is viewed on.

After that, it would lock up and be unplayable.

Bersell believes this will become a big issue in the years ahead.

http://www.channel4000.com/sh/technology/stories/technology-business-160718120020812-080814.html

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88484

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
08-12-2002, 03:28 PM
I'm not concerned, that will never happen. :rolleyes:

Mandalorian Candidat
08-12-2002, 03:28 PM
WHAT?! That's so asinine. How could they make a DVD do that on the current players? They would have to revamp the whole system and require newer players with the locking technology to play these newer discs.

QLD
08-12-2002, 03:29 PM
That is a pretty retarded idea, and I doubt it will get any further than the idea stage.

The solution for piracy is to make things widely available at low prices. Often DVD prices are much higher than needed to turn a profit. Also, if they want to stop piracy, they should DO something about it. Not just ***** and moan about how it is cutting into their profits. Make the FBI actually do investigations, and actually enforce the penalties. As long as people stay small time with their piracy, they know they have nothing to worry about, because they are just a minnow in a small sea of big fish. The FBI only focuses on the big fish. Problem with that is, because piracy is so easy now, there are only a few fish, and the minnows are the ones causing the majority of the "damage".

SO, in my opinion, they should stop price gouging if they want piracy to decrease.

LTBasker
08-12-2002, 03:29 PM
Um...well that's dumb, then VHS will make a big come back that's for sure.

$20+ to only view the movie once? I don't think so. If they want to stop copyright piracy, maybe they should crack down on SECURITY and not the CONSUMERS.

hango fett
08-12-2002, 03:34 PM
about as dumb as it gets. better not happen for AOTC!!!! or all of us here will be very PO'd.
:mad: :frus: :rolleyes:
YF

sith_killer_99
08-12-2002, 03:38 PM
If this is the case why would people buy DVD's at all?

We would just have to rent from the local video store.

And speaking of the local video store...how would THAT work?

JON9000
08-12-2002, 03:41 PM
They would definitely need new hardware. Hollywood has never gotten over its arcane desire to charge the consumer for every viewing of its films. I suppose the short memories cannot recall the DIVX debacle. They kicked and screamed like babies when VCRs came out, and now this. Well, the consumer drives everything, and if no one buys it, they won't sell it. I for one will be buying bootlegs unencoded.

Pendo
08-12-2002, 03:47 PM
This has got to be an April Fools, right? What, not April :sur:?? There is no WAY this could be done, is there? PLEASE DON'T LET IT BE SO!!! What kind of idiot would do that to DVDs? If it was done I'm sure there would be protests and petitions, etc. the public would win!

PENDO!

Jacen Solo
08-12-2002, 03:58 PM
Well I know that if a law like that ever did get passed I would no longer buy dvds, a large amount of people would stop buying tem as well and people would probably blame hollywood and stop seeing movies all together, the result of course would be hollywood screwing itself.

Vortex
08-12-2002, 03:59 PM
What a joke. Just another exaple of fat cats trying to leech every last dollar outta us.

What's next Nike only letting you wear its shoes or shirts for 3 weeks and then we have to pay "rent" to keep using it, or keep paying them royalties to advertise their product? IMO, they should be paying us for advertising for them. Most of the time we are walking billboards.

Man, what would happen in Hasbro one day told all of us to give back all their star wars toys or impose a tax or something on what we already own...pay royalites to GL. I smell another boston tea party...

Some computer wiz can correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they already have zone safeguards in place? My old man worked for Micron as a network specialist and he was telling me about DVD's being coded in zones, and some DVD from europe/asia/pacific rim wouldn't work in america and vice versa, since the zone coding is differnt. I think this came up when I wanted to order some futurama DVD's from overseas and I got this lecture.

I do know that they had to clear a few computer memories since the installers didn't pay enough attention to what they were doing in the factory and they selected the wrong language and locatoins for the DVD players and customers were complaining that the DVD drives weren't working.

But even if they do, some one or some bit of technology will be available to circumvent this. Look at cable boxes, CD burners, DVD burners, satelite TV cards...where there's a will there's a way, but I doubt that something like that would ever pass. It would open too big a can of worms. Every retailer would want to jump on this and we'd be shelling out money for every little thing.

Jacen Solo
08-12-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
[B]What a joke. Just another exaple of fat cats trying to leech every last dollar outta us.

What's next Nike only letting you wear its shoes or shirts for 3 weeks and then we have to pay "rent" to keep using it, or keep paying them royalties to advertise their product? IMO, they should be paying us for advertising for them. Most of the time we are walking billboards.

Man, what would happen in Hasbro one day told all of us to give back all their star wars toys or impose a tax or something on what we already own...pay royalites to GL. I smell another boston tea party...


I know what you mean and I agree, I think that if it comes to throwing dvds in the ocean we'll have to drink tea. :eek:

Pendo
08-12-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Just another exaple of fat cats trying to leech every last dollar outta us.

Not all fat cats are that bad!!! :rolleyes:

PENDO!

Vortex
08-12-2002, 04:21 PM
Ok, not ALL fat cats are bad...only 97% and I think most polls have an error factor of what 3%???

hango fett
08-12-2002, 06:35 PM
i saw this on the news today! my dad saw it and said "how would you rent or buy them? if they do that, people wouldn't buy them...it would be counter effective!" i said "yep" and came up here to ...where i am now...that news got out fast if our news stations got it!!
...

sith_killer_99
08-12-2002, 07:30 PM
tjovonovich, you are correct. In fact here's a little history lesson in DVD.

Back in early 1997 the DVD market was REALLY heating up. But there was one MAJOR hang-up. You guessed it...HOLLYWOOD baby.

It seems that the big names (MGM, FOX, etc) were holding out!

They were pressuring Sony (and the gang) for certain GUARANTEES.

First of all they wanted their movies guarded against illegal recording. This was done by encoding the DVD's with Macrovision (or similar type technology).

Second, knowing that there would be a GLOBAL market for DVD's they wanted some type of protection from some guy going overseas (where some copyright laws are not recognized) and getting their movies dirt cheap. So they made regional coding. Simply put, a DVD mfg. in Japan for the Japanese market will (should) only play on a Japanese DVD machine. It all has to do with the type of reader in the machine.

Now for the fun part. A few years back (1999-2000) the DVD drive started to become widely used on home PC's and HAcKarz being haCkArZ...someone discovered a bunch codes for lifting copyright protection and regional coding and ****!

Well a bunch of guys started a website dedicated to ThE CauSe, they posted free downloads to side step the system, codes, all kinds of kewl stuff. Hollywood caught wind of it and...cease and desist order and BAM they got shut down.

Hollywood muscle managed to shut the guys down and make a big enough noise to discourage most HackArZ.

anyway....

:crazed:

scruffziller
08-12-2002, 09:51 PM
There obviously has to be a better way of doing that. It will just take time to get the right practical technology.

Beast
08-12-2002, 09:58 PM
sith_killer_99, MGM, Fox, Disney, etc. were also big supporters of Laserdisc at the time. That's why those companies took longer to jump on the DVD bandwagon. Lucas was also a Laserdisc fan, that's why none of Lucasfilm's properties appeared on DVD for so long. But as the format grew and laserdiscs died, they came on board.

Infact, if you have the Chasing Amy DVD it shows exactly what alot of the film industry thought of DVD at the time. Kevin Smith was a huge Laserdisc fan, when DVD was emerging. And in the audio commentary actually states, "F**K DVD!!". He actually filmed an apology when the Criterion Laserdisc of Chasing Amy was transfered to DVD. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Vortex
08-12-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
tjovonovich, you are correct. In fact here's a little history lesson in DVD.

Hollywood muscle managed to shut the guys down and make a big enough noise to discourage most HackArZ.

anyway....

:crazed:

Long live the hackers and folks in the know. Without these guys pushing the envelops and breaking technology, we wouldn't be as far along as we are now.
Ahhh gotta love free pirate stuff:)
:Pirate:

Needles
08-12-2002, 11:13 PM
Saw a link to this news story posted on one of my DVD sites, and I am furious as hell. If this law actually passes, it's going to destroy the home video market. It's pretty much just DIVX turned into a ludicrous law. Here's a copy of the story, as well as a link to it and to HomeTheaterForum.com's reaction.

I AM ALSO FURIOUS AS HELL!!!!!!!!!!!

bigbarada
08-12-2002, 11:59 PM
The only way they could enforce this would be to try to confiscate the millions of DVD players already in homes and replace them with the new versions. Sorry, I seriously doubt something on that scale would ever take place over DVDs. The Hollywood Studios have a lot of control, but not that much.

In any case, what would then happen to VCRs? VCRs were banned in the US for a long time because of Hollywood, only after people started importing them from Japan did the electronics manufacturers realize that they were missing a very big boat full of money. Then shortly afterward studios came up with the idea of copyguards on all tapes; but those were easy enough to work around (just buy a Hitachi VCR and never worry about copyguards again). This is just the latest step in Hollywood's continuing battle to milk every last cent from it's audience.

Nexu
08-13-2002, 12:34 AM
I get sick of this, I don't mean any offense, but you know damned well that this won't pass, there's no way it can. It's all liberal BS.

bigbarada
08-13-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Ok, not ALL fat cats are bad...only 97% and I think most polls have an error factor of what 3%???

Last I heard, only 99.9999999999999999999999999% of all the rich were evil corrupt tyrants who feed off of the poor and middle class and buy their way into the government in order to give us the illusion that we are living in a free and equal society. They also own the press, which they use to discredit and villify the homeless and destitute with the BS reasoning that those people are where they are because they deserve it. "Blame the individual, not the system.":rolleyes:

Ahem, where were we? Oh yeah, DVDs. I wouldn't worry about that law, even if it does pass somehow it can never be enforced and will only serve to kill the DVD market.

Exhaust Port
08-13-2002, 09:02 AM
I saw something about a technology similar to this about a year ago. It was to have the same DVD limited viewing capability as this purposal but it was for the rental market. It would require a special DVD player but someone would rent a DVD from store with either a time or number of viewings limit encoded into it. Once it's limit was reached the disc was dead. A user could pay to extend the encoded limit by purchasing it through the interface on the DVD player.

Since I only watch a rented movie once I could care less for this technology but perhaps it would find support somewhere.

Beast
08-13-2002, 09:15 AM
It was longer then a year ago, Exhaust Port. That was DIVX, the competitor to DVD. It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Circut City was majorly pushing them about the same time that DVD came out. You could only watch the discs you bought a certain number of times before they locked up, and then if you wanted to watch them again you had to pay to have them unlocked again. And it wasn't just for the rental market, you could buy the discs for really cheap....because you had to pay to watch it more then a few times. I much prefer paying 20.00 or so a disc, to watch it whenever I want. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
08-13-2002, 09:32 AM
BigB, I wanted to touch on your post a bit. I also don't think it has a snowballs chance in hell of passing. But being informed about it is a good thing. Remember as the wise G.I. Joe once said, "Knowing is half the battle." ;) :D Just incase some weird fluke actually gets it passed. I sure hope not, I'm to much a DVD fan to go without my monthly fix. :crazed: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Exhaust Port
08-13-2002, 10:09 AM
Now that you mention it JJB, I remember the Circuit City connection. Boy that sure did get very far.

MikeAndTheBots
08-13-2002, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
That is a pretty retarded idea, and I doubt it will get any further than the idea stage.

The solution for piracy is to make things widely available at low prices. Often DVD prices are much higher than needed to turn a profit. Also, if they want to stop piracy, they should DO something about it. Not just dog and moan about how it is cutting into their profits. Make the FBI actually do investigations, and actually enforce the penalties. As long as people stay small time with their piracy, they know they have nothing to worry about, because they are just a minnow in a small sea of big fish. The FBI only focuses on the big fish. Problem with that is, because piracy is so easy now, there are only a few fish, and the minnows are the ones causing the majority of the "damage".

SO, in my opinion, they should stop price gouging if they want piracy to decrease.
Agreed.

Nexu
08-13-2002, 10:58 AM
Does anyone know where I can get DVD copying software? ;) :p

I'm j/k.

How is DivX the competetor to DVD? Care to explain?

Beast
08-13-2002, 11:07 AM
DivX was being pushed as an alternative to DVD. Circut City and studios like Fox, Disney, etc. backed it because they would get money each time someone watched the movies.

DVD became the prefered format though, because people wanted to own the movies, and watch them whenever they felt like. DivX was pretty much just an extended rental format, because while you owned the discs, you could only watch them if you paid.

Thankfully DivX languished and died, and Fox, Disney, and the other companies that originally held off releasing movies on DVD soon changed their minds and hopped on board, because they saw all that cash going to other studios. Now every studio backs DVD, though a few of them are exploring the D-VHS format now. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Pendo
08-13-2002, 11:11 AM
JJB, will D-VHS ever take over DVD? I hope not because then I'll have to buy all my films on D-VHS again!!! What exactly is it, I know a little about what it is but don't completley know.

PENDO!

Beast
08-13-2002, 11:22 AM
I doubt it Pendo. The thing about D-VHS is, that it's still a tape format, even though it's an improvement on regular VHS. And just like regular VHS, everytime you play a tape, the oxide gets rubbed off by the playing and recording heads.

So while some people say that the D-VHS format offers a better picture the picture quality is still going to deteriorate with every viewing. And I don't really buy the claims that D-VHS has better picture quality, since all that have been released so far on it are big blockbusters. :)

I see it lasting a little while for those videophile people that have to try out every new format, but it's way to expensive right now for the average consumer. I'll stick to DVD thanks. Just can't wait til the DVD Recorders go down in price a bit more, so that I can transfer my Star Wars Laserdiscs to DVD. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Pendo
08-13-2002, 11:23 AM
Thanx for the info JJB :D!

PENDO!

Mandalorian Candidat
08-13-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Pendo
JJB, will D-VHS ever take over DVD? I hope not because then I'll have to buy all my films on D-VHS again!!! What exactly is it, I know a little about what it is but don't completley know.


I seriously doubt that this format will be successful. Remember DATs? Those were supposed to be the big alternative to CDs and where are they now? Taking up space in landfills. I don't see any format where you have to rewind or FF to get to a particular spot on a tape being more popular than that where you only need to hit a button a couple of times to do the same thing.

The only way the HW fatcats could make this format work is if they made a totally new DVD format on new discs that would only work on new DVD players with the decoding ability. These new players would have to have some kind of recording capability to mark a unique code on each disc played in the player in order for it to not work in another unit. They would have to write off all the discs and players here-to-fore sold.

If this happened, I would not buy any of the new discs or players. Once I buy something I should be able to use it until it wears out on its own, not by any built-in lifetime. I paid for it so it's mine. This is analogous to car companies putting in a self-destruct feature in every car once you hit a certain number on the odometer. It's just ridiculous.

JON9000
08-13-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Nexu
It's all liberal BS.

I'm afraid Republicans (Howard Coble) and Democrats (Earnst Hollings) are on board for this one, so it isn't "liberal crap" as you call it. It's corporate welfare. While I'm not a libertarian, their party website gives a little more info on the measure.

http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=575

It stinks.

Nexu
08-13-2002, 11:26 AM
Yeah, DVD burners are way too much $$ right now, and they suck. I saw one that's $600, and it only has a 1 Mb buffer, NOT under-run protected. :rolleyes:

Nexu
08-13-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
This is analogous to car companies putting in a self-destruct feature in every car once you hit a certain number on the odometer. It's just ridiculous.


They do exactly that. Cars could easily last longer, but it's a disadvantage to them, so they don't do it. They also make it purposly harder for people to work on them.

Pendo
08-13-2002, 11:37 AM
What about poor people. A mother has to save up for a whole year to buy her son a DVD, he watches it on Christmas Day and LOVES the film but he can't watch it again until next Christmas until his mother pays for it again!!! It's stupid :rolleyes:! Ok so maybe a poor family wouldn't have a DVD player but it's the same for everyone you will have to pay to watch a film again. I don't struggle for money but that still doesn't mean I would want to pay every time I want to watch MY OWN DVD!!! If this does come into action I won't be using DVDs for much longer.

:mad:

PENDO!

Nexu
08-13-2002, 11:44 AM
It won't.

DeadEye
08-13-2002, 01:16 PM
I say the whole idea is stupid. Why are they limiting the number of times you can view DVDs? To revive the VHS market? VHS is already practically dead...DVD has every advantage over it. Using cheap tactics like this will only persuade DVD enthusiasts to find ways to bypass it.

thespar
08-13-2002, 01:20 PM
heck for those of us who have just come to dvd form vhs. this well be even horrible because not only have we paid the money for the dvd player but we are working at get a favorite moives on dvd only to have to turn and round and buy the movies. heck doing that we should have just keep the vhs and buy pay-per-views and copy the movies that way.

Beast
08-13-2002, 01:24 PM
They are trying to do it, so they get some financial gain out of the DVD's after they are sold. Just think of it from their prespective, even though it's a twisted one. Since the DVD's you own will likely outlive you, the studios don't make any money after the initial purchase.

Where in the case of VHS, sooner or later after you watch it so many times the image quality is going to degrade, the tape will break, or somthing else will happen that requires you to buy another copy. DVD is a sturdy format, so other then double-dipping popular titles, people don't have to buy a replacement copy. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

El Chuxter
08-13-2002, 02:20 PM
Sounds like the movie industry's got the same hang-ups that the music industry does. Both of them need to come up with a way to live with bootlegging. It will always exist. And yet the companies will always make money. People will want to own legitimate copies of the movies.

There's no chance of this passing. Copy protection was released on some CD's recently, and it made them impossible to play on computers. That's already in the process of being shot down. And did you know that in the 1980s, record industry PACs actually proposed a law to tax all blank cassettes being sold because they were afraid that everyone would tape their favorite albums from friends and the record companies would go bust? Sound familiar?

I realized a couple of days ago that, except in a few select cases, it makes no sense to see films at the theater anymore. Prices keep going up, and the movie industry blames everything but that fact for declining attendance. And so they raise prices more to recoup their "losses." To see a film now at the theater, I have to pay at least $15, and that's for a matinee with no snacks! Or I can wait just a couple of months and buy the film on DVD, and someone will most likely have it on sale for less than it would cost in the theater!

And they want to get even more of my money. Ridiculiculiculous! :crazed:

Mandalorian Candidat
08-13-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
To see a film now at the theater, I have to pay at least $15, and that's for a matinee with no snacks!

Are you exaggerating Chuxty? Where do you live that such a theater charges so much? The most I've ever paid was $9 and that was to see EP2 digitally projected at the Irvine Spectrum.

If I had to pay that much I would wait, see it at the $ theater and then buy it on DVD (only on sale of course) if I liked the movie. If my attitude is the norm of the average American, no wonder HW is losing $.

Beast
08-13-2002, 02:50 PM
$15.00 for a matinee with no snacks? Good lord man, where are you seeing movies at. Damn, I knew that California was expensive, but geeez! :greedy: My local theater the matinee showings are $5.50, and the evening shows are like $6.25!! :eek: :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

jonboy
08-13-2002, 02:56 PM
Are the seats in this theater leather and are you served wine with your movie? Maybe he means it is that much for He and a date to get in. It cost me $15 for my fiance and I to see AOTC.

Vortex
08-13-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
They are trying to do it, so they get some financial gain out of the DVD's after they are sold. Just think of it from their prespective, even though it's a twisted one. Since the DVD's you own will likely outlive you, the studios don't make any money after the initial purchase.


Jar Jar I agree with you, bt at the same time I think the film folk are still making big bucks off of us even after we buy a DVD.

Think about the times they keep pulling this "directors" cut, special edition, limited edition, box set, junk where its the same movie maybe some added junk at the end or stuff off the cutting room floor, but they repackage it a few months down the road from the original release and they still make a killing. How many star wars movies do you own? I know I've got 4 copies of ANH, 3 EBS, and at least 4 ROTJ. Tack on the VHS and DVD of Ep. I. Add on a few more for laser disk if you have copies.

Look at all the old forgotten movies new to DVD: Tron, Black Hole, Back to the Future, and old classics. They are still going to make large bucks off forgotten movies, money that never would have been there otherwise.

Beast
08-13-2002, 03:11 PM
I mentioned that in my post that you quoted. But I don't mind them double dipping if they actually offer you more then what was on the first release.

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
DVD is a sturdy format, so other then double-dipping popular titles, people don't have to buy a replacement copy. :)
There are alot of barebones releases that need to be revisited on DVD. The Batman films are one, though I could name tons more. I love the fact that some of those films are being re-issued. Like the upcoming S.E. releases of Gremlins and Gremlins II.

I only own 2 sets of the Star Wars films. The Definitive Collection Laserdisc boxset of the Original versions. And the Laserdisc Boxset of the Special Editions of the films. After seeing the LD versions, the VHS will never do.

As long as the release improves on the previous one, I won't complain to much. Unless they specifically release a barebones, and plan to release a S.E. at a later date. That ticks me off, especially if they don't announce it. If they announce it, I can atleast plan to skip the first one, because it's unneccisary. :(

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

El Chuxter
08-13-2002, 03:24 PM
D'oh! I meant it's $15 for two tickets, since I don't normally go to the theater by myself. Still, it's expensive.

LOTR:FOTR cost my girlfriend and I $17 to see, and (knowing how long it was) another $7.50 for popcorn and soda. By contrast, I bought the DVD last week for $15.56 ($14.44+7.75% CA sales tax).

Edit: I forgot my Bad Song Lyric of Shame for my earlier mistake:
I study nuclear science
I love my classes
I got a crazy teacher who wears dark glasses
Things are going great
And they're only getting better

Beast
08-13-2002, 03:28 PM
El Chuxter, off topic a bit. But isn't it sad that the damn popcorn and pop costs as much or more as the stupid movie ticket. I can pop myself a giant bucket of popcorn and buy a few 2-liters of soda for the cost of the damn snacks at the theater. :mad: :(

Atleast my theaters have been pretty cool. If I decide to have a snack with my movie, I usually will grab some fast food on my way to the theater. They never have given me a hassle yet, and nothing beats a movie with McDonald's, Burger King, or Taco Bell. :)

I worry that one of these days they are gonna put their foot down though. Since technically I guess they really are not supposed to let people bring food into the theater. I just refuse to pay their insane concession prices. :(

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

QLD
08-13-2002, 03:39 PM
I have the habit of saying something smart-arsed to the clerk when I buy food from the concession stand.

I usually ask for lay-away. Or if they finance. Or something to the effect of "This must be that limited edition, gold plated popcorn".

SWAFMAN
08-13-2002, 04:38 PM
It sounds like they're taking a queue from the software industry. Remember how, until only a couple years ago when you bought Anti-Virus software, the virus definition updates were thereafter always free? Now, when you buy the software, all you're buying is the privilege of paying them more $ every year or so for the latest updates. Microsoft has floated the concept of moving away from installing entire Operating Systems as we think of them today, or major applications like Office Suite packages onto individual PC hard drives, to a scheme where we only run a browser-based front-end on our system, and Microsoft keeps the majority of the software (and more important - the code) at their end and acts as the "application server" to your system. I think all the monopoly lawsuits have back-burnered that strategy for a while, though.

I don't want it to happen, but I think the only way the recording and film industries will ever get better control over bootlegging is if they altogether discontinue releasing their properties on any type of recorded media, and transition to an entirely broadband-provided pay-per-use system.

Even in movie theatres, there would have to be a digital cable or satellite link and the movie would be provided by the studio/distributor on a once-at-a-time, per-showing basis.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and is based on nothing I've read or heard. And even if it were possible, any such scenario is a long way off, since broadband and the necessary home receivers/theatres still aren't common enough household items.

But with the ever-increasing speed at which technology advances, I think it's within the realm of possibility that portable, personal stereos ("walkman" & "boomboxes"), car stereos, and home systems for music and movies could all contain digital broadband receivers. In the case of music, it might be a subscription service like today's XFM, or a pay-per-use system charged to your credit or debit card if you wanted to select specific artists.

The governing factor would be that the streams were provided in a secured manner that was ostensibly copy/record-proof (sort of like RealPlayer but more secure), so you'd never receive a "hard copy" of the data.

Of course every system will be hacked or otherwise circumvented, so even this idea wouldn't necessarily safeguard artists/studios/publishers from infringements. In my scenario, you could just use a digital video or audio recorder to capture the incoming broadcast as it's played back on your receiver.

Oh well, Sony. Any way you try to prevent it, you're still gonna get screwed. And the harder you make it for those determined to steal your property, the more average consumers you're going to drive away by making their access to your goods too much of a hassle to bother with.

JON9000
08-13-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
But isn't it sad that the damn popcorn and pop costs as much or more as the stupid movie ticket. I can pop myself a giant bucket of popcorn and buy a few 2-liters of soda for the cost of the damn snacks at the theater. :mad: :(

Atleast my theaters have been pretty cool. If I decide to have a snack with my movie, I usually will grab some fast food on my way to the theater. They never have given me a hassle yet, and nothing beats a movie with McDonald's, Burger King, or Taco Bell. :)


I think theaters hardly make any money from ticket sales, at least for the first few weeks of a movie's release- that all goes to the studio. given the number of films coming out these days, most movies have hardly any shelf life at all. No wonder concessions cost so much.

Be careful what you bring into a theater- some moron brought in chinese food during AOTC and sat next to me. The smell was overpowering.

Pendo
08-13-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by JON9000
Be careful what you bring into a theater- some moron brought in chinese food during AOTC and sat next to me. The smell was overpowering.

LOL that reminds me of a 90 year old man who always comes into the Showcase and he watched all the films you'd least expect him to watch; 40 Days and 40 Nights, American Pie 1 and 2, Not Another Teen movie, Scary movie 1 and 2. He is really funny every week I see him and he always comes with 4 cans of Lager and EVERY week without fail he knocks one over and it rolls all the way down to the end of the screen :rolleyes:! Also every week he will get up half way through the film and buy a cinema hotdag and come back and sit in a different seat. What IS the point???

Anyway, back on topic...
I think somebody should go to thepetitionsite.com and start up a petition about this. I'd do it myself but EVERY SINGLE petition I have submitted have been rejected :mad:.

PENDO!

Beast
08-13-2002, 07:41 PM
TheDigitalbits.com updated with something quite intresting. A few of you mentioned that VCR's went thru a similar thing in Congress back in the 80's. Well, TDB.com posted a transcript of some of the comments from back then, that sound a hell of a lot like what is being said. It didn't pass back then, so that proves that it's unlikely to pass now. Here is the story from that site. :)

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, Jack Valenti and the MPAA led the political charge against the VCR, decreeing that it would mean The End of the Film Industry. It was as if the sky were falling and Jack were Chicken Little. Ultimately, he turned out to be more like the boy who cried "Wolf!"

Here's a quick sampling of Jack's own words before Congress in 1982, so you can see for yourself what he had to say...

"American films and television dominate the screens of the world and that just didn't happen. It happened because of the quality and caliber and the imagination and the way people construct fragile imaginings that we call the American film. But now we are facing a very new and a very troubling assault on our fiscal security, on our very economic life and we are facing it from a thing called the video cassette recorder and its necessary companion called the blank tape. And it is like a great tidal wave just off the shore. This video cassette recorder and the blank tape threaten profoundly the life-sustaining protection, I guess you would call it, on which copyright owners depend, on which film people depend, on which television people depend and it is called copyright."
And here's more...

"Because unless the Congress recognizes the rights of creative property owners as owners of private property, that this property that we exhibit in theaters, once it leaves the post-theatrical markets, it is going to be so eroded in value by the use of these unlicensed machines, that the whole valuable asset is going to be blighted. In the opinion of many of the people in this room and outside of this room, blighted, beyond all recognition. It is a piece of sardonic irony that this asset, which unlike steel or silicon chips or motor cars or electronics of all kinds -- a piece of sardonic irony that while the Japanese are unable to duplicate the American films by a flank assault, they can destroy it by this video cassette recorder."
You see... blame the Japanese. And there's more...

"Now, these machines are advertised for one purpose in life. Their only single mission, their primary mission is to copy copyrighted material that belongs to other people. I don't have to go into it. The ads are here. Here is Sony that tells you that you can record one channel while watching another. You can program to record a variety of shows on four different channels for up to 14 days in advance if you like."
OH MY GOD - SAY IT ISN'T SO, JACK!

"Now, the question comes, well, all right, what is wrong with the VCR. One of the Japanese lobbyists, Mr. Ferris, has said that the VCR -- well, if I am saying something wrong, forgive me. I don't know. He certainly is not MGM's lobbyist. That is for sure. He has said that the VCR is the greatest friend that the American film producer ever had. I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone."
Wow. No crap - he actually said that before Congress (go to this link (http://chron.edgecity.net/story/2002/6/1/105724/6394) and you can read the full transcript of Jack's testimony, circa 1982). Of course, Congress wisely took such impassioned ravings as... ahem... overkill. And since Jack wrote the book on what I like to call the "copyright fire drill", the VCR went on to almost single-handedly save the motion picture industry, by creating a vast, voracious and untapped market for the consumption of films in the comfort of home. Guess Mr. Ferris was right, Jack.

Now here we are, some twenty years later, and the RIAA and MPAA and yes... even Jack Valenti... are sounding the same impassioned copyright siren song. This isn't about copyright... it's about control. If the entertainment industry had its way, we'd be living in a world where you didn't own a copy of a movie or CD... you'd have to download it from them and pay for every listen. So what is the entertainment industry doing to keep that control? For one, they've crafted a bill that's going through the House now (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-946316.html?tag=rn) that would allow them to legally hack into peoples' computers and cause disruptions if they suspect that file sharing is going on. This in a time when fears about cyber-warfare are at an all time high (http://news.com.com/2100-1017-949605.html) , for good reason. Hollywood wants to be able to go to digital war, against some of its most loyal consumer supporters, and get the government's blessing to do so. This bill is a nightmare.

Now, we're all for the rights of copyright holders to protect their works. But there's GOT to be a better solution than letting Hollywood start legally exacting vigilante justice. And we're wondering if our already log-jammed legal system would be negatively impacted by the fact that the record industry is considering filing lawsuits against individual on-line file-traders (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-941547.html?tag=bplst). Let's see... Napster had 50 million users. Morpheus has 90 million registered users. Kazaa has 75 million. Message to Hollywood and the record industry: It's time to get real, folks. In the post-9/11 world, I think the Justice Department and American legal system have better things to do.

There's a rational way to survive the era of digital file-sharing and broadband distribution, just like there was a way to survive the VCR and cassette recorder. And strong-arming everyone isn't it. In fact, as it was with the VCR, I'll bet there's a way to make loads of money with these same technologies that you're now decreeing as The End of the Industry - money beyond your wildest dreams. Think about it! You've got a pipeline that leads directly into the computers of your most fervent consumers... and you want to hack and sue them?

It's time for consumers to get active on this. Write to your elected officials (http://thomas.loc.gov/home/faqlist.html#seven), folks. Weigh in. Because the entertainment industry is OFFICIALLY out of control.

That's just my two cents. Back with more later.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

derek
08-13-2002, 09:28 PM
if anyone didn't read the link Jon9000 posted, do so. this same bill, if passed would make the linux operating system illegal. it would make posting the operating system code illegal. this is crazy. this is one of the reasons the government went after microsoft, to get them to reveal their operating system code.
crazy!

:crazed:

sith_killer_99
08-13-2002, 09:52 PM
Ban the linux operating system?

HAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha


Hahahahahahahahaha.


How can you ban something that's FREE???


What are they going to do BAN ALL FREE SOFTWARE?


This is too insane for me to comprehend. It will NEVER happen.:crazed:

plasticfetish
08-14-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
They are trying to do it, so they get some financial gain out of the DVD's after they are sold. Just think of it from their prespective, even though it's a twisted one. Since the DVD's you own will likely outlive you, the studios don't make any money after the initial purchase.
Where in the case of VHS, sooner or later after you watch it so many times the image quality is going to degrade, the tape will break, or somthing else will happen that requires you to buy another copy. DVD is a sturdy format, so other then double-dipping popular titles, people don't have to buy a replacement copy.

I wonder how much money they've made because of the novelty factor of DVDs though ... if people know they are more durable and a higher quality aren't they more likely to invest? Compared to spending money on an overpriced VHS cassette (think about the prices before DVDs came out) that would have been cheaper to rent. Not to mention the money they've make off of people re-buying all of the movies they'd collected on VHS and now want to own on a DVD ... which costs next to nothing to produce.

I think they make more money now off of "impulse" buyers too ... before, you weren't likely to buy a VHS of every silly movie you saw ... now, it's only a little more to buy a DVD than it is to rent it a few times or watch it on Payperview. I see people at Target tossing those $10 DVDs in their cart all the time ...

... I'm sure this kind of story is just a way to get people buzzing about DVDs and get them fighting to protect a commodity that someone else is generating a pure profit from in the first place.

OriginalBryGuy
08-14-2002, 09:55 AM
Remember the DivX format by Circuit City that flopped. Whatever report this originally came out of I don't think we're in any danger of loosing the DVD format we all know and love. No one is going to buy limited viewing movies, hence, even if the law did come into effect, studios would loose money, gripe, and the law would suddenly go down the tubes.

Nexu
08-14-2002, 10:02 AM
DivX is the still around, actually, now that you mention it, a lot of DVD rips are in DivX format.

JON9000
08-14-2002, 10:26 AM
Ah DIVX. I will never shop at Circuit City again. I find Richard Sharpe reprehensible and I'm glad his sorry idea caused the company to lose its shirt.

JEDIpartner
08-14-2002, 11:35 AM
I don't know if this had been mentioned, but what happens if the original DVD player breaks and you have to get a new player... the movie would stop playing even if you just had only viewed it once? Stupid. They don't think, do they? I personally don't see this happening.

JON9000
08-14-2002, 02:49 PM
Divx had a similar dilemma- they set up a 1-800 line for such occurances.

hango fett
08-14-2002, 07:42 PM
i really hope the senate gets some brains and doesn't legalize this! this would be extremly dumd on just about every aspect...you couldn't rent them, you wouldn't watch them over a certain # of times, alot of people wouldn't get them anymore..........ididots....
:rolleyes::mad:

SWAFMAN
08-21-2002, 06:03 PM
sorta on-topic...

US Justice Department ready to prosecute file-swappers (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2121102,00.html)

Nexu
08-21-2002, 09:13 PM
Under the NET Act, signed by President Clinton in 1997, it is a federal crime to share copies of copyrighted products such as software, movies or music with anyone, even friends or family members, if the value of the work exceeds $1,000 (about 640). Violations are punishable by one year in prison, or if the value tops $2,500, "not more than five years" in prison.


That's IT???? Wow. And I thought I was going to go away for a loooooooong time. ;) :p

It's stupid, like they will actaully ban Mp3 players. :rolleyes:

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
08-21-2002, 10:16 PM
Don't you like living in the U.S. or as what I like to call it -- NAZI GERMANY! (borrowed from Norm MacDonald)

This measure sounds like something Congressmen and women would tuck in an appropriation bill or something. Very few people vote against these types of bills because they contain pork spending for special projects in each Congressman and Senators district. Most adhere to the principal, "I won't against your pork if you don't vote against mine." It really has nothing to do with pork, the DVD viewing law, but people know it would get out right defeated if it was voted on seperately, but if it was thrown in a conglomerate of measures, it might have a better chance of getting passed.

I'm not saying that this is going to happen, but that is one way Congress enacts unpopular measures like this DVD viewing law.

Lord Tenebrous
08-21-2002, 10:51 PM
I still love this wonderful Sharp quote:


But Divx faces major resistance from retailers and early DVD adopters. If Divx bombs and the company ends up bankrumpt, players will be unable to communicate with Divx's host systems and Divx discs - including unlocked discs and Divx Gold discs - will be unplayable (Regular DVDs could still be played, however.) Asked whether funds were being set aside to provide for such a contingency, Sharp said no. "Believe me, we'll be there."
- Stereo Review, December 1997


As far as the DivX AVI format, that's just, as the distributor says,
the best compression technology for high-resolution movies. The DivX codec...is becoming the standard for high quality video over IP networks because it hits the sweet spot between superior visual quality and small file size. With a broadband connection, you can download a full-length feature film in the time it takes to have a pizza delivered!
(DivX is a trademark of DivXNetworks, Inc.)


So, if this goes into effect, you'll have cinema-recorded DivX bootlegs on the Internet, and few buying the Divx-like discs and player. Then when this 'rental' format dies again, we'll be back to typical DVD.

Stupidity comes in cycles, mostly because it can't remember what it did wrong the first time. ;)

Nexu
08-21-2002, 10:55 PM
Most bootleg movies are in DivX.

plo koon 200
08-21-2002, 11:22 PM
This is as ridiciuolus as the law that was passed about HD TV's in 2006 which will defiently cause TV ratings to go way, way, way down.

Patient Zero
08-21-2002, 11:25 PM
This is the most ridiculus thing that I have ever heard! Where did anyone find this info? I have heard nothing in the media about it. I want to kill someone.

JEDIpartner
08-22-2002, 10:31 AM
I want to kill someone regardless of this issue...! :evil:




























just kidding. :happy:

pthfnder89
08-22-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Nexu
DivX is the still around, actually, now that you mention it, a lot of DVD rips are in DivX format.

This is something that causes some people a lot of confusion Nexu.

The bootlegged movies that are floating around Kazaa and Morpheous are encoded in the DivX format. Just like the Quicktime or Mpeg formats, DivX is simply a way of compressing and encoding a video file, like a movie.

This is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than DivX DVDs that Circuit City promoted. The DivX DVD's were the same as any regular DVD except that you had to connect via phone line to Circuit City's computer system to get permission to run it.

It's obviously confusing because they have the exact same name, but the DivX file format (commonly used for bootlegs) and Circuit City's DivX DVDs are completely different things. :)

Patient Zero
08-22-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I want to kill someone regardless of this issue...! :evil:
just kidding. :happy:

No, see you have to ;) . ;) makes it all better.