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MikeAndTheBots
08-18-2002, 12:20 AM
Watchmen.

Bask in its glory. Probably one of the single greatest comic series ever put on paper. I got the trade paper back today and I jsut couldn't put it down. It was just fantastic. The characters were all great, I hated the Comedian but he grew to one of the coolest characters in the series by the end. Rorschach was pretty cool and Dr. Manhatten was just amazingly cool. The ending was just great, great dialogue, great plot, great art, its just preatness personified.
It's too bad Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, and DC couldn't get an agreement on the figures, those previews they had in Toyfare a while back looked very cool.

Discuss this piece of comic history...

Yu_
08-19-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by MikeAndTheBots
It's too bad Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, and DC couldn't get an agreement on the figures, those previews they had in Toyfare a while back looked very cool.


I must have missed this, what are you reffering to?

MikeAndTheBots
08-19-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Yu_


I must have missed this, what are you reffering to?
There was going to be a line of watchmen toys from DC Direct that were to come out in early 2001. First line was the Comedian and Dr Manhatten, the next Nite Owl and Silk Spectre (the younger ones of course) and the third line was going to be Rorschach, an un-announced figure and one of Adrian (his alter-ego's name escapes me). They had pictures in Toyfare and on some eb sites, and they had previees of the Comedian, Dr Manhatten and Silk Spectre but before they could be put out or even put into production Alan Moore backed out and evntually Dave Gibbons did two, so for the 15th anniversery there were to be toys and a hardcover edition, both cancelled.

billfremore
08-19-2002, 01:41 PM
This has to be, without a doubt one of if not the finest comic story ever crafted.

I've been reading it over and over for years and I always find something new.

A hardcover would have been nice, because my trade is getting a little dog-eared. :)

Bel-Cam Jos
08-20-2002, 11:19 AM
As a non-SW comic, this is more of a Miscellaneous thread. I'm moving it there, with a re-direct.

MikeAndTheBots
08-20-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
As a non-SW comic, this is more of a Miscellaneous thread. I'm moving it there, with a re-direct.
Oops, I thought it meant for comics and books in general...

JediCole
08-20-2002, 02:26 PM
Bless you MikeAndTheBots!
Somewhere buried in the vastly archives of Sir Steve's forums was a call to all who loved the comic and wanted the figures to petion DC Comics to produce them anyway. But that is another story and I will say more of that in a moment.

For now, I applaud Mike for not only having a super cool member name (MSTies Unite!), but foremost for bringing Watchmen to the attention of others here at Sir Steves.

I gathered from your post that your first real exposure to the (originally) 12 issue mini-series was in the trade paperback form, which has remained perpetually in print since roughly a year after the end of the series. A fact that most are not aware of is that Alan Moore was hired to do a definative revamping of DC's newly acquired characters from the Charlston Comics corral (Nightshade, The Question, Blue Beetle, et. al.). What he gave them would have destoryed or inexorably altered the better part of these characters, so a compromise was made that brought us a much stronger finished product. Watchmen. For one thing, Captain Atom does not easily slot into the role of Dr. Manhatten. He's just too goofy by design and in general. Though Nightshade may have made an effective Silk Spectre replacement, her origins place her too much in the realm of magic and mysticism to have truly shared the role seen in Watchmen. Peace Maker could by degrees become something akin to the Comedian, but it would still lack the gallows humor and the tragic irony that made that charactrer sympathetic despite his all too numerous faults. Even Blue Beetle and The Question, who are cut from much the same cloth as their replacements in Watchmen would seem out of place in the context of the story that so deeply touches the lives of all of the characters.

For those unfamiliar with this series, it remains to this day at the top of my "Recommended Reading" list, and is amoung the greatest influences to my own writing. The thing to remember if you choose to seek this collection out is that this is a story about characters who are now, or have bee, "super heroes". But do not read the title, "Watchmen" as "The Watchmen". This is not the story of the adventures of a group like The Avengers or The Justice League. In the context of this tale, "Watchmen" is merely the title of the series, and a prevailing theme. This particular misnomer was pleasantly absent in this thread (again I applaud you MikeAndTheBots), but appears often in the worst places (like Sam Hamm's early Watchmen screenplay from the 80's featuring a quote that included a police officer saying, "It's The Watchmen!" upon the arrival of Dr. Manhatten, Nite Owl, and The Comedian, and more recently in a print interview with X-Men's David Hayter in which he blatently stated that The Watchmen are a group that band together to fight crime then fall apart at the seams!) There is no group called The Watchmen at any point in the entire story. Moore's purpose in this series was to come as close as possible to the reality of a world where super heroes walk amoung us. And what he delivers is unique in all of comic book history.

This is a powerful narrative that follows closely the lives and relationships of six key characters. Some have worked together in the past, most have not. Moore once said of "Watchmen" that he wanted to create a world where the presence of the super hero was not simply, "everything is the same as we know it now, only there are just guys flying overhead". What this story seeks to reveal is what the super hero does to society, what pressures are put upon normal law enforcement as well as on those who have taken up the mask and cape.

And on a final note, touched on above, those who have read and enjoyed Watchmen, or those who discover it for the first time, if you feel as I do that DC Direct should still come out with the figures, please write or email DC Comics. Though Moore and Gibbons withdrew support for a 15th anniversary celebration (due to Moore's on-again-off-again fued with DC), the bottom line is that DC Comics owns Watchmen lock, stock, and barrel! And we did not need an anniversary celebration to see figures of Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Swamp Thing, Plastic Man, Preacher, Sandman, Lobo, or the dozens of other characters to date be made and find their way into comic shops and fan collections! Too bad that DC missed the chance to celebrate in style. It is unfortunate that Moore is a moody Englishman with a penchant for dramatics. But Watchmen belongs to DC Comics and they frankly do not need the stamp of approval from Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, or even the series colorist John Higgins to go forward with plans for a series of figures! Help me stamp out stupidity at DC Comics an DC Direct! I thank you!

Besides, ever since the "toy prototypes" appeared in the back of one of the issues (in the context of the story, mind you), I've wanted my Rorschach and Nite Owl figures! And Bubastis!

plasticfetish
08-20-2002, 03:49 PM
I think I may go back and buy this again ... I haven't read The Watchmen since my first semester at college ('87) and I remember enjoying it quite a bit. It was probably the last "comic book" I've really read since ... or been genuinely engrossed with I suppose.

I hear they're working on a movie version.
<ironic joke> I'm really getting tired of these schlocky Hollywood movies bringing down the artistic integrity of comic books these days. </ironic joke>

billfremore
08-20-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by MikeAndTheBots
...and one of Adrian (his alter-ego's name escapes me)

Adrian Veidt's 'superhero' name was Ozymandias.

I realize it's not relevant to the current discussion I just wanted answer this question.

JediCole
08-20-2002, 11:48 PM
Thank you Billfremore, I managed not to drop that name in my informative reveiw of the series. Many thanks.

Plasticfetish, I sincerly hope that your use of the title "The Watchmen" is tongue-in-cheek. Or perhaps you had not read my tirade on that aspect of the series yet. Just some good natured ribbing.

Another tidbit of information that escaped my initial, off the top of my head draft above was that Watchmen is intended for mature readers and is labeled as such. The story would have lost a lot had it adhered to even contemporary Comic Code Authority standards. The violence, though limited, is unflinching and often brutal, there is nudity (though not the traditional comic book gratuitous type), and themes throughout that are truly intended for a mature, adult audience.

I use the above as a preface for the following, more of my "Recommended Reading" list (in no particular order):

Batman The Killing Joke
Kingdom Come
Batman The Dark Knight Returns
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Legion of Super Heroes The Great Darkness Saga
Omaha the Cat Dancer
V for Vendetta
Swamp Thing (Alan Moore's run)
Marvels
Spider-Man Kraven's Last Hunt
Aliens vs. Predator

The above are just samples of what I consider amoung the best of the best in the contemporary history of comics. Thanks to a recent move on the part of DC Comics that rescued the Legion of Super-Heroes story from obscurity (it was one of only a handful of DC tradepaperbacks to ever fall out of print), almost all of the above are readily available in trade paperbacks or collectons, as well as their original individual issues if you can find those. Some of the above are intended for mature audiences and all have influenced my writing. Check them out if you get the chance.

plasticfetish
08-21-2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by JediCole
Plasticfetish, I sincerly hope that your use of the title "The Watchmen" is tongue-in-cheek. Or perhaps you had not read my tirade on that aspect of the series yet. Just some good natured ribbing.

<hee>
Sorry ... yes, I forgot my "quotes" ... and no, I generally never miss a good tirade.

:]

bigbarada
08-21-2002, 12:18 AM
Watchmen was, quite simply, the most engrossing and amazing comic book story I have ever read. I recommend it to everyone I know and have convinced several of my non-comic-collecting friends to buy a copy. Which they read and loved.

Anybody who thinks that comic books are an inferior form of literature and only tell disposable, trite stories about one-dimensional superheroes, really needs to read this book. It will change your life.

As for "The Watchmen" movie, if Hollywood doesn't plan to do the story justice then don't bother. No need to tarnish this flawless story with a commercialized movie cash-in attempt. Just the thought of Rorshach and Dr. Manhattan as McDonald's Happy Meal toys makes my skin crawl.

jjreason
08-21-2002, 02:52 AM
Everyone with any interest, even fleeting, in comics should read it. I personally need to read it again, it's been too long. Brilliant.
Funny though, I remember being put off by the colouring for just a quick second - if you open the book and think it looks too weird you need to suck it up and keep going. It's as good as "grownup" comics get. Can't go too far wrong with Alan Moore.

billfremore
08-21-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by JediCole
I use the above as a preface for the following, more of my "Recommended Reading" list (in no particular order):

Batman The Killing Joke
Kingdom Come
Batman The Dark Knight Returns
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Legion of Super Heroes The Great Darkness Saga
Omaha the Cat Dancer
V for Vendetta
Swamp Thing (Alan Moore's run)
Marvels
Spider-Man Kraven's Last Hunt
Aliens vs. Predator


I would like to add a few more to that list:

Astro City: Life in the Big City
Astro City: Confessions
JLA: Earth 2
Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters
Batman: Year One

All in all great reading.

JediCole
08-21-2002, 04:16 PM
billfremore to the rescue!

I was wracking my brain when I posted my recommended reading list and I cannot believe I forgot the Astro City collections! My brain checked out!

Also, Bill Willingham's initial run on The Elementals (hard to find as "The Spontaneous Generation" trade paperback is out of print and to my knowledge that was all that the now defunct Comico <strangely enough pronounced kohmeeko, not kahmicko as one would expect, no wonder they went out of business!> never commited any more to a trade).

Also by Willingham and worth noting, Pantheon from Lone Star Press. I understand that eventually they will be commiting the initial story arc to a trade paperback, so I am holding out for that. My best friend loaned me his copies of the first nine or ten issues but I am anxious to see where things went from there.

MikeAndTheBots
08-22-2002, 11:33 PM
Wow, I've never been aplauded so many times :D
I agree with JediCole and everyone else in the thread on basically everything they said, the only time "watchmen" actually comes up in the comics in on some grafetti (SP) (I mean the "Who watches the watchmen?" thing). They weren't The Watchmen and they weren't superheroes. That movie idea sounds just...stupid. As BB what said, do it right or not at all. Basically everyone in this thread is right.

nice avatar Bill, Rorschach was probably my favorite since he didn't give up for what he believed in.

El Chuxter
12-17-2008, 07:05 PM
Just the thought of Rorshach and Dr. Manhattan as McDonald's Happy Meal toys makes my skin crawl.

"Mommy, my toy smells like BO!"
"Well, trade with your sister. She's asking why the blue guy has a third leg, anyway."