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View Full Version : The final Battle with Dooku... (and other alternate paths)



JEDIpartner
08-29-2002, 08:06 AM
I don't know how many of you have thought this, but every time I see the film I just think that Obi-Wan should have held off Dooku and let Anakin run into the Solar Sailer and slash it all up so Dooku couldn't escape in it.

I always think that if both Ani and Obi-Wan had been injured and Yoda came in to fight Dooku... it would have been more exciting if they (and we) think he is stranded on Geonosis only to find that he has another ship waiting OR he hijacks a republic craft. He could have run to the other craft while Yoda was trying to keep the tower from falling on Ani and Obi-Wan.

Any other thoughts on alternate paths the film could have taken?

Darkross
08-29-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I don't know how many of you have thought this, but every time I see the film I just think that Obi-Wan should have held off Dooku and let Anakin run into the Solar Sailer and slash it all up so Dooku couldn't escape in it.

I always think that if both Ani and Obi-Wan had been injured and Yoda came in to fight Dooku... it would have been more exciting if they (and we) think he is stranded on Geonosis only to find that he has another ship waiting OR he hijacks a republic craft. He could have run to the other craft while Yoda was trying to keep the tower from falling on Ani and Obi-Wan.

Any other thoughts on alternate paths the film could have taken?

This is one part of the movie that I really thought was cheezy...Obi-Wan was merely scratched and fell to the ground unable to fend off D'ooku. Anakin lost an arm and passed out from shock...that I can understand...but the whole Yoda thing with the pillar...he should have force-threw it into D'ooku ship...preventing him from taking off...IMHO.

JesusFreak
08-29-2002, 12:57 PM
I think it woulda been cool if Ani and Padme got married in the middle of the movie while still on Naboo, then in the end Dooku throws down the things on Ani and Obi-Wan, Yoda tries to stop it, while Padme and the Clonetroopers arrive. Dooku jumps on the ship, Dooku force pushes the troopers off the ship and takes Padme hostage. End of the movie. I know this wouldnt have worked too well but its a nice cliff hanger for Ep. 3

Darkross
08-29-2002, 03:21 PM
Yeah...then it would be ROTJ all over...starting with Padme's rescue! BORRRRINNNG!

Chewtobacco
08-29-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I don't know how many of you have thought this, but every time I see the film I just think that Obi-Wan should have held off Dooku and let Anakin run into the Solar Sailer and slash it all up so Dooku couldn't escape in it.

The main problem with this theory is that it doesn't take into consideration Anakin and Obi-Wan's arrogance. Anakin obviously felt that he was dealing with some old man and they didn't need to take him cautiously. Obi-Wan felt he could take Dooku too. It all made sense... except one thing.

When Yoda was fighting Dooku, Dooku force-moved that big metal cylinder thing on top of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yoda, wanting to protect them stopped it, but only very slowly. Like he had a problem with the mass or weight of the object. That makes no sense! In ESB, he had no problem moving Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp. Yoda should have been able to move that huge metal thing quickly. THEN, while Dooku jumped on his solar ship, Yoda should have force-moved Dooku's ship into the wall. Even veered it off course would have been effective. I don't understand why he didn't slam that solar ship into the rock walls of the cave.

Don't you agree that would not only have been possible, but the most logical course of action?

Jedi Clint
08-29-2002, 10:17 PM
Unless Dooku was using the force to push the pillar down on top of the Jedi. That would mean that Yoda was straining against Dooku, not the weight of the object.

Chewtobacco
08-29-2002, 10:24 PM
Dooku wasn't forcing anything... he was tucking his tail between his legs and running to his solar ship to run back to mommy (Darth Sideous).

JesusFreak
08-30-2002, 10:22 AM
Yeah, I was confused by that too. Yoda looked liked he was putting up a big struggle to get that away from them, yet dooku controlled it with one hand fairly easily.

Darkross
08-30-2002, 10:45 AM
That scene has bothered me for a long time now...

Yoda: (To Luke in ESB) "Size matters not...judge me by my size do you?...it (the Force) illuminates the weak...not this crude matter (referring to physical strength)."

I don't see how or why Yoda struggled so much with that pillar...maybe this is something that only JarJar can explain.

Sith Lord 0498
08-30-2002, 12:22 PM
There can be a couple possibilities to this problem:

1) Yoda was trying to make Luke understand that he needed to be confident in his abilities. Remember--he was being trained to take on the Dark Lords of the Sith. Perhaps there are limitations to what a Jedi can accomplish with the Force (after all, Geonosis was a slaughterhouse caused by Battle Droids).

2) Yoda was weakened by his battle with Darth Tyranus. He is 800+ years old, and his lightsaber fighting style probably required heavy use of the Force to execute. I doubt his cane is just a fashion statement. By the time he had to stop the pillar, he might have been running on fumes. This would also explain why he couldn't hoist and whip the object at the Solar Sailer.

3) Yoda absorbed Darth Tyranus' Sith lightning. True, Obi-Wan did it also, but he used his lightsaber to absorb the energy. Yoda absorbed it into his own body, and the second time it did appear as though it was painful for him. Perhaps the lightning did weaken him, but not to the extent that it weakened Anakin and later Luke and Darth Vader.

Jedi Clint
08-30-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Chewtobacco
Dooku wasn't forcing anything... he was tucking his tail between his legs and running to his solar ship to run back to mommy (Darth Sideous).

Who's to say he wasn't doing both at the same time? Vader had his focus on his duel with Luke while he used the force to rip things off the walls and throw them at him.

darthvyn
08-30-2002, 09:31 PM
well, the jedi's power over the force is diminished... going with my balance prophecy theory, by the time yoda is training luke on dagobah, he has much more power and control over the force, being the only fully trained jedi master in the galaxy... this could explain his strain at the lifting of the pilar, while he lifts the x-wing with ease...

Nexu
08-30-2002, 09:47 PM
Well, there wasn't a pilot in the ship? I'm not sure, and neither was Yoda. :) I'm sure that Yoda didn't want to hurl that giant pillar, and end up crushing an "innocent."

JesusFreak
08-30-2002, 09:51 PM
The "person" in the Solar Sailer was just a droid to pilot the ship.

DeadEye
08-31-2002, 07:25 AM
I don't think Yoda ever intended to kill Dooku--his own Padawan!--but just make him realize that his master still "0wned" him. :p

187-Maul
08-31-2002, 12:52 PM
well IMO first, Yoda was weakened from the fight and second, Dooku only had to give the pillar a little push to let it fall down but yoda had to "fight" against the weight going down (remember, gravity?) and then had to lift it even more and then to the side
it's easier to lift a resting object (x-wing) then to catch and lift a falling object (pillar)

at least that's what I think...

Chiesa
08-31-2002, 03:46 PM
Ok Ok lets not digrest too much into why Yoda had to use too much strength to actually hold up the pillar etc...

Imagine if Padme hadn't fall of the ship and actually made it with Obi Wann and Ani to the hangar... How different would the battle have turned out? Would (1) Ani fight much harder and better just to impress his pretty damsel or (2) will he get distracted cause Dooku will most probably stirke Padme down unconcious (of course she cannot die or else there won't be the classic trilogy) with his evil lightning!

Sounds cool?

Cheers
:crazed:

Darth Marra 54
09-01-2002, 06:16 PM
The major thing that still brothers me about the final battle is the awsome power of Dooku. That guy is tough. He handles and I mean handles Obi Wan then spanks Anakin the "choosen one" like a little boy. Then finally after wipping two powerful jedi in less than two minutes he takes on the most powerful jedi of them all, Yoda. Dooku fights Yoda to a draw! I know Yoda made him run like a chicken but I thought Yoda would at least knock his saber out of his hand or damage him or something. Why is Dooku made out to be so powerfull. I guess the darkside is stronger. Dooku fought and won aganist two Jedi and fought a draw to Yoda all in five minutes! I thought Anakin was the best of all the Jedi!

Darth Marra 54
09-01-2002, 06:21 PM
The only thing I can think of to be the reason as why Dooku is made out to be so strong and unstoppable in ATOC is because it will show us the power of Anakin in Episode 3 when he gives into his anger and strikes Dooku down and takes the dark lord's place at Sidious's side!

DeadEye
09-01-2002, 06:50 PM
Dooku is the most powerful of all Jedi, except maybe Yoda. Dooku is more powerful than Vader, from what we've seen in the existing five movies. Unless Vader is stronger in Ep3 than in the OT, I think Vader will defeat Dooku in Ep3 by putting him at some kind of disadvantage.

Beast
09-01-2002, 07:34 PM
Dooku is not more powerful then Anakin, he's just more experienced. Anakin as of AOTC's has only had about 10 years of training. Where as Dooku has been trained from birth and is well versed in the Jedi arts, as well as being trained in the Sith arts as well. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JesusFreak
09-01-2002, 08:09 PM
IMO Dooku wasn't lying when he was the strongest jedi (for now), Yoda is old and getting weak, Dooku I'd say is in his prime, he may be kinda old but he has mastered the force. In a one on one match with no distractions I bet Dooku would win. Dooku needed to get back to sidious to inform him of whats happened so he couldnt kill Yoda then. I think the only reason he fought Yoda at all and didnt just leave after he had defeated obi-wan and anakin was because he wanted to test his power against the (in his mind) 2nd most powerful jedi. Maybe I'm just a little bit (;)) biased towards dooku since he's my fav. sith, but I truely think he's stronger than Yoda, I'll hate to see him die :(

Darth Marra 54
09-01-2002, 08:31 PM
I just don't like the idea of Dooku being so strong. I guess because I am not as used to him as say Yoda or Obi Wan or even Anakin. I mean he has only stared in one movie while Yoda has been a main charatcer in the Star Wars storyline for over 20 years. I just aways thought Yoda was the best as he is shown in ESB ROTJ and TPM. I just don't think that enough of Dooku's background and character has been presented enough on screne to make him believable as the most powerfull of all the Jedi!

mini-rock
09-02-2002, 12:36 AM
I believe Dooku knew he was going to lose to Yoda, and that is why he struck the pilar so he could use the time it would take Yoda to catch & throw the pilar to escape.

Yeah, he definitly wanted to face his former Master otherwise he would not have used Sith lightning twice, and then draw his saber. Doku was overconfident after defeating 2 Jedi, and thought he could take out his former Master, but Dooku is also wise enough to know when he's gonna lose and retreat.

187-Maul
09-02-2002, 03:40 PM
if you read the comic (which I think is based on the original plot) you see that while dooku fights against yoda, he grabs a second lightsaber (like in some pics) cause he's not strong enough and fights with them but again loses one lightsaber due to the immense power of yoda and then he realizes he will lose the fight and starts the hole pillar thing (you know the rest)
there you can see that yoda IS more powerfull then dooku

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 01:05 PM
Yoda has no intention of killing dooku. And it certainly isn't a "draw" when one combatant resorts to causing a diversion so he can scamper away like a little school girl in a kilt!

Earlier someone said obi wan was cocky, and that he thought he could take dooku alone. Not at all. It was Obi who said "we'll" take him together. It was only after anakin acted like the dolt he is that Obi was forced to confront dooku one on one.

Darth Marra 54
09-19-2002, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
[B]Yoda has no intention of killing dooku. And it certainly isn't a "draw" when one combatant resorts to causing a diversion so he can scamper away like a little school girl in a kilt!

So what are you saying Overlord? Yoda won the match? If Yoda would of won the match Dooku would of been captured! Right? Do you not think so? The reason Yoda fought Dooku was to Capture him and end the clone wars. It is hard for me to believe that Yoda intended to fight Dooku and then make him scamper away like a little school girl in a kilt! Yoda either wanted to capture him or destroy him. Yoda was unable to fullfill his objective. Dooku was not captured. Dooku wasn't running when he beat up on the so called "choosen one". He fought three highly skilled Jedi knights and beat two of them then walked away form a battle with the greatest Jedi of them all. Ran away? Dooku's job was over. Start the Clone Wars. Dooku accomblished his mission and the Jedi failed their mission of captureing Dooku.
"If Dooku escapes, rally more starsytems to his cause he will" -Yoda

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Darth Marra 54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
[B]Yoda has no intention of killing dooku. And it certainly isn't a "draw" when one combatant resorts to causing a diversion so he can scamper away like a little school girl in a kilt!

So what are you saying Overlord? Yoda won the match? If Yoda would of won the match Dooku would of been captured! Right? Do you not think so? The reason Yoda fought Dooku was to Capture him and end the clone wars. It is hard for me to believe that Yoda intended to fight Dooku and then make him scamper away like a little school girl in a kilt! Yoda either wanted to capture him or destroy him. Yoda was unable to fullfill his objective. Dooku was not captured. Dooku wasn't running when he beat up on the so called "choosen one". He fought three highly skilled Jedi knights and beat two of them then walked away form a battle with the greatest Jedi of them all. Ran away? Dooku's job was over. Start the Clone Wars. Dooku accomblished his mission and the Jedi failed their mission of captureing Dooku.
"If Dooku escapes, rally more starsytems to his cause he will" -Yoda


oookkkkaaayyyyyy........

Listen don't take my Dooku slagging so personally......

What I am saying here is that Dooku ran from yoda. It's clear he knew he wasn't going to beat his former Master, so he ran. BUT, he needed a diversion, hence the big pillar thingie....

As for the number of jedi he was up against:

1 Jedi Master who is extremely powerful.

1 Jedi Knight who us very powerful and skileld

1 Padawan who acted rash and used no control whatsoever

Dooku was a Jedi Master, and also extremely powerful. It was never in doubt that he would best anakin. In fact, you kind of knew he was going to tear him a new one....

Things were a little tougher for Dooku against Obi, as he was more controlled and skilled than ani.....still...dooku was just to experienced.

Yoda was besting dooku at every turn....and dooku knew he would have lost.....so he ran. In the end it would be called a no contest bout.......rather than a draw. A draw indicates they were evenly matched, which is clearly not the case.

Jayspawn
09-22-2002, 11:32 PM
JarJar is right. Dooku is more experienced, and fights with his own style. Anakin held out pretty good against him. Obi-Wan on the other hand is doing pretty good against Dooku while the Count is trash-talking. Not only that, Dooku takes out a piece of Obi-Wans thigh and shoulder. Hell, I'd be pretty beat too!

JEDIpartner
09-26-2002, 04:53 PM
I think the generator manoeuvre was a pretty cheap shot on Dooku's part.

back to the topic... what other things COULD have altered the story arc?

The Overlord Returns
09-27-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I think the generator manoeuvre was a pretty cheap shot on Dooku's part.

back to the topic... what other things COULD have altered the story arc?

well......if anis mom had not been taken by the tuskens....