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Chewtobacco
08-29-2002, 05:59 PM
Master Jedi Yoda for years would see things before they happened. Up until TPM, the Jedi's vision was clear. It seemed Darth Sideous was able to get the upper hand on the Jedi at the time.

If you fast forward to ROTJ, Darth Vader (Anakin) gives the Emperor a toss down a deep whatever, supposedly to kill Darth Sideous. If Darth Sideous had such clear vision of the future, don't you think he could foresee Vader turning to good? He would certainly kill Vader on a one on one fight. Then he'd kill Luke on a one on one fight. It would be easy for the Emperor to train a new sith to do his bidding.

Where was Sideous' vision at this time?

MikeAndTheBots
08-29-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Chewtobacco
Master Jedi Yoda for years would see things before they happened. Up until TPM, the Jedi's vision was clear. It seemed Darth Sideous was able to get the upper hand on the Jedi at the time.

If you fast forward to ROTJ, Darth Vader (Anakin) gives the Emperor a toss down a deep whatever, supposedly to kill Darth Sideous. If Darth Sideous had such clear vision of the future, don't you think he could foresee Vader turning to good? He would certainly kill Vader on a one on one fight. Then he'd kill Luke on a one on one fight. It would be easy for the Emperor to train a new sith to do his bidding.

Where was Sideous' vision at this time?
He grew to be too over confident, besides, since Vader had turned back, possibly, it coulded Sidious's vision much as he clouded Yoda's.

Chewtobacco
08-29-2002, 09:51 PM
When Yodas ability to see the future was clouded it was not because of overconfidence. It was because the Dark Side was nearby and causing everything to be cloudy.

There were no master Jedi, only a very fledgling Jedi (Luke) that could have caused any type of clouding of Darth Sideous' vision. I really doubt Luke had that type of power.

All Sith are overconfident. That doesn't make their powers diminished. I'm going to need something more concrete than that.

MikeAndTheBots
08-30-2002, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Chewtobacco
When Yodas ability to see the future was clouded it was not because of overconfidence. It was because the Dark Side was nearby and causing everything to be cloudy.
Yes, but Palpatine was over confident in his plans and didn't take into account small things.


There were no master Jedi, only a very fledgling Jedi (Luke) that could have caused any type of clouding of Darth Sideous' vision. I really doubt Luke had that type of power.
I see your point but how come Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan couldn't sense that Anankin would turn into Vader? I think Yoda said that the futre isn't always certain, not quite sure what exactly he said.


All Sith are overconfident. That doesn't make their powers diminished. I'm going to need something more concrete than that.
Well exactly, Maul was over confident, didn't forsee getting bi-sected anf thrown into a bit, but yet again, the future isn't nesesarily set in stone.

Chewtobacco
08-30-2002, 02:49 AM
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan couldn't sense Anakin would turn into Vader because they were taught and believed that the Sith were extinct. Neither Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan ever hit the rank of Jedi Master either. I think a Jedi Master (one that sits around the temple and contemplates the force) is probably best suited to see someone or something's future. That's why they brought Ani in front of the Jedi Masters and Council. They didn't even want to train Ani. And my final reason that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon couldn't tell that Ani would become Darth Vader is because Qui-Gon was so fixated on the idea that Anakin was the "chosen one". In fact, he did bring balance to the force, but not in the way the Jedi Council would have been happy to choose.

This is a good topic for discussion because there are holes in the theory that Jedi can see the future. Perhaps it takes some serious meditation. I see Jedi and Sith as having different levels of power. Maul was an apprentice, and so was Obi-Wan in Ep1, so we can't expect them to have such powers yet.

Maul sure looked good with a dual blade light saber didn't he? That's about the only thing he mastered. Otherwise he's dumb as a box of rocks.

tagmac
08-30-2002, 06:10 PM
Actually, Qui-Gon did achieve that level. In TPM, Yoda even refers to him as "Master Qui-Gon."

mini-rock
08-31-2002, 03:55 PM
tagmac, your right. Qui-Gon was a Master.

Chewtobacco,

Even as an apprentice Obi-Wan could somewhat "sense" the future. If you remember when he and Qui-Gon first arrived on the Trade Federation ship, Obi-Wan said he had a bad feeling about this, Qui-Gon said he didn't sense anything then Obi-Wan said" It's not about the mission Master, it's something elsewhere...elusive."

Also the look on Obi-Wan's face right before Qui-Gon was killed by Maul said to me he knew what was going to happen.
My .02 of course. :)

Jedi Master Zolbewan
09-02-2002, 07:03 PM
I have the answer!
Read Dark Empire!

bigbarada
09-02-2002, 07:22 PM
Qui-Gonn was as powerful as any of the members of the Jedi Council (with the possible exception of Yoda) but wasn't on the Council due to his radical views. Hence Obi-Wan's quote, "You would be on the Council now if you would listen to them" (or something to that effect).

Yoda told Luke when asked if his friends would be killed on Bespin, "Difficult to see, always in motion the future."

So, no, I don't believe that Palpatine had a clear vision of Vader turning to the light side and killing him. If he did forsee it then he most likely would have dismissed it as one of many possibilities and not something he couldn't handle. Besides the Sith are always scheming to overthrow each other, thus master's must always be mindful of their apprentices getting too far above their station. Vader had been plotting to kill the Emperor and rule in his place for years, the Emperor knew this. Just as Vader knew that the Emperor planned to kill him and take on Luke as his new apprentice. Just business as usual for two Sith Lords. Nothing special.:)

All I have to say about the Dark Empire explanation is :rolleyes:

LTBasker
09-02-2002, 11:12 PM
Easy:

Darth Sidious isn't Palpatine. :happy:

Palpatine in ROTJ most likely if even saw Vader doing that, he felt it was just something Luke was concentrating on and shrugged it off or he didn't get that far into a meditation period or something. Or Vader could've been clouding Palpatine's mind on stuff like that because he didn't want him to sense everything about him and Luke and that's why he could've just assumed it was gonna be just another Jedi BBQ day that he hasn't enjoyed in YEARS. ;)

The Overlord Returns
09-09-2002, 11:16 AM
besides.......palpatine hints at a bit of worry, when he finds out that Vader has sensed luke he points out:

"Strange, that I have not"

"Tell me Lord Vader, are your thoughts clear on this matter?"

so, palps obvioiusly has a moment of doubt, or worry about Vaders ultimate loyalty, but most likely dismisses it as an emotional blip, and not something to worry about. Overconfidence is what he's all about in ROTJ though. He never thinks for a second that anything will go down in a way that has not been by his design. Yet it all does. I don't think any force user can see a crystal clear vision of the future, but sense feelings, or auras about good , or bad things that may happen.

chewie
09-11-2002, 09:52 PM
Sidious/Palpatine knew of the story of the "chosen one". Vader was indeed the one to bring balance to the force by killing Palpatine. It just didn't happen as happily as he would have liked to have thought.

Palpatine also knew that once Luke became a Jedi, that he (Palpatine) would die. Luke became a Jedi the instant that he defeated his father. Knowing the future, the only option Palpatine had left was to kill Luke before something happened.

He forgot about the "chosen one", who happened to be standing right beside him.

In the end all the visions of the future came true. Luke became a powerful Jedi and was present at Palpatine's death. And the chosen one was there to bring balance to the force by killing Palpatine and then dying. Thus there was one force user left in the universe and balance was brought back to the force.

The future was seen by all involved, but the exact timing and circumstances regarding the future was never made clear to anyone.

Dark Lord Kakorotto
09-29-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Qui-Gonn was as powerful as any of the members of the Jedi Council (with the possible exception of Yoda) but wasn't on the Council due to his radical views. Hence Obi-Wan's quote, "You would be on the Council now if you would listen to them" (or something to that effect).

Yoda told Luke when asked if his friends would be killed on Bespin, "Difficult to see, always in motion the future."

So, no, I don't believe that Palpatine had a clear vision of Vader turning to the light side and killing him. If he did forsee it then he most likely would have dismissed it as one of many possibilities and not something he couldn't handle. Besides the Sith are always scheming to overthrow each other, thus master's must always be mindful of their apprentices getting too far above their station. Vader had been plotting to kill the Emperor and rule in his place for years, the Emperor knew this. Just as Vader knew that the Emperor planned to kill him and take on Luke as his new apprentice. Just business as usual for two Sith Lords. Nothing special.:)

All I have to say about the Dark Empire explanation is :rolleyes:

bigbarada, i believe, has the most accurate interpretation of this scene. There are only two Sith Lords allowed because they kill each other if there are more. The Emperor was well aware of the fact that darth vader was plotting against him, but as Luke said, "your over-confidence is your weakness" and it was. Palpatine thought that Vader was no threat to him. While Palpatine was killing a Jedi his mind wasn't on the other Jedi that was right behind him:D