Star Wars: The only Epic Story of its Kind

[icatch9]

Star Wars is the greatest epic of our time. It transcends race, time, religion, and political affiliation. It is for everyone. Still other stories of our time are too. Recently Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter have come into our realm of being epic. Clearly LOTR has been around for nearly 50 years and pretty much started the whole fantasy craze. Still Star Wars IMO is totally different simply because it was a movie first. Sure, Star Wars the novel came out before the movie did, but it was written after the movie was written (if you understand my meaning). LOTR took 50 years to become a movie. Simply because it was so far ahead of it's time as a story and movies making just now caught up. Even Harry Potter took nearly 5 years to become a movie (I think). My point is that great books have turned into great movies (some not so great movies too), but Star Wars is the only great epic story that was solely intended to be a movie. The books are simply an after thought. I find this very interesting and something that some may not realize. Another feather in the cap of George Lucas, that’s for sure. .

I just finished reading AOTC the book and realized that some things are different. The story is basically the same, but parts of it delve more into the life of Shmi and her new family (the Lars). This clearly wasn't in the movie at all. Still, this novel is not considered "cannon" and is dismissed in the Star Wars Universe. I'm all for it. If it didn't happen in the movie then it's not really true. That's not the point hear though, the point is that when these epic books become movies they always change a lot. I've read Harry Potter and the Sources Stone 4 times and it's wonderful. I've scene the movie half a dozen times and it's wonderful too. It keeps closer to the book than some other book movies. Still many things are left out (important things too). I am on CH 5 of LOTR Fellowship of the Ring and it is nothing like the movie at all. I don't know where Peter Jackson came up with some of the things, but it's not really that close to the book. Granted some things have to be omitted, but the journey of Frodo and Sam to the Prancing Pony isn't even close (in fact the Prancing Pony hasn't even been mentioned yet). I expect many other things to be different too.

My point is that the true stories to most epic books that turn into movies can always be found in the books. Where as the true story to star wars cannot be found in the books, only in the movies. It's a very interesting situation. Star Wars is the anti-epic.

[JEDIpartner]

I can agree with you for the most part. I know that people will argue the point on stuff like "The Godfather" films... but I never liked them. I know a lot of people who just don't get into them because they think they are boring.

The Star Wars, Harry Potter and LOTR films seem to be a little more cross-generational than many other films. This is why they have/will have such a lasting appeal.

[icatch9]

Yes, The Godfather is a great story, but I don't consider it an epic tale. Maybe that's just me. Epic to me just dosen't say gangsters. It's myth and legend wrapped into a journy and growth of individuals. Sure, The Godfather has some of these, but I don't remember Marlon Brando useing mystical powers :D.

Plus, they don't apeal to a vast audience. Certainly they have thier fan base, but it's just not the same :).

[JediTricks]

I dunno, if you take the Greek Myths as a "story", then their whole universe is quite more epic than SW. Of our time, Star Wars is probably the most sweeping MODERN epic/myth, but it's not something that stands alone, it is built upon and utilizes some of the greatest and most basic pieces of mythos ever, which is why it's so identifiable. I think Star Wars creates a rich tapestry of much that has come before it in terms of our planet's storytelling and applies it to a fantasy/sci-fi universe in a way never really attempted before on that scale. Luckily for us, it's retelling and weaving great stories of old into something new, truly the magic of myth, and does it in a way that takes itself just seriously enough to make it palatable and good without becoming stuffy or self-indulgent.

[Mandalorian Candidat]

Definitely one of the big reasons for the success of the SW story is the escapism. The mythological makes the films familiar to those who are familiar with the ancient polytheistical cultures (Rome, Greece) but the fantasy appeals to the broader audience.

I'm interested in seeing how the LOTR trilogy fares by the time it winds up late next year. Certainly it's popular among the readers of Tolkein, but how about to the general populace?

[bigbarada]

The very beginning of Fellowship of the Ring and the very end of Return of the King had to be cut from the films. When you read the entire story you will see why. They are fine for a book, but simply complicate and muddle the storyline and, while that is fine for adding depth to a book, it is suicide for a movie. When you have finished all the books and seen all the films then you will understand why Peter Jackson had to do what he did.

If you mean by "the only epic story of it's kind," a space-opera that is most definitely NOT sci-fi but a little bit of adventure mixed with a little bit of mysticism add in a little bit of fantasy. Then you are correct. However, don't begrudge Star Wars one of it's chief influences: Lord of the Rings. I will say this, without the LOTR books there would most likely be no Star Wars, without the Star Wars films there would be no LOTR films.

Keeping in mind that the only reason that LOTR seems to be "old-hat" is because it has been copied and mimmicked so much in the last 50 years.

And the idea of creating an epic series of films based on LOTR didn't originate with Star Wars. Back in the 60s, Tolkien was in negotiations to have his books adapted into films. However, his story was simply unfilmable with the movie technology of the day. Remember the terrible cartoons based on the first half of LOTR? That premiered in 1977 a mere six months after ANH. Movie studios have been trying to realize Tokien's vision for 50 years, and it took the digital technology of today to make it happen. (Watch that old Ralph Bakshi cartoon and you will see that those filmmakers felt that the same Tom Bombadil and Barrow Wight scenes needed to be cut to streamline the film).

So, yes, SW is unique within it's own mini-genre but it is not the only epic of our time.

[icatch9]

I agree that those sceens needed to be cut. They really had no purpose in the grand sceem of things.

My statement of "only one of it's kind" basically revolves around the fact that it's the only grand epic story to be a movie and not a book first. Every other great epic adventure has always been realized in a novel and then some Hollywood big wig options it for a movie. Star Wars was realized solely as a film and the only reason why ANH was a book was to get sci-fi readers to go see the movie.

Thats what makes it one of a kind. Everyone knows that GL borrowed from all the myths and legends of our world. He'll admit that to any interviewer who asks. Still realizeing his vision on the big screen and not in print is something that was and is uncommen for these kinds of great epic stories.

Can anyone one come up with another great epic story that was a movie and not a book first?

I'm sorry, but the myths and stories of Greece and Rome are hardly "of our time" :D:D.

[JediTricks]

As cinema-first, I think Trek and 2001 both pulled this off before Star Wars (2001 the book was written alongside the film on purpose as I understand it).

If you combine the "cinema first" and "modern epic" stuff together, then I suppose it is unique in that description (though Lucas was never shy about showing where he got all these ideas from, at one point SW was so similar to Kurosawa's film "The Hidden Fortress" that Lucas and producer Gary Kurtz tried to buy the rights to the film so they wouldn't get sued for plagerism). I'm not sure I separate the various forms of mythological media though, they're all storytelling methods in one way or another. (Which makes SW better because it caught on so fast and big for ANY kind of mythos)

[bigbarada]

Star Wars was the proverbial 800-pound gorilla in the late-70s/early 80s. It burst onto the scene and the world was almost instantly changed.

The LOTR books were released in 1954 (The Hobbit in 1937), but those didn't really make an impact until the counterculture movement of the 60s. However, that doesn't lessen the impact that story made.

Star Trek is another epic story that started as a TV-series. It's influences are incredible. Just the fact that the first Space Shuttle was named after the Starship Enterprise is a testament to how much Star Trek has affected our society. Not bad for a low-rated, critically lambasted TV show that only lasted two and a half seasons.

[stillakid]

Until today, I had yet to see anyone credit LOTR with influencing Star Wars. But who knows, maybe I just missed that particular article. :)

The stuff I have read and heard from others falls more in line with this: (from http://www.decentfilms.com/reviews/starwars4.html)


excerpts from the article. see URL above for complete story.
...Lucas has noted in interviews that Star Wars was influenced by a boyhood favorite of his: the sci-fi serial Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe, which like Star Wars features an epic outer-space adventure divided into episodes. Lucas’s film is also influenced by the swashbuckling films of Errol Flynn.

Yet Star Wars goes beyond Flash Gordon or its peers. Partly, of course, this is simply due to advances in technology and cinematography — many of which were pioneered in this very film. Star Wars leaps off the screen and pulls the viewer into the action in a way that Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers didn’t and couldn’t.

But Star Wars also tells a story that seems more momentous, more significant. Like earlier pulp films, Star Wars draws on mythic and fairy-tale archetypes: a young orphan-hero; a mysterious wizard-mentor; a fearsome dark lord; a magical sword; a princess held prisoner; a gallant rescue mission. Yet on a deeper level, Star Wars is more convincing as a myth or fairy tale in its own right.

This is due in part to Lucas’s assimilation of the work of mythology scholar Joseph Campbell, who, in his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces, distilled a common pattern underlying the stories told in every culture about the “hero” archetype. This pattern, which Campbell referred to as “the hero’s journey,” was consciously applied by Lucas to his hero, Luke Skywalker — a fact that initially lead some less-mythologically-hip commentators to disparage what they thought were excessive similarities between Star Wars and other films with mythic or fairy-tale influences, such as The Wizard of Oz and the journey of its heroine, Dorothy.

Lucas also has pointed to the influence of films set in medieval Japan — especially the Akira Kurosawa classic The Hidden Fortress, to which the first Star Wars movie bears many similarities. The influence of such films is significant enough that the name “Jedi” itself is taken from the Japanese designation for a national medieval epic, known in Japanese as Jidai Geki: “period drama.”

Lucas’s Jedi knights are essentially mystic martial-arts heroes with an outer-space rather than medieval setting: laser swords instead of steel swords. The tradition of larger-than-life warriors in Eastern martial-arts fiction was recently spotlighted in America by Ang Lee’s 2000 blockbuster Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, which featured high-flying heroes drawn from traditional Chinese Wuxia fiction who seemed to many U.S. viewers reminiscent of Jedi knights.

Some commentators, especially in later years, noticed resonances between the world of Star Wars and the real-word era in which it was released that may have given it added impact for contemporary audiences. It was the Cold War, and there would be natural resonances for Star Wars’s themes of a totalitarian government (“the Empire” in place of the Soviet Union), of complete planetary destruction (“the Death Star” in place of nuclear war), and brave, underdog freedom fighters (“the Rebellion” in place of the American will to achieve freedom, no matter the cost).

The film also involved a return to family values and feel-good filmmaking, a significant departure from the sturm und drong of culture in the 1960s and early 1970s, which produced an overabundance of films trying to be gritty, angst-ridden, heady, and “relevant.”

All these factors may have played a subconscious role in providing the film’s instant popularity, but they alone wouldn’t be enough to explain why the film took off as it did. So why was Star Wars such a hit at the time? And why is it a classic today?

Because there’s so much cool stuff in it!

Also see this site for more elaboration on his influences:
http://www.echostation.com/features/japanese.htm


If you've read the actual first drafts of the script for Star Wars that made the rounds, you'll see instantly why just about everybody rejected it. Very akin to TPM, with a nearly incomprehensible plotline and atrocious dialogue. Only a few people know for certain, but it seems clear that the only reason the thing got made is because Coppola, being an established player in the industry, believed so much in young Lucas. Huyck and Katz were called in to save the project, thank god, and really don't get due credit (but that's normal for writers anyway). Despite his lack of writing ability, he has/had a fantastic ability to draw on a variety of influences, from Japanese culture to Frank Herbert's DUNE, and yes, maybe even Tolkien and distill it all into a story that is more accessible to the general audience than anyone of those other things by itself.

[bigbarada]

It was an Entertainment Weekly article about the LOTR film that listed many things influenced by Tolkien's work, Star Wars was on the list, along with the video game Myst, the rock group Yes' music, Led Zeppelin song lyrics, and even Beatles movies. It was the Dec. 14th, 2001 issue of EW, if you're interested in checking it out.

[icatch9]

Also I stated in this thread that many things enfluenced Star Wars. GL even agreed when asked in LOTR influenced his work. He read it befor he wrote SW along with many other things on myth and the likes. GL and his influences aren't a big secret, there a whole book about it called "The Hero with Many Faces" (I think), it doesnt' really center around Star Wars, but it shows how Luke and other characters in SW are just the same as always, but the situations and faces change.

The reason Star Wars got made has been documented. There are a couple of main reasons. First off, Fox had great sucess with Planet of the Apes. So, there where hopeing for a similar box office return. Second 2001 was in theaters and it wasn't makeing a huge profit, but was getting some aclaim. Third and perhaps most important was the fact that GL took no profits from the movie, just the licensing rights. Thus, even is Star Wars ANH made 1 billion dollars in '77 GL wouldn't of sceen a dime of it. But as history has told Star Wars did qutie well in the theaters, but is over shadowed by the amount of merchandise sold. GL commands a plastic universe, not one on film :). The toys and wookie mugs made GL his money.

I agree with you Big B, Star Trek is influenctial. I just don't see it as the same sort of story. Not becasue ST and SW are at odds with eachother. It's just ST doesn't have a concreat beggining and end. I mean Captain Kirk is still out there saveing the universe, same with Sisco and Picard. They never had an end to their stories. Sure, Kirk dies and DS9 shuts down, but that's not the same ending as a bonfire funeral that Vader got. Do I make sence. Star Trek is a story that theoretically never has an end (it's continueing mission as long as rateings are good). I think that is the difference. Clearly Star Wars in undoubtably popular, but more than likely there will never be Episode 7-9. Where as Star Trek movies will be made until the Earth stands still :D.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by bigbarada
It was an Entertainment Weekly article about the LOTR film that listed many things influenced by Tolkien's work, Star Wars was on the list, along with the video game Myst, the rock group Yes' music, Led Zeppelin song lyrics, and even Beatles movies. It was the Dec. 14th, 2001 issue of EW, if you're interested in checking it out.

I did miss it! But who wrote it? Did GL himself claim that he was influenced by LOTR? Sounds more like something a LOTR-um-fanatic ;) might say. It's easy to see the "fantasy" (dungeons, dragons, elves, etc.) elements in Myst, Zeppelin, etc (YES? arena rock definitely, but I'd say something like Iron Maiden before listing YES...but what the heck do I know). But aside from the most basic level of good vs. evil and some kind of "quest," I haven't seen a huge influence of LOTR in SW. Perhaps a list of those elements and how they manifested themselves directly into the SW saga would help me understand better. :)

It's been awhile since I read Joseph Campbell's work, A Hero With a Thousand Faces, but I'll thumb through it again today to look for GL quotes saying that he was influenced by LOTR. :)

[icatch9]

I don't think it's a direct influence. It's not like he ever said. Yes, Han Solo is based on Strider. It's more of the myth and legend aspect of LOTR. Lucas uses myth a lot in his story and so did Tolkien. I think that GL learned more about myth from LOTR and such, more than he took character traits or ideas from it. Back in the early 70's (when GL invisioned and wrote SW) there wasn't a lot to pull from. So, LOTR was "King" of that genra so it was a must read for a young writer looking to write a moder day myth.

Since Tolkien was first for the most part (some would say the great Greek stories where first, wich they were but what's a few thosand years between friends:)). So, he influenced every story that deals with myth and legend since his stories.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by icatch9
I don't think it's a direct influence. It's not like he ever said. Yes, Han Solo is based on Strider. It's more of the myth and legend aspect of LOTR. Lucas uses myth a lot in his story and so did Tolkien. I think that GL learned more about myth from LOTR and such, more than he took character traits or ideas from it. Back in the early 70's (when GL invisioned and wrote SW) there wasn't a lot to pull from. So, LOTR was "King" of that genra so it was a must read for a young writer looking to write a moder day myth.

Since Tolkien was first for the most part (some would say the great Greek stories where first, wich they were but what's a few thosand years between friends:)). So, he influenced every story that deals with myth and legend since his stories.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. :)

However, I've consciously chosen to take the con position :evil: on this, for two reasons.

The first is that I'm a self-proclaimed non-fan :eek: (at least of the movie thus far) of LOTR, and while I can appreciate the elements within it that make it so popular, I'm not inclined to buy outright that everything created since it's inception by Tolkien was influenced by what he did. He further developed territory that had been covered previously and to suggest that without his trilogy, none of the subsequent works of science fiction or fantasy would exist seems a bit presumptious.:rolleyes:

The second is a derivative of that in somuch as that up until the Entertainment Weekly article (which I haven't read yet), I have no recollection of anyone every attributing LOTR as being one of the influences on the Star Wars saga. :confused: Certainly not the level that is being offered in this thread anyhow. As mentioned previously, comic books, 50's B movies, and serial television have always been credited as being the prime influences over George Lucas :cool: . While indeed he might have read the epic at some point in his past, I don't recall any articles or interviews since the '70's in which he ever mentions it personally. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong. :)

[bigbarada]

Well, to answer your questions about the LOTR article in EW, it was written by Jeff Gordinier. And the lead singer for Yes, John Anderson is actually quoted in the article as saying, "My whole life has been built on the idea that I am part of the elven culture. There's a lot of things going on in the beautiful mountainside that we, as humans, don't relate to, Tolkien was like the door opener for me."

I think it may be similar for GL, LOTR was simply a door-opener for a certain kind of story that simply wasn't being told anymore. Where did the idea for having thousands of years of history referenced in ANH? Certainly not from the paper-thin plots of the 50s sci-fi serials.

In any case, GL himself is a huge fan of LOTR and actually arranged for "the hobbits" (Wood, Astin, Boyd, Monaghan) to meet with him, since LOTR and Ep2 were being filmed in New Zealand around the same time. Sean Astin stated that GL sat them down and started trying to pry information out of them about the films like any fanboy. Astin stated that it was kind of fun to get to tell George Lucas, "Well, you'll just have to wait and see.":D

In any case, your non-fan status of LOTR is nothing new, stillakid. Since from the very beginning when the book was released in the 50s, people had a sort of 'love it or hate it' attitude towards Tolkien's work.

In fact, many people (JT for instance) actually prefer the movies to the books. In another article I read, the author stated that the only bad thing about the movie is that it was so good that people watching it might be tempted to try and read through the books, which he highly discouraged. The books would "draw you in only to watch you die" as the author put it.:)

Anyways, if I don't hold the prequels to a certain movie standard because it is one story told in three parts, I hold LOTR to that standard even less. All three films are already made (at least as far as pricipal photography goes) New Line committed $450 million to these movies and all three were adapted before the first frame of film was shot. Thus, even more so that the SW Prequels, LOTR is one film. In fact, the circumstances behind the film are totally unique in movie history. No one has ever filmed three films at once before even releasing the first one. No one has ever put the level of detail and craftsmanship into prop design (every sword, plate of armor and helmet was individually crafted using the ancient techniques of Medieval European armoursmiths - there are many in Europe who still produce swords and armour to this day using the ancient methods not influenced by modern conveniences.). Thus, as far as movie history goes, LOTR deserves a page of honor right next to Star Wars and Star Trek.

icatch9, I would refer to Star Trek as an 'episodic epic' meaning that it is meant to go on, without end. However, I don't believe that makes it any less an epic.

If you wanted to say, "the greatest epic that started out as a TV show" then Star Trek would be it. It all just depends on how you set the criteria for your statement. Star Wars really has no competition in the sci-fi/fantasy/adventure genre, because it created that genre. Just like LOTR created the "high fantasy" genre that we see in D&D and movies like Legend. Sure those elements existed before Tolkien, but it was him who dug these hundreds of conflicting stories out of obscurity and molded a cohesive, epic tale out of it all.

[2-1B]

As a kid I was exposed often to The Godfather films as my dad is a huge fan of them. I didn't like them, I found them boring. As I moved on to high school age, I began to realize how great they are (well, GF 1 and 2, for sure :D ) and now I definitely think they are better than Star Wars. :)

The idea of "epic" is an interesting one. I'd have to think more about that...

[JediTricks]

But what message exactly does the Godfather saga give us which we can apply to our lives and to society's greater ethos?

[Droid]

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

[2-1B]

But what message exactly does the Godfather saga give us which we can apply to our lives and to society's greater ethos?

Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.
lol

[JimJamBonds]

But what message exactly does the Godfather saga give us which we can apply to our lives and to society's greater ethos?

A certain ex leader of Iraq is a huge fan of the Godfather (no joke!).

[JediTricks]

Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.
lol
Not really, Michael Corleone gets shafted either way.

[2-1B]

Exactly, look at him at the end of GF2. Stone cold and all alone. Left to rule the world with nobody to share it with.

[JediTricks]

That's not a working lesson then. :p "The only thing that matters is who your father is" ... wait, that works for Star Wars as well now, damn Prequels. :D

[2-1B]

You can thank ROTJ for that one, too. :crazed:

No really though, the thing with the GF is that Mike rose to power and used his ambition for personal gain...but in the end he sacrificed his family (Fredo, for example :D ) and ended up with nothing of meaning. What good is success (if you can consider a life of racketeering a success :p ) if you have to step on everyone to get it ? :)

[JediTricks]

ROTJ is an honorary prequel. :p But before the prequels, Vader was just a guy who turned to evil and became a badguy, Luke was just a regular fellow who happened to be the son of a badguy; the prequels though make the case that Vader is the product of the Force's will, that he and his kin are special beyond special, and thus Luke goes from being an everyman with a wacky dad to the son of Midi-man, The Son of Suns!

That "message" seems similar to the prequel one about Anakin, and I think both cases are poorly-sold. The difference between the 2 is that Michael Corleone actively didn't want to get into the family business of evil until the fates conspired to bring him in and quickly push him to the top of the evil empire - the same could be said for Anakin I suppose except I feel the prequels sold the notion he was cruising for that bruising even beforehand, and unlike Michael Corleone, Anakin had a mentor who was pushing him into the business.