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Darth Lizard King
09-10-2002, 06:04 PM
We all know that Obi-Wan stumbled onto the clones and the clone factory. But when Taun We greets him she says: "We've been expecting you." Now, obviously she did not mean Obi-Wan, so who did Obi-Wan beat to the punch, seeing as the clones just happened to be ready. Certainly Sidious's plans were not so exact that he knew Obi would just stumble onto the clones, so who was meant to pick them up first? Yoda? I'm still not really clear on this...

Pendo
09-10-2002, 06:08 PM
When she says "We have been expecting you" she does not mean anyone inparticular, but just any old Jedi. Sifo-Dyas probably said that a Jedi would come to inspect how the creation of the clones was coming along. Because Obi-Wan arrived they persumed that he had come to inspect them. I don't think they were expecting anyone to pick them up just yet, but it could have been Count Dooku who would pick them up.

PENDO!

Jedi Clint
09-10-2002, 06:13 PM
After Dooku's forces attacked the Republic, they would have no choice but to locate an army quickly, or be destroyed. He probably would have been granted emergency powers at that time, and could have saved the day with the army of clones. I don't know how he would have manipulated the Jedi to find the clones this way. Perhaps he could have simply ordered a Jedi (maybe even Anakin) to get them from Kamino. There is also the possibility that it wouldn't matter whether the army was commissioned on time. If Dooku's forces won, then Palpatine still wins. One way or the other, he would end up with his army of clones and control of the galaxy.

Darth Lizard King
09-10-2002, 06:16 PM
Good replys. My problem is that why would Sidious expect Jedi to inspect the clones if they were never supposed to know about them in the first place, since they were done in secret, and Obi-Wan stumbled onto them by pure dumb luck.

Pendo
09-10-2002, 06:20 PM
Sidious/Palpatine is very good at sensing/predicting the future, you could say it's his speciality. He probably seen the Jedi finding it. He may also have told Jango to use the Kamino Saber Dart to lure them there, Bounty Hunter's aren't stupid enough to leave big clues like that lying around.

PENDO!

Darth Marra 54
09-10-2002, 06:32 PM
Ahh who knows, Maybe Jango was unaware of the fact that Obi Wan knew Dexter Jetster who knew that the saber dart was from Kamino. I bet that Dooku erased the info about the saber dart from the archives just like he did on the info of the planet Kamino itself. Perhaps Dooku told Jango that the Jedi had no knoweldge of Kamino so Jango could use any resources from Kamino he wanted. Good thing for Dexter!

Pendo
09-10-2002, 06:36 PM
In Episode III we might find out that Dexter was working for Sidious/Dooku!!! That would be a shock!!!

PENDO!

LTBasker
09-10-2002, 07:04 PM
Or actually, Kamino was deleted from the archives, and Obi-Wan was told to investigate due to finding out the saber dart was from Kamino. Most likely they knew that the Jedi would have sources and if they couldn't get information from the archives that they would send someone to investigate.

mini-rock
09-10-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
In Episode III we might find out that Dexter was working for Sidious/Dooku!!! That would be a shock!!!

PENDO!

We may, but it was my impression that Dex and Obi-Wan had been friends for a while. I guess that doesn't really mean crap, but I got the feeling they had a deep friendship. My .02

About Obi-Wan finding the clones who knows?

darthvyn
09-12-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Pendo
Sidious/Palpatine is very good at sensing/predicting the future, you could say it's his speciality. He probably seen the Jedi finding it. He may also have told Jango to use the Kamino Saber Dart to lure them there, Bounty Hunter's aren't stupid enough to leave big clues like that lying around.

PENDO!

he's also good at CREATING the future - who's the best at predicting the future? the one who is creating it... making events come to pass so that his scheme unfolds the way he wants it to. at the end of AOTC, sidious says everything is going according to plan. that means he PLANNED for the jedi to find, and use, the clones. therefore, he planned every event that would lead to obi-wan's finding kamino.

he also planned the revolution - the trade federation was betrayed by sidious, who let them know that he had great power in the republic... so, they hate him and the republic, so the fake revolution under dooku has a pretty powerful ally.

i even would go so far as to say he planned anakin's tusken massacre. i kinda think palpatine used the force to control the tuskens to kill shmi. i mean, what are the odds that SHE would be the victim of their rage?

mini-rock
09-12-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


he's also good at CREATING the future - who's the best at predicting the future? the one who is creating it... making events come to pass so that his scheme unfolds the way he wants it to. at the end of AOTC, sidious says everything is going according to plan. that means he PLANNED for the jedi to find, and use, the clones. therefore, he planned every event that would lead to obi-wan's finding kamino.

he also planned the revolution - the trade federation was betrayed by sidious, who let them know that he had great power in the republic... so, they hate him and the republic, so the fake revolution under dooku has a pretty powerful ally.

i even would go so far as to say he planned anakin's tusken massacre. i kinda think palpatine used the force to control the tuskens to kill shmi. i mean, what are the odds that SHE would be the victim of their rage?

I agree with everything except the Tusken incident. While I think it's possible, it's still a bit of a stretch IMO. You have to admire Palpatine, and how easy it is for him to manipulate everyone. I love the look on his face right before Queen Amidala calls for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vallorum in TPM. :)

dr_evazan22
09-12-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
After Dooku's forces attacked the Republic, they would have no choice but to locate an army quickly, or be destroyed.

OK. Here's another question.

If the Republic hasn't had an army in hundreds, if not thousands, of years, then why do the Seperatists need an army to secede? There were whole sections of the galaxy that weren't under Republic control (Tatooine, Hutt space, probably others).

The Jedi were guardians of peace and justice. Why couldn't the Seperatists worlds just vote to leave the Republic peacefully?

Jedi Clint
09-12-2002, 07:38 PM
Greed and lust for power. They were trying to attain the largest army in the galaxy, so that no one would or could oppose them.

darthvyn
09-14-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by dr_evazan22


OK. Here's another question.

If the Republic hasn't had an army in hundreds, if not thousands, of years, then why do the Seperatists need an army to secede? There were whole sections of the galaxy that weren't under Republic control (Tatooine, Hutt space, probably others).

The Jedi were guardians of peace and justice. Why couldn't the Seperatists worlds just vote to leave the Republic peacefully?

also, it's all part of palpatine's plan... they DON'T need an army. they build one (under the orders of dooku, palpatine's minion...) because palpatine needs an excuse to create HIS army. palpatine's playing both sides off on each other, so he can create his army, and therefore take over the galaxy.

and as for the tusken thing... yeah, i know it's far-fetched... i just thought i'd throw it out there. i kinda like the idea. see, in the book, (i know, i know, oooooh, the book, page 276...) they make a point of talking about how the tuskens were acting strangely, moving out from their usual territories. i felt that the explanation for their strange behavior was because of outside influences... i don't know. like i said, i know it's far-fetched...

mini-rock
09-14-2002, 08:27 PM
darthvyn, thats right! I forgot that the book said that about the Tuskens. Of course I'm sure we could come up with a hundred theories as to why they were acting strangely.:)

Patient Zero
11-15-2002, 10:32 AM
I couldn't really find the correct thread to put this in and since it is about troops and transport I thought that I would put it here as we don't need any more threads cluttering up the boards.

I just noticed, while watching AOTC last night, that in the very last scene of clone troopers, the ships in the background look very much like prototypes of miniture star destroyers. Has there been any confirmation of this?

plasticfetish
11-15-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
... the ships in the background look very much like prototypes of miniture star destroyers. Has there been any confirmation of this?

Yeah ... I think on the extras disk ... the bit about when they were deciding on a design for the Jedi Star Fighter. They talk about introducing the wedge shape design and how later it would evolve into star destroyers, etc.

That whole part and seeing how much Lucas referenced WW2 footage and industrial design was really interesting.

Patient Zero
11-15-2002, 12:54 PM
Thanks! I hadn't watched all the extra stuff yet.

stillakid
11-15-2002, 03:24 PM
Palpatine's influence only goes as far as recruiting traitors and influencing others (the Senate, Anakin). He doesn't "reach out with the Force" to control events with telekinesis. :rolleyes:

Here's the timeline as we either know it or can extrapolated from known "screen" events:

Pre TPM: Palpatine is "seduced" to the Dark Side by a Sith Lord or "restarts" the Sith tradition by himself.

(Apparently, according to EU, Palpatine grows a little Sith baby from birth, Darth Maul, whose purpose is to be his lackey)

Palpatine gets himself elected to the Senate as representative of Naboo, a peaceful out of the way place where he won't draw attention to himself.

He concocts a plan to take over the known galaxy which consists of eroding it from the inside. In order to achieve this, he must remove the primary pillars of power, which include The Senate, The Trade Federation, The Banking Guild, The Techno Union, The Jedi, and any other large organizations that we haven't heard about directly.

Step 1: Get the Trade Federation to cause trouble. Not just anywhere, but on his "home" world. What this accomplishes is a situation where he knows that the Senate will be ineffective and he can take over as Chancellor. The outcome would be the same whether Amidala signed the treaty or not. Either way, Naboo was wronged, the Senate failed to act, and Palpatine could cause himself to be put in charge. In the end, the Trade Federation would be chastised, if not worse, and they would blame it on the Sidious. An unexpected outcome of this step was the death of Maul.

Step 2: Seduce Dooku to take Maul's place. It all works out in the end, as this stage of the grand plan involves more political maneuvering than Darth Maul-like agility. As soon as possible (post TPM), Palpatine instructs Dooku to place an order for a Clone Army with the Kamino's. A random butt-kicker is chosen as the template and is paid handsomely for it.

Step 3: Dooku "just happens" to run into Nute Gunray and sides with his plight. Using half-truths and deception, Dooku convinces Gunray that the Senate is under the control of the Sith. The only way to preserve the Republic (and in turn, the Trade Federation's position of power), is to rebel against it and secede before it is too late.

Step 4: While all this is happening, Palpatine can't ignore young Skywalker's growing abilities. Knowing that the boy could foil his nefarious plan down the road, he begins the subtle process of seduction by planting seeds of dissatisfaction (with the Jedi and the Republic) in him.

Step 5: Palpatine's plan to use the Clone Army depends on it being legal. Padme's efforts to make it illegal are in his way. Through Dooku, he convinces Nute Gunray to put out the contract on her life if for no other reason than petty revenge for the Naboo debacle. With those attempts being fruitless, Palpatine reasons that he can kill (not literally) two birds with one stone by sending Padme away (under the guise of protection) with Skywalker (who is becoming too powerful for his own good). While she is away, the bill can be defeated in the Senate and he can cause himself to be granted special powers. Now, with the blessing of the Senate, the doors are wide open for him to become Emperor.

Step 6: The only thing in his way are the Trade, Banking, and Techno entities as well as the Jedi. The Senate already knows that systems are trying to secede, but with Obi-Wan's unwitting help in gathering evidence, Palpatine now has the ammunition he needs to launch an outright attack on those entities mentioned above and destroy them.

Step 7: The next step is the question posed by the Thread topic. While it's unclear based on the films, just how Palpatine was going to "find" this army, whatever he had in mind became unnecessary. The attempts on Padme's life prompted an investigation which unexpectedly uncovered the existence of this army. Also, unexpectedly, the two people that Palpatine tries to get out of the way, show up again right in the middle of it all. It is at this time (in AOTC) that Palpatine's plans are not going as he has engineered. The whole thing might just blow up in his face, except that it is Yoda who unwittingly keeps the whole thing going strong. Yoda knows that he needs more firepower to rescue the Jedi on Geonosis, so it is his actions that introduce the Clone Army into the Republic, saving Palpatine from having to concoct an excuse for why it exists in the first place.

Step 8: The Trade Federation, Banking, and Techno are all but doomed. This leaves only the Jedi and the Senate in Palpatine's way. While the Jedi have no evidence to tie it directly to Palpatine, there are still questions to be answered as to the origin of the Clone Army (in that it exists just at the moment that Palpatine is asking for one) and in regards to Dooku's confession to Obi Wan about the Sith taking over the Senate. With war looming, nobody is interested in hearing that Palpatine might not have their best interests in mind. Those other entities have threatened a coup, and now comes the Jedi with accusations of their own.

Step 9: An unexpected turn of events for Palpatine. Dooku, drunk and cocky with power, begins to think he should be in charge. This, after all, is the Sith way. Palpatine sees this and recruits Anakin to hunt Dooku down and destroy him. Out of respect for Palpatine, Anakin does it and joins the Dark Side without even realizing it.

Step 10: The Jedi have accused Palpatine of being a Sith Lord. With the other entities wiped out, Palpatine is free to turn the Clone Army on the Jedi and begin wiping them clean from power with the Senate's approval. Through more lies and deceit, Palpatine fully turns Anakin from the Jedi, Obi Wan, and Padme.

Step 11: With the Trade Federation, Banking, Techno Union, and Jedi all gone, the last remaining vestige of the Old Republic is the Senate. As Tarkin utters in ANH, Palpatine (now the Emperor) dissolves the council, thus ensuring his place at the top with the full military power of the Empire behind him.

And he is able to manage all of this without once activating his Midichlorians and alerting the Jedi to his presence.

Well, that's just my opinion anyway. :)

Arrogant Arse
11-15-2002, 03:57 PM
I like your theory stillakid. My wife asked me once about Palpatine and how he got elected, etc., and I tried to explain something to her that was similar to what you said, although not as good. It basically confused her. I'm gonna show her this!

Mandalorian Candidat
11-15-2002, 04:28 PM
Man, stillakid, you should teach military tactics at West Point.

Well done!








Of course this means that the Men in Black from Lucasfilm will hunt you down now that you've revealed the plot for EP3. :)

stillakid
11-15-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
Man, stillakid, you should teach military tactics at West Point.

Well done!

Of course this means that the Men in Black from Lucasfilm will hunt you down now that you've revealed the plot for EP3. :)

Thank you. I appreciate that. But I didn't write it. It's George's story. I just look at what's on screen (and more importantly, what's in-between the lines). I'm really not as dumb as I look, although some guys here wouldn't agree...:rolleyes:

But of course, it's all just my opinion anyway.:)