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Darth Lizard King
09-10-2002, 05:14 PM
Who can name scenes and lines from the OT that may "foreshadow" the events of Episode III? Such as Luke saying he has been on Dagobah before? What do these things mean?

Jedi Clint
09-10-2002, 11:09 PM
Isn't it a bit extreme to say that because Luke says that Dagobah is "like something out of dream". That he said, "I've been on Dagobay before"? ;) He may have been there for awhile, but that is far from certain.

"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

What does it mean? My guess....Palpatine won't know about the twins.

Darkross
09-11-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
"The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

What does it mean? My guess....Palpatine won't know about the twins.

Nope...I always interpreted Obi-Wans words as to mean that if Vader had any offspring (1 or more...???) they (Vader and his offspring) would be a threat to the Emperor...thus Vader and his offspring could and would over-throw the Emperor....which ultimately happened. This happened two-fold...Leia did her part on the Alliance end of things...while Luke and Vader did their parts on the Jedi end of things.

darthvyn
09-11-2002, 12:04 PM
they totally made it seem like anakin was going to become darth vader... i mean, they played the imperial march after he killed all the tuskens, and his last name is skywalker... i think i might be right...:crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

seriously, though, i do feel that there will be something about the dagobah thing. and no one's saying it's definite, this is speculation after all. but it seems to me that was quite an intentional line...

and darkross, that's an interesting interpretation of that line, one that i don't think i've thought of before...

i agree that palpatine won't know about the kids... i also don't think vader knows... at least not about leia - "... SISTER... so, you have a twin sister... obi-wan was wise to hide her from me. now his failure is complete. if you will not be turned, perhaps SHE will..." and then luke holds his lightsaber in the most convoluted stance ever! and yells "NEVERRRRRR!!!" and goes to town...
:D

i think that possibly we will see a showdown between yoda and the emperor - "do not underestimate the powers of the emperor..." sounds like he knows firsthand...

once again, all speculation, but i think it makes sense... but that's just me...:crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

Jedi Clint
09-11-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Darkross


Nope...I always interpreted Obi-Wans words as to mean that if Vader had any offspring (1 or more...???) they (Vader and his offspring) would be a threat to the Emperor...thus Vader and his offspring could and would over-throw the Emperor....which ultimately happened. This happened two-fold...Leia did her part on the Alliance end of things...while Luke and Vader did their parts on the Jedi end of things.

"Nope"? Ok, so you feel his statement referred to the offspring and Vader. The catalyst in the equation is still the "offspring". Without it/them the "=threat" does not exist. So I do not disagree with the basic premise of your assessment. The rest of your statement seems to be a re-telling of the events in ROTJ. I have seen that movie ;), and my theory in no way conflicts with those events. So where does this "Nope" come in?

Darth Vellner
09-11-2002, 12:25 PM
Near the begining of ANH C3-P0 says "No more adventures"

HMMMMMM......
HEY 3-P0, The movie just started! What "Adventures" are you talking about????

So I ask....memory wipe or no memory wipe??

The Overlord Returns
09-11-2002, 12:27 PM
The Emperor most likely discovers the skywalker childrens existence during the time between ep 3 and 4, or, more plausibly, shortly before the events of esb, which is the first film that the emperor and vader acknowledge the "son of skywalker".

If the emperor knew at the birth...surely he would have destroyed them, no matter what it takes.

Pendo
09-11-2002, 12:52 PM
I had a theory somewhere that Sidious order's Dooku to kill the children, and he kidknaps them and takes them to Dagobah. Dooku is killed and his evil presence forms the Cave of Evil, and Luke and Leia are seperated from there. This would also agree with Luke's being there before.

PENDO!

YodaBoba
09-24-2002, 08:19 AM
It's hard to say. Lucas could go in a whole new direction. We just have to wait and see

Wookiee
10-01-2002, 11:01 AM
I remember hearing a while back, (prior to Episode I) that when Lucas was envisioning the Prequels, he said the whole father-son relationship would still be a secret. I thought I remember him saying that after all 6 movies were complete, if someone hadn't seen any of them and watched them 1 2 3 4 5 6 that Vader being Luke's father would still be a suprise in ESB.
Doesn't seem like that's going to be the case does it? Hmm I wonder...

Pendo
10-01-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Wookiee
I remember hearing a while back, (prior to Episode I) that when Lucas was envisioning the Prequels, he said the whole father-son relationship would still be a secret. I thought I remember him saying that after all 6 movies were complete, if someone hadn't seen any of them and watched them 1 2 3 4 5 6 that Vader being Luke's father would still be a suprise in ESB.
Doesn't seem like that's going to be the case does it? Hmm I wonder...

I hope it IS kept a secret that Anakin is his father. I'd get down on my knees and beg him to keep it a secret! I'd pay him if he'd keep it a secret. That is all I ask of him for this movie - KEEP IT A SECRET!!!

If he is as good a writer as he was when he made the OT he would think of a way to do it. I can think of ways it can be done!

PLEASE GEORGE, KEEP IT A SECRET :(

:)

PENDO!

Wookiee
10-01-2002, 01:37 PM
the problem lies with Episode III. If we see Padme give birth, then we know Anakin has a kid (or kids) and if see Anakin become Vader, then we know Vader has offspring. They might have to fake the deaths of the twins, (even showing twins gives away a lot) because if the audience knows that Vader has a son or daughter, it leaves the question of what becomes of him and her as the story line progresses into the OT.

darthvyn
10-01-2002, 02:26 PM
we' ve really been through the "keeping the secrets" stuff a lot, but here goes:

it won't be a surprise in ESB when vader tells luke he's his father, because the surprise will be ruined when luke tells leia his last name in the detention block. there is no way we won't see at least ONE of the twins in ep. III. it will lead to bad story telling, i.e. how did luke come to be, how did ben end up on tatooine etc...

and in the grand scheme of things...

the prequels are about the downfall of the republic and jedi in general, and one man - anakin, in particular. if we don't see him hit rock bottom and become vader, i think the meaning of the prequels will be lost.

it's true that showing twins gives away a lot. that's why i think the only secret that can really be kept without detriment to the story is the secret of leia - if we see only one child born, and hints to a second or something - there was an example of how this could work - obi-wan is approaching the birthing chambers, and yoda and bail antilles leave exit as he gets there, with a bunch of guards or something - hinting at the fact that there is more than one, and that ben wouldn't know... because he doesn't ("that boy is our only hope" "no there is another")

i think ep.III should focus on anakin and his descent from the light. the darkest moment is when he becomes "vader" - not necessarily in the armor, but definitely becoming someone other than anakin skywalker. to glance over this plot point to make sure that the OT secrets are maintained would be a shame.

basically, the secrets of the OT will be a lot to side step in the development of ep.III and therefore i don't want them to be maintained. i just want the best story possible, and i don't see that happening with all the necessary blanks the secrets would leave...

anyway, that's where i lie on these issues...

Pendo
10-01-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Wookiee
the problem lies with Episode III. If we see Padme give birth, then we know Anakin has a kid (or kids) and if see Anakin become Vader, then we know Vader has offspring. They might have to fake the deaths of the twins, (even showing twins gives away a lot) because if the audience knows that Vader has a son or daughter, it leaves the question of what becomes of him and her as the story line progresses into the OT.

The way it can be done is show that Padmé gives birth, then ONLY show one of the children. Make most of the action then revolve around that child and forget the other completley. It probably wont even have to be explained where she goes, just have Bail Organa fly off to Alderaan or something. That way the Audience will just think Luke is the only child. There can be talk of "the other" as long as it isn't revealed that "the other" is a twin.

With the Anakin as Vader thing, it's quite simple! Have Anakin believed to be killed! After Anakin's death you can have Palpatine say something along the lines of "retrieve his body" to some clones, but don't reveal why he wants it. Then just have Vader show up.
If we want to show that Obi-Wan and Yoda know it's Anakin you could have Yoda say something like "Is he, who is?" and Obi-Wan reply "I know who he is!" but leave it like that. That way it will be keeping the secret, yet still giving little hints.

I think it can be done, but only if George himself has the desire to keep it all a secret!

:)

PENDO!

darthvyn
10-01-2002, 02:43 PM
well there's always this cah-razy notion that i had...

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=138316#post138316

it works in this instance as well...

Pendo
10-01-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
it won't be a surprise in ESB when vader tells luke he's his father, because the surprise will be ruined when luke tells leia his last name in the detention block. there is no way we won't see at least ONE of the twins in ep. III. it will lead to bad story telling, i.e. how did luke come to be, how did ben end up on tatooine etc...

I don't think it's about keeping secret that Luke is Anakin's son. It's more of keeping secret that Anakin is Darth Vader! That will be the real shock in Episode V when Anakin tells Luke he is his father. "Oh my god, Vader is Anakin!!!" :eek:


Originally posted by darthvyn
and in the grand scheme of things...

the prequels are about the downfall of the republic and jedi in general, and one man - anakin, in particular. if we don't see him hit rock bottom and become vader, i think the meaning of the prequels will be lost.

I disagree. I don't think the meaning of the prequels will be lost if we don't see Anakin turn into Vader because I think we can see him turn...


Originally posted by darthvyn
i think ep.III should focus on anakin and his descent from the light. the darkest moment is when he becomes "vader" - not necessarily in the armor, but definitely becoming someone other than anakin skywalker. to glance over this plot point to make sure that the OT secrets are maintained would be a shame.

I agree that the focus of Ep3 should be his turing into Vader, but I still think it can be done without revealing him to be Vader! Like you said, "not necessarily in the armor". We can still have Anakin as Vader - evil, cold, hating, scary, and whatever else you think Vader is, but you don't have to call him Vader or show him in the suit. Have him look like he is killed by Obi-Wan near the end! Then this suspicious Vader guy pops up!


Originally posted by darthvyn
basically, the secrets of the OT will be a lot to side step in the development of ep.III and therefore i don't want them to be maintained. i just want the best story possible, and i don't see that happening with all the necessary blanks the secrets would leave...


I think for the 'best story possible' the secrets MUST be maintained. Remember, the whole Star Wars Saga is meant to be watched as one whole 12 hour movie from Episode I through to VI! Having Anakin revealed as Vader in 3 would only ruin the surprises in the last half of the movie.

PENDO!

tagmac
10-02-2002, 08:57 PM
IF Lucas decides to keep the secrets going, then perhaps Anakin never fully becomes Palpatine's new apprentice. Let's say he kills Dooku to win Palpy's approval, but is mortally wounded by Obi-Wan before he can complete his Sith training. Then, w/o showing him actually placed in the armor, 3/4 of the way through the film, Palpatine reveals his new apprentice, a "new" character named Darth Vader.

YodaBoba
10-03-2002, 08:28 PM
Here is what I can see. Padme gives birth to the twins (Luke and Leia). They are born in Episode III. Bail Organa leaves with Leia and Padme (cause Leia is the ONLY twin that remembered her mother. She told Luke in Return of the Jedi). Obi-Wan takes Luke to Tatooine to give him to Owen and Beru Lars to raise. This sets up for Star Wars: A New Hope. Yoda stays on Dagaboh or goes there to watch over the Cave of Evil. Obi-Wan changes his name to Ben Kenobi. Obi-Wan watches over Luke as well as The Lars. Yoda is watching over BOTH twins from Dagaboh. Whether we see BOTH twins is unknown. It is up to Lucas, what he wants to show and not to show.

darthvyn
10-05-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by tagmac
IF Lucas decides to keep the secrets going, then perhaps Anakin never fully becomes Palpatine's new apprentice. Let's say he kills Dooku to win Palpy's approval, but is mortally wounded by Obi-Wan before he can complete his Sith training. Then, w/o showing him actually placed in the armor, 3/4 of the way through the film, Palpatine reveals his new apprentice, a "new" character named Darth Vader.

but then we get into the problem of ben's lies to luke in ANH... why would he say vader was his pupil? he never even saw this person before, if we are to believe they are separate people...

darthvyn
10-05-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Pendo


I don't think it's about keeping secret that Luke is Anakin's son. It's more of keeping secret that Anakin is Darth Vader! That will be the real shock in Episode V when Anakin tells Luke he is his father. "Oh my god, Vader is Anakin!!!" :eek:



I disagree. I don't think the meaning of the prequels will be lost if we don't see Anakin turn into Vader because I think we can see him turn...



I agree that the focus of Ep3 should be his turing into Vader, but I still think it can be done without revealing him to be Vader! Like you said, "not necessarily in the armor". We can still have Anakin as Vader - evil, cold, hating, scary, and whatever else you think Vader is, but you don't have to call him Vader or show him in the suit. Have him look like he is killed by Obi-Wan near the end! Then this suspicious Vader guy pops up!



I think for the 'best story possible' the secrets MUST be maintained. Remember, the whole Star Wars Saga is meant to be watched as one whole 12 hour movie from Episode I through to VI! Having Anakin revealed as Vader in 3 would only ruin the surprises in the last half of the movie.

PENDO!

you're right - it would be great to keep the secret that anakin is vader. i'm not AGAINST keeping the secrets of the OT, i'm just FOR ep. III being the best it can be, and i'm not going to cut half the options by forcing the secrets to be maintained, and the whole, "the secret is anakin as vader, not vader as luke's father"
argument is a tomato/tomahto in my opinion...

i agree that we can see anakin fall to the dark side without him donning the armor, but just imagine how much more we will feel it if we DO see him in the armor! it's a symbol of how much he's fallen - disgraced and disfigured, the man inside a shell of evil... i just think that there will be more emotional impact if we let the secrets be damned and show how this man went from a loving husband, soon-to-be-father, and jedi knight, to the most evil half robot in the galaxy...



you know, instead of keeping the secrets of the OT intact with ep. III, all we really have to do is take out luke saying his last name to leia in the detention block - cuz that's when it's ruined! darth vader killed a lot of jedi - any one of those could be the one that fathered luke and was subsequently betrayed and murdered... that all falls apart when he says "i'm luke skywalker, i'm here to rescue you!" waitaminute... SKYWALKER??? as in the son of ANAKIN? but he wasn't murdered BY vader... he was killed by obi-wan, who is now calling himself ben and.... OOOHHHHH!!!

see, if we cut out any mention of his last name in ANH, then the end of ESB is still a surprise, and we still can see anakin turn into vader - secrets intact - the impact of that scene is still there! (i'm a genious... :D )

Jedi Clint
10-05-2002, 01:25 PM
Awww Vyn. This thread is playing our song.....shall we dance? ;)

If the intended audience is led to believe that Anakin died at the hands of Kenobi, then there isn't any loss of story impact as I see it. It's just a different impact from the one you have envisioned. Kenobi's speech to Luke in ANH would drop the first hint that Anakin survived, but fall short of confirmation. Perhaps you can show me where you feel the shortcomings of this approach are.

tagmac
10-05-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
you know, instead of keeping the secrets of the OT intact with ep. III, all we really have to do is take out luke saying his last name to leia in the detention block - cuz that's when it's ruined!

I think you've either never seen the first half of ESB or forgotten much of it. That scene in ANH is not the only time Luke's last name is revealed.

Han: "Do you know if Commander Skywalker has reported in yet?"

Zev: "Commander Skywalker do you copy?"

Vader "That's it, the rebels are there.....and I'm sure Skywalker is with them!"

Palpatine "We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker.........The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

Your idea was interesting, but simply not feasible without having to drasticly change the best movie of the old trilogy.

Pendo
10-05-2002, 03:45 PM
I don't think the 'not mentioning Luke's surname' thing will work. It would probably confuse the audience when Vader tell's Luke he is his father.

PENDO!

mini-rock
10-05-2002, 06:16 PM
This is something that has concerned me since EP1. I really hope Lucas can manage to keep Ani being Vader a secret until ESB, and still manage to show Vader in EP3.