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stillakid
09-19-2002, 12:19 PM
For some time now, I and a few others, have brought up numerous issues and concerns having to do with the Prequels. Our discussions have primarily centered around story conflicts within TPM and AOTC themselves and Saga conflicts which span across the entire epic (thus far).

Almost without exception, our arguments have been bulletproof in suggesting that the Prequels are altering the continuity that the Original Trilogy laid down. However, several members here insist that said conflicts do not in fact exist and that "we" are targeting the Prequels unfairly because of "Original Trilogy Worship."

Aside from the pure silliness of such a statement (what purpose would anyone on the planet have to just want to hate a movie so much as to spend time talking about it :confused: ), part of the argument has been that the Original Trilogy was too, full of story conflicts and other plot altering inconsistencies. Not to mention the supposed bad dialogue that is in league with some of the Prequel's doozies (ie, Anakin: Yippee!).

So anyhow, what this thread is about is listing all of these "problems" that the Original Trilogy supposedly has. The problems that can be considered bad enough to alter the story or continuity plus all the really bad dialogue. This is the chance for Prequel Defenders to gather in one place the truckloads of continuity story-altering problems that the Original Trilogy possesses which puts it on par with the problems in the Prequels.

:)

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 12:27 PM
Ponda Babas arm is not instantly cauterized when Ben cuts it off.

Later, in ESB, lukes hand wound is.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

Aside from the pure silliness of such a statement (what purpose would anyone on the planet have to just want to hate a movie so much as to spend time talking about it :confused: ),
:)

Have you NEVER visited the AInt it Cool message boards? ;)

stillakid
09-19-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Ponda Babas arm is not instantly cauterized when Ben cuts it off.

Later, in ESB, lukes hand wound is.

It does alter continuity that Ponda's arm isn't cauterized, but it isn't a significant story problem. :) For example, the addition of Qui Gon Jinn upsets the established continuity that Kenobi was trained by Yoda. That sort of thing.



Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Have you NEVER visited the AInt it Cool message boards? ;)

Good point! :) But I promise I'm not one of them. :)

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


It does alter continuity that Ponda's arm isn't cauterized, but it isn't a significant story problem. :) For example, the addition of Qui Gon Jinn upsets the established continuity that Kenobi was trained by Yoda. That sort of thing.



Ben has a history of Omitting certain pieces of info about the history of the problem to Luke. Now that we've seen yoda training
young padawans, it makes sense that he at some point trained child obi wan. He also was an obvious mentor to obi wan throughout life, so what obi wan told luke was true, from a certain point of view. ;)

stillakid
09-19-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Ben has a history of Omitting certain pieces of info about the history of the problem to Luke. Now that we've seen yoda training
young padawans, it makes sense that he at some point trained child obi wan. He also was an obvious mentor to obi wan throughout life, so what obi wan told luke was true, from a certain point of view. ;)

There are oodles of threads that put that line of argument to rest...definitively. :)

But that's not what this thread is about, so I won't rebute it again. I want to know what is wrong with the OT. Why is is soooo terrible. :)

El Chuxter
09-19-2002, 01:08 PM
Aqualish suddenly have multiple eyes in the prequels. That's one that really bugs me.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


There are oodles of threads that put that line of argument to rest...definitively. :)

But that's not what this thread is about, so I won't rebute it again. I want to know what is wrong with the OT. Why is is soooo terrible. :)

I'd rather you did refute it, as I haven't seen any of these threads you speak of.

And, don't get me wrong, I love the OT in ways I could never love the prequels. I just think they get unfairly criticized....

2-1B
09-19-2002, 01:33 PM
There's no point when your criticisms are defended as fact, while my enjoyment of Qui-Gonn's inclusion is just discarded as being OK "in light of the obvious problems" :rolleyes:

I'm not sure where you're going with this - just because I like TPM and AOTC and don't agree with some of your opinions on them, why do I have to come out and cite

what is wrong with the OT. Why is is soooo terrible.

It's not terrible, it's awesome! :)

Clones is my favorite, why do I have to defend that by digging out things from the OT that I don't like just to "prove" AOTC isn't as bad as other people think it is?

2-1B
09-19-2002, 01:36 PM
But since you asked. ;)

Much like stillakid argues that Anakin is so irrational and behaves irrationally in AOTC, I feel the same way about Han in ESB.

I mean, what kind of rationale would he have to go to Bespin?
Lando is there, what would be the point?

Leia: Do you trust him?
Han: No, but he is my friend.

Jeez, I trust all of my friends, I can't believe someone so suave as Han could be that irrational in a time of stress like that.

It is completely illogical that Han Solo would take Leia to Bespin, it was just a way for Kasden to get the whole cast together at the end of the movie for that shoe-horned cliffhanger.

:D
:D
:D

Beast
09-19-2002, 01:42 PM
Oh wonderful, another new thread from Stillakid with the same rehashed arguments. Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, since this discussion never gets anywhere. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
But since you asked. ;)

Much like stillakid argues that Anakin is so irrational and behaves irrationally in AOTC, I feel the same way about Han in ESB.

I mean, what kind of rationale would he have to go to Bespin?
Lando is there, what would be the point?

Leia: Do you trust him?
Han: No, but he is my friend.

Jeez, I trust all of my friends, I can't believe someone so suave as Han could be that irrational in a time of stress like that.

It is completely illogical that Han Solo would take Leia to Bespin, it was just a way for Kasden to get the whole cast together at the end of the movie for that shoe-horned cliffhanger.

:D
:D
:D

I think Hans main need to go to bespin was to get the hyperdrive repaired. I don't think It was a long term hideout option, considering the rebel fleet was on it's way to a rendezvous point.

But, you do point out that it is simply there to bring the characters to the climactic point in the film, it's really no different than Amidalas spurious logic in TPM about going back to Naboo.

As for Anakin being irrational and a little bit fly off the handle...well....isn't that kind of important to his character...in the grand scheme of things? If he were as wise and logical as Obi Wan....well....he wouldn't have turned to the darkside and become Vader.......and then we wouldn't have our precious OT ;)

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Oh wonderful, another new thread from Stillakid with the same rehashed arguments. Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, since this discussion never gets anywhere. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

erm...here...take a pillow...don't want you getting all brain damaged on us.... ;)

187-Maul
09-19-2002, 01:49 PM
I like the OT and prequel movies !
why do people complain about others not liking the OT or the prequel movies? what is so wrong about having a different oppinion? let people think what they think even if you don't agree
in my oppinion every movies has its ups and downs but I still like them all

JediTricks
09-19-2002, 04:56 PM
Gee stilla, ever the diplomat from you.

Overlord, perhaps it has something to do with why does Ponda have 2 different sets of hands in the film (flippers and hairy regular hands), I suppose one could say he didn't cauterize because his race has something in their physiology that reacts differently about having an arm cut off. Ponda Baba is the only one who bleeds from a saber cut in the whole saga though.

There's a thread about FX goofs already: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10271


Caesar, Han doesn't trust any of his smuggler friends because they are all just like him and he knows that all too well. However, he clearly doesn't suspect that Lando has changed so much that he'd become attached to being leader of Cloud City and thus betray close friends for the perceived good of his city. It wouldn't matter WHERE Han ended up taking the Falcon anyway, Fett would have tracked him there and the film's events would simply have concluded there instead of Bespin.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Gee stilla, ever the diplomat from you.

Overlord, perhaps it has something to do with why does Ponda have 2 different sets of hands in the film (flippers and hairy regular hands), I suppose one could say he didn't cauterize because his race has something in their physiology that reacts differently about having an arm cut off. Ponda Baba is the only one who bleeds from a saber cut in the whole saga though.



Actually....isn't their a blood spray when Maul is halved? That actually bothered me....GL should have known better.

JT, I think you've kind of summed up my stance on this. We can come up with all sorts of justifications for the little discrepancies in the films. It's all a matter of opinion. Yes, it's possible that Ponda Babas species don't cauterize like a human.....it's also possible that it was the first film and no one thought "hey, these lightsaber things are pretty hot, they'd probably cauterize a wound directly after making it".

;)

JediTricks
09-19-2002, 06:25 PM
Supposedly, the bleeding arm was a near-afterthought and hurried into the US end of production.

As for Maul's blood spray, when I said "saga", I meant the good movies. ;) Seriously though, I meant to put "classic saga".

For me, the prequels are a mass of discrepancies so I already have written off the first 2 prequel films in my head pretty much completely now, but when I do try to rationalize it, I have a big theory as to why Qui-Gon acted as he did, how he was wrong about midichlorians, Anakin's father, etc., etc.. But again, for me, the prequels don't hold up very well.

stillakid
09-19-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Oh wonderful, another new thread from Stillakid with the same rehashed arguments. Excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall, since this discussion never gets anywhere. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks


Ummm, I haven't "rehashed" any arguments here. Not quite sure what you're getting at. And nothing really has been discussed either yet? If you're not interested in the topic, then click on off of it. I simply want to know what is so terrible about the OT that instigates the name-calling upon me and others as OT worshipers, as in, "you just hate the prequels because you worship the original movies." That's all. :)

But I assume that no major plot inconsistencies will be offered up or any truly bad dialogue either as there really wasn't any to speak of in the OT. But I'm always willing to listen to other opinions (unlike others here, ehem :rolleyes: ), so that's the point of this thread. :)

mini-rock
09-19-2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

But I assume that no major plot inconsistencies will be offered up or any truly bad dialogue either as there really wasn't any to speak of in the OT.

Inconsistancies

"There will be no escape for the Princess this time" C-3PO (ANH)

"Who is she?" Luke Skywalker - "I'm not sure. Someone of some importance I believe." C3PO (ANH)

Truly bad dialog

What about the scene in ESB after Luke gets out of the bacta tank? That entire scene is filled with, I won't say bad, but campy(?) dialog. Just like Anakin's "Yipeee!" or "Let's spin, thats a good trick" there is plenty of it in the entire saga.

I hate to see threads that seem to seperate SW fans into groups like this.

stillakid
09-19-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Gee stilla, ever the diplomat from you.



:) I realized that this might stir up the pot a bit, but it's a question that's been on my mind for some time. I just kept forgetting to ask it here.

Actually, I think that the original statement by someone was that "we" liked the Original Trilogy then because we were too young to "see" the problems. That of course implies that little kids are ignorant saps who don't know what goes into making a story good or bad. But, regardless, it begs the question: what is wrong with the OT films? Were we just stupid brainless little chumps who could only see the hardware? Are we now "too old" to appreciate the Prequels, because, of course, "old people" are too critical? Either way, the implication was that there are problems plagueing the OT that we just didn't recognize as little kids. I want to know what those problems are. Simple question. :)

stillakid
09-19-2002, 11:13 PM
But really, I don't mean to cause trouble. Honest!

I've heard a couple of good comments already about problems (insignificant as they are) with the OT. Keep them coming! :)

JediTricks
09-19-2002, 11:31 PM
It's a matter of multiple individual perspectives and the public opinion created and swayed by certain individual perspectives, and ultimately it'll be all meaningless since some folks have different tastes than others unless you respect your point of view and accept that others don't have to agree with you. For example, I don't hear anything corny or "bad" about the dialogue that Mini-Rock just quoted, but he claims to - does that make either of us wrong and/or right? Individually, no, of course not, not as long as we really are stating our beliefs; as a group of SW fans, possibly, but at that point you either have to hide, downplay, or even give up your individual beliefs lest you become ostracized, or find the common ground that DOES connect you and generally face or avoid that which does not.

Personally, I think everything after ESB is on a downhill slope and I feel a bit like I'm one of the few who can actually see that the sky is falling. But put yourself in the shoes of someone on the other end of the equation, someone is saying "the sky is falling" and you can't see it. Sadly, some of those who take that viewpoint have become quite militant about it - when they do become loud and militant, they have lost my respect and really deserve little more of my attention; but think of this, some of those who aren't militant about it might see a SW fan like yourself in that same fashion.

It's about balance, believe what you want to believe and let the rest be what it must - if you can't have a friendly, civil conversation about it with people, then it's not worth your trouble anyway.

chewie
09-19-2002, 11:39 PM
My biggest problem with the OT was when Leia turned out to be Luke's sister. Yet one more galactic coincidence, but yet this one was very unecessary.

Luke being Vader's son was fine. After all, it added some cool, yet not exactly necessary drama to the end of ESB.

But Leia being Luke's sister is just one giant coincidence too many for myself. I actually thought of this as a kid. My tiny cognitive skills were quite perplexed at the idea. It just didn't have to be, and yet Lucas did it. Leia could have been another force sensitive, and kept blood relation out of the entire ordeal. I would have been fine with that. After all. Leia and Luke were quite friendly with each other. Luke could have gotten equally as angry with Vader if she was his sister or not. It doesn't seem to make a difference to me, and it made the story just a tad more contrived than it needed to be at that point.

The OT coincidence of Luke and Leia as siblings and their dad being the most feared man in the universe is still groan inducing to me at times, but Lucas didn't stop there. The prequel trilogy tops the mess with Anakin being born and raised on Tatooine. PLUS that young Anakin built 3P0. PLUS that R2-D2 happened to be owned by the twin's mother, Padme. PLUS that 3P0 and R2-D2 already have met up and become chums even before 3P0 got active duty as an interpreter. PLUS that Boba Fett, a very insignificant character from the OT, turns out to be the clone son of the man that spawned the Empire's Stormtroopers.

I'm not a prequel defender, I just recognize the faults of all of the movies. The OT didn't escape Lucas's penchant for improbable universal coincidence, but the prequels fare even worse off in this respect thus far. I'm afraid the last prequel movie will reveal how young Han Solo and a slightly younger Chewbacca find their way into the lives of some of the long standing prequel cast members.

JediTricks
09-20-2002, 12:21 AM
ROTJ is an honorary prequel in my book. :D

mini-rock
09-20-2002, 12:59 AM
JT, I think you may have misread my post. I don't think any dialog in any of the SW movies is truly bad.

Star Wars does to me what it's supposed to do, entertain. Focusing on problems these films might have is the opposite of what I'm trying to get out of it.

edit - ok JT I mis-read your post. :crazed:

stillakid
09-20-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
It's a matter of multiple individual perspectives and the public opinion created and swayed by certain individual perspectives, and ultimately it'll be all meaningless since some folks have different tastes than others unless you respect your point of view and accept that others don't have to agree with you. For example, I don't hear anything corny or "bad" about the dialogue that Mini-Rock just quoted, but he claims to - does that make either of us wrong and/or right? Individually, no, of course not, not as long as we really are stating our beliefs; as a group of SW fans, possibly, but at that point you either have to hide, downplay, or even give up your individual beliefs lest you become ostracized, or find the common ground that DOES connect you and generally face or avoid that which does not.


Yes, I agree. "Correct" is relative to your own experience.

However, as Chewie illustrates, there are situations that can be considered empirically "correct" from anyone's standpoint.

Whether or not Mini-Rock's dialogue example is cheesy is dependent upon personal tastes, but the coincidence factor in Chewie's example(s) can't be denied. Whether one "likes" or "accepts" them or not isn't the question. The question is, are there "problems" inherent in the saga, particulary in the OT that match the severity and depth of the problems that the Prequels introduced? The implication by some members is that yes, those types of problems do exist and that we just didn't see them in 1977 because we were too young and we refuse to see them now because of "OT worship." I'm willing to accept that accusation for the moment and open this forum up for proof of it. :) What's wrong with the OT? And thank you Chewie for your post. :)


Although, like I mentioned, I don't expect a lot of participation, especially from the traditional Prequel camp. In a similar vein, some months ago, I posted a new thread which invited members to post only the positives about the Prequels. It was one of the least visited threads ever. Apparently, the Prequels are so good, they were left speechless. :)

What I'm trying to do here is give "them" fertile ground to espouse the virtues of the saga in a way that isn't merely a defense statement against other things that have been written. I'm opening the door for somebody...anybody, to convince me that I've been wrong all this time and that the saga is absolutely flawless and that any questions that are brought up have rational explanations. Not to point fingers, but that's typically JJB's MO. Absolutely everything is logical and makes sense to him.

chewie
09-20-2002, 01:20 AM
Oh yeah. I also forgot to mention. Now that the prequels have set the precedent for the OT. Yoda, in ESB, turns out to be completely wrong in his summary of the force. TPM cast no doubt that midichlorian count is the deciding factor in using the force. You can't just tap into it through faith and training like the OT attempted to explain. :rolleyes: :)

Is this a problem with the OT or the PT? (as if I didn't already know) :D

2-1B
09-20-2002, 04:17 AM
stillakid, what gives? Are you too floored by my revelation of Han as bipolar and irrational that you don't care to disprove it? :p :p :p



Originally posted by JediTricks
Caesar, Han doesn't trust any of his smuggler friends because they are all just like him and he knows that all too well. However, he clearly doesn't suspect that Lando has changed so much that he'd become attached to being leader of Cloud City and thus betray close friends for the perceived good of his city.

Right. If he didn't suspect that, then he MUST have trusted Lando, no? At least to a certain degree?
Nope, it can't work because he does tell Leia, "I don't trust him either." And he follows with, "but he is my friend."

Poorly written. :D

-----------------------------------------------------------


I think it's totally cheesy that Luke would find himself hung upside in an ice cave with only his LIGHTSABER stuck in the cavern floor.
Really, it's so shoe-horned. What was Kasdan thinking? Nothing in ANH, from Obi-Wan to Vader, implies that an object like that could be pulled through thin air.

Fast forward to the sequel - and now Luke, a clear novice in the use of the Force, is pulling items to and fro ? :confused:
And where did he learn that from? HOW did he learn it?
Why was it only his lightsaber that stuck (within "reach") in the snow? Surely his other loose gear should have fallen too?

2-1B
09-20-2002, 04:43 AM
JT, you think the sky is falling? :confused:
You should know better than to trust a goofy chicken. :crazed:


Originally posted by JediTricks
but think of this, some of those who aren't militant about it might see a SW fan like yourself in that same fashion.

Yes yes, EXACTLY ! :) No offense stillakid, but that's exactly how I see it, and that's why I see the title of this thread as divisive.

As a non-militant, I don't like this "either/or" way of dividing fans. I love AOTC, but I don't do so in spite of anything related to the OT. And I don't need to sing the praises of the OT while chipping away at TPM and AOTC.

Take my argument re: Han's behavior in ESB. You'll dismiss it, rightfully so (hell, I don't even subscribe to it myself :D ) but it comes down to our personal views and opinions.
Yet a few months ago, you were griping about Anakin and his behavior, running around and showing it off as --ahem --"bulletproof."
Sorry, but on that issue I think the only artillery you could repell is a few pellets. But oh no ! It's been demonstrated by you and a "few others" :rolleyes: that it's correct.

That's why I am suspicious of this thread, and why it seems so condescending. :)

You mentioned JJB as being so praiseworthy of the prequels and everything-Lucas, but how many people do you really have in mind ? He's definately an eager
beaver (:D) but it's not like people run rampant around here propping up Lucas and (hehehehe McCallum).

I'm just not sure who this group of fans is that accept everything so freely . . . most fans here are so diverse in their perceptions of these films.

But if you want bad dialogue form the OT, I'll be back with some ! :D

Darth Vellner
09-20-2002, 05:42 AM
[i]

I think it's totally cheesy that Luke would find himself hung upside in an ice cave with only his LIGHTSABER stuck in the cavern floor.
Really, it's so shoe-horned. What was Kasdan thinking? Nothing in ANH, from Obi-Wan to Vader, implies that an object like that could be pulled through thin air.

Fast forward to the sequel -- and now Luke, a clear novice in the use of the Force, is pulling items to and fro ?
And where did he learn that from? HOW did he learn it? Why was it only his lightsaber that stuck (within "reach") in the snow? Surely his other loose gear should have fallen too? [/B]

What about Vader choking someone(with the force) from across the room??

Have you seen TPM or AOTC they do it in those movies...and they take place before ANH,ESB and ROTJ..
just because its not in the first movie (ANH) does not mean anything!

Do you Know anything about Star Wars???!!!!
CAR CRASH?
MARKS BANGED UP FACE?

George: Well...we'll shoot a seen where luke gets attaked by some monster to explane the Ouchie on his face..
It was not ment to be a BIG important thing!!just a quick "Hows your father" and get on with the story!!!
His Lightsaber fell off his belt when the wampa turned him over...so it WOULD be RIGHT below HIM!!!!!!


[i]"and now Luke, a clear novice in the use of the Force, is pulling items to and fro ? :confused:
And where did he learn that from? HOW did he learn it?"[/B]

Ben showed him how (off screen)..Luke-ESB: "But I've LEARNED SO Much!"...
Now you Know He was not talking about 5min Of "ON SCREEN" lessons we saw in ANH!!!....It could have been MONTHS or a year from the time they leave tatooine till Obi-Wan fights Vader and dies/becomes one with the force!!
Did they show Luke and Han put on the Stormtrooper outfits??? NO!
Directors assume the audience will draw the conclusion that they HAD to Put them on...We did not see them do it, But it Happened!!

We did not see all of lukes training in ANH..What did he learn???

Answer: in ESB we see some of what he learned:
[i]"and now Luke, a clear novice in the use of the Force, is pulling items to and fro "[/B]

stillakid
09-20-2002, 10:02 AM
You're right, Caesar, it is divisive and probably condescending as well. That's the nature of dispute. :)

But I think the primary issue in your concern is that somehow one group is "here" and one group is "there." That's kind of my point, that it is silly. When I critiqued TPM and AOTC, it was from a fan perspective. At least I watched them both. I know plenty of people who were soooo turned off by TPM, that they didn't even bother with AOTC. But in those long discussions concerning Qui Gon, Midi's, and other things, the accusation was leveled at me and others, like JT, that we were the ones who were 'non-fans' or that we were now "too old" to appreciate the simplicity of Star Wars. I guess what I'm getting at is that we are still all fans (why would we be here otherwise) and to suggest that we are blasting the Prequels just because we love the OT so much is just plain silliness.:) It's still possible to enjoy the saga (or anything in the world for that matter) and still have the capacity to see the flaws. There are some gray areas, for sure. I won't argue that. But absolutely EVERY question I put forth was somehow rationalized,...er um, explained away by somebody at some point. Some of them had room for that, but not all.

But yeah, throw that "bad" dialogue out there! :) Really! I'm curious as to what others perceive as good and bad in the OT now that I've had my field day(s) on the pristine Prequels. :) Maybe I should rename this thread "BLAST THE ORIGINALS!"

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



Although, like I mentioned, I don't expect a lot of participation, especially from the traditional Prequel camp. In a similar vein, some months ago, I posted a new thread which invited members to post only the positives about the Prequels. It was one of the least visited threads ever. Apparently, the Prequels are so good, they were left speechless. :)

What I'm trying to do here is give "them" fertile ground to espouse the virtues of the saga in a way that isn't merely a defense statement against other things that have been written. I'm opening the door for somebody...anybody, to convince me that I've been wrong all this time and that the saga is absolutely flawless and that any questions that are brought up have rational explanations. Not to point fingers, but that's typically JJB's MO. Absolutely everything is logical and makes sense to him.

hmm...well....

1. Ian McDermid: is doing a wonderful job of playing palpatine. He's perfewctly subtle, and it's going to be great when he is finally "revealed" as sidious.

2. Ewan MacGregor: Doing a wonderful job of playing Obi Wan. He's a perfect young alec guinness. You can see in AOTC how Ewan steps into the role and makes it his own.

3. It is great to see the enormous world that existed before the empire. To see the Jedi at their height...to see the old republic. I think it looks and feels stunning. I also can't wait to see it all come tumbling down.

4: the visuals: I think the prequels look brilliant. I like the cgi...and even though their are flaws....it's still better than anything else out there.

5: Yoda. Who doesn't want to see yoda take a main role in the sw saga?

6: Qui Gon JInn: I love the character, and I think he's one of the best editions to the Star Wars universe in years.


anyhow.....I'm not going to go on and on.....

Stilla.....I don't think ANYONE would try to convince ANYONE tha ANY film is flawless, because said film does not exist. Even Citizen Kane has problems, despite being technically "perfect". The problem I see is that you seem to think the little problems in the prequels are huge. I can't see too many huge problems, save for the midi chlorian thing, which I've always hated. I would state that most of the little flaws are about the same in scope of those in the OT......

Darkross
09-20-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Ponda Babas arm is not instantly cauterized when Ben cuts it off.

Later, in ESB, lukes hand wound is.

Well...maybe Ben (being old an weak in the force and rusty with his lightsaber) took longer to cut off his arm than did Vader. Perhaps Ben's lightsaber wasn't fully charged...thus causing an inconsistent and bloody dismemberment!

And yes...Luke's wrist was bloody...we just didn't see it. Cauterization isn't the absence of blood! Plus...we only saw Ponda's bloody arm...not the part still attached. Same goes with Luke...we didn't see his hand after it was cut-off...only his forearm.

Darkross
09-20-2002, 11:58 AM
When it is all said and done...we have to accept Episodes I, II, III, IV, V, VI as one story (George Lucas' story).

Someone asked me back before I saw Episode I (1999), what if don't like Episode I or are disappointed?

My response was: no matter how I feel about the film...I will eventually have to accept that it is a part of the Star Wars saga. Unfortunately...we (Star Wars Fans) can't change anything we did or didn't like about any Star Wars movie...but just accept that the prequels and OT are all part of the same story. Some of us will always like the OT over the prequels and others will feel the opposite. For me...nothing will replace the magic of the OT, however after seeing AOTC...I felt that SW magic once again, and absolutely loved the film!....so to me Episode I was only a minor set-back...hey better that it be Episode I than Episode III which ties the two trilogies together right?

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 11:58 AM
Hmmm...yes,........but cauterization seals the open wound through the heat of the blade. It would do this on both ends....not just the end still attached.

Darkross
09-20-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Hmmm...yes,........but cauterization seals the open wound through the heat of the blade. It would do this on both ends....not just the end still attached.

OK...but you forget that a lightsaber does not emit heat! It disrupts matter at the molecular level...

Perhaps when Ponda's arm fell to the floor in the Cantina...it hit with such force (perhaps he had a heavy arm???) that the wound opened up? (I know I'm grasping here...)

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Darkross


OK...but you forget that a lightsaber does not emit heat! It disrupts matter at the molecular level...

Perhaps when Ponda's arm fell to the floor in the Cantina...it hit with such force (perhaps he had a heavy arm???) that the wound opened up? (I know I'm grasping here...)

Atleast you know you're grasping ;)

honestly, I think they just realized that they couldn't have bloody stump luke sitting through that entire scene. So, they added in the cauterization thing. It's not a huge deal, it's just become an inconsistency.

stillakid
09-20-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

Stilla.....I don't think ANYONE would try to convince ANYONE tha ANY film is flawless, because said film does not exist. Even Citizen Kane has problems, despite being technically "perfect". The problem I see is that you seem to think the little problems in the prequels are huge. I can't see too many huge problems, save for the midi chlorian thing, which I've always hated. I would state that most of the little flaws are about the same in scope of those in the OT......

Ahh, but some have tried to convince me that the film is flawless in the past. After all "it's George's vision" is the excuse. My point all along is that despite individual tastes, there are some absolutes when it comes to "good writing" vs. "bad writing." Dropping an inconsistency into the mix is just plain old bad writing, no matter how someone tries to gussey it up.

For instance, in this month's INSIDER, there is an explanation for why Shmi is tied up in the camp a month after she is captured. The "bloodrite ritual" is related to the Spartan tradition in ancient Greece where young men were required to capture and kill a "helot" from among the slave class in order to gain warrior status. That's really interesting and all, but on film, it just looks like a big ol' convenient bit of writing that Ani's mom stays alive just long enough for him to watch her die in his arms. I'm not suggesting that a placard be presented on screen which explains the ancient ritual of bloodrite, but some kind of...any kind of hint as to why she would so conveniently be alive and so near death would have been helpful. That's just weak storytelling and that's not an opinion. In contrast, in ANH, when Old Ben scares the Sand People away with a loud "roar," we don't need to know that it was the cry of a Krayt Dragon or anything. With that simple setup, we get the idea that they are "easily startled," even without Ben saying it in words. In AOTC, Shmi is just tied up. We have no idea what they're doing with her. Are they going to eat her? Is she a decoration, ala Carbonite Solo? Is she a playtoy for the kidlings? We have no clue. None whatsoever.

That was just for illustrations sake. I don't want to open up another can of worms on the Prequels. The point is for the Prequel Defenders to show the numerous and vast array of examples of poor writing and presentation that exists in the OT that makes it comparable to the poor writing in the Prequels.

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 12:58 PM
Well....it would be easy enough to determine that, due to the visible bruises and signs of torture, she is being kept alive and being tortured for sport. No other explanation needs to be there. She died because she was with ani, and seeing him again allowed her to be at peace. Sure, it's a plot device.

BUT, in ESB, 3 po...a notorious coward who would barely wander off anywhere with someone, decides to be brave and go off on his own after the droid....why? Simply to forward the plot. There's no good explanation for why 3 po does that. It's completely out of character for him.

El Chuxter
09-20-2002, 03:21 PM
Hmmm.... I like the novel's way of explaining the Shmi thing much better. They tortured her, and didn't kill her because they wanted to know what kept her alive. (Turns out it was her love for Ani.)

In any case, that tribe was completely eliminated, so the Tuskens from ANH would have to be in a separate tribe, possibly with different customs and even beliefs.

JediTricks
09-20-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
JT, I think you may have misread my post. I don't think any dialog in any of the SW movies is truly bad.

Star Wars does to me what it's supposed to do, entertain. Focusing on problems these films might have is the opposite of what I'm trying to get out of it.

edit - ok JT I mis-read your post. :crazed: Hmm, "mis-read" and "mini-rock" seem to have some sort of connection... :D I may have mistunderstood your intentions, but I didn't misread your post, you quoted stilla's comment about "truly bad dialogue" and then repeated it in the middle of your post.


Caesar, yes, he trusted Lando to a certain degree, but Han is a scoundrel and speaks in a scoundrel's language - plus, it sounds cooler when you're trying to hit on a woman you've been trapped in a space cruiser for days with :D. Han's level of trust in Lando is obvious by Han's actions AND words even though on the surface they seem contradictory - that's human nature.

Luke's saber is held in place on his belt with this weird strip of metal used in accounting and secratarial work, it's just an open-ended hook that faces up. The rest of Luke's gear on Hoth is clearly in pockets, belts, or tied down in some way (his pistol is tied down with a standard holster strap). Luke's saber is the only non-standard piece of equipment he's carrying.


Stilla does have a point, OT-fans who don't love the prequels and are interested discussing them from multiple points of view are routinely bashed by prequel-fans these days and it's causing a rift. It's not that we haven't had nits to pick with the OT, but the OT is 25 years old, we've talked about the little things until they've become redundant - even Ep 1 is becoming a barren wasteland for discussion. Look at that section, there's no talking in there, people aren't talking about their favorite sequences or why they feel Mididchlorians suck or how many of Anakin's Naboo Fighter scenes shouldn't have been edited out, it's not interesting to them anymore.


Originally posted by Darkross
When it is all said and done...we have to accept Episodes I, II, III, IV, V, VI as one story (George Lucas' story).
Unless Ep 3 pulls the proverbial rabbit out of the hat, not only will I not have to, but I won't accept them that way. ESB wasn't Lucas' story, ROTJ was the story of a totally different Lucas from the one who created Star Wars, the prequels don't come from the same places within him that ANH did - so why is it a necessity that we all have to accept them? I don't feel a strong connection between the prequels and classics thus far, so why should I force myself to change my viewpoints simply because the Lucasfilm logo preceeds every movie that starts with "Star Wars"?


The lightsaber cauterization makes scientific sense from the concept that the saber blade is controlled electricity.

3PO is a protocol droid and knows the difference between dangerous situations and non-dangerous ones. The top of Cloud City is a resort hotel basically, nothing in that area is supposed to be threatening in any way so 3PO lets his guard down and seeks out a kindred droid spirit because he's lonely and misses his counterpart.

These are answers that I got from watching the films, the clues are either there or hinted at enough. When I talk about such things in the prequels, it's because there aren't even clues in the films. This is where I perceive a fundamental difference in the 2 SW fan camps.

icatch9
09-20-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock


Inconsistancies

"There will be no escape for the Princess this time" C-3PO (ANH)

"Who is she?" Luke Skywalker - "I'm not sure. Someone of some importance I believe." C3PO (ANH)

Truly bad dialog

What about the scene in ESB after Luke gets out of the bacta tank? That entire scene is filled with, I won't say bad, but campy(?) dialog. Just like Anakin's "Yipeee!" or "Let's spin, thats a good trick" there is plenty of it in the entire saga.

I hate to see threads that seem to seperate SW fans into groups like this.

I'm not going to get in the middle of all this gobildy gook. Still what I always thought about C3P0's couple of lines mentioned above is that he was lieing to Luke (no one ever said he couldn't lie). He didn't know Luke from Adam and 3P0 is probally programed to protect Leia's identity from strangers. So, he could just be protecting her as much as he can.

Or maybe the Jawa's just tinckered with his thinker :D?

mini-rock
09-20-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by icatch9


I'm not going to get in the middle of all this gobildy gook. Still what I always thought about C3P0's couple of lines mentioned above is that he was lieing to Luke (no one ever said he couldn't lie). He didn't know Luke from Adam and 3P0 is probally programed to protect Leia's identity from strangers. So, he could just be protecting her as much as he can.

Or maybe the Jawa's just tinckered with his thinker :D?

It could have been a number of reasons, and the same thing could be said for Shmi when Ani found her in the Tusken camp, or when Luke went to see Yoda in ROTJ at the same time he died. :)

2-1B
09-21-2002, 01:56 AM
Darth Vellner - take it easy guy, my post was ripe with sarcasm. ;)

JT - were Luke's binocs "clearly tied down" ? :crazed:



Stillakid - are you kidding me about the Shmi torture thing? The krayt dragon thing is perfectly done but Shmi in the camp is a joke?
Well, when I saw that in the movie, I wasn't bothered by it AT ALL. Big deal, it was obvious to me that they were just evil sadistic creatures who enjoyed torture.

Oops, I must be a moron because according to your infallible decree:

That's just weak storytelling and that's not an opinion. Well I'll be damned ! What a moron I've been since May, all this time I was enjoying it as a cool part of the story. :rolleyes:

That's your problem right there ! How in hades am I unqualified to form my OPINION that the Tusken torture is a great scene ? ? ? Hmm ? ? ?
I absolutely respect your opinion that it's bad writing, but when you take that condescending POV that it's a matter of fact, it's just disheartening. :mad:

Jeez, you wondered why people don't go into your "why do you like TPM thread" ?
Here's an idea - BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T CARE TO PUT THEIR OPINIONS UP AGAINST YOUR SET-IN-STONE FACTS.

I'm not at all interested in "proving" to you why the OT is bad in this respect or that respect. Nor do I care to "prove" to you why parts of the PT are great.
The reason I'm here is because I would LIKE to trade opinions back and forth, to hear other people's POV. But I sure as hell am not going to offer my likes or dislikes only to have them relegated to the crap pile of
"oh, that's nice that you can enjoy that part of the movie even though it's obviously faulted."

Condescending indeed, and I fully disagree with you that it has anything to do with "the nature of dispute."
This is supposed to be a discussion, a discussion based on our opinions of the films. Enough of this matter-of-fact business --- it contributes to a thread's death just as much as some whacked out loon instantly accusing you of being "too old" or "too critical".


:)

stillakid
09-21-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Darth Vellner - take it easy guy, my post was ripe with sarcasm. ;)

JT - were Luke's binocs "clearly tied down" ? :crazed:



Stillakid - are you kidding me about the Shmi torture thing? The krayt dragon thing is perfectly done but Shmi in the camp is a joke?
Well, when I saw that in the movie, I wasn't bothered by it AT ALL. Big deal, it was obvious to me that they were just evil sadistic creatures who enjoyed torture.

Oops, I must be a moron because according to your infallible decree:
Well I'll be damned ! What a moron I've been since May, all this time I was enjoying it as a cool part of the story. :rolleyes:

That's your problem right there ! How in hades am I unqualified to form my OPINION that the Tusken torture is a great scene ? ? ? Hmm ? ? ?
I absolutely respect your opinion that it's bad writing, but when you take that condescending POV that it's a matter of fact, it's just disheartening. :mad:

Jeez, you wondered why people don't go into your "why do you like TPM thread" ?
Here's an idea - BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T CARE TO PUT THEIR OPINIONS UP AGAINST YOUR SET-IN-STONE FACTS.

I'm not at all interested in "proving" to you why the OT is bad in this respect or that respect. Nor do I care to "prove" to you why parts of the PT are great.
The reason I'm here is because I would LIKE to trade opinions back and forth, to hear other people's POV. But I sure as hell am not going to offer my likes or dislikes only to have them relegated to the crap pile of
"oh, that's nice that you can enjoy that part of the movie even though it's obviously faulted."

Condescending indeed, and I fully disagree with you that it has anything to do with "the nature of dispute."
This is supposed to be a discussion, a discussion based on our opinions of the films. Enough of this matter-of-fact business --- it contributes to a thread's death just as much as some whacked out loon instantly accusing you of being "too old" or "too critical".


:)

Please accept my apology for presenting my opinions so staunchly. What seems "obvious" to me apparently isn't, as likewise.

The original implication (by others) was that the OT was just as "bad" as the Prequels in many respects concerning plot development, consistency, contradiction, character development, and dialogue. My own "opinions" are well documented in the forums concerning the Prequels and the point wasn't to delve into it all over again. The point was to open up a forum to "disuss" the problems with the OT in the same way. It hasn't escaped my notice that many of the players who made the original accusation haven't stepped foot in this thread. Perhaps there's no "proof" to back up their claims.

The nature of discussion is inherently condescending. Person A says something and person B disagrees. What that means is that person B believes that person A is wrong. That may be for a variety of reasons such as a) person B thinks A is misinformed b) under informed, c) or more insulting reasons like ignorant, or d) stubborn, etc. To put it into a real world scenario, the cuts on Shmi did not make it obvious to me that the Sandpeople took her just for the fun of torture. The detailed explanation in the INSIDER months and months later made it clear, but the events in the movie itself did not. In that case, as far as the explanation goes, I was under-informed, and I blame that on inadequate writing and the presentation in the film.

Anyway, I never mean to be intentionally personal when stating my side of things. The "nature of dispute" just naturally takes that course. To say "you're wrong and I'm right" can't help but be insulting if taken personally. I humbly request that you not take it so.

Thank you.

JediTricks
09-21-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
JT - were Luke's binocs "clearly tied down" ? :crazed:Yup... on his tauntaun.

Shmi was taken by the Tuskens because Lucas had run out of ideas again and borrowed from classic western films - "injuns (natives) are bad, hate white man, kidnap and torture to express hate". It was a poor storytelling device 60 years ago and it still is, there's no motivation for it at all except to play on whitey's fears and ignorance of the natives. I saw a western recently (John Ford's "Two Wrode Together") where the commanche were actually explained as to why they took the women and children - they turned them into commanche to fill their thinning ranks. It wasn't a perfect explanation and didn't seem terribly realistic, but it at least tried to explain WHY the white boys were tortured (rites of becoming a commanche male) and why the women were taken (for wives, who were not ritually tortured, but were forced to mate for child-bearing purposes).

mini-rock
09-21-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Yup... on his tauntaun.

Shmi was taken by the Tuskens because Lucas had run out of ideas again

I think it's hilarious when people make statements like this, like they actually get phone calls from GL saying "I don't know what to do! I'm all out of ideas!"
:rolleyes:

JediTricks
09-21-2002, 05:24 PM
The alternative seems to be that Lucas is actually just a cinematographer who simply got lucky once when he all but tripped over the right recipe to make a film and can't seem to remember the secret ingredient anymore.

Lucas has been a fan of the cinema all his life, he should KNOW this cliche backwards and forwards, he went to film school so he probably had to write essays on why it's a cheap cliche, yet he neither improved upon it nor made it work within the context of the situation, he slapped it in there with the crudest of reasonings to move the story along - he used a cheap plot device in that cheap manner under the offensive guise that "it's just a kiddie movie" as if children deserve to be treated like jello-heads and mush-brains by their entertainment.

I would be quite surprised if anybody could find a reasonable alternative as to why Lucas would use this hackneyed plot device (and "because he wanted to" or "because it's his story" aren't reasonable alternatives to its usage).

mini-rock
09-21-2002, 06:42 PM
Well, if this were your story how would you have done it? You know, have Shmi die?

stillakid
09-21-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Well, if this were your story how would you have done it? You know, have Shmi die?

GOOD QUESTION! :)

Knowing what we know about Anakin from the OT, something terrible happens (or is supposed to) which drives him to hate the Jedi and the Republic. It is for this "unknown" reason that he turns on everyone that cares about him and wipes them out.

At the moment, in AOTC, Anakin is only expressing some manufactured rage because he hasn't graduated to full fledged Jedi (or something to that effect) and he blames it on Obi Wan (for no good reason). To enhance this sense of justified blame, Lucas should have had Shmi's death be a direct cause of something the Republic or the Jedi did or did not do. As of AOTC, her death is just a random "wrong place at the wrong time" occurance. Just "convenience" for the sake of "convenience" to move the story along.

So what should GL have done to kill her off specifically? There are a variety of options, all as fictional as the Sand People one, but only a few which could also actually make a connection to the rest of Anakin's character arc and thusly create a situation wherein his rage is justified. The Sand People Torture idea just wasn't one of them.


But even with what he did do, had Anakin snuck into the camp and actually witnessed his mother being tortured then whooshed into save her, that obscure Dennis-Millerian reference to ancient torture techniques would never had been a question. It still wouldn't have given Anakin any more justification for blaming her death on the Jedi, but it would have smoothed out the concerns that I expressed in posts previous.

Beast
09-21-2002, 06:59 PM
Anakin can indeed indirectly blame her death on the Jedi, especially Obi-Wan. But since you never even gave my original post about that any consideration, I won't bother reposting any of it. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
09-21-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
because Lucas had run out of ideas again and borrowed

Interesting, the same has been said from the start of the series. What was that you said in the past about Kurtz and Lucas trying to secure rights to Hidden Fortress? How about the (tired?) damsel in distress plot? Farmboy makes good? Seen that before.

See, that's my problem with the "Original Trilogy Worship" approach - ANH is not very creative in that it borrows from so many areas, yet it's hailed as some sort of masterpiece. I love it too, but I'm not so reverant about it.

JT takes on "Prequel Defenders" by saying a scene like Shmi's death is old and tired, and George just ran out of ideas.
As opposed to all those wonderful inventions in Hidden Fortress I mean ANH. :)

Beast
09-21-2002, 09:36 PM
Caesar, did I ever tell you that your my hero. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-21-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Interesting, the same has been said from the start of the series. What was that you said in the past about Kurtz and Lucas trying to secure rights to Hidden Fortress? How about the (tired?) damsel in distress plot? Farmboy makes good? Seen that before.

See, that's my problem with the "Original Trilogy Worship" approach - ANH is not very creative in that it borrows from so many areas, yet it's hailed as some sort of masterpiece. I love it too, but I'm not so reverant about it.

JT takes on "Prequel Defenders" by saying a scene like Shmi's death is old and tired, and George just ran out of ideas.
As opposed to all those wonderful inventions in Hidden Fortress I mean ANH. :)


Personally, I don't dislike any of it because of it's dirivative nature. For one thing, it truly is difficult to come up with something totally new and unique. The interesting aspect of art is how someone takes something familiar and presents it in a new light.

For instance, his entire presentation of a "used future" is something that had never been done before. Space fantasy up to that time was always shiny and mysterious. So applying the "car up on blocks in the backyard" mentality to the environments was innovative. There are specifics that didn't work for me because they cut far too close to the original material to be considered "a new twist." Such as the 5th Element opening sequence theft. There are elements right out of DUNE that Frank Herbert himself kidded Lucas about. The Hidden Fortress stuff can't be denied. All in all, it's obvious that Lucas steals practically everything we see. But it's all in how well he disguises it within the Star Wars Universe that ultimately illustrates just how good an artist he is.

And Jar Jar, I never ever ignore another person's input. Ever. Just because I consider it, evaluate it, and then deny it's validity doesn't mean I'm ignoring it. :) As in the Shmi "clinging to life until the moment her son arrives" sequence, it took a few months for me to read the official explanation (in this month's INSIDER), but now that I've seen it, I now understand that he actually put some thought into it. Not particularly good thought, mind you, but it appears as though it wasn't just plunked down on film. I'll never ignore someone else's opinions or input, but I'm under no obligation to fall into lockstep in the company line, as you tend to, as you see everything as valid, meaningful, and flawless. I'm not like that. I'm not afraid to question. I'm not always right. Nobody is. I don't always have the necessary information needed to make the most accurate evaluation of the purpose of something. The explanation for that Tatooine sequence came months later, not in the film where it belongs. It was finally explained. I don't think that it was illustrated particularly well in the film, if that truly was the point (ancient blood ritual) or if it was an afterthought to quell the fan unrest. But I'm willing to go out on a limb and examine what I see in front of me, question it if necessary, and sometimes arrive at an unfortunate conclusion ( I want to absolutely LOVE everything in the Star Wars Universe. REALLY! I mean it. But he screwed up. It's my fault that I chose to dig in and see the flaws, but it's not my fault that they are there). I'm sorry if you are incapable of doing that, but please accept that others choose to. Thank you. Have a nice day! :)

Beast
09-21-2002, 10:31 PM
I don't think reading a post, and then replying to it a moment later is putting any serious "consideration or evaluation" into whats presented there. That's why I no longer choose to discuss your problems with the film anymore.

Again, I'm not going to bring up any of the previous things that I have stated because you don't bother to take into account anything but your facts (note, that I didn't say opinions) into comprehension. It's a waste of time for me to even bother typing them up. Your like a food critic, that never samples the food. You only look at the presentation, and never get to the meal.

I'm sorry that it took having it spoonfed to you by the Insider to actually understand what was going on. Most people understood it from the information presented in the film. I was going to keep my nose out of the thread, but it gets frustrating that you have argued the same points for months, years in the case of TPM. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-21-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I don't think reading a post, and then replying to it a moment later is putting any serious "consideration or evaluation" into whats presented there. That's why I no longer choose to discuss your problems with the film anymore.

Again, I'm not going to bring up any of the previous things that I have stated because you don't bother to take into account anything but your facts (note, that I didn't say opinions) into comprehension. It's a waste of time for me to even bother typing them up. Your like a food critic, that never samples the food. You only look at the presentation, and never get to the meal.

I'm sorry that it took having it spoonfed to you by the Insider to actually understand what was going on. Most people understood it from the information presented in the film. I was going to keep my nose out of the thread, but it gets frustrating that you have argued the same points for months, years in the case of TPM. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

So how much time elapsed between your reading my post and your response? :rolleyes:

If you had any sense of how to subtly tell a story, you'd recognize that I'm not asking to be spoonfed anything. With all those DVD's you own, it should become clear what good storytelling is and perhaps how to do it yourself. It's easy for you to attack the messenger, in that case me, when you aren't interested in hearing the message. It's a common technique in fact when a person has little credibility to their defense. Most people did not understand what Lucas was trying to say in the Prequel films, despite your own personal belief about it. The first was widely panned by critics and original fans alike. The second was better than the first, but that is only known by those who gave it a chance. Almost every week I run into someone else who didn't even bother seeing AOTC because they were so let down by TPM. It's clear that you're a hard core fan and will be til the end of time. Great. Fantastic. You like what he's doing. But accept that not every does and accept that those of us that don't aren't ignorant dunderheads looking to be "spoonfed." We saw quality in the original films and see a lack of the same effort being applied in the new ones. That's all. That's it. Accept it and get over it.

I simply asked for examples of poor "whatever" that are present in the Original Trilogy. As you feel that everything about the saga is pure and flawless, I wouldn't expect that you'd have anything to contribute. I'll start a thread soon enough so that all the examples of what he did right can be presented. Feel free to copy and paste the complete screenplays in there as you see fit. :)


To all others, I apologize deeply for the inherent personal nature of the preceding. It's something that I strive to militantly avoid, but the member in question has repeatedly strayed from the conversations at hand to interject posts of a personal nature. Any critique of the saga whatsoever results in immediate and personal rebuttal which demands response. I apologize and return you to your regularly scheduled post. :)

Beast
09-21-2002, 11:03 PM
The Original Trilogy was panned by almost all critics when it came out, with the same lame arguments that you bring up everytime you try to say the Prequels suck. Remeber that review of ESB that I posted back a while ago. It sounded exactly like you talking about the prequels. Again, I read your posts but I'm not debating you. I'm just saying that you are unwilling to see anyone elses opinions outside anything that doesn't fall into what you consider your facts. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
09-22-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The Original Trilogy was panned by almost all critics when it came out

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I remember this being brought up over at the HTF some months ago, were you part of that? If so I'm sure you will remember that there were a helluva alot more positive reviews & few negative. I'll try to find that thread.:)

Caesar, great post man! :)

bigbarada
09-22-2002, 02:42 AM
Check this out, you might get a kick out of it:)

http://www.cyberscumbag.com/jedi.html

Anyways, liking the prequels doesn't mean that you automatically have to hate the OT. I like all the films, some better than others. While I will acknowledge that if I were to check out a "Filmmaking for Dummies" book, ANH would cover all the bases; that doesn't mean that I enjoy watching it more than any other Star Wars films. In fact, I have a lot of problems watching ANH since it just looks so dated.

Ep2 is my favorite film, simply because of the Battle of Geonosis. Is that shallow? Of course it is. But I don't care. I don't refer to textbook checklists or critics comments to learn what movies I am "supposed to" like.

I would argue more, but Caesar already stated everything so perfectly. And that's a fact!:p

jedihunter25
09-22-2002, 03:22 AM
I like both- AOTC and ESB are my favorite, while TPM and ROTJ are my least- but I like them all.

2-1B
09-22-2002, 03:35 AM
cool link, bigB :cool:

I just finished reading all 50 of their reasons, some of them I am in agreement on, while I strongly disagree with some other opinions.

But when I read this . . .

41. Paradoxical Lessons in the Force

Yoda says the only way Luke can become a Jedi is to face Vader. Minutes later, he says it's unfortunate that Luke rushes to face Vader. This is in addition to Yoda's mention in Empire that if Luke faces Vader, he'll become an agent of evil. So he needs to face Vader to become a Jedi, but he can't face Vader or else he'll become a slave to the Dark Side. This is a paradox on par with the one Kirk used to confuse and blow up Nomad.
. . . I had to wonder how they could watch ROTJ with such a fine comb yet totally embarrass themselves on this "reason" why ROTJ sucks. :rolleyes:

:stupid: Yoda was talking about Luke rushing to face Vader during ESB, not ROTJ.

Yoda: "that, not ready for the burden were you."

:stupid:

bigbarada
09-22-2002, 03:48 AM
I'm kind of half-and-half on his reasons. There were plenty of :rolleyes: complaints that I thought were just silly and too nit-picky.

What I thought was funny was his disgust with the burping jokes and his comment that Lucas was saving the fart jokes for the next film.:D:D I wouldn't have wanted to be sitting next to that guy on his first viewing of TPM. (or maybe I would, that could be amusing):)

I just thought it was kind of humorous that if the prequels had never been released, we would all be here arguing about the ROTJ-haters. Or the Ewok-haters. It's a never ending evil cycle.:evil:;)

2-1B
09-22-2002, 04:04 AM
Yeah, I found some nit-picking too . . . I think they made some great points about Han's character being glossed over too much from ANH and ESB (I'll add to the argument that I think that character has less room for change between films since he was frozen and had NO of screen adventures in between :) )

But I thought this was way too foolish (and I'm paraphrasing since I no longer have the page up :p ) :

Hoth is praised as one of the fantastic locales along with Bespin and (Tunisian) Tatooine. But Endor is derided as pretty **-hum. A routine forest of trees is the impression they gave . . . well, the same could be said for the snow on Hoth ! :stupid:

In fact, for the sake of argument I WILL say it. From my POV, every winter as a kid I would head out into the 6+" of snow we had and play the hell out of my Hoth figures. Snow was pretty routine for me, Hoth never captivated me as somehow exotic.

However, when I saw those trees in ROTJ (what were they? Sequoia? I'm thinking Redwood . . . ) I was pretty amazed!
We have nothing around here NEAR that height, it is honestly kinda "exotic" to me.

Maybe the opposite would hold true for Californian fans like stillakid and JT? Just a thought, but anyway that's my commentary on the exoticness of Hoth vs. the exoticness of Endor. :)

The Overlord Returns
09-22-2002, 01:21 PM
another funny thing is that when ESB was released......there was a universally hated character in it that, at the time, was considered as loathsome as old Jar jar....

and that characters name was.....Yoda.

Funny, he is now considered a classic of the series, and indispensible.

stillakid
09-22-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Check this out, you might get a kick out of it:)

http://www.cyberscumbag.com/jedi.html

Anyways, liking the prequels doesn't mean that you automatically have to hate the OT. I like all the films, some better than others. While I will acknowledge that if I were to check out a "Filmmaking for Dummies" book, ANH would cover all the bases; that doesn't mean that I enjoy watching it more than any other Star Wars films. In fact, I have a lot of problems watching ANH since it just looks so dated.

Ep2 is my favorite film, simply because of the Battle of Geonosis. Is that shallow? Of course it is. But I don't care. I don't refer to textbook checklists or critics comments to learn what movies I am "supposed to" like.

I would argue more, but Caesar already stated everything so perfectly. And that's a fact!:p

Thank you for the link! I don't have time to read it through right now, but hopefully later today. :) Have a good Sunday. That's a fact! :)

stillakid
09-22-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
However, when I saw those trees in ROTJ (what were they? Sequoia? I'm thinking Redwood . . . ) I was pretty amazed!
We have nothing around here NEAR that height, it is honestly kinda "exotic" to me.

Maybe the opposite would hold true for Californian fans like stillakid and JT? Just a thought, but anyway that's my commentary on the exoticness of Hoth vs. the exoticness of Endor. :)

I didn't move to CA until about 10 years ago so I had the same unfortunate experience with winters back home. :) I finally got to see those forests in 1994. It really is awe inspiring. The movie doesn't capture it in the same way, but photographs rarely do. Just to stand at the base of one of those Redwoods and look up is unbelievable. Slamming into one at 200 mph would be memorable too...for a second anyway. :) Speaking of that, one thing that always bothered my was that Luke and Leia's cloaks weren't blowing around hard enough. Anyone who has sat in the back of a pickup truck doing just 40 mph knows how strongly the wind whips around you. Try 200. It just wasn't right. :) Not plot destroying, of course, but not quite accurate either.

stillakid
09-22-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The Original Trilogy was panned by almost all critics when it came out, with the same lame arguments that you bring up everytime you try to say the Prequels suck. Remeber that review of ESB that I posted back a while ago. It sounded exactly like you talking about the prequels. Again, I read your posts but I'm not debating you. I'm just saying that you are unwilling to see anyone elses opinions outside anything that doesn't fall into what you consider your facts. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I'm very willing to see other opinions. Your error is in assuming that I am not just because I don't believe in your own "proof."

But I should apologize. It's clear that Star Wars is very important to you, based on the way you scramble around the forums putting out fires of dissent. I don't mean to disrupt your passion with discouraging words. However, I am honored that you have chosen to make my opinions such a priority in your life. Thank you! It's a nice feeling to know that my thoughts and feelings are important to someone. :)

JediTricks
09-23-2002, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Interesting, the same has been said from the start of the series. What was that you said in the past about Kurtz and Lucas trying to secure rights to Hidden Fortress? How about the (tired?) damsel in distress plot? Farmboy makes good? Seen that before.

See, that's my problem with the "Original Trilogy Worship" approach - ANH is not very creative in that it borrows from so many areas, yet it's hailed as some sort of masterpiece. I love it too, but I'm not so reverant about it.

JT takes on "Prequel Defenders" by saying a scene like Shmi's death is old and tired, and George just ran out of ideas.
As opposed to all those wonderful inventions in Hidden Fortress I mean ANH. :) Whoa whoa whoa, talk about focusing on the wrong part. You're assuming that my statement "Shmi was taken by the Tuskens because Lucas had run out of ideas again and borrowed" has a negative connotation. Indeed if that were the case, then why would I have put "again" in there? My point was the actual item he borrowed was a trite movie cliche and that's where the problem lies.

It's not a question of borrowing, I have always found it interesting that Lucas and Kurtz wanted to buy the rights to Hidden Fortress because ANH was so close to it at that time.

I didn't say a scene like "death of Shmi" was old and tired, I said that very scene was old and tired (or to be more accurate, it's borrowed from something old, tired, hackneyed, and poorly expanded upon). Thus, you are making a totally incorrect assumption about my motivations behind my comments in post 46 (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=178476#post178476) - I was commenting only on that scene and you assumed I was commenting on the prequels and their defenders.



BB, Endor was indeed boring for me in terms of locale - trees are EVERYWHERE around here, but so is desert and Tatooine always feels fairly interesting, though I think that's from showing big areas and lots of them - Endor feels tight, confined, no real "voice", the same problem for the first moon of Yavin exterior shots (though the flying-out-of-the-hangar shots from Yavin had more personality).


Stilla, the aerodynamics of a speederbike would probably be refined and even manipulated to keep the rider from being pulled off the bike, unlike a pickup truck.

jjreason
09-23-2002, 05:32 PM
I think the only reason we nitpick in the first place is because we've watched these damned movies 48 ways 'til Sunday. Who actually remembers griping about the OT movies when you first saw them? Nobody. They were great. Anything and everything will breakdown and reveal cracks if it's watched OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. We start to see where we would have done things differently, and begin to think those areas faulty. That's opinion folks, and like backsides everyone's got one, and nobody ever thinks their's stinks.

The Star Wars movies are all great. Why separate them and argue about which generation is better? Nobody's telling you you have to watch the OT if you're sick of it, OR the prequels if they turn you off.

Sorry, threads that pick at problems with these movies get my goat. I now have the goat back and return you to your thread.

Darth Vellner
09-23-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by jjreason
I think the only reason we nitpick in the first place is because we've watched these damned movies 48 ways 'til Sunday. Who actually remembers griping about the OT movies when you first saw them? Nobody. They were great. Anything and everything will breakdown and reveal cracks if it's watched OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. We start to see where we would have done things differently, and begin to think those areas faulty. That's opinion folks, and like backsides everyone's got one, and nobody ever thinks their's stinks.

The Star Wars movies are all great. Why separate them and argue about which generation is better? Nobody's telling you you have to watch the OT if you're sick of it, OR the prequels if they turn you off.

Sorry, threads that pick at problems with these movies get my goat. I now have the goat back and return you to your thread.

Thats IT!:) We have a winner!!:)

Originally posted by jjreason
Who actually remembers griping about the OT movies when you first saw them? Nobody. They were great. Anything and everything will breakdown and reveal cracks if it's watched OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. We start to see where we would have done things differently, and begin to think those areas faulty.

:D This thread can be closed now:D
:happy: jjreason got it right!!!

:happy: :D :) ;) :p :cool: :D :) :happy: :p :D :) ;)

mini-rock
09-23-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by jjreason
I think the only reason we nitpick in the first place is because we've watched these damned movies 48 ways 'til Sunday. Who actually remembers griping about the OT movies when you first saw them? Nobody. They were great. Anything and everything will breakdown and reveal cracks if it's watched OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. We start to see where we would have done things differently, and begin to think those areas faulty. That's opinion folks, and like backsides everyone's got one, and nobody ever thinks their's stinks.

The Star Wars movies are all great. Why separate them and argue about which generation is better? Nobody's telling you you have to watch the OT if you're sick of it, OR the prequels if they turn you off.

Sorry, threads that pick at problems with these movies get my goat. I now have the goat back and return you to your thread.

BAM!! I couldn't have said it better myself jj. :)

stillakid
09-23-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by jjreason
I think the only reason we nitpick in the first place is because we've watched these damned movies 48 ways 'til Sunday.

On the contrary, this is kind of the point. It took merely one viewing a piece of the Prequel films to find glaring problems. I swear I didn't see the R5D4 behind R2 until this decade. :)

Prequel defenders claim that the OT films had just as many problems as the Prequels (if they admit to the problems with the Prequels in the first place ;) ) so the thread merely asks the forum users to list said problems.

Chill out. It's just a thread. Unless you feel so threatened by others "bashing" the hobby that it might cause you to not like it anymore? :confused: I've never really understood that. If you want to remain blissfully ignorant of deeper issues then that's your perojative. Others like to discuss the story, what works, what doesn't. That sort of thing. There's plenty of room for people to praise the films and the toys, but not too many people do. Why do you suppose that is?

jjreason
09-23-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


There's plenty of room for people to praise the films and the toys, but not too many people do. Why do you suppose that is?

I don't suppose that at all. There are over 3000 people praising Star Wars right here in front of us - the registered members of this site. Who but a fool would register himself as a user of a fan site and not like the subject at hand? Look at the forums Stillakid, they're full of "Favorite this" and "Favorite that" threads, "Best _____ ever" threads and the like. We as a community love Star Wars. To create a list of inconsistencies and minor grievances with continuity in a place where people are going to read it is disrespectful of the creator and the creation.

Should we actually have the audacity to assume George Lucas has to be accountable for the fare he creates? To whom? We are not bound to consume these products. They do not effect our safety or wellbeing. They're toys and movies - things that are supposed to provide escapism and some fun. If you don't see that, or aren't using them for this end, then maybe you should seek out another hobby that can provide you those things.

stillakid
09-24-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by jjreason


I don't suppose that at all. There are over 3000 people praising Star Wars right here in front of us - the registered members of this site. Who but a fool would register himself as a user of a fan site and not like the subject at hand? Look at the forums Stillakid, they're full of "Favorite this" and "Favorite that" threads, "Best _____ ever" threads and the like. We as a community love Star Wars. To create a list of inconsistencies and minor grievances with continuity in a place where people are going to read it is disrespectful of the creator and the creation.

Should we actually have the audacity to assume George Lucas has to be accountable for the fare he creates? To whom? We are not bound to consume these products. They do not effect our safety or wellbeing. They're toys and movies - things that are supposed to provide escapism and some fun. If you don't see that, or aren't using them for this end, then maybe you should seek out another hobby that can provide you those things.

Well said. But what's the harm in critique? Is fandom limited to "worship" only? What better way to praise something than to hold it to a higher standard?

I expect very little from a Steven Segal movie. However, because of the relatively high quality of the Original Star Wars Trilogy, I, and many many others on the planet, expected the same from the Prequels. I, and many many others, did not witness the same level of quality in the Prequels. That was very disappointing, and no, I am not a die-hard fan of them. I am still a fan of the saga though, of what it was, and what it could have been (or should have been.) But, no, I reject the idea that being a fan equates to Worship and putting blinders on. If I didn't like the idea so much, I would drop these movies into the same bucket as the Segal films. Why are people here so afraid to hear any critique at all?

Beast
09-24-2002, 12:27 AM
Maybe your expections were not met, because waiting 16 years for Episode 1 caused your expectations to be at such a high level that nothing short of the second coming would have been able to match them and satisfy you. So you were disapointed in a film that was no better or worse then the original films. Your blinder comments work both ways you know, you can be blind to any flaws of the OT, because you were young and had no expectations for them. You were swept up in the magic, but 16 years of big hollywood pictures dulled you to that magic. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-24-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Maybe your expections were not met, because waiting 16 years for Episode 1 caused your expectations to be at such a high level that nothing short of the second coming would have been able to match them and satisfy you. So you were disapointed in a film that was no better or worse then the original films. Your blinder comments work both ways you know, you can be blind to any flaws of the OT, because you were young and had no expectations for them. You were swept up in the magic, but 16 years of big hollywood pictures dulled you to that magic. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Aha! And that brings us right back to the point of the thread. :) What are the flaws in the OT that I was so young and naive to ignore? Was I so ignorant and stupid as a child that I just didn't...no, couldn't see major story problems? Maybe I'm giving children too much credit. Perhaps they are dumb and respond only to bright shiny objects. Therein could be the flaw in my supposition.

But no, I don't think so. If you've paid attention to my comments over the past year...and I know you have :)...then you'll recall that I've said many times that I thought that The Phantom Menace was dangerously close to being acceptable, if not good. One, maybe two, more rewrites and it would have been golden. The most frustrating part is that he was soooo close, but just missed the mark. A story tweak here, an edit there. The originals went through that process. GL was wise enough then to hire additional writers to polish off his ideas. Had he followed through this time with the same attitude, we'd be in the same boat as we are with the OT. Instead of major flaws, we could be be nitpicking over whether or not a lightsaber cauterizes a wound. Silly fun stuff. But sadly, that's not the case. The Prequels set up new continuity. They introduced significantcontradictory elements. The OT was guilty of nothing of the sort.

I wasn't asking for the Second Coming. All I desired was a story well told, the way that he did it so many years ago. Perhaps the years have had their effect on me. A little behind the scenes knowledge is bound to strip away "the magic." But it can also enlighten one to a more profound and meaningful way of seeing things.

roger roger
09-24-2002, 01:16 AM
I know all the flaws from E1 and 2 and to be honest, i really dont' care about them. I'm willing to overlook them,so that's all taht matters to me.

The original films were more solid in terms of storytellign, but just don't have that visual punch that makes me like the prequels so much more.

bigbarada
09-25-2002, 06:07 PM
I've heard a lot of people say that the OT was panned by all the critics when it was initially released also. So, I've decided to do some research on this subject. Since most online reviews of the OT are for the Special Editions or written retroactively by people who were kids during 1977, I decided to look further back at the original reviews of Star Wars from May 1977. Fortunately my college library has issues of Time, People, and Newsweek going all the way back to the 60s.

The critics did unanimously agree on one thing. That Star Wars was innovative, brilliant, revolutionary and, simply put, the best movie of the year. ESB got less than stellar reviews and the critics thought it was kind of a let down, ROTJ was widely praised in it's initial release also (with Time magazine claiming it was the best of the series).

As much as I hate to prove myself wrong, it would appear that the idea that the OT was panned by all critics during it's initial release is a myth. At least going by all the pre-release reviews.

I can't scan these articles since they are bound into books and cannot be taken out of the library; but I will try to photocopy the three main Star Wars 1977 reviews and reproduce them here (the pictures in the articles are nothing we all haven't seen hundreds of times before anyway).

I still like the prequels, however, if I had to recommend one movie from all six to someone who had never seen the series and could only watch one film for some reason: I would recommend ANH. Put simply, it is the most concise, solid and intelligent of all the films. Plus, it is the only one that can be viewed as a stand alone film (before the SE changes that is).

Even though Ep3 hasn't been made yet, I don't see any reason to believe why it would be any different from TPM and AOTC. Like ROTJ, it will require viewers to have seen the previous films; and like ESB, it will most likely end with a cliffhanger that leads directly into ANH. Thus it will probably be one of the least stand alone of all the films.

Beast
09-25-2002, 06:27 PM
Yes, but those are only a few examples, BigB. And notice that the film that most fans consider the best of the three did get less then stellar reviews. Infact if you recall I posted the one ESB review here in the forums. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bigbarada
09-26-2002, 12:51 AM
Yeah, I remember that, it's just that Time, Newsweek and People are pretty much the reviews to read for most movies. And all three of them pretty much panned both Ep1 and 2.

I don't necessarily think that, in order to enjoy the prequels, you have to trash the OT. I love the prequels, but I still feel that ANH and ESB are better films than the other three. That has no bearing however on which is my favorite. As anyone who has read my posts for long enough will know, my favorite changes almost daily.:)

2-1B
09-26-2002, 01:08 AM
stillakid, you've confused me for quite some time now - you've stated before and now here in this thread that TPM was "soooooo" close to being a good movie, and that he "just missed the mark."
However, the prequels have "major flaws" and "introduced significant contradictory elements."

But if a movie (or two movies) is so flawed and so damaging to a series, how can it be "soooo" close to being good? :confused:

Your criticisms of these films do indeed give the impression that you find major flaws in them, so I don't know how you can say they are "soooo" close to being good. :confused:

:)

stillakid
09-27-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
stillakid, you've confused me for quite some time now - you've stated before and now here in this thread that TPM was "soooooo" close to being a good movie, and that he "just missed the mark."
However, the prequels have "major flaws" and "introduced significant contradictory elements."

But if a movie (or two movies) is so flawed and so damaging to a series, how can it be "soooo" close to being good? :confused:

Your criticisms of these films do indeed give the impression that you find major flaws in them, so I don't know how you can say they are "soooo" close to being good. :confused:

:)

I was waiting for someone to ask me about that. :) It seems quite contradictory :eek:, especially from me.

The quick and dirty answer is that if he removed the flaws and contradictions, he'd have a decent movie. :D

However, that doesn't really answer the question very well. Without sitting down with you and going through the script scene by scene (line by line, in some cases), it's hard to explain, suffice it to say that the basic foundation of a story well told is there, but some very easy to alter elements were thrown in haphazardly at various points along the way. It wouldn't take a whole lot of effort to polish TPM (and AOTC for that matter) into the kind of storytelling that we grew accustomed to in the OT.

Because I can't walk away from this without giving at least one specific instance, I'll use the following:

Part I: The story element
For unknown reasons, GL dropped the Midichlorian element into the saga. Perhaps it was to help give scientific explanation to the Force or something else. We don't really know without sitting George down to ask him about it. However, what it did do, whether he intended it this way or not, was to give a concrete story explanation to Qui Gon (and more importantly, to the audience) that Anakin had Force potential. That seems to be the primary story-"consequence" of that particular element. Before I go any further, can we agree on that? If not, then everything that follows is for naught.

Part II: The problem with Midichlorians
1. It's a lazy writer's trick. Instead of showing the audience (and Qui Gon, who represents the audience) that Anakin has Force potential, the characters are made to merely tell us. Filmmaking is an inherently visual medium and is best utilized by illustrating through images a story point. Take your favorite films and turn the sound down. If you can tell what each scene is trying to convey without the crutch of dialogue, it can be considered a well written, blocked, and photographed story. TPM relies far too much on dialogue to drive the story forward when actions would do far better. So when Qui Gon gets a Midichlorian count on Anakin and tells us that the boy is special, we have only his word to go on and no real proof that we ourselves can see.

2. If visualization was the only problem, then it wouldn't be so bad. A little like tv, but not unwatchable. However, with 3 films already laying the groundwork for what the story is about and how "things" work, introducing an element like Midichlorians disrupts the established foundation. Luke Skywalker was presented as an average farmboy, someone that humans on planet Earth could empathize with. That statement is vitally important. Most really good stories have characters that the audience can truly relate to. We've been through all this before, as Jar Jar says, ad infinitum, but since you asked. :) It's the Batman vs Superman conundrum. "We" can never be Superman, no matter how hard we try. He has superpowers beyond our reach. Batman is more accessible. He has money for sure and really good muscles and fighting techniques. Not easy to attain, but certainly attainable for nearly anyone (if they wanted it bad enough). When ANH was released in 1977, the Luke we grew to like was Batman. Ordinary kid who grows up to conquer the Universe beyond all odds. The new supercharged Midichlorian Luke, has an advantage that "we" can never have, no matter how hard we try. So, while not necessarily a direct "contradiction" in terms, the addition of Midichlorians alters this saga from something universally appealing to something more, well, nerdy, like Dungeons and Dragons. Instead of relying on internal fortitude and perserverence, the characters now have the crutch of tiny helpers akin to the magic crystals in countless fantasy genre stories. Now you might argue that the Force is an element in the same vein. While that might be true, the difference is that the characters in this story don't (or didn't) need a special "key" to access it. Anybody could do it. Just as with athletic ability or mathematical or what have you, it might have been more difficult for some, but anybody could do it. Now, with the necessity of a "key" (Midichlorians or magic crystals or magic jewlery), only the truly "blessed" can attain this "superpower."

Part III: The fix.
Easily done. Drop the Midi references. When Qui Gon (actually Obi Wan should do this, but that's a different issue :) ) and Co. go to Anakin's cabana, he shows everybody his droid in progress. Anyone with kids knows that they can get pretty excited, especially when showing off something that they've created on their own. So in his haste, he realizes that the eye is missing. Without looking he reaches behind him for a tool on the workbench. It is just an inch or so away, but out of reach all the same. The tool slides into Anakin's hand! No one notices, except Qui Gon. It's so fast that even the audience might miss it...but we don't and neither does the Jedi master. Anakin doesn't even realize it. With that simple action we learn everything we need to know about Anakin's Force potential far more effectively and efficiently than before.


I hope that answers the question about why I consider TPM (and AOTC for that matter) to be sooooo close, but not quite there. The above is just one example. Some other changes aren't quite so "severe," but you can see that even that isn't so much a change really. But even that slight alteration has significant impact across the film itself as well as for the rest of the saga. I think that that's what George forgot about. His ability to see beyond the immediate gratification for what a scene, character, or piece of dialogue will do is gone. Domino's are small and seemingly insignificant, but drop one and the rest will fall. Have a character utter a "throw away" line and the ripples may emanate across that story pond in ways that you might never have anticipated.

bigbarada
09-27-2002, 02:57 PM
From what I understand, the fact that GL didn't have total control over ANH and ESB might be a major contributor to why they turned out the way they did. Look at the three films thus far that GL has had total creative control over (ROTJ, TPM, AOTC) they are all very similar in style and pacing. So I don't think it was that GL necessarily changed over the years. I think the fact that he had so little control over ANH and ESB is what made them so revolutionary.

The Overlord Returns
09-27-2002, 03:28 PM
How did he have so little control over ANH? He wrote and directed it, did he not?

bigbarada
09-27-2002, 03:48 PM
Gloria Katz and Willard Hyuck co-wrote the script with Lucas, and surprisingly these two contributed most of the classic back and forth banter between the main characters. On top of that, Lucas had to constantly answer to the studio and when he showed them his rough cut of the film, they were ready to take the movie out of his control, slap it together and rush it theaters to try and salvage what little money they could from it. Needless to say, they all hated it and it took much begging from Lucas to retain control of the film with the promise that he would make things better.

It was that level of pressure on Lucas that, I believe, forced him to pour his all into the film and what made it as brilliant as it is.

The Overlord Returns
09-27-2002, 03:54 PM
still......I'd say thats still "his" movie....more so than ESB or ROTJ...


I also think it's one of the weakest in the saga.

stillakid
09-27-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


It was that level of pressure on Lucas that, I believe, forced him to pour his all into the film and what made it as brilliant as it is.

I've always felt that an artist's best work (whatever kind of art there is) comes under some kind of diress. Whenever "the world" is available to "him," and the obstacles are removed, the "art" loses something.


I finally got around to watching Searching For Bobby Fischer and was struck by something the little boy says. As his father is pushing him to continue, in a quiet little voice he utters, "Maybe it's better not to be the best. Then you can lose and it's okay."

It's difficult for anyone to continually "top" themselves or even stay consistent, for that matter. After the rumblings over ROTJ, I don't think anyone really expected to see something with the depth of character and inventiveness that was witnessed with ANH, but there was a general sense of dismay with TPM. I think that people were asking themselves "what happened to the Star Wars that we fell in love with?" It's not a carbon-copy that "we" were asking for...certainly not. It was a well-told story that we hoped to see. That's all. Nothing else.

bigbarada
09-28-2002, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
still......I'd say thats still "his" movie....more so than ESB or ROTJ...


I also think it's one of the weakest in the saga.

It's all just a matter of opinion which movie is best and which is worst. Personally I think ANH is the best movie, my favorite of the saga changes with the wind, but if not for ANH I don't think I would even be a Star Wars fan today.

My first viewing of ANH was in 1983, during it's airing on CBS and I was totally blown away by it. When I watched ESB and ROTJ three years later on VHS, I was a little disappointed by both of them.

TPM was the first Star Wars film that I watched in the theater first. A half hour into my first viewing, I felt that something had gone terribly wrong, the movie was terrible, fortunately it redeemed itself once Anakin came into the picture. Overall I thought it was good but felt it tried to copy ANH too much, which I learned later on was the whole point. I'm still not sure I am sold on GLs reasons for that, though. Sometimes I feel that he is just running out of ideas, if anybody knew just how much of AOTC's story was taken from the original drafts of ESB.... I'm starting to think that we can learn most of the plot to Ep3 just by looking through the initial drafts of ROTJ.

AOTC was wonderful upon my first viewing, especially the Geonosis Battle and Yoda's fight. After a few viewings though, some scenes started to grate on my nerves.

No matter how many times I have seen it, I can't think of a single scene from ANH that annoys me in any way (pre-special edition that is).

stillakid
09-28-2002, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


Overall I thought it was good but felt it tried to copy ANH too much, which I learned later on was the whole point. I'm still not sure I am sold on GLs reasons for that, though.

I feel like I've heard that someplace, but I can't remember where. Could you elaborate please? Thanks!

mini-rock
09-28-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


I feel like I've heard that someplace, but I can't remember where.

Lucas kinda mentions this in "The Beggining". :)

JediTricks
09-28-2002, 05:40 PM
Ok, this thread is off the rails. I'm not sure it should be back on track myself, so unless you can convince the mod staff here that this isn't just a breeding ground for bickering, it's gonna be closed since it adds little or nothing to the classic trilogy discussion forum.

stillakid
09-28-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Ok, this thread is off the rails. I'm not sure it should be back on track myself, so unless you can convince the mod staff here that this isn't just a breeding ground for bickering, it's gonna be closed since it adds little or nothing to the classic trilogy discussion forum.

Of course it's a breeding ground for bickering! :) Someone makes an assertion and someone else disputes it. That's what discussion is all about...isn't it?

I asked for examples of what makes the OT a bad trilogy in the same vein as the Prequels. As there is no forum or area in which to specifically talk about the entire saga at the same time, which is what this thread is really about, then there is no justification for shutting it down. If that's the issue, then I'll put in an official request for a "Saga" forum area that isn't so episode specific. Then you could transfer this over to that one.

But you are right. There are very few examples of plot atrocities being offered from the OT. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

2-1B
09-28-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
But you are right. There are very few examples of plot atrocities being offered from the OT. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

a) because most people don't think there are plot atrocities in the OT. I don't, but that certainly does not "prove" your point that the OT is so crisp compared to the PT. You seem to be operating (as usual) on the "fact" that the PT is riddled with these plot atrocities, personally I myself disagree with most of those issues you raised -
so to think that a "Prequel Defender" like myself has to show flaws in the OT is quite ignorant. That only goes to the divisiveness you raise in the thread title.

b) JJB is the only person I can recall who said you were too young to see the flaws in the OT. I agree there has not been any examples to prove that point, but perhaps it should be taken up in a private discussion with JJB since there aren't really any other people in this thread who are telling you that the OT's "flaws" were invisible to you as a kid.

mini-rock
09-28-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
But you are right. There are very few examples of plot atrocities being offered from the OT. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Just as there are few offered from the prequel trilogy as well. :rolleyes: .

stillakid
09-28-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


a) because most people don't think there are plot atrocities in the OT. I don't, but that certainly does not "prove" your point that the OT is so crisp compared to the PT. You seem to be operating (as usual) on the "fact" that the PT is riddled with these plot atrocities, personally I myself disagree with most of those issues you raised -
so to think that a "Prequel Defender" like myself has to show flaws in the OT is quite ignorant. That only goes to the divisiveness you raise in the thread title.

b) JJB is the only person I can recall who said you were too young to see the flaws in the OT. I agree there has not been any examples to prove that point, but perhaps it should be taken up in a private discussion with JJB since there aren't really any other people in this thread who are telling you that the OT's "flaws" were invisible to you as a kid.

You're absolutely correct! :) Where is that Jar Jar fellow anyway?

It's his exact statement this time and before that got me thinking about what might be wrong with the OT. While I do think that it does not contain large errors, it's still interesting to hear about any of the "minor" glitches that others have noticed.

In regards to the Prequels, I had no true interest in retreading old ground. We've all made our points, disagreed with one another, and moved on. What else can you do? :)


PS: I don't know if it means anything at all, but I just noticed the "view" count on this thread. Lots of interest apparently. Curiosity anyhow. What's it all mean?:confused:

stillakid
09-28-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock


Just as there are few offered from the prequel trilogy as well. :rolleyes: .


Umm, that isn't the point of this particular thread now is it.:rolleyes: There are pages upon pages of documentation which answer you query above. Use the search function to find any number of issues that were brought up in the past.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

stillakid
09-28-2002, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


a) because most people don't think there are plot atrocities in the OT. I don't, but that certainly does not "prove" your point that the OT is so crisp compared to the PT. You seem to be operating (as usual) on the "fact" that the PT is riddled with these plot atrocities, personally I myself disagree with most of those issues you raised -
so to think that a "Prequel Defender" like myself has to show flaws in the OT is quite ignorant. That only goes to the divisiveness you raise in the thread title.


But specifically, you got me thinking. I'm to assume that you don't agree to this::confused:


Part I: The story element
For unknown reasons, GL dropped the Midichlorian element into the saga. Perhaps it was to help give scientific explanation to the Force or something else. We don't really know without sitting George down to ask him about it. However, what it did do, whether he intended it this way or not, was to give a concrete story explanation to Qui Gon (and more importantly, to the audience) that Anakin had Force potential. That seems to be the primary story-"consequence" of that particular element. Before I go any further, can we agree on that? If not, then everything that follows is for naught.


How come?:confused: Perhaps the foundation of my "belief" ;) is erred. I welcome information on why. :)


And also, I'm curious as to your feeling toward my "opinions." You seem to be taking this a bit personally as if it were a specific "insult" leveled upon you. I assure you that that isn't the case. Although if indeed you or anyone else feel that way, I invite you to look at it from my perspective for a moment. In the same way a "prequel defender" might feel slighted by hearing critique of those films, I certainly feel the same when clearly defined insults are leveled against me and other "OT worshipers" because we are 1)stubborn 2)ignorant 3)egotistical 4)close-minded etc etc etc. just because we don't see the prequels as rosy cinematic masterpieces. I truly don't get the double standard. :confused: I could just as easily raise the opposite to this statement...


...seem to be operating (as usual) on the "fact" that the PT is riddled with these plot atrocities,...

...and say that "you" seem to operating (as usual) on the "fact" that the PT is not riddled with these plot atrocities...and throw in one of those little ":rolleyes:" smilies that we use to be, well, condescending without using words.

Both statements are equal in their condescending nature. I see the so-called "atrocities," therefore they exist...to me. I posed the questions, received rebuttals that did not satisfy the concerns I had, so I have kept my original assertions intact. So why shouldn't I present my arguments as "factual" as you do from your "side"? :confused:

2-1B
09-28-2002, 10:25 PM
1. Because I don't present my arguments as factual. That's the problem. Take AOTC for example. I loved it, and that's the only matter of fact involved here. If I tell you it's awesome because I love the storyline and the characters, I'm just stating it as my opinion.

Ask Jargo, he'll crack wise about Hayden's performance. If I tell him it's a fact that Hayden did a good job, he'll laugh me right off the page. :D The only fact involved is that I loved the performance, not that the performance was good.

2. I take none of this personally, and as a "prequel defender" I take none of your opinions as insulting. If anything is insulting, it would be the way you level your criticisms as fact. Another reason why many people don't care to discuss these issues with ya. ;)

3. IN MY OPINION, the prequels are not laden with plot atrocities. You think they are. Great, grand, wonderful. But I'm not going to run around challenging others to prove to me why they are. I'm not going to talk about how I "must be right" because people can't illustrate to me why it is riddled with problems. I certainly am open to others' opinions but not in the interest of being swayed one way or the other. It's not a contest, I am confident enough in my opinions that I need no confirmation form others that I am "right."

4. That Qui-gon issue - I've considered your views, and kindly disagree. "Sit Lucas down?" I already did - you can sit around your TV with him on the TPM DVD. He'll talk about how he wanted the midichlorians to show the physical and scientific aspect of the Force.

Give Qui-Gon concrete knowledge of Ani's potential?
Not necessarily, there are earlier points in the film that show he knows Ani is special. It wasn't an EXPLANATION, rather confirmation of what he already believed. Regardless, yes it does seem to be the primary consequence. So?
I know you don't like it, and think it's a bad storytelling device.
I don't dislike it, and no amount of SreenWriting 101 will convince me otherwise.

5) I'm not a part of this double standard you refer to, so I can't comment other than to say it's wrong if people levy such attacks.




originally posted by JediTricks
Ok, this thread is off the rails. I'm not sure it should be back on track myself, so unless you can convince the mod staff here that this isn't just a breeding ground for bickering, it's gonna be closed since it adds little or nothing to the classic trilogy discussion forum.

Where were you with this post when everybody was bickering about the existence of your CellBlock ? :confused:
People crying in public and attacking others somehow added to the Gen Disc forum ? :confused:

mini-rock
09-28-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
There are pages upon pages of documentation which answer you query above. Use the search function to find any number of issues that were brought up in the past.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Uhh, what you quoted from my post wasn't a question (thats why there is no ?). I think you are a little :confused:.

bigbarada
09-28-2002, 11:37 PM
Yeah, no reason to close this thread.

I remember as a kid, I was much more critical of the storylines to the films than I am now. I thought it was stupid how convenient everything seemed to be in ANH. How the droids just happened to land near Luke's house, and how the Tusken Raider picked that day to go easy on Luke (where were all the bruises and blood when Luke's body was dragged up to the Landspeeder?). I thought it was stupid how the Tuskens got scared over some old guy in a robe screaming at the top of his lungs. And on and on, don't even get me started on ESB and ROTJ.

As I got older, I began to appreciate the story more and criticize it less. Even now though, just because a movie has flaws doesn't mean I have to hate it. Every one of the Star Wars films is as flawed as it is incredible.

The way I see it, it is the easiest thing in the world to criticize and tear apart someone else's work. What takes more intelligence and maturity is the ability to look beyond the flaws that every movie has and to enjoy it for what it is.

stillakid
09-29-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
1. Because I don't present my arguments as factual. That's the problem. Take AOTC for example. I loved it, and that's the only matter of fact involved here. If I tell you it's awesome because I love the storyline and the characters, I'm just stating it as my opinion.

Ask Jargo, he'll crack wise about Hayden's performance. If I tell him it's a fact that Hayden did a good job, he'll laugh me right off the page. The only fact involved is that I loved the performance, not that the performance was good.

2. I take none of this personally, and as a "prequel defender" I take none of your opinions as insulting. If anything is insulting, it would be the way you level your criticisms as fact. Another reason why many people don't care to discuss these issues with ya.

3. IN MY OPINION, the prequels are not laden with plot atrocities. You think they are. Great, grand, wonderful. But I'm not going to run around challenging others to prove to me why they are. I'm not going to talk about how I "must be right" because people can't illustrate to me why it is riddled with problems. I certainly am open to others' opinions but not in the interest of being swayed one way or the other. It's not a contest, I am confident enough in my opinions that I need no confirmation form others that I am "right."

4. That Qui-gon issue - I've considered your views, and kindly disagree. "Sit Lucas down?" I already did - you can sit around your TV with him on the TPM DVD. He'll talk about how he wanted the midichlorians to show the physical and scientific aspect of the Force.

Give Qui-Gon concrete knowledge of Ani's potential?
Not necessarily, there are earlier points in the film that show he knows Ani is special. It wasn't an EXPLANATION, rather confirmation of what he already believed. Regardless, yes it does seem to be the primary consequence. So?
I know you don't like it, and think it's a bad storytelling device.
I don't dislike it, and no amount of SreenWriting 101 will convince me otherwise.

5) I'm not a part of this double standard you refer to, so I can't comment other than to say it's wrong if people levy such attacks.



Hmm...I've got specific "replies" to all of that, but instead...

Well, after putting some thought into that and what BB says below, I think that my intentions have been ENTIRELY misunderstood. I'm not trying to a)prove that I'm right or b)trying to make everyone else dislike anything. If I've learned just one thing in my short 33 years, it's that you can't change anyone's mind. It's one thing if they're on the fence and really don't know, but once somebody has their heart set on something, that's it. "You guys" love the Prequels. Nothing I or anyone else says will ever change that...and nobody is trying either.

However, what I am trying to do is a)receive justification for why the Prequels could indeed be considered well executed and b)find a way to indeed enjoy them for what they are.

The results of such efforts have been dismal for a couple reasons. The first is that none of the "explanations" that apparently were meant to sway my own views of what occurred on screen were adequate...for me. While I truly understand each and every "explanation," from why Qui Gon is valid and how Midi's are allowed into the story to why Yoda may not have been Obi's only teacher, I feel (felt) that it took a considerable amount of "reaching" to make it all work. For me, a well written story doesn't require such elaborate measures to make sense. If that's what is considered Screenwriting 101, then so be it. It's easy to slap condescending labels on something when you're not interested in hearing negatives. I can't help that. The issues still exist...for me. I'm not asking anyone to dislike anything because I do, but there is virtually no acceptance whatsoever from anyone here for negative "opinions" about these films, save for minor teenie tiny "fun" things to talk about.

Also, I was under the impression that people wished to talk about things other than the superficial, but instead all that I get is naysaying when it comes to discussing the finer points of the story. You're right, nobody is really interested. It's escapism, it's a fun time and I guess I must be 110% wrong in every negative comment I've ever made about the films. After all, there is no such thing as truth when it comes to art, is there? It's impossible for a story to be written poorly, for if just one person alive finds it to be enjoyable, then it must be just as wonderful as the greatest tomes ever conceived. Right? :confused:

Despite what you say, your (or anyone's, I don't mean to be so specific towards anyone) "opinion" is stated as just as much as a "fact" as mine. I make an assertion that there are problems with the film. "You" make an assertion that there aren't. What's the difference?:confused: My "fact" vs. yours. Why am I being persecuted for stating my point of view and everyone else, particularly on the "there's-nothing-wrong-with-the-Prequel's" side, gets off scotfree? The double-standard at work here is so massive that it's almost impossible to see until you step way back to look at the big picture. But maybe that's the inherent nature of a "Fan" site. Like it or get out. Right?




Originally posted by bigbarada
Yeah, no reason to close this thread.

I remember as a kid, I was much more critical of the storylines to the films than I am now. I thought it was stupid how convenient everything seemed to be in ANH. How the droids just happened to land near Luke's house, and how the Tusken Raider picked that day to go easy on Luke (where were all the bruises and blood when Luke's body was dragged up to the Landspeeder?). I thought it was stupid how the Tuskens got scared over some old guy in a robe screaming at the top of his lungs. And on and on, don't even get me started on ESB and ROTJ.

As I got older, I began to appreciate the story more and criticize it less. Even now though, just because a movie has flaws doesn't mean I have to hate it. Every one of the Star Wars films is as flawed as it is incredible.

The way I see it, it is the easiest thing in the world to criticize and tear apart someone else's work. What takes more intelligence and maturity is the ability to look beyond the flaws that [b]every movie has and to enjoy it for what it is.

Hmm? I do like the sound of that. I'll work on it. :)

And thank you for continuing with examples from the films. :) I've had to spend an inordinate and unfair amount of time defending the simple and innocent purpose of this thread, as well as my own intentions on the whole. I never thought about the bruises and such on Tatooine. If we could categorize those types of "mistakes," that one could go into "personal injury" along with why armored Stormtroopers are killed so easily by teddy bears with bows and arrows. :)

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 03:17 AM
There are other mistakes that no one ever seems to notice:

The Incredible Shrinking Blasters!: When the Sandtroopers are approaching Docking Bay 94 they are mostly carrying long rifles and one looks to be carrying a bazooka. However, when they turn the corner, they are all carrying the standard Imperial blasters.

The "almost in range" of the TIE Fighter to the Millenium Falcon (when they still think the Death Star is a small moon) looks to be close enough to peg the fighter with a rock.

When Ben is prowling around in the Death Star, we see the same blue astromech, with white highlights, in the background in two shots.

Finally did anyone ever notice that Leia fondles her breasts while Han and Luke are getting out of their Stormtrooper gear after getting out of the Trash Compactor? Well, if nothing would convince you to pop ANH in the VCR one more time, I figured that last earth-shattering revelation would.:D:D

2-1B
09-29-2002, 12:02 PM
stillakid is being persecuted ? :p

Like it or get out. Right?
What are you talking about ? Look around and tell me how many times people have complained on this site about Ani in TPM, Jar Jar Binks, Natalie Portman, the love story of AOTC, and many other things . . . or will you still operate as a victim and claim to be one of the only people who raise criticisms?

For the record, there are several things I don't like about the prequels and the OT. Yes, those are my opinions and I do NOT present them as factual.


I make an assertion that there are problems with the film. "You" make an assertion that there aren't.

When you tell people that it's okay for them to like the prequels 'even though there are obvious problems' then that's where the condescending part comes in.

But I've had this discussion with you before and I'm tired of pointing it out again. :)

JediTricks
09-29-2002, 05:29 PM
Caesar, I left that to SirSteve to deal with since I was being accused of impropriety. Nobody PMed me and asked me to say something or to close it, Steve had already posted in there so he knew the score. Plus, that is a section for general discussion, this is a section for classic trilogy discussion.


Originally posted by stillakid
Of course it's a breeding ground for bickering! :) Someone makes an assertion and someone else disputes it. That's what discussion is all about...isn't it?No, that's not what a discussion is all about - even if it was though, that's not what's happening here. This is just a whizzing contest between perceived "prequel-lovers" and perceived "prequel-haters" - and more to the point, it's become a discussion not about the classic trilogy, but entirely about the prequels. I'm sick of seeing any group singled out because of their opinions on this board, let it go.

There's almost no discussion of what this thread was started as, all I see are arguments based on personalities and personal opinions, and that's wasteful and not what this discussion forum is about, discuss the issues, not the people discussing them. So you have until tomorrow to either get it back on track or have it shut down.

stillakid
09-29-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Caesar, I left that to SirSteve to deal with since I was being accused of impropriety. Nobody PMed me and asked me to say something or to close it, Steve had already posted in there so he knew the score. Plus, that is a section for general discussion, this is a section for classic trilogy discussion.

No, that's not what a discussion is all about - even if it was though, that's not what's happening here. This is just a whizzing contest between perceived "prequel-lovers" and perceived "prequel-haters" - and more to the point, it's become a discussion not about the classic trilogy, but entirely about the prequels. I'm sick of seeing any group singled out because of their opinions on this board, let it go.

There's almost no discussion of what this thread was started as, all I see are arguments based on personalities and personal opinions, and that's wasteful and not what this discussion forum is about, discuss the issues, not the people discussing them. So you have until tomorrow to either get it back on track or have it shut down.


Hmm...

The general section is for discussing the Saga as a whole? I didn't get the memo.

The title of the thread is indeed about the people involved and that is indeed the issue. I've personalized many of my comments (toward myself) because a) I hate speaking for others and b) many of the comments are directed right at me. I am very aware that others, including JT, have issues with the Prequels and many of the comments I've mentioned aren't just directed toward me.

I didn't create the divisiveness on the board. I'm just bringing it out in the open to talk about. As Caesar so wisely mentioned, it was Jar Jar who suggested that the OT was essentially laden with problems that we were too young to notice. He hasn't come back to elaborate. I will assume by the absence of his "proof," that a) there isn't any, and b) that he misspoke and believes the Prequels to not have major problems. I was kind of waiting for him to admit to that, but I suppose he won't. In any case, the die was cast that "complainers" were full of it and that the Prequels were pristine (or at least not worthy of the amount of criticism laid upon them.)

As such, to discuss this issue as a whole, inevitably there is going to be talk specific to the Prequels and talk specific to the other films and talk specific to individual tastes and points-of-view. If a topic of such "personal" nature is unwelcome on these forums, then don't bandy words and erase this whole thing from existence right now. I'll gather by that action that SSG is only for the frivolous and I'd expect to see similar demands laid upon the Death Penalty thread soon after.



BB,
I did not see the grope, but will look for it next time.

While I appreciate your efforts, I will probably begin a different thread which is distinctly specific to that topic. Management is clearly on edge over this discussion. :)

Beast
09-29-2002, 07:32 PM
I haven't come back to discuss it with you, because it's a lost cause. I'm sick and tired of the discussion of the topic, and will no longer debate, discuss, or argue the merits or flaws of any of the films with you. It's alot more enjoyable for me to beat my skull against a brick wall then discuss this any longer. Thank you for playing.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
09-29-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
stillakid is being persecuted ? :p
Umm, yeah?


Originally posted by Caesar

What are you talking about ? Look around and tell me how many times people have complained on this site about Ani in TPM, Jar Jar Binks, Natalie Portman, the love story of AOTC, and many other things . . . or will you still operate as a victim and claim to be one of the only people who raise criticisms?
No, I'm not the only one, but for the sake of simplification I used myself as an example. :) That and I don't like speaking for others. They too are victims as much as I. But my moniker has a target written all over it, because...


Originally posted by Caesar

For the record, there are several things I don't like about the prequels and the OT. Yes, those are my opinions and I do NOT present them as factual.
You don't think that those who argu against my opinions aren't presenting theirs as factual? :eek: How many different ways do I have to say it? You (and others) don't agree with my (and others) conclusions and criticisms and maintain your own stance regarding plot and other issues? I'm shaking my head here. I truly don't get it, the double standard. But maybe the following is why you see it this way...


Originally posted by Caesar

When you tell people that it's okay for them to like the prequels 'even though there are obvious problems' then that's where the condescending part comes in.
How else should I say that? If I believe that there are problems, then would you feel better if I said nothing at all, yet thought it to myself? Is this an issue of tact or something? A lot of people would rather surround themselves with "friends" who don't tell them what's on their mind. I'm not like that. I'm not into just telling people what they want to hear. It's not fair to anyone to do that. But your taking that above statement to mean that I'm presenting my arguments as fact, yet your's aren't being presented as fact, then that's ridiculous. Of course I'm presenting it as fact. I believe it for cryin' out loud, just as you believe your point of view and present it as such. I really don't get this at all. :confused:


Originally posted by Caesar

But I've had this discussion with you before and I'm tired of pointing it out again. :)
Your side of this discussion is the most condescending part of this whole thing, especially this last statement. Classic "parent" to "child" statement. I can almost see the smug look from way over here. You've artifically placed yourself above the fray and essentially called me egotistical. That may be true, that I'm a stubborn egotist :), I'll be the first to admit it, but anyone who hasn't seen fit to consider my (and others) "opinions" regarding the problems in the films is just as guilty of presenting their own point of view as fact. Thus rendering your condescending tone towards me as highly innappropriate and not just a bit hypocritical.

Ergo, OT worship vs Prequel Defenders. :) I just wanted to talk about the stories, but instead all I got was insults and grief.

stillakid
09-29-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I haven't come back to discuss it with you, because it's a lost cause. I'm sick and tired of the discussion of the topic, and will no longer debate, discuss, or argue the merits or flaws of any of the films with you. It's alot more enjoyable for me to beat my skull against a brick wall then discuss this any longer. Thank you for playing.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

You made a statement and never backed it up. That's all I wanted. Refuse to if you'd like. That's your choice. :)

Beast
09-29-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Ergo, OT worship vs Prequel Defenders. :) I just wanted to talk about the stories, but instead all I got was insults and grief.
If that's all you wanted, you wouldn't have titled the thread in such a blatant manner as to actually invite a fight. "Original Trilogy Worship vs. Prequel Defenders" sounds like the title card for a wrestling match. Ergo, you enjoy causing people to fight, so you made damn sure to title the thread in a way that would elicit them. Way to go, as usual. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Wolfwood319
09-29-2002, 08:08 PM
Well, I see these boards are in the exact same state when I left. Stillakid still trying to "prove" why the Prequels are "bad" movies. Seriously, this is getting pathetic.

If someone can't deal with the fact that people out there enjoy the prequels, then I think they should get some help. Star Wars should be the least of their problems.

Beast
09-29-2002, 08:14 PM
Hey Wolfwood319, long time no see. Yes, it's the same rehashed arguments over Qui-Gon, Midiclorians, etc. that are typical Stillakid "proof" of how "bad" the prequels are. Going by his logic, since Yoda isn't mentioned in ANH, he shouldn't have been in ESB or ROTJ. And the Emperor shouldn't be a force user. :rolleyes: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
09-29-2002, 08:43 PM
You don't think that those who argu against my opinions aren't presenting theirs as factual? How many different ways do I have to say it? You (and others) don't agree with my (and others) conclusions and criticisms and maintain your own stance regarding plot and other issues? I'm shaking my head here. I truly don't get it, the double standard. But maybe the following is why you see it this way...

Keep shakin' your head, because there is no double standard. How many times have I disagreed with JT, for example?
PLENTY, and that's fine - he doesn't run around in here like his opinions on the films are fact. He calls AOTC "flavorless mush", but I think it's pretty tasty. That's fine, we can all disagree.
I don't beat him about the head regarding how "wrong" he is though. ;) I see we'll be rehashing this topic AGAIN in the next paragraphs . . .


How else should I say that? If I believe that there are problems, then would you feel better if I said nothing at all, yet thought it to myself? Is this an issue of tact or something? A lot of people would rather surround themselves with "friends" who don't tell them what's on their mind. I'm not like that. I'm not into just telling people what they want to hear. It's not fair to anyone to do that. But your taking that above statement to mean that I'm presenting my arguments as fact, yet your's aren't being presented as fact, then that's ridiculous. Of course I'm presenting it as fact. I believe it for cryin' out loud, just as you believe your point of view and present it as such. I really don't get this at all.


Your not as sneaky as you believe. ;) What do mean, "would I rather you not say anything at all" ? ? ? Am I to believe that in the . . . COUNTLESS . . . times that I've supported diversity in opinion that now I wouldn't want you to post your opinions?
That's ridiculous, how many times do I have to say it? :stupid:

"Telling people want they want to hear" ? ? ? You're not the only person on here that raises differing views, rest assured. However, you DO seem to be the only one to draw ire from the crowd. Why is that? Tact, as you suggest? Probably ! :D
See Wolfwood's post about that above. ;)

No, for god's sake, I am not presenting my arguments as fact ! ! ! :crazed: If you really still don't get it, I don't know how else to explain it . . .


Your side of this discussion is the most condescending part of this whole thing, especially this last statement. Classic "parent" to "child" statement. I can almost see the smug look from way over here. You've artifically placed yourself above the fray and essentially called me egotistical. That may be true, that I'm a stubborn egotist , I'll be the first to admit it, but anyone who hasn't seen fit to consider my (and others) "opinions" regarding the problems in the films is just as guilty of presenting their own point of view as fact. Thus rendering your condescending tone towards me as highly innappropriate and not just a bit hypocritical.

No, I'm not being condescending. Parent to child ? That's how some people feel when you tell them to enjoy something in light of the obvious problems. Me, smug ? ;) I assure you it's more of a :cry: look, as I can't believe I get into these fracases seemingly every time. Many people gave up discussing this stuff with you long ago, I'm not sure why I haven't followed suit . . .
Maybe it's because I do like to share my views with others. Maybe because I do appreciate others' insights.

But ya know what? After reading your complaints about others not considering your opinions, I'm done with it. I've gone to great length to show respect to your views and respond with interest, but this is going nowhere.

Think about it - the majority of these people who you claim have victimized you with their narrow mindedness
ARE NOT EVEN HERE.
But I am. A few others are. And it's damn irritating of you to keep dragging these generalizations into your posts.
Jeez, if I try to discuss something, why can't you address those points without the generalization of "blah blah blah I'm a victim of narrowmindedness blah blah blah people aren't willing to listen to my POV blah blah blah."

Hey, here's a clue - when you deal with this part of your audience, address the issues at hand. If I tell you I think the midichlorians work in the storyline, go ahead and ask me why. Tell me why you disagree. But DON'T drag in some past wrongs done to you by others and make me work through and around it. I'm done with it. Goodbye.



Hey there Wolfy, how are ya ? :)

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 10:34 PM
Personally I think the midichlorians were a good idea.:p

To try and salvage this thread before it gets the ax tomorrow, I remember you (meaning stillakid) making a comment about how the end sequence to Ep1 was a rip off of Dinotopia. Well, we have already discussed the excessive similarities of ANH to Kirosawa's The Hidden Fortress; but there are other elements from the OT that are so obviously "borrowed":

Threepio reference to the Spice Mines of Kessel. Clearly a knock off of Dune.

Captian Needa's comment about a cloaking device is very Star Trekky. Along with the Stormtroopers setting their weapons for "stun."

Ben Kenobi is sooooo much like Gandalf from Lord of the Rings it is not even funny.

On top of all that, shouldn't Yoda be living in the North Pole making toys for little children?;)

:D:D:D

stillakid
09-29-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Keep shakin' your head, because there is no double standard. How many times have I disagreed with JT, for example?
PLENTY, and that's fine - he doesn't run around in here like his opinions on the films are fact. He calls AOTC "flavorless mush", but I think it's pretty tasty. That's fine, we can all disagree.
I don't beat him about the head regarding how "wrong" he is though. ;) I see we'll be rehashing this topic AGAIN in the next paragraphs . . .



Your not as sneaky as you believe. ;) What do mean, "would I rather you not say anything at all" ? ? ? Am I to believe that in the . . . COUNTLESS . . . times that I've supported diversity in opinion that now I wouldn't want you to post your opinions?
That's ridiculous, how many times do I have to say it? :stupid:

"Telling people want they want to hear" ? ? ? You're not the only person on here that raises differing views, rest assured. However, you DO seem to be the only one to draw ire from the crowd. Why is that? Tact, as you suggest? Probably ! :D
See Wolfwood's post about that above. ;)

No, for god's sake, I am not presenting my arguments as fact ! ! ! :crazed: If you really still don't get it, I don't know how else to explain it . . .



No, I'm not being condescending. Parent to child ? That's how some people feel when you tell them to enjoy something in light of the obvious problems. Me, smug ? ;) I assure you it's more of a :cry: look, as I can't believe I get into these fracases seemingly every time. Many people gave up discussing this stuff with you long ago, I'm not sure why I haven't followed suit . . .
Maybe it's because I do like to share my views with others. Maybe because I do appreciate others' insights.

But ya know what? After reading your complaints about others not considering your opinions, I'm done with it. I've gone to great length to show respect to your views and respond with interest, but this is going nowhere.

Think about it - the majority of these people who you claim have victimized you with their narrow mindedness
ARE NOT EVEN HERE.
But I am. A few others are. And it's damn irritating of you to keep dragging these generalizations into your posts.
Jeez, if I try to discuss something, why can't you address those points without the generalization of "blah blah blah I'm a victim of narrowmindedness blah blah blah people aren't willing to listen to my POV blah blah blah."

Hey, here's a clue - when you deal with this part of your audience, address the issues at hand. If I tell you I think the midichlorians work in the storyline, go ahead and ask me why. Tell me why you disagree. But DON'T drag in some past wrongs done to you by others and make me work through and around it. I'm done with it. Goodbye.



Hey there Wolfy, how are ya ? :)

Man, I don't even know where to start. LIke I said "Prequel Defenders" sticking together.

Essentially I can't win. If I answer a direct query, as you asked for above concerning midi's for example, I'm accused by someone like Jar Jar or WW of "trying to convince people that the Prequels are bad." I'm just answering a freakin' question for god's sake. If I don't answer it, then I'm accused of generalizing and not dealing with it. :crazed: This is nuts. How could I possibly win? Forget that, how could I possibly stay even? It's an impossible situation. Believe what you want, I wasn't trying to start a fight...on the contrary, I was trying to finish one that was started a long time ago with a statement resembling "you guys were too young to see the problems with the OT." But, as Jar Jar refuses to answer to it...again, then the point is dead.

So, throw on all the ridiculous accusations you want toward me if that's what makes you feel better. I can't help your preconceived notions.

Believe what you will. I enjoy hearing what other people have to say, but just because I don't always agree (as you don't with me) doesn't mean that I automatically think less of them (as opposed to the way y'all feel about me apparently). In fact, I actually like talking with most of you guys (don't mean to "generalize" Caesar ;) ) You've all blown this issue Wayyyyyy out of proportion and are skirting the edges of slander and character assassination without grounds.

I'm sorry I ever brought it up. I'll try to continue on these boards with frivolity and a cheery disposition in total agreement with true blue fans everywhere.
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)



Shut it down and delete it, JT.

2-1B
09-30-2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Man, I don't even know where to start. LIke I said "Prequel Defenders" sticking together.

Huh ? I disagree with a lot of Prequel Defenders, but since it suits your victim mentality, yes we gang up and band together. :crazed:


So, throw on all the ridiculous accusations you want toward me if that's what makes you feel better. I can't help your preconceived notions.

Feel better? On the contrary, it's quite agonizing . . . and hurtful since I was taken on a ride trying to be a friend on these forums . . . :cry:


Believe what you will. I enjoy hearing what other people have to say, but just because I don't always agree (as you don't with me) doesn't mean that I automatically think less of them (as opposed to the way y'all feel about me apparently).

If I thought so "less of you", I would have bailed looooooooooooong ago. Guess it goes to show how wrong I was . . .


In fact, I actually like talking with most of you guys (don't mean to "generalize" Caesar ;) ) You've all blown this issue Wayyyyyy out of proportion and are skirting the edges of slander and character assassination without grounds.

Blown out of proportion ? This from a guy who has to cry persecution because someone doesn't agree with him ? :rolleyes:


I'm sorry I ever brought it up. I'll try to continue on these boards with frivolity and a cheery disposition in total agreement with true blue fans everywhere.

Who even HINTED at that ? Read through the Saga forum, you'll see how cheery and uniform everyone is. :rolleyes: And AOTC too, many different disagreements there which you aren't even a part of.
Oh that's right, you're the only person who anyone disagrees with. My mistake. :cry:

rynobot
09-30-2002, 02:55 AM
What's harder, trying to defend the prequals to Orginal Triligy fans or trying to defend the EU to Non EU people?

Anywho, I love all Star Wars!!! I just saw AOTC for the 2nd time when I was in my hotel room in Atlantic City, they had it on PPV for $10.00. The movie was way better the second time I saw it, probably cause I was "" the first time. The only thing that bothered me in the movie were the Love scenes. I also realized that Darth Sidious is not Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, they have to be clones.

Why would someone criticze and nitpick something? Cause they love it!! I always seem to be criticzing the SAGA figures when I first see them on the net, but guess what? I can't wait to buy them! I criticized the Gunship cause there were no bubbles but the Gunship is still has the most value out of anything made this year.

Beast
09-30-2002, 02:59 AM
Rynobot, I suggest that you edit your comment in regards to being "hopped up on goofballs" when you saw AOTC's. You know damn well by now that you have had posts deleted for mentioning that in the past. It is NOT APPROPRIATE on a family friendly website. Thank you for your time. :rolleyes: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

rynobot
09-30-2002, 03:01 AM
thanks Jar Jar

bigbarada
09-30-2002, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by rynobot
I also realized that Darth Sidious is not Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, they have to be clones.

I'm not going to speculate if this is true or not; but let me just say: If this does in fact turn out to be true, then I will lose all faith in the prequels and George Lucas himself. What a lazy and half-arsed plot device that would be! What would even be the point of any of the movies if Palpatine is simply a clone of Sidious? Does GL just want to totally castrate his own story and remove any hint of power or impact that it might have? Can you tell that I really hate this clone Palpatine idea?:frus:

No offense to you, rynobot.

rynobot
09-30-2002, 03:26 AM
BB, why would I take offense to your comment, I didn't write the movie! I am just stating what I interrupted at the end of the movie. Sidious was on Courascant far away by himself, where as Palpatine was somewhere else watching all those ships at the end.

Also by believing they are different Lucus can suprise me if he shows they are the same!:happy:

Beast
09-30-2002, 03:32 AM
Rynobot, Sidious and Palpatine are both on Coruscant at the end of the movie. While that doesn't prove things either way, that can't really be used as proof that they are seperate people. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

rynobot
09-30-2002, 03:37 AM
Just let me think what I want Jar Jar, if I want to think that they are different I have that right. I've read so much into the two charcters and at first I was niavie like you but then I saw the light and it hit me, they are different people. If I was able to watch the movie again I would tell you more details on why, but like I said, I just saw the movie for the second time last week. :)

bigbarada
09-30-2002, 04:20 AM
You might be right, rynobot, but I really, REALLY, REALLY hope not.

I don't see any way for them to be anything but the same person. Even Ian McDiarmond believes them to be the same character.

rynobot
09-30-2002, 04:23 AM
Ah, but SW was never suppose to be this "big" anyway, let it end like it was suppose to start.

Beast
09-30-2002, 04:25 AM
George Lucas on the Phantom Menace Audio Commentary: "I chose to first reveal Darth Sidious as a Hologram, because thats how we first see him in Empire Strikes Back."

So, unless Darth Sidious kills a clone of himself that is portraying Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, and then takes that name, it doesn't fit. It's always possible, but not probable. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

rynobot
09-30-2002, 04:27 AM
yes, Jar Jar that is what I know Darth Sidious is the Emperor but Supreme Chanclellor Palpatine is just what he uses to get into power.

The Overlord Returns
09-30-2002, 11:19 AM
you must realize there is meant to be a time lag between sidious' scene with Tyrannus, and the senators watching the fleet embark?

Beast
09-30-2002, 01:09 PM
Exactly, it's dusk or so when Dooku arrives and meets Sidious. And then it appears to be dawn or early morning (who knows how many days later) when Palpatine, his aids, and a few Senators watch the CloneTroopers assembled for deployment throught the Galaxy. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

jeddah
09-30-2002, 04:38 PM
Those are the words I would use to sum up the feelings we harbour about either the OT or PT.

We all took something different from our first viewing of any SW film. Those that were around like Stillakid (SK) and I for the OT at the cinema were blown away not just by the advances in film, but the magic of the story.

I hope I'm not misrepresenting you here, SK, but I guess we went after different things after ROTJ in that you were aiming for something more plausible and faultless than everyone else, just as they were after something completely different from every other person; to use me as an example :)

Intellectually I know the sequels are inferior to the OT, but emotionally I think they stand up. I don't refer to the emotion and the intellect in the screenplay or plot and ideas, I mean inasmuch as what they evoke in my intellect and my emotions. I know I would make excuses for TPM and AOTCs if I didn't like them and that is exactly what I've done but there were sides of the film that made that astigmatism easier to live with. The photography of Amidala in Theed at the early part of the film, the Amidala senate scene, the PodRace, the Radiant # at the beginning, DMs lightsabre, imaging him naked, :evil: ;) and all sorts.

SK I liked your idea about Anakin putting threepios eye in without looking. It reminded me of that blessed little child in Poltergeist 2 who hands her Grandmother the correct balls of wool without looking. You're 110%, that would be an excellent way to introduce Force excellence in Anakin.

One phrase I heard 2 weeks ago on the RPF was "The fans have grown up but the film hasn't" and I felt somewhat comforted by that as a way to justify my acceptance of and complicitity with GLs clinkers (in all the films, as has been displayed here).

One thing I don't understand is why certain people have chosen to use this thread to attack SK and claim him as the aggressor. It is my first foray into this forum and was prompted by the 3 nicey nicey threads in GenDisc. I was drawn in by an actual interesting and adult forum which has been unfortunately littered with low-level sarcastic barbs.

I come from the country that made wit and sarcasm an artform. Some of you who think you got it down perfect are not Renaissance, but still painting by numbers and no amount of 'youf culture' proselytising can change that. I always try to remember that it's better to excel at few things than to be mediocre at many. The mediocrity in this thread has caused me (after page 4) to start skipping certain post authors. (insert disingenous smiley of choice here)

Thanks for listening

jeddah

2-1B
09-30-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by jeddah
One thing I don't understand is why certain people have chosen to use this thread to attack SK and claim him as the aggressor. It is my first foray into this forum and was prompted by the 3 nicey nicey threads in GenDisc. I was drawn in by an actual interesting and adult forum which has been unfortunately littered with low-level sarcastic barbs.

Nevermind the sarcasm and arrogance with which those threads were started. :rolleyes:


I come from the country that made wit and sarcasm an artform.

Yeah, Benny Hill is a real artiste ! ;)

Beast
09-30-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
what purpose would anyone on the planet have to just want to hate a movie so much as to spend time talking about it :confused:
Just wanted to make a comment in regard to this, first a couple quotes from Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back. :D

Holden McNeil: "The Internet is a communications tool used the world over, where people can come together and b!tch about movies and share pornography with one another."

Holden McNeil: "This is a site populated by militant movie buffs sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents basement downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing."

And one last comment: "Ain't It Cool News" The real site that the one discussed in J&SB:SB is based on. :D

Oh, and right on about Benny Hill, Caesar. That's like Canada claiming "Kids in the Hall" as proof of how good their sense of humor is. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Dar' Argol
09-30-2002, 07:23 PM
I have read this from the begining and I think I lost about 2000 brain cells . . . . . . . . .ouch.

Stillakid, I have just one question to ask of you:


Originally posted by stillakid
I wasn't trying to start a fight...on the contrary, I was trying to finish one that was started a long time ago with a statement resembling "you guys were too young to see the problems with the OT." But, as Jar Jar refuses to answer to it...again, then the point is dead.

So if you are not trying to start a fight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . they why bring that back up???? Because you know it might rile JJB up a bit and get him to make another post, which might not be the happy happy friendly type, which would then in turn cause your endless quote box posts which would disect JJB's post to your end. Which would agian cause JJB and probably someone else to post again . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . don't you see the vicious cycle???? So if you are not starting a fight, why dredge up something like that and add "the point is dead"????

I have a headache this big <--------------------------------------> and its screaming for Excedrine:D

JediTricks
09-30-2002, 08:41 PM
Stilla, this thread was no longer a discussion of any part of the classic trilogy - and it was barely a discussion. You seem to have started this thread for a specific reason, whether it's to start/continue a fight (which it certainly looks like) or to actually get feedback on the classic trilogy, it's not actually there anymore. When I was last online, this thread had 27 posts from stillakid and the next-lowest poster had 14, you had double the posts of anybody else - these forums aren't about your personality conflicts with those who don't see the prequels as you do. These forums aren't just for you, they're for everybody - this isn't a place about your ego, it's about discussion of the classic trilogy and this thread was NOWHERE near doing it when I gave my warning - that was the key, not how it was started (though I had misgivings even then), but where it ended up. Maybe if you had let THEM talk instead of sounding off all the time in the most know-it-all fashions you would have gotten more discussion about the actual topic you wanted, but clearly there was a vibe EVERYBODY got from your opening post that told them what to expect, and it wasn't a discussion about the classic trilogy.

What amazes me is that instead of steering this thread back to where you claim you wanted it, you turn it into the war I was trying to head off. Maybe you could restart this thread original concept in the future once you ever fall off your ego, but be careful because it's become quite a long fall lately. Count the number of "you"s and "I"s in your posts here and then explain to me how this isn't a personality conflict.

At this point, this thread isn't about discussing and even arguing about the classic trilogy and its role and comparison to the prequels, it's about arguing the personalities and "facts" of the people who discuss such things. You find a way to keep the personalities from being the focus and we've got a discussion to be had - until then, I'm sick of hunting and pecking through this mess looking for an actual discussion of the merits of the CT/PT situation.

You know what? To hell with it, this thread gets to stay open right now simply because I don't feel like getting the last word.

JediTricks
09-30-2002, 09:03 PM
I don't want to insinuate that this is all about stillakid or that this is all his fault, I am more concerned about the ends than the means really. So, on that, in order to get back to the core of this thread's title, I'm going to reference my beliefs on why I think Star Wars is so great and how they reflect upon my beliefs on why the prequels come up short:

From my post in the thread Why Star Wars??? (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=160631#post160631) you can find my opinions on the classic trilogy and here comes the reflections: I feel the prequels so far use special effects not as tools but as crutches far too often - that's not to say always, some of the prequel effects have been incredible storytelling tools IMO, but not most. I also feel that the pacing of the prequels is very off, it's like trying to dance with someone who is listening to a different song. I feel that the audience is talked down and pandered to in TPM too much. I don't feel AOTC has much of a voice, it's just trying to tread water instead of evolve. Those are my feelings.

One thing that I didn't really delve into before is that I feel the classic trilogy aesthetic almost across the board comes up perfectly - that is my personal draw to these films as much as anything else - and the prequels so far have either tried to be so different or just copies on this level that they haven't worked at all for the most part, this even includes the music.

plasticfetish
10-01-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by jeddah
... DMs lightsabre, imaging him naked ...

Hahaha ... I knew if I drove my way through all of these posts I'd find something really funny. Well, you know ... in a pervy kind of way.

:]

PS. They're all great and very entertaining movies and you're all totally correct about everything you've said about them.

The Overlord Returns
10-01-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Just wanted to make a comment in regard to this, first a couple quotes from Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back. :D

Holden McNeil: "The Internet is a communications tool used the world over, where people can come together and b!tch about movies and share pornography with one another."

Holden McNeil: "This is a site populated by militant movie buffs sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents basement downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing."

And one last comment: "Ain't It Cool News" The real site that the one discussed in J&SB:SB is based on. :D

Oh, and right on about Benny Hill, Caesar. That's like Canada claiming "Kids in the Hall" as proof of how good their sense of humor is. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Hehheh......I love that line in the film. It was bang on ( I know, I tend to, for some godforesaken reason, actually read the message boards at AICN).

And why would we claim Kids In The Hall as proof of oujrsense of humor, when we could easily lay claim to Saturday night live?
;)

Dar' Argol
10-01-2002, 11:21 AM
Well, here is my opinion on this whole issue.

I am neither a Prequel defender nor a OT defender. I am a Star Wars Fan. I love both sets of movies. I know that there are problems with the prequels. Do I care . . . .. . . . . NO! Because I like the movies. And I know that there are problems with the OT. But again, do I care . . . . . . . . . NO! Because I like the movies. I do not care about who said what and why. Because the movies are not yet done. "Obi-Wan said he was trained by Yoda but in the prequels we see its Qui-Gon who trains him" . . . . . .. SO!?!?! Yoda trains all the young padawans. And who is to say that in the 3rd movie, Yoda does not instruct Ob-Wan again. Maybe he teaches him that cool little dissapearing trick:D

I have stated before in the EU threads that I care not if its in the movie or not, IT'S ALL STAR WARS, BABY! And that is the same way that I feel about OT/Prequels. IT'S ALL STAR WARS, BABY!!!


:D

mini-rock
10-01-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Dar' Argol
I have stated before in the EU threads that I care not if its in the movie or not, IT'S ALL STAR WARS, BABY! And that is the same way that I feel about OT/Prequels. IT'S ALL STAR WARS, BABY!!!


:D

Exactly! As for EU I don't care for it much, but I don't totally dismiss it either. I'll look at all material, and draw my own conclusion from it. Hell, I'd read a SW story on the back of a bubblegum wrapper.:)

I don't think there should be sides (OT vs PT) since it's all supposed to be one movie. Like Dar' Argol said "IT'S ALL STAR WARS BABY!!!"

The Overlord Returns
10-01-2002, 01:11 PM
the main problem with EU is that people then turn around and want it slipped into the films. They read the story, love the idea, then get all jumbled up when Boba Fett is NOT decsended from Mandalorian warriors, or such and such. Read it all you want, just don't expect it to become Canon, or effect the films in any way. I like some EU stories....but on the level at which I am exposed to them. Doesn't mean I need to see Mara Jade as a little girl in ep 3 to justify her creation in a NOVEL.

mini-rock
10-01-2002, 01:33 PM
The only thing I consider Canon are the movies. The rest is just enetertainment and gives me my "fix" of Star Wars now and then.:)

jeddah
10-01-2002, 01:39 PM
America does Slapstick very well - which is why Monty Python and Benny Hill have been exported to you so successfully.

Although they share some common letters Slapstick and sarcasm are two different things. I really shouldn't have to educate you on this point. I would concede however that your US comedy does tend to be somewhat formulaic and unsubtle. I did however immensely enjoy Jay and Silent Bob Stirke Back but don't actually see the point you've tried to at least aim for.:zzz:

Now, perhaps you should familiarise yourself with Noel or Oscar?


"I spek"

&

"Whatameesasayin'"

Quite. Two quotes incongruous with each other and that betray the intellectual vacuum of the namesake. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Get back to your peanut gallery.

jeddah

stillakid
10-02-2002, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
At this point, this thread isn't about discussing and even arguing about the classic trilogy and its role and comparison to the prequels, it's about arguing the personalities and "facts" of the people who discuss such things. You find a way to keep the personalities from being the focus and we've got a discussion to be had - until then, I'm sick of hunting and pecking through this mess looking for an actual discussion of the merits of the CT/PT situation.

You know what? To hell with it, this thread gets to stay open right now simply because I don't feel like getting the last word.

I stepped back for a few days, but fine, I'll get the last word in on this. I didn't start the personality debate. I asked a question
So anyhow, what this thread is about is listing all of these "problems" that the Original Trilogy supposedly has based on a comment that JJB had made months prior. That's all. From that moment on, I was attacked. Not for my views on the films, but on a highly personal level. I tried to keep the discussion centered on my initial query but others felt it more important to argue why the question was brought up at all. After a while, I should have given up knowing that the thread had been derailed and was never coming back, but I mistakenly went into defense mode. Things were said, accusations were made, but in the end, the original question was avoided and never dealt with.

Many of you don't appreciate the manner in which my posts supposedly talked down to you. For that I apologize. It was never intentional, if that's the way you choose to take it. That's the issue that this thread became about and why I set about having to defend myself rather than stick to the topic at hand.

As you say, JT, there still is a discussion to be had, but only for those that wish to have it. I would kindly ask that if you choose not to participate in further discussions of the topics themselves, to simply not read them. I skip over threads all the time when I click on "view new posts." It'd take days to be involved in everything. I'm trying to ask as gratiously as possible, but am now walking on eggshells because everyone apparently is so sensitive to my so-called "condescending" attitude, as if I'm the only one with strong opinions around here.

DarthBrandon
10-02-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
For some time now, I and a few others, have brought up numerous issues and concerns having to do with the Prequels. Our discussions have primarily centered around story conflicts within TPM and AOTC themselves and Saga conflicts which span across the entire epic (thus far).

So anyhow, what this thread is about is listing all of these "problems" that the Original Trilogy supposedly has. The problems that can be considered bad enough to alter the story or continuity plus all the really bad dialogue. This is the chance for Prequel Defenders to gather in one place the truckloads of continuity story-altering problems that the Original Trilogy possesses which puts it on par with the problems in the Prequels.

:)

Although I love ALL of the Saga so far I do find that there are some conflicts between the Prequels and the O.T. ie.(bad story telling, medichlorians (sp), who trained who, and bad one liners)The O.T. also had it's flaws with the Luke and Leia story i.e. Luke and Leia possible love story turns into brother and sister with the same evil father, that was bad story telling also, Greedo firing first in the S.E. (wasn't needed), bad one liners were also evident i.e. "Laugh it up fuzzball", or "Do you trust him" "No, but he's my friend"-something like that, "I'm Luke Skywalker and I'm here to rescue you". Also we have the Ewoks from ROTJ and I don't know who I dislike more JarJar or the Ewoks. I guess I'll say the Ewoks because there was nothing about those little bear looking creatures that I liked, at least I can tolerate JarJar somewhat. What's next? Well I guess I'll start in on the Imperial fleet, In ROTJ the fleet is supposed to be at it's peak with 20 Star Destroyers (approx) and one mother of all Star Destroyers, compare that to the hundreds in ATOC, where is the continuity there? There are some definite flaws in all of the films, but this is Sci-Fi and not only that, it's S.W. I only hope that GL can tie up all the loose ends to bridge the obvious gaps between the Prequels and the O.T. I hope this is at least something you were looking for, if not I'm afraid I cannot cut up this Saga anymore because it is my favorite of all time and even though there are flaws and I could possibly post more and more after seeing it over and over again, I will choose not to because I want to appreciate it for what it is. Good Sci-Fi (All IMO)
That being said I'm out :D

rynobot
10-02-2002, 11:25 PM
Ewoks represent Good while Stormtrooper represent Evil, it makes perfect sense to have something so small and innocent beat the bad guys to prove that good beats evil.

stillakid
10-02-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by rynobot
Ewoks represent Good while Stormtrooper represent Evil, it makes perfect sense to have something so small and innocent beat the bad guys to prove that good beats evil.

I like your quote! "Hopped up on Goofballs." :) Where's that from? Thanks!

rynobot
10-03-2002, 12:54 AM
1: page 7 of this thread

2: The Simpsons