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View Full Version : The Death Penalty: Yes or No????



Tycho
09-28-2002, 01:57 AM
Geeze this can some days be a tough one, but I'm mostly PRO death penalty.

We have systems of appeal to try and re-try cases so the chances are terribly lessened that an innocent man will be executed.

And an innocent man should not typically be in situations where one might get framed for a capital crime in the first place.

Incarceration and jail seems incredibly cruel. You know what goes on prisons. It's not rehabilitation - especially for life-timers, or those facing sentences of more than 20 years as alternatives to being but to death in the first place.

Prison serves several functions:

1) protects potential new victims, or people who would be re-victimized by the perpetraitors so they can't commit more crimes.

2) deters people who think rationally, and also correctly weigh out the chances they'd be caught committing a crime. - However, in most pre-meditated murders (1st Degree Murders), people are extremely and strongly motivated to commit the crime. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. In 2nd Degree murders, someone is robbing a store with a gun, and shoots to help them escape or defend themselves from being counter-attacked. It is not pre-planned to the same extent (if the jury believes that). - However, if you planned to rob a bank, and absolutely NOT kill anyone, why not hold a squirt pistol under your jacket so no one can tell you don't have a real gun. I suppose you'll have some disappointments as a criminal, but then you are also demonstrating knowledge that you KNOW you shouldn't be robbing anyone in the first place.

3) theoretically rehabilitates a person to get back into society and live correctly. It is punishment and enlightenment supposedly. For short sentences, I do believe it can be, with counseling and education and job training requirements to make parole. But for capital crime punishments, it is cruel punishment for lifers, and a waste of our resources (though I know it supposedly costs more to put someone to death - the retrials, and the time taken while they're in prison anyway, waiting for a re-trial).

Meanwhile, what the death penalty can not counter:

1) killing the wrong man. (If there's that many re-trials and the wrong man is still executed - when we learn this - we can charge the real perpetraitor for the other man's execution as well).

2) suicidal folks who want to die anyway. But a) you can't do anything about them if they suceed in killing themselves and b) if they can't kill themselves and want the State to do it for them, they will lament in prison, waiting for re-trial after re-trial. That should be a deterrant. They sought an end to their life, instead they get that delayed, while they rot on death row.

But these kids who shoot up schools don't know what they're doing. We need it to be a capital crime for sure. But they are almost victims of society. We don't need to torture them further. They killed their victims quickly in these cases, and there are eye-witnesses, so get rid of them, too.

David Westerfield is another story. He basically tortured that little girl we've assumed. The evidence is circumstantial, but there is only the slightest chance and way too many coincidences working against him, to make anyone believe he was framed and innocent. There is either more members of a conspiracy that Westerfield is included in, or he is covering really good for someone else who committed the crime. Maybe Westerfield has a terminal illness and knew he wouldn't stay in prison terribly long (nor on this world anyway - regardless of the death penalty) However, if he was completely innocent and is covering for someone, and does not want to be executed - he is still an accessory, and his death is his own fault. If he is totally innocent and not involved, he should die for being so stupid as to take his "recovered" blood stained clothing to the dry cleaners and not reporting something that strange to the police immediately. Especially when he knew a neighbor's girl was missing. If he's innocent and executed, than he is just the most unlucky guy in the world. If he's innocent and an accessory to this? I really don't think public opinion will care if he's executed though he didn't actually kill Danielle.

Next, why does Europe think they are so enlightened because most countries Do Not have the death penalty over there?

Do they still have life sentences? What do they think about that?

Finally, shouldn't people's opinions about the Death Penalty match their views on abortion? As in "yes and yes" or "no and no?" Why can someones views on this subject be so different?

jjreason
09-28-2002, 03:12 AM
First off, I do agree that the death penalty fits certain offences - althought the threat of getting the "wrong" guy looms large.

I don't really see how the issues of abortion and supporting the death penalty are linked. I don't support abortion, although I do agree that each woman should be allowed to choose. Im getting closer and closer to pro-life, however, as I watch my kids grow up.

I don't think anyone would be dead set against the death penalty only because they happen to be pro-life on the abortion debate. I think both issues warrant more deliberation than that.

2-1B
09-28-2002, 05:33 AM
NO

scruffziller
09-28-2002, 08:40 AM
4 words..... EYE FOR AN EYE!!!

































2 more words......closed soon...:rolleyes:

Exhaust Port
09-28-2002, 09:48 AM
YES

jjreason
09-28-2002, 10:22 AM
One notable problem is suitable alternatives. I believe that in this day in age incarceration is largely not a punishment at all. For Young Offenders time on the inside is spent learning how to fight better, get stronger and not get caught next time. They may also use that time to familiarize themselves with drugs and the drug trade. For adults, incarceration is often a near-pleasurable experience (depending of course on the nature of the offence committed, level of security needed, etc.) - Ive heard enough about inmates having access to movies and golf clubs. Ridiculous. Prison has evolved with our society to the point now where the prisoners have too many rights (like I can decide what too many rights are - these are opinions I remind you). Prison in the beginning was feared and hated. It's not like that now. Many offenders actually look forward to going to certain institutions in my experience - not an acceptable form of punishment for robbing people or breaking into someone's house.
The corrections system in North America could really stand an overhaul. It's time to start thinking abstractly, and asking new questions. I think good input could be obtained by speaking with convicts and ex-inmates. Who's up to the task?

Exhaust Port
09-28-2002, 11:35 AM
Excellent idea jjreason. With so many rights/opportunities being granted to inmates they're quality of life is better than a sizable part of society that plays by the rules. Where else can you get free cable, room/board and a free education? Sure their rooms are small but so is my apartment.

QLD
09-28-2002, 11:57 AM
YES

TylerD
09-28-2002, 12:30 PM
I support the death penalty. If a person commits a horrendous crime (such as Cary Stayner, who murdered three women in Yosemite a few years ago) then they should pay and be killed.

However, some people make a good point when they say that the death penalty is the easy way out for them. My friends think that Cary Stayner should get life in prison without the possibility of parole, simply so he can suffer all those years.

Either way you go, they still suffer.


BTW, I am also Pro-Life...so yes, I am a yes-yes person ;)

master jedi
09-28-2002, 02:21 PM
I vote a big no. But I do think the criminal needs to be punished severly.

Jargo
09-28-2002, 02:35 PM
I reckon kilers should be kept alive and locked in a cube forever and a day until the y themselves either kill themselves or die a natural death of old age. The death sentence proves nothing. Deprivation in isolation is a just punishment for the severest offenders. There have been too many proved innocent after they have faced the electric chair or gas chamber for the death sentence to be a viable proposition or deterrent. In fact we had a discussion here a while back about how the death penalty no longer holds the same dread that it once did for criminals. "Kill once - gonna get the death sentence so might as well take 'em all out" seems to be the philosophy behind many mass murders.
I don't claim to be expert in anything here just have an opinion for what it's worth that the death penalty was abolished here many years ago and thus far our system and society hasn't crumbled because of that, so removing it in the States possibly won't harm society. The prospect of real life sentences is scarier than a few years and then the chair or the noose or the gas chamber. Those solutions are a get out for many criminals. An easy end to it all. Punishment should be just that - punishment. rehabilitation never or rarely really works. So let's stop kidding ourselves and just get back to the punishment for the crime part. Deprivation and incarceration are enough for most. It's the overcrowding of prisons and sttupid prison sentences that need addressing. I understand that in certain states of America the non payment of parking fines can result in a spell inside a prison. How utterly pointless. Let's keep the prisons clear for the real offenders.
And education, care of the mentally ill, drug rehab should all be stepped up to avoid those classes of people faling into a life of self perpetuating crime and punishment.

It will never be possible to stop people slipping under the radar and becoming monsters in one way or another, either becoming self destructive or destructive with society, but it would help if the governments of the world stopped having ****ing contests about who has the biggest weapons of mass destruction and got back to grass roots and sought to solve the problems faced on home territory.

sith_killer_99
09-28-2002, 04:19 PM
I do not support the death penalty.

I much prefer the idea of criminals doing hard time or spending their lives rotting in a small cell somewhere.

The death penalty does NOT serve as a deterant.

State sponsored murder is no solution.

One dead innocent is TOO high a price to pay for society's vengence.

The law says "reasonable doubt" and avoids the responsibility of killing innocent people who have been wrongly conviced by saying that a "JURY" found them guilty.

Old Testament says "Eye for an eye."

Jesus said "I am the NEW covenant" and "Let he among you who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone."

Religion and faith aside, no system created by men is perfect. DEATH is absolute.

QLD
09-28-2002, 05:04 PM
Well, I would be all for keeping them alive to suffer.....but instead, I pay tax dollars to clothe, feed, educate, entertain, and house some creep who raped a 5 year old and killed her.

If they just threw them into a giant hole and let them fend for themselves and not give them food, water, etc...I would be all for it. However, I honestly feel they don't give the death penalty enough. You have to kill 30 people, or a cop before you get it. I mean, living for 30 years in a 5 x 9 cell isn't that bad. It's a BETTER life for some people. ANd certainly worth the risk for many criminals. The threat of jail is a joke to them. If they used the death penalty more, they would have to use it less, in my opinion.

So either throw them in a hole......or kill them. But don't make me pay for it.

jedi_uk73
09-28-2002, 06:21 PM
The UK has not had a death penalty for well over 100 years (If I remember correctly).

It was mainly scrapped because innocent people were being hung, only to find the real criminal was still out there.

There has been a few times over the last 2 years, that young children have been abducted and murdered. 3 just recently and another one 2 years ago, which happened 4 miles from where I live.
Plus a few others are still missing.

These kind of people should be left to rot, one way or another.

Having a Death Penalty is too good for these criminals, its the easy way out for them.

QLD
09-28-2002, 06:29 PM
The problem is...the death penalty is not harsh enough......but we won't lower outselves to anything worse....so we just support them until they die.

I am all for something else....but I don't think we are willing to do it.

Jargo
09-28-2002, 06:34 PM
Death penalty was abolished in the 1950's here in the UK after famous cases like the Ruth Ellis murder trial and Craig(?) bennett 'let him have it' cases gave rise to cries of inhumane sentences and gross miscarriage of justice. The chief executioner was retired and there hasn't been a single state sanctioned death since exept in times of espionage or war...

2-1B
09-28-2002, 06:39 PM
If you think prisoners are treated too well and should therefore be put to death, then your problem is with the SYSTEM. Change the SYSTEM.
To advocate capital punishment because "prison is like a country club" is incredibly ignorant. :)

QLD
09-28-2002, 06:57 PM
OH YEAH!!!!!!!

WELL YOU ARE IGNORANT!!!!!!!!!!

J/K :crazed: You know I love you ;)

No, I have no problems executing people who commit murder. Though I feel the system does need to be re-worked.

If that is the easy way off, then so be it. I think the death penalty is more for our protection than a punishment for them. I won't pretend my opinions are right, but I think someone dying for a severe crime is just fine. People who kill in cold blood don't deserve to live among us.

Now I do think our justice system needs a SEVERE overhaul. Too many criminals get away, and too many innocent people are convicted. I don't have the answer, so I won't pretend to.

If they want to send them to the moon to rot...fine.....
If they want to build a big wall around Alabama, and throw them there.....fine......
I just do not feel they should live among us, and I do not feel we should be financially responsible for them.

Maybe people who oppose the death penalty would be willing to take part in the "adopt-a-convicted-murderer" program.

:crazed:

2-1B
09-28-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
Maybe people who oppose the death penalty would be willing to take part in the "adopt-a-convicted-murderer" program.

:crazed:

I already do - I pay taxes. :D


Build a wall around Alabama ? I'm okay with that, but they may as well close in Georgia while they're at it. :crazed:

QLD
09-28-2002, 07:12 PM
BOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody knows that Alabama is just an extension of the Zoo Atlanta. :crazed:

Maybe they could put the criminals on an all-excrement diet.....that could work...... :crazed:

Tycho
09-28-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Where else can you get free cable, room/board and a free education? Sure their rooms are small but so is my apartment.

That also describes a law-abiding person who wants to learn, demonstrates that in high school or adult-education, and applies for a scholarship to college - and then they have the opportunity to really make something out of their lives.

Scholarships combined with student loans for these times maybe, but modern colleges have "free cable, room/board and a free education." (in so far as you can get scholarships, grants, and pay your loans after you are successful and able to)

QLD
09-28-2002, 07:24 PM
Well, if prison is like college, SIGN ME UP!

I am going to go knock over a liquor store now! :crazed:

Beer, keg parties, naked women, football......

I can deal with classes and tests......

Dark Lord Kakorotto
09-28-2002, 07:32 PM
Yes...eye for an eye...as scruffziller mentioned

Tycho
09-28-2002, 07:38 PM
You know what I meant. Obviously from your post, QLD, there are more incentives than just cable, room&board, and even just getting an education for people to go to college.

I have never been in prison, but I've toured a jail for a class I was taking.

I need to be active, have room to move. I would go crazy being crammed in a standard sized cell!

Furthermore, if one was innocent, what compensation, what kind of repayment is adequate for someone who loses the best years of their life behind bars because they were wrongfully convicted.

For many of those years, they'd seriously live without hope of ever getting out of there. So there's mental torture too.

An innocent man killed wouldn't suffer a lifetime of that.

However, the average time it takes from a death sentence to an execution is 16 years!

In the old days, when they'd hang you after a conviction, they didn't have the re-trial and appeals process working the way we do now.

If Westerfield is innocent somehow, he probably has plenty of time to prove it. However, what if he is? When he gets out, how much more time in his life will he have left? Without his business, without his house, without his luxury toys? Will he ever (if innocent) have an honest chance to get that back? If it takes 16 years to prove he's innocent, he'll be in his mid-70's when he gets out, or older. Surely, he probably won't be in a condition to rape another child (but the hypothesis here is that he's innocent for the moment), but what will he do with his life then? He'll be dependent on family and friends to take care of him, and live out a more shameful or embarassing existence through no fault of his own. If he was innocent and it takes that long, there's still no justice. In a life sentence, there might be even less pressure to try the case again, ahead of others that were death sentence. So he might be innocent and last behind bars well into his 80's before it's almost time to lock him indoors again - this time in a nursing home.

It helps illustrate why some people are willing to die for their freedom.

QLD
09-28-2002, 07:42 PM
Prison works well as a deterrant for people who most likely wouldn't commit the crime anyway.

But it doesn't work as a deterrant for people who would, mostly because their life would improve by going, or they have been there already.

Maybe they should impose a RUnning Man-type of prison system, where if they survive, they can go free. ;)

Jango Jett
09-28-2002, 07:58 PM
YES, I strongly support the DEATH PENALTY ! I wish they would carry out the executions as soon as the guilty person gets
sentenced, like within 3 days of being given the death penalty.
If a person is sentenced to life in prison , they should suffer the
consequences, no family visitation, no tv, luxuries, no nothing!
in California it typically takes 10 years or more for a person to
get executed.

sith_killer_99
09-28-2002, 08:30 PM
Food for thought:

In China when a person is sentenced to Death they are shot immediatly and the family recieves a bill for the cost of the bullet.

The United States is one of the few countries in the world that feels free to sentence kids under the age of 21 to Death. A stance which has brought criticism from the UN, and Human Rights Agencies world wide.

Charles Manson has NOTHING to fear from current Capital Punishment laws.

Few Serial Killers have ever escaped from prison, in fact most prefer to remain incarcerated.

Serial Killers tend to commit their crimes in States that have a Death Penalty, it adds excitement to what they are doing. "Man is the most dangerous game" the Zodiac.

Few child molestors actually commit murder.

Your tax dollars cannot bring back an innocent man who was executed for a crime he did not commit.

The system is BROKE, if these "life sentences" were spent WORKING at hard labor, prison would seem a LOT less cozy. It is possible to make these people productive enough to EARN their way.

Prison should be for SERVING TIME not for college education, cable TV, surfing the net or anything not related to working off their debt to society.

Convicted fellons CAN vote (in the U.S.) after they have completed their sentence and re-entered society. Many just don't know that they can apply to have their voting rights re-instated.

2-1B
09-28-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Furthermore, if one was innocent, what compensation, what kind of repayment is adequate for someone who loses the best years of their life behind bars because they were wrongfully convicted.

For many of those years, they'd seriously live without hope of ever getting out of there. So there's mental torture too.

An innocent man killed wouldn't suffer a lifetime of that.

Tycho, are you somehow considering that it might be better to execute an innocent man than to keep him imprisoned for years? :confused:

dr_evazan22
09-28-2002, 11:39 PM
For the death penalty and for abortion.

I've got to respect a guy like Tim McVeigh who didn't fight his penalty and was executed as soon as possible.

A lot of you seem to think that providing an education to convicts is wrong. Why do you feel that way? Don't you know that an education is part of rehabilitation? That having a good education is a great crime deterrent? Prisons aren't chock full of Harvard and Yale grads. The majority are probably people who may've been lucky to graduate HS.

Alot of criminals turn to crime b/c they don't see any other way.

Despite that, an individuals rehab is all up to the individual. A great example of someone turning around is Malcolm X. I'm sure you can all think of examples from your area of repeat offenders who continue to commit crimes.
I believe that the longer your sentence, and the more time you serve (assuming your not a lifer) the less chance of a repeat. If you are sentenced to 30 years w/ parole possible after 15(for example). You get out after 20, you still have 10 years of probation. Now, for those of you who think prison is already too easy, you probably think it's not enough. But the deterrent is there for the (ex)con. If they commit another crime they would have to finish their origianl time, plus time for any additional crimes. Weigh that against: the freedom they now have, the life they've created, their loss of family.

Then there's the assertion that prisons are "too easy" on convicts. Sure, they can get an "edgimication", and there is some TV/cable, a library, excercise equipment. But you have no freedom. You are told what to do, when to do it, probably how to do it. On top of all that you would have to deal w/ the other inmates and any cliques or gangs, not to mention all the horror stories of same sex rape. On top of THAT you've got the State on you at all times of the day, in the form of guards and staff. There are a lot of guards out there that are plain old bully's, who treat con's like animals b/c they know that they can usually get away w/ it.

Tycho brought up another good discussion point- People wrongly convicted. In the news this week was a person recently admitting that they were the Central Park Rapist, who's DNA matched semen found at the scene. What happens to the people who were already convicted?

2-1B
09-28-2002, 11:51 PM
Quick point about prison rape - sometimes people turn a deaf ear to the epidemic, they don't want to hear about it or they just don't care. Well, I care on a moral level - it's just not right for anyone to be brutally attacked. So I won't dismiss it, regardless.

However, even if you DON'T care that it happens to prisoners, you really should - out of concern for the rest of society. Think about it, who's more likely to get bullied and raped in prison? The least violent inmates . . . and then what happens when they get out? (which is inevitable, because people who commit less serious crimes and are victimized in prison are more likely to get out within a few years)
Anyway, when you consider STD rates and what can happen if a prison rape victim is released back into society, well . . . it only becomes obvious that we'll have a higher rate of STD carriers.

Ealrier I was clowning around with QLD, but I implore you to at least consider this issue seriously before turning a deaf ear to the situation. :(

Tycho
09-29-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


Tycho, are you somehow considering that it might be better to execute an innocent man than to keep him imprisoned for years? :confused:

Yes.

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 12:17 AM
I believe in the death penalty to deal with murderers, rapists and child molesters. Age shouldn't be a factor. If a 7 year old boy is capable of committing murder, what will he be capable of when he is 30? One of my troops in the army had a former best friend who was sentenced to life in prison for murdering, beheading and sodomizing (in that order) his own mother. And right now, you are all paying for his cable TV and college education. Meanwhile, thousands of families are living on the street, with no income, because of corporate greed and recession. You tell me the system is not backwards.

Although, child molestation cases are becoming like the Salem witch trials. If you are accused, you are automatically guilty. Basically, the way the system is set up now, if you are male, you are a potential rapist and child molester.:stupid:

To kind of touch on abortion, I don't believe in it at all. I don't think the argument that a woman should be able to decide what to do with her body is valid. Once that egg is fertilized, it is alive and the woman's body no longer belongs to her, it belongs to that developing fetus that depends on the body for survival. The woman will survive without the fetus, the fetus will die without the woman, thus abortion is denying the fetus it's means of survival and is murder. No room for argument as far as I am concerned.

Who knows, if I was a woman I might see it differently, but that leads into my arguments for abstinence. Any animal can go around having sex with everything that moves, but it takes real self-control and intelligence to practice abstinence and keep sex within marriage.

thespar
09-29-2002, 12:22 AM
i am all for the death penalty if their is no debt that the man they

have for the crime is guilty. they have dna, serval people who see

the person in question do this they should be put to death. and

what give the person who kills some to be judge, jury, and

executioner. i know that no one is the usa have give them the right. one of the main problem they have with the death penalty

now of day is how many re-trails. know if the do not have 100%

proof that the man has done this the put them in jail and put the

hard labor. they can set up a mess load of tents and feed the

mre for their meals and surround the area with conestant wire.

heck the tents and mre are good for the men and women who

defend are nations then are better then the people in jail need.

dr_evazan22
09-29-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Any animal can go around having sex with everything that moves, but it takes real self-control and intelligence to practice abstinence and keep sex within marriage.

It would take A LOT of self control:) !

Beast
09-29-2002, 12:47 AM
Get rid of the Death Penalty, bring back torture and mutilation as deterants for crimes. You don't see to many pick-pockets getting caught a second time without their hands. Same with rapists, and you know what part they loose. ;) You can't do the crime, if you don't have the tools. Just get some really inventive people to think up the judgement in unique cases. Like my cheese grater/sandpaper/lemon juice and tobasco judgement for Osama Bin Ladin. Don't forget the tobasco enema as as well. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!! :evil: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Nexu
09-29-2002, 12:56 AM
I agree completley with Big B. Rapists, murderers, terrorists, and child molestors should die. Period. The whole system is screwed up, in every way possible.

sith_killer_99
09-29-2002, 01:01 AM
I don't respect ANYTHING about Tim McVeigh. So what if he didn't appeal his case. The guy was a MASS murderer. And so what if he served in thwe military...so did Benedict Arnold. Tim McVeigh was a traitor to this country!

BigB, I understand where you're coming from with the age thing, but it really does make a difference. Someone who commits an act of agression at 17 years old and accidentally kills someone, is not the same person 10 years later. Sometimes we wonder just how thin the line is between flying off the handle and actually killing a person. I used to have REAL issues with controlling my anger, ESPECIALLY as a teenager. I am a completly different person today. I'm not saying we should justify their actions or that they shouldn't pay for their crime. I'm just saying that we shouldn't execute them. For some reason, almost every major civilized country in the world gets that, except us and China.

dr_evazan22, I have no problem at all with people trying to improve themselves. I am all for libraries and a few hours of study time a week. I have heatburn with the state paying for inmates to get their college diploma. Let teachers volunteer a few hours here and there, let non-violent inmates EARN a few hours of class time a week. But when they start earing college credit, on the taxpayers dime, we have a problem.

Tycho
09-29-2002, 01:08 AM
Meanwhile, let's clarify a few things:

People who could benefit from rehabilitation are not usually serial killers or murdering sex offenders.

These people may be very educated but have an addiction or anger management problems:

1) You could get so frustrated in your reaserch as an M.D. trying to cure cancer, that you kill your patients to put them out of their misery. You claim it was a dignified death. You're still a murderer. (though I'm for legalizing euthanasia).

2) Law school might be too much stress for you, so you decide to unwind some with your handgun, bringing it with you to the law library.

3) Your life as a busy Congressman (from Modesto, California) might be too demanding on its time it takes away from your sex life. So you have an affair with an intern. To prevent your wife from learning of it, and the public from turning against you for your infidelity, you kill all witnesses to the affair - especially the intern.

4) Your busy career as a professional might have caused you to feel you missed out on life when everyone else (in their teens and 20's) still acted like children. You begin raping children in some way to feel like you can return to that age again. Why don't they like you? Even though you're 52, you still look like you're in high school, don't you?

5) Your wife has a mental breakdown. She's driving you nuts at home. You can't concentrate on your job as a Superior Court Judge. Your home life you worked so hard for you is destroyed by a loved one's mental illness. She's even threatened to kill you. Her family was wealthy, and you deserve the benefits of her life insurance policy for putting up with her abuse, don't you? No one will suspect a judge is doing anything wrong when he goes to a dumpster with a large, black trashbag at 2 'o clock in the morning.

Compare that to:

A) You don't have enough money for food and you have a drug addiction because you weren't supervised as a kid when you started using. You've dropped out of school and aren't reliable for a job and can't compete with those who have an education. You start knocking over convenience stores, then robbing banks wearing the masks of US Presidents because you know you'll never get to be one.

B) You're a kid from a poor family. You want to have what all the other kids have. Your parents work hard but never get ahead and feel you don't just "deserve something." You want that red astromech figure in the Royal Starship window box so you slit it with a knife when no one's looking. But someone was looking - and they call security. But next time (when you're release from Juvenile Detention) you'll be more careful so that you can get away with it.

C) You're all alone and wish you had some friends or a girlfriend. Everyone is having fun at the bars. You're a little shy, so that you're not doing anything but just sitting there, you buy another drink. And you buy another one. Soon you finally work up the courage to ask a girl to join you. She shoots you down. You are embarassed and feel like leaving as quickly as possible. You finish your drink and get into your car. Of course you can drive ok. The guy with the red and blue lights flashing on his car just doesn't know you that well...

D) You live in a poor neighborhood. You've had children before you were ready for them, but you're trying your hardest to support them. You just never get any further. You can't take care of your kids, and rely on public transportation to get you both to your job, to shopping for your family, and to school to take evening classes so you can find better work. You make more money staying at home and learning to make methanolamphetamine. Someone who works for the Justice Department shows up one day, posing to be a customer. -Oh, and before you learned what you were doing, a drug you made incorrectly killed someone.

In situation A: getting an education and job training and learning interview skills for non-gunpoint situations might help you deal with life the way the rest of us do.

In situation B: being forced to complete education and job training, possibly madatory requirement of 2 years of a college education before being discharged from parole supervision would get you on the right track as an adult who was misguided as a juvenile.

In Situation C: being forced to complete an alcholism awareness course, study driver education and insurance information regarding drunken driving collisions, as well as being put into relationship counseling for singles programs would educate you about other areas of your life, regardless of whether you were some kind of professional.

In Situation D: Having your children cared for in loving foster homes where they will have a better example might alliviate some of your worries over them. Doing community service in drug rehabilitation centers while you think about what you sold to those people might make you reconsider your position. Establishing a good employment record during your parole occupation, might aid you in acquiring a better job so you can pay child-support and re-establish yourself as a role model for your children.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, in Situation 1: you have destroyed the lives and hopes of many familes and committed gross medical malpractice in a trusted profession. You'll never be allowed to practice medacine again. Why should you be? Can you have a meaningful life as a prison physician? If you had low regard for free persons needing your assistance, what would you feel towards other prisoners you might practice medacine on? Could you go back into society and do something else with your life? You might be sued for all you're worth so you're not going to be able to afford law school, and is a job at a 7-eleven really fitting for a cancer specialist who killed his patients? There's hardly a way for you to be trusted to make a difference any more, and not in ways you'd find rewarding. Your life is over anyway. Euthanize yourself.

In Situation 2: Anger management classes are great for people who have started a bar fight, or have beaten their wives, husbands, or children. But as a law student, didn't they teach you it was illegal to just randomly shoot someone? I'm sure that unless you're in Texas, you won't get another gun license.

In Situation 3: you are so self-centered you would kill and cover it up to keep your high position. If you're that smart, do you think you can be educated to think less of yourself, like "next time, you still won't get away with it?"

In Situation 4: you like sex. So does everybody. You're not likely to give it up and castration is extreme cruel and unusual punishment. You might get raped in jail, but you're actually looking forward to that. It's just another deviation. But you've destroyed a child's life or possibly their chances at having their own meaningful relationships. The cycle will continue as your victims become your replacements. Counseling won't help unless there's a dating matchmaker set up to specifically hook up pedophiles with normal mates who think they can satisfy them. Otherwise, they are acting out a perversion of an instinctive behavior and it is not correctible. If they killed in their deprivations, they should die for it. If they cannot be committed to some kind of rehabilitative facility that will keep them incarcerated and possibly satisfy their needs for them, they will commit acts of rape again - or at the very least consider them - which involves thinking about how they can get away with them. The death penalty should be a strong deterrant for them. They thrive on life and don't want to forfeit it or any of their satisfaction.

In Situation 5: education would come all too late. No matter if they are an unskilled laborer, or a white collared professional, they need to learn home-care skills for dealing with an ill loved one. Since they already burried them, this isn't an option. They may be the least likely purpetraitor to kill again, since it was a highly personal murder, but should they be allowed to do their time and then get out, collect money, and benefit by it? This also makes me think of The Shawshank Redemption. I'd let Andy do my taxes, sure. Even if he really did it. He'd have nothing against me, and he's not typically a killer. But this guy's value in the murder was that he would be able to go on with his life and be able to profit professionally, or by way of whatever inheritance he got from his dead loved one - or at least life without the *****in.
That's the reward he sought. Life somehow. Death would be a deterrant.

Prisons don't have to be harsh. They lack freedom to begin with. The time should fit the crime. But the education and training requirements to get paroled for those who can be redeemed should be harsh and extreme. A guy doing 15 years for armed robbery should only be allowed to walk out after completing a college education and some limited experience-job training. Assuming he hadn't finished High School, that'd only take 8 years, and then while he's finishing his time, he can do take-in work, say in accounting, etc. Then have a job when he gets out since he got caught and obviously hasn't had time to practice armed robbery.

If he wants to be in the gym all the time, when he leaves he should be a fully certified fitness trainer.

They walk through a revolving door because they are only prepared to be repeat offenders.

In other cases, no amount of education will redeem them, because they are born offenders or they are those who have made highly reasoned-out plans to benefit from their heinous actions. They should not be allowed to breathe to reap the benefits of their actions.

2-1B
09-29-2002, 01:37 AM
Jesus would not have had anyone put to death while he was on Earth, I don't think it's our place to do so either.

Tycho, do me a favor - if I'm ever wrongfully convicted of a serious offense and locked away for a looooooong time, PLEASE do me a favor and don't sit out on the courtsteps advocating my execution out of compassion for me, okay? :D

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-29-2002, 01:55 AM
I see the death penalty as a form of barbarism, a remnant of archaic civilizations in where crime and lawlessness were a fact of life.

There was Hammarabi's code (an eye for an eye) employed by civilizations as a punishment for a crime. If someone cut off another person's arm and beat them to death with it, then the same was done to you. Then society evolved to other unusual punishments like burning at the stake and drawing and quatering. Now we have evolved to quick death punishments like the gas chamber and lethal injection.

I don't see how a person who is going to commit a crime that will warrant the penalty (like shooting an ex-lover or abducting, murdering and/or molesting a child) is going to be deterred by the death penalty. If they are savage enough to commit these atrocious acts, I don't think that anything will deter them, not the threat of capture, not even death.

And like many of you have mentioned, death is the ultimate fulfillment of many of these criminals. They have done their dirty deeds, the only thing that is left for them to do is to die. And that is exactly what the state will do.

What the government does during executions, is amount, to stooping to the level of the criminal. The criminal has done something heinous, well the government is doing the same, justly deserved or not. It is stooping to that same level when it takes away a life.

The alternative too has some problems. Prison many have mentioned is sometimes too broken to reform any of our criminals, prison life is akin to a jungle or (I guess depending who and where you are) can be too cozy to criminals with it's Cable TV and such.

But locking someone away for the rest of their life for their actions does a couple of things. Theoretically, you will sit in a cell for the rest of your life, thinking about the wrongs of your actions and the grief you have caused. That also prolongs the death wish a person may have, the fulfillment talked about in the post earlier. Prison also strips away the freedoms and rights given to all man.

I do feel torn on this issue. The argument about abortion also has crept in too. I can tell that I am pro choice, but I have done some soul searching recently and I see that the arguments that I have as pro-choice pall in comparison to those of pro-lifers. I never liked the procedure of abortion, especially the late-term ones which are very barbaric. I am not saying that the pro-choice side has no strong, deep reasons or arguments, it's that as jjreason said earlier, as you experience the life of others, you start to question your beliefs on this issue.

stillakid
09-29-2002, 02:48 AM
Not a simple situation and not a simple solution.

The answer begins with our system of "punishment."

Step 1: The Crime

There are three distinct possibilities for a crime:
1. Clear and indisputable evidence that "he" did it.
2. The Criminal is dangerous to society and exhibits little potential for changing that in the future.
3. The Criminal is not a physical threat to society, as in the case of a white collar crime, for instance.

Step 2: The Punishment

1. If the crime involved malicious and intentional murder or intent to cause the death of someone else for reasons other than self-defense, then the death penalty should be issued within days or hours of the crime.

2. The Criminal shall be placed in the custody of the state (or nation) for a minimum sentence of harsh physical punishment/labor which cannot be revoked for "good behavior" or other such reasons. This is the "punishment" prison.

3. The Criminal in this case goes to the "reform" prison. For instance, the young girl who "aborts" her baby and tosses it into the trash can at school because she's scared. This type of "murder" is indeed a tragedy, but there is a reasonable expectation that she will not put herself in the circumstance ever again. If she did, and repeated the same crime, then she would be bumped into situation 1 above.

Essentially, we need to establish "Punishment" prison and "Reform" prison and leave discretionary powers to judges and juries as to which criminals go to which type of prison. Common sense must reenter the judicial picture. It's nearly impossible to form clear cut legislation that can handle the large variety of crimes and criminals. However, dumping every criminal into the same prison system regardless of the crime is silly and counter-productive. Unfortunately, some individuals are lost. We have to give up on them and either execute them or sentence them to a life of hard service to the society in which they knowingly broke the rules. Not every individual is worth saving. They know the rules, they make the choice to break them, and must pay a real price. But we must determine which of those criminals are the truly evil and which are not and deal with them accordingly.

Tycho
09-29-2002, 02:51 AM
Children who are going to be loved and cared for by their parents, or single parent, will not be aborted, even with Choice.

If they are loved but can't be cared for, they will be put up for adoption.

Abortion does occur even with married couples who do not want, or can't afford to have children, or with those who have gotten conclusive evidence that there is something retarding or endangering the healthy development of a normal child.

I do not like abortion.

I do believe sex without consequences is both needed and desireable. Therefore I believe in birth control.

However, birthcontrol is not always 100% effective, and an amoeba fertillized egg has no self-awareness etc., so the morning after pill RU486 and its comparables are fine by me.

A little bit more developed cell cluster (like when they take stem cells) could also be reasonably taken for the sake of medacine and the knowledge that could be acquired to save sentient lives.

We are talking about nothing that yet looks human, is self-aware like a human, etc.

I also believe that the stem cells that are taken are cultivated and kept alive during research. The surrounding 'baby tissue' is destroyed though. But an egg is alive as it grows - the shell too - but the baby chicken kills the shell and digests its nutrient source, the placenta in the egg, when the baby chicken emerges. This is no different. In fact, human placentas are alive. You could argue that babies should never be born because the placenta will be killed if they are!

I don't want to get into religious arguments here, but I do not believe that non-sentient humans have souls. However, if there ever is such a thing, or we develop one as we're born into this world, then Clones can have souls, too. How much you think for yourself, will probably determine what's left of you as a spirit or ghost. Most of Jerry Springer's guests will just rot when they die. There's nothing (positive) of value to them and it's scary they don't know how to get access to family planning services (not necessarily conclusively terminating their incest pregnancies etc. in abortion).

But I believe we each determine our own value if we're allowed to live and our natural gifts our cultivated by our environment - hopefully properly. Those sitting on death row because they deserve it cultivated nothing. The same with an unwanted fetus which will not be cared for correctly if allowed to develop and be born. The life is worth nothing.

There are enough humans. We don't need all the potential ones.

Pendo
09-29-2002, 08:23 AM
Do I agree with the death penalty? That's a tough question.
If you'd asked this question a few months ago I'd probably have said "No" because there was always the chance that the person was innocent. But now, after the Holly and Jessica case, I hope that teacher and caretaker fry and burn in hell :mad:.
So yeah, I agree with the death penalty! But think it should only be used if it is 100% certain that the person murdered someone, like there is video footage or they admit to it, etc..

:dead:

PENDO!

Jedi Clint
09-29-2002, 01:10 PM
I like the idea of different prisons for different crimes. When there is no reasonable doubt that someone has committed a violent crime, I think lethal injection should be a timely fate for the individual. The problem I see, exists in the trial system. IMO justice is in real jeopardy in this time.


Originally posted by bigbarada
I don't think the argument that a woman should be able to decide what to do with her body is valid. Once that egg is fertilized, it is alive and the woman's body no longer belongs to her, it belongs to that developing fetus that depends on the body for survival. The woman will survive without the fetus, the fetus will die without the woman, thus abortion is denying the fetus it's means of survival and is murder.

I couldn't agree more. I wish to add: It is barbaric. It is not birth control. If someone is not capable of responsible reproductive behavior (in this context: someone who practices sex without respect for the creation of life, and/or the premeditated desire to destroy any life created by the act), then perhaps that person should have that priveledge taken away.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
09-29-2002, 01:19 PM
I'm pro-death pentalty and pro-choice. I think for some crimes, people deserve nothing less than death. My pops and i have always had the idea to let the innocent go into the hands of the victim's families. Imagine if your son or daughter or family member was murdered by some man. I'd personally want to torture him until the point he wishes he was in jail or dead. That's the only true justice in those kinds of cases. Then again, it has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're guilty.
As for abortion, i'm for it. Let a woman do with her body whatever she wants, it's none of my business what she decides to do. Some cases about if it's an accident or whatnot is wrong, but say a lady is raped or something. What if she doesn't want the child out there, reminding her of that? I know i sure as hell wouldn't want that. Their choice and if it's a friend of mine, i'll support her all along the way.

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Master_Guyute
As for abortion, i'm for it. Let a woman do with her body whatever she wants, it's none of my business what she decides to do. Some cases about if it's an accident or whatnot is wrong, but say a lady is raped or something. What if she doesn't want the child out there, reminding her of that? I know i sure as hell wouldn't want that. Their choice and if it's a friend of mine, i'll support her all along the way.

I've never understood the rape excuse for abortion. Let's create a scenario here: a white, middle class woman (we'll make her white and middle class since this improves the odds of the police actually investigating the crime) is raped while walking to a pay phone at night after her car breaks down (this scenario removes any assumption that she is partially at fault - no promiscuity or date rape for this example). No let's also assume that the police actually capture the perp and he is arrested and put in jail (just to keep things simple, even though he would likely get assigned a lawyer and the case would drag on for years). The woman gets pregnant from this and gets an abortion.

Now let's do the math here: the woman spends the next several years in counseling and living in fear. The rapist spends the next several years watching TV, getting a college education and drawing a paycheck only to be released on good behavior. So far the only person to be executed for this crime is the fetus who had no control over who his father was or how he/she was concieved. Doesn't something sound a little wrong with that?

I believe that once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is a human life. No question in my mind. And yes, this is 100% based on my belief in God. I will never deny my beliefs for the sake of political correctness. And a woman's freedom to sleep with every guy she wants (aka: a slut) is no excuse for commiting murder in the name of convenience.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
09-29-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I've never understood the rape excuse for abortion. Let's create a scenario here: a white, middle class woman (we'll make her white and middle class since this improves the odds of the police actually investigating the crime) is raped while walking to a pay phone at night after her car breaks down (this scenario removes any assumption that she is partially at fault - no promiscuity or date rape for this example). No let's also assume that the police actually capture the perp and he is arrested and put in jail (just to keep things simple, even though he would likely get assigned a lawyer and the case would drag on for years). The woman gets pregnant from this and gets an abortion.

Now let's do the math here: the woman spends the next several years in counseling and living in fear. The rapist spends the next several years watching TV, getting a college education and drawing a paycheck only to be released on good behavior. So far the only person to be executed for this crime is the fetus who had no control over who his father was or how he/she was concieved. Doesn't something sound a little wrong with that?

I believe that once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is a human life. No question in my mind. And yes, this is 100% based on my belief in God. I will never deny my beliefs for the sake of political correctness. And a woman's freedom to sleep with every guy she wants (aka: a slut) is no excuse for commiting murder in the name of convenience.

That's really nifty and all that you believe in God. I believe in God too, but i'm still pro-choice. I'm not going to get into a huge theological debate here purely on the fact that i have mixed feelings about religion. I don't practice it much because many things in the Bible tend to get cut up, rehashed and given out to a following that will accept all purely on the fact somebody else says its true. You also chose a very happy scenario with the rapist getting an education and getting out and yadda yadda, but fact of the matter is that most rape cases don't get reported due to fear and the public response, so more than likely, the rapist is never caught. I respect your views and whatnot, but i'm stil pro-choice.

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Master_Guyute


That's really nifty and all that you believe in God. I believe in God too, but i'm still pro-choice. I'm not going to get into a huge theological debate here purely on the fact that i have mixed feelings about religion. I don't practice it much because many things in the Bible tend to get cut up, rehashed and given out to a following that will accept all purely on the fact somebody else says its true. You also chose a very happy scenario with the rapist getting an education and getting out and yadda yadda, but fact of the matter is that most rape cases don't get reported due to fear and the public response, so more than likely, the rapist is never caught. I respect your views and whatnot, but i'm stil pro-choice.

That's fine, I respect your position. As long as we all respect each others views, there is no reason to let this degenerate into a flame-war. And I did purposely choose a happy-ending, TV show style scenario to boil my point down.

I really disagree with the labels that have been attached to abortion, though: pro-choice and pro-life. If asked, I would say that I am pro-choice and pro-life. I like choices and I like life, but what does that have to do with abortion? The idea that being pro-choice equals being pro-abortion is nothing but divisive propaganda. I am anti-abortion/murder and pro-choice, no need to attach these feel good labels to sugarcoat the issue.

QLD
09-29-2002, 02:48 PM
Is it really better to force a person to be a mother who doesn't want to be one?

If they don't want a child, what kind of upbringing are they going to get?

They are going to be neglected physically, emotionally.....abused, un-loved, held in contempt.....

Yeah, we definately need more people to grow up like that.

To enforce abortion laws if they were passed, would be extremely difficult. There would be more women leaving the country to have them done. More women falling down stairs. More men pushing women down stairs, or even murdering the women (and child). There would be more women jamming coathangers into their uteris.

While I find it a shame that some women use it as a form of birth control, I DO believe STRONGLY that the morning after pill is the best solution for everybody on both sides.

I find it ironic that most people who oppose abortion, also oppose the morning after pill......

Also, if the women lose their rights once they become pregnant....should we also enforce them to not smoke or drink (or anything else that COULd potentially harm the unborn child)?


Just random thoughts here......

But maybe we should get back on the death penalty subject.......

Maybe they should have trap doors at the trial.....and if they are found guilty, the family of the victoms gets to pull the lever.....

and they could jazz it up with different things in the trap door.....

sharks....lions.....alligators.....hydrochloric acid......ants.....

Think of the possibilities :crazed:

Tycho
09-29-2002, 03:53 PM
How about a Rancor Monster?

Somebody was going to say it...

But Jabba the Hutt does hold court on Tatooine. And people are killed without an appeal if it is politically expedient for those in power.

Is a district attorney worried about re-election at all comparable to a Hutt crimelord?

"Weigh in the situation ;) " - I had to say that too.

2-1B
09-29-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
I find it ironic that most people who oppose abortion, also oppose the morning after pill......

Well, the argument is made that a fertilized egg is a human being, so I disagree that it's ironic because I find it quite consistent with pro-life beliefs. :)

But as far as the gruesomeness involved, RU486 is certainly more tidy. ;)

JON9000
09-29-2002, 05:57 PM
Ah- you all touch upon the issue that is central to the argument- when is human life no longer potential- when is it life? Some say conception, some viability, some the moment of quickening, and some the moment of birth. Others argue that the sperm and egg represent a potential life, and any attempt to interfere with the natural process possibly extinguishes human life.

Since most of these views are religious in nature, a states adoption of one could be viewed as an endorsement of one. Since the establishment clause forbids that, it can be argued states have no right to outlaw abortion (or birth control.)

2-1B
09-29-2002, 06:06 PM
True Jon,
because even scientists can't seem to agree on "when life begins" . . . so yeah I guess a lot of it is a religious thing.

As far as the legality of it, I think that's why the pro-life movement focuses especially on late term abortion where there isn't as much of a 'gray area' . . . I've talked to many 'pro-choice' people are just disgusted by partial-birth abortion, so while I don't think there's ever a real hope that abortion in general will be banned, I do believe people will keep efforts going to restrict it. :)

JON9000
09-29-2002, 06:24 PM
If it makes anyone out there feel better, the VAST majority of abortions occur during the first trimester. Thankfully, partial birth abortions in the second trimester are very rare, and are usually undertaken to protect the health of the mother.

I cannot help but to emphasize the mother's health issue. I have read BigB's opinion that believe rape (and I assume incest) should not be a rational for abortion. What if the mother's health is in jeopardy?

stillakid
09-29-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I believe that once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is a human life. No question in my mind. And yes, this is 100% based on my belief in God.


I believe the exact same thing, only based on science and common sense. If in doubt, I'd only ask someone to look at a baby just born 60 seconds prior to one who is to be born just 60 seconds from now. The only two differences in them are that one is inside the mother and the other is out. The other difference is that one is connected to the mother and the other is not. Now if a person feels that the one just ready to be born is not eligible for abortion for any reason, then I would have to ask what makes that "fetus" any different from one that is ready to be born in 2 minutes from now. Keep backing the timeline up. 10 minutes...1 day...1 week...1 month...3 months...6 months...nine months. Backtrack it one day...no, one minute at a time. At what moment in those nine months precisely does it become life? It's easy to look at photos of a fetus at nine months and compare it to a fetus at one week and say, "Aha! it doesn't even look like a baby, therefore it can't possibly be life." But take the test above. Backtrack the process, slowly, methodically, and make that choice, find that magic moment that defines when life begins. The answer is that there isn't any, besides either the moment of conception or the moment of birth. Any other choice is purely arbitrary based entirely on convenience.

Having said that, I'm not stating my views either way on abortion. Just stating my pov on "viability." :) It's a horrible thing for everyone involved. It's a difficult situation with many facets and there is no easy answer.

JON9000
09-29-2002, 07:32 PM
Following that logic, if one subscribes to the notion of evolution (which I do), we were human beings even as basic biological units in the primordial soup. Just back our evolutionary history up in 2 minute intervals. ;)

stillakid
09-29-2002, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by JON9000
Following that logic, if one subscribes to the notion of evolution (which I do), we were human beings even as basic biological units in the primordial soup. Just back our evolutionary history up in 2 minute intervals. ;)

You could be right! As we have no solid chain to follow back, then maybe. ;)

But your example is of course nonsensical. Apples and Oranges. We're not talking about evolution. We're talking about reproduction. If you need help with that, head over to http://www.dictionary.com :)

bigbarada
09-29-2002, 09:18 PM
JON9000 pointed something out to me in PM, that my post was easily misinterpreted to mean that I believed women were at fault in rape and only women should be held to the standard of abstinence. I'm glad he mentioned it, because I didn't intend to imply that at all.

I don't believe a woman is at fault during rape, since it is also the resposibility of the man to know when to control himself in the cases of date rape. And my standard of abstinence from ALL sex until marriage is something that I myself live by. I am still a virgin at 29 and plan to stay that way until my wedding night.

As for the questions of what happens if the pregnancy is a threat to the mother's life. Well that is where faith in God comes in. Leave it in His hands and you are guaranteed that His will is carried out. That doesn't necessarily mean that everything will come out to our favor, though. My only recommendation would be lots and lots of prayer.

To kind of add to stillakid's comments, I heard a news story on the radio about a woman who was arrested for murder because she put her two week old baby in a dumpster and let him die. The radio DJ made an interesting comment that if she had only killed the baby one month earlier it would have been perfectly legal.

QLD
09-30-2002, 12:41 AM
I am just glad we don't have extreme pro-choice activists bombing hospital nurserys.

plasticfetish
10-01-2002, 02:25 AM
<Oooof.> What do I believe?

"The Death Penalty: Yes or No????"

I believe that how a society deals with the punishment of its criminals is one of the greatest testaments to the success or failure of that society as a whole. If we have to kill our failures in order to advance our species, then how civilized are we truly?

I'll answer my own question. Fact is, I generally do not believe in the death penalty. But, I know that if my child or my wife were the victims of a violent crime ... I would no doubt be moved to seek revenge. I am at heart a pacifist. I have never (well, once in the 3rd grade) done violence against another person out of anger or for any reason. I am proud of this and would see it as a total personal failure on my part if I were forced to be otherwise. So, why would I seek revenge? Because I am human and I am by nature generally weak. I am at heart an animal and my animal instinct would be to seek revenge.

I'm not being sarcastic. The point I'm making is ... we decide as a society just how "civilized" we are willing to be. When it comes to judging the relative "value" of human life ... be it the death penalty or abortion ... we are, as a group and a people, determining just how far from being animals that we would like to evolve (or prove that we are). Honestly, in some cases maybe we decide that we are perfectly comfortable with killing, that we are totally comfortable with our primitive instincts. But it is always hypocrisy to associate killing with morality in any fashion.

Do I believe that abortion is a decent solution to any problem?
No.
I think again, that it is a social failure. To kill an unborn child is a simple statement that we have failed as a people. Again, who is responsible for that failure? We ALL are.
I suppose I'll hear this ... "Well, I'm anti abortion ... I didn't have anything to do with it. Not me."
I won't buy that excuse from anyone. Are you a member of this society? What other solutions did you offer? What kind of aid did you give to that mother (or father) to ensure that the child could/would be born and would live to grow up happy and healthy? Again ... hypocrisy is having a moral opinion and yet, having or offering no fair alternative or solution to the problem. What I find most criminal, is people or persons that are willing to give 100% of their moral energy to simply ranting about how "wrong" something is ... and yet they are totally unwilling to address the causes and reasons for those problems. The good fight is always one of prevention. Change the environments that promote these human failures (even just a little) and you've done the best service that you can to your society.

<Oooof.>
"An eye for an eye."
"Thou shalt not kill."
I suppose it all depends on what you truly believe the consequences of either decision might be.
Me, I believe that ultimately we all pay for our decisions in some manner. I'm not really sure how ... but I don't doubt that we have these choices for a reason.

JON9000
10-01-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


You could be right! As we have no solid chain to follow back, then maybe. ;)

But your example is of course nonsensical. Apples and Oranges. We're not talking about evolution. We're talking about reproduction. If you need help with that, head over to http://www.dictionary.com :)

Since you find the arguments consistent, why worry about their "nonsensical" (of course) nature? As for the dictionary, I would not dream of robbing you of the opportunity to explain the difference to me in the most condescending of terms. So by all means, explain to all of us- as if we were still kids, too.

No, seriously- your interval method does make sense, I just wanted to point out a wrinkle.

The Overlord Returns
10-01-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I've never understood the rape excuse for abortion. Let's create a scenario here: a white, middle class woman (we'll make her white and middle class since this improves the odds of the police actually investigating the crime) is raped while walking to a pay phone at night after her car breaks down (this scenario removes any assumption that she is partially at fault - no promiscuity or date rape for this example). No let's also assume that the police actually capture the perp and he is arrested and put in jail (just to keep things simple, even though he would likely get assigned a lawyer and the case would drag on for years). The woman gets pregnant from this and gets an abortion.

Now let's do the math here: the woman spends the next several years in counseling and living in fear. The rapist spends the next several years watching TV, getting a college education and drawing a paycheck only to be released on good behavior. So far the only person to be executed for this crime is the fetus who had no control over who his father was or how he/she was concieved. Doesn't something sound a little wrong with that?

I believe that once the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is a human life. No question in my mind. And yes, this is 100% based on my belief in God. I will never deny my beliefs for the sake of political correctness. And a woman's freedom to sleep with every guy she wants (aka: a slut) is no excuse for commiting murder in the name of convenience.

It's not an excuse. The woman had no control over being impregnated as some @$$hole was raping her. She SHOULD NOT have to deliver an unwanted child that will be a constant reminder of a horrible, painful, humiliating event. End of story.

sith_killer_99
10-02-2002, 10:05 PM
Well, I can tell you all from experience that a child born from RAPE can grow-up in a nurturing and loving environment.

My older sister is the product of RAPE.

She is also my closest and dearest sibling! I was 12 years old when I found out about my sister. My mother already had her when she met my father. He knew what had happened before they were married. He chose to love her and accept her as his own daughter, and NOONE ever questioned that.

SO the arguement is a cop out IMO...it all come down to a persons character. I thank GOD every day that my mother was a strong woman, and that she didn't murder my sister before she was born...back when she was a few "cells".

I will admit, that it takes a strong woman to handle that sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't EXPECT every woman to suffer that burden in the same circumstance. But it's something to think about.

Just because a person is born of rape, that dosen't mean that they can't live a full productive and healthy life. My sister certainly has.

I also know a woman who went through an abortion. It devestated her! She simply wasn't prepared for the emotional and psychological aspects of having an abortion. A couple of years later she had a son, and he died of S.I.D.S. To this day she wonders if GOD was punishing her for the pervious abortion.

Trust me when I say that abortion is a burden NO woman should have to endure, and one that they cannot full comprehend until it is too late.

Just my 2 cents.

The Overlord Returns
10-03-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
Well, I can tell you all from experience that a child born from RAPE can grow-up in a nurturing and loving environment.

My older sister is the product of RAPE.

She is also my closest and dearest sibling! I was 12 years old when I found out about my sister. My mother already had her when she met my father. He knew what had happened before they were married. He chose to love her and accept her as his own daughter, and NOONE ever questioned that.

SO the arguement is a cop out IMO...it all come down to a persons character. I thank GOD every day that my mother was a strong woman, and that she didn't murder my sister before she was born...back when she was a few "cells".

I will admit, that it takes a strong woman to handle that sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't EXPECT every woman to suffer that burden in the same circumstance. But it's something to think about.

Just because a person is born of rape, that dosen't mean that they can't live a full productive and healthy life. My sister certainly has.

I also know a woman who went through an abortion. It devestated her! She simply wasn't prepared for the emotional and psychological aspects of having an abortion. A couple of years later she had a son, and he died of S.I.D.S. To this day she wonders if GOD was punishing her for the pervious abortion.

Trust me when I say that abortion is a burden NO woman should have to endure, and one that they cannot full comprehend until it is too late.

Just my 2 cents.

I think that is absolutely incredible, and that your mother is indeed a very strong woman.

However, like you said, not everyone is that strong, and should NOT be expected to bear that burden. Thus, it is not a cop out.

I've also known women who've been through abortions. Actually, myself and a former partner went through it ourselves. It isn't easy, and it is definitely trying on the woman physically and mentally, but again, some deal with it better than others.

Bottom line is, it's a choice that needs to be there.

BTW, tell her God wasn't punishing her. Besides, any god that vengeful isn't worth believeing in.