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View Full Version : THE ECONOMY: what should bush do???



derek
10-09-2002, 06:00 PM
since the "iraq debate" has been on the top of the president's adgenda, many, mostly democrats, have been saying the president is neglecting the economy. people like algore have recently devoted whole speeches to ripping bush on his handling of the economy, but offered no solutions.

the only suggestions i have heard the democrats give, who are making the most noise regarding this issue,(for pure political reasons) are extended unemployment benefits and some sort of help to "small business".

i personally am no fan of bush, but i do not think he is responsible for the so called "recession". it has been well documented that the economy began it's downturn in the last 2 years of clinton's last term. but regardless, it's not my intention to place blame on bush or clinton, but discuss what can bush do, if anything, to "help" the economy?

my suggestions if asked would be:

1. massive tax cuts. not this goofy $300/$500 check per family. i would levy a flat tax of 10% on all income over $50,000. the first $50,000 is tax free. let's see any liberal oppose tax cuts for the poor or working man.;)

2. social security would be optional. those already on it would continue to get a check, those who want out, regardless of their age, would never have to pay in again, but they could never get the benefits.

3. eliminate "franchise" taxes on small business, along with taxing their inventories. eliminate all corprate income taxes. only individuals pay taxes.

4. eliminate all property taxes

there you have it. in a nutshell, massive tax cuts for EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE RICH.:) with people able to actually keep the majority of their incomes, more goods and services would be in demand, thus creating more jobs, thus boosting the economy. :)

so what would you suggest? a tax increase like most democrats are in favor of, but afraid to admit? more unemployment benefits?
some other big government program? if you do suggest such a course, elabortate on how this increase in government spending would actually boost our sagging economy.:)

JON9000
10-09-2002, 07:11 PM
I think the gravest threat to the economy is low investor confidence in American markets, I therefore suggest that criminal executives be sent to Pelican Bay State Prison instead of the honor farm.

The integrity of a company's financial statement is fundamental to confidence. It is the instrument by which investors decide whether or not to buy. Many of us are tied up in 401(k) plans, but corporate investing and foreign investment dries up pretty quickly if it appears the American Government is not serious about demanding Corporate America operate in an honest manner.

I have already expressed my views on the tax system, probably to the point of everyones' nauseousness, so I won't go there again. But freeing up capital is a worthy goal to a degree- that is why the fed keeps lowering interest rates- same effect.

QLD
10-09-2002, 07:57 PM
Make prostituion legal, very well regulated, and put a 25% sin tax on it.



Increase sin taxes on alcohol and cigarettes to 25%.

Honestly, I am not an economist. I don't know what I am talking about, but I think the above would generate a ton of income. :crazed:

Exhaust Port
10-09-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by derek
since the "iraq debate" has been on the top of the president's adgenda, many, mostly democrats, have been saying the president is neglecting the economy.

This is the exact same scenerio that cost his dad a re-election. Let's see if he learns from his dad's mistakes.

derek
10-09-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port


This is the exact same scenerio that cost his dad a re-election. Let's see if he learns from his dad's mistakes.

G.H.W. Bush lost because he went back on a pledge not to raise taxes, made a lot of republicans mad, and 19% of them voted for ross perot. if bush hadn't gone back on that pledge, he would of been re-elected.

Exhaust Port
10-09-2002, 09:04 PM
If you remember though in his attempt to save an economy he raised taxes. GWB is trying to save our economy, what will he do? His dad was riding the wave of support from his Gulf success and spend the remaining year dealing with foreign affairs and traveling abroad. After the war was over our economy still sucked and the population could give a rats behind about foreign affairs. "Remember the Gulf" didn't give daddy a job. GWB has a lathargic economy and is concentrating on foreign affairs. Wars don't give daddy a job. Not saying that those foreign affairs aren't important but when it comes to who to vote for when standing in that voting booth people are going to vote for whoever will give daddy a job, not who saved some country 10,000 miles away.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
10-09-2002, 09:50 PM
Tax cuts during recessions are a good way to stimulate the economy BUT--I come from the school where if you decide to cut taxes and thus decrease your revenue--you must hold the line on spending. Neither Bush or Congress has shown that most important step. As a result, we have returned to budget defecits in Washington again after turning in surpluses for six years or so. The federal debt which grew enormously under Reagan and Bush, stablized under Clinton. It is now growing again under Bush II.

That is one problem with Washington and the GOPers--they sprinkle tax cuts around like fairy dust for everyone. They need to think about the consequences of their action. They passed about $1.3 trillion dollars in tax cuts last year and the House leadership craves more. Yet, everyone in Washington, from the presidency, to the Democrats and Republicans want increased $$$ for the budgets on education, security, healthcare, etc. Increased budget defecits mean one thing-- The highest percentage of your tax dollars goes not to welfare, to the military, to spending on healthcare or Senior Citizens, but to pay off the interest on our massive debt--a payment to some bank in Japan or Germany.. As our defecit increases, so does our share of tax dollars to the national debt. As of now, the average family pays around 21% of their taxes to interest on the debt. That is money that can go to education, the military, etc.

We had a chance during those huge surpluses of the late 1990's to pay off a good chunk of that +5 trillion dollar debt--instead it went mainly to that massive tax cut Bush rallied for (and everyone knows that the rich share most of the burden on taxes--so it is no surprise that they got the majority of the tax cut).

The Democrats when they won the presidency in 1992 after 12 years of GOP rule, passed a tax increase that though unpopular, and cost the party control of both the House and Senate, helped stablize our fiscal policy. While I will not blame Bush for this economic downturn, I think he could have shored up the defecit problem instead of making it worse.

The funny thing was--up until the Kennedy administration--we had always balanced the budget for the federal governement. In our country's 225 year history, we have been debt free for 190 years. This is sorta of a new thing in our nation's history, and a problem that needs to be addressed.

Exhaust Port
10-09-2002, 10:26 PM
War's cost money. You can't decrease tax revenue when you are running a war. This is why Bush 1 had to increase taxes post-Gulf war. Entering an war at this time will not increase jobs it will only increase spending by the gov't. So it's bound to happen if we should go toe-to-toe with Iraq that our gov't will be forced to tighten it's purse string and perhaps raise taxes. No matter what I don't see big breaks for us this next tax season.

derek
10-15-2002, 04:36 PM
democrat house minority leader little dick gephardt just came out today in favor of tax cuts. unbelievable!:confused: these are the same people who blame the recession on tax cuts.:) just goes to show tax cuts are the way to stimulate an economy.;)

2-1B
10-16-2002, 02:13 AM
I kinda like QLD's idea - the part about prostitution being legal, NOT the part about taxing it.

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I kinda like QLD's idea - the part about prostitution being legal, NOT the part about taxing it.

but....the only real benefit to legalizing prostitution IS to tax the revenue. Make money for services off of the industry, just like any other industry.....they won't do it just so men don't have to worry about being arrested for going to hookers.

Exhaust Port
10-16-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
.....they won't do it just so men don't have to worry about being arrested for going to hookers.

Not only that but it would allow it to be controlled and have everyone involved tested for AIDS. Legalizing it would probably slow the spread of STD's, etc.

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 01:14 PM
You could also legalize Marijuana.....and sell it in stores. Just like tobacco. Revenue right there....

Exhaust Port
10-16-2002, 02:05 PM
Right now the last thing we need is another legalized drug.

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Right now the last thing we need is another legalized drug.

Little confused.....what drug has recently been legalized that makes you say you don't need another?

And surely you're not suggesting that marijuana is a drug that seriously needs to be illegal?

2-1B
10-16-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
but....the only real benefit to legalizing prostitution IS to tax the revenue. Make money for services off of the industry, just like any other industry.....they won't do it just so men don't have to worry about being arrested for going to hookers.

You don't consider freely available sex-for-money to be a real benefit? :confused:

:D

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 02:40 PM
heh....erm......no...I mean ...I have a girlfriend who'll give it up for free.... ;)

Exhaust Port
10-16-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Little confused.....what drug has recently been legalized that makes you say you don't need another?

Alcohol and tobacco.


And surely you're not suggesting that marijuana is a drug that seriously needs to be illegal?

There are enough problems in our society from people and the use of alcohol. Violence, automobile accidents, dependancy issues, destruction of families, etc. Sure marijuana might not be any more lethal than alcohol but that doesn't justify making it available to everyone when we have enough problems with just alcohol as it is. It's enough trouble dealing with alcohol related issues as it is, why would adding another drug to our society make it all better?

It's just a small group of people who get some jollies off smoking one particular plant that want to have it legalized. What's the benefit other than less people being arrested for possession or use?

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port


Alcohol and tobacco.



There are enough problems in our society from people and the use of alcohol. Violence, automobile accidents, dependancy issues, destruction of families, etc. Sure marijuana might not be any more lethal than alcohol but that doesn't justify making it available to everyone when we have enough problems with just alcohol as it is. It's enough trouble dealing with alcohol related issues as it is, why would adding another drug to our society make it all better?

It's just a small group of people who get some jollies off smoking one particular plant that want to have it legalized. What's the benefit other than less people being arrested for possession or use?

Hmmm.........

alcohol and tobacco have been available for decades....and tobacco, to my knowledge has EVER been illegal.

Alcohol use needs to be controlled better than it is. Still, marijuan is a harmless drug that produces a short high with minimal effects, accept for standard brain cell depletion and lung damage. It's not something that is going to become an epidemic. It isn't an addictive drug. I've also never heard a reported case of some horrible tragedy happening as a result of a nights toking gone awry.

The benefits would be many. First, it can be taxed. Second, it can be used for medicinal purposes. Third, hemp would be legal, and hemp has MANY, MANY uses beyond being smoked.....

derek
10-16-2002, 04:41 PM
I have a girlfriend who'll give it up for free

nothing is free, didn't you read tycho's thread?;)

and i'm the only one who can hi-jack threads!!! dang it.:crazed:

now how about that economy?

speaking of hookers, did anyone see that show on HBO about "women of the night" who work the streets? that is one pitiful life. those women are so sad, and not very pretty either. they'd have to pay me!:eek:

Exhaust Port
10-16-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I've also never heard a reported case of some horrible tragedy happening as a result of a nights toking gone awry.

I think I remember past accidents of boats, cars and maybe even one airplane where decision making was impared for the operator was under the influence of "toking" the night away. Of course it depends on what your definition of horrible is.


The benefits would be many. First, it can be taxed. Second, it can be used for medicinal purposes. Third, hemp would be legal, and hemp has MANY, MANY uses beyond being smoked.....

The ability for something to be taxed doesn't justify it.

I have no problem with medicinal purposes but I'm sure that our medical industry could produce the active ingrediant of marijuana if it was that much of a concern. I'm sure those guys who ditched high school to smoke it out by the track would be bummed if they took the fun out of "toking." I'll ask them the next time I'm at burger king.

I been to 2 Hempfests in my time and man am I suprised of the concern of the pro-marijuana crowd has for our nations supply of rope material, ship sail material, burlap sack material and even shore errosion. I know the last time I lost a sail when my rope broke I was cursing the MAN for keeping hemp from me.

QLD
10-16-2002, 08:37 PM
DOPE is for DOPES.

2-1B
10-17-2002, 01:36 AM
That's a pretty dope slogan ! :D
----------------------------------------



derek, yes I did see HBO's "Hookers at the Point", it was heartbreaking. :cry: They recently did a 5 year followup, which I think was beneficial because it showed how trapping that situation becomes . . . at least for the people who are still alive. :cry:

The Overlord Returns
10-17-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
DOPE is for DOPES.

Were you a writer for ABC's afterschool specials?

The Overlord Returns
10-17-2002, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port


I think I remember past accidents of boats, cars and maybe even one airplane where decision making was impared for the operator was under the influence of "toking" the night away. Of course it depends on what your definition of horrible is.



The ability for something to be taxed doesn't justify it.

I have no problem with medicinal purposes but I'm sure that our medical industry could produce the active ingrediant of marijuana if it was that much of a concern. I'm sure those guys who ditched high school to smoke it out by the track would be bummed if they took the fun out of "toking." I'll ask them the next time I'm at burger king.

I been to 2 Hempfests in my time and man am I suprised of the concern of the pro-marijuana crowd has for our nations supply of rope material, ship sail material, burlap sack material and even shore errosion. I know the last time I lost a sail when my rope broke I was cursing the MAN for keeping hemp from me. [/B]

Man.....what's with the hatred of the pot smokers?

This notion many people seem to have that pot smokers are all layabouts and highschool dropouts working at "burger king" is as much of a stereotype as the one about fanboy "geeks" like us all live in our parents basements at the age of 30...... it's rather ridiculous.

Pot smokers generally smoke it rather infrequently. I know very few "potheads" that fit the actual mould of always being high. Myself, I have done many a drug in my time, and I'm certainly not burned out and working at burger king. I'm a freelance writer who makes a nice little wad of cash working in high end software sales. I smoke.....but not all that often. Still, it'd be nice to not have to hunt down a dealer when the mood strikes me ;)

As for the medicinal pot use....it's the effect of the pot that actually helps. It is the high that eases the pain. And, unlike prescription, legal drugs, pot isn't addictive.

And for alternative uses for hemp, there's studies that show the use of hemp paper, if widespread, would drastically decrease over forresting and over cutting, which is great for the environment. Wasn't thinking so much about "hemp rope"....;)

Exhaust Port
10-17-2002, 10:29 AM
Maybe your the exception but every person that I know that became a user of pot has spent the last decade out of high school being a drag on society. My impression of what a pot smoker is isn't ridiculous since what I've stated is exactly what my experience has been.

The Overlord Returns
10-17-2002, 11:07 AM
I might suggest that if you take the pot out of the equation, these people would still be layabouts and work at burger king. They choose to be lazy, and do nothing. If it wasn't pot that they discovered, it would be booze, or comics....or what have you....

QLD
10-17-2002, 11:22 AM
Hmmm....well, I feel the same way about pot as I do cigarettes and alcohol. I think we could do just fine without them.

Pot may not be as addictive as coke, or crack.....

BUT, pot is a gateway drug. Meaning that about 50% of people who smoke pot, also then go on to do coke, heroin, lsd, crack, ecstacy.......and so forth.

yes, i believe that some people just take a toke every now and then, and get along fine, but most do not in my opinion. Especially the ones who end up homeless, and addicted to crack 10 years after they started with pot.

And honestly, I don't have that much sympathy for them, because they made the moronic choice of smoking pot to begin with.

The Overlord Returns
10-17-2002, 11:33 AM
you know....I know a ridiculous amount of pot smokers......yet,....I don't know anyone of them that has touched crack, or coke, or heroin......

then again...I do know some seemingly well respected members of society that do coke, and crack, and heroin.......this notion that drug users are all huddled in squat housing and dark corners doing their drugs is one usually put forth by people who've never actually been near any sort of counter culture......it's a stereotype, again....

There will always be drug abusers.....addicts are sick, and need help with addictions ( and that does not mean prison, where they can have a drug parade behind bars every day).... then again...there are people ruining their lives everyday with overeating........perhaps fast food and super size meals should be outlawed too...

QLD
10-17-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
[B]you know....I know a ridiculous amount of pot smokers......yet,....I don't know anyone of them that has touched crack, or coke, or heroin......

Maybe they do, and you don't know :eek: How long have they been smoking pot? 1, 5, 10 years? It's not going to happen to all of them, but a lot.


then again...I do know some seemingly well respected members of society that do coke, and crack, and heroin.......this notion that drug users are all huddled in squat housing and dark corners doing their drugs is one usually put forth by people who've never actually been near any sort of counter culture......it's a stereotype, again....

It's a definite stereotype. I believe that there are just as many people in high society that do it as well, they just aren't as obvious as the ones who have hit rock bottom, that we see every day. They aren't any better.




There will always be abusers. Some people cannot cope with everyday life, and think they must escape into the world of high. If you need pot, etc. to take your worries away, then maybe you should examine the source of your problems, instead of wasting your time on drugs.

So with addicts what do we do? Do we send them to jail run with our tax dollars? Send them to rehab run by our tax dollars? I think the answer lies in between. Throw them in an isolated rubber padded cell, make them go cold turkey for a very long time, and feed them 3 times a day, and let them go after they have gotten it out of their system. Now this sounds a little ridiculous, and would never happen, but our current methods of rehanb appear to be a joke.



Jail only works for people who aren't addicts yet, and rehab on works for those who really WANT to get better, which most don't.

I wouldn't mind seeing some measures taken against fast food places. They could make health regulations for the food they serve.....or limit the number of available places in a particular zone....or make a large sin tax for all fast food. Food addiction can be just as dangerous as drugs for the individual. And the same rehab type procedure would probably be very effective as well.

2-1B
10-17-2002, 01:55 PM
If you wanna be cool, stay in school.

The Overlord Returns
10-17-2002, 02:14 PM
Most I've known for many years...some over a decade....then again....they do know I'd beat the living daylights out of them if they ever hit the hard drugs...;)

Exhaust Port
10-18-2002, 04:16 PM
I just haven't heard a strong argument FOR legalizing marijuana. I don't care for the medicinal argument as the legalization crowd isn't only concerned for that <1% of the population but for legalizing it for everyone. For that reason I think it's a very selfish stance. Every bit of propoganda that I've been given, read, heard or watched starts on the platform of helping the sick but it then turns the argument towards allowing its use for everyone.

"People are suffering and they need this drug. It's not addictive and will help those that are suffering. Legalize it so they can be helped."

-then-

"Because it's helping the sick and it's not addictive it should be legal for everyone to use this drug. We all want to feel good and we swear not to become dependant or ask for any other drug to be legalized."

Marijuana is a drug. You might not want to believe that it's a true drug but it is. I truly believe and so do many other people that marijuana users can't be trusted to be "occasional users" or better society for allowing access to another drug. Look at the extent to which people will go to use this drug. People have been fined huge amounts of money, imprisoned or even killed for the simple fact that they want to have this drug. Has this deterred anyone from not using?

I don't care what you say, anyone who's willing to risk their financial future, their freedom or even possibly their life for the chance of using a simple drug such as Marijuana just goes to show that this drug has a hold on people. Perhaps it's not the same physical addition at the heavier drugs but it's ends up having a mental addiction for the user.

Why don't you steal from a supermarket? Because you know it's wrong? Because you understand the reprocussions for those actions? Sure, that's what helps keep society on the straight and narrow for the most part.

What about someone who routinely steals from stores and has both a full understanding of what's right and knows the punishments. That person has a problem.

So we have a very small portion of the society that want to legalize an act that they do already that is against the law and has/can have some stiff penalties against it. They swear that it's not addictive and that it's doesn't affect one's judgement long term even thought they've been doing it for 10 years and can't help but break the law.


I'm sorry but it'll be a cold day in hell before society listens to a bunch of pot-heads.

The Overlord Returns
10-18-2002, 04:38 PM
lol...and yet we'll listen to our governments... ;)

The 'Xir
10-19-2002, 02:06 AM
What should Bush do? Hhmm let's see here...How about resign!!! and I'm a registered Republican...go figure!
Just like an invading Ceasar, Daddy and all his oil friends are drivin this war with Iraq, and well end up spending the same amount of money on the war as we'll probably save once we..err.. Daddy and all his oil friends have control of the oil fields. Then the American people will just get screwed anyways because they'll be regulating the prices at the pump! The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!!!

derek
10-19-2002, 10:05 AM
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer!!!

sorry 'Xir, but no republican would ever say something like that.:crazed: :greedy:

The 'Xir
10-19-2002, 02:21 PM
Well I did say I was a 'registered' Republican, however I'm sure middle class republicans and poorer have probably uttered those same words at some time or another. Remember there's only an upper 5 percentile of wealthy or rich Americans! Which Daddy and all his oil friends are probably apart of! And as far as I know Oprah is a Democrat!:cool: