PDA

View Full Version : Big Continuity Issue...



The 'Xir
10-28-2001, 11:57 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed but in Ep IV ROTJ, as 3po and R2 approach Jabba's palace their conversation consists of roughly this: R2: bleep pleep bleeep, 3po: "don't be so sure, if I told you half the things I've heard about this Jabba the Hutt, you'd probably short circut!".
Well, Mr McCullum and Mr. Lucas better sit down and discuss how they're going to incorporate this into Ep II or III, because TPM destroyed the continuity of this scene in "Return"!
Because How could R2 and 3po not know who Jabba is when 30 years before they were at the Boonta Eve podrace hosted by none other than...! Especially seeing as the 2 headed announcers..well.. announce to the whole stadium Jabba's arrival in his private booth!
I'm assuming the easiest way to handle this would be; the on screen explanation of routine Droid memory wipes as mentioned by Owen Lars in ANH. ex) "I want you to take those two new droids down to tosche station and have their memories erased, they belong to us now"!
what do you guys think?

Bel-Cam Jos
10-29-2001, 12:02 AM
Maybe (why do all our topics usually begin with that word? ;) ) Jabba is such a galaxy-wide evil crime lord that if even if Threepio and R2 get frequent memory wipes, his influence in the universe means they find out more information all the time. Besides, they might not have known Jabba was the race's host, or at least not really cared if they had known. I don't think this is such a "Big continuity error," 'Xir.

Eternal Padawan
10-29-2001, 09:44 AM
Plus, you don't know what R2 is saying. ever. In theory R2 said: "Hey! it's that wonderful Jabba Chap. Remember him from the Boonta Eve race all those years ago? What a nice old guy..." And 3PO responding "if you heard all these things about Jabba, you'd probably short circuit...." and then R2 says. "What??! Nooooo... You're kidding!!! I had no Idea..."

JediTricks
10-29-2001, 11:05 AM
I think this has the potential to either cause a somewhat minor continuity error OR a cheap, poorly-thought-out excuse like "memory wipes for both droids" (cheap and poor IMO because the memory wipes would change the character's personas and we know from Ep 1 that these guys still act like this in ANH).

El Chuxter
10-29-2001, 03:34 PM
Did C-3PO say he'd actually met Jabba? Imagine you go to a Nascar race hosted by Al Capone (I know, big stretch, but bear with me). You probably won't care at the time, but years later, when you actually have to go before Capone and make demands, every scary story you've heard in the meantime will come to mind.

JediCole
10-29-2001, 08:52 PM
El Chuxter has touched very well upon the point I was going to make. Just because Jabba is at the race (as are R2 and 3PO) it does not mean that the droids even noticed. The 'Xir is making a rather broad based assumption. R2 and 3PO are not Commander "I recall every fact I am exposed to" Data from Star Trek. R2 is essentially a tool, a thinking tool, with some cognative ability to be sure, but a tool none the less. C-3PO, though he is more specialized for interactions between species, still would not retain a solid memory of every single snipit of information he overheard. These droids are not simply listening and regurgitating machines. They are not tape recorders or spy devices. They would be designed to stay even more focused on the specifics of thier tasks or the situation at hand than any human. Sure they probably both heard Jabba's name announced, and 3PO could almost certainly understand the announcement in both languages, but that does not mean that he paid the name any but the most passing interest. There is no need for a broad-based memory wipe when 3PO and R2's on board memory is probably automatically filtered, removing all of the unnecessary flotsum and jetsum of ambient hearing from the core memory. All those years later, the droids would have no more recollection of Jabba's presence at Boonta Eve than they would the roster of racers present that day. It is useless junk information that they would have let fall out of memory long before either of them needed even a routine memory wipe.

The 'Xir
10-30-2001, 02:56 AM
I don't know, all I gotta say is this is a great excuse to watch ROTJ again :) However when I watched that scene; it was just how it came across, it 'now' didn't seem to make sense. Watch it again for yourself and judge for yourself! Like you need another excuse right? ;)

JediTricks
10-31-2001, 11:07 AM
Ah! A 3rd alternative, what if 3PO's line in ROTJ is referring not to a general set of widely-circulated stories about the hutt crime lord, but actually referring to stories Han Solo and/or Chewbacca told him while R2 wasn't around? Wouldn't that solve the whole thing, with 3PO thinking he's heard "insider" stories that R2 wasn't privy to?

Bel-Cam Jos
10-31-2001, 07:37 PM
Or, the stories are tall tales, like Paul Bunyan or Sloo Foot Sue (sp?). For example:

"Did you hear that Jabba sells candy bars with razor blades in them?"
"I heard Jabba is really a woman!"
"Jabba has a third eye."
"Jabba once jumped over a landspeeder that was coming at him at full throttle, did a handstand on the back engine, and knitted a Mandalorian Armor suit while landing."
"I dated Jabba when he was in college and he couldn't drink a thimble full of jury juice!"

Or not.
Ore knot.
Oar naught.
:p

GNT
11-01-2001, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
"Did you hear that Jabba sells candy bars with razor blades in them?"
"I heard Jabba is really a woman!"
"Jabba has a third eye."
"Jabba once jumped over a landspeeder that was coming at him at full throttle, did a handstand on the back engine, and knitted a Mandalorian Armor suit while landing."
"I dated Jabba when he was in college and he couldn't drink a thimble full of jury juice!"

aaahhh some good signatures I could use ;)

Eternal Padawan
11-01-2001, 08:33 AM
Touche.;)



Why does every beverage in the Star Wars films have to be hard liquor? (Except blue milk) I think Juri Juice is the equivalent of Pepsi in the Star Wars galaxy. That's my new theory. Add it to the list.

JediTricks
11-02-2001, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
Why does every beverage in the Star Wars films have to be hard liquor? (Except blue milk) I think Juri Juice is the equivalent of Pepsi in the Star Wars galaxy. That's my new theory. Add it to the list. If you had to look at Dr Evizon's ugly mug all the time, you'd want to be as drunk as possible! ;)

BountyHunter
11-14-2001, 07:49 PM
Yeah, but it's not a case where C-3PO and R2 were actually sitting next to Jabba, they just see him. They don't know Jabba personally, so really Xir, it makes plenty of sense that 3PO says that. SO your big continuity gap, ain't so big.

sith_killer_99
11-14-2001, 09:15 PM
WOW, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but here goes.....

Does anybody remember Episode IV (A New Hope)?!?!

C-3PO and R2-D2 don't even remember TATOOINE!?!?

I am an avid reader of the Star Wars novels. :) It is common practice for droids, ESPECIALLY astromechs like R2-D2 to undergo memory wipes!:eek:

The reasoning behind it gets a little technical, so I won't go into it here.

However, it is pretty much a given that both droids will undergo memory wipes prior to ANH! As for 3PO hearing things about Jabba, who knows? Maybe he picked up some stories at Mos Eisley or something. Or he was listening to all the star pilots talk about him.


As for the droids "character"? Well, I think it's probably more like a hard wired set of instructions. The droid looses his memory, but maintains certain things. That way 3PO can have a memory wipe and still be fluent in over 6 million forms of communication. Kinda like having an L2 cach on your hard drive.;)

JediTricks
11-15-2001, 12:55 AM
SK99, what's to remember? C-3PO probably doesn't know that they're going to Tatooine so he certainly wouldn't know they LANDED on Tatooine, and it's not like Tatooine is SO specific-looking, it's just a dust bowl like a thousand different dust bowls. He may remember Tatooine fine, but not know he's ON that planet. Clearly R2 does know where he's going, though there's probably nothing about "memory" to that, more that Leia told him where to go.

stillakid
11-15-2001, 01:40 AM
Xir, don't worry, you are completely correct know matter how hard other TPM-lovers try to rationalize the continuity errors that have been created. Rube Goldberg would be proud of some of the machinations imagined by some of you to get around obvious problems.

Yeah, they've been to Tatooine as well, and R2 did know exactly where he was going, who he was going to see, who Obi Wan was, and what the mission importance was. Memory wipes my a**. That's a cop out and a half.

I'm telling you, like I've said before, I'm starting to believe that GL is deliberately holding off on a DVD release of the original trilogy because he knows full well that he'll have to alter the soundtrack and/or CG in or out new elements in order to plug the gaping holes he's creating with the new trilogy. We'll never ever see the "original" trilogy on DVD. It'll be some ridiculous bastardization that support monthly droid memory wipes, Midichlorians, and Qui Gon Ginn.

Mandalorian Candidat
11-15-2001, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
It'll be some ridiculous bastardization that support monthly droid memory wipes, Midichlorians, and Qui Gon Ginn.

Hey, wouldn't that be a cool name for a cocktail? "Bartender, give me a Qui-Gon Gin with a lemon twist."

stillakid
11-15-2001, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat


Hey, wouldn't that be a cool name for a cocktail? "Bartender, give me a Qui-Gon Gin with a lemon twist."


Hmm? Maybe that's where TPM came from. GL went on an extended bender then started writing...

El Chuxter
11-15-2001, 12:50 PM
Neither C-3PO's nor R2-D2's actions in ANH can prove conclusively they don't know where they are. C-3PO tells Luke he doesn't know, but I think he does.

stillakid
11-15-2001, 12:58 PM
The OT always put forth the idea that R2 was the "stable" one of the pair and 3PO tended to be a little ditsy at times. Undeniably in ANH, R2 knew exactly what he was doing and where he was. But 3PO clearly didn't know and I don't think he really cared where he was. He was just interested in getting back to the posh life in a palace somewhere or something.

sith_killer_99
11-15-2001, 08:01 PM
Whatever.:rolleyes:

I was simply offering my input based on the Star Wars NOVELS.:Pirate:

Specifically "I Jedi" goes into depth about how and why astromechs have ROUTINE memory wipes. Luke's R2 unit avoids this over the years ONLY because of Luke's sentimental attachment to the little droid.

As for C-3PO, Uncle Owen wanted to have his memory wiped. Why would he do that unless he knew that the droid would MAINTAIN his ability to understand the "bianary language of moisture vaporators" and still speak "Botchie". It was obvious WAY BACK THEN that memory wipes were a common occurance. IMO :p


Did R2 know where he was going? Probably, after all, he does have built in sensor, even if his own range is a bit limited. Still, the info could have been provided by Princess Leia.

The 'Xir
11-17-2001, 02:04 PM
Wow!!! This thread took off unexpectedly! :cool:

Anyway some great ideas being thrown back and forth! However, unfortunately I have to be the one to bring this point up! If and this is still an IF, If R2's memory wasn't wiped (cause he knows where he is going) and 3-po's was, then once they crash land on Tatooine and 3-po says,"what a desolate looking place this is"; then why doesn't R2 just bleep a response of,"you idiot, this is Tatooine, we were here just about 10-12 years back and we gotta go find Ben kenobi. You know that guy we just spent the last 40 years of our lives with"

3po: "well really, I've just had about enough of you, just once you take into consideration the 10 memory wipes I've had, you might not be so quick to judge you little scrap pile!"

R2(bleeps): "Well, now that I've told you again for the 10th time, you should remember, so you don't have to act like you don't know what your talking about when we come upon any doid buyers and their farmboy nephew's!"

Oy vey! I think Lucas finally has screwed up! If this exaggerated point is played out and left open in the trilogy, the only thing I can think of to save it, is that one could suggest that 3po wasn't telling luke anything that R2 told him or was trying to relay to Luke, in order to protect themselves! But 1) that wouldn't be expressed on screen and 2) 3po did say,"you can trust him he's our new master", so that wouldn't quite fit either! Hhhmmm :confused:

Bel-Cam Jos
11-17-2001, 06:49 PM
This is more of a spoiler, except I'm only speculating, not sharing info I know. So maybe it isn't a spoiler. Whatever.

How about this idea? Anakin, at some point before he officially turns to the Dark Side, has R2's and Threepio's memories wiped ONLY of his identity. Darth Vader could emerge as a "new" Sith Lord, with most of the galaxy unaware of his true identity. Obi-Wan and some Jedi know, but remember, "Vader helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi." Maybe this detail isn't to eliminate the good guys but protect his identity from being manipulated. So the droids' memories are intact, EXCEPT for who Darth Vader really is.

Possiblity?

stillakid
11-17-2001, 09:34 PM
Too convoluted and complicated :sur: to be a possiblity. Wipe or no wipe. It's perfectly clear that 3PO has no memory of where he came from but R2 has never had his memory flushed.

A bigger, yet related question, is why Vader never took pause at the fact that the Tantive IV was heading for Tatooine. Of all people to not remember the significance of that planet, Vader is the most unlikely. You see, this is another example of how TPM has turned this entire story into a crumbling deck of cards. Too many holes and inconsistencies.

Wolfwood319
11-17-2001, 10:29 PM
This isn't a Big continuity issue or even a continuity issue at all.

Pretty much what has been stated above; just because they were at the pod race together doesn't mean they know each other like a couple of college buddies. They probably didn't even see each other.

Also, the droids were never at Jabba's palace either. The memory wipes are a pretty common statistic in SW lore. The droids probably have had memory wipes, so 3PO doesn't know that Anakin built him and he's from Tatooine, and R2 might not know Obi-Wan from TPM, but told where to find him and who he was.

Now the Vader and Tatooine is something different altogether. He probably didn't/doesn't know that Obi-Wan is on Tatooine or even alive for that matter. And he didn't know it was R2 and 3PO in the pod either. So he probably didn't even think twice about it.

I hardly see this as messing up continuity to the point where GL will go back and re-work the OT.

bigbarada
11-17-2001, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
A bigger, yet related question, is why Vader never took pause at the fact that the Tantive IV was heading for Tatooine. Of all people to not remember the significance of that planet, Vader is the most unlikely. You see, this is another example of how TPM has turned this entire story into a crumbling deck of cards. Too many holes and inconsistencies.

I don't see this as a problem in the least. Obviously Vader will remember the planet; but this doesn't mean that he will know that Obi-Wan and Luke are there. Besides what's he supposed to do? Go sight-seeing? Break down in tears over the painful memories? I remember reading that Anakin vows never to set foot on Tatooine again after the events of Ep2. (spoiler-readers will know what specific event I am talking about) I know it could just be a rumor but it would explain why Vader never actually went to search for the droids himself.

The 'Xir
11-18-2001, 02:17 AM
This is all well and all, however; someone present to me a logical scenario why when R2 and 3PO crash on Tatooine(If r2's memory isn't wiped), why doesn't he just tell the clueless 3PO everything he needs to know! AS A REMINDER: For as we see later in ANH, 3po continues to talk about his former master and not knowing what planet he's on!(the planet that is farthest from the bright center of the Universe)
Does R2 not tell him to protect info? Does 3po not tell Luke anything to protect info?

You know what I mean? Check it!..: 3PO just get's a memory wipe, R2 approaches..,"How ya feeling kid?"
3po,"Oh hello, my name is C3.. "Yeah Yeah Yeah, I know worm for brains", R2 sqeeks! "Remember I'm R2, we met on Tatooine, your maker was a 9 year old kid named Anakin who grew up to be an ash..nevermind! Come on I need you If we're going to find this Obi-wan!"

stillakid
11-18-2001, 02:57 AM
If you look at the story as a whole and the various bits of information scattered throughout, the plot holes are so obvious, I can't fathom where the stream of disagreements come from. I'm not sure how else to present the problems. It's kind of like describing the color blue to a blind person. I think that ultimately, many people just want TPM to work with the OT so badly that they're willing to believe and rationalize anything no matter how little sense it makes.

I've almost come to terms with TPM and the direction that this new trilogy seems to be taking. I believe that the only way to make it all work out is to consider the trilogies as mutually exclusive. The only things that they have in common are titles and similar names and production design. The story elements are so disparate that without putting blinders on, there is no way to resolve the conflicts.

Now before the hate mail flies in, I think that it's fine for fans to enjoy whatever the heck that want to. Even Britney Spears is fine in small doses (listening to her I mean. I could look at her all day). But no matter how much you want there to be no problems, it doesn't make them go away. Ignore them and enjoy them if you want. We all have our ways of dealing with the New Trilogy crisis. Stay calm. Stop drop and roll. In case of emergency break glass. :rolleyes:

Wolfwood319
11-18-2001, 02:50 PM
If you don't like SW, don't post here. This is a place for fans, not for people to go around saying how SW sucks ever since TPM came out, and how GL doesn't know what he's doing.

No one's forcing you to like SW, so if you don't no one will care. Just stop posting in a fan forum. If you don't like it, your obviously not a fan, and have no business being here. Sure there are some inconsistincies, but I don't lay awake at night worrying about it.

I like SW for what it is in a whole. Sure TPM wasn't great, but I still liked it and a lot of other people who post here like it too. If you don't like the way the new trilogy is going, fine, but don't go around on fan forums expressing your discontent for everything that is Star Wars, cause when you do that, you're not a fan, just a disgruntled fanboy who have nothing better to do then go around and badmouth Star Wars and GL just because they don't like where SW is heading.

I could go on but I won't.

bigbarada
11-18-2001, 03:06 PM
To put things in a different perspective, I really, really dislike EU. Thus I try to stay away from any EU thread I find. My point, if you hate Ep1, or the entire prequel trilogy that much, then don't post in the Ep1 or Ep2 forums. It's that simple, stay in the OT forums or the toy forums and save us the headache.

master jedi
11-18-2001, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
To put things in a different perspective, I really, really dislike EU. Thus I try to stay away from any EU thread I find. My point, if you hate Ep1, or the entire prequel trilogy that much, then don't post in the Ep1 or Ep2 forums. It's that simple, stay in the OT forums or the toy forums and save us the headache.

Amen, brother. I was trying to say this in the old forums.

The Bald Ewok
11-18-2001, 07:45 PM
This has been a pretty cool read. A lot of topics have come up that I didnt think about before. However, I can buy that Anakin has the droids memory wiped due to an identity. I can really buy that. If I am not wrong, dont one of the rebels offer to wipe the memory of R2 in ANH, but luke doesnt allow it because he says that him and the droid have been through a lot. Also, I wouldnt put much stock into 3PO because he couldnt even tell a story right. Look at how he was explaining to the ewoks at what the rebels went through. He jumped everywhere, more than I do when I type!
So in my humble opinion, I think that R2 and 3PO have their memory wiped!

stillakid
11-18-2001, 10:28 PM
Suddenly the definition of "fan" means to lay absolute praise upon everything Star Wars. That's BS. In fact, I consider myself a "better fan", if that sort of thing can be measured, because I take the time to evaluate what's in front of me instead of blindly accepting anything stamped Star Wars as gospel.

I never suggested ever anywhere that people should not like TPM or anything else. You're free to do whatever you wish. My comments come from questions asked by others, and frequently are responses to mis-information or incorrect conclusions that have been drawn.

This does not make me a "fan-boy" (name-calling, by the way is the obvious fallback position for opposition that has no valid basis for argument) nor a Star Wars hater.

If the point of these forums is nothing more than to heap unending praise on Star Wars then it truly is a waste of time for everyone. Discussions of all kinds occur only because there are good and bad things to talk about. Choose to look at the world through rose-colored glasses if you wish, but the problems will still be there and will be discussed. If you want to hear about how great the new trilogy is, pick up the Insider. For a more balanced and thought-provoking look at the story, keep reading here. If you can't handle it, perhaps it's you who should leave.

master jedi
11-18-2001, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Suddenly the definition of "fan" means to lay absolute praise upon everything Star Wars.

I don't praise everyhting Star Wars.

JediTricks
11-19-2001, 01:10 AM
Please, let's not judge others' fan choices and tell them where they should and shouldn't post. Sharing opinions is part of the discussion process, and if someone doesn't love Ep 1, it's not like EU where it's easy to avoid, Lucas has crammed it down our throats and says "this is canon", so they have a right to express their opinions about EP 1 and especially how the film reflects upon the original trilogy.