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Freedom
10-13-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally at the end of Menace, I thought the reason for killing Maul was to make way for Anikan since there can only be two. But, in Clones, we have another Sith Lord, Dooku.
Did we really need Dooku?
Would it have not been so much cooler if Maul would have escaped in Menace to show back up in Clones. Split Dooku's character in two parts. Have Dooku's political character be played by a younger Tarkin and have the physical part of Dooku be played by Maul.
Maul acts as Tarkins protector and/or enforcer the way Vader does in Hope. It creates a rematch between Obi-Wan and Maul, but Anikan's recklessness causes both he and Obi-Wan to be taken out of the fight. Then Yoda would have had to face Maul. Yoda would defeat Maul and make him look that much powerfull, and Tarkin escapes with the Death Star plans.
It always seemed that the Death Star was Tarkins pet project anyway. It would make sense for him to be involved from the beginning.
On that subject, I think characters like Tarkin & Mon Mothma should have been in the prequils. I think Bail Organna should have been established more as well by now. I just don't think one more movie will show us all the things we want to see.
What do you guys think?

187-Maul
10-14-2002, 07:51 AM
well it's too late to change it now, although you could maybe ask lucas...:p j/k
but seriously, I would've loved to see Maul a bit more and the tarkin idea is nice too but I still like it the way it is now, cause dooku is pretty cool too IMO

DahrJin
10-14-2002, 09:57 AM
I'm with you on this. I always thought Maul was a very under used character. He had the potential to be the"VADER" of the PT, but all that got wasted.

I too think Tarkin should have been the one to get the plans for the DS and not DooKu. Don't get me wrong, I like the character of DooKu, but was he really needed?

We learn more about DooKu's background in 5 mins of AOTC than we did about Maul in a 3 hr. film.

Maul should have been carried over into AOTC like you said, and I see the rematch between OB-1 and Maul going in Mauls favor, and the rest could be played out just like the DooKu duel. Ob-1 is downed, Anakin get's his arm chopped off trying to help, and Yoda steps in to KICK MAULS BEHIND.

All the while, Tarkin is sneaking off with the plans to the DS......

Would have been sweet..IMHO!

Only thing that might make the DooKu character even more cheesy is if he turns out to be Anakins daddy.......never know, GL has done crazier things with the story line. :frus:

JesusFreak
10-14-2002, 10:56 AM
If GL was gonna do that then he really needed Maul to talk alot more in TPM, and then alot in AOTC. I didn't like Maul much because he never talked. It's a cool idea, but I don't see Anakin OR Obi-Wan losing to Maul, Anakin was pretty darn good in his fight against Dooku. If Maul died in AOTC then wouldn't Anakin have to turn at the end of it or the beginning of Ep. 3? I never expected to have a whole movie full of dark side ani but it sure would be cool!

DahrJin
10-14-2002, 11:34 AM
Anakin wasn't all that good against DooKu, really. Can you say CHOP-CHOP...I knew that you could. :)

And after all, Maul was trained his whole life in the dark ways, so I could see how he would defeat both OB-1 and Anakin.

Anakin wouldn't have to turn right away. No one turned after Mauls death in TPM.....

If Maul was in AOTC and defeated by Yoda, that would leave the door open for yet another dark character to be introduced, to fill the void while we see Anakin starting to turn.

The way it is now, we get the same tired, old geezer of a Sith in EP III.

Again, the idea behind the character of DooKu is cool, just not a cool enough Villian, for me I guess.

Can't wait to see DARK ANAKIN.

Arrogant Arse
10-14-2002, 03:34 PM
My thought is this: Tarkin is an old adversary of Dooku. (I'm sorry, that's the plot of all those Dracula movies with Lee and Cushing-Sorry)

Anyway, Tarkin is an agressive associate of Dooku's who gets (takes) the plans from him in EIII. He explores them and presents them to the Emperor Tarkin also has the connections and drive to get the thing built. Dooku did not have the "organizational ability?" to do it. Not because he was lazy or anything, but he had other objectives.

Tarkin was more focused onto Military force. Dooku was into ruling the galaxy by any means necessary.

I also think Dooku is a better villain than Maul. Maul didn't say much. He was basically a killing machine. Dooku had all those dorks from the Commerce Guild and Trade Federation, and Banking Clan on his side. I doubt Maul would have been able to persuade all those factions to meet with him and be on his side.

RooJay
10-14-2002, 03:50 PM
I have to admit Freedom, that even though I have a strong affinity for Dooku, your idea not only seems like it would've been really cool, but it also seems like it might've made more sense. The only real problem I have with that is that I'm not certain Tarkin would've had much of a power base at this point in the story; at least not realistically. I don't know - maybe it could've been made to work, but it is, as was stated, too late now. What we've been given works well enough for me.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-15-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by DahrJin
Anakin wouldn't have to turn right away. No one turned after Mauls death in TPM.....

If noone turned to the dark side after Maul died, then when the hell did Dooku become a Sith? AOTC was 10 years after TPM. The clone army was created 10 years before AOTC, and Jango was hired by Tyranus - Dooku's Sith name - so Dooku had obviously become a Sith by that time, either that or Tyranus just happens to be another Joe Schmoe who likes guys in uniform. :D

The Overlord Returns
10-16-2002, 11:34 AM
Actually, if you look at what Maul does in TPM, it really has nothing to do with making room for Anakin.

First and foremost, he's a device for moving the plot forward. By Finding the rogue Naboo ship, the story is moved along to it's conclusion.

Secondly, he is there for Obi Wans benefit. Maul kills Qui Gon, which drives Obi Wan into his rage. Obi Wan draws from the Dark side to defeat maul. It is the defeat of Maul that causes the council to elevate Obi Wan to the status of Jedi Knight. The man did something NO other Jedi has even thought of facing....he duelled, and defeated a SITH LORD....even his Master could not do this...

...so... Maul is actually in TPM to Advance Obi Wans story.

mini-rock
10-16-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Actually, if you look at what Maul does in TPM, it really has nothing to do with making room for Anakin.

First and foremost, he's a device for moving the plot forward. By Finding the rogue Naboo ship, the story is moved along to it's conclusion.

Secondly, he is there for Obi Wans benefit. Maul kills Qui Gon, which drives Obi Wan into his rage. Obi Wan draws from the Dark side to defeat maul. It is the defeat of Maul that causes the council to elevate Obi Wan to the status of Jedi Knight. The man did something NO other Jedi has even thought of facing....he duelled, and defeated a SITH LORD....even his Master could not do this...

...so... Maul is actually in TPM to Advance Obi Wans story.

I agree with everything but Obi-Wan drawing from the Dark Side of the Force to defeat Maul. Sure I think he did draw from the Dark Side in the short battle after Maul killed Qui-Gon, but after Obi-Wan fell into that pit I think he realized the only way he would survive was by returning to the light side.

Beast
10-16-2002, 07:51 PM
I'm glad they killed Maul in E1. He had no charecter, no personal agenda. All he was was a snarling pit bull of a villian. No depth and charecter at all, just a yes man and enforcer for the real threat Darth Sidious. Hmm, I wonder if Lucas based Maul on Rick McCallum.

Dooku is more what I think of, in regards to a Sith Lord, from what we saw of them from the OT. Minipulative, Elegent, Refined, and Reserved. A charecter that demands respect from people, and deserves it. Just a pure force of evil, not a snarling pit bull one dimensional cartoon charecter. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
10-16-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
No depth and charecter at all, just a yes man and enforcer for the real threat Darth Sidious. Hmm, I wonder if Lucas based Maul on Rick McCallum.

:p:p:p If you mean no depth and no character then yes. j/k :D

darthvyn
10-21-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by DahrJin
The way it is now, we get the same tired, old geezer of a Sith in EP III.

Again, the idea behind the character of DooKu is cool, just not a cool enough Villian, for me I guess.


i'm not so sure he really is a villain...


Originally posted by Arrogant Arse
Anyway, Tarkin is an agressive associate of Dooku's who gets (takes) the plans from him in EIII. He explores them and presents them to the Emperor Tarkin also has the connections and drive to get the thing built. Dooku did not have the "organizational ability?" to do it. Not because he was lazy or anything, but he had other objectives.

Tarkin was more focused onto Military force. Dooku was into ruling the galaxy by any means necessary.

I also think Dooku is a better villain than Maul. Maul didn't say much. He was basically a killing machine. Dooku had all those dorks from the Commerce Guild and Trade Federation, and Banking Clan on his side. I doubt Maul would have been able to persuade all those factions to meet with him and be on his side.

the emperor already has the plans - dooku gave them to him at the end of clones...

i say i don't think dooku is really a villain, because i actually tend to believe that he (at least at the beginning of their relationship) intends to destoy the sith... by working with sidious, but got corrupted by the power. once again, dooku is a "political idealist" - he sees the only way that order can be brought to the galaxy is to wrest it from the strangle hold of the bureaucrats - by siding with them and GETTING THEM TO SECEDE FROM THE REPUBLIC!!! that way, they don't control the government as much, and palpatine's supporters have more power to give him emergency rule! palpatine's plan is very well thought out. dooku doesn't want to rule the galaxy - he just wants order. palpatine wants to rule the galaxy.

Lord Tenebrous
10-21-2002, 07:16 PM
The pattern of Sith just fleshes out the basic plot of the Journal of the Whills:


TPM:


Another galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens, when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.


AOTC:



So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from the outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.


EP3:


Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples ...



Tarkin could be in Episode III, and he very well could be working on the same agenda as Anakin. They'd both be Imperialists, and that's all I can say without spoileresque speculation.

Chewtobacco
10-21-2002, 10:52 PM
What is everyone's hangup with Tarkin? The guy played such a minor role in the OT. I admit the guy has a very distinguished face and appears very much a leader, but doesn't have the kind of role that is relevant to the overall story.

The story is about one man's journey from slavery to hero of the jedi to enemy of the jedi and then back to good. At this point, we can even see that the story of Luke Skywalker is a subplot to the story of Anakin Skywalker. And the story of Padme & Anakin is secondary too. That makes the story of Han/Chewie even less significant. At this point, adding Tarkin is about as thrilling as tying a young Wedge Antilles into the story. (Wedge had as much screen time as Tarkin)

I would have liked seeing Maul in another movie though. He was a very exciting villian and his scenes were the most emotionally thrilling parts of Ep. 1

Lord Tenebrous
10-21-2002, 11:08 PM
What is everyone's hangup with Tarkin? The guy played such a minor role in the OT. I admit the guy has a very distinguished face and appears very much a leader, but doesn't have the kind of role that is relevant to the overall story.


What is everyone's hangup with Maul? The guy played such a minor role in the PT. I admit the guy has a very distinguished face and appears very much a Sith, but doesn't have the kind of role that is relevant to the overall story.


And that's parallel logic for you.

otisdodge
10-27-2002, 02:33 AM
"Always two there are, no more, no less." I guess even Yoda could be wrong sometimes. Maybe Palpatine has more would-be apprentices waiting in the wings--who knows what Dooku's status really was at the time of TPM--Sidious may have sent Maul to get him killed. I agree with Overlord and Jar Jar. Maul makes a really good bad guy on a cartoon level. He's really cool to watch and he's driven my collection (I didn't start until Ep I), but I think Dooku would have taken care of him in one tenth the time it took Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.
Although, I have to admit that I am disappointed that Yoda didn't win out right. But I suppose that's not his character. Perhaps when you are truly one with the force like Yoda, or Obi-Wan in Ep IV, you don't kill to win.