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View Full Version : Confirmed? Stormtroopers are CLONES!!!



JEDIpartner
10-19-2002, 06:38 PM
I just received my new issue of "Insider" yesterday. I was perusing the pages for the "A New Hope" card encyclopedia. I noticed on ALL of the STORMTROOPER cards, their classification reads: "Ground- Imperial Clone Stormtrooper"!!!

Do we go with the cards as canon or do we wait to see what Lucas says on the issue??? I thought about putting this in the "CARDS" section, but it really relates to the films-- I think.

Beast
10-19-2002, 06:57 PM
Well, Decipher's cards were pretty much totally canon. So, I would have to say that these likely are also. So I guess that settles the argument, as to whether or not Stormies are clones. Thanks for the info, JEDIpartnr. :D Anyone with the issue, care to scan and post a picture of the card? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Battle Droid
10-19-2002, 07:03 PM
That doesn't mean they're clones of Jango though.

Beast
10-19-2002, 07:07 PM
I doubt they are, since I know I recall reading in the Visual Dictionary or one of the other books that the DNA that is used for cloning is only good for a few hundred thousand clones before the sample is exhausted. Now that Jango's dead, they don't have a fresh specimin to get the DNA from. So maybe the Stormies in the OT are infact clones of clones, which could explain why they are stupider and worse shots in the OT, then they are in the PT. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

chewie
10-19-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I just received my new issue of "Insider" yesterday. I was perusing the pages for the "A New Hope" card encyclopedia. I noticed on ALL of the STORMTROOPER cards, their classification reads: "Ground- Imperial Clone Stormtrooper"!!!

Do we go with the cards as canon or do we wait to see what Lucas says on the issue??? I thought about putting this in the "CARDS" section, but it really relates to the films-- I think.

I noticed the word "ground" in there. I guess this doesn't necessarily mean that Tie Fighter pilots are clones.

Sith Lord 0498
10-19-2002, 09:15 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the TIE Fighter pilots end up being clones as well, if this whole story is true. After all, there are Clonetroopers that are specifically trained as pilots. And their suits have similarities as well. Guess that means we might be able to throw the AT-AT drivers in there as well.

stillakid
10-19-2002, 09:23 PM
Well, that would help explain Princess Leia's line when she says, "Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" If they were indeed clones, then height would be uniform for all of them...


...however, we have seen Stormtroopers of different size, particularly when Old Ben is disabling the Tractor Beam over the chasm. So, they could be clones, but various hosts would account for varying sizes. Not an intelligent move, on the part of the Imperials, as creating two size versions of armor wouldn't be cost efficient, but nobody ever said that they cared about that. The unbelievable cost of the Star Destroyers alone prove...er, uh,...suggest that. :)

JEDIpartner
10-19-2002, 11:29 PM
I was also thinking the Decipher cards were pretty much canon... especially since that Lucasfilm got all crazy over the "Yoda Statue" debacle from a couple years back.

Anyhow... here's a scan of three cards and the header of the centre one enlarged.

Beast
10-20-2002, 04:16 AM
Wow, I like the design of the new cards alot more then the old Decipher ones. Though I wonder if they will be as obscure with the charecters as Decipher was. The Decipher sets that had cards from the Cantina and Jabba's Palace were great refrence materials for charecter names and pictures. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Pendo
10-20-2002, 07:50 AM
Perhaps not all the Stormtroopers are clones. The majority may be clones but there may be the odd volunteer. This would explain the differing sizes and voices.

Perhaps something would be done with them in the Archival Editions.

I'm glad there is finaly some word on the issue though :).

PENDO!

Beast
10-20-2002, 10:38 AM
Genetic Deviation during the cloning process, or the fact that some clones smoke and drink coffee could explain why they are not all the same height as well. I'm not sure, but can't identical twins have different heigths even? ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
10-20-2002, 11:17 AM
Somehow I actually doubt it. Coming from the new cards they could've probably just gotten the info from assuming that the Clones are also Stormtroopers just because of the armor and such although OT scenes tell that they cannot be Clones.

Had it been from the old cards, I dunno, theres a chance it could've been canon.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
10-20-2002, 12:36 PM
Oh well, I thought they were clones, and until there's a big card recall, I'm sticking to it. :D

Jargo
10-20-2002, 04:30 PM
I was at the decipher homepage recently and there was a note from the head honcho to the effect that he'd recently been to a summit at Skywalker ranch where he and other publishing houses such as dark horse and others had sat down and discussed the events between the movies. Who relates to who and what essentially leads to the clone wars. Significant battles and campaigns and al of that backstory. It seems like they got their acts together to pool resources and keep it cannon. So anything coming out now should all tie together and be official to boot since it's all been approved by LFL. So stormtroopers being vclones would presumably be an official cannon thing now.

BTW, shouldn't this be in episode three spoilers? If it's going to be a big plot point of the next movie that the clones are indeed going to end up as stormtroopers then this is a spoiler thread. :)

sith_killer_99
10-20-2002, 05:18 PM
They never mentioned it in the OT. Stormtroopers ARE different sizes, heights, weights, different VOICES. UNLIKE EPII, where great care was given to make them all alike.

Besides it just dosen't seem to follow a progressive logical order.

The whole "short for a Stormtrooper" line means nothing. The military has minimum height requirements, and the "Old Guard" has even stricter height requirements (5ft 10in to 6ft 2in). So it's not unreasonable to have height requirements within the military, and women STILL aren't allowed to go infantry, so gender could have been irrelevant as well.

The clones were created for an emergency army. So that the Republic could have TIME to build an army. In virtually ALL EU cloning was outlawed after the clone wars, certainly the MORAL implications would play into the politics of the time.

If the Empires' army were clones then where was the line drawn? Stormtroopers are one kind of clone, TIE Pilots were another type of clone, Sandtroopers? Scout Troopers? AT-AT Drivers?Snowtroopers? then it would also stand to reason that the Officers would be clones. Or maybe Palpatine wanted non-clones for his leaders, though it just dosen't follow suit. The best of each for each job. It would stand to reason that Palpy would want highly inteligent military oriented Officers.

Therefore I refuse to believe Stormtroopers are clones. If George reveals that they are in fact clones I still won't believe it. :p

Darth Vellner
10-20-2002, 09:35 PM
what about age? If some clones are younger they may not be full grown...some clones may eat more and some less..= thin and heavy clones...Rember clones are not "exact" copys of each other(well, they are. but..)...they are more like twins and lots of twins are very different from each other even though they are "the same"

stillakid
10-21-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99

Therefore I refuse to believe Stormtroopers are clones. If George reveals that they are in fact clones I still won't believe it. :p

Careful. Those words are blasphemy for some in these parts. ;)

Anyway, for the life of me, I can't remember where I read this, but I do remember reading a story some time ago about a regular guy somewhere on a distant planet who gets recruited by the Empire. I vaguely recall that there is some kind of internal dispute or something when the Empire lands on the surface. They declare the planet as part of the Empire then ask for "volunteers" to join up. The "hero" of the story steps forward and is ordered to "prove" his allegiance by shooting one of his own cohorts from the planet. He does so and then he's off.

As I type this, it's coming back to me that it might have been from a comic book that I gave to a friend as a gift. It was an anthology of various short stories revolving around Stormtroopers I think. Can't remember any of the authors. Anyway, either that story or one of the others essentially chronicled the life of the guy who was first through the door of the Tantive IV (Blockade Runner). Apparently the first through the door was always destined to die but somehow this guy survived. Alas, as the story went, as he was counting his lucky stars, he was shot dead by Leia.

I know that this is considered EU or something, and I'm the first one in line to say that only the movies themselves are responsible for setting continuity, but for what it's worth, this story definitely illustrated that Stormtrooper recruits were humans pulled from across the galaxy.

Additionally, more EU "proof" of this was in the radio dramatization of ANH. In one of the extended scenes on Tatooine, Biggs actually tells Luke about his plans to jump ship and join the Rebel Alliance. He doesn't "plan on waiting around to get recruited by the Imperial Navy" or something like that.

Episode II and the Decipher cards withstanding, all other roads suggest that Stormtroopers were always meant to be human individuals, not clones. But, other continuity appears to be changing so might as well toss Stormtroopers into the pile as well.

The Overlord Returns
10-21-2002, 10:13 AM
EU means nothing when talking about the films...when will people understand this?

JEDIpartner
10-21-2002, 10:20 AM
Are we all sure that we didn't just "assume" that these are all things we had known about? After all... it is George's story. Perhaps we only "thought" we knew Stormtroopers weren't clones because it didn't occur to us when we were kids. I know that loads of stories have been written, but a lot of those authors have done a lot of apologising for THEIR assumptions and errors.

Even if they weren't intended to be clones at the start, we now know that they are... and this is coming from LFL (according to Jargo) so we might as well just accept it. :crazed:

Beast
10-21-2002, 10:30 AM
It could be worse, they could have turned out to be robots. That's what my older brother always thought Stormtroopers were as a kid. Took me alot of time to make him realise that they were people in armor. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
10-21-2002, 10:57 AM
It's just not possible. Sure Lucas could redo all the Stormtroopers in the "archival editions" but that would just butcher the film even more than Greedo shooting first. Clones from E2 seemed to have had no individuality, which is why the were able to take orders so easily no questions asked, in which that whole part of the Stormtroopers talking on the chasm like a couple of bored guys would be completely out of Clone continuity. Not too mention Luke's going through the station and them not realizing he was too short for a Clone Trooper would make the film even worse.

They can't be Clones, and I have no doubt in my mind that they were fed some BS when asking that question because I doubt George talked to them himself as he was probably busy writing the script for E3, the more we say "oh they're clones cause decipher says" then the more it'll probably get Lucas to go by that just to please fans who have read the Decipher card.

Making Boba Fett a clone, making Stormtrooper clones, and they'll most likely make IG-88 turn out to be Anakin's custom built Imperial Droid and then the other bounty hunters as reject Clones, it just makes everything seem so small and insignificant.

Rogue II
10-21-2002, 11:33 AM
I didn't realize CCG was a source of cannon. I don't want to believe that Stormtroopers are clones either. I wonder if George Lucas will ever address the issue.

Even in ANH it seems like Stormtroopers have a life outside of wearing shiney white armor and missing the good guys. The 2 Stormtroopers guarding the Tractor Beam have a conversation about some sort of new speeder or ship.

El Chuxter
10-21-2002, 01:09 PM
Maybe some are clones and some aren't? I'd assume it'd be cheaper to recruit and train than to grow from scratch, once the war's in progress and people are willing to enlist.

BTW, unless ol' Uncle George is re-writing canon again (cough, Owen Lars, cough, cough), TIE Pilots can't be clones. Han Solo was a TIE Pilot, and I'm 99% sure that's from actual Lucas backstory.

The Overlord Returns
10-21-2002, 01:13 PM
If it's not from the actual films.....it's fodder that can be discarded.....

I believe that's always been GL's stance...

Beast
10-21-2002, 01:23 PM
Yes, if it never appeared on screen, it is not canon and does not have to be acknowledged in any of the films. Which was why the Owen Lars as Obi-Wan's brother was discarded. And we have no clue as to whether or not the original "falling into lava" creation of Vader will play out in E3.

Everything outside the movies is more or less an "Elseworlds" tale. Though the EU stuff has been good at sticking closer to continuity as of late. Probably due to Lucas' being more hands on in all aspects of the Star Wars franchise. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

QLD
10-23-2002, 01:44 PM
I take just about everything in EU as part of he whole big SW picture.....because otherwise, it's rather boring. Fact is, a few things aside, it fits together rather nicely.

And from some of the books I have read, not ALL of them were clones....but a lot were. They used their best recruits and soldiers, and had them cloned. They unearthed some of the Emporers cloning machines in the Thrawn trilogy.

Also, even if they were all cloned from the same person, if they weren't raised in a strict environment like the ones in EII, they would develop more individual personalities.

So for me, unless GL comes out and says that they are or aren't.....I will continue to believe some are, and some aren't.

JEDIpartner
10-23-2002, 03:35 PM
I'm with you on that. That's what I've been thinking this week... actually. It seems most logical, especially when they need to keep their numbers up!

stad
10-23-2002, 07:06 PM
Yeah, I seem to remember Han being a former TIE pilot as well, not to mention wasn't one of the rebel generals a former Imp?

Beast
10-23-2002, 07:17 PM
Imperial Officers and Soldiers are obviously not clones, as they don't look alike. As for Han Solo, his EU profile doesn't say that he was a TIE Pilot. It mearly says that he joined the Imperial Academy. Remeber that there are unmasked pilots like the ones that fly the Imperial Shuttles. So that doesn't prove whether or not TIE Pilots specifically are clones or not. :)

Solo eventually joined the Imperial Academy, to better himself and his piloting skills. Solo's mentor during his Academy days was Badure, or "Trooper" as he was known. During a training drill, Han performed a daring landing maneuver with an aged U-33 transport that earned him the nickname "Slick." Sometime during his military career Han Solo earned the right to wear the Corellian Bloodstripe.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Chewtobacco
10-24-2002, 09:40 PM
Logically, because of the sheer requirement for size of armies, the stormtroopers are not clones. I buy the theory that some are and some are not.

You can fight clone wars with 2 million troopers, but you can't rule the galaxy with that many or even with 10 million. With thousands of life-giving planets for the Empire to stake it's claim to, the demand for more stormtroopers would be required.

AdmiralPiett
10-25-2002, 11:20 PM
So that red stripe down the side of vintage Han's pants could actually be the Corellian Bloodstripe? Amazing how there is so much more meaning beneath the surface with those old figs.

I hope George doesn't say that all stormtroopers are clones but I have a feeling that he may. Here's my reasoning. I was in Toys'R'Us the other day and some little kid was asking his dad who the stormtroopers are and he told the kid that the clones are going to become the stormtroopers. The dad doesn't know that for sure. No one can say that except George. But a lot of the non-hardcore-Star Wars-fan general public (as well as some of the diehard fanbase) now assumes that the clones become the stormtroopers. George may just try to please the masses by making all the clones become stormtroopers so that the latest young generation of star wars fans don't think their parents are liars for telling them different. I'm not saying that George will necessarily sacrifice his franchise or the credibility of the OT for the kiddies in E3 but just remember some of the things that he put in Episode I. Yippie ring a bell?
Piett

Chewtobacco
10-26-2002, 12:09 AM
Give George a little more credit. Sure he likes to make fans and the general public happy, but I think more than ever that he makes the films his own way. He doesn't need to make you, me, or the general public happy. He could lose $50 million on this next film and as long as he was happy with it, that's all that would matter to him. (he could probably use the $50 million as a tax writeoff)

scruffziller
10-28-2002, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
If it's not from the actual films.....it's fodder that can be discarded.....

I believe that's always been GL's stance...

So how would you throw in the Ewok films? Lucas made them did he not? Yet there is a great drawback of what we want to accept from those. Based on your logic TOR, you would have to accept the Ewok tales as non EU.

I had read in some gaming books that Stormtroopers were a rank that was achieved.

darthvyn
10-28-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by LTBasker
Clones from E2 seemed to have had no individuality, which is why the were able to take orders so easily no questions asked, in which that whole part of the Stormtroopers talking on the chasm like a couple of bored guys would be completely out of Clone continuity.


okay, but the clones were in a middle of a BATTLE - so they really wouldn't chat it up too much... whereas the stormies on the chasm didn't even know why they were being stationed there...

perhaps the whole thing is a little statement on cloning and being human - that no matter how you are created - birthed or decanted - the human "spirit" still shines through, and personality, freedom of choice, and differences in appearance are all inevitable outcomes of human life...

when the clones are first created, all their experiences are similiar, therefore with their genetic similarities, they all act alike - whereas say, twenty years later, they all have had more diverse experiences, and therefore have more diverse reactions/personalities...

RooJay
10-28-2002, 07:28 PM
I'd be interested in learning where and when exactly it was determined that the CCG is canon.

LTBasker
10-28-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
okay, but the clones were in a middle of a BATTLE - so they really wouldn't chat it up too much... whereas the stormies on the chasm didn't even know why they were being stationed there...

But we did see them eating imaginary food and no one asked if it was just a drill? ;)

There were other moments like on the Gunship during a chase it's not like they were doing anything specific (not even trying to snipe Dooku) but just from the scene where Luke & Leia are running from them in the Death Star the Stormtroopers show independant thought as they come up with their own stuff to do like one of them getting down on the floor and trying to shoot under the door. I'm pretty sure also that no one told the Stormtrooper to shoot at R2 in ROTJ so instead of aiming for the humanoids that were obviously more of a threat than a simple droid (Kaminoians seemed to really fine Droids inferior, along with the majority of people in the prequels) so he obviously had to think on his own wether or not he should shoot at the R2. Then again since it was a main character it could've been a lucky shot but still. :D

Bib Forlobster
10-28-2002, 08:20 PM
I hope that the Stormtroopers aren't clones.

I just don't like the idea. I can't really put my finger on it. Maybe it's because I grew up on the OT and it just had certain things about it. I think I always thought the Stormtroopers were human and changing it would just take a piece of what Star Wars is to me away. I'm not big on the EU, but I also always recall the background of Han Solo as being Ex-Imperial. Also, the scenes with Luke and Biggs talking about the Empire and defecting to the Rebels are actually filmed(you can view them on the original SW:Behind the Magic). Does this make them not count since they didn't appear in the movies? I realize I'm kind of jumping around here, hard to collect what I'm trying to get across. I just feel that making the Stormtroopers clones would just ruin a major component of the OT for me.

I always viewed clones as being an ugly part of the Star Wars Universes past history. I always got the impression that they had been wiped out.

darthvyn
10-29-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker


But we did see them eating imaginary food and no one asked if it was just a drill? ;)

There were other moments like on the Gunship during a chase it's not like they were doing anything specific (not even trying to snipe Dooku) but just from the scene where Luke & Leia are running from them in the Death Star the Stormtroopers show independant thought as they come up with their own stuff to do like one of them getting down on the floor and trying to shoot under the door. I'm pretty sure also that no one told the Stormtrooper to shoot at R2 in ROTJ so instead of aiming for the humanoids that were obviously more of a threat than a simple droid (Kaminoians seemed to really fine Droids inferior, along with the majority of people in the prequels) so he obviously had to think on his own wether or not he should shoot at the R2. Then again since it was a main character it could've been a lucky shot but still. :D

see, that's what i'm talking about... when we see the clones in AOC, they are just about brand new... when we see them in the OT, they've (presumably) been around for a while, and thus have had different experiences, and thus different knowledge, reactions, and personalities... they've grown beyond their programming from the kaminoans to incorporate more knowledge - something that makes us human...


Originally posted by Bib Forlobster
I think I always thought the Stormtroopers were human and changing it would just take a piece of what Star Wars is to me away. I'm not big on the EU, but I also always recall the background of Han Solo as being Ex-Imperial. Also, the scenes with Luke and Biggs talking about the Empire and defecting to the Rebels are actually filmed(you can view them on the original SW:Behind the Magic). Does this make them not count since they didn't appear in the movies? I realize I'm kind of jumping around here, hard to collect what I'm trying to get across. I just feel that making the Stormtroopers clones would just ruin a major component of the OT for me.

I always viewed clones as being an ugly part of the Star Wars Universes past history. I always got the impression that they had been wiped out.

... but they ARE human. no matter how they are created, they are still human beings, and can break out of the mold that they were forced into. this is my explanation of the difference between the clones in AOC and the stormies in the OT - they have grown into more "rounded" humans.

just because han's background could be as an ex-imp doesn't mean he was a stormtrooper - there are plenty more ranks of imperials that might not be clones. same goes for biggs/luke - we haven't heard that pilots are clones, just that stormies are (supposedly.)

stillakid
10-29-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Bib Forlobster
I hope that the Stormtroopers aren't clones.

I just don't like the idea. I can't really put my finger on it. Maybe it's because I grew up on the OT and it just had certain things about it. I think I always thought the Stormtroopers were human and changing it would just take a piece of what Star Wars is to me away. I'm not big on the EU, but I also always recall the background of Han Solo as being Ex-Imperial. Also, the scenes with Luke and Biggs talking about the Empire and defecting to the Rebels are actually filmed(you can view them on the original SW:Behind the Magic). Does this make them not count since they didn't appear in the movies? I realize I'm kind of jumping around here, hard to collect what I'm trying to get across. I just feel that making the Stormtroopers clones would just ruin a major component of the OT for me.

I always viewed clones as being an ugly part of the Star Wars Universes past history. I always got the impression that they had been wiped out.

I'm with you 100% on that. The issue isn't whether or not Stormtroopers are mindless clones or not. The issue is the continuity and "suggestion" that GL himself established in the OT that the Imperial army was constructed by willing and non-willing recruits from across the repressed galaxy. Suddenly altering that plot element to make every Armored Stormtrooper a clone would be detrimental to the established storyline. But again, he's already started down that path, so why stop now.

Besides, recall in the first sequence of ANH, when the black uniformed officer is discussing the escape pod with Vader. Vader instructs the officer to deal with it personally. We can logically assume that that specific officer went back to the Star Destroyer, put on some white Stormtrooper armor, then headed down to Tatooine. Now, unless there are thousands more masked troopers who look exactly like that specific guy (we'll never know, though), the implication is that either each Stormtrooper or the vast majority of Stormtroopers are unique individuals and not clones.

Beast
10-29-2002, 12:26 PM
The clones aren't mindless, they can think. Lama Su tells Obi-Wan that they can think creativly, so they are vastly superior to droids. George Lucas never suggested one way or the other in the OT what the Stormtroopers are. We never see them walking around without their helmets on. The only Imperials that we know for sure are not Clones are officers and crew, the ones that arn't masked. How is it detrimental to the storyline, it doesn't alter any facts or info presented in the OT. :p :)

That Officer is just that, an Imperial Officer. He is not a Stormtrooper, but he may have coordinated the Stormtroopers that were sent down to Tatooine. Remember the rest of Vader's line, which you convinently left off to try to prove your argument. "Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally, Commander. There will be noone to stop us this time." There is no implication of proof that that man is a Stormtrooper, he's an Imperial Officer. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

scruffziller
10-31-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Chewtobacco
as long as he was happy with it, that's all that would matter to him.

That is what I want to happen.

RooJay
11-07-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
I'd be interested in learning where and when exactly it was determined that the CCG is canon.

I thought this was a good question, and bore repeating until someone (perhaps one of those parties that decided, or determined through official sources, the CCG is in fact canon) decides to address it.

JEDIpartner
11-07-2002, 12:54 PM
To confirm that my original post, which started this thread, is valid... I have information authorised by Lucasfilm.

I picked up the "Making of Attach of the Clones" book, "Mythmaking", and have been reading little sections of it since Tuesday. I got up to the chapter entitled "On Kamino" and they said that Jango's armour was originally going to be white in order to illustrate Jango's connection with the Stormtroopers in the OT. They even refer to Jango Fett as the progenitor of the Stormtroopers in the OT.

Webster's Dictionary definition:
Pro•gen|i-tor n. 1. a forefather; ancestor in direct line 2. a source from which something develops; originator or precursor <progeny descent, lineage, race, family- children, descendants, or offspring collectively; issue

...so it looks as though Lucas is implying that ALL of the Stormtroopers are clones of Jango... by what the author has been permitted to write.

Pendo
11-07-2002, 01:01 PM
No, that's not true! That's IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I think it is a baaaaad idea :mad:! Thanx for the info anyway JEDIpartnr ;)!

PENDO!

The Overlord Returns
11-07-2002, 01:24 PM
They're going to have the actor playing jango re - record all stormtrooper dialogue for the archival editions.

Pendo
11-07-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
They're going to have the actor playing jango re - record all stormtrooper dialogue for the archival editions.

If they are going to do this, I would like to see some unmasked Stormtroopers with Jango's face.
Also perhaps Boba could take off his helmate during some part of Episode V to show that he is also his father. Originally I would have objected to seeing Boba's face, but now that he has one in AOTC there isn't really anything to be ruined! I also think revealing Boba's face as Jango's will now have a powerful emotion to it :).

PENDO!

The Overlord Returns
11-07-2002, 01:33 PM
I disagree. We have seen Bobas Face as a child...I'd say leave it as that. This way, people can imagine something that's made Boba Different from the other clones. Severe disfigurement, etc.

Perhaps, if Boba does return to Kamino and get aged Quickly, he has some genetic alteration done to hide his identity.....

JEDIpartner
11-07-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
They're going to have the actor playing jango re - record all stormtrooper dialogue for the archival editions.

Now... that's not necessarily so. Let's say they cloned my mum. She's originally from Japan and has a rather heavy accent. If the clone were raised in the United States, it would have no trace of that Japanese accent... just her genetic make-up and general physicality.

That would hold true of the first batch of clones on Kamino. The clones would probably have the vocal characteristics of Jango, but not his accent. Jango is not from Kamino. More than likely the Clones would have the accent of their Kaminoan instructors. I'll have to watch AOTC next week to listen to the Clone Troopers when they talk. So... in the event that the Imperials had cloning facilities all over the galaxy and different species operating the facilities and instructing them, they would develop accents reminiscent of those species.

The Overlord Returns
11-07-2002, 01:52 PM
The clones in the battle had Jangos accent. Well, Jangos voice for that matter....

I was actually just making a joke with the re record bit........didn't expect anyone to take it seriously.

JEDIpartner
11-07-2002, 02:24 PM
well... even if you ARE joking, you know SOME formuite would be serious about the issue! :D

RooJay
11-07-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Well, Decipher's cards were pretty much totally canon. So, I would have to say that these likely are also. So I guess that settles the argument, as to whether or not Stormies are clones. Thanks for the info, JEDIpartnr. :D Anyone with the issue, care to scan and post a picture of the card? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

In order to get someone to address my query, I thought I'd take it all the way back to the beginning of this discussion to see who it was that first mentioned the notion of the CCG being canon - Mr. JJB himself! So what is it? Were you being sarcastic and facetious or did you actually hear this from official sources? I just need an answer for my own vilification.

On the issue of the mention of Jango and Clones in the book Mythmaking, I'd like to first point out that again...this is information likely written by an source outside of Lucasfilm using possibly partial, or at least un-clearly detailed information, and may still not indicate a final word on the subject. Also, the term progenitor could simply indicate the person after whom the clonetroopers and later stormtroopers were modeled in terms of training, methods, and equipment. Simply the "guy who got the ball rolling" if you will. For instance, it could be said that John Ford is the progenitor of the Ford motor company. This does not obviously mean that all Ford products are clones of John Ford. I hope I have articulated this right.

All of this having been said, I must admit that even though it's not the way I would've preferred the story to turn out, I have warmed up to the idea of all stormtroopers being clones. Hopefully, episode 3 will come along and help me forget about that idea altogether.

Beast
11-07-2002, 04:46 PM
RooJay, there have been a couple articles in card collecting magazines back when Decipher was doing the cards. They said that they worked extremly closely with representatives of Lucasfilm, and that George himself signed off on all of the flavor text that was ever used on the cards. That's about as close as canon as you can get, without Lucas having it appear in the movie.

Once Lucas decided that he was making the prequels, very very strict rules were issued about anything having to do with any of the events of the movies. Everything had to be approved, and nothing could negate information from the films, or the prequels.

Anything that contains information within the timeframe that occurs during and before the movies has more restrictions then anything that occurs in the EU after ROTJ. There are only some very loose guidelines for post ROTJ stories.

Anything before and during the timeline of the movies, since around the mid 90's has a team that ensures nothing breaks continuity and fits in with the established canon. So they are not going to put non-canon info on the cards. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Jar Binks

Bib Forlobster
11-07-2002, 07:42 PM
Why would the Empire continue to make clones of Jango?

Sure, he's an accomplished warrior, but he cannot be perfect in all his attributes. Wouldn't the Empire want people with varied skills so that some could perform certain tasks with more skill rather than have a army full of "Jacks of all trades, Masters of None"?

Also, if the model DNA was Jango's, wouldn't they eventually run out of genetic sample and start to have degeneration start when they turned to cloning clones? Sort of like making a copy of a copy of a copy of a videotape. Eventually, your going to be so far into your generations that it is unwatchable.

The idea in AOTC makes sense. It was an emergency army that needed to be made, trained and developed quickly. The principle of cloning an army out of one very proficient warrior was a practical idea. However, continuing to do the same thing from the same warrior over decades seems to be pretty much moronic. It just doesn't seem like the kind of thing the Empire would do.

I could see them continuing to make clones of the best and the brightest, but I can't see all the clones being identical to Jango. For example, maybe there's 100 clones that are identical to one DNA donor (imagine 100 Einsteins) and two hundred of another (imagine 200 Bill Gates). Of course, these are just examples to illustrate my point, but the Bill Gates example would explain why Stormtroopers are such lousy shots and fall down like dominoes. However, this multiple clone army would explain the height differences, different voices and other traits that seem to imply that Stormtroopers are very individualistic.

But then, if Lucas was going to go through all that trouble to try and set this scenario up and explain it in the movies, he might as well just leave it alone and let us continue to believe that Stormtroopers are all individual volunteers from across the galaxy like we have been for the past 25 years!!!:crazed:

Beast
11-11-2002, 06:25 PM
By the way, I was reading about the Audio Commentary for the E2 DVD. Lucas states in the commentary that the Stormtroopers are Clones. He also reveals the secret origins of Yoda. But that is just to earth shattering to reveal here. ;) :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
11-12-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
By the way, I was reading about the Audio Commentary for the E2 DVD. Lucas states in the commentary that the Stormtroopers are Clones. He also reveals the secret origins of Yoda. But that is just to earth shattering to reveal here. ;) :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Of course they're clones! :) And Yoda wasn't Obi Wan's teacher either. And Boba Fett isn't just a cool mysterious bounty hunter...he's in it to pay back a personal grudge. And the Force isn't a special power...it's only for the truely blessed with enough "symbiotes" in their blood. Every one of our childhood expectations about the Saga are up for grabs, so why not the Stormtrooper thing too? ;) In fact, why should he stop there? We should start a whole other thread with ideas of other elements of the story that he can screw with as well. :D

Beast
11-12-2002, 01:28 AM
He's not screwing with anything. They were never established in the OT that they weren't clones. It was never established in the OT that Yoda was Obi-Wan's only teacher. It was never established in the OT who Boba Fett was. So how is it screwing with or altering anything from the trilogy that you have placed on a pedestal? :stupid: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Pendo
11-12-2002, 04:36 AM
I'm not that bothered that they are clones. I'm just glad that we finally have an official answer from Mr. G.L. himsef. It would have been better if they were real humans who enlisted to the forces themselves.

PENDO!

JEDIpartner
11-12-2002, 11:28 AM
Gee... I'm glad I started this thread!!

As for Yoda not being Obi-Wan's teacher, what is THAT about? I dunno about you, but I had MANY teachers in my academic experience. I know that amongst all of those teachers, I had the same art teacher for four years and the same music teacher for 6 years. But... I had other teachers who specialised in certain subjects.

Yoda WAS Obi-Wan's instructor, as was Qui-Gon Jinn. Yoda was Anakin's instructor as was Obi-Wan Kenobi and Chancellor Palpatine!!! :eek:

Rogue II
11-12-2002, 12:03 PM
I think I've finally reached the acceptance stage of Stormtroopers being clones. The Denial and Anger stages went by fairly quickly. Most importantly, I never got around to typing up any death threats and mailing them off to Skywalker ranch. :crazed:

Palpatine was Anakin's instruc....wait a second...are you saying that Palpatine is really Darth Sidious? Great, you ruined Episode 3 for me.;)

JEDIpartner
11-12-2002, 12:15 PM
Buuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! :stupid:

stillakid
11-12-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
He's not screwing with anything. They were never established in the OT that they weren't clones. It was never established in the OT that Yoda was Obi-Wan's only teacher. It was never established in the OT who Boba Fett was. So how is it screwing with or altering anything from the trilogy that you have placed on a pedestal? :stupid: :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

:rolleyes: Oh brother. You and that illogical "pedestal" argument again. I'll type it slower this time. What I said was,
Every one of our childhood expectations about the Saga were being altered. What I'm saying again (for the slow people in the class), is that the Original Trilogy set up certain assumptions concerning various story elements. Whether they were outright spoken and beaten over our heads, or just implied, there were, in fact, certain expectations about the nature of certain story elements. Is it clear yet? Shall I continue? Perhaps in French?

In any case, if George chooses to alter them, that's his perojative, of course. However, we, as fans, aren't required to accept it as being indicative of the quality storytelling that attracted us to the Saga in the first place.

darthvyn
11-12-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Every one of OUR childhood expectations about the Saga

well, that's just it... they're YOUR expectations, not OUR expectations.

The Overlord Returns
11-12-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Of course they're clones! :) And Yoda wasn't Obi Wan's teacher either. And Boba Fett isn't just a cool mysterious bounty hunter...he's in it to pay back a personal grudge. And the Force isn't a special power...it's only for the truely blessed with enough "symbiotes" in their blood. Every one of our childhood expectations about the Saga are up for grabs, so why not the Stormtrooper thing too? ;) In fact, why should he stop there? We should start a whole other thread with ideas of other elements of the story that he can screw with as well. :D

1. THe Stormtroopers as clones thing can go either way. Neither choice really hurts the story, as it was never definitively stated in the OT that they were NOT clones.

2. "there you shall seek out yoda............the jedi Master who instructed me". Well, didn't he? If we rely on visual evidence in episode 2, it can beassumed that yoda takes a very active hand in the teaching of "younglings" which Obi Wan would have been at some point in time. Regardless, Yoda instructed Obi Wan on several occassions, and I got the feeling that Yoda, and to a lesser extent, Windu, were very important "teachers" for Obi Wan in his post QGJ role as Jedi Knight. Yoda has instructed him. Besides, there is no reason for Obi Wan to tell Luke about QGJ, his dead master, and old Ben certainly had a habit of only telling Luke what he NEEDED to know.

3. I won't argue with you on midis...as I didn't agree with that road either ;)

stillakid
11-13-2002, 03:32 PM
Just noticed this other attempt to discredit my solid arguments. :)


Originally posted by JarJarBinks


That Officer is just that, an Imperial Officer. He is not a Stormtrooper, but he may have coordinated the Stormtroopers that were sent down to Tatooine. Remember the rest of Vader's line, which you convinently left off to try to prove your argument. "Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally, Commander. There will be noone to stop us this time." There is no implication of proof that that man is a Stormtrooper, he's an Imperial Officer. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I didn't purposefully neglect anything to prove my point. The guy puts on armor, he's a Stormtrooper. Period. Different Stormtroopers may have different ranks, just as different Clone Troopers have different functions (Pilot, Infantry, etc). So, once again, your mission to put down Star Wars dissension relies on faulty reasoning.

stillakid
11-13-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


well, that's just it... they're YOUR expectations, not OUR expectations.

Perhaps, however the title of this thread

Confirmed? Stormtroopers are CLONES!!! itself implies that this "news" is, well, new. And that in itself implies that there was a previous assumption that Stormtroopers were, in fact, not clones at all. So while there will always be a contingent of die-hard fans who find no fault with the Saga, I believe that there is an even larger body of fans and casual-fans who are surprised (and perhaps even confused or dismayed) at the turn of events that the Prequels are laying out. That's all I'm trying to say. Like it if you want. Nobody is telling you not to. :)

stillakid
11-13-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


1. THe Stormtroopers as clones thing can go either way. Neither choice really hurts the story, as it was never definitively stated in the OT that they were NOT clones.

And despite everything else I said above, I think that you're mostly right about that. Any number of after-the-fact explanations could resolve OT issues with Stormtroopers being clones (ie, height differences, differences in their voices, etc). Other than that, no, there doesn't seem to be any ill effect by making them be clones.

It doesn't really help the story any either, though. As I see it, this would be a much stronger tale if this tyrannical Empire gathered it's army through cohersion and force, rather then just mindlessly growing it in a petrie dish. But, hey, that's just me. :)


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

2. "there you shall seek out yoda............the jedi Master who instructed me". Well, didn't he? If we rely on visual evidence in episode 2, it can beassumed that yoda takes a very active hand in the teaching of "younglings" which Obi Wan would have been at some point in time. Regardless, Yoda instructed Obi Wan on several occassions, and I got the feeling that Yoda, and to a lesser extent, Windu, were very important "teachers" for Obi Wan in his post QGJ role as Jedi Knight. Yoda has instructed him. Besides, there is no reason for Obi Wan to tell Luke about QGJ, his dead master, and old Ben certainly had a habit of only telling Luke what he NEEDED to know.

I won't even go back into this again. There are a ton of older threads where we argued back and forth about this problem. In the end, the PT defenders failed to convince me that my position was incorrect so there really hasn't been any point in "discussing" it since. I have my own theory about why Qui Gon was included in The Phantom Menace (primarily because of sloppy writing), and unless some bombshell is dropped in EP III to prove it wrong, I won't be convinced otherwise. :)



Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

3. I won't argue with you on midis...as I didn't agree with that road either ;)

Thanks. I take the support where I can get it. :)

JEDIpartner
11-15-2002, 10:07 AM
During the Kamino Battle as Jango goes up the ramp, George Lucas says that Jango bumps his head on the entryway. He said this was done to establish a connection between Jango and the Stormtroopers. He said that the "head bumping" trait was passed on to the Stormtroopers from Jango's genetic make-up.

Also... I think it was either John Knoll or Ben Burtt who says that the scene in which we see the Clone Troopers in formation on Kamino is when the audience "realises these are Stormtroopers."


Sorry to say it, but there is more evidence for those in denial... :o

The Overlord Returns
11-15-2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
During the Kamino Battle as Jango goes up the ramp, George Lucas says that Jango bumps his head on the entryway. He said this was done to establish a connection between Jango and the Stormtroopers. He said that the "head bumping" trait was passed on to the Stormtroopers from Jango's genetic make-up.


Sorry to say it, but there is more evidence for those in denial... :o

I hadn't noticed the head bump thing in theatres...but damn it all if it aint true!

I think that's a rather funny lil way of connecting them together, myself.

JEDIpartner
11-15-2002, 10:30 AM
I thought so, too. I chuckled to myself when George made that comment. Aaaaaaannnnnd... since George made the comment about that being bred into the Stormtroopers... that ends the arguement right here.

Stormtroopers are, in fact, CLONES!

El Chuxter
11-15-2002, 01:07 PM
"Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars."

For me, that quote implies that the days of using clones in wars is over. I think it's another after-the-fact excuse for Lucas to sanitize the violence in the Star Wars saga. It seems a bit more acceptable to kill a clone who was created for it than to kill some guy who had a life before he became a 'Trooper.

Which makes me fear the exchange between the two Stormtroopers by the tractor beam controls in the Death Star will be deleted for the Archival Edition. :(

LTBasker
11-15-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
[BWhich makes me fear the exchange between the two Stormtroopers by the tractor beam controls in the Death Star will be deleted for the Archival Edition. :( [/B]

Probably modified to fit Jango's voice or something.

New version:
"What is going on."
"Probably just another drill."
[Clank]
"What was that?"
"Just another trooper hitting their head on a door even though we're supposed to be Clones but we change in height."
"Maybe we're not the same Clones?"
"No, Lucas said that the headbang was passed on to us from Jango Fett and he was kinda short so if it was a tall trooper that hit his head then we have to be Jango's clones. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense."
[Obi-Wan runs out while they're distracted cause he can't stand the clone idea anymore!]

The Overlord Returns
11-15-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
"Years ago, you served my father in the Clone Wars."

For me, that quote implies that the days of using clones in wars is over. I think it's another after-the-fact excuse for Lucas to sanitize the violence in the Star Wars saga. It seems a bit more acceptable to kill a clone who was created for it than to kill some guy who had a life before he became a 'Trooper.

Which makes me fear the exchange between the two Stormtroopers by the tractor beam controls in the Death Star will be deleted for the Archival Edition. :(

Clone war seems to just have been the name attached because it was the first case of clones being used in the Galaxy. I mean, the rebellion was just that, right, a rebellion. Might as well be as literal as possible.

Not to mention the fact that, until the rebel alliance starts attacking imperial bases and such, there probably were no wars post Colone war, because the empire ruled with an iron fist.

stillakid
11-15-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
I thought so, too. I chuckled to myself when George made that comment. Aaaaaaannnnnd... since George made the comment about that being bred into the Stormtroopers... that ends the arguement right here.

Stormtroopers are, in fact, CLONES!

If George says so, then it must be true. :)

And...they all look like this...

The Overlord Returns
11-15-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


If George says so, then it must be true. :)

And...they all look like this...

Hey.........Isn't that the guy that played the creepy, leather clad Nazi in Raiders of the lost Ark?? :)

And......what makes you think he is a storm trooper?

JEDIpartner
11-15-2002, 04:15 PM
he's not a Stormtrooper.

...and wouldn't that guy in "Raiders" be the one named "Toht"?

Beast
11-15-2002, 04:15 PM
Because he doesn't understand the difference between an Imperial Officer and a StormTrooper. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

The Overlord Returns
11-15-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr


...and wouldn't that guy in "Raiders" be the one named "Toht"?

Well I can't be expected to remember EVERYTHING can I?

...well...can I?

stillakid
11-15-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Because he doesn't understand the difference between an Imperial Officer and a StormTrooper. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I understand more than you want to believe. I know that with your duties as the Unofficial Star Wars Policeman, running around from Forum to Forum, Thread to Thread, Post to Post, putting out fires of dissension whereever they may rise up, you don't really have all that much time to truly comprehend what people are really saying. So I'll excuse you from this one. ;) :D

MYOFB and FO!!

2-1B
11-15-2002, 11:10 PM
Well I'm still being bullheaded about this Jango head bump, because it doesn't look like a headbump to me. I swear I can see clearance over his head ! :D

But I'm gonna toss in the disc later and do a zoom on that - maybe my eyes can deceive me and I shouldn't trust them ?

Beast
11-15-2002, 11:14 PM
Apperantly not, since you're calling that Imperial Officer that is wearing Commander insignia, and an Imperial Officer uniform a Stormtrooper. And for your information, this is the only Star Wars forum that I actually spend my time on. I comprehend perfectly what people are trying to say. It's a bit difficult with you though, since all you offer is your so-called facts instead of your opinions. By the way, you posting it on a message board, makes it everyone's business. So I think that if you don't like me commenting on things, stop opening your yap. Thank you for playing. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
11-16-2002, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Well I'm still being bullheaded about this Jango head bump, because it doesn't look like a headbump to me. I swear I can see clearance over his head ! :D

But I'm gonna toss in the disc later and do a zoom on that - maybe my eyes can deceive me and I shouldn't trust them ?

Maybe it's the rain. It hits the tail, then runs along the inward slanted end of the tail, then the downward slope towards the loading ramp, and it really picks up in bucket fulls and that's what hit Jango's head at just the right time. ;)

Exhaust Port
11-16-2002, 09:58 AM
Back and to the left. Back and to the left. Back and to the left.

stillakid
11-16-2002, 11:57 PM
You know, I've been putting some more thought into this whole thing. Even brought it up with a couple friends this weekend.

We ended up with a couple of questions that need to be addressed concerning continuity with the OT (afterall, I do worship it, you know :rolleyes: )

Anyhow, for the sake of argument, let's entertain the idea that all the Stormtroopers are all clones:

1. Where do the officers come from? Now, I'll admit I'm not much of a military man, so I put the question to our resident military experts. I've always assumed that in order to be an officer, you had to be promoted from the lower ranks. So if Officers aren't Clones, as JJB would have us believe, then where are the Officers coming from?

2.
LUKE: Yes, sir. I think those new droids are going to work out fine. In fact, I, uh, was also thinking about our agreement about my staying on another season. And if these new droids do work out, I want to transmit my application to the Academy this year. The assumption has always been that the Academy was an arm of the Empire and that Biggs planned to "jump ship" and join up with the Rebel Alliance instead. Now, I'll admit that significant portions of that statement could be considered EU, however, even without the details, one can reasonably read between the lines of Luke's actual dialogue and surmise that the Academy is some kind of training school for the military (essentially getting Luke involved with the "war" which is what Owen is trying to keep from happening). So, if that's the case, what are they training for? They're not training them to be Stormtroopers in our new-fangled Star Wars reality. Clones are filling those shoes apparently. So, what's the Academy all about then?

derek
11-17-2002, 12:34 AM
1. Where do the officers come from? Now, I'll admit I'm not much of a military man, so I put the question to our resident military experts. I've always assumed that in order to be an officer, you had to be promoted from the lower ranks. So if Officers aren't Clones, as JJB would have us believe, then where are the Officers coming from?

in the US military, for example, one can command lower soldiers without ever being one themself. they attend the miilitary academy and upon graduation, are assigned the rank of officer, by-passing the enlisted rank. but with that said, i now quote the Star Wars visual dictionary, page 35:

"in non combat situations, stormtrooper officers wear distinctive black tunics and caps...........all stormtrooper officers are proven soldiers, and in combat they wear body armor like any other trooper. officers in field units may wear colored shoulder pauldrons as high-visable rank indicators."


maybe the officers are not clones, just the rank and file troopers are the clones. so if two troppers of different heights are seen, maybe one is a clone, and the other is a non-clone officer, or they are both non-clone officers of different heights.:)

also, in the audio commentary, lucas said his original idea was for boba fett to be a rogue stormtrooper, so maybe he didn't "sell out" the idea of boba being a clone after all.

SQueek
11-17-2002, 11:03 AM
wow people are still arguing about this, the dvd says over and over storm troopers are clones, the audio commentary george even says he has jango hit his head stormtrooper style and says its a clone trait of jango.

stillakid
11-17-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by derek


in the US military, for example, one can command lower soldiers without ever being one themself. they attend the miilitary academy and upon graduation, are assigned the rank of officer, by-passing the enlisted rank. but with that said, i now quote the Star Wars visual dictionary, page 35:

"in non combat situations, stormtrooper officers wear distinctive black tunics and caps...........all stormtrooper officers are proven soldiers, and in combat they wear body armor like any other trooper. officers in field units may wear colored shoulder pauldrons as high-visable rank indicators."




Thank you, Derek, for that. Without having read that specific passage, that was always what I assumed to be the case. There would be no need for them to always wear the armor so instead the Stormtroopers would put on their "dress blacks." I see what you're saying about the officers suiting up, but as I see it, a Stormtrooper is a Stormtrooper, rank or not. As this should be the case, the photo I posted should be the template for all the pudgy Stormtroopers we see throughout the OT.

This begs the question though about the Clones. We are specifically led to believe in AOTC that ALL the Clone Troopers we see are clones of Jango. However, there are clearly officers and different rankings amongst them. So why wouldn't this same logic apply to OT Stormtroopers as well? Why would the Empire go to the effort of creating a Clone Stormtrooper army and have an entirely different process for creating Stormtroopers who are part-time officers/part-time soldiers?

And still, what's the Academy for if not to recruit soldiers for the Empire?

Dave_Cameron
11-18-2002, 10:12 AM
I always thought of an Academy as training for officers not grunts.

LTBasker
11-18-2002, 10:15 AM
Could've been academy for Pilots, since Biggs and Luke were great pilots. I doubt they'd get much pilot training in Stormtrooper ranks, and the Rebels I doubt had the funds to host training courses. Judging from the scene that Vader tells the two TIE Pilots to come with him, they're definitely not Clones. Would a clone really strut around Vader? :D

Rogue II
11-18-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by stillakid

And still, what's the Academy for if not to recruit soldiers for the Empire?

Prior to R.O.T.C. (Reserve Officer Training Corps), anyone who wanted to be an officer in the US Military had to go through one of the Academys. Anyone who enlists in any of the US military services has to go through Basic Training. There Academy is a school, Basic Training is....well...see Full Metal Jacket:D Basic is 6-12 weeks depending on the service.

Pilots are almost always officers. There were enlisted pilots in WWII, and I'm pretty sure the Army has Warrant Officer Helicoptor Pilots. (Warrant Officers are between the Enlisted Corps and the Officer Corps, but that's not really important right now.)

My guess is that once someone graduates from the Academy, they are sent off to be pilots, intelligence officers, field officers(General Veers), and naval officers (Capt Piett), among other things.

It would have made sense to me that some Stormtroopers are not clones, but I'm not the one to decide that. If GL says they are clones, fine, they are clones.

stillakid
11-18-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II

It would have made sense to me that some Stormtroopers are not clones, but I'm not the one to decide that. If GL says they are clones, fine, they are clones.

Thank you, Rogue II, for that information. Very helpful...


I think that it is your last statement which causes all the fuss. I'm with you completely. My questions revolve around trying to iron out the discrepencies regarding whether or not a guy wearing a Stormtrooper uniform (armor) is a Stormtrooper or not. According to some here, and to G. Lucas, a spade is not always a spade. But this is just a continuation of GL's behavior toward continuity across the Saga.

The Overlord Returns
11-18-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Thank you, Rogue II, for that information. Very helpful...


I think that it is your last statement which causes all the fuss. I'm with you completely. My questions revolve around trying to iron out the discrepencies regarding whether or not a guy wearing a Stormtrooper uniform (armor) is a Stormtrooper or not. According to some here, and to G. Lucas, a spade is not always a spade. But this is just a continuation of GL's behavior toward continuity across the Saga.

What's unclear to me is who this person that you're speaking of, the guy that supposedly wears the armor, but some are saying is NOT a stormtrooper, actually appears in the trilogy....??

Mandalorian Candidat
11-18-2002, 04:19 PM
I just bought my first pack of ANH cards on Friday and got kinda excited when I read the unit classification on the Stormie card. I thought I had some news until I accidentally stumbled into this forum and found this thread.

I'm slightly disappointed with the whole clone/not-a-clone issue. It does chip away from my childhood experience with the whole SW phenonemon. My opinion is that Lucas didn't think up this particular detail until he started writing EP1 or EP2 then thought this would be a neat-o thing to throw in. Just like the midichlorian thingy. Kind of like revisionist history, I suppose.

I just have one question: If the Imperial Stormtroopers are supposed to be based on Jango Fett, then who are the concept Stormies based on??? ;)

The Overlord Returns
11-18-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat

I just have one question: If the Imperial Stormtroopers are supposed to be based on Jango Fett, then who are the concept Stormies based on??? ;)

Bo' Shek ;)

darthvyn
11-18-2002, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Bo' Shek ;)

man, then they get lightsabers AND cool sideburns!!! that's too cool!

Bib Forlobster
11-19-2002, 09:08 PM
The core of all these problems is that G. Lucas is making this up as he goes along. He's been doing so since Episode IV and I'm sure it'll continue through Episode III.

It's obvious in the Original Trilogy. Does anyone hear really believe that Lucas knew that Darth Vader was Luke's Father and Leia was Luke's sister in 77?!?!


Of course not. It's also the reason that Obi-Wan appears to have Alzheimers in EPIV. Not remembering R2 or not telling Luke about the Darth/Father connection, etc. There's a great many items like this in the OT that have been explained away to death. Some reasons sounding pretty good, others fairly weak. However, we all came to accept it, deal with it and move on and still enjoy the movies for what they are. Just good, simple, entertainment.

George is continuing the same thing with the Prequels. My least favorite being the Midi-chlorides connection to the Force. Man, I really hate that one and I'm so glad they didn't bring it up in EpII.
Anyway, even the expanded universe continuity is disrupted. I've never been a huge fan of the books, but I thought that Lucas approved all the stories and continuity before they were published. It should have some merit.

None of this seems to matter to George. What can we do? Pretty much nothing. He's going to do whatever he wants. Personally, I like the idea of the clones, but as I've stated before, I don't like the idea that all Stormtroopers are still based on the same Jango DNA years later. We've been led to believe all these years something totally different and now we're being given a different definition when it doesn't really need to be touched.

Again, it doesn't really matter because it's George's creation and he can do with it what he wants. I'll just accept it, learn to like the idea and still enjoy all the movies as long as EPIII doesn't go way off the deep end of SW continuity.

Hawkwind
11-22-2002, 12:50 PM
Perhaps it's just all the basic st's who are clones and the rest pilots ,scout's,humans, drivers,etc.. are not clones and were recruited for their skills at theri chosen job.

RooJay
11-23-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Bib Forlobster
The core of all these problems is that G. Lucas is making this up as he goes along. He's been doing so since Episode IV and I'm sure it'll continue through Episode III.

It's obvious in the Original Trilogy. Does anyone hear really believe that Lucas knew that Darth Vader was Luke's Father and Leia was Luke's sister in 77?!?!


Of course not. It's also the reason that Obi-Wan appears to have Alzheimers in EPIV. Not remembering R2 or not telling Luke about the Darth/Father connection, etc. There's a great many items like this in the OT that have been explained away to death. Some reasons sounding pretty good, others fairly weak. However, we all came to accept it, deal with it and move on and still enjoy the movies for what they are. Just good, simple, entertainment.

George is continuing the same thing with the Prequels. My least favorite being the Midi-chlorides connection to the Force. Man, I really hate that one and I'm so glad they didn't bring it up in EpII.
Anyway, even the expanded universe continuity is disrupted. I've never been a huge fan of the books, but I thought that Lucas approved all the stories and continuity before they were published. It should have some merit.

None of this seems to matter to George. What can we do? Pretty much nothing. He's going to do whatever he wants. Personally, I like the idea of the clones, but as I've stated before, I don't like the idea that all Stormtroopers are still based on the same Jango DNA years later. We've been led to believe all these years something totally different and now we're being given a different definition when it doesn't really need to be touched.

Again, it doesn't really matter because it's George's creation and he can do with it what he wants. I'll just accept it, learn to like the idea and still enjoy all the movies as long as EPIII doesn't go way off the deep end of SW continuity.

Thank you.
I have actually missed out on a lot of this discussion, having just had to read through three full pages of posts. Your post Bib Forlobster, I think, sums up the real issue at hand here - a LOT of fans have long harbored deep seeded notions about exactly what they personally think the prequels should be. When the prequels began to arrive, many of these people were extremely disappointed that the story did not turn out they way they had expected. True, the prequels thus far have had, what many may consider to be major plot holes, poor narative, and seeming contradictions in regards to perceptions formed during the classic trilogy; however, it may also be argued that even the venerated classics were plagued at times by some of these same issues.
The point is this, it's true, as I have come to realize, that while he may have had the basic concept for the entire story in his head since finishing writing ANH, Lucas is indeed making most of this up as he goes. Perhaps he has felt pressured into rushing, if you will, the rest of his story due in part to fan expectations coupled with a sense of his own advancing age (he ain't gettin' any younger, and we haven't gotten any more patient). Maybe, until he decided to announce that he was begining work on the prequels, he hadn't really sat down and thought a lot about where he truly wanted to go with these stories, and once he had announced the prequels, fan expectations may have caused him to be a bit hasty. Just perhaps.
Some who know me will understand, others who only think they know what I'm about, or who refuse to see my point, that I truly and honestly am not completely happy with the way the story has gone either. I have always held many expectations myself of what the prequels should look like and how they should've turned out. I wasn't terribly fond of Jar Jar at first. I would rather the concept of midichlorians had never been devised by Lucas. I'm still not entirely sure that Anakin having been so young in TPM was the best way to go about it. I have always been certain in my own mind that clones had been banned after the Clone Wars, and that the Empire was entirely protected and policed by a small core of enlistees and perhaps millions of draftees. I have always wanted that to be the case. Thing is, as my good friend Mr. Forlobster has stated "it doesn't really matter because it's George's creation and he can do with it what he wants". I too will accept it, learn to like it, and continue to enjoy every movie (and most of the books, the large majority of the toys, and, God willing, even the animated series!) that takes place in this wonderful, imaginative, exciting universe Mr. Lucas has created for us. I am a movie lover. For me, Star Wars means much more than a simple movie - it is an experience. Much like going to an amusement park and riding the rides: sometimes the lines might seem almost too long, sometimes the rides may seem way too short in comparison, some rides may even be not quite as fun as others, but once I've ridden them all, I'll still get back in line and ride them all again, I'll still have as much fun as I had the first time, and I'll still come back to the park over, and over, and over again. There are a lot of movie websites out there; most of them have their own movie forums. This Star Wars website is the only site to whose forums I belong.
Some, Mr. Still/I]a[I]kid I am willing to bet, may read this and take it to mean that I insist that everyone who likes Star Wars must like everything about Star Wars, and that anyone who doesn't must not be a true fan. What I am really trying to stress here is that each of us will walk away from Star Wars with our own, very personal experience; some of us may like all of what we see, some may dislike parts of the whole, still others may not like the experience at all, but in the end, the only thing that really matters here is the experience itself. If we've had fun, then we'll come back the next time. If we haven't enjoyed what we've been offered, then we still have the ability to look away the next time. A long time ago, George Lucas decided that he had a story he wanted to share with us. I tend not to believe that, while he may probably have hoped that we'd all hop onboard and enjoy the ride, he was setting out to do anything other than tell his story; HIS story. It may not have turned out the way each of us, in our own mind, and through our own perceptions and expectations, may have wanted, but it is his story and he is free to tell it any way he chooses. Even if that means changing a few peoples preconceived notions about it.
Whether or not all stormtroopers turn out to have been clones all along is for George alone to decide. I suppose I will learn to live with it (for God's sake...he can hardly take back the prequels now!), and I must admit the idea of clone stormtroopers has become much less offenive to me lately (although, I'm still not completely convinced of the idea being canon), but if that had ruined the experience for me I would simply move on to something more to my liking. (By the way, just because the Star Wars Visual Dictionary says it's so, it still doesn't mean that this is the final answer on the subject. As many of those who are averse to the prequels and the EU always seem to be so quick to point out, if it doesn't appear or isn't addressed directly in film, then it needn't be the truth.) Do I like every little detail George has put into the prequels? Certainly not. Have I had fun regardless so far? You bet your sweet bippy! Will I come back for more tomorrow? Dude...I'm already there!

May the Force be with us.

2-1B
11-23-2002, 12:56 AM
Hey, I think I remember reading on the back of the '95 Stormie card that they were "rumored" to be clones . . .

Well I've thought for a loooooong time that they were clones. With Leia referencing the "Clone Wars", asking Luke if he isn't too short and her father being against the Empire and their legions of shock troops, I always assumed they were clones.

As for them ALL being clones of Jango, well that's silly and I don't really care for that part of the storyline.

Yeah, I know some of the other stormies are of different height, but I just attribute that to a technical "error" in which the filmmakers were not careful enough in what heights were used . . .

Regardless, I never thought anyone in the blacks or grays would actually suit up in the stormie outfits.

Why would there be some stormies and also some guys in black on the ground in Endor ?

Why was that guy with Luke's saber not dressed as a stormie?

:D

stillakid
11-23-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by RooJay

Some, Mr. Still/I]a[I]kid I am willing to bet, may read this and take it to mean that I insist that everyone who likes Star Wars must like everything about Star Wars, and that anyone who doesn't must not be a true fan. What I am really trying to stress here is that each of us will walk away from Star Wars with our own, very personal experience; some of us may like all of what we see, some may dislike parts of the whole, still others may not like the experience at all, but in the end, the only thing that really matters here is the experience itself. If we've had fun, then we'll come back the next time.

Nope. :) I understand everything you're saying and agree for the most part. In fact, on the contrary, I've often been in the gunsights of those who think that since I argue what could be considered, anti-fan viewpoints, that I should walk away. Maybe that's true. But like you, there was something about the films when I was young that drew me in. This shouldn't preclude me from having a negative opinion about the saga as it continues.

You also mention our preconceptions about what the Prequels should be. For those who really pay attention to what I write here, you'll notice that I base my points of view entirely on things George has said in the past. It is his story and his previous interviews laid out some of the ideas that we would be seeing in the Prequels. Now he's changing those things, which is his perojative, of course. But after building up our expectations with ideas that were very interesting and quite good, he altered them...and in the eyes of many people, he altered them for the worse.

So, if he wants Stormtroopers to be clones, then so be it. But it is his responsibility to make sure it doesn't upset the established continuity of the OT. And it also doesn't require us to like it. :)

Rogue II
11-23-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
So, if he wants Stormtroopers to be clones, then so be it. But it is his responsibility to make sure it doesn't upset the established continuity of the OT. And it also doesn't require us to like it. :)

*cough*cough*Greedoshootingfirst*cough*:D

Bib Forlobster
11-23-2002, 06:40 PM
I just thought of something. If Stormtroopers are clones, then at what point and why did they go from being called "Clone Troopers" to being called "Stormtroopers"?

Beast
11-23-2002, 06:49 PM
As far as I can recall, they are never called CloneTroopers in the movie, they are only ever referred to as "The Clone Army of the Republic" or "The Clone Army". StormTroopers could be the name that they adopt in E3, when the Empire rises to power. It could even happen in the years between E3 and E4, around the time that armor is modified to the familiar Stormie version. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
11-23-2002, 07:10 PM
Then again, there are several names that are canon but still not mentioned in the movie. Like: Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, Shaak Ti, Luminara, Super Battle Droids, Destroyer Droids (Only said as Droideka and Destroyers), etc. so even if their names weren't spoken, most likely the title "Clone Trooper" is the official canon name for them.

stillakid
12-04-2002, 07:20 PM
See photo:

JEDIpartner
12-05-2002, 02:39 PM
Assigned names, perhaps?

LTBasker
12-05-2002, 02:45 PM
Nah, it's CCG so it's just EU. The whole Clone thing sure does shoot the whole Davin Felth story to nothingness though, which while it was pure EU it was rather interesting. 'Course they were basing the fact that Stormtroopers are Clones on something that showed up on a CCG card. So wow, it already contradicts itself! I'm sure they'd just have their own numbers like TK-421.

aceguide
12-05-2002, 03:34 PM
Clones = Stormies

I feel that the order is important. MANY stormtroopers are clones. Once the Emporer presumably takes over the Republic he can very easily change the directive of what is a massive Clone Army, rename them, and ravage the universe. Hey, he's the Emporer - he can do whatever he wants.

As the Empire grows star systems will be taken over and the army will continue to grow. He has plenty of allies now that would join his army in a second. Thus, not EVERY stormie is a clone. However, the Kaminos will presumably continue their work producing other clones NOT NECESSARILY from the Jango DNA.

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-18-2002, 11:04 AM
This EU argument bores me, and I'll tell you why.
I will re-post here the same arguments I have in the Vader thread on the EPIII board. It may not be a popular opinion, but it is one grounded in reality.

Lucas is not a guru with a well laid out plan. He just likes to mess with our heads by pretending he is sometimes.
From beginning to end the writing of Star Wars, all of it's episodes has been a fluid process for him.
He didn't decide Vader was Luke's father until he wrote the end of ESB.
He didn't decide Leia was Luke's sister until he wrote the end of ROTJ.
He never planned 6 films. Hell when he made a new hope he never even planned 3.
Darth maul, Dooku, Jango Fett and the Clone's. All spur of the moment cool little idea's he threw in as he wrote.
No grand plan. No lengthy background notes.
Just him and a typewriter throwing out cool ideas in a cool galaxy.

So the clonetrooper/stormtrooper thing. The clone wars. Sounds cool doesn't it.
A throw away line in a film he intended to be a stand alone.
Now years down the line fans have made this throw away a key event. He has to mention it, has to deal with it. so he sits down and thinks.....

How to introduce clones. Hmmmm. Let me think. I know. A clone army. I'll make them look like stormtroopers. No. A "bit" like stormtroopers not exactly the same. Then I can decide later what I want to do.

That's how it went. The bottom line is that Lucas himself has probably still not decided, or is doing so now, whether the stormtroopers are clones or not.
Certainly they were not portrayed that way in the OT, however you twist it. Why would they be. Lucas hadn't even thought up the idea of clonetroopers when he wrote the OT. So if he makes them clones he'll have made another contradiction. A consequence of a fluid writing process. No way around it.
Either he makes cool films with fresh new ideas and occasionally contradicts himself or he makes re-hashes that tie in completely with the OT but can never be as good.
I know which I'd prefer.

Now the EU thing.
Due to everything I mentioned above EU has as much write to be regarded as cannon when discussing unconfirmed facts as the films.
If an EU novel states that Obi wan is really a sith android, then we can assume it's a bit off the mark there. If there's nothing in the films to contradict the EU. Go with the EU, it's better than wild speculation and desperately trying to bend the film to suit an argument.
The CCG game says stormtroopers are clones. Fine some of them if not all are clones.
Lucas say's they are clones. They are clones. Until he decides some of them, or all of them aren't. Then they're not.

stillakid
12-19-2002, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Emperors_Hand_2211
This EU argument bores me, and I'll tell you why.
I will re-post here the same arguments I have in the Vader thread on the EPIII board. It may not be a popular opinion, but it is one grounded in reality.

Lucas is not a guru with a well laid out plan. He just likes to mess with our heads by pretending he is sometimes.
From beginning to end the writing of Star Wars, all of it's episodes has been a fluid process for him.
He didn't decide Vader was Luke's father until he wrote the end of ESB.
He didn't decide Leia was Luke's sister until he wrote the end of ROTJ.
He never planned 6 films. Hell when he made a new hope he never even planned 3.
Darth maul, Dooku, Jango Fett and the Clone's. All spur of the moment cool little idea's he threw in as he wrote.
No grand plan. No lengthy background notes.
Just him and a typewriter throwing out cool ideas in a cool galaxy.

So the clonetrooper/stormtrooper thing. The clone wars. Sounds cool doesn't it.
A throw away line in a film he intended to be a stand alone.
Now years down the line fans have made this throw away a key event. He has to mention it, has to deal with it. so he sits down and thinks.....

How to introduce clones. Hmmmm. Let me think. I know. A clone army. I'll make them look like stormtroopers. No. A "bit" like stormtroopers not exactly the same. Then I can decide later what I want to do.

That's how it went. The bottom line is that Lucas himself has probably still not decided, or is doing so now, whether the stormtroopers are clones or not.
Certainly they were not portrayed that way in the OT, however you twist it. Why would they be. Lucas hadn't even thought up the idea of clonetroopers when he wrote the OT. So if he makes them clones he'll have made another contradiction. A consequence of a fluid writing process. No way around it.
Either he makes cool films with fresh new ideas and occasionally contradicts himself or he makes re-hashes that tie in completely with the OT but can never be as good.
I know which I'd prefer.

Now the EU thing.
Due to everything I mentioned above EU has as much write to be regarded as cannon when discussing unconfirmed facts as the films.
If an EU novel states that Obi wan is really a sith android, then we can assume it's a bit off the mark there. If there's nothing in the films to contradict the EU. Go with the EU, it's better than wild speculation and desperately trying to bend the film to suit an argument.
The CCG game says stormtroopers are clones. Fine some of them if not all are clones.
Lucas say's they are clones. They are clones. Until he decides some of them, or all of them aren't. Then they're not.

I want to assure you that I'm not arguing with you here. However, you make some very definitive statements up there about what Lucas did and didn't do, what he knew and didn't know, how he wrote and how he didn't write.

What I want to know is, how do you know? I'd be extremely interested in seeing the proof of any of that. Please post the original articles, original interviews, the sources for each and/or links to such for every statement you've made above. Thanks! :)

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-19-2002, 04:29 AM
Oh no proof. I should have put I feel or I think a lot of times in that post to clarify that I guess.
I haven't really seen many (any) articles from Lucas about the way he writes. He strikes me as quite a guarded guy and I don't think it's something he's ever likely to share with us, which is fair enough I guess. As such you can't put your finger on any particular quote, but from watching documentaries etc you get some feel for the way he works even if he never says anything concrete.
So from that and the way prequels, particularly, but ROTJ to a lesser extent progressed, you can get a sense of the way he does things.
I could be wrong (it has occasionally happened ;) ). The evidence can be interpreted in different ways.
It's equally possible that he actually has a grand masterplan, but given the number of minor kinks I doubt it. I'd rather believe he is a genius who has spontaneous and wonderful ideas than someone who wrote a half cocked masterplan that doesn't tie together properly.

I don't get the impression he thought much about the background of the galaxy he was creating when he wrote the OT. When he says he made notes, I think they were probably just that. Notes.

I feel he made TPM for himself and his kids, which may be why as a film it doesn't sit perfectly with the feel of the others. As you say AOTC was a fan film through and through. Obi Wan's throw away lines to Anakin, Bobba/Jango, Yoda fighting etc. It worked really well and I think as a whole people were more welcoming of it than TPM. Hopefully EP3 will follow suit.
As for the clonetrooper stormtrooper thing. I can't help thinking that if Lucas had originally intended stormtroopers to be identical clones he would have selected extras of a similar height and dubbed one voice over them all. He does seem to be a bit of a stickler for details, and certainly from reading an interview with Gary Kurtz I get the impression he was even more so in those days. If he wanted them to be clones than he would have made them seem as close to it as possible using the technology available at the time.
Given that he didn't do this I have to assume he hadn't thought of it. Which is fine. If he decides that the clonetroopers become stormtroopers then there are several ways that by the time ANH comes around that the ranks would swelled by normal recruits.
What bugs me about the EU arguments is that if Lucas decides to explicitly show clonetroopers evolving into stormtroopers then he won't explain how in ANH not all of them are identical. So the only way we will get an explanation for this, and many other things is the EU. It exitsts to further the story in ways a film can't and to patch holes in continuity. It's valuable and useful and I wish people would stop knocking it.

TheJediCharles
12-20-2002, 03:37 PM
If I agreed with Emperor's Hand 2211's point of view any more, I'd be HIS clone.

:)

stillakid
12-20-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Emperors_Hand_2211
So the only way we will get an explanation for this, and many other things is the EU. It exitsts to further the story in ways a film can't and to patch holes in continuity. It's valuable and useful and I wish people would stop knocking it.

Maybe so, but as a general release filmmaker, Lucas kinda has a responsibility to answer any questions that might crop up on film. I don't see the mass audience sitting well with the idea that they have to study prior to watching a movie so that it makes sense.

SW_Loyalist
12-21-2002, 10:30 AM
Responsibility?

We are talking about movies, right?

Besides, if the mass audience could speak right now, they'd hardly be either EU readers or concerned about if Stormies are clones.

If there is one constant with the PT so far that everyone can see, both mass audience and excessively analytical fans alike, is that is steep in mystery and explanations are due to come.

If we had all our answers now before Episode III came out then what would the point be to see it, mass audience or hawk-eyed fan?

PoggleTheGreater
01-07-2003, 04:14 PM
I agree that they are not clones. The clones were ordered by Dukoo for himself to overpower Palpatine after he helped him take over the universe, weren't they? The Republic (and Palpatine) only luckily stumbled onto them. Dooku obviously dies in III, and I don't think Palpatine would be interested in or need to create any more clones. Before he becomes the "Emperor" he will have control of the Republic and the Seperatists, because he is the secret leader of both. The militaries of the universe will be combined into one, except for a "small band of rebels." So the Stormtroopers are probably offspring of the military of the PT. Since the Clones age twice as fast, and there probably aren't any new clones after III, the clones will probably all be dead by ANH. What do think?

Rogue II
01-07-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
I agree that they are not clones. The clones were ordered by Dukoo for himself to overpower Palpatine after he helped him take over the universe, weren't they? The Republic (and Palpatine) only luckily stumbled onto them. Dooku obviously dies in III, and I don't think Palpatine would be interested in or need to create any more clones. Before he becomes the "Emperor" he will have control of the Republic and the Seperatists, because he is the secret leader of both. The militaries of the universe will be combined into one, except for a "small band of rebels." So the Stormtroopers are probably offspring of the military of the PT. Since the Clones age twice as fast, and there probably aren't any new clones after III, the clones will probably all be dead by ANH. What do think?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but in the audio commentary of ATOC, George Lucas said that Stormtroopers are clones.

I don't really like Stormtroopers being clones, and I don't think it makes total sense, but what can you do.

PoggleTheGreater
01-07-2003, 05:58 PM
Sorry, I only read the first page when I posted this, but I've now read them all. I still think that the stormtroopers we see in the CT are not clones themselves, but maybe offspring of clones.

I'd also like to say that I think Lucas thinks these things out more than some of you give him credit for. After all, he's been cooking up the whole story in the back of his mind for about 30 years. I'm sure he's well aware of the contradictions that will be caused if certain things happen. I'm sure whatever the story turns out to be, it will work and will be in harmony with the CT.

LTBasker
01-15-2003, 08:04 PM
I just recently thought of this, but if Stormtroopers are Clones, and Han is a Clone, that's why he was able to wear the uniform so well and knew the protocols, they why is he so rebelious? Clones would be prefered because they would be genetically engineered to follow orders like the Kaminoians did, but Han was so free-willed there was no way he was gonna take an order. However we don't see any other rebelious clones... Maybe he's connected to the Clone that wasn't chowing down when everyone else was. :p

Rogue II
01-15-2003, 08:06 PM
Han Solo is not a clone. (I hope)

Beast
01-15-2003, 08:47 PM
But according to the EU, Han was in training to be an Imperial Pilot. And we've seen unmasked pilots in the movies. So while the Stormtrooper forces could all be clones, that doesn't mean that the officers and pilots are. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

RooJay
01-15-2003, 08:57 PM
Not that I didn't already know that Han Solo was never a clone, but...we've seen unmasked pilots?!

Beast
01-15-2003, 09:10 PM
Yeah, look at Empire Strikes Back. Star Destroyer Pilots are unmasked Imperial Pilots. We also see them in Return of the Jedi. And both Darth Vader and The Emperor have unmasked Imperial Pilots flying their shuttles. We're not seeing clones there. In my opinion, the clones are just the grunt Stormies. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
01-16-2003, 06:38 AM
But what about the arguments of Han being a clone because the armor fit him about perfectly, but Luke's didn't fit??

sith_killer_99
01-16-2003, 06:55 AM
:rolleyes:

Rogue II
01-16-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
:rolleyes:

Exactly.


]Originally posted by LTBasker But what about the arguments of Han being a clone because the armor fit him about perfectly, but Luke's didn't fit??
Because Luke is a scrawny 18-19 yr old kid who still hasn't finished growing.

mini-rock
01-16-2003, 02:15 PM
From the Visual Dictionary:

Imperial Stormtroopers
"Imperial Stormtroopers are first-strike units sent into critical combat situations in support of both the Imperial Star Fleet and the Imperial Army. Highly disciplined and completely loyal to the Emperor, stormtoopers carry out their orders without hesitaion and without regard to their own lives. These grimly anonymous troopers turn the might of their training and weaponry on any opposition to the Empire with utterly ruthless efficiency."

Stormtrooper Officers
"In non-combat situations, stormtrooper officers wear distinctive black tunics and caps. Their insignia - officers discs, rank plaques, and code cylinders- conform to the standards of the Imperial Navy. Code cylinders allow officers access to secure areas and computer systems. All stormtrooper officers are proven soldiers, and in combat they wear body armor like any other trooper. Officers in field units may wear colored shoulder pauldrons as highly-visible rank indicators."

This right here says to me that both clones and humans wear the stormtrooper armor. I think it just depends on the situation, but it says right there that not all stormtroopers are clones.

RooJay
01-20-2003, 12:24 PM
You do have a point there...and since that visual dictionary was produced during the time of the prequels when apparently "they (those who created the cards and have now apparently helped settle the issue...) worked extremly closely with representatives of Lucasfilm, and that George himself signed off on all of the flavor text that was ever used on the cards", and since "That's about as close as canon as you can get, without Lucas having it appear in the movie", that makes it every bit as much official canon as any CCG card!

coy5
02-09-2003, 01:19 AM
I am sure someone else has come across this, but if you listen to the commentary from ep.II G. Lucas himself talks about stormtroopers being clones of -Jango-. He mentions the fact of Jango bumping his head on the Slave I and then how that gets passed on to a scene from ep.V where a stormtrooper bumps his head on the Slave I. I do think that the imperials are a mix of clones and naturally-born people.

mini-rock
02-09-2003, 02:08 AM
Yes, the commentary has been discussed earlier in this thread, and the fact that the OT Visual Dictionary says there are both Imperial Stormtroopers, and Stormtrooper Officers in the mix is good enough for me.:)

LTBasker
02-09-2003, 03:10 AM
If Han's a Clone because the Stormtrooper armor fit him 'perfectly' unlike Luke (unlikely it'd be a Stormtrooper Officer, he was a basic sentry), then that would mean that TIE Pilots are Clones too if Han had to go through Stormtrooper training to reach Pilot status. However, he looks nothing like Jango. (meaning Jango's DNA would likely not even be in him as they couldn't clone from a clone, and it'd be pointless to match Jango's with another host) So if all the Stormtroopers are Clones and look just like Han, then there'd be no connection whatsoever to Jango, meaning the head-bump was a pointless reference to an overhyped goof by a taller extra. (Jango wasn't nearly that tall, and the rest of the Troopers would've either ducked or hit it as well if they were the same height, meaning they're not the same)

Also, what would be the point of using Clones, specifically new Clones? From what Han's shown, if he too is a Clone then the rest of them are very rebellious, looking out for their own interest. No way would they have that big of an army if they were all rebellious like Han, so it'd be even less efficient to use rebellious clones compared to people willing to sign up.

Why would people be willing to sign up for an Empire that's claimed to be hated? Well, look at it this way. Saddam has an army, and yet he's hated. Times that by let's say, a billion considering it's an entire universe, and not just a single planet. Well if they have that type of backing for an army then it's likely they would use them, meaning Clones would be useless if they all ended up imperfect or 'rebellious.'

Considering that, and the fact there are so many troopers of varying heights, it's doubtful that they'd all be Clones of Jango Fett or even have part of his DNA implanted.

Here's another way of showing it'd be more efficient to use regular people:

-Cloning Begins->Training simulators are done from a learning age till they reach appropriate age->Their supplies through the years would be costly->then put into service->they must be kept in line from possibly being rebellious.

Now, let's see...

-Trooper fodder signs up->They bring most of their supplies and are issued standard Imperial supplies->They can buy their own extra supplies->They're trained in simulators and such (definitely not as long as a childhood life-tim)->they're put into service and willingly serve the Empire.

Can you imagine how much of a pain it would be for the Empire to not only have training facilities for their current Troopers and such, but have facilities full off generations of Clone Kids? That would definitely cut costs down by not having a Clone army.

Plus considering the fact the Kaminoans made a limited supply of Jangy clones, it's doubtful a hefty supply could've survived the Clone War. It's likely some youngin's did that, but would Boba Fett really want the possibility of someone kidnapping the Clones and using them as Boba Fett wannabes? He'd likely hunt them down as well to be the last essence of Jango that's alive.


So with that, I have to say that it's more likely they aren't Clones regardless of what Lucas thinks on that topic, because it sounds more like he didn't think things through. Why would he? The saga is ending with Episode III, he's not making anymore after that, why leave mystery? Wether or not they add up correctly, he's putting down answers to equations, because he doesn't just want to leave it hanging. He wants to connect all the dots, even if the result isn't the correct shape.

mini-rock
02-09-2003, 03:55 AM
So, are you saying that when the man who created Star Wars says that Stormtroopers are clones, that he's lying?

LTBasker
02-09-2003, 04:16 AM
From a certain point of view.. Maybe too much was expected from us who figured that a creator would care about it's creation, even with all the money coming from it and such.

I mean just think, if that goof had never been noticed (like it was behind another trooper in which you couldn't see it from the camera angle) then he couldn't of "connected" anything like that because it would've likely been forgotten. It was there, it was hyped, and he used it as an easy explanation rather than actually caring about what he was doing when he said that they were "clones."

Beast
02-09-2003, 04:19 AM
LT, the EU never says that Han was a Stormtrooper. He jointed the Academy, just like Biggs had done. He wasn't training to be a StormTrooper, he was training to be a pilot or an officer. Just like there are Imperial Pilots on the Star Destroyers, that arn't wearing Stormtrooper armor. So far the only ones we know are supposed to be clones, are the actual StormTroopers themselves. :)

Regardless of what anyone but Lucas thinks on the topic, it's his universe. He sets the rules and decides what is cannon and what is not. So whether we like or dislike his decisions, means nothing. They are his decisions, and being the creator of the universe he has every right to state whatever he wishes as total fact. :)

BTW, the StarWars.com databank says that Imperial StormTroopers are not a part of the Imperial Navy or the Imperial Army. But they seperate organization that supports both of those. So thats another point of proof. Because the Army and Navy arn't responsible for the training of them.

Stormtrooper unit organization was separate to that of the Imperial Army and Navy, although this elite unit supported both arms of the Imperial Military. They followed similar organization patterns: squads, platoons, companies, battalions, regiments, and battlegroups (called legions). A stormtrooper battalion had 820 men. The health of stormtroopers was the responsibility of the Naval Biological group.
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-09-2003, 04:39 AM
I know very little about Han and his attempt at being a Tie Pilot. That's where I had gotten confused LT when you has said Han was/or wasn't a clone.

I respect what you post about GL, even though I feel it's a little harsh. I also agree with you JJB, this is GL's baby, and he can do whatever he pleases with it. :)

LTBasker
02-09-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
LT, the EU never says that Han was a Stormtrooper. He jointed the Academy, just like Biggs had done. He wasn't training to be a StormTrooper, he was training to be a pilot or an officer. Just like there are Imperial Pilots on the Star Destroyers, that arn't wearing Stormtrooper armor. So far the only ones we know are supposed to be clones, are the actual StormTroopers themselves. :)

So what about the arguments that the Stormtrooper armor fit Han because he WAS a Stormtrooper. Obviously TIE Pilots would need to go through Stormtrooper training because it'd add to their survival skills if they were downed on a planet. If TIE Pilots are first trained as Stormtroopers but recruited seperately, well then there'd probably be a fair amount of TIE Pilots doubling as Stormtroopers, especially on a Space Station such as the Death Star in case they were needed for a massive attack against it. (Like ROTJ Battle)

If they were Stormtroopers that were promoted above Stormtrooper rank, then that would definitely mean theres a good deal of non-Clones there as well, considering if they have Clones for basic Stormtroopers then why even go through the trouble of recruiting people for jobs such as TIE Pilots, especially for the basic TIE Fighter.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Regardless of what anyone but Lucas thinks on the topic, it's his universe. He sets the rules and decides what is cannon and what is not. So whether we like or dislike his decisions, means nothing. They are his decisions, and being the creator of the universe he has every right to state whatever he wishes as total fact. :)

So.. if he said that Luke and Leia got married after ROTJ, you'd accept that? I doubt it, cause that would be pretty screwed up. That's pretty much the same way I feel about the Stormtrooper issue, if he thinks he can just say they're Clones well that's screwed up. You can tell he just pulled that one outta there.

As was pointed out in my other post, Clones are inefficient compared to people who willingly recruit. From what has canonly been said about the Empire, and how they look for the easiest ways to do things regarding their armies, I'd say they would look for the most efficient and cheap way to create an army. I highly doubt any Officer would find it efficient waiting around for some little kid to grow up into a soldier when theres people out there who would willingly join, and are likely already killing-machines.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
BTW, the StarWars.com databank says that Imperial StormTroopers are not a part of the Imperial Navy or the Imperial Army. But they seperate organization that supports both of those. So thats another point of proof. Because the Army and Navy arn't responsible for the training of them.

The StarWars.com databank also has several EU references, they're not a very canon resource as they have too many EU ties in there.



Overall I know this is Lucas' creation, but when he created it he didn't expect it to be successful, so it was actually his baby. Now that he's making the prequels to forever wrap it up, he doesn't care how it's done as long as he gets money from it. I'm not saying it's wrong for him to expect money from something such as this, but now it seems to be all that is controlling Star Wars. Not the story, not the mystery, not the excitement, just the franchising.

So basically.. the original trilogy is more of his baby, and the prequel trilogy is more of his sugar mama. ;)

RooJay
02-10-2003, 02:42 PM
I have a couple more thoughts on this discussion:

- First, in regards to this quote:
Originally posted by LTBasker
So what about the arguments that the Stormtrooper armor fit Han because he WAS a Stormtrooper. Obviously TIE Pilots would need to go through Stormtrooper training because it'd add to their survival skills if they were downed on a planet. If TIE Pilots are first trained as Stormtroopers but recruited seperately, well then there'd probably be a fair amount of TIE Pilots doubling as Stormtroopers, especially on a Space Station such as the Death Star in case they were needed for a massive attack against it. (Like ROTJ Battle) It could be argued that TIE Pilots would need only to go through TIE Pilot survival training - reaL world Air Force Pilots don't have to go through Army Infantry training. They have their own training programs for ground warfare and survival. Likewise, you don't get Navy Pilots "doubling" as rank and file sailors on an aircraft carrier, even when it's under massive attack. They never even wear similar uniforms, in spite of the fact that they are part of the same military branch; which it has been said is not the case with Imperial Pilots and Stormtroopers.

- Anybody who's read any of my previous posts on this and similar subjects would be able to tell you that I would be among the first to point out that this is George's baby, and he could do anything he wants with it. However, we have known George to say things in the past that he eventually decides to alter in some way or another. He's human, and we all do that sort of thing from time to time. He masy say a lot of things in the heat of the moment that he may not have really thought through, and by the time Episode 3 hits theaters a lot might change as Mr. Lucas continues to flesh his story out. I might also point out that, according to his own words, if it doesn't happen in the films, then it isn't canon. Technically a brief statement made while recording the DVD commentary isn't something that happens "in the films".

Also...a quick question to anyone who knows - where exactly was it first established that Han Solo had gone to the Imperial Academy, and what did that source name as his course of training and eventual posting in the Imperial Navy? The reason I ask is due to the fact that I had always assumed Han went through officers training and eventually became a regular Imperial officer. Then Dark Horse comics (in the Chewbacca miniseries) published the story that established Han as a TIE Pilot. I had always assumed he had been a regular grey or black suited Imperial Officer, or perhaps a Star Destroyer pilot, and never once imagined him in a TIE Pilot uniform until that comic came out. Can anyone help me verify?

El Chuxter
02-10-2003, 03:11 PM
I know Han's a TIE Pilot in one of the stories from the Chewbacca comic series. He may have mentioned it in the Han Solo trilogy as well, but I can't recall for sure.

Emperors_Hand_2211
02-26-2003, 03:03 AM
Wow this thread is still going.
I think my standpoint was established pretty early on, like page 4 or something.
LT makes the perfect point though. GL universe it may be, and for the most part I'll accept what he says, but not when it clearly contradicts what has gone before. If GL has put forward two view points, one in which stormtroopers are clones, and one in which they are not (which they clearly are not in the OT) then I feel perfectly OK picking the one I am happiest with.

RooJay
02-28-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
I have a couple more thoughts on this discussion:

- First, in regards to this quote: It could be argued that TIE Pilots would need only to go through TIE Pilot survival training - reaL world Air Force Pilots don't have to go through Army Infantry training. They have their own training programs for ground warfare and survival. Likewise, you don't get Navy Pilots "doubling" as rank and file sailors on an aircraft carrier, even when it's under massive attack. They never even wear similar uniforms, in spite of the fact that they are part of the same military branch; which it has been said is not the case with Imperial Pilots and Stormtroopers.

- Anybody who's read any of my previous posts on this and similar subjects would be able to tell you that I would be among the first to point out that this is George's baby, and he could do anything he wants with it. However, we have known George to say things in the past that he eventually decides to alter in some way or another. He's human, and we all do that sort of thing from time to time. He masy say a lot of things in the heat of the moment that he may not have really thought through, and by the time Episode 3 hits theaters a lot might change as Mr. Lucas continues to flesh his story out. I might also point out that, according to his own words, if it doesn't happen in the films, then it isn't canon. Technically a brief statement made while recording the DVD commentary isn't something that happens "in the films".

Also...a quick question to anyone who knows - where exactly was it first established that Han Solo had gone to the Imperial Academy, and what did that source name as his course of training and eventual posting in the Imperial Navy? The reason I ask is due to the fact that I had always assumed Han went through officers training and eventually became a regular Imperial officer. Then Dark Horse comics (in the Chewbacca miniseries) published the story that established Han as a TIE Pilot. I had always assumed he had been a regular grey or black suited Imperial Officer, or perhaps a Star Destroyer pilot, and never once imagined him in a TIE Pilot uniform until that comic came out. Can anyone help me verify?

So nobody knows?

Rogue II
03-01-2003, 06:46 AM
In the Han Solo Trilogy by AC Crispin, it says he went to the Imperial Academy. He only served for a couple years before he freed Chewbacca and quit. I know it mentions him flying a shuttle, but it don't recall anything about him being a TIE Pilot. I know he wasn't a TIE Pilot when he liberated Chewbacca.

RooJay
03-02-2003, 02:11 AM
Thanks again Rogue II! When I saw Han as a TIE pilot in the Dark Horse comic, I thought it seemed a bit off base.

Beast
03-02-2003, 02:19 AM
RooJay, I saw somthing the other day from one of the people from WOTC that work with Lucasfilm for the text on the cards. They were told that only the Stormtroopers/SandTroopers/SnowTroopers/ScoutTroopers etc. are all clones. That they were told point blank that TIE Pilots were not. They did say that they didn't get an answer about the Death Star Gunners, but I don't think they would be clones either. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

RooJay
03-03-2003, 12:44 PM
Thanks JJB, but my question was actually about where if, anywhere, it was stated that Han had ever been a TIE pilot rather than the Imperial Officer type I had always believed him to be. I know that, not really having anything to do with the clone debate, it was a bit off topic, but it was just something that sprung to mind.
As far as clones are concerned, regardless of what anyone from WOTC was told - I will wait until it Episode 3 before choosing to believe that all Stormtroopers are clones. Like Lucas says - if it ain't in the movies, it ain't necessarily the truth. Also, as I have stated on numerous occasions, I think it is far to early to make a judgement on this issue as Lucas has often mentioned things during the creative process that he ends up completely altering by the time the film is released.

LTBasker
03-03-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
RooJay, I saw somthing the other day from one of the people from WOTC that work with Lucasfilm for the text on the cards. They were told that only the Stormtroopers/SandTroopers/SnowTroopers/ScoutTroopers etc. are all clones. That they were told point blank that TIE Pilots were not. They did say that they didn't get an answer about the Death Star Gunners, but I don't think they would be clones either. :)


Scout Troopers, Sandtroopers and Stormtroopers had different voices. They sound similiar through scrambling of their comm-units but you can tell they definitely had different tones. Also, you can tell that Scout Troopers act much differently. The Clones in AOTC were very "elite" considering they were never really in a battle of that scale till then, and the Scout Trooper that crashed into the stump after looking back from seeing Leia fall would've definitely known to turn and not just go straight into it.

This would mean, the Scout Trooper was dumber than dirt, whereas the AOTC Clones were more intelligent than that.

Or was he woozy over a Jango head-bang "connection" prior to the scene and therefore couldn't figure anything out? ;)


How can a person from WOTC be trusted? Not only are they owned by Hasbro, but they killed the Fan Club and the Insider.

PoggleTheGreater
03-05-2003, 04:41 AM
Lucas doesn't always refer to his characters by their exact names in interviews. Maybe on the commentary on the AOTC DVD when he said "stormtroopers", he meant the stormtroopers, or clonetroopers, in the prequels, and not the stormtroopers from the classic trilogy.

I still don't believe all the stormtroopers are clones.

RooJay
03-06-2003, 12:29 PM
That was my first thought as well. Just because he says "stormtroopers" on the DVD commentary, doesn't necessarily mean "classic trilogy stormtroopers" and not "the guys I'm using right now - clonetroopers". Aside from the fact that he has yet to address the issue in film (as would be the requirement according to him for what is considered canon), he has been known on several occasions to use the wrong names, and often less specific names when referring to his own characters in the past; Clonetroopers certainly fit the bill as what would be described as "stormtroopers" even when using the real world reference of the term. Even police SWAT officers can be referred to as stormtroopers - and I gather very few of them ever wear white plastic armor.
As I said before - the case is still open, and in all probability - we'll likely end up having to each decide the issue for ourselves.

Rogue II
03-06-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
That was my first thought as well. Just because he says "stormtroopers" on the DVD commentary, doesn't necessarily mean "classic trilogy stormtroopers" and not "the guys I'm using right now - clonetroopers". Aside from the fact that he has yet to address the issue in film (as would be the requirement according to him for what is considered canon), he has been known on several occasions to use the wrong names, and often less specific names when referring to his own characters in the past; Clonetroopers certainly fit the bill as what would be described as "stormtroopers" even when using the real world reference of the term. Even police SWAT officers can be referred to as stormtroopers - and I gather very few of them ever wear white plastic armor.
As I said before - the case is still open, and in all probability - we'll likely end up having to each decide the issue for ourselves.

1. Lucas does mean the Stormtroopers in the Classic Trilogy. He specifically mentioned the Stormtrooper bumping his head on the door in ANH - Just like Jango did while getting into Slave I.

2. The DVD commentary is in the film...therefore it is cannon...from "certain point of view" :D ;)

stillakid
03-06-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II
1. Lucas does mean the Stormtroopers in the Classic Trilogy. He specifically mentioned the Stormtrooper bumping his head on the door in ANH - Just like Jango did while getting into Slave I.


So every "mistake" that was made on set back in 1976 now has a real "story" reason for it happening? That's the rationale?

So, what, will we see R5-D4 in Episode III have magical space/time warping powers that allow him to jump from place to place in the space of a nanosecond or less? :rolleyes:

And the same for that guy in the war room on Yavin? The one with the handlebar mustache? That guy bounces from one side of Leia to the other in the space of seconds. Apparently there's more going on in the Star Wars Universe than just mere piddly Force powers.


Please, somebody, anybody, save George from himself before it's too late.

2-1B
03-06-2003, 03:50 PM
I still don't see Jango bumping his head on Slave I, that sound is not of a "thud" but more of a creak (I assumed from the door closing). I've paused and zoomed on that scene, and it looks like there is space between his head and the door.

However, since the ship is CGI perhaps it was INTENDED for his head to hit . . . but technically speaking I think they failed then because it doesn't look that way to me.


stillakid
The one with the handlebar mustache?

What the hell are you talking about? I don't recall Rollie Fingers being in A New Hope ! :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

stillakid
03-06-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
What the hell are you talking about? I don't recall Rollie Fingers being in A New Hope ! :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

I guess it's more like Colonel Mustard...

2-1B
03-06-2003, 04:18 PM
Well, if we add gray hair I think we're on to something! :D