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scruffziller
10-28-2002, 03:31 PM
I wonder how much of EPS 3 is going to be GL's own personal wants and how much he will put in "because the fan's want to see it." Like Vader emerging. I have talked to a number of fans around my area that feel that if Vader is placed in the film too early that it wouldn't be a true EPS 3. Somewhat like having EPS 2 taking place during the heat of the CLONE WARS. Each episode takes place over just a few days so the only way an episode fits into the big screen is one LARGE major event and its resolution takes place at the end.

EPS 4- Destruction of Death Star 1
EPS 5- Rebel Alliance escapes almost near complete destruction.
EPS 6- Destruction of Death Star 2

EPS 1- Trade Federation defeated or (from the perspective of the OT) Palpitine elected Chancelor.:evil: :D (AKA) Sidious' first phase of his ultimate plan.

EPS 2- Beginning of the Clone Wars/Sidious' second phase of his ultimate plan.
EPS 3- (Hopefully with the pattern of the previous 5) the birth of Vader and the Empire.

Beast
10-28-2002, 04:00 PM
Actually, Empire Strikes Back is more then a few days time. It's estimated to be around 6 weeks atleast, possible much more. Since Luke spent quite a lot of time training with Yoda that wasn't shown. Most people think it's only a couple days, because there isn't an obvious sign of how much time passes during the film. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
10-28-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Actually, Empire Strikes Back is more then a few days time. It's estimated to be around 6 weeks atleast, possible much more. Since Luke spent quite a lot of time training with Yoda that wasn't shown. Most people think it's only a couple days, because there isn't an obvious sign of how much time passes during the film. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

So Han, Chewie, and Leia hid in the asteroid field for appox. 6 weeks? :confused: It did seem the Empire had been looking for them for a day or 2, but it's hard to imagine them being there for more than a week.

Patient Zero
10-28-2002, 04:28 PM
Remember that they did not have lightspeed and the trip to Bespin took some time.

Beast
10-28-2002, 04:31 PM
Yep, the whole asteroid chase and hide, then the trip to Bespin without lightspeed took up some time. I wish that they would answer exactly how much on the official site. I've never seen them even address the question. Hopefully Lucas will say somthing in the ESB audio commentary, when the OT is finally released on DVD. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Wolfwood319
10-28-2002, 04:32 PM
Yeah, you got to remember that Han didn't have lightspeed. And Fett had enough time to follow Han, find out where he was going, inform Vader, have enough time for Vader and a sqaudron of troops, TIEs etc get to Bespin, talk to Lando, etc...

A lot goes on in ESB that we don't see.

mini-rock
10-28-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Remember that they did not have lightspeed and the trip to Bespin took some time.

Yup, your right, didn't think about that. :crazed: When Lando says "They arrived just before you did" made me think that the Empire would have gotten there within a few hours, but maybe they waited till they knew for sure that was where the Falcon was going before heading there themselves. When the Falcon was a half a day away then the Empire went?

Tycho
10-28-2002, 05:38 PM
This is to get back on topic:

I hope that Hayden getting into the Vader suit - his scarred face apparent - WILL NEVER BE SHOWN!

See the Dooku: Sith or Jedi ally thread for the reasons. Everyone in this thread is pretty much the same group in the other one.

Wolfwood319
10-28-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

I hope that Hayden getting into the Vader suit - his scarred face apparent - WILL NEVER BE SHOWN!


I think that if it isn't shown, it would defeat the purpose of why the prequels were made to begin with.

mini-rock
10-29-2002, 12:57 AM
I really hope Anakin is not shown getting into the Vader costume. It would totally ruin the surprise in EPV.

Tycho
10-29-2002, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319


I think that if it isn't shown, it would defeat the purpose of why the prequels were made to begin with.

The prequels were made to complete the 12 hour epic.

As a major part of it, they are meant to show Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

From that WE ARE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO GATHER that these are the reasons he becomes Darth Vader - even if the inexperienced viewer seeing them in order - is led to believe Anakin is killed shortly after turning himself over to the Dark Side.

He doesn't have to be in black leather to be on the Dark Side. He just has to be himself, as a Jedi, given over to rage and bent on killing his own Master.

We're being shown why. Then the focus goes on to Obi-Wan for a while, and how he survives, and how he hides the baby Luke from this Darth Vader character that seems relentless on stalking down the last traces of Padme Amidala.

All in all, if you pause the 12-hour movie in the 10th hour after the Bespin revelation scene, everything should click and you know why and how Vader came to exist and what his obsession with Luke really means to him.

2-1B
10-29-2002, 02:56 AM
I don't really care if they do or don't show Hayden as Vader, but I'm surprised that hope still exists in some of you that they might not show it.

Everything I've been hearing/reading from George over the past several years leads me to believe that it will be shown.

Beast
10-29-2002, 03:06 AM
Exactly Caesar, I don't really know how he can't show what people have been wanting to see. It doesn't hurt the revelation in ESB at all, because Luke doesn't know the truth. Everything that Lucas has said up to this point, sounds like we'll see atleast some closure in how Anakin became Darth Vader. Besides, this peice of Fan Art would look cool realised even partially on screen. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
10-29-2002, 03:12 AM
WOW! I totally got goose bumps from that pic.

I think it will be cool if Vader is shown, but I still feel the Anakin being Vader secret should remain until EPV. I know there have been reports that Lucas has said Vader WILL be in the last 5 minutes of the film, but I hope he can do it without revealing Vader being Anakin.:)

2-1B
10-29-2002, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Exactly Caesar, I don't really know how he can't show what people have been wanting to see. It doesn't hurt the revelation in ESB at all, because Luke doesn't know the truth. Everything that Lucas has said up to this point, sounds like we'll see atleast some closure in how Anakin became Darth Vader.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying they should show it, and I disagree with you in that I can see how they could do the film without showing it. And do it quite well.

I certainly see the value in debating the merits of one route over the other, but I'm personally under the presumption that it WILL be shown, regardless of whether it's best for the film to do so.

Beast
10-29-2002, 03:32 AM
Yes, but no matter how it's done, it wouldn't work perfectly with what Ben tells Luke in ANH. There can't be a pupil named Darth Vader that turns to evil and helps the empire hunt down the jedi knights. There is no Darth Vader to betray and murder Luke's father.

Simply because Luke's Daddy is Darth Vader. Either way it turns Obi-Wan into a huge liar in ANH. Better that he's lieing to protect Luke from the past that everyone but Luke will know about. Then just some crazy lie that doesn't fit with the established facts at all. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

scruffziller
10-29-2002, 07:22 AM
Dang JAR JAR where did you get that pic!!! Obviously a fabrication but a dang good one. But to summarize my point seeing Vader right at the end would be perfect.

evenflow
10-29-2002, 07:58 AM
That is an awesome pic. Very cool.

Rogue II
10-29-2002, 09:21 AM
Just to make sure, James Earl Jones will do a voice in Episode 3 right? That means we will see Vader, or at least an early version of him(assuming his armor evolves in the years between Ep3 and 4)?

It doesn't matter to me if we see Anakin put on the Vader armor. We know he becomes Vader, anyway.

Now, if GL wants to throw some confusion in there, Ob-Wan would have to take on another pupil(it would help if he was very egotistical), who helps him duel Anakin (2 Jedi vs. 1 Sith). The pupil and Anakin would fall towards the lava. One would be rescued, the other would die. We would be left wondering if was Anakin or the pupil who became Darth Vader. Yeah, it's a long shot.

Beast
10-29-2002, 10:24 AM
I found the picture posted on a DVD website a week or so ago. Not sure where they got it from, and I can't find the thread where it was posted now. I agree, I love that piece of artwork.

James Earl Jones and Lucas himself, have both said that J.E.J would be needed to do the voice for the last 5 minutes or so of the movie. I hope they can get the effect of his voice to work properly this time.

When J.E.J did that "Inform my Star Destroyer, to prepare for my arrival" line for the ESB S.E., it didn't match well with the rest of Vader's dialogue. Lemme add that to the list of changes needed for the DVD Archival Editions. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
10-29-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II


Now, if GL wants to throw some confusion in there, Ob-Wan would have to take on another pupil(it would help if he was very egotistical), who helps him duel Anakin (2 Jedi vs. 1 Sith). The pupil and Anakin would fall towards the lava. One would be rescued, the other would die. We would be left wondering if was Anakin or the pupil who became Darth Vader. Yeah, it's a long shot.

Exactly:

1) Anakin got married - he is kicked out or voluntarily quits from the Jedi Order within weeks following the Battle of Geonosis.

2) At age 13, young learners are assigned as Padawans to Masters. Obi-Wan Kenobi is now available and assigned apprentice # 2.

3) Apprentice # 2 knows all about how Anakin WAS Obi-Wan's apprentice.

He knows how Anakin was supposed to be this great Chosen One.

He knows how Obi-Wan cherrishes Anakin because of his pledge to Qui-Gon and the 3 that had a connection there dating back to the Battle of Naboo.

He also knows that Anakin broke all the rules as a Jedi, got away with it, until finally marrying was taking it too far.

But he knows Obi-Wan still loves Anakin more than any new padawan could develop a bond with the hurt Jedi Master.

Anakin had 10 years with Obi-Wan Kenobi. What's that to the short time Padawan # 2 has had?

Padawan # 2 is jealous of Anakin and has an urging to hate him.

Hate leads to suffering....

They know and see each other. Anakin is like a Jedi-advisor to Chancellor Palpatine, a Naboo native, who hails from the same planet as Padme Amidala-Skywalker, Anakin's wife - still the Senator.

Padawan #2 is the "brother" Anakin didn't want that took his "father" away from him. Anakin doesn't like Padawan # 2.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 years have passed. The opening title of Episode 3 has scrolled up. After an uncomfortable meeting in the Chancellor's office where Anakin and Padawan # 2's dislike for one another is apparent, to show that he's just as good of team with Obi-Wan, Padawan #2 volunteers himself and Obi-Wan to go on a dangerous and desperate mission to destroy the Separatists' leadership - or something dangerous. Bail Organa sanctions the mission.

They leave and in a great battle with Clones led by General Obi-Wan Kenobi, Count Dooku is located. Padawan # 2 is lost, MISSING IN ACTION. Obi-Wan has a stronger Force-bond with Anakin than he does with his new Padawan. Showing his ability as a Starfighter pilot, Anakin breaks the Separatists' blockade and makes it through with an attack squad to find Obi-Wan.

Anakin finds Obi-Wan confronting Dooku.

Meanwhile, Palpatine, the 9-month-pregnant Padme, JarJar, and Bail Organa are attacked. It is a staged attack that captures the 3 Loyalists and makes it look like they were killed. Palpatine with his Royal Guards escape and send a distress call to Anakin. This is all part of Palpatine's game.

Anakin must return and find out what's become of Padme and his unborn child. His urgency breaks his control and he unleashes with all his anger and power onto Dooku and delivers a mortal blow. Startled, he flees to find Padme.

Dooku, dying, reveals to Obi-Wan that he'd been assigned to infiltrate the Sith without the Council's permission. Only Mace Windu knows of his mission - and that Palpatine is the Dark Lord of the Sith. Dooku dies.

Anakin returns to Palpatine, discovering that when he went to save Obi-Wan, he'd betrayed the protection he offered Padme and now she's "dead" along with his child. Obi-Wan cost him his mother once, and now he cost him his wife and child. "Because he was jealous of course!" Anakin's anger is enraged when he reports to Palpatine that Dooku was killed. Palpatine's like "oh - no! I just now learned that he was your father! Everything was just revealed to me!"

Now Anakin's failure is complete: he let his mother die, he let his wife and child die, and he betrayed and murdered his own father!

Palpatine offers him condolences when Obi-Wan shows up and explains that Palpatine is the Dark Lord of the Sith and Obi-Wan now has to kill him. "How convenient for you," Anakin thinks. "You Bastard!" He won't let Obi-Wan kill his last friend and mentor - and it's treason to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor! The Jedi are supposed to protect him!

Palpatine reveals that he is the Dark Lord of the Sith but he told Anakin the truth - and that the Jedi were still guilty of trying to take over the galaxy. But Dooku, his father, knew this and joined the Sith because he knew that one way or the other, the Republic would fall - ruled by the treacherous Jedi, or the Sith who would impose Order. That is why Dooku followed Sidious - to save lives and stop the confusion and war. Syfo-Dyas ordered the Clones and sowed the Separatists, not Dooku. The Count merely learned the truth and killed Sifo-Dyas so he could replace him in this plot, but he sought out the Sith to help him save lives and restore iron control for the security of the galaxy. Now Anakin coudl take up his father's noble cause - and slay his master and take his father's place at Palpatine's side!

Obi-Wan and Anakin fight a viscious battle and Obi-Wan wins but must flee as Palpatine's Royal Guards come in numbers to get in on the action and the Chancellor declares the Jedi traitors and points to video evidence of Obi-Wan trying to assasinate him and killing his advisor, Anakin Skywalker!

Obi-Wan hides himself in the Force so that Palpatine cannot sense him and direct his guards to slay the Jedi traitor!

Almost mortally wounded, Anakin has fallen near a molten smelting core in Coruscant's industrial area (or the planet's bowels). Worried that he's failed his Master, Padawan # 2 shows up too late to help Obi-Wan. Convinced that it's finished for the worse, the now 17 year old Padawan # 2 finally makes his move to finish off Anakin Skywalker - revenge for his Master Kenobi! But Darth Sidious arrives to intervene. He says that yes, the Dark Side does indeed have a new ally....he will show Padawan # 2 EXACTLY what he means!

"Now the Jedi WILL die!"

Off-screen Padawan # 2 dies under a fatal barrage of Darth Sidious' Force lightning!

Now when Vader appears, you're not sure WHICH one of Obi-Wan's former students with Dark Side tendancies could Vader actually be. "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil...." All the Sith have different names: Darth Sidious is also Palpatine, Darth Tyranus is also Dooku, Darth Maul was also (I forgot, but his birth name's been revealed). Luke wouldn't know who Padawan # 2 is, but chances are he'd HAVE TO know who Darth Vader was if he was going to be trained to deal with him (even before Ben actually planned to finally reveal to him that his father was still alive - and actually Darth Vader).

Anyway, Darth Vader makes his appearance later in the Episode 3 movie. He is referred to as Palpatine's "new apprentice." His first desire is to finish all who stand in his way. He has to find the Senator and make certain she is dead.

This hasn't changed since Anakin first started that mission when he heard something had happened to his wife. He (as Vader) is going to try and find her, alive, if he can - or learn who killed them and punish them with his wrath. Darth Vader said "I must make certain that she is dead." This is NOT the same thing as saying [i] I must KILL HER to make certain she is dead

The rest of the movie plays kind of like ESB - a stalker movie, with Padme and the twins on Dagobah being a for-certain element. Vader kills some Jedi that try to run interference for her - probably Plo Koon and Ki-Adi Mundi. Mace will die by Boba Fett.

Obi-Wan and Yoda have to live of course. Obi-Wan might meet Vader, but they won't fight. He'll let him live.

"Come with me."

"It is too late for me my friend. Go and do NOT come back! - Ever!"

Beast
10-29-2002, 06:14 PM
Tycho, the theroy is sound. But your forgetting the huge fact that Lucas has said that the entire saga is about Anakin Skywalker and his children. Trying to cheat the fans out of somthing that they have wanted to know for ages, exactly how Anakin fell, and what the events were that drove him to that fall, is crazy.

Episode 1 - The Life of Anakin Skywalker
Episode 2 - The Rise of Anakin Skywalker
Episode 3 - The Fall of Anakin Skywalker
Episode 4 - The Story of Anakin Skywalker's Son
Episode 5 - The Truth Revelaed to Anakin's Son
Episode 6 - The Redemption of Anakin Skywalker

For those that say it ruins the events of ESB, knowing that Anakin is Vader, nonsense. You still feel the full effect, because you knew the truth when Ben lies to Luke. Sure the effect is altered, so that you feel it from Luke instead of from yourself. But that's a typical storytelling technic. To give the audience knowledge that is withheld from the charecters. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
10-29-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
......trying to cheat the fans out of learning exactly how Anakin fell, and what the events were that drove him to that fall, is crazy.



But my theory just told you:

1) The Jedi prevented him from saving his mother (Obi-Wan most directly).

2) The Jedi forbid him to marry or have children and punished him for doing so (most likely because they were jealous- in Anakin's mind)

3) The same jealous Jedi (Obi-Wan directly) distracted him from protecting Padme and his unborn child, resulting in their death (he supposes since he believes Palpatine).

4) The Jedi Council, or Mace and Yoda, (possibly Obi-Wan) knew that Count Dooku was his real father, yet they never told him the truth and allowed him to murder the Count - his own father!

5) Dooku was trying to stop Jedi like Syfo-Dyas from scheming and plotting to use a Clone Army to enforce their own power. (In the version Anakin believes). Anakin basically thwarted all the work his father had done to prevent the Jedi attempt to grab power, when he made his lethal mistake and stopped Dooku cold.

6) In his direct actions, Obi-Wan proves himself an assasin who will victimize the Republic's own Supreme Chancellor in the highest act of treason, and he's willing to kill his own former padawan, the boy that's like a son to him, in order to fulfill his mission of murder. He is going to take away Anakin's very last friend he has left!


ALL THIS MAKES ANAKIN VERY ANGRY AND HE VICIOUSLY FIGHTS WITH ALL THAT HOSTILITY AND ATTEMPTS TO KILL OBI-WAN!

Killing the Tusken Raiders was of the Dark Side.

Killing Dooku was of the Dark Side.

Killing (or attempting to kill) Obi-Wan is of the Dark Side.

3 marks and he's in there!

That he allied himself to Palpatine because of "the truth" as he sees it, and because he's more machine than man now, and dependant on the Dark Side for the strength from which he draws his power, the entire transition is complete.

The armor is superficial to the reasons and the turning. It's just a life-support system that he now requires. There is no Sith ceremony and he doesn't get a box of Crackerjacks. The name, Vader, might possibly be incidental and just something to Anakin's or Palpatine's tastes, or it may have historical significance in their fictional galaxy. It's rather complicated to add into the movie.

The final issue you are talking about has only to do with whether we will see him actually put on the armor - or who makes it.

I'm not sure on that. However, I think there are elements from at least a couple of his former enemies:

Wat Tambler (Techno Union's) vocabulator - makes the deep synthetic voice.

Plo Koons eye protectors and breath mask - possibly added ferocity to the life-support system because Anakin was always intimidated by the Jedi Council, and Plo Koon was a prominent member.

I don't know that this is so important to be shown in light of reasons # 1 - 6 and why Annie gets angry. That is why he goes to the Dark Side. Some people still don't get it.

Jedi Clint
10-29-2002, 11:08 PM
It is really a matter of confirmation. Should someone call Anakin "Vader" or vise versa? Should we see Anakin being fitted with Vader's armor? I say no. Retain or increase the mystery surrounding Vader's character for the intended audience. It isn't nearly as complicated as this discussion makes it out to be.

stillakid
10-29-2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Just to be clear, I'm not saying they should show it, and I disagree with you in that I can see how they could do the film without showing it. And do it quite well.

I certainly see the value in debating the merits of one route over the other, but I'm personally under the presumption that it WILL be shown, regardless of whether it's best for the film to do so.


If I could peek in and offer my humble 2 cents :sur: , I'd like to agree completely with the above statement. There's not a whole lot to add to it, except as confirmation, Rogue II points out, JEJ is slated to provide some amount of voice work, if I'm not mistaken. So we could presume to expect at the very very least an off-screen voice-over and at the most some kind of Hayden-in-the-costume imagery.

The should it be done and why or why not is a whole other debate which rests entirely on each individual's point-of-view of what this saga is about and how each episode advances and/or detracts from the story, as the case may be. :)

As for the opening question:
How much will be compromised for the fan's tastes.

I wonder how much of EPS 3 is going to be GL's own personal wants and how much he will put in "because the fan's want to see it." As evidenced by Mr. Lucas's own statements regarding the reason he chose Jango Fett to be included in the Prequels, George is making choices just like the one implied in the question. Whether the Vader issue is a "fan choice" is something else, I feel. I personally don't know anybody at all that has expressed the desire to see the "creation of Vader." (In fact, I've personally heard more of the opposite, that seeing such a sequence would be detrimental.) Perhaps there is a movement that I'm not aware of which is compelling Lucas to do such a thing. But if there isn't, then his reasoning is entirely different and subject to speculation. Speculation, colored by one's individual point-of-view concerning the saga, it's past, it's present state, and what the future of it should be.

Chewtobacco
10-30-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
That he allied himself to Palpatine because of "the truth" as he sees it, and because he's more machine than man now, and dependant on the Dark Side for the strength from which he draws his power, the entire transition is complete.

While it's probable that Anakin will mostly side with Sideous (ultimately) because Sideous saves his life, there is another reason why Anakin likes him. Anakin will side with Palpy because he believes in an effective and non-beaurocratic government. He doesn't like politicians that are corrupt, he likes politicians that "get the job done" by any means necessary. That's Palpatine to the "T". If dictatorship gets the job done, then it makes sense to him.

The Overlord Returns
11-01-2002, 09:53 AM
THe simple fact of the matter is in watching these films 1 through 6, the minute luke says his last name, you're going to know whose kid he is. It's unavoidable.

The best scenario I can see is having anakin at near death, and the empires surgeons working to save him. Perhaps his life signs even go out. Then, in the final 10 minutes or so....Vader appears.

It would only take 1 clever bit of dialogue from vader to clue kenobi in on who he is during a final confrontation....

Tycho
11-01-2002, 10:11 AM
It's not a question of hiding Luke's identity. But several things:

1) They actually can - not that it makes a lot of difference, but:

a) they refer to the baby in Episode 3 as "the baby, the infant, your son, etc." and not by the name "Luke" at all.

b) You know who Luke is for sure (if you haven't guessed YET...if watching them all in order for your very first time for ANY of the movies, when Luke says, "I'm Luke SKYWALKER. I'm here to rescue you!" Then audiences are given 'a new hope' - and the tempo of the movie ANH, picks up too - going more upbeat as the heroes finally start to kick butt on the Death Star.

c) I just thought about something else: Vader, letting Obi-Wan go, KNOWS Obi-Wan has his son! Vader realizes what he's become and ALSO wants to protect his son from Obi-Wan. Yes, the Jedi Master hides him from his father - but not without his father's knowledge that his son survived. Yes, he trusts Obi-Wan to raise him right and keep him out of the way - and "not come back." When Obi-Wan and Luke do come back, Vader is intrigued and then obsessed with finding his son - especially since he's tangled up with the Rebel Alliance and Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

"To protect you both from THE EMPEROR, you were hidden from your father when you were born."

That doesn't mean Vader doesn't KNOW there was a live birth of a son! It might even mean he ASKED Obi-Wan to hide Luke from him, because he wanted his son to be safe from the politics of the time, once he realized who the Emperor was, and what he'd become.

This might explain why Vader is not at all surprised Obi-Wan is still alive - and exactly how Obi-Wan escaped the Great Purge.

Obviously Vader did not know there were twins.

This still meshes with my story outline, and explains one more shocker at the end of the movie:

Vader lets Obi-Wan live to raise his son, someplace secret from even him, far away from the "bright center of the universe."

Obi-Wan knows Palpatine wouldn't go out to Tatooine, and Vader's not likely to return there himself. Plus he's giving Luke the life he MIGHT have had, were Anakin to have never left Tatooine and still eventually had a son.

This seems to make logical sense to me - and it still is a mild shocker, too.

Rogue II
11-01-2002, 10:16 AM
After Vader makes his first appearance in Episode 3, he could say something like "Anakin Skywalker is dead/gone/no more."

...which is the truth, from a certain point of view.;)


I know, it sounds like the Monty Python Parrot Sketch.

The Overlord Returns
11-01-2002, 11:06 AM
Vader should mention to Obi wan how he (obi) has failed Qui Gonn Jin. This would clue obi wan in to who Vader is quite well.

In addition: This would also add nice background to his comments to luke in rotj about obi wans failure being complete....

stillakid
11-01-2002, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
THe simple fact of the matter is in watching these films 1 through 6, the minute luke says his last name, you're going to know whose kid he is. It's unavoidable.



Not really...if and only if we do not see Vader appear in Episode III. Why not you ask? :)

Clearly, from what we think we know, Anakin is severely hurt, presumably in a fight with Obi Wan. Sometime after that event, Anakin is put into the Vader suit.

We know we have to see the fight. We have to see Anakin get hurt.

We do not have to see him get up.

If, and only if, George directs this scene so that it appears to the audience that Anakin is dead or very very close to dying, and that's the last we see of his face until Return of the Jedi, then viewing the movies in episode order would work even if George drops in some gratuitous scene with Vader in Epidode III as the Thread Question suggests. The "secret" (from the audience, not necessarily from any characters in the film) can then be maintained for future generations of filmgoers who don't know.

Of course it would work far far better if no imagery or suggestion of Vader is made until ANH, but that seems very unlikely based on the reports we've heard to date.

And, in my own personal opinion, from what I've seen him do with the Prequels so far, I fully and entirely expect to see some kind of lame montage sequence or something gratuitously showing Anakin getting the mask put on. Interesting image? Yes, of course! Necessary for the film? No, and detrimental to boot. But, that's my own opinion. :)

Rogue II
11-01-2002, 12:24 PM
I know everyone is concerned on if and how Episode 3 will work with the "I am your father" line in ESB. But what about keeping Leia's identity a secret until Luke revels it in ROTJ? If we see baby Leia handed off to Bail Organa of Alderaan, we will know who she is in ANH and the big suprise in ROTJ will also be ruined.

The Overlord Returns
11-01-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II
I know everyone is concerned on if and how Episode 3 will work with the "I am your father" line in ESB. But what about keeping Leia's identity a secret until Luke revels it in ROTJ? If we see baby Leia handed off to Bail Organa of Alderaan, we will know who she is in ANH and the big suprise in ROTJ will also be ruined.

Easy. Never show it. There is no need to.

You have amidala giving birth to Luke first. The boy is taken, and we never see amidala again. Remember, there can be minutes....even hours between twins births.

Perhaps there is a quick shot at the end of the movie showing organa and padme with another little bundle.?

Tycho
11-01-2002, 05:21 PM
Remember the Handmaidens. They're there for a reason, too.

I think it would be most effective if you see ALL of the Handmaidens act as decoys, also getting killed, and they are ALL carrying little bundles to make them look exactly like the last time a bounty hunter or Clone Trooper last saw Padme.

Thus, she could have had twins, or she could have had quintuplets for all anyone (of the movie characters) knows for sure. All the characters really know is that she was expected to have one (1) baby.

I also think that while Vader (who doesn't talk to much to begin with) may only have 5 minutes or less of dialogue, that doesn't mean he can't be in the last fifth of the film. Having Vader stalking Padme (especially if his identity is hidden to new audiences) and killing what - (up to 3 Jedi) defending her decoys - plus the bounty hunters and Clones getting involved, would be most dramatic. Especially Dagobah - the most eery place to be stalked and a flashback to Vader's image beng there in Empire Strikes Back. Not to mention, it will make that stage of ESB even more scary, because in ESB, your brain pauses and you say - for a second - it's illogical for Vader to be on Dagobah. He doesn't know where one tiny X-wing went after Hoth. He's tracking the Falcon, possibly thinking Luke's on board - or at the least knowing his friends are. But now if Vader had been on Dagobah before, maybe he's played a hunch - and there he is blocking Luke's path - right up until the point when you see Luke's head appear in the vision of the decapitated avitar's head!

It will be the part of the movie where:

Boba Fett corners Mace Windu who acts as another decoy, but gives himself to the Force: "desintegrating" and leaving only empty robes and no scalp for Fett to take to avenge his father.

Plo Koon is destroyed by Darth Vader - giving Vader a high profile Jedi to fight.

Ki-Adi Mundi is also destroyed by Darth Vader, one more Jedi for him to kill. Vader doesn't have to talk to destroy them. They might feel who he is in the Force, but he only acts like a single-minded killing machine.

Then Obi-Wan confronts him - and Vader let's him go! Possibly knowing full well that Obi-Wan is going to raise his son! That would be a shocker, especially after the violence in which the other Jedi die, and the obvious hatred Vader could have for Obi-Wan. But it would provide the chance for the "Come with me" / "I can't. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master!" / "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" scene that Vader referred Luke to in ROTJ.

I suppose it would be a shocker indeed:

Vader let's Obi-Wan go to raise his son where he'll never know what happened to them both!

Yet this seems logical - and prior to that gives the fans the chance to see what they wanted to see: Vader destroying Jedi.

JEDIpartner
11-03-2002, 02:15 PM
I think it would be quite logical for Anakin to lead Obi-Wan into a trap. This would be where Anakin could exact his revenge for Obi-Wan "holding him back." This could be something that Papatine grants him. Perhaps during Padme's preganacy, unbeknownst to the Jedi or the senate (except for Bail Organa) she is thrifted away to a secret location. Palpatine uses Padme's disappearance to his advantage and sends a message to the Jedi that she has been abducted. Responding to the message, Obi-Wan and Anakin are dispatched to the alleged location where Padme has been taken and that's when the real plot becomes apparent to Obi-Wan and the battle ensues.

Word of Anakin's "death" reaches Padme via Bail Organa's presence in the Senate. Padme sends a message back to Obi-Wan, who joins her in time to be present at the birth of the children. She is advised that the children need to be split up in order to make certain at least one of them survives. At this point no one outside of those privvy of the birth realises the preganacy yielded TWO children. Padme keeps Leia with her thinking that if either child should be "sacrificed", it should be the girl :eek: and that Luke should be taken to a location so obvious that Anakin wouldn't even look there.

Just another theory...