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Vortex
11-02-2002, 02:56 AM
Looking to bounce ideas and thoughts about this Chapel off anyone or Masonic Brothers.

I'm giving a talking to the Minneapolis Valley Southern Jurisdiction in a few months pertaining to this scottish chapel, so I'm looking for alternate information, interpretations, or signs and tokens I might have missed.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
11-02-2002, 09:50 AM
Is it true that while you are in the Masonic Temple you can only walk in a left or right direction but not both?

Vortex
11-02-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
Is it true that while you are in the Masonic Temple you can only walk in a left or right direction but not both?

False. There are 2 stations that move/walk during a meeting and they go east to west, north and south and have to double back to their post. You just can't walk between the person sitting in the east and the center of the room.

Exhaust Port
11-02-2002, 12:40 PM
Wha? :confused:

Deoxyribonucleic
11-02-2002, 01:18 PM
Can somebody explain what a Masonic Temple is? Who goes there? Is it a religion? I'm serious as I've heard that name forever and have absolutely NO idea what it is????:crazed:

Vortex
11-02-2002, 01:19 PM
Rosslyn Chapel is a small chapel located about 7-9 miles south of Edinburgh Scotland.

This chapel has been thrust into the occult lime light in the last 10 years due to various books making wild off the wall assumptions that it hold some ancient Templar treasure, the ark of the covenant, the holyrod of Scotland, Jesusí head, the holy grail, sacred scrolls that would cast religion as we know it on its head...blah, blah, blah. All these ideas stem from the belief that it was as refuge for Templar knights after the papal bull declared the templars an enemy of the church and they used this chapel as a marker or resting place for some religious or heretical artifact. Some also claim that the Templars with the help of the St. Clair family (family who owns and cares for Rosslyn) made journeys to Canada and the US prior to Columbusís discovery of America.

To make a long story short, there are many Masonic symbols and lore that goes along with this small out of the way chapel. Iím looking for Masonic Brothers or anyone else who knows part of its history and wild theories to help a bit with a report Iím giving to the Scottish Rite body in a few months.

2-1B
11-02-2002, 01:27 PM
Deox, they're kinda like the Stonecutters. :D

Vortex
11-02-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
Can somebody explain what a Masonic Temple is? Who goes there? Is it a religion? I'm serious as I've heard that name forever and have absolutely NO idea what it is????:crazed:

A Masonic Temple is nothing more than a building where Mason's hold their meetings, discuss donations, and events. Its otherwise known as a Lodge. Mason's are the only ones allowed into the meetings, but other events can be held there that are non-mason in nature.

Its not a religion or a cult. Any one who believes in a higher power can join. We accept all religions and one of our foundations is, everyone is entitled to their believe and no man may judge or critize another for what they believe in. There is a lot of religious symbolism used in the lodge but it encompases all religions - from egyptian to hebrew to islam to christianity.

Masonry goes way back, the origin is unknown, but the United States was founded by Masons on Masonic Principles that everyone is equal, justice, freedom, and truth.

Deoxyribonucleic
11-02-2002, 01:35 PM
Thanks Caesar, thanks Tjov. :)

derek
11-02-2002, 03:07 PM
my grand father tried to get me to join the masons, but wouldn't tell me what is was all about. he said it's a secret only members can know about, but i do know they have secret handshakes, get to wear cool secret decoder rings and always help out fellow masons who have car trouble.

i didn't join, i guess that's why i had to change my last flat tire.

Exhaust Port
11-02-2002, 05:34 PM
They're also the ones with the black helicopters over your house. ;)

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
11-02-2002, 09:29 PM
My dad's best friend is a Mason. In fact, he was head of his lodge at one point. Even though he is quite the talker, he shuts up immediately when we bring up his work for the Masons. We're only able to extract a little bit of information from him and his family. It is a pretty secret society, don't ask me what their secrets are, and what powers they hold, but I did know that during a time period from the last century to the beginning of the 20th, any Mason that spoke to their public about their so called secrets faced death. I guess one of their secret responsibilities is keeping Steve Guttenburg in Hollywood. ;)

Also, say what you want about the Masons, but they are excellent at canning!

Old Fossil
11-02-2002, 09:34 PM
Nothing like iced sweet tea from a Mason jar, either, LBC.

Vortex
11-02-2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
My dad's best friend is a Mason. In fact, he was head of his lodge at one point. Even though he is quite the talker, he shuts up immediately when we bring up his work for the Masons. We're only able to extract a little bit of information from him and his family. It is a pretty secret society, don't ask me what their secrets are, and what powers they hold, but I did know that during a time period from the last century to the beginning of the 20th, any Mason that spoke to their public about their so called secrets faced death. I guess one of their secret responsibilities is keeping Steve Guttenburg in Hollywood. ;)


Yea secrecy is a large part of the fraternal organization. Its part of our obligation and unity toward our fellow brothers...a promise to them that I can be trusted. But if you're creative and patient enough you can find out all the secrets in books and on the internet. Nothing we do is completely secret anymore. The handshakes, passwords, degrees are all out there for the world to see. But in our obligations we promise not to share or tell our secrets with anyone who's not part of the system. We even keep secrets from fellow brothers that are not of the same degree...but that rule isn't strictly followed.

The items we keep secret are nothing more than ways and means to identify another Brother.

Death was a penalty back in the day, but its not inforced anymore...its just a symbol and a history lesson.

Deoxyribonucleic
11-02-2002, 11:23 PM
Are women allowed into the "Masons"???

Vortex
11-02-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
Are women allowed into the "Masons"???

no its sort of like a "good old boys" organization. But women can join an off shoot like the order of the eastern star which is a section of the organization. They also have jobs daughters, and maybe one more group.

Deoxyribonucleic
11-02-2002, 11:47 PM
No offense here but I figured as much.

This whole "mason" thing reminds me of that organization of christian men that get together once a year and spout out crap like "women belong in the house barefoot and pregnant" And believe that women shouldn't work, go to college or wear pants and other crapola like that.

If this is not what it's about, I sincerely apologize! Truly, as I've spoken without clear and precise knowledge!

However, from reading the posts and looking to the past, anytime some kind of "club" is formed with these two ingredients
1. MEN ONLY
2. RELIGION
it is usually to the disadvantage of and harm to women as a group EVERYWHERE!

Vortex
11-03-2002, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
No offense here but I figured as much.

This whole "mason" thing reminds me of that organization of christian men that get together once a year and spout out crap like "women belong in the house barefoot and pregnant" And believe that women shouldn't work, go to college or wear pants and other crapola like that.

If this is not what it's about, I sincerely apologize! Truly, as I've spoken without clear and precise knowledge!

However, from reading the posts and looking to the past, anytime some kind of "club" is formed with these two ingredients
1. MEN ONLY
2. RELIGION
it is usually to the disadvantage of and harm to women as a group EVERYWHERE!

Again, its not a religious group. Its the furthest thing from a religious group. It accepts all religions and individaul beliefs. Any form of a Diety is acceptable, no matter what you believe in. In the Lodge there is no talk about Religion or Politics, its a rule. It keeps the two powder kegs from influencing or splitting the members. As a sad fact, some churches or branches of churches, are anti-masonic and aren't accepting of our gnostic ideals or let people choose to believe in whatever form of a Diety they choose. For an organization like a church that teaches tolerance and acceptance of people that are different from them, they sure have a funny way of showing that. Some church officials won't preform rituals (marriage, baptism, communion, etc.) if they know you to be connected to the Masons. They have no idea what Masonry is about, but make assumptions about what we do and have never bothered to learn or accept what we do. Some churches still believe we exist to undermind their authority, when in fact we encourage members to be active in the community and whatever church they belong to.

As for women, there are branches they can belong too, but they cannot join the main body of the masons. I don't know why they aren't invited in, could be at one point it was a drinking club, could be a reminder of the fighting monks the templars, could be a link to the jewish priest and levits, could be a link to the actual working stone masons of the middle and dark ages, a resemblance to ancient work crews and construction guilds, some ancient egyptian ritual or meaning, could be any number or reasons. The history of the organization has been lost and added to over time. Just because women aren't allow doesn't mean its evil or bad or harmful. Could be because one of the degrees the canidate is topless...could be to save modesty...I honestly don't know.

Women have their own groups, their own women only things that I would never chose to join, and I would respect their desire to be a group of women only. There are women only golf courses, gyms, organizations that cater to women only. They use it for their security and safety, and they have their reasons for excluding men and I respect their need or desire to keep men out. Its their choice and who's to say that they aren't trying to harm men everywhere, or harbor negative ideals toward men.

The Shriners are a branch of the Masons, and they have free childrens hospitals all over the country, other masonic brances also have eye clinics, cancer centers, speech clinics, which are for the most part free of charge for children and people in dire need, and give large donations to various civic organizations like the boy and girl scouts. They also give college scholarships and give to their communities. These hospitals and clinics are largely paid for from our dues, and donations from the community and estates from old members. We try and provide and contribute for society and help out as best we can.

So if you see them as bad or problematic, so be it since we exclude women from the main body. If the good that come from the Masons doesn't counterblance that I can't change your thoughts or view point, and you are entitled to your views and ideas. But remember that the women's movement is still a fairly new thing compaired to an organization that's been around, existed in some form or other since the egyptian era or earlier. Is it right...probably not, but its an organization that deals with old ancient traditions and histories. Some where at some time for some reason some brother or group of brothers decided for some reason to exclude women and it has just stuck. Should we let them in now? I can't personally say. I would need to know why they originally weren't part of the organization and see if it still pertains to this day. They do have an option of joining a branch if they so choose, but they are limited in the organization. I would need to know more before I could make a fair judgment.

Deoxyribonucleic
11-03-2002, 10:30 AM
As I said before, I mean no disrespect if my thoughts were wrong.

I simply wanted to know if that was what it was like.

My post in no way was about men not being able to be in their own groups as I could careless about mens' groups! If you read it again you will see that it has to do mostly with religion as well.

Being a man yourself, you may not understand what it is like to live in a world that STILL shames and undermines women, yes here in the UNITED STATES too. And when I see a group with men only and religion, it creeps me out, because bad things in the past usually brew from those two ingredients. AND I have a right to be creeped out!

Now that I know Masons aren't religious that settles my curiosity. Again, I was NOT attacking your little group, I simply wanted to know if that's what they were like.

Hopefully the air is clear now as I made sure to post several times that I meant no disrespect! Simple curiosity was all and now my curiosity is settled.

And you must know that when you post something so controversial, you're gonna get flack for it and it's not a personal attack on you in anyway! :)

Vortex
11-03-2002, 12:58 PM
DNA - I was in no way shape or form digging on you, talking down to you, or puffing up my chest and saying "chicks stay out".
But I have a hunch that's how you interpreted my earlier message, and I do appoligize if that's how you read it, but I was just trying to remove your pre-assumed notions which you have already established, and to me, already passed judgment without knowing any details. And no I didn't take it as a personal attack. All I wanted to do was present what I knew and let you make your own assumptions, but to me it seemed you had all these preconcieved negative notions prior to knowing anything about it.

Yes, I do agree that you have every right to be creeped out when religion and men's groups get together. It scares me too since I detest any form of organized religion and think the churches of this day and age are hypocritical and turning into business or turning on themselves. I too pass a judgment before knowing anything about the organization and that's part of the problem. I don't take enough time to find out about them and remain neutral when I do. I attack right away and I'm only adding to problems and see things one sided. But anyway, History is a prime example of how bad it can me...and I'm looking to the middle east and you're promise keepers group, but please don't assume that every organization, religious or not, is out to get women.

I do also agree that women in the US get some what cheated, but on the other side of the coin, I can say that they get better treatment that men in some cases. And this is just from my family life and work life.

In architectural school some women got large scholarships only because they were female, and the college was trying to meet some standard of getting women into the school. Was it fair to them, the other students? No because the scholarship wasn't offered to everyone. It selectivly singled out women. Did it bother me, no. Did it bother others yes quite a bit actually. The deserving kids who were poor or had proven to be worth a scholarship were passed over or selected based on their sex.

My cousin was excused from taking a final when she talked to her professor about her break up with her boyfriend and how she was too depressed to study for the test that week. She batted her eyelashes and she was exempt. Was it right for the professor to do that? I couldn't tell you.

My own mother was hired into a job she is completely unqualified for at her work, but was only given the job because of the political nature and atmosphere of her workplace. She happens to have a better realtionship with the boss than the head of HR does, so my mom who has zero HR training was made superior to the woman who has her masters in HR.

I interviewed for a architectual position out of college, and it was down to myself and a younger woman who only had a 2 year technical degree with no design or achitectural qualifications or classes. I had my 4 year achitectual degree, design classes, project management the whole works. They hired her over me, and the job description was looking for project designers and architects. Was she justly qualified? I don't know, could have been but a 20 year old vs an 22 year old at that time, I don't think experience was a factor.

My current boss hired an incompetant female designer and let a senior male designer go. She has never made a deadline, doesn't know code, or how to use a computer, create construction documents, and doesn't understand the basic elements of her job or the architectural or design field. Was this fair, I personally say no. We lost a qualified competant worker and replaced them with a unqualified worker. I personally didn't get along with the guy since we had creative differences, but he did his job damb well, and now the office has to do her job to save face for the firm. She is a nice person, but a miserable employee.

When I go to lunch with some female co-workers on more than one occasion they have gotten a free meal since the waiter thought they were attractive, or a waitress gave them a free meal since they were friendly or fun to chat with. I've never gotten a free meal or deal w/ or without a female in my company.

I do see women passed over for senior jobs, don't get paid the same in some fields, but at the same time they do get perks or undeserved promotions because they are female. Is this justified because they have been stonewalled for so long? I don't know, but I too have been a victim. Is the playing field level? I don't personally think so, but I don't know of a good way to go about it either. A good compromise leaves everyone upset.

I do thank you for asking and wanting to learn more, and taking time to learn, and I don't harbor any ill feelings towards you or classify you as some woman libber. You have your own ideals and values and I don't want to change them, only make you think about them and add to or subtract from them if you find something on the other side of the issue. I am glad you now have more information and can make other judgments and like you said, I will be attacked for a controversal topic, but isn't attacking or giving flack on something you don't know just as bad at harboring ill feelings and hatred which you yourself are fighting against?

Mind you all these questions are rethorical. I don't have all the information or answers and I can only hope it give people something to think about. I took no offense and I can only hope you don't either. This is my side of the coin and my experience.

Deoxyribonucleic
11-03-2002, 01:34 PM
Hey, no I didn't feel that way at all! I in turn felt you thought I was thinking something else entirely, like guys can't have their own groups which I encourage they do through and through....that's why I said so many times that I meant absolutely NO disrespect to the masons or anyone else for that matter...HONEST! It all stemmed from pure curiosity! :) and as I said before the way I interpreted some of the posts, it seemed to me that the masons had a deep religious thing going on and that's why I asked what I asked, but now I know that is absolutely NOT the case! And I don't care that women aren't allowed, as you guys aren't allowed to our secret tampon parties :) j/k guys gotta do stuff with guys and chicks gotta do stuff with chicks. The whole problem I was having was only if religion was involved as I find religion to be a very very oppressive entity that causes way more damage than it does any good in this world! So please know that I meant no disrespect to you or anyone else! :)

I guess computer discussions just aren't as good as face to face as there is no tone, inflection, facial expressions to show that people aren't really mad but are just discussing. ;)

ps. I even apologized in the very first post if what I was about to say contained any misconceptions.

Vortex
11-03-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic

I guess computer discussions just aren't as good as face to face as there is no tone, inflection, facial expressions to show that people aren't really mad but are just discussing. ;)



Hey don't worry about it there was zero offense taken and besides I don't take too many things personally, so don't worry about appoligizing. I like to think I'm an easy going somewhat understanding guy.

I guess we just both misread some posts, read between the lines a little too much and made general assumptions based on what we read...not a problem, we corrected the problem and now we have a better understanding.

And I do do agree the computer is bad to hold a debate or discussion. You can't tell if a quesion is a philosophical question or and accusation...I know we both didn't use the later to define our chat. It just happens on e-mail. There's no quick question and answer either to help define or explain.

But hey we're still friends right:)

So with that being said...do you know anything pertaining to Rosslyn Chapel?

Deoxyribonucleic
11-03-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich


But hey we're still friends right:)

So with that being said...do you know anything pertaining to Rosslyn Chapel?

HECK YES we are still friends! :) You are so right about reading between the lines...I think all humans are guilty of that and it can be good sometimes but as you said, not with computer discussions and debates :) there's just not enough "human" information/emotion portrayed in a computer byte hehe

And I've never heard of Rosslyn Chapel before :) but I did a search through MSN.com and found this great website. WOW it sure is Beautiful and there's a history section button at the bottom that might help you in your endeavors :)

http://www.rosslyn-chapel.com/

Good luck and hope you find what you are looking for! See you on the SSG boards Tjov (hope you don't mind if I shorten it, I don't remember the correct spelling and don't want to butcher your name!) hehe

Vortex
11-03-2002, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the website and I've already went down that road and contacted them directly and contacted some Masons who give the guided tours and I haven't heard a peep outta them yet.

But thanks for the debate and providing a link for others to check it out.

2-1B
11-03-2002, 03:38 PM
What does it cost to join?

Vortex
11-03-2002, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
What does it cost to join?

1st you need to petition a Lodge, and depending on where you're from the petition may cost you a few dollars. If I remember correctly I had to enclose a 50 dollar check with my petition so show I was serious and that would cover my dues for the 1st year.

They send a few brothers out to ask you a few questions, or they may call, but I don't know of anyone that wasn't accepted. Most lodges need new members. It hit a huge decline in the 70's, 80's and 90's and with all these old WWII vets and gray haired brothers passing they need all the new canidates they can get.

Once a year you'd have to pay dues and those are set by the Lodge. Mine are 45-50 bucks a year. Dues go toward the hospitals, clinics, building, and adding fellow Brothers who are down on their luck or hit a rough financial spot, or going to widows of past Brothers.

If you get into the York or Scottish Rite, or the Shriners they will have their own set of dues, and entrance fees which pay for the dinners, gold rings, pins, charity donations, etc. and they will ask for more donations as the year goes by, but you can write those off on your taxes if you have the finances and means to give.

But what you put in, you will get back out with contacts, and if you ever need nursing home care, medical help, the clinics and retirement homes at your disposal are well worth the costs of the dues. If you ever need financial assistance because of loss of a job, disability, or tradgic even the Lodge and other Brothers will help assist in making payments.

My Scottish Rite fee was 225 for 32 dinners, a 10K gold ring, a book and pin. The dinners alone would have cost over 225 dollars and I can only guess how much the 14th degree ring is worth. But you definitly get your money's worth and more.

If you do join, you are under no obligation to attend ever meeting or event. As with everything, the more you put in, the more you get out.