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View Full Version : Has Lucas left too little time to tie up the loose ends/inconsistencies in Ep. III?



Toad
11-16-2002, 01:50 PM
I feel like there could be a whole movie on just tying up the loose ends and various inconsistencies he has created. This MAY contain "spoilers", but I fail to see how there can be a spoiler for Ep. III if you've seen TPM and AOTC and the OT. Still....if you're the slightest bit timid, don't read the following..........










1. R2 and 3P0 have to somehow: stop serving Anakin and Padme, become the property of Captain Antilles, and (although I HATE this explanation as being way too simplistic and just an easy error-fixer) have their memories wiped. I almost wish that 3PO hadn't been made by Anakin -- that way he at least wouldn't have to have his "memory wiped", but how else do you explain him not remembering Tatooine and Owen, for starters?

2. Obi-Wan: has to somehow serve Bail Organa in the Clone War. He has to talk with Owen at some point and say "hey, give this lightsabre to little Luke when he's old enough" and be denied.

3. Uncle Owen: according to Obi Wan in ANH, Owen didn't agree with Anakin leaving to fight the wars. OK, well, so far that's a lie because Anakin took off from Tatooine the last time we saw Owen, so unless he goes back and they get in some type of argument, there's another inconsistency.

4. Darth Sidious: this guy has to reveal himself. If GL has pulled a fast one and he's NOT Palpatine (which would be stupid), then we have to find out who he is, and how he becomes unimportant by ANH.

5. Palpatine: we have to see how he goes from Chancellor to Emperor. He is obviously the EMPEROR in the OT, according to Lucas and the AOTC DVD, common sense, etc. But, if he is Sidious as well, then it's even more unnecessarily complicated. Further, since the Emperor in the OT obviously has Jedi powers, albeit dark jedi powers, wouldn't the existing Jedi be like "hey, Palpy, you used to be a sweet jedi like us!" Seems kinda strange......how the heck will Lucas tie this one up?

6. Padme: OK, she has a lot to go through. She has to have kids, have them separated, split to some other planet possibly with Leia, but then Leia has to be adopted by Bail Organa.....hmm....okay, once again, is this unncessarily complicated?

I'm sure there's more, but these are the things on my mind right now. I know we're supposed to have fun with all this stuff -- and I DO -- I just don't want to have none of this explained, or else when we watch ANH, we'd be like.......WAIT A DARN MINUTE, GEORGY!!"



I know lots of you guys think that Gui Gon or Mace will turn out to be bad, or that Dooku will turn out to be Anakin's papa, yada yada yada ..... but that all makes everything even more unnecessarily complicated! There's already too much going on (although, Lucas could theoretically tie up all those "loose ends" that I mentioned in the last 5 minutes, I guess....)

Beast
11-16-2002, 01:57 PM
You do realise that there is 3 years between the end of E2 and the start of E3. There is plenty of time to wrap up everything in E3, especially since most of the stuff doesn't even need to occur on screen. I won't go into how they can wrap everything up in E3, because this is the No Spoilers forum. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

QLD
11-16-2002, 02:16 PM
I am sure there will be many books to read on the subject that you can all check out later. ;)

2-1B
11-16-2002, 02:22 PM
You can't spell prequel without E and U

Pendo
11-16-2002, 02:30 PM
The Clone Wars Animated Series may help to tie up some of the lose ends. I wouldn't wory that much about it, I have my faith in George, all answers will be revealed...



















...I hope :rolleyes:!

PENDO!

Nexu
11-16-2002, 02:33 PM
Why is this in the No Spoilers section?

Toad
11-16-2002, 03:18 PM
Did you read my post?

I don't think this is "spoiler" stuff --- (a) it's common sense stuff, and (b) there can't be spoilers for a movie which isn't even out yet. ;)


If you want to move it mods, please do.

Beast
11-16-2002, 03:30 PM
Yes, there can be spoilers for a movie that isn't out yet. Lucas has made some comments already about the C-3PO/R2-D2 thing. As well as commenting about a few other things. Plus they started a bit of filming for E3 as well, already. And then there is the comments that Lucas and others make in the E2 Audio Commentary. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Toad
11-16-2002, 04:13 PM
I'll give you that, but my question is no more of a "spoiler" than the majority of other threads rolling around in this particular forum. For that which hasn't been confirmed, I'd love some opinions. (I'm tired of the "opinions" in the SPOILERS forum being construed as "spoilers") ;)

Jek Porky 2002
11-16-2002, 04:37 PM
Don't worry, I don't think it's a spoiler, just speculation!

Here's what I think:

Padme is already pregnant and has the kids half way through the film. Also remember that Liea was very young when Padme died, so we won't see her die. At the end she goes to live with Bail on Alderaan for safety with 3PO and R2, who serve for the Antilles family.

Something will happen toward the beggining of the film to make Anakin consider his destiny and all the way through he will be thinking of that and it will bubble up untill the end where he will snap and turn on Obi-Wan and Mace Windu, killing Mace, Obi-Wan injures Anakin thinking he's dead.

Either between II and III, the Republic has become the Empire, or the notion will be passed at the beggining.

At the very end we see Darth Vader standing along side Palpatine just for a few short moments, and Obi-Wan delivers Luke to Owen who reuses to take Ani's lightsaber.

That's not everything but it's just a few thoughts!

Pendo
11-16-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Jek Porky 2002
Also remember that Liea was very young when Padme died, so we won't see her die.

Every one keeps saying this means Padmé will not die at the end of Ep3, but I still think it is possible for her to snuff it!

"She died when I was very young" ... I think you're considdered "very young" if you've just been born.

"Just images really, feelings." This tells us that it's not a real memory of her mother, just feelings. Leia could sub-consciously be using the force here which is telling her what her mother was like.

PENDO!

Jek Porky 2002
11-16-2002, 04:53 PM
"She was always very sad"

What does that say!

Pendo
11-16-2002, 05:04 PM
That could have been part of her feelings. The whole line goes:
Luke - "Leia, do you remember your mother, your real mother?"
Leia - "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."
Luke - "What do you remember?"
Leia - "Just images, really. Feelings."
Luke - "Tell me."
Leia - "She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad."

If she is sub-consciously using the force to tell her about her mother then the "but sad" part would probably come with it.

I think it is 100% possible to kill her off in Ep3 and explain it in this way. :)

PENDO!

Nexu
11-16-2002, 05:46 PM
Well, the Geonosions disappear, as do the battle droids, Star Destoyers start showing up, work may begin on the Death Star, Clonetroopers turn into Stormtroopers, and switch sides (I want to see how that happens :)), the rest of the council has to die, Anakin switches to Vadar (obviously :p), among other things. It's going to be a great movie. :)

Toad
11-16-2002, 06:36 PM
I agree -- it'll be a great movie, and I'm assuming it'll be my favorite! :)

And the more I think about it, I'm sure there's plenty of time for all this stuff to happen. GL will probably explain away a great deal in the opening crawl, and then the rest will dealt with at the end.

However, I don't think the things I hit on should be left to the imagination between III and IV, or to the EU -- a lot of it is kinda crucial for tying up loose ends. (i.e., if Owen and Anakin don't talk at all, then lots of that crap at the beginning of IV is nullified).

darthvyn
11-16-2002, 06:58 PM
it's not spoilers unless it's actual info from the set or script or something - everything in here is speculation. that being said, here are my responses to some of your loose ends...


Originally posted by Toad
3. Uncle Owen: according to Obi Wan in ANH, Owen didn't agree with Anakin leaving to fight the wars. OK, well, so far that's a lie because Anakin took off from Tatooine the last time we saw Owen, so unless he goes back and they get in some type of argument, there's another inconsistency.

nope, he just said that owen worried that luke would follow obi-wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade. not that owen didn't agree with anakin fighting in the clone wars - he would have no reason or motive to. but being the uncle/father figure to luke, he had concerns for the boy... not anakin, though...



Originally posted by Toad
4. Darth Sidious: this guy has to reveal himself. If GL has pulled a fast one and he's NOT Palpatine (which would be stupid), then we have to find out who he is, and how he becomes unimportant by ANH.

how is he unimportant in ANH? "i have just received word from the emperor that he has disbanded the senate."

wow, pretty unimportant...


Originally posted by Toad
5. Palpatine: we have to see how he goes from Chancellor to Emperor. He is obviously the EMPEROR in the OT, according to Lucas and the AOTC DVD, common sense, etc. But, if he is Sidious as well, then it's even more unnecessarily complicated. Further, since the Emperor in the OT obviously has Jedi powers, albeit dark jedi powers, wouldn't the existing Jedi be like "hey, Palpy, you used to be a sweet jedi like us!" Seems kinda strange......how the heck will Lucas tie this one up?

we already HAVE seen him become the emperor - he was granted emergency supreme power... emperor-like power... in light of a terrible imminent conflict that he himself orchestrated to force the senate to give him just that power. he is sidious. and as sidious, he and tyrannus, (dooku) created two sides of a phony war so that palpatine's actions wouldn't be questioned.

just because he is force adept doesn't mean he was ever a jedi... he leared about his powers on his own, and delved into the dark side of the force, or he was instructed by someone else who had...


Originally posted by Toad
6. Padme: OK, she has a lot to go through. She has to have kids, have them separated, split to some other planet possibly with Leia, but then Leia has to be adopted by Bail Organa.....hmm....okay, once again, is this unncessarily complicated?

none of that NEEDS to be shown. i'm of a mind that i'd like to not see there be twins at all, only seeing one baby, but hints that there are two... that way, the final revelation of ROJ - that leia is luke's twin sister - could still be a secret. to me, it's the only possible secret that can be maintained throughout the OT (there are people who will disagree with that, but there are already plenty of threads about it...)

Toad
11-16-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
it's not spoilers unless it's actual info from the set or script or something - everything in here is speculation. that being said, here are my responses to some of your loose ends...
I agree, thank you.



Originally posted by darthvyn

nope, he just said that owen worried that luke would follow obi-wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade. not that owen didn't agree with anakin fighting in the clone wars - he would have no reason or motive to. but being the uncle/father figure to luke, he had concerns for the boy... not anakin, though...
Actually, Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen didn't agree with Anakin's fighting. See the following quote from the movie...
BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
Perhaps I shouldn't have specified "fighting in the clone wars", but I think that can be implied from the movie's quote.



Originally posted by darthvyn

how is he unimportant in ANH? "i have just received word from the emperor that he has disbanded the senate."

wow, pretty unimportant...


Thanks for the condescending tone... The name Darth Sidious is unimportant in ANH because we never hear of it. I said that IF Lucas makes Sidious and Palpatine NOT the same person for some reason, then we have to know why Sidious is so important in the first trilogy and not the second. Therefore, your quote about Emperor Palpatine disbanding the senate doesn't apply. If the two are the same person, which I believe, then we have to see when/why Emperor Palpy reveals himself as Sidious and drops the name Sidious.

Jedi Clint
11-16-2002, 10:23 PM
Ben is telling Luke what he needs to hear in order to get him to leave Tatooine. The entirety of his verbal communication during that sequence can be taken from a certain point of view......or considered to be an outright lie ;)

darthvyn
11-16-2002, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Toad

Thanks for the condescending tone... The name Darth Sidious is unimportant in ANH because we never hear of it. I said that IF Lucas makes Sidious and Palpatine NOT the same person for some reason, then we have to know why Sidious is so important in the first trilogy and not the second. Therefore, your quote about Emperor Palpatine disbanding the senate doesn't apply. If the two are the same person, which I believe, then we have to see when/why Emperor Palpy reveals himself as Sidious and drops the name Sidious.

sorry about the snide remark... sometimes my sense of humor can be somewhat prickish...

so if and only if sidious and palpatine are not the same person, is it necessary for sidious' unimportance to be revealed.

but, i don't think that's the case, so...

no one but darth maul and darth tyrannus know palpatine by the name sidious. even when dooku told obi-wan about how sidious was controlling the senate, he didn't tell him it was because he WAS palpatine... still, we don't even really need an explanation of his dual identities... we don't really get one for either of them! no where in the OT is he called emperor PALPATINE... just "the emperor" - palpatine was a name created in the EU, i believe in the comic book dark empire, so who's to say what name he goes by in the OT - palpatine or sidious. all we know him as then is "emperor."

anyway, i don't mean to argue... i just don't think it's the most important thing here... to me, what's more interesting is whether the general populace of the galaxy knows that they are being led by a dark lord of the sith or not... palpatine is going to have to be revealed as sidious in ep. III - but to what extent? to the whole galaxy? to the jedi? to only a select few jedi? that's what i want to know...

jedihunter25
11-16-2002, 11:25 PM
Yes, I think that there are alot of loose ends to tie up for a two and a half hour movie. I know that some of the main reasons why Lucas cut out some of the deleted scenes in AOTC was because of time. When Ep.3 is complete, I hope it is as long as LOTR to properly tie up the loose ends and make a nice connection with the OT. Plus it's the last movie- so I don't mind how long it is, I just hope that Lucas & Co. don't ruin it and leave qustions unanswered because they fell that they only have a little over two hours to do it.

Nexu
11-17-2002, 05:41 AM
Who thinks that Palpatine and Sidious aren't the same person?

YodaBoba
11-17-2002, 07:24 AM
I still believe Padme will remain alive at the end of Episode III. She could go into hiding on Alderenn with Bail and Leia. BUT she remains in the shadows and watches over Leia. Which means Leia sees Padme through some of her childhood until Padme's death. Padme doesn't have to reveal herself as Leia mother. So what Leia says to Luke in Jedi will remain the same. I believe Padme dies sometime between the eightteen years. A New Hope takes place 18 years after Episode III. I believe Padme takes Leia to Alderen with Bail and Padme goes into hiding until her death. I believe she will be alive at the end of Epsiode III.

Toad
11-17-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Nexu
Who thinks that Palpatine and Sidious aren't the same person?

Believe it or not, lots of crazy people think that they're clones, or brothers, or whatever. As I said in the original post, I think that makes everything so unnecessarily complicated in an already-complicated film.

I personally wouldn't mind if the whole of Ep. III is tying up loose ends whilst turning Anakin to the dark side. Something tells me the last 20-25 minutes will be a giant tie-up, which is also fine with me!

I just don't want to be left going from Ep. III to ANH and saying to myself, "Wait a darn minute! That is contradictory to what the prequel trilogy shows/says!"

I personally think it's too easy to chalk up inconsistencies to memory wipes and "certain points of view", but I realize that more likely than not, it's what's going to happen. Then, and only then, will I shut up! :)

Jek Porky 2002
11-17-2002, 10:36 AM
I think that we've discovered that the Clone Wars refers to the army of Clones of Jango Fett, and not meening that everyone had clones made.

So I doubt very much that Palpy and Sidious are clones!

Nexu
11-17-2002, 06:40 PM
OK, that was the answer I was looking for. ;)

stillakid
11-17-2002, 10:03 PM
I think that's there's plenty of time to do everything that needs to be done. So long as GL concentrates on the actual story this time and stays away from the pointless fluff (as in the far better IMAX version of AOTC). Anyway, instead of retyping, here are my ideas on exactly how this can be achieved (not that I'm holding my breath for him to do it right or anything. ;) )

There are no spoilers as these are all my ideas based on stuff we have actually seen onscreen thus far and have heard for the past 20 years:

The PLOT
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=193905#post193905

Concerning CloneTroopers
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=194532#post194532

The Question of Vader
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=191984#post191984

Palpatine's Nefarious Plan: An Outline of Events from Episode 1 to Episode IV
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=197008#post197008

LusiferSam
11-24-2002, 08:54 PM
Yeah I think GL has left too little time. My first thing is AGE. Ben and Vader are old in ANH. You only have about 20 years from when Anakin becomes Vader to the start of ANH. There are in problems here. And second, we're always heard Clone Wars, not War. To me that's a series of wars, not one long one. GL might have way around this. Other thoughts?

The Overlord Returns
11-25-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by LusiferSam
Yeah I think GL has left too little time. My first thing is AGE. Ben and Vader are old in ANH. You only have about 20 years from when Anakin becomes Vader to the start of ANH. There are in problems here. And second, we're always heard Clone Wars, not War. To me that's a series of wars, not one long one. GL might have way around this. Other thoughts?

Regarding Age: Alec Guinness was 63 when he appeared in ANH. One does not age that much physically between their late fifties and early sixties. In ep 2 Obi wan is in his early thrities........so....in three years, at the beginning of ep 3 he will be in his mid to late 30's. TAck on 20 years and you've got you're Old Ben Kenobi.......

As for Vader, no, he isn't that old. remember that the dark side drains the life out of users, leaving them old and frail. Just look at the chancellor between ep 1 and ep 2...he looks like he's aged 20 years. Then in ROTJ he appears to be about 200 years old. It's the dark side eating away at anakin that leads to his appearance in the OT.

The clone wars will rage on betwen ep 2 and 3, with the opening of ep 3 showing the final, climactic battle. After that opening 20 - 30 minutes, the story will shift to the fall of anakin, the decklaration of the empire, and the slander of the Jedi....

Arrogant Arse
12-19-2002, 02:55 PM
This is not totally on the topic, but I figured it sort of fit:Someone asked how the clone troopers switch sides. I don't think they "switch sides" I think that Palpatine/Sidious start a situation where the Jedi can't really lead the troopers, for various reasons. Bounty hunters pinging off Jedi, Jedi not being warriors, etc. Palpatine plays innocent, and says something to the effect of "Lets get recruits in here to lead them, and i'll find them." the Jedi agree, and that is their undoing. The clones are not on a "side," they are "just following orders."

TheJediCharles
12-20-2002, 08:12 AM
It's a lot better he has more material left to discuss than less. It's not like he has to distrubute the load of explanation in equal thirds. As a matter of fact that's what makes this last film so anticipated.

He also does not have to explain everything. The main reason why he doesn't is because there is a whole generation of time between Episode III and Episode IV and the difference between them is it's own explanation of what's been going on in the meantime.

We didn't have to see Anakin get trained to understand that he had been. We didn't have to see Jar Jar get elected to know that he had been. We didn't have to see Shmi get sold and married to know that she had been. Same thing between the two trilogies. Whatever isn't shown to take place is understood to have become by the time Episode IV's story begins.

So, don't expect everything to be explained like a court hearing. There has to be some thing's left unexplained to make the story more interesting to those that haven't seen the OT yet when first seeing the PT.

Besides, what's so interesting about knowing every single detail? What's made SW so interesting is what we were left to imagine, not the other way around.

So, sit tight, enjoy the next film and expect to be left with some questions, and don't get upset about it... it's not a mistake... it's by design.

TheJediCharles
12-20-2002, 08:26 AM
My first thing is AGE. Ben and Vader are old in ANH.

Uhhh... how is Episode III going to explain what you already have concluded is incurably wrong?

And second, we're always heard Clone Wars, not War. To me that's a series of wars, not one long one.

Aw, Lucas is just playing on pluraling the term.

He's just taken a poetic license with increasing the scale of his conflict by making it sound like what we only call battles (that make up a war) he calls wars to do the proportions justice. It's like the 'battle' of Geonosis is so huge in scale IT was A war in and of itself, as will other worlds in this humongous single civil conflict.

Or each aspect of the conflict is recognized as unique while simultanious, both independant and resulting of one another, such as there's a war between militaries, a war between the Jedi and the Sith, a war of ideals, even a war between the light and the dark side... many, many wars.

All in all, wars just sounds cooler than war.

Also, before there ever was a PT, how did you explain to yourself that the term "Star WarS" was plural? Whatever you did to pasify your urge to find fault there apply it here as well. One is no different than the other.

That's how I look at it.

But, as with your first complaint, how do you expect Lucas can solve a problem you've already presented as unexplainable? I chalk the first up to just the limitations of cinema having to choose the actors at hand as well as artistic exaggerations to suit the story and character development, while the other complaint is less a story point needing addressing and more of a total misunderstanding of a term meant to sound a bit alien.

If you're looking for these to be explained, you will no doubt be left disappointed, but that's no blame on Lucas in my opinion.