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Imperial Monarche
11-18-2002, 06:46 PM
Don't you think that, if Lucas wants these six movies to flow as a whole saga, Lucas should make it so that the viewer doesnt know that Anakin is Darth Vader until ESB? Like, we all know that he is Vader, but like generations from now that will watch it Ep. I to Ep. VI will not watch the movies with the preminition that Anakin turns into Vader. Then, the surprise in ESB will still be the biggest twist in movie history. In Ep. III, Lucas needs to make the audience believe that Anakin dies after his battle with Obi-Wan and then this new Sith appears because Tyranus is killed (by whoever, thats an entire different thread though). That new Sith is Darth Vader. Now, the audience of the future believes that Anakin was killed before he could turn evil and this new Sith has come to stand at Palpatines side. Then, in the second to last episode we find out that Anakin has not died but has been Darth Vader all along. Does anyone else agree with me?

Darth Trymybestus
11-18-2002, 07:15 PM
I see what you mean but it will make Anakin's downfall that much more dramatic if we see him as Vader at the end of Episode III.
For people who watch all 6 for the first time, they won't know that Palpatine is the Evil Emperor that we all know and love and they won't have a clue that he's Darth Sidious :)
I guess that whichever way you watch them.. there will still be surprises because people who watch all 6 for the first time will still be so shocked that Anakin actually turns bad because of the person he is in the phantom menace :)

2-1B
11-19-2002, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
Don't you think that, if Lucas wants these six movies to flow as a whole saga, Lucas should make it so that the viewer doesnt know that Anakin is Darth Vader until ESB?

Then he shouldn't have made it so the audience knows Luke's last name in episodes IV and V.

Sure, your suggestion could be a cool way to watch the movies. :)
The way episodes I and II have been written, there's really no point in not showing Ani as Vader in episode III because the locations (Tatooine in I and the Lars homestead in II) are dead giveaways.

However, if Luke ran around in IV and V under the name Luke Lars, not knowing he was a Skywalker until VI AND if George had omitted Tatooine from I and especially the Lars homestead and characters from II, then I think the secret could be preserved fully intact.

As it stands now, many people want it to still remain secret. I respect that perspective, but I have yet to see any theory as to how III can now be done with that secret intact. I'm not convinced by the idea of just leaving such coincidences as mere "hints" because they are so obvious.

But still, one can dream. :D

Toad
11-19-2002, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


Then he shouldn't have made it so the audience knows Luke's last name in episodes IV and V.



That's his point...Just because we know that Luke's last name is Skywalker will lead no one to believe that Vader is his dad, because in Ep. IV and V, we don't know that Vader was "once Anakin Skywalker, [his] father." Meaning, we never know that Vader's last name is technically "Skywalker."

If Anakin is presumed dead at the end of III, then perhaps the audience would be left to think, "hey neat, that Anakin guy's son is going to avenge his death and make things right in the next trilogy!" Then when Vader appears at the end, we'll just think it's another Sith Lord. (I say "we" in collective audience manner, not "we" as the nerds who've made this thing our life and know it in and out. ;))

I'm in agreement -- for the sake of drama and good storytelling, we shouldn't know that Anakin has become Vader until Luke finds out.

2-1B
11-19-2002, 01:04 PM
Yes that's true Toad, and I would completely agree with it if Obi-Wan hadn't told Luke of Vader murdering his father. :)

If "we" see Obi-Wan presumably kill Anakin in battle, and then in episode IV "we" are introduced to Darth Vader whom Ben claims killed Anakin . . . then what? Heck, even if episode III were done with Anakin "dying" at the hands of someone other than Obi-Wan -- why is Old Ben telling Luke his father was betrayed and murdered by Vader? :)

The Overlord Returns
11-19-2002, 01:18 PM
Because obi wan is a filthy liar.

In fact...almost every question in sw can be answered with that one sentence.

2-1B
11-19-2002, 01:23 PM
Well that would explain things, but then they should show Obi-Wan as a shady character in the prequels so when "we" watch them in order, "we" don't come to see him as a standup guy who has turned into a liar as an old man. :D

Imperial Monarche
11-19-2002, 09:14 PM
also, obi-wan knows that anakin is vader, but that doesnt mean we all have to know that. now, when the children are seperated we could assume they were given away because their mother dies, and later realize that it wasnt just to give them a place to live but a place to hide. so obi-wan tells luke his father was killed by vader to protect him, but the audience doesnt really know that but people will start suspecting that there maybe something more to vader that will be revealed later. still, if its done that way nobody would guess anakin to be turned into darth vader.

derek
11-19-2002, 09:24 PM
Then when Vader appears at the end, we'll just think it's another Sith Lord

then why didn''t darth tyranus appear at the end of episode 1?;)

seriously, i don't think having vader just appear is lucas' style. if you listen to lucas, he constantly says he's repeating a theme, though they sometimes contrast. at the end of jedi, we saw vader remove his mask, and was revealed to be anakin. i think lucas will reverse this, and at the end of episode 3, we'll see the mask go on and anakin will become vader.

lucas is spending a lot of time with the prequils connecting everything. it just wouldn't jive to have anakin presumed dead and another robotic sith lord suddenly appear. plus, the whole prequil trilogy is about anakin's fall. it would be kinda lame if, after seeing him give into the dark side, he just dies and vader appears.:)

the only reason anyone has this "anakin dies" theory is because of what obi-wan said in episode 4. fans have taken this and twisted it into some alfred hitchcock/m. night shamalayn kinda ending, that isn't in lucas' nature.

Toad
11-19-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Yes that's true Toad, and I would completely agree with it if Obi-Wan hadn't told Luke of Vader murdering his father. :)

If "we" see Obi-Wan presumably kill Anakin in battle, and then in episode IV "we" are introduced to Darth Vader whom Ben claims killed Anakin . . . then what? Heck, even if episode III were done with Anakin "dying" at the hands of someone other than Obi-Wan -- why is Old Ben telling Luke his father was betrayed and murdered by Vader? :)

You make valid points. Once again, Lucas' betrayal to his original story rears its ugly head. ;) (I'm not bitter, I just act like it). The whole "from a certain point of view" thing by Obi-Wan in ROTJ is okay I guess, but you are right ---- really, no matter what, if Anakin is "dead" at the end of III, then we're stuck going "darnit Obi-Wan, you are a filthy, filthy liar! (and not to mention completely inept at fighting Dooku....)!"

Too many inconsistencies! :( (I made a thread on that in the Non-Spoiler forum). And this is another one to that IF, and only IF, we the audience are left to think that Anakin was killed by Obi-Wan. I guess the only way around that is if we're left to believe that Obi-Wan TRULY felt like he wasn't fighting Anakin....and for that to happen, Anakin would already have to be Darth Vader.....which leads us back to the same problem!!

I guess that leaves one option: he has to be Vader, and we're supposed to think it's interesting and mythical from the perspective that Luke doesn't know Vader is his father. Still, this takes away SO MUCH DRAMA and the most suprising element of the OT.

BAH!!!!!!! :crazed:

Imperial Monarche
11-19-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by derek

the only reason anyone has this "anakin dies" theory is because of what obi-wan said in episode 4. fans have taken this and twisted it into some alfred hitchcock/m. night shamalayn kinda ending, that isn't in lucas' nature.

yeah, i guess your right. when everyone sat down to watch ESB, we all already knew that vader was luke's father. you're right, Lucas hates twist endings, its just not like him to fool the audience....:rolleyes:

derek
11-19-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche


yeah, i guess your right.

thanks for the support. i knew my logical arguement would win you over.


Lucas hates twist endings, its just not like him to fool the audience

the prequil trilogy isn't about having a "twist ending". it's about the fall of anakin skywalker. episodes 1-3 will see anakin go from good to bad to evil. it would make no sence, story wise, to even make the prequils, if the audience saw anakin descend to the dark side, become evil, and then "die" and have some robot show up called "vader". if there was to be any "twist" it would of been in episode 2 most likely, and dooku's revelation that a sith lord is controlling the senate, and his appeal to enlist obi-wan to help him is all the "twist" this prequil trilogy is probably going to have.

personally i'll feel cheated if we don't see anakin become vader. if these films had been made in order of 1-6, and some major changes were made, i'd agree with you, but it will be rather obvious to anyone who sees 1-3 that anakin becomes vader. lucas has already said that in episode 3, anakin will have a lot more mechanical body parts, making it obvious that he becomes vader. plus, seeing anakin "put the mask on" will give closure to the star wars universe as we know it. luke still won't know who vader is, and it won't hurt the story for the audience to know.

based on episodes 1 and 2 and their parallels to episodes 4 and 5, it's fairly obvious what the basic story and plot points of episode 3 will be. just think "jedi" without the ewoks and luke(anakin) giving in to the dark side.

Imperial Monarche
11-19-2002, 09:55 PM
yeah, lucas has already said there will be alot of revelations and surpises in ep III. that is his style, and in case derek hasnt really paid attention to the way the OT went, it was full of surpises (anakin is vader, luke and leia are siblings- well maybe not full of surprises but it had some twists- who knew that han would be incapacitated in the end of ESB) but, to know the a Sith lord is in charge of the senate is no big secret, so thats not the twist but there has to be a twist if he wants to stay tru to star wars lore.

scruffziller
11-20-2002, 01:13 PM
This an interesting discussion. GL would be wise to make EPS 3 the keystone in which will tie all 6 togehter rather than having each trilogy function on its own. It would be somewhat unsettleing to see that 1,2,3 would nothing more than a mere answer key to the OT. I don't think GL wants that.


Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
also, obi-wan knows that anakin is vader..

Yes but when and how??????????:confused: :crazed: :D

stillakid
11-20-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
Don't you think that, if Lucas wants these six movies to flow as a whole saga, Lucas should make it so that the viewer doesnt know that Anakin is Darth Vader until ESB?

Certainly, decidedly, definitely, distinctly, evidently, incontestably, incontrovertibly, indubitably, obviously, overtly, patently, perceptibly, plainly, positively, precisely, prominently, purely, recognizably, seemingly, sharply, sonorously, surely, translucently, transparently, undeniably, undoubtedly, unmistakably, beyond a reasonable doubt...YES!

There's really not much more to say. :)



Except, as a postlude, Obi Wan is NOT a fink liar as everyone is trying to paint him as. (sigh) Him telling Luke about his father was not to LIE to him or manipulate him. He told Luke what he did because Obi Wan really believed that the personae of Anakin was dead. There really wasn't much point in filling the boy with any false hope of "meeting his father" or anything, because of what Anakin had become. To Obi Wan, Anakin was dead. :dead: So this rampant necessity by everyone (even the Fan Club this month) to paint Obi Wan as a LIAR and even "explain away" some of the Prequel inconsistencies with it is really heading down the wrong road. Don't take the "point of view" comment as a code word for "liar" and you'll see another layer of sublety to the OT that isn't rammed down our throats.

But, then again, that's all just my opinion. :)

The Overlord Returns
11-21-2002, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


to paint Obi Wan as a LIAR and even "explain away" some of the Prequel inconsistencies with it is really heading down the wrong road.

But if you're going for a laugh....it is absolutely the right road......

come on, no one calls obi wan a filthy liar and is serious about it.... ;)

Darth Vellner
11-21-2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by derek



I don't think having vader just appear is lucas' style. if you listen to lucas, he constantly says he's repeating a theme, though they sometimes contrast. at the end of jedi, we saw vader remove his mask, and was revealed to be anakin. i think lucas will reverse this, and at the end of episode 3, we'll see the mask go on and anakin will become vader.

lucas is spending a lot of time with the prequils connecting everything. it just wouldn't jive to have anakin presumed dead and another robotic sith lord suddenly appear. plus, the whole prequil trilogy is about anakin's fall. it would be kinda lame if, after seeing him give into the dark side, he just dies and vader appears.:)



Yea...I think it will be like this also....

When we watched ESB we were shocked with luke to find out that.. Vader was his father!..but when people of the future watch the movies 1- 6 It will be more from Vader's point of view...Wondering how luke will react to the info that he is lukes father....

stillakid
11-21-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


But if you're going for a laugh....it is absolutely the right road......

come on, no one calls obi wan a filthy liar and is serious about it.... ;)

Uh, I'll dig through some of the older "discussions" some of us have had. There are some members trolling around here that are quite serious about it. I've heard it insisted many times that we "can't trust anything Obi Wan says" or something to that effect just because of that one incident with Luke.

I was thinking, in fact, that this one topic probably deserves it's own thread. To me, it was such an obvious throwaway facevalue explanation that Obi Wan gave Luke in ROTJ, yet others have taken it to mean that Obi Wan can't be trusted in any case. Seems weird to me, but then again, I didn't see Midichlorians coming either. :crazed:

The Overlord Returns
11-21-2002, 12:35 PM
I would not go so far as to say that Obi Wan cannot be trusted....however.....

His initial conversation with luke about all these half truths was a basic case of manipulation. EVERYTHING Obi Wan tells luke is designed to lead him to go on the quest with Kenobi. Ben certainly wouldn't be helping his cause by saying HE nearly killed lukes dad, and it was actually the empire that kept him alive as Darth Vader. In fact, it was damn lucky for Obi Wan that the stormies found and slaughtered owen and beru, or else the whole thing would have been shot.

This goes right up to Ben telling Vader that being struck down will "make me more powerful than you could possibly imagine. Now, not only does luke hold Vader and the empire responsible for his birth fathers death, he now wants revenge for Kenobi, his father figure. It makes Luke a driven warrior in the cause for freedom from the murderous empire. Kenobi knew he had to tell Luke distorted versions of what happened, in the hopes that it would lead Luke to join him, and thus, save the galaxy.

stillakid
11-21-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I would not go so far as to say that Obi Wan cannot be trusted....however.....

His initial conversation with luke about all these half truths was a basic case of manipulation. EVERYTHING Obi Wan tells luke is designed to lead him to go on the quest with Kenobi. Ben certainly wouldn't be helping his cause by saying HE nearly killed lukes dad, and it was actually the empire that kept him alive as Darth Vader. In fact, it was damn lucky for Obi Wan that the stormies found and slaughtered owen and beru, or else the whole thing would have been shot.

This goes right up to Ben telling Vader that being struck down will "make me more powerful than you could possibly imagine. Now, not only does luke hold Vader and the empire responsible for his birth fathers death, he now wants revenge for Kenobi, his father figure. It makes Luke a driven warrior in the cause for freedom from the murderous empire. Kenobi knew he had to tell Luke distorted versions of what happened, in the hopes that it would lead Luke to join him, and thus, save the galaxy.

True. It's all true, what you say. It was subtle manipulation, however, I've read countless posts (and even a mention in this month's Insider!) that suggest that Obi Wan is a liar at heart and more to the point, there is a consistent use of the "point of view" phrase to rationalize various inconsistencies within the Prequels. For instance, the issue that I've brought up many times about Qui Gon and why he doesn't belong in the Saga at all. In the established continuity of the OT, Obi Wan says point blank to Luke, "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Ergo, Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher. But enter the rationalizers with the "point of view" explanation for everything. Anyway, I agree with your above post, but my original rant concerned what I see others say. :)

Here is the copy from the INSIDER:


Star Wars INSIDER #064 December 2002, page 6

He's a man of action and few words -- which is probably a good thing, since the less he says, the more you can trust him. "From a certain point of view" indeed!
:rolleyes: Oh brother!

The Overlord Returns
11-21-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


In the established continuity of the OT, Obi Wan says point blank to Luke, "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Ergo, Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher.


I think I've already given you my take on this. It goes right back to Obi Wan telling Luke only what he needs to know. Luke gains nothing from learning that a dead Jedi Master was Obi Wans mentor. Yoda obviously had a hand in instructing child kenobi, and as a constant mentor in kenobi's knight years. Luke is told to go to yoda as he is the only jedi left alive that can teach Luke the ways of the force. He doesn't need to know about Qui Gon Jinn.

stillakid
11-21-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stillakid
[B]

In the established continuity of the OT, Obi Wan says point blank to Luke, "You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Ergo, Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher.
[B] [QUOTE]

I think I've already given you my take on this. It goes right back to Obi Wan telling Luke only what he needs to know. Luke gains nothing from learning that a dead Jedi Master was Obi Wans mentor. Yoda obviously had a hand in instructing child kenobi, and as a constant mentor in kenobi's knight years. Luke is told to go to yoda as he is the only jedi left alive that can teach Luke the ways of the force. He doesn't need to know about Qui Gon Jinn.

I respectfully agree to disagree. :)

I reason that Qui Gon was created because GL needed a victim for Darth Maul to kill and subsequently for Obi Wan to avenge. Maul had to die to open the door for Anakin (or Dooku) but he couldn't just have Obi Wan do it. It had to be in an act that seemed somehow justifiable. So having the bad guy kill off Obi Wan's mentor seemed like the best path, except that GL still needed Yoda to survive. Enter the new character, continuity be-damned. :) I came to this conclusion by looking at the character and what he "does" in the story. He has absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to die at the hands of Maul. In the meantime, Obi Wan is left in the wings twiddling his thumbs, as Qui Gon does everything that the OT told us that Obi Wan should be doing. Now, having said that, GL could change my mind by creating a purpose for Qui Gon in Ep III that no other character could fulfill. But I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. :)

gibbyhayes
11-21-2002, 03:12 PM
What do you guys wish Obi would have said? "Hey kid, I've been waiting your whole life for today, and you know what, have a seat and get a load of this - your dad is a robot devil and I've been here hiding from him for 20 years because I really ****ed him off. Now, here's a laser sword but be careful, I've seen people melt through doors with one of these. Let's go find a surly pilot to take us to your sister, who your dad is holding hostage, free her, and whoop his *****. Oh and by the way, your mom was hot."
Some times lying is easier, that's why we do it.

stillakid
11-21-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by gibbyhayes
What do you guys wish Obi would have said? "Hey kid, I've been waiting your whole life for today, and you know what, have a seat and get a load of this - your dad is a robot devil and I've been here hiding from him for 20 years because I really mad him off. Now, here's a laser sword but be careful, I've seen people melt through doors with one of these. Let's go find a surly pilot to take us to your sister, who your dad is holding hostage, free her, and whoop his butt. Oh and by the way, your mom was hot."
Some times lying is easier, that's why we do it.

Once again, he didn't "lie." He told Luke exactly what he himself believed to be true, that Anakin was dead.

Is this thing on? (stillakid bangs on the microphone) :confused:

Lyet
11-21-2002, 03:47 PM
Going back to the original point of not revealing Vader til ESB, I have to say that I think this would be a bad idea. The way I very the movies is that ANH, ESB, and RotJ should be watched first. Then you should watch TPH, AotC, and ???. These there movies should be treated as Prequels, meaning they take place earlier in the timeline, but not from the viewers point of view. Their purpose is to tell the backstory, not start the tale.

The Overlord Returns
11-21-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


I respectfully agree to disagree. :)

I reason that Qui Gon was created because GL needed a victim for Darth Maul to kill and subsequently for Obi Wan to avenge. Maul had to die to open the door for Anakin (or Dooku) but he couldn't just have Obi Wan do it. It had to be in an act that seemed somehow justifiable. So having the bad guy kill off Obi Wan's mentor seemed like the best path, except that GL still needed Yoda to survive. Enter the new character, continuity be-damned. :) I came to this conclusion by looking at the character and what he "does" in the story. He has absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to die at the hands of Maul. In the meantime, Obi Wan is left in the wings twiddling his thumbs, as Qui Gon does everything that the OT told us that Obi Wan should be doing. Now, having said that, GL could change my mind by creating a purpose for Qui Gon in Ep III that no other character could fulfill. But I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. :)

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I am a big Qui Gon fan, hence I'm glad he is in the prequels ;)

However, the OT only ever told us that Anakin was Obi Wans apprentice. In the prequels, anakin is Obi wans apprentice. Now, I will agree on the Maul theory to a point.......but, I tend to look at it that Maul was created for no other reason BUT to be killed by Kenobi, thus justifying his promotion to Jedi Knight not 45 minutes after being told ( basically) that he was not ready to take the trials. Bang, this young Padawan punk does something his mentor couldn't do, face down and best a sith, but something the entire council, including yoda, has never had to do. TPM is Obi wans movie in the final 20 minutes......he essentially saves the day.

The Overlord Returns
11-21-2002, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by gibbyhayes
What do you guys wish Obi would have said? "Hey kid, I've been waiting your whole life for today, and you know what, have a seat and get a load of this - your dad is a robot devil and I've been here hiding from him for 20 years because I really mad him off. Now, here's a laser sword but be careful, I've seen people melt through doors with one of these. Let's go find a surly pilot to take us to your sister, who your dad is holding hostage, free her, and whoop his butt. Oh and by the way, your mom was hot."
Some times lying is easier, that's why we do it.

I don't think stillakid or myself are saying Obi Wan was wrong to say what he said, we're just discussing the how and why of what he said.

stillakid
11-22-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns

I tend to look at it that Maul was created for no other reason BUT to be killed by Kenobi, thus justifying his promotion to Jedi Knight not 45 minutes after being told ( basically) that he was not ready to take the trials.

True. TPM tried to force the idea of "symbiotic" relationships down our throats, but this Qui Gon/Maul relationship is the best example of it. Those two characters existed for no other reason than to die at the end of the movie...to give Obi Wan a reason to jump into action. I guess what I'm getting at is the ends didn't justify the means. Continuity was sacrificed and precious screentime was wasted all so that Obi Wan could prove himself worthy of becoming a Jedi. That could have been done in any number of different ways without causing so much trouble otherwise.

The Overlord Returns
11-22-2002, 12:38 PM
Well,......not exactly. Jinn also exists to discover anakin, introduce him to Obi Wan Kenobi, and see that, in hids death, Obi Wans love for qui gon drives him to train the boy. He also exists to play out the one with the force angle. The story is unfolding that, qui gons speaking from the grave has never happened before. What will happen, I assume, is that Yoda will find a way to perfect this, and teach it to Obi Wan, knowing that, when Kenobi dies, he is still going to be needed by the "New Hope", luke skywalker.....

Sure, there were other ways to have all of this happen without Jinn, but the creation of this one character helps to tie together many plot points....and it's a device thats used in film all the time.

stillakid
11-22-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Well,......not exactly. Jinn also exists to discover anakin, introduce him to Obi Wan Kenobi, and see that, in hids death, Obi Wans love for qui gon drives him to train the boy. He also exists to play out the one with the force angle. The story is unfolding that, qui gons speaking from the grave has never happened before. What will happen, I assume, is that Yoda will find a way to perfect this, and teach it to Obi Wan, knowing that, when Kenobi dies, he is still going to be needed by the "New Hope", luke skywalker.....

Sure, there were other ways to have all of this happen without Jinn, but the creation of this one character helps to tie together many plot points....and it's a device thats used in film all the time.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. If George pulls some new story purpose for Qui Gonn out of his hat for Episode III, then I'll reconsider, but as it stands, his only purpose was to die.

Yes, he did "introduce" Anakin to Obi Wan, but take away Qui Gonn, and POOF! OB1 can discover Anakin himself, be amazed at how strongly the Force was with him, and take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi...just as the OT says he should.

The "One with the Force" thing? I don't know. But there's nothing onscreen to tell us that this "from the grave" communication has never happened before. That's all EU at this point. As older viewers of the Saga, we've seen some Jedi vanish at death and some not, but never has there been any onscreen indication that either version of death is out of the ordinary for a Jedi. It's inconsistent, but only to us, the audience. Had Yoda said something to Mace like, "Very strange. Qui Gonn's voice I hear." Then maybe we'd have something. But as of now, it's just another one of those conveniences that GL tosses in every once in a while to advance the story. :)

die-jarjar-die
12-04-2002, 10:32 AM
Im interested to know what you guys think about the Anakin/ Vader transformation in Episode 3 & how GL will tackle this on screen.

From a personal perspective & also assuming that GL STILL wants the knowledge kept secret for 1st time viewers I think it can be assumed that at no time during the movie will Anakin be referred to as Darth Vader & likewise we WILL NOT see him donning Vaders armour after sustaining life threatening injuries at Obi Wans hands.

I personally think it will be *hinted* at that Vader/Anakin are the same...perhaps a knowing look or subtle comment from Obi Wan.

I think that during the *final* lightsaber battle Obi Wan will knock Anakin off a platform, Anakin disappearing from view *read: fall in lava* & Obi Wan believing Anakin dead will leave for places unknown *read: the same trick that Obi pulled on Jango on Kamino & Obi (being a nice chap) leaves Anakin preferring to think of him dead* Obi returns to Padme & informing her of the loss of her husband, she turns to Bail Organa for comfort.

We the audience are left with a cliff hanger being led to assume that anakin has perished. At some later point in the film a dark clad warrior appears & is simply referred to as Lord Vader, the audience left to assume that this dude has been on the scene for a while. Obviously we the audience know different BUT to the virgin viewer it would be assumed that Anakin had perished in the battle with Obi Wan & the identity of Vader WOULD REMAIN a mystery until the revelation in ESB, also further cementing Obi Wans comments regarding THE TRUTH of Lukes father in ANH. As i commented earlier it can be *suggested* that Obi Wan knows or has suspiscions of Vaders true identity but fear for the twins lives & indeed his own keeps him silent.

Anybody agree/disagree? Id be interested to hear some other view points?

therock0603
12-16-2002, 02:11 PM
the only thing it will change is the fact that what happened in ESB was a plot twist...otherwise it will all still be a saga

therock0603
12-16-2002, 02:14 PM
but I like your theory die-jarjar-die

sounds very likely and it would be very well done for the movie

stillakid
12-16-2002, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by die-jarjar-die
Im interested to know what you guys think about the Anakin/ Vader transformation in Episode 3 & how GL will tackle this on screen.

From a personal perspective & also assuming that GL STILL wants the knowledge kept secret for 1st time viewers I think it can be assumed that at no time during the movie will Anakin be referred to as Darth Vader & likewise we WILL NOT see him donning Vaders armour after sustaining life threatening injuries at Obi Wans hands.

I personally think it will be *hinted* at that Vader/Anakin are the same...perhaps a knowing look or subtle comment from Obi Wan.

I think that during the *final* lightsaber battle Obi Wan will knock Anakin off a platform, Anakin disappearing from view *read: fall in lava* & Obi Wan believing Anakin dead will leave for places unknown *read: the same trick that Obi pulled on Jango on Kamino & Obi (being a nice chap) leaves Anakin preferring to think of him dead* Obi returns to Padme & informing her of the loss of her husband, she turns to Bail Organa for comfort.

We the audience are left with a cliff hanger being led to assume that anakin has perished. At some later point in the film a dark clad warrior appears & is simply referred to as Lord Vader, the audience left to assume that this dude has been on the scene for a while. Obviously we the audience know different BUT to the virgin viewer it would be assumed that Anakin had perished in the battle with Obi Wan & the identity of Vader WOULD REMAIN a mystery until the revelation in ESB, also further cementing Obi Wans comments regarding THE TRUTH of Lukes father in ANH. As i commented earlier it can be *suggested* that Obi Wan knows or has suspiscions of Vaders true identity but fear for the twins lives & indeed his own keeps him silent.

Anybody agree/disagree? Id be interested to hear some other view points?

The long and short of it is, that I agree totally with you. It can be done and should be done but it won't be done.

For more on this topic from myself and others, please visit our sponsors below:



Well, here's...
Another thread with the same purpose (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=61889#post61889)

But I've gone through and found some of my more relevant posts regarding this topic:

We do not have to see Anakin get up (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=191984#post191984)

The Climax and Epilogue of Episode III (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=89549#post89549)

The Problem with Showing Vader in Episode III (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=89798#post89798)

Can George Do It? (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=66074#post66074)

The Climax summed up (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=65692#post65692)

The reality of the situation (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=89784#post89784)

Wookiee
12-17-2002, 09:32 AM
no matter how Episode III turns out, I really think that for the sake of posterity, people in the future will still watch the 6 films in the order they were released, 4,5,6,1,2,3. At least, that's how I would recommend watching the 6 films to someone in the future who hasn't seen any of them.
Just because one event happened before another doesn't mean it has to be in that order in a movie or series of movies, or books, work of fiction, etc.
Take "the Godfather" movies for example. Godfather II has some scenes that occured prior to Godfather I and some that happen after. The cuts and edits make it a great film and tell the story in a compelling and interesting way. Someone came along and re-did it all as "The Complete Epic" and just put it all in order, and I think that makes it far less interesting.
Another example is C.S.Lewis's Narnia Chronicles. The first 2 books were not exacly in chronological order either originally. I think a publisher later changed that, but now you can find collections with both versions: some have "The Magicians Nephew" first, some have "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" first.
Anyway, I don't think Star Wars is going to work 1,2,3,4,5,6 and future generations will enjoy it more and appreciate it more if they see it in the order we did.

Imperial Monarche
12-17-2002, 10:08 AM
then, Lucas should have never called them episode I, II and so on, he should have just given them titles and then made prequals. Like, i agree that some movies have prequals with stuff that happens before the movie before them, like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, thats a prequal to Raiders, but it doesn't matter if you watch Raiders first. The Godfather was done in a way so that the second one showed past and present times, but the Godfather saga was titled so you have to watch them in a certain order, its not- The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, but with some before the first...it's titled to watch it in a certain order, just like star wars. Your suppose to watch it from I to VI, it may have been released a certain way but only cuz Lucas didnt know if he would ever come back to do the prequals, but he knew he was releasing the better half of the saga firt so that future generations can watch the backstory first, then get to the good stuff. but, if he intended for them to be viewed 4- 6 then 1-3, he didnt need the episode titles.

Wookiee
12-17-2002, 12:11 PM
good point, the Episode numbering system makes it seem like they should be in order, like a comic book series.

oh well.

stillakid
12-17-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
then, Lucas should have never called them episode I, II and so on, he should have just given them titles and then made prequals. Like, i agree that some movies have prequals with stuff that happens before the movie before them, like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, thats a prequal to Raiders, but it doesn't matter if you watch Raiders first. The Godfather was done in a way so that the second one showed past and present times, but the Godfather saga was titled so you have to watch them in a certain order, its not- The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, but with some before the first...it's titled to watch it in a certain order, just like star wars. Your suppose to watch it from I to VI, it may have been released a certain way but only cuz Lucas didnt know if he would ever come back to do the prequals, but he knew he was releasing the better half of the saga firt so that future generations can watch the backstory first, then get to the good stuff. but, if he intended for them to be viewed 4- 6 then 1-3, he didnt need the episode titles.

It sounds good on paper, but the way Lucas is writing the Prequels, he is destroying the reality. For dramatic purposes, he rightly built secrets and revelations into the 3 part saga which we recognize as the Original Trilogy.

Now, for some unfathomable reason, he's not only altering continuity that he himself established long ago, he is threatening to erase all the dramatic suspense that currently exists in the OT when it is viewed alone. If he continues on this path, watching these films in Episode order will render the last three episodes into a rather blah sequence of bland events, as the audience will already be privy to all the former surprises. Not one single bit of suspense, mystery, or surprise will be left. The (new) audience will already know all of it by the end of Episode III.

In doubt? Reimagine the dramatic build up as Yoda avoids answering Luke's question in ROTJ. In 1983, new audiences were on the edges of their seats to hear the definitive answer. Yes, everyone expected it, but to finally hear Yoda say the words, "Your father, he is" was cinema at it's finest! But, if Lucas gives it all away with the Prequels, what emotions are left for a new audience to feel as Yoda drags that moment out? Not much is left. The "dramatic" moment will just seem silly and ridiculous.

Wookiee
12-18-2002, 09:00 AM
how about the fact we don't even know that Yoda is Yoda at first during ESB? I know it becomes obvious to the audience before it does to Luke, but I always liked that little moment on Dagobah when Luke finally realizes the funny little green swamp creature that stumbled into his camp is the Jedi Master he was looking for all along.
Now the audience will be even more impatient with Luke, thinking "C'mon already, you idiot, HE IS Yoda!"

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-18-2002, 09:42 AM
A point that a lot of people seem to miss when discussing any apparent contradictions is that Lucas makes this up as he goes along. I truly beleive this. When he wrote A new hope he had no grand plan for three films.
He didn't decide Vader was Luke's father until he sat down one sunny day and wrote that particular page of ESB's script.
He certainly didn't decide that luke and leia were brother and sister until he wrote the end of ROTJ and couldn't be bothered to resolve the love triangle part of the story.
And as for the prequels he's making it all up. The legendary notes he had made I would imagine he put together some time after ESB and read something like this -
Anakin was trained by Obi-Wan.
Anakin is Vader.
He was good.
He went bad.

The rest is all spur of the moment stuff. There was no Darth maul until he wrote EPI, no clones, no Jango, no Dooku until he wrote EPII.

The whole thing is a fluid process. There is no grand plan. That is why there is contradictions. If Lucas is half as clever as he thinks he is then he will be able to tie the ends together as best he can. For those hoping not to see Anakin become Vader though.. I wouldn't hold your breath. It would be a "cool" scene, and if there is one thing Lucas likes, it's cool scenes.

....IMHO

Imperial Monarche
12-18-2002, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Emperors_Hand_2211
A point that a lot of people seem to miss when discussing any apparent contradictions is that Lucas makes this up as he goes along. I truly beleive this. When he wrote A new hope he had no grand plan for three films.
He didn't decide Vader was Luke's father until he sat down one sunny day and wrote that particular page of ESB's script.
He certainly didn't decide that luke and leia were brother and sister until he wrote the end of ROTJ and couldn't be bothered to resolve the love triangle part of the story.
And as for the prequels he's making it all up. The legendary notes he had made I would imagine he put together some time after ESB and read something like this -
Anakin was trained by Obi-Wan.
Anakin is Vader.
He was good.
He went bad.

The rest is all spur of the moment stuff. There was no Darth maul until he wrote EPI, no clones, no Jango, no Dooku until he wrote EPII.

The whole thing is a fluid process. There is no grand plan. That is why there is contradictions. If Lucas is half as clever as he thinks he is then he will be able to tie the ends together as best he can. For those hoping not to see Anakin become Vader though.. I wouldn't hold your breath. It would be a "cool" scene, and if there is one thing Lucas likes, it's cool scenes.

....IMHO

well, first of all Lucas didnt write the scripts to ESB and ROTJ. lawrence kasadan (sp) did, under the advisement of Lucas and from his story. then, in ANH there is hints dropped that the story of Lukes father wasnt completely told because of the looks aunt beru and uncle owen give each other. plus, obi-wan is pretty shady about the whole anakin skywalker story. then, in esb yoda says theres another hope- keyin into the whole brother sister thing, so he didnt just come up wit that in ROTJ. so therefore, Lucas didnt just come up with stuff right on the spot, he had it in his head the whole time.

geez, why don't some of you people just let him make the movies. they may not be goin the way some of you would like them too, but then again, you didn't come up with the star wars story. he's not makin this for the fans, obviously, it's for his own personal satisfaction but why shouldnt he, he's a story teller, he tells the story if he wants to, if he didnt he wouldnt. i dont ever remember hearin about somebody at like a book reading stopping the reader and sayin i don't like that, i think it should be this. thats rude!!!!!! yeah, i may give my opinions but if it doesnt happen that way, oh well its his story im still gonna enjoy it. people have complained bout how he created his own inconsistancies between the movies, but you know what, episode III still hasnt come out yet. he's not that stupid to contridict himself, he will resolve the inconsistancies in the final chapter. did anyone stop to think that maybe he's doing that for a reason?!but, what it all comes down to is if you don't like how he's doin it, why even go see it?

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-18-2002, 10:34 AM
OK
Firstly, and I mean no offence here so please don;t take any. Don't be so naive. He's making it up. Yes I'm aware of the scripts to ESB and ROTJ being written "under advisement. That means someone corrected Lucas' script for flow and timing. Something that wasn't done in EP1.
Yes I'm aware of the hints you mention. I have seen the films quite a few times, and quite recently. There are other plot points in there that Lucas decided not to explore due to the direction he took the story. That's what fluid means. The ability to change your mind at a later date. Lucas is a master at leaving open plot lines that can be adapted to fit different choices later on. This is why there are so many almost, but not quite, just about explainable contradictions in the SW films. Which in a way is good cos at least it fuels these forums.

Secondly I agree with everything in your second paragraph.
I'm not bashing lucas. He's a genius. Just cos I feel he came up with these brilliant ideas one at a time over a period of years rather than sitting down and planning a galaxy spanning saga doesn't make them any less impressive.
I'm quite happy to let him make his films the way he wants. I've loved every single one. Nothing he has done has annoyed me in the slightest, with the exception of the occasional toilet humour in TPM but that's a personal preference.
That's the point I'm making. There is little point debating whether Vader revealled to be Anakin before or after ESB is better because Lucas will make it work either way, and it will still be bloody brilliant. Although it's fun to speculate.

Thirdly i've tried changing this post about three times, I still sound rude, can;t help it. I'm not trying to offend I just can't seem to write effectively in a polite tone so just pretend OK.

I do respect your opinon and it is entirely possible you are right, but at the same time my explanation fits with the facts just as well as yours.

Imperial Monarche
12-18-2002, 10:55 AM
i wasnt necessarily gettin on you for the whole hating on star wars, because obviously you dont hate the prequals, i'm talkin about others. i just had a problem with the makin it up as he goes, sure he probably made up most of the characters for the prequals as he goes and i still don't believe lucas wrote any scripts to ESB and ROTJ, well he wrote some of ROTJ, but they are based off his story, not really a script he wrote, but hey im not george lucas so i don't know for sure. i just had to vent on all the ignorance that flows from other forumites in other posts. they all seem to hate the prequals but yet, here they are, so-called star wars fans tellin us how much they hate something they totally love. i really don't understand it.i thought a true fan followed to the very end, it just seem that way anymore.

stillakid
12-19-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
he's not makin this for the fans, obviously,

Wrong. In one of the last 2 or 3 Star Wars Insider's, George says himself that he used the Fett character in the Prequels specifically because Boba had become such a fan favorite. He is clearly making choices based on what he thinks fans want to see. He is also making choices based on what he perceives to be the popular fads of today.

Take for example Jar Jar Binks. Playing the role of the fool in this melodrama, Jar Jar is specifically written to play to the sensibilities of children younger than 10. Most Disney flicks of late have that same kind of goofy sidekick. Another example is the "video game" sequence in AOTC when Padme and Anakin fall into the droid factory. Clearly meant to emulate the kind of action that is used in a lot of video games, whether it makes sense for the story or not.

See, he made ANH for himself. Now he's second-guessing the market and is trying to hard to figure out the elements that will guarantee success -- exactly like a traditional movie studio. Yes, it's his property and he can do what he wants. No one is disputing that. The basis for most arguments though is that he is making the wrong choices for the wrong reasons and the end result are films that just aren't as good as they really have the potential to be.

stillakid
12-19-2002, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
i thought a true fan followed to the very end,


It depends on what you're a fan of.


If you are a fan of George Lucas, then you will support every single decision he makes and love it to death.

If you are a fan of the saga and the promise it holds, then you should hold the story up to a very high standard. When it (the writing and the execution onto film) fails to attain that high standard, then a true fan of quality writing is not precluded from crying foul. The position that many people take concerning the Prequels is that George has made some very elementary errors in regards to writing screenplays that just make plain ol' sense. The elements that he has chosen to use generally are not a problem. Rather it is his writing ability, the ability to arrange those elements in a cohesive story, that is called into question.

Raising those kinds of issues is not an indication that a person is not a fan, as you imply. Quite the opposite. A TRUE fan cares about the story enough to constantly question whether it has been done justice by it's creator. So, you can be a fan of George, or a fan of the story. They are not one in the same.

Imperial Monarche
12-19-2002, 10:20 AM
ok, Lucas does seek fan loves and put them into his story, but who doesn't do that. i mean, do you think Zahn would still be writing stories about the "dead" grand admiral thrawn if everybody hated him, no he's a favorite so u milk a favorite. simple as that, that's just economics. i remember reading that about boba fett and whether it was a good idea to write him in or not (i personally saw no problem in it and it tends to build boba fett as a more major character in the classic trilogy) and jar jar binks, yes he's annoyin and yes he was built for the children's comedy relief but this is a day of playin to all ages. look at golem, i mean he's not necessarily as goofy as jar jar, but he does tend to play the foolishness like jar jar did.
when i said he wasn't making the star wars saga for the fans, i was talkin bout the whole scheme of things, not the little plot points and such. who doesn't like to take some ideas from other places.and i wasn't tryin to say that your not a true fan either, you have the right to criticism and i actually enjoy debatin this kind of stuff with people like you that still love the whole saga but does have the little things to say. i don't like debatin with people that hate the prequals but love the old trilogy and just like to get on here and knock on how lucas can't make movies anymore (i know you will agree with me that he still can make a good movie, maybe not on the same calibur as ANH but he still can make a movie) and also how the prequals dialogue is to pretty and complicated which in ANH when all the imperial officers on the death star are talkin, there speech is quite complicated. i just get tired of that talk. i mean, some of the dialogue is not so great, but i was watchin some of the OT a few days ago and if u really watch it hard, some of that dialogue sucks too. its just everybody looks at the OT as so great, that they tend to gloss over the flaws and tend to over exaggerate the flaws of the PT when if you really watch them hard, they are just about the same. true, the OT is classic and doesn't play down at times to the kids like the PT does, but they are still pretty much close to the same. do you agree?

stillakid
12-19-2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
but i was watchin some of the OT a few days ago and if u really watch it hard, some of that dialogue sucks too. its just everybody looks at the OT as so great, that they tend to gloss over the flaws and tend to over exaggerate the flaws of the PT when if you really watch them hard, they are just about the same. true, the OT is classic and doesn't play down at times to the kids like the PT does, but they are still pretty much close to the same. do you agree?

Not as such. I've heard the line of argument before, regarding the multitude of "problems" that the OT has that we choose to "overlook." In light of that, a few moons ago, I began a thread so that people could post specific examples of the bad dialogue and tremendously large continuity errors that the OT supposedly contained. Aside from some quite minor things, nothing was brought up that was even remotely on par with many of the elements that have been discussed in regards to the Prequels.

As a disclaimer, I've never really looked to the minutia of the films to whine about. I prefer to look at the larger issues as they relate to the continuity of the saga as a whole. Of course, when applicable, the minutia comes into play, but that has never been my primary focal point for critique.

So, I'll invite you :) to post those attrocious lines of dialogue that plague the OT that equal some of the doosies that exist in the Prequels.

Imperial Monarche
12-19-2002, 09:55 PM
well, since i began the thread and for some reason it has stemmed to this, let me invite you first to give some lines of dialogue about the PT that is so bad so i'll know what kind of calibur i'm working from to give bad dialogue from the OT. tat would help.

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-20-2002, 02:28 AM
The question is where is the line. What parts of the PT has he always planned. Which are new ideas. Which parts are put in as fan things.
Personally I think most of EP1 was new stuff.
EP2 I suspect was fleshing out some vague ideas, i.e. what were the clone wars, how did they come about. I don't for a second believe he had all that planned out to begin with. He may have had ideas but nothing as concrete as a story as such.
The Vader as Luke's father thing I'm sure was always in the back of his mind as an idea during the OT but I would imagine it was only one of several possible routes he considered taking the story. He would have had to be able to take it in a number of directions, also ANH needed to stand alone with no loose ends since he had no garuntee of being able to make all three films at the time.
EP3 I suspect will be more fleshed out already since it has greater relevance to the chracter of Vader and Obi in the OT, which I assume was what the background notes were primarily concerned with.
There are some pretty rough bits of dialogue in ANH. Mostly the really sci-fi like lines that Ford and Fisher sometimes struggle to deliver.
Some of the Anakin/Padme love scene dialogue in EP2 was pretty ropey at times.
To be fair though I think that is as much a reflection of the genre as of the films individually. Most sci-fi flicks have some moments of dodgy dialogue, par for the course.

stillakid
12-20-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
well, since i began the thread and for some reason it has stemmed to this, let me invite you first to give some lines of dialogue about the PT that is so bad so i'll know what kind of calibur i'm working from to give bad dialogue from the OT. tat would help.

Gosh, where should I start?

ANAKIN
I was destined to be a Jedi. I
don't think I could be anything
else. But you are asking me to be
rational. That is something I
know I cannot do. I wish I could
wish my feelings away... but I
can't.


PADME
You listen. We live in a real
world. Come back to it. You're
studying to become a Jedi Knight.
I'm a Senator. If you follow your
thoughts through to conclusion,
they will take us to a place we
cannot go... regardless of the way
we feel about each other.




YODA
With you the force is strong...
young Senator. To see you alive
brings warm feeling to my heart.


PADMÉ
Oh Annie, you'll always be that
little boy I knew on Tatooine.



ANAKIN
It's worse... he's overly
critical. He never listens! He
just doesn't understand! It's not
fair!


YODA
An interesting puzzle. Gather
round the map reader, younglings.
Master Obi-Wan has lost a planet.
Find it, we will try...



ANAKIN
From the moment I met you, all
those years ago, a day hasn't gone
by when I haven't thought of you.
And now that I'm close to you again,
I'm in agony. The closer I get to
you, the worse it gets. The
thought of not being with you
mskes my stomach turn over - my
mouth goes dry. I feel dizzy. I
can't breathe. I'm haunted by the
kiss you should never have given
me. My heart is beating, hoping
that kiss will not become a scar.
You are in my very soul,
tormenting me. What can I do? I
will do anything you ask...




That's just some from AOTC. I didn't bother including the "Whoo hoo's" from TPM, or the ridiculous non-verbals (ie, C3PO's body wandering over to get in line for a new Battle Droid head). There are a plethora of things that just don't make any sense in the Prequels.

You mention that:

its just everybody looks at the OT as so great, that they tend to gloss over the flaws and tend to over exaggerate the flaws of the PT when if you really watch them hard, they are just about the same

Sure, you look at any movie and you're bound to find something wrong with it. The major difference between the OT and the Prequels you said yourself it that quote above...you have to look really hard at the OT to find something to complain about. When watching Episodes I and II, these things practically leap off the screen and jump down your throat.

Though, of course, I have no way of knowing, I suspect that Lucas had some fairly detailed notes concerning the broad strokes of the saga. If you've had the opportunity to read one of the early drafts of The Star Wars (http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller), you can see two things: 1.) just how bad a writer Lucas really is. The parallels between those early drafts of Star Wars to The Phantom Menace are astounding. And, 2.) a sense of some of the elements that eventually got scattered amongst the other Episodes.

So, again I can't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that he knew Vader was Luke's father and that Leia and Luke were siblings from the get-go. Those are the kinds of elements that he would have had to have known from the start to avoid continuity problems between Episodes IV and VI. But as he heads to the past to tell the backstory, a host of continuity and questionable errors are cropping up that don't mesh well with the established continuity of the original trilogy.

But I could almost live with some of that (ie, Qui Gon doing all of Obi Wan's actions) if these scripts had been written better (read: by someone else, like Lawrence Kasdan). I'm certain that someone like Kasdan would have picked up on much of the clumsy writing and found ways to massage it so that these new episodes a) worked better as stand-alone movies, and b) were more in line with the continuity of the OT.

But, of course, that's all just my opinion. ;)

Imperial Monarche
12-20-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

ANAKIN
It's worse... he's overly
critical. He never listens! He
just doesn't understand! It's not
fair!



LUKE
(in the most whinest voice possible) But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters.

ok, you're right. the lines of the OT is better, but i don't ever remember sayin that you have to look hard to find problems in the OT, you put words in my mouth. I said the problems tend to be glossed over and the problems of the PT are over exaggerated because they really aren't that bad. sure, the PM had some pretty bad lines from Anakin, but oh well. and, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it would make these forums very boring if we all agreed.

mini-rock
12-20-2002, 09:44 PM
I'll throw one in. The entire scene after Luke get's out of the bacta tank. (shudders)

jawaboy
12-23-2002, 07:20 PM
Here's my prediction for Anakin in Ep. III:

Anakin will lose most of his limbs and be mortally wounded.

Anakin will die during the battle against Obi-wan Kenobi.

He will then be saved by Palpy and resurrected.

The movie will close with Anakin in a Bacti Tank with Palpy playing with his mind and pulling him further to the dark side.

We will not see Anakin as Vader.

Vader's voice will only be heard at the end, but not associated with Anakin.

Fulfills Ben's story that Anakin was killed (from any certain point of view) and came back to life as Vader.

Fulfills Anakin's promise that he will learn how to stop people from dying.

Leaves suspense as new viewers will not know that Vader is Anakin until ESB.