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View Full Version : Vader lies to Palpy!!!



TheDarthVader
11-18-2002, 10:46 PM
In ESB, when the Emperor says, "Can it be done?" Vader says, "He will join us or die." Vader knew Luke wasn't going to join him. Vader could have used the dark side of the force or his lightsaber to kill Luke on Bespin. Why wait? Vader made the choice not to kill him. Therefore making his previous comment to the Emperor a lie.

Brian

stillakid
11-18-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Vader knew Luke wasn't going to join him.

The flaw in your supposition is above. Vader didn't know that. Especially at the time. When that conversation took place, Vader was still fully committed to the Empire. We only start to see his committment waver in ROTJ, once he finally gets to meet Luke face to face.

So, no, in my opinion, it wasn't a lie at all. Nothing of the sort. :)

2-1B
11-19-2002, 01:08 AM
I agree with stillakid, because Vader's plan on Bespin was to tempt Luke AND take him to the Emperor. That's when he would turn; Vader himself couldn't do it, but he fully believed the Emperor would win Luke's favor. :)

Darkross
11-19-2002, 11:45 AM
I kind of think it was partially a lie and partially not...

Vader was committed to turning Luke to the darkside...especially once he learned how powerful he was and saw his potential on Bespin.

Darth Vader: "Luke you can destroy the Emperor...he has forseen this...it is your destiny!...join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

Vader had plans to oust the Emperor...once he successfully turned Luke. I don't think for a minute that he was counting on the Emperor to turn Luke based on his comments above. Both the Emperor and Vader knew that if Luke joined them...one of them would have to go...each one knowing what the others intensions were. It was an unspoken understanding that Vader and the Emperor had.

Vader only wavered between light and dark in ROTJ...when Luke confronted him on Endor. (IMHO)!

The Overlord Returns
11-19-2002, 11:52 AM
Well, if Vader intended on overthrowing the Emperor, why did he stop Luke from killing him in ROTJ?

JEDIpartner
11-19-2002, 12:37 PM
Because killing the Emperor would have completed his jouney to the dark side... the Emperor even mocked him by saying something like, "Strike me down and complete your journey to the dark side..."

The Overlord Returns
11-19-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
Because killing the Emperor would have completed his jouney to the dark side... the Emperor even mocked him by saying something like, "Strike me down and complete your journey to the dark side..."

Hang on......I think my first post could have been clearer....

IF vader, who had already explained his desire to overthrow the emperor w/ Luke, and then rule together, WANTED to have the emperor gone, and have luke join him in the darkside.....why did he stop luke from killing the emperor in ROTJ?

OR, are you stating that, by the point that he stops luke from striking down the emperor, Vader was already against having his son join the darkside?

El Chuxter
11-19-2002, 01:05 PM
Vader is wavering between his loyalties to Luke and Palpatine, but at that moment he's more loyal to Palpatine, who doesn't want to be killed by Luke. He'd rather use Vader as a pawn to kill Luke, pitting father against son. By attacking the Emperor, whether he kills him or not, Luke dangerously skirts the edge of the Dark Side.

Rogue II
11-19-2002, 01:12 PM
Well, I was confused for a minute or two. Lets see if I got it straight.

In ROTJ, the Emperor basically starts the fight between Luke and Vader. Luke wants to kill the Emperor to save the Rebellion. Vader, with conflict within him, does what he is trained to do by protecting the Emperor. Luke doesn't want to fight Vader and proceeds to hide until Vader mentions "Sister." At that point, Luke goes ballistic, and whacks off Vader's hand. Palpy proceeds to fry Luke since he won't turn to the dark side. And, Vader finally chucks Palpy down the shaft to protect Luke.

Something still doesn't totally make sense. At what point did Vader give up on turning Luke to the Dark side and overthrowing the Emperor? Granted, Vader did destroy the Emperor, not to control the Galaxy, but to save Luke.

The Overlord Returns
11-19-2002, 01:23 PM
That's what I am getting at...............where along the lines did vader decide he'd better stick it out with Palpatine, rather than overthroiw him and rule the galaxy with Luke?

El Chuxter
11-19-2002, 03:03 PM
When Luke is crying for his daddy, watch Vader closely. That's the point when he decides his son--the last hope of the Jedi Order he once belonged to, and a reminder of his love for Padme--is more important than some old crackpot who rules the universe.

The Overlord Returns
11-19-2002, 03:31 PM
Yes, BUT.........

When Luke had the opportunity to cut down the emperor.........something Vader had said in ESB he wanted to accomplish so that he and Luke could rule.....why did he then stop luke from doing so? It would have been clear sailing for Vader from then on........

What I want to know is, when between esb and rotj did vader become so loyal to the emperor again?

stillakid
11-19-2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Yes, BUT.........

When Luke had the opportunity to cut down the emperor.........something Vader had said in ESB he wanted to accomplish so that he and Luke could rule.....why did he then stop luke from doing so? It would have been clear sailing for Vader from then on........

What I want to know is, when between esb and rotj did vader become so loyal to the emperor again?

Damn good question!

The quick answer is that he doesn't become loyal to the Emperor again, at least not in the same way that he was.

I think that the problem lies within the way we view what Vader says in ESB. But this begins with the events between ANH and ESB.

We can safely assume that after the first DS was destroyed, Vader learned the identity of it's destroyer through spies or whatnot. Until we see Ep III, it's up in the air whether or not Anakin even knew that he had any children. But whatever the case, it's beside the point, because his attitude pretty much throughout Ep IV and V is one of complete loyalty to the Emperor.

When he first talks to Palpatine outside the asteroid field about this, there is no reason to believe that Vader has anything but the most evil of intentions regarding Luke. The "join us or die" comment was pretty much straightforward. He knew that Luke was "strong with the Force" from his "feelings" in the Death Star trench, but at that point in the story, Vader knew that he had killed the last remaining Jedi, and ergo, the only one who could really teach Luke anything useful (assuming that he also believed that Yoda was dead.) As a result, he could safely assume that Luke wouldn't be a mortal threat to him (skills-wise) and the challenge would be all mental. Vader would either get Luke to come along or he would kill him...

This was the attitude that Vader had the entire way through the battle on Bespin...until Luke did the noble thing and leapt into the unknown, to his hypothetical death. That was the moment that changed everything for Vader. The whole business about being Father and Son was all part of his strategy to get Luke on the proverbial bus. Remember, turning someone to "evil" isn't a matter of simply saying, "C'mon over here, it's all fun and games!" No, it's a process of subtle cohersion that digs deep into someone's psyche. We're watching Palpatine do that to the insecure Anakin in AOTC with his quiet ego-boosting. Now it's Vader's turn to find Luke's own worst insecurity and use it against him. But, to his utter surprise, it failed. This is the event that gets him thinking. This is why, when the Falcon vanishes from view, Vader doesn't go on a killing spree. He stands, silently, pondering his own past, his son, and what his own future might hold.

So, as we enter ROTJ, we immediately meet up with a much calmer and more direct Vader than what we've seen previously. It's as if something's on his mind (and it is). The Emperor still has a hold on him, but now he's less inclined to see "it" through. There is a now a sense of responsibility towards his own son and it colors everything he does from here on out. Even through the mask, we "see" his consternation out on the gantry.

The two real questions are in regards to when he blocks Luke's blade from the Emperor and when Vader senses the "sister." I have my own opinions about those and will revisit them if need be. Thanks for being here today. :)

sith_killer_99
11-19-2002, 06:32 PM
Ah, see the problem here is the way the lines are interpreted. The way I see it.....

"He will join us

or

DIE, my master!"

See, it makes perfect sense that way. Either Luke joins them or the Emperor dies!;)

JK

2-1B
11-20-2002, 02:19 AM
Good points stillakid, and if I can add something from ESB, "I do not want the Emperor's prize damaged." At that point, I think his loyalty is still strongly with Palps. :D

Darkross
11-20-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
Ah, see the problem here is the way the lines are interpreted. The way I see it.....

"He will join us

or

DIE, my master!"

See, it makes perfect sense that way. Either Luke joins them or the Emperor dies!;)

JK

I suppose you could look it that way...Vader's subtle way of telling the emperor that he will be ousted!

darthvyn
11-20-2002, 11:31 PM
well, it's not really cut and dry for vader... he's trying to play all the games at once - his loyalty to the emperor, his trying to coerce luke into joining him to destroy the emperor, his desire to finally be dead, and ultimately, his realization that maybe somehow luke could be his salvation...

he blocks luke's attack on the emperor so that luke DOESN'T succumb to the dark side... and his loyalty act is so the emperor doesn't turn on HIM, and then take luke as his apprentice... it's a balancing act for vader in the final battle - but as we know, luke senses the conflict in him far before that.

anyway, with the addition of the knowledge that there are only ever two sith lords, every parlance between vader and palpatine is shed in a whole knew light - "if he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally..." - an ally to who? either palpatine or vader - they are practically always threatening each other with the possibility that either one has someone waiting in the wings to destroy the other. what they didn't count on, of course, was luke throwing his saber away, turning away from the dark side. this sacrifice on luke's part is what gives vader the strength to finally cast the darkness from his soul, and ultimately save luke's life rather than destroy it.

gibbyhayes
11-22-2002, 04:02 AM
Nice work stillakid, and well put. Hey, is it just me, or does the Vader costume seem dated - like it will be tricky or need modification to fit into ep.III (from a design standpoint)?

scruffziller
11-22-2002, 09:24 AM
I think he said "or will die" for effect for some Palpy brownie points. It may or may not have had any meaning.

stillakid
11-22-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by gibbyhayes
Nice work stillakid, and well put. Hey, is it just me, or does the Vader costume seem dated - like it will be tricky or need modification to fit into ep.III (from a design standpoint)?


Thanks!

And...

God willing, we won't see the costume in Episode III. (sigh) And this question is just one of the reasons why I'm so adamantly against the idea in the first place.

Ep I and II have had that glossy Republic sheen about them and there's no reason to suspect that enough time will have passed between II and III to cause much difference. The Ep IV Vader mask looks "battle-weary" to me, as it should after years of hand to hand duels with Jedi on the run.

But introducing that "war torn" battle armor into the still relatively shiny Prequels is just reverse-anachronism. It doesn't belong, will stick out like a sore thumb, and worst of all, threatens to give away the secret of Vader's identity.

The Overlord Returns
11-22-2002, 12:13 PM
Considering the costume changed between ep 4 and 5........... I don't see how that's a valid argument AT ALL for Darth Vader not appearing in the prequel......

Y23KC
11-27-2002, 01:42 PM
Many people didn't notice this, but Anny was supposed to be the fufillment of the prophecy of bringing down the empire and bringing balance to the force. He did these things by destroying most Jedis, therefore there were less that could be turned to the dark side. He also killed the Emperor himself, not Luke. So he really was the one all along just took a long roundabout way to get there.

stillakid
11-27-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Considering the costume changed between ep 4 and 5........... I don't see how that's a valid argument AT ALL for Darth Vader not appearing in the prequel......

No, you're right, that isn't exactly an argument for not seeing Vader in Episode III. I should have created a new paragraph for that statement. :)

But there are plenty of other valid reasons for not seeing him, none of which, I'm sure, will be honored by the Creator-Who-Can-Do-Whatever-He-Wants-To-And-Has George Lucas. :D

The Overlord Returns
11-27-2002, 04:09 PM
The only valid reason for not seeing him is obvious. Again, Vader can be seen without necessarily revealing him to be anakin. It's quite easy, in fact.

Besides, at this point, it's practically a given that we will see ( and hear) Darth Vader. We have been told that JEJ is doing 5 - 15 minutes worth of voicework (depending on what you've read). It would be more constructive to devise ways of doing this without stating that it's Anakin under the mask......

stillakid
11-27-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
The only valid reason for not seeing him is obvious. Again, Vader can be seen without necessarily revealing him to be anakin. It's quite easy, in fact.

Besides, at this point, it's practically a given that we will see ( and hear) Darth Vader. We have been told that JEJ is doing 5 - 15 minutes worth of voicework (depending on what you've read). It would be more constructive to devise ways of doing this without stating that it's Anakin under the mask......

I'll give you that...well, just that we'll most likely hear him. On that front, it's entirely possible that a closing scene could cast Palpatine and his new "sith lord" in the shadows, as they discuss the future. Something goofy to that effect anyhow.

As far as seeing him, as discussed previously, there are possible ways to show the black masked character without revealing the secret. However, given Lucas's heavy-handed storytelling ways in the Prequels, I don't have much faith that he can pull it off. Essentially what I'm saying is that if he ends Episode III with THE lightsaber battle (as he tends to do), then having a "mysterious" black suited knight pop up out of nowhere isn't much of a mystery.

The Overlord Returns
11-27-2002, 06:51 PM
See, I don't think the Anakin Obi wan fight will be at the end. I'm seeing it coming just after you hit the midway point of ep 3. I'm not entirely sure how it would work, but I keep looking at Obi Wans obvious flare for detective work. I think he deduces that Palpatine is the dark lord Tyranus spoke of, and confronts him. perhaps, at that point, Anakin reveals himself as the newly brainwashed apprentice of Sidious. Or, half way through a battle, where sidious feigns defeat at Obi Wans hands, Anakin steps in.....and his turn to the dark side is complete.

I also keep thinking about Bens statement in ANH about how Owen thought anakin should have "stayed at home and not gotten involved. I know the word is that we will only see tattooine briefly at the end of the film....but that just doesn't cut it. If anakin goes back, but then heads off to help obi wan on his "damn fool crusade"..... it makes much more sense.

I have to admit, I sometimes wonder if anyone at LFL is perusing the other trilogy to make sure they don't leave things like this dangling......