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Arrogant Arse
11-19-2002, 02:04 PM
I have a question, and or random thought, that may be really out there (No drugs were involved in creating this topic) .

In TPM and AOTC, the Jedi refer to the Prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force. They assume it is Anakin. The question/Random thought is this: Does Anakin's mere existance bring balance to the force, or does it happen in another way?
(okay this is where it goes wacko) As I see it, by being the father of Luke and Leia, those two balance the force out: Man/Woman, compassionate warrior/Strong leader, etc.
Anakin brings balance by fathering the (admittedly EU) Re-Founder of the Jedi, and Re-Founder of the republic.

Also in the EU, it is said that Luke uses both Light and Dark Side powers at points during his career as a Jedi. That would lead me to think that Luke can keep each side in check, and "balances the force"

That's my thought. Any Ideas?



(And yes, I am using valuable company time to post this, why do you ask?)

Mandalorian Candidat
11-20-2002, 10:23 AM
My impression of this so-called "balance of the force" is due to Anakin's eventual destruction of the Sith via killing the emperor and thus breaking the cycle of apprentice-to-master that the Sith depend on.

Because you can't have a light side without a dark side, it's been alluded to that every Jedi or every person contains part of the dark side, although its kept under control by Jedi. I see it as the light side of the Jedi balancing out the evil control the Force has over bad people. With the Sith being in existence perhaps the Force is unduly balanced toward the dark side, thus need for a chosen one to equilibrate the system.

As Yoda said, the dark side clouds everything thus the Jedi have diminished capability to use the force (Mace Windu). This is occuring due to the great power wielded by Sidious and Dooku. We have two evil beings tipping the scales against thousands of Jedi.

Jayspawn
11-20-2002, 11:25 AM
I don't think that in the time of 'Menace' and 'Clones' that any of the Jedi know how exactly the Force will be brought back into balance.

But it's interesting, powers of the force are still being discovered. In the audio commentary of 'Clones' Lucas reveals that Yoda hearing Qui-Gon Jinn's voice is the first time any Jedi has communicated after death.

Mandalorian Candidat
11-20-2002, 02:22 PM
I agree with you on the ignorance of the Jedi, jayspawn. In the deleted OB1/Mace scene Mace just acknowledges Ani's potential as the chosen one. Not how or when he'll accomplish his calling. Mace doesn't speculate at anything they don't know, he just says that they have to show faith in Ani that he'll do the right thing.

stillakid
11-20-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Arrogant Arse
I have a question, and or random thought, that may be really out there (No drugs were involved in creating this topic) .



However, drugs were used in creating that nonsense about "the one." It just flat out doesn't make sense, at least with the info we learn onscreen. And like most of what we see in TPM, I doubt that it will ever be explained or resurrected. GL got b*tchslapped by fans over that movie and I think he'll think twice before bringing up any reminders of it anytime soon.

That's my opinion anyway. Or it could be the NyQuil talking. :dead:

Mandalorian Candidat
11-21-2002, 09:56 AM
I have to disagree with you on this one stillakid. I think putting emphasis on Ani's potential due to his possibly of being a chosen one was necessary. He's an 8-year-old with no prior Jedi training from a world outside the Republic. Why would Qui-Gon be motivated to free Ani and possibly further jeopardize his position before the council in wanting to train him if it weren't for some huge potential? Why would the council ultimately give permission for Ani to be trained if he were a run-of-the-mill force-sensitive person? He's already to old to start his training, so G.Lu. had to put in some kind of motivating factor for Ani's acceptance by QG and the council to occur. Otherwise why would they want to deal with him at all?

From what I remember of the discussion on SSG around the time of EP1's release the complaints weren't about the chosen one prophecy, it was more of the whole 'virgin birth' thing. That part bothered me somewhat, but I just chalked it up to G.Lu. trying force some kind of mysticism into the plot. I don't think we'll see much of the chosen one thing in EP3 unless Palpatine uses it to inflate Ani's ego and arrogance even more. It's usefulness is over because Ani's already been accepted by the Order, not because G.Lu.'s afraid it will drive away fans.

Jar Jar on the other hand... :rolleyes: ;)

stillakid
11-21-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
I have to disagree with you on this one stillakid. I think putting emphasis on Ani's potential due to his possibly of being a chosen one was necessary. He's an 8-year-old with no prior Jedi training from a world outside the Republic. Why would Qui-Gon be motivated to free Ani and possibly further jeopardize his position before the council in wanting to train him if it weren't for some huge potential? Why would the council ultimately give permission for Ani to be trained if he were a run-of-the-mill force-sensitive person? He's already to old to start his training, so G.Lu. had to put in some kind of motivating factor for Ani's acceptance by QG and the council to occur. Otherwise why would they want to deal with him at all?

From what I remember of the discussion on SSG around the time of EP1's release the complaints weren't about the chosen one prophecy, it was more of the whole 'virgin birth' thing. That part bothered me somewhat, but I just chalked it up to G.Lu. trying force some kind of mysticism into the plot. I don't think we'll see much of the chosen one thing in EP3 unless Palpatine uses it to inflate Ani's ego and arrogance even more. It's usefulness is over because Ani's already been accepted by the Order, not because G.Lu.'s afraid it will drive away fans.

Jar Jar on the other hand... :rolleyes: ;)

To be fair, I was being just a little facetious. ;) I'm sure GL had some story reason to have Qui Gon spit those words out, but based on what we've gotten onscreen thus far, I can't for the life of me decipher what it could be. Any explanations we come up with are complete conjecture.

But in terms of screenwriting, you are right about placing emphasis on Ani's Force potential. Because of his age, GL had to come up with some motivating factor to get the kid noticed [by Qui Gon (should have been Obi Wan, but that's another discussion)] and accepted by the Council.

However, this is GL's story, and as such, he painted himself into a corner by putting this so-called age-limit on Jedi Training in the first place. Who's to say that 12 years old is too old? Well, George did, and he didn't have to. But he did and that required him to create some elaborate plot devices to

A) get him noticed, and
B) get him off the planet.

In regards to "A", GL used the Midichlorians :rolleyes: and this "prophecy of the One."

In regards to "B", he concocted a Rube Goldberg-ian setup with the Podrace to both "prove" that he had Force potential and also get Ani free and off the planet.

All that just because he was "too old" to begin the training.

So anyway, back to the prophecy. In the interest of full disclosure, my prejudices run against "ancient prophecies" and the like. To me they're just really weak plot devices for any genre to help explain why something is happening without having an actual reason for it. It's kind of like saying that somebody is evil just for the sake of being evil. Okay, but there isn't a whole lot of depth there. In most cases, the audience wants to know why somebody is doing what they're doing. Why did the butler do it, etc etc etc? So just laying out this "Anakin's the One described by the prophecy" is just BS writing as far as I'm concerned. It's a weak shortcut that got Anakin into the Jedi Order that will never be explained.


PS, the "Virgin Birth." Yeah, the way I see it, he was trying to get cute with the Jesus parallels. That's the gist of it. It was goofy and ridiculous and quite unnecessary.

Lyet
11-21-2002, 03:37 PM
Maybe in balancing the force, he will eliminate most of the Jedi's. The unbalanced equation could be from the 500 Jedi who are running around and 2 Sith.

Mandalorian Candidat
11-21-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

However, this is GL's story, and as such, he painted himself into a corner by putting this so-called age-limit on Jedi Training in the first place. Who's to say that 12 years old is too old? Well, George did, and he didn't have to. But he did and that required him to create some elaborate plot devices to

A) get him noticed, and
B) get him off the planet.

In regards to "A", GL used the Midichlorians :rolleyes: and this "prophecy of the One."

In regards to "B", he concocted a Rube Goldberg-ian setup with the Podrace to both "prove" that he had Force potential and also get Ani free and off the planet.

All that just because he was "too old" to begin the training.

So anyway, back to the prophecy. In the interest of full disclosure, my prejudices run against "ancient prophecies" and the like. To me they're just really weak plot devices for any genre to help explain why something is happening without having an actual reason for it. It's kind of like saying that somebody is evil just for the sake of being evil. Okay, but there isn't a whole lot of depth there. In most cases, the audience wants to know why somebody is doing what they're doing. Why did the butler do it, etc etc etc? So just laying out this "Anakin's the One described by the prophecy" is just BS writing as far as I'm concerned. It's a weak shortcut that got Anakin into the Jedi Order that will never be explained.


PS, the "Virgin Birth." Yeah, the way I see it, he was trying to get cute with the Jesus parallels. That's the gist of it. It was goofy and ridiculous and quite unnecessary.

Yeah, he did sort of not give himself enough slack. It seems like some of the writing he's done in trying to connect the OT with the PT is a little goofy. My feeble attempt to further justify the whole 'age vs. chosen one' issue would be the following parallel:

1)Yoda tells OB1 in ESB that Luke is too old to be trained as a Jedi.
2)Yoda and Mace tell Qui-Gon that Ani is too old to be trained.
3)Luke shows great fear and doubt during his training.
4)Yoda senses much fear in Ani.
5)Ani turns to the dark side.
6)Luke, being Ani's son is also powerful and possibly has the same potential to turn evil.

OK, because 1 happened, GLu tried to tie in the age limit thing to the PT to have some kind of continuity and thus we have 2. 3 is mirrored with 4 and the same with 5 and 6.

GLu probably felt that he needed to write in both plot devices; the chosen one prophecy to get the council behind accepting Anakin and the age thing to get the seed planted that Ani has a bigger potential of going rotten because he's missed a hypothetical critical age where Jedi younglings are conditioned to minimize, ignore, or better control their fear and anger. (OK, this last little bit is my theory to justify what GLu did with the age issue). However, the age limit requirement imposed by the council is ignored with Ani because of his potential.

I too hated the midichlorian idea because it quantifies the Force instead of making it to be the less tangible and more spiritual ideal it is made out to be in the OT. I don't have a better idea that could have been used by Qui-Gon to ID Ani's force potential. Possibly a corollary to the prophecy that says the chosen one would be identified by a Jedi in performing a certain feat of skill, but that may come off even lamer than microscopic beings living in your cells.

I guess it goes to show that even good storytellers have problems sometimes, but that's why you always have someone legitimately criticize your work to keep you honest.

2-1B
11-22-2002, 01:09 AM
Remember, Qui-gon "knew" Ani was force rich BEFORE the midichlorian census.
He sensed something from the Queen's ship, and he was rambling to Shmi about Ani's "special powers."

Concerning the issue of age, George wrote it that so that kids would be free from (ideally) all attachment. The whole thing in TPM is about Ani leaving his mom, and that attachment leads him to leave an assignment in the interest of going to his mother.
And of course from there, he loses her and the pain leads to his quest for power to prevent it again blah blah blah . . .

Of course, Luke is then SOOOOOOOOOO old, it seems hopeless to even bother with him . . . :D

Arrogant Arse
11-22-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Of course, Luke is then SOOOOOOOOOO old, it seems hopeless to even bother with him . . . :D

I think Yoda did not realize that Luke did not have the same attachment to Owen & Beru, that Anakin had to Shmi. They had been killed just before he left with Ben. He wanted to honor his Aunt & Uncle by going with Ben and become a Jedi. (And possibly stop by Toshi Station to pick up some power converters, which Han needed in ESB, but I digress.) Luke even said he had nothing left for him at the homestead. There was no reason for him to stay. At the time Luke thought he was an only child with no family, so why not go? Had Owen & Beru not been killed, then we'd have another story.

stillakid
11-22-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat

I too hated the midichlorian idea because it quantifies the Force instead of making it to be the less tangible and more spiritual ideal it is made out to be in the OT. I don't have a better idea that could have been used by Qui-Gon to ID Ani's force potential. Possibly a corollary to the prophecy that says the chosen one would be identified by a Jedi in performing a certain feat of skill, but that may come off even lamer than microscopic beings living in your cells.


Lucas built the way into the story he wrote, but in his rush to pound it down the throats of children (who of course are too dumb to comprehend subtlety), he missed it.

When Ani rushes in to his workshop to show off 3PO, he realizes that he forgot to put in the eye. He reaches over to the table to get it without really looking at it. As Qui Gon (OB1:rolleyes: ) watches, the part slides across the table into the boy's hand. Just an inch or so. Very subtle movement, but enough for the Jedi to recognize that the boy has something going for him.

This is also in conjunction with the Podrace, which apparently was supposed to show off Ani's Force potential. Instead of using it as a Rube Goldberg mechanism to get them off the planet, the story could have been rearranged so that the Jedi witness the boy racing as they arrive on the planet. Then they could have their conversation about how normal humans can't really do it. Couple that with the 3PO incident and BAM, Qui Gon (OB1) has all the proof he needs. Granted, at this point, he's just another boy with Force potential, but it really didn't need to be anymore than that anyway. Ani being too old is only a big deal because GL made it that way just to be cute with those OT parallels again.


Originally posted by Caesar
[B]Concerning the issue of age, George wrote it that so that kids would be free from (ideally) all attachment. The whole thing in TPM is about Ani leaving his mom, and that attachment leads him to leave an assignment in the interest of going to his mother. And of course from there, he loses her and the pain leads to his quest for power to prevent it again blah blah blah . . .


And that's a good point. As the story is written, I understand what GL was getting at. However, while watching that scene in AOTC, I honestly never understood it. The line in question is this...


And of course from there, he loses her and the pain leads to his quest for power to prevent it again blah blah blah . . .

Prevent it from happening again? :confused: And what was his line when she was dying? Something like "I won't fail you again"? :confused: What the hell was that? She's dead. How can he fail her again? It makes no sense. Fail her at what? And the "stop people from dying" thing. IF the OT Vader had any scenes in which he was working toward that alchemistic goal, maybe I'd get this little outburst from Anakin in AOTC, but he doesn't. "Rambling bi-Polar behavior" is the best description I've come up with for his unjustified tantrum-like outbursts. Blah, blah, blah, is right!

:)

Mandalorian Candidat
11-22-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Prevent it from happening again? :confused: And what was his line when she was dying? Something like "I won't fail you again"? :confused: What the hell was that? She's dead. How can he fail her again? It makes no sense. Fail her at what? And the "stop people from dying" thing. IF the OT Vader had any scenes in which he was working toward that alchemistic goal, maybe I'd get this little outburst from Anakin in AOTC, but he doesn't. "Rambling bi-Polar behavior" is the best description I've come up with for his unjustified tantrum-like outbursts. Blah, blah, blah, is right!

:)

Yeah, what was that all about? "Someday I'll be so powerful I'll keep people from dying." More like, "Someday my tantrums will be so annoying I'll keep people from going to see Episode 3." The dialogue from the OT sounds like Shakespeare compared to some of the things popping out of Anakin's mouth. This is why Lucas, who is a decent writer IMO, needs an objective critic as a devil's advocate for some of his ideas and not just a yes man like Jonathan Hale.

Geez, stillakid. You got me all riled up now! ;) Just pass the valium and I'll be OK.

2-1B
11-22-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
And that's a good point. As the story is written, I understand what GL was getting at. However, while watching that scene in AOTC, I honestly never understood it. The line in question is this...



Prevent it from happening again? :confused: And what was his line when she was dying? Something like "I won't fail you again"? :confused: What the hell was that? She's dead. How can he fail her again? It makes no sense. Fail her at what? And the "stop people from dying" thing. IF the OT Vader had any scenes in which he was working toward that alchemistic goal, maybe I'd get this little outburst from Anakin in AOTC, but he doesn't. "Rambling bi-Polar behavior" is the best description I've come up with for his unjustified tantrum-like outbursts. Blah, blah, blah, is right!

:)


It makes sense to me. :)

If one has any belief in an afterlife, then a person is not truly gone. My mom's still alive, but if I'm here when she dies, I'll think of her influence on my life as I continue on - and when I make mistakes I might very well feel disappointed. Cliegg spoke of "wherever yoou are, it's become a better place" . . . so that element does exist for these characters.

How can he fail her again? By not living up to his (believed) abilities. He obviously is carrying great guilt with him, and he shouldn't. Either way, he feels he failed her by not saving her.

Bi-polar ? :p Jeez, if someone's mother has just died, I don't think he or she should be expected to behave calmly and rationally. :rolleyes:

OT Vader? That makes no sense to me - here we are talking about a good character who later becomes evil - the OT Vader. That's part of the tragedy, his fall. He turns to evil, and THEN you expect him to be acting on his comments from when he was good, or from before he "died" as Obi-Wan believes? :p

stillakid
11-23-2002, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Caesar



It makes sense to me. :)

If one has any belief in an afterlife, then a person is not truly gone. My mom's still alive, but if I'm here when she dies, I'll think of her influence on my life as I continue on - and when I make mistakes I might very well feel disappointed. Cliegg spoke of "wherever yoou are, it's become a better place" . . . so that element does exist for these characters.

How can he fail her again? By not living up to his (believed) abilities. He obviously is carrying great guilt with him, and he shouldn't. Either way, he feels he failed her by not saving her.

Bi-polar ? :p Jeez, if someone's mother has just died, I don't think he or she should be expected to behave calmly and rationally. :rolleyes:

OT Vader? That makes no sense to me - here we are talking about a good character who later becomes evil - the OT Vader. That's part of the tragedy, his fall. He turns to evil, and THEN you expect him to be acting on his comments from when he was good, or from before he "died" as Obi-Wan believes? :p

I guess that's the heart of my question. What are his own perceived abilities that he failed to use to save her? I mean, he came as soon as he "felt" that she was in trouble? Realistically, what more could he do? I still don't get it.

And yeah, I do expect a character to act on his words that he speaks earlier in a story (any story). Otherwise, what's the point of having the character say them? So if teenage Anakin says "I want to stop people from dying" early on in his character arc, then I expect that to be one of his goals that he works toward as the story nears the climax.

Now, as I write this, I realize that you could go out on a limb and say that "well, he saved Luke from dying. He saved Luke's life and his soul." I might buy that, except that I really don't think that's what teenage Anakin was getting at as he was throwing his tantrum on Tatooine. I think he really wanted to develop some kind of super-power to bring back the dead (another Jesus parallel). But since I already know how the story ends and know where Anakin's character arc winds up, I know that this character is not working toward developing a magical ability to resurrect the dead. This leaves me with the only other evaluation of teenage Anakin's state of mind which is Bi-polar and irrational.

But, that's not to say that this behavior works against the story. Anakin clearly has self-esteem issues and Palpatine picks up on it then uses it to stroke his ego as he begins to seduce the young Jedi to the dark side. But it's the details along the way that I think could have been written better to justify what Lucas is trying to get at.

2-1B
11-23-2002, 11:56 AM
See, I think you're right -

I mean, he came as soon as he "felt" that she was in trouble? Realistically, what more could he do? I still don't get it.
I agree with you completely there, and if he was being realistic, he would realize there was only so much he could do.

As far as failing her, it's because he didn't make it there in time. He should have gone sooner, should have been quicker, shoulda this, shoulda that. :D

Okay, I see where you're going with the "Jesus resurrection parallel" - I guess we just have a different POV there.
I took his words to mean that he wanted to keep people from dying in the sense that he couldn't stop his mother from dying. And wouldn't let that happen again.

I think it flares up when Padme falls out of that gunship - here he is faced with his desire to save her, but it can't be a priority as Obi-Wan points out . . .






Of course, it makes me laugh when I think of Vader crushing the throat of the Blockade Runner officer. Way to go there with your plan of saving people, guy !:D

chewie
11-29-2002, 06:14 PM
I found the Anakin comment of keeping people from dying more of an ironic statement. Seeing as how he just slaughtered a bunch of semi-human Tusken Raiders and goes on to become one of the most ruthless, murderous men the universe has known. Perhaps it was Anakin's intent to create some sort of immortality machine/force power, but as time went on, his dream died along with everything else. The death of dreams, no matter how improbable they may be when spoken aloud, happens to quite a few people during their lifetimes. However.... A machine was made to keep Anakin alive after he was supposed to die. Perhaps Vader's blueprint designs are the fruition of Anakin's dream.

I do find it odd that Anakin would be all sad over his mother's death, and that he would want to keep people alive indefinitely. In his universe, there is quite a bit of tangible afterlife evidence. I'm guessing Anakin never heard Yoda's speech about everybody being luminous beings stuck in some crude matter. Yoda's words can definitely be backed up by the very force powers he and Anakin use. Had Anakin known this, he probably would not have been worried at all about his mom and known she actually was living in a much better place in their universe.

stillakid
11-29-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by chewie
I'm guessing Anakin never heard Yoda's speech about everybody being luminous beings stuck in some crude matter.

How could he have? In the new re-imagining of the Star Wars tale, Obi Wan never gets taught by Yoda, so he never learns it himself to teach to Anakin. :rolleyes:

But I like your idea about Vader's uniform being the anti-death machine. I suppose if we stretch our rationalization muscles some more as the Prequels are asking us to do, this could be reasoned out. Except that in the OT there is never any mention of it being the fruition of his stated desire to "keep people from dying." I'll stick with my own interpretation that I wrote above. :)

THE Slayer
12-08-2002, 03:51 PM
Obviously Anakin is little askew. His lines IMO come from human nature, that would be a natural response after his mom dies, we all have it. We just never vocalize it as so. SW, all the movies, are full of those internal diologues people have, just spoken.
"I turely deeply love you" you might think it, but how many people ever say it.

Back to the prophecy of one for a sec. I want to know who wrote it and why the jedi believe it. Jedi know, Yoda especially, that the future is too hard to see. So why do they believe it?

stillakid
12-08-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by THE Slayer
Obviously Anakin is little askew. His lines IMO come from human nature, that would be a natural response after his mom dies, we all have it. We just never vocalize it as so. SW, all the movies, are full of those internal diologues people have, just spoken.
"I turely deeply love you" you might think it, but how many people ever say it.

Yes, but in works of fiction, time is limited, so typically authors are cognizant of economy and use only the words necessary to tell the story. Extraneous thoughts that have no true bearing on the story at hand get left out.

For instance, if you were to write a simple romantic comedy and introduce a gun in the first act, the reader has a logical expectation that the weapon will be utilized somewhere down the road, most likely in the third act as the "problem" is being resolved. However, if you just introduce it then never revisit the thing again, then what's the point in bringing it up in the first place?

Same exact thing here. Anakin spouting out emotions and "promises" (I will even stop people from dying!, I won't fail you again!) that are meaningless (as we already know because we've already seen the end of the Saga) is just bad writing.


Originally posted by THE Slayer

Back to the prophecy of one for a sec. I want to know who wrote it and why the jedi believe it. Jedi know, Yoda especially, that the future is too hard to see. So why do they believe it?

It would be nice to know that. Hopefully Episode III will clear up some of this stuff. How many days until it's released now?

QLD
12-10-2002, 01:35 AM
Maybe Yoda should go to the Oracle and find out if he is the one.

And NO George, that isn't an invitation for you to DO that!

evenflow
12-10-2002, 06:59 AM
I always looked at the balance thing as Anakin bringing the dark side back into the picture where there was only good, and that his son would once again return that balance to good. Make any sense? it sounds better in my head.

Wookiee
12-10-2002, 09:23 AM
Ok maybe I should file this post along with the long list of arm-chair directors and writers rantings on how they'd make the movies better if they had the chance, but the whole Midiclorian thing and the Prophecy thing didn't make sense to me either and when you realize that they were just plot devices to get Anakin off of Tatooine and into the picture, then you see where GL was getting at with them.

I still don't buy it though. No one likes the Midiclorian thing. I might go as far to say that no one doesn't hate the Midiclorian thing. But we needed a reason for Anakin to get noticed. How about have him do something that would make him get noticed? Like saving Qui Gonn's life or reading peoples minds at age 8 or lifting starships or some impossible task, Something really stupifying that could not be overlooked. There wasn't anything all that remarkable about Anakin other than his pod-racing abilities, which came off seeming like a kid who was just really good at video games. (What 8-year old isn't?) And I never really got the feeling that Anakin used the force in anyway during the race.

TPM should have had Anakin doing things that could only be attributed to the force, things neither he or anyone else could explain. The remote-ness of the planet and Watto's greed and stupidity could be the explaination of why Anakin was never discovered previously.

I was disappointed the AOTC had no references to the Prophecy of the One, and I bet we won't hear much about it in III. I'd have liked to have seen more power coming from Anakin. I still haven't got the feeling that he's the most powerful Jedi ever, maybe he will become so in III, but why make us wait? He should have been doing stuff that shocked Yoda and Mace, he should be crackling with the power of the Force, to the point that people are even afraid of him as a child and teenager because he doesn't know his own strength and he might accidentally unleash his powers without meaning to. To the point where he's afraid of himself and need answers as to who he is.

mrmiller
12-11-2002, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Wookiee
I'd have liked to have seen more power coming from Anakin. I still haven't got the feeling that he's the most powerful Jedi ever, maybe he will become so in III, but why make us wait? He should have been doing stuff that shocked Yoda and Mace, he should be crackling with the power of the Force, to the point that people are even afraid of him as a child and teenager because he doesn't know his own strength and he might accidentally unleash his powers without meaning to. To the point where he's afraid of himself and need answers as to who he is.

Maybe that's we get the "He's holding me back" thing. Maybe Obi Wan IS holding him back because of his power and attitude. I'd still like to have seen more of his power too.'

=MATT=

stillakid
12-11-2002, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Wookiee
Ok maybe I should file this post along with the long list of arm-chair directors and writers rantings on how they'd make the movies better if they had the chance, but the whole Midiclorian thing and the Prophecy thing didn't make sense to me either and when you realize that they were just plot devices to get Anakin off of Tatooine and into the picture, then you see where GL was getting at with them.

I still don't buy it though. No one likes the Midiclorian thing. I might go as far to say that no one doesn't hate the Midiclorian thing. But we needed a reason for Anakin to get noticed. How about have him do something that would make him get noticed? Like saving Qui Gonn's life or reading peoples minds at age 8 or lifting starships or some impossible task, Something really stupifying that could not be overlooked. There wasn't anything all that remarkable about Anakin other than his pod-racing abilities, which came off seeming like a kid who was just really good at video games. (What 8-year old isn't?) And I never really got the feeling that Anakin used the force in anyway during the race.

TPM should have had Anakin doing things that could only be attributed to the force, things neither he or anyone else could explain. The remote-ness of the planet and Watto's greed and stupidity could be the explaination of why Anakin was never discovered previously.

I was disappointed the AOTC had no references to the Prophecy of the One, and I bet we won't hear much about it in III. I'd have liked to have seen more power coming from Anakin. I still haven't got the feeling that he's the most powerful Jedi ever, maybe he will become so in III, but why make us wait? He should have been doing stuff that shocked Yoda and Mace, he should be crackling with the power of the Force, to the point that people are even afraid of him as a child and teenager because he doesn't know his own strength and he might accidentally unleash his powers without meaning to. To the point where he's afraid of himself and need answers as to who he is.

100% correct. Every single word.

Wookiee
12-11-2002, 12:28 PM
thanks, Stillakid. I find myself in agreement with the stuff you're saying in this thread too.

I have to say I do love these "coulda-shoulda" discussions.

I for one haven't been too satisfied with the development of Anakin's character throughout the prequels. And I usually find myself going back to the start in TPM. In a word, young Anakin should have been Creepy, not Cute.

Delving further into the subject of things I have no say in and it doesn't matter anyway, I think the casting for Anakin has been a bit off. Jake Lloyd is a very cute kid, but as I said, Anakin should have been a creepy little weirdo who had strange powers that people were afraid of. And I really liked Hayden C. in "Life as a House" If you haven't seen it yet, check it out and it will make you like him a lot more. But he came off as just kinda bratty rather than deeply and profoundly troubled as I would have liked to see.

Not that they'd work as Anakin but look at Elijah Woods as "Frodo," or even Daniel Radcliff as "Harry Potter." both talented young actors who instill their characters with a gravity of mind that allows them to be extremely likable, yet gives you the impression that there is something very severe weighing on them. I would have liked to have had an actor give Anakin this kind of presence.

(can't wait till 2-Towers!)

stillakid
12-11-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Wookiee
thanks, Stillakid. I find myself in agreement with the stuff you're saying in this thread too.

I have to say I do love these "coulda-shoulda" discussions.

I for one haven't been too satisfied with the development of Anakin's character throughout the prequels. And I usually find myself going back to the start in TPM. In a word, young Anakin should have been Creepy, not Cute.

Delving further into the subject of things I have no say in and it doesn't matter anyway, I think the casting for Anakin has been a bit off. Jake Lloyd is a very cute kid, but as I said, Anakin should have been a creepy little weirdo who had strange powers that people were afraid of. And I really liked Hayden C. in "Life as a House" If you haven't seen it yet, check it out and it will make you like him a lot more. But he came off as just kinda bratty rather than deeply and profoundly troubled as I would have liked to see.

Not that they'd work as Anakin but look at Elijah Woods as "Frodo," or even Daniel Radcliff as "Harry Potter." both talented young actors who instill their characters with a gravity of mind that allows them to be extremely likable, yet gives you the impression that there is something very severe weighing on them. I would have liked to have had an actor give Anakin this kind of presence.

(can't wait till 2-Towers!)

You must have missed some of my previous performances:

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=201944#post201944

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=107480#post107480

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=107694#post107694

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=107711#post107711

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=107763#post107763

There are a lot more, in older and still hot-to-the-touch threads.

For a long time now, I've been swimming upstream in a river of fandom, champion of the story-well-told. It's been a difficult struggle, personally challenging at times, enlightening at others. But with Episode's I and II fading into DVD memory, much of the "discussion" has tempered to a low flame and many of the patriots of George's Army have drifted to other pursuits.

Boy, I coulda used your help then... ;)

Wookiee
12-11-2002, 03:02 PM
good stuff, to be sure. I'm always lurking around somewhere, but I don't always have my finger on the button. I'll try to stick around more so I don't miss out.

Here's a thought- I'm starting to wonder if Lucas was so hot on squeezing out 3 more films/franchises/action figure waves, if he might have been wiser to do Episodes VII, VIII, and IX. I don't think that these 3 were any more or less developed in his mind than the Prequels were until about 5 years ago. Doing Prequels presents the unique challenge of making things line up with the original storyline. And unless you already had all the details worked out before you started filming any of the Star Wars movies, you're going to have a rough time with the continuity. If you just follow the story chronologically, you can make it up as you go along, even change your mind, with less danger of a major continuity goof.

For example, maybe Lucas wasn't sure if Luke and Leah were going to be siblings when he did ANH and ESB. But imagine if he had done ROTJ first- then ANH and ESB would be riddled with hammy allusions to their unknown relationship, or worse yet, it would be a 1000 pound gorrilla hanging over the head of the audience just waiting to have it mentioned.

That's an inhierant problem with a prequel. More expectations from the audience. When I was watching TPM, I cheered when 3PO and R2 met for the first time. Then I quickly became dissallusioned as they didn't seem to spend much time together and there very few scenes between them and almost no witty banter between them. I was expecting more of what I already knew. which is my own fault, but with a new story line that you don't know the future of, you can just ride with it.

So I wonder what new paths we might have gone done had Lucas chosen 7,8, and 9 instead of seaching for a half-eaten trail of breadcrumbs behind us?

Jedi Clint
12-11-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Arrogant Arse
I have a question, and or random thought, that may be really out there (No drugs were involved in creating this topic) .

In TPM and AOTC, the Jedi refer to the Prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force. They assume it is Anakin. The question/Random thought is this: Does Anakin's mere existance bring balance to the force, or does it happen in another way?
(okay this is where it goes wacko) As I see it, by being the father of Luke and Leia, those two balance the force out: Man/Woman, compassionate warrior/Strong leader, etc.
Anakin brings balance by fathering the (admittedly EU) Re-Founder of the Jedi, and Re-Founder of the republic.

Also in the EU, it is said that Luke uses both Light and Dark Side powers at points during his career as a Jedi. That would lead me to think that Luke can keep each side in check, and "balances the force"

That's my thought. Any Ideas?



(And yes, I am using valuable company time to post this, why do you ask?)

Sad to see yet another thread hi-jacked by complaints about the PT.

To address your post AA (the intended subject matter of this topic):

It is my understanding that Anakin brings balance to the force as an individual by killing Palpatine in ROTJ. Palpatine had destroyed the natural harmonic balance in the force by throwing the galaxy into turmoil. Others insist that it has to do with the number of Jedi and Sith that exist at any one point in time. I don't buy into that though.

stillakid
12-11-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Sad to see yet another thread hi-jacked by complaints about the PT.

I believe that it is an inevitable train of thought for any question regarding story elements in the Prequels, as evidenced by your own post...


Originally posted by Jedi Clint

To address your post AA (the intended subject matter of this topic):

It is my understanding that Anakin brings balance to the force as an individual by killing Palpatine in ROTJ. Palpatine had destroyed the natural harmonic balance in the force by throwing the galaxy into turmoil. Others insist that it has to do with the number of Jedi and Sith that exist at any one point in time. I don't buy into that though.

Everyone can toss in their own conjecture (because that's all that we really have) and then the thread can either die, or continue on it's natural course as people discuss the other problems or good things that come out of said topic.

So while it may be highjacking, it's all relevant in the end. Sometimes you have to go outside the lines a bit in order to gain a better understanding of the issue at hand. Not a one of these topics in any of the threads here at SSG exists in a vaccuum, so discussing other elements to help discuss the "thread topic" is, at times, necessary.

Jedi Clint
12-11-2002, 08:31 PM
I attempted to answer the the question posed in the initial post of this thread. Notice how I didn't start rambling about how good or bad I thought the prequels were? The explanation I offered AA required interpretation on my part. Is it bad that we are required to interpret meaning in the art that we observe, or should that meaning be spoon-fed to us?

Such opinions might be relevant in regards to the prequels as a whole, but they amount to extraneous comments given the specific nature of this topic. Similar comments are being left in numerous topics across the boards. Do they all require a lengthy explanation of ones opinion of the parent subject? Was it required that you goad those that feel opposite you by labeling them "patriots" or any other name that degrades their expression of the enjoyment that you can't seem to find in the PT?

stillakid
12-11-2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
"patriots" or any other name that degrades their expression of the enjoyment that you can't seem to find in the PT?

Patriot is a degrading term?

So I guess what you're asking is that we stick to the questions at hand (whatever the case may be) and refrain from drawing conclusions concerning how said topic/answer/conjecture/solution might affect the saga as a whole or collecting or what have you?

In other words, a simple "yes" or "no" will do?

Jedi Clint
12-11-2002, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Patriot is a degrading term?

So I guess what you're asking is that we stick to the questions at hand (whatever the case may be) and refrain from drawing conclusions concerning how said topic/answer/conjecture/solution might affect the saga as a whole or collecting or what have you?

In other words, a simple "yes" or "no" will do?

Did I say any of the things you just posted? No. I wasn't giving you orders. Sticking to the subject matter is important, but often people stray....that's fine. My comment was actually directed more toward spreading the same discussion across multiple threads. There exists general prequel discussion threads:

Forum user AOTC reviews
Now that you've seen it a few times

Those topics are asking for one's overall opinion of all of the elements comprising either one of the prequel films, or the prequels as a whole.

Did I use a simple yes or no in response to the initial post? No.

You labled a group of people that have the opposite opinion of your own as a "patriot of George's army" - First I didn't know that Lucas had a contractual agreement with those who enjoy certain aspects of the prequels that you do not. A patriot is one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests. If we insert George into the equation, you have basically accused anyone who disagrees with your opinions of A) loving Lucas and B) supporting his authority and interest. I sincerely doubt that both of those circumstances are true when applied to anyone who disagrees with you. You degrade those people and their opinions by labeling them innaccurately. I asked whether you thought that lable or any other lable was necessary. Is it?

stillakid
12-12-2002, 11:43 AM
Geez, I didn't mean to get you all in a lather about this.

Um, regarding:

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Did I say any of the things you just posted? No. I wasn't giving you orders. Sticking to the subject matter is important, but often people stray....that's fine. My comment was actually directed more toward spreading the same discussion across multiple threads. There exists general prequel discussion threads:

Forum user AOTC reviews
Now that you've seen it a few times

Those topics are asking for one's overall opinion of all of the elements comprising either one of the prequel films, or the prequels as a whole.

Did I use a simple yes or no in response to the initial post? No.

No, really, I get what you're saying, but at times, it's valuable to "stray" from the topic specifics to see the issue in question as it relates to the greater story as a whole. And, because "art" is often a subjective enterprise, our personal interpretations of said events and/or the bigger picture becomes a vitally important element of the discussion. Why? Because when we offer insight into our general feelings as a whole, it gives the reader a foundation to build from when trying to decide whether to believe us or not. In other words, because of various "degrading" posts I'm made concerning the Prequels, you already know that my opinions will be tainted with that point of view. But you only know that because I don't just give rote answers. But you should also know from my numerous posts, that I don't just speak off the cuff. I take the time to form opinions based on precedent from the saga itself and from writing guidelines in general. So, there is a lot to gain from straying outside the lines, I feel.

For a truly excellent example of what I'm talking about, revisit some of Errol Morris (http://www.errolmorris.com/biography.php) 's documentaries. The Thin Blue Line (http://www.documentaryfilms.net/Reviews/ThinBlueLine) is a great one. His style departs from the standard "talking head gives necessary sound bite" method. Instead, he allows the subjects to essentially, ramble on. And he leaves that extra footage in the film itself. The end result is that the audience gets a revealing look at the people they're listening to, as opposed to just taking the filmmakers word for it that these are credible sources. Check it out! It freed a man from prison.



Originally posted by Jedi Clint

You labled a group of people that have the opposite opinion of your own as a "patriot of George's army" - First I didn't know that Lucas had a contractual agreement with those who enjoy certain aspects of the prequels that you do not. A patriot is one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests. If we insert George into the equation, you have basically accused anyone who disagrees with your opinions of A) loving Lucas and B) supporting his authority and interest. I sincerely doubt that both of those circumstances are true when applied to anyone who disagrees with you. You degrade those people and their opinions by labeling them innaccurately. I asked whether you thought that lable or any other lable was necessary. Is it?

I didn't know you had to have a contract with anybody to be a "patriot?" So I'm not sure where that line of argument came from. Wanna try another?

Although I dispute your use of the word "accuse" in the statement, yes, essentially you're correct. If you enjoy the Prequels totally, with disregard to the numerous issues brought up by numerous critics and fans alike, then I believe that it would be fair to say that A) you probably love Lucas and B) you support his authority (in regards to his story) and interest (in the same). I'm missing your point. Using "accuse" denotes a connotation of degradation, one that you alone placed on the statement. You chose to interpret the statement in a particular manner. I can't be held responsible for that. Sorry.

Now, can we talk about the Prophecy of the One some more and how it just might relate to the rest of the saga, or has the topic been exhausted?

Jedi Clint
12-12-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Geez, I didn't mean to get you all in a lather about this.

Um, regarding:


No, really, I get what you're saying, but at times, it's valuable to "stray" from the topic specifics to see the issue in question as it relates to the greater story as a whole. And, because "art" is often a subjective enterprise, our personal interpretations of said events and/or the bigger picture becomes a vitally important element of the discussion. Why? Because when we offer insight into our general feelings as a whole, it gives the reader a foundation to build from when trying to decide whether to believe us or not. In other words, because of various "degrading" posts I'm made concerning the Prequels, you already know that my opinions will be tainted with that point of view. But you only know that because I don't just give rote answers. But you should also know from my numerous posts, that I don't just speak off the cuff. I take the time to form opinions based on precedent from the saga itself and from writing guidelines in general. So, there is a lot to gain from straying outside the lines, I feel.

For a truly excellent example of what I'm talking about, revisit some of Errol Morris (http://www.errolmorris.com/biography.php) 's documentaries. The Thin Blue Line (http://www.documentaryfilms.net/Reviews/ThinBlueLine) is a great one. His style departs from the standard "talking head gives necessary sound bite" method. Instead, he allows the subjects to essentially, ramble on. And he leaves that extra footage in the film itself. The end result is that the audience gets a revealing look at the people they're listening to, as opposed to just taking the filmmakers word for it that these are credible sources. Check it out! It freed a man from prison.




I didn't know you had to have a contract with anybody to be a "patriot?" So I'm not sure where that line of argument came from. Wanna try another?

Although I dispute your use of the word "accuse" in the statement, yes, essentially you're correct. If you enjoy the Prequels totally, with disregard to the numerous issues brought up by numerous critics and fans alike, then I believe that it would be fair to say that A) you probably love Lucas and B) you support his authority (in regards to his story) and interest (in the same). I'm missing your point. Using "accuse" denotes a connotation of degradation, one that you alone placed on the statement. You chose to interpret the statement in a particular manner. I can't be held responsible for that. Sorry.

Now, can we talk about the Prophecy of the One some more and how it just might relate to the rest of the saga, or has the topic been exhausted?

If you will notice, I commented upon your entire "patriot of George's army" label. Belonging to one's army implies a contractual agreement last I checked. "Wanna try another?"

You dispute my use of the word "accuse". So, you aren't charging those that disagree with you with a fault or offense? It certainly seems so. Those who disagree with your opinions don't all love Lucas and they don't all support his authority and interest.

stillakid
12-14-2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
If you will notice, I commented upon your entire "patriot of George's army" label. Belonging to one's army implies a contractual agreement last I checked. "Wanna try another?"

You dispute my use of the word "accuse". So, you aren't charging those that disagree with you with a fault or offense? It certainly seems so. Those who disagree with your opinions don't all love Lucas and they don't all support his authority and interest.


This is waaay off topic. I'd like to continue, however. So, you've got PMail! :)


actually you don't. Inbox full. You've got Email! :)

tgr3328
12-19-2002, 12:56 PM
From what I remember of the discussion on SSG around the time of EP1's release the complaints weren't about the chosen one prophecy, it was more of the whole 'virgin birth' thing. That part bothered me somewhat, but I just chalked it up to G.Lu. trying force some kind of mysticism into the plot.

My theory that the apparent "virgin birth" is false and that Anakin's father is Palpatine himself! In the EU, Palpatine traveled the galaxy and studied old Sith teachings. He may have also consorted secretly with underworld types like the Hutts. Perhaps he fathered anakin during a visit to Tatooine where Shmi Skywalker was a slave. He could have used his Sith powers to make her forget. He may have thought that the hard life of a slave would make the boy bitter and angry--a perfect candidate for Sith training. Perhaps he even fathered many childern hoping that some, at least, would grow up to be Sith Lords just like their father.

GL like to draw parallels in his films. Can't you just picture a confrontation in EP III btween Anakin and Palpatine where the Emperor tells him, "Anakin! I am your father!". Except in this case, the young Jedi gives in the the Dark Side.