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Obi-Wan-A-Bi
11-23-2002, 03:01 AM
In ESB luke asked yoda "Is the dark side stronger" and yoda replied "no".

Now, while watching EPII and listening to the audio commentary Lucas says that Dooku has sith powers and that sith powers are more powerful than jedi powers.

So what's going on? Did Lucas change his mind?

mini-rock
12-13-2002, 01:13 PM
I can't speak for GL, and 'm not sure what he was trying to get at, but so far it seems to me what Yoda says in ESB is more true. Otherwise Dooku would have won the battle with Yoda.

Of course there IS that Sith being able to cloud the Jedi's vision thing. Hmmm, have to go think about that one.

Jedi Clint
12-13-2002, 01:29 PM
If Yoda would have told Luke "Yeah......they are." in response to his question of whether the dark side was more powerful, do you think he would have had the confidence to confront Vader and his Emperor?

QLD
12-13-2002, 04:03 PM
Maybe physically the darkside is more powerful, but the lightside is more powerful spiritually. Which would even them out I suppose, so then, the darkside would not be more powerful.

JediTricks
12-13-2002, 05:41 PM
I noticed it too when listening to the audio commentary and it really bothered me. Since ESB wasn't written by Lucas, I guess Lucas could say that it was always his intention to have the dark side be stronger. Personally, Lucas says "laser sword" so much that I really have no faith in his Star Wars accuracy anymore. :D ;)

I am chalking this one up to either one of two things. Either:
A) Lucas misspoke and meant "quicker, easier, more seductive";
-or-
B) Lucas' views on spirituality have changed in the past 25 years and he now sees things differently.

mini-rock
12-14-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
If Yoda would have told Luke "Yeah......they are." in response to his question of whether the dark side was more powerful, do you think he would have had the confidence to confront Vader and his Emperor?

I thought the same thing after I had post, and think Yoda said no so Luke wouldn't be overwhelmed.

Jedi Learner
12-14-2002, 03:24 PM
I think it's important to define what we mean here. Are we trying to argue that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light, or merely that Sith powers as they are used in battle are stronger than those of the Jedi? There is a definite difference in my mind.

plo koon 200
12-14-2002, 08:55 PM
I believe George means they offer more. George goes on to state that Anakin's main reason for going on to the dark side is for greed such as being greedy to bring back what shouldn't such as the dead. Basically George is saying the dark side offers more when more is not needed. It is kind of like LOTR and its view on greed such as Gollum and the One Ring but in the end good ends up being better than evil even though it offers less it is not fueled by greed.

stillakid
12-14-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I noticed it too when listening to the audio commentary and it really bothered me. Since ESB wasn't written by Lucas, I guess Lucas could say that it was always his intention to have the dark side be stronger. Personally, Lucas says "laser sword" so much that I really have no faith in his Star Wars accuracy anymore. :D ;)

I am chalking this one up to either one of two things. Either:
A) Lucas misspoke and meant "quicker, easier, more seductive";
-or-
B) Lucas' views on spirituality have changed in the past 25 years and he now sees things differently.

I think JT's right on the money here.

I can't buy that "overwhelmed" thing. "Interpreting" Yoda's ESB lessons that way somehow seems to cheapen our understanding of the Force and his overall wisdom. Yoda's speech to Luke about the Force remains one of the cornerstones of what made that film so good itself as well as what gave the Saga as a whole the depth that caused so many fans to continue loving it so many years after it left theaters.

The ESB Yoda meant what he said. No "point of view's", no trying to give Luke confidence. He told it like it was and told Luke everything he needed to know. That was summed up by the closing lines of that scene when Luke says, "I don't believe it." Only a truly honest teacher, who isn't trying to massage the fragile nature of a new student, would have the courage to then say, "That it why you fail." Blunt...to the point.

mini-rock
12-15-2002, 12:39 AM
Just got done watching ESB, and now I can definitely believe Yoda tried to protect Luke somewhat. Notice how quick Yoda was to answer Luke's question "NO, easier...more seductive.

Either way though I guess it doesn't matter which is more powerful since we know who wins in the end.

otisdodge
12-15-2002, 12:48 AM
Well, I don't know about the audio commentary, but if we're just talking about the movies...
Dooku is prideful--a darkside trait. Of course he thinks he's more powerful--that is why the dark side is seductive.
As to whether the dark side is more powerful in battle? Probably.
[A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. Never attack] Yoda said something like that. If you never attack, you are at a disadvantage in battle.
I think that Lucas is purposely putting some naivete into the prequels. Obviously the Jedi who remain are going to learn some important lessons about themselves, the force, the dark side... during the thirty or so years that we're seeing here.
I personally think that the force is too "scientific" in the prequels and that Yoda and Obi-Wan learn to be more spiritual in the interim.
Bottom line--I don't think the dark is more powerful, but some aspects are stronger than the light as the Republic Jedi understand it, and especially from the prideful viewpoint of the Sith.
I think Yoda could have taken Palpatine at any time, but the Force forbade him, as it was not the way things needed to happen.
Read Traitor. In it, a former Republic Jedi teaches Jacen Solo that there is no dark or light side of the Force--there are only the choices we make. If you use the Force for good you are a Jedi. If you choose to do evil...

stillakid
12-15-2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Just got done watching ESB, and now I can definitely believe Yoda tried to protect Luke somewhat. Notice how quick Yoda was to answer Luke's question "NO, easier...more seductive.

Either way though I guess it doesn't matter which is more powerful since we know who wins in the end.

Well, yes, he did try to protect him, but I don't think that it was in the manipulative manner that was previously suggested. Yoda saying "No, easier, more seductive" is definitely a statement to protect Luke...from going down the "easier more seductive" dark path. They make it clear that Luke is at that critical juncture in the training where he might not be able to discern the harm in "using the Force for attack" and such.

At that point, Yoda and Spirit Ben didn't foresee Luke leaving training early either...especially to go fight Vader. When that happens, the desperation in Spirit Ben and Yoda is painfully obvious. "DON'T give in to hatred..." Ben implores. As Yoda tells us in ROTJ, he didn't expect Vader to reveal the secret, but by Ben's tension in ESB, we could surmise that he might have.

The thing that makes the Dark Side more powerful is that it is quicker, easier and more seductive. The "more powerful" part of that is in the shortcut it offers the trainee...generally a shortcut at a time when the student isn't interested in too many of the lofty spiritual ideals that Jedi Force training entails. The tangible power of the Force itself remains constant no matter whether it's used for Good or Evil. It's just a "force." Like a gun, the object has absolutely no power until picked up by a human being. A rash young user of the weapon will believe himself to be "all powerful" as he indiscriminitely guns down his neighborhood gang rivals. But a wiser, better trained "gunman" respects the weapon's power and is more likely to utilize it for the greater good.

Chiesa
12-16-2002, 03:19 AM
I believe that both the Jedi and Sith are equal in power. The force as stillaKid has said that it is used as a weapon and tool. The force is everywhere and to be used by the user as he/she sees fit. The Jedi uses the force for defense while the Sith is probably the more aggressive user of the force for more aggressive purposes.

Darth Evil
12-16-2002, 01:42 PM
I too believe that the two sides of the Force are equal in power. The Dark Side is far easier and more aggressive, but it ruins the user's body, as evidenced by Palpatine in ROTJ. The Light Side more difficult and more defensive, but when mastered prolongs the user's life, as evidenced by Yoda. The slow destruction of the user's body is the price they pay for using the Dark Side.

TheDarthVader
12-22-2002, 10:07 PM
Let's say the dark side is more powerful. That does not mean that the light side can not defend against it as evident in AOTC when Yoda counters Dooku's lightning. Remember, Luke says, "Vader...is the Dark side stronger?" He was more refering that question specifically about Vader. Wasn't he? I don't know if I think that was an "in general" question anyway. Yoda tells him later, "only a fully trained jedi with the force as his ally will conquer Vader. (having a little trouble with that line) ...and once Luke was trained he was stronger than Vader in ROTJ. So what Yoda said was true if he thought Luke was refering to Vader only. Because it is more of a potential thing.

Brian

TheJediCharles
12-23-2002, 10:21 AM
It seems to me that the powers the Sith have are more powerful in battle, but not in whole. The Jedi have the hands of morality tied behind their backs and must conduct themselves, even in battle within rules, while the Sith don't. But, just because the Darkside is easier to use to great advantage does not mean that it is stronger. The Lightside clearly is stronger, only more demanding of one's user, to stay on the straight and narrow.

It's like the old addage that it's easier to destroy than to create, but that doesn't mean it's better.

JediTricks
12-24-2002, 04:09 AM
TDV, I think it was a general question not directly related to Luke's finishing of Yoda's comment about Obi-Wan's apprentice. After the question about the dark side being stronger, he then asks about how he'll know the dark side from the light. Here's the scripted lines:


YODA: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of
the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force
are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you
start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

LUKE: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.