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Tycho
11-29-2002, 01:45 AM
OK, one religious denomination has been stereotyped and used in negative ways throughout most of the political and religious discussions on this site.

I want to start a thread where practicing Satanists can come forward and explain their beliefs, perhaps demonstrate that their are incentives to join their followers, and perhaps different Devil-worshipping sects can discuss thier differences and enlighten us to their rituals.

I myself am very curious. Is there a Book of Satan I can get? What's in there? What will it teach me?

I'm honestly curious and this is not a joke thread or a place to invite religious intolerance or persecution.

Let those of the order speak:

2-1B
11-29-2002, 01:54 AM
I have now officially seen it all at this site.


I've been told that the Devil likes to reside in books about Harry Potter. :p

Beast
11-29-2002, 02:08 AM
Just a small suggestion Tycho. If your really looking for a serious discussion, satanism may not be the topic. Perhaps a thread about wicca instead? There is a bigger chance that sort of thread, may actually become a good thread for discussion. Especially with so-called "satanism" becoming so glamorized in lame movies.

Why I suggest it, is due to the fact that Wicca is one of the most often misunderstood belief systems there is. I know several people that are wiccan, and they are very nice individuals. The stereotypes that exist about them are very very ignorent thinking. Just a few thoughts. Blessed be. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
11-29-2002, 02:12 AM
Ooooooooohhhh, now I am having thoughts about young nubile Wiccans frolicking in nature. :happy:



Seriously though, I am sick and tired of being sterotyped as a goat sacrificer. :mad:
Um, that really gets my goat !

When the Master calls, we know which animal has to go . . . :evil:

Tycho
11-29-2002, 02:26 AM
Hey Ceaser, what do you have against Giraffes?

That one looks like the nice guy who lets me into one of my favorite stores to get my Star Wars figues!

Meanwhile, back to the issue, sure Wiccans are welcome, too. But please identify yourself with whether you are Wiccan or Satanist.

And why can't we discuss this without jokes? Why aren't you guys taking my curiosity seriously?

wedgeA
11-29-2002, 02:28 AM
While I am not a Satanist by any stretch, from what I have heard about their philosophy is that they are basically extreme humanists, basically believing that humans should freely indulge in their natural impulses, sort of the ultimate moral relativists.
As for literature, there is a Church of Satan (Anton Lefay sp?), but I do not know what type of text they use.

That is about all I know, but I could be completely wrong, so if anyone knows, please chime in.

mabudonicus
11-29-2002, 08:53 AM
Yeah, Anton Levey... the one who supposedly cursed Jayne Mansfield and got her beheaded in a freak accident...
Yeah, all's I konw about it is the credo "self preservation is the highest law/order"... the whole "satan" angle seems to be sort of stressed for PR reasons, to freak out the norms so to speak...
I throw out devil horns like it's going out of style (actually, I think it DID, but who knows...), but I believe that pretty much all characters from all religions are just like other people's "marvel universes"... Satan is kinda like Doctor Doom...
I mean, I guess, I really don't believe in the sort of black-and-white, that guys all good, that guys all evil that most religions associate with their main characters... I listen to a lot of metal, (and the OTHER devil music, great jazz), and would probably be labelled at least as "questionably satanic" by conservative types, but truth is, I sort of don't believe in anything that I haven't seen, felt, experienced or otherwise.....
It seems that religion is viewed by the more devout in the same way as the war on terror is viewed by Bush jr, with us or against us... just cause I don't like the same characters as someone else doesn't mean that A- I want to kill off their favourite titles,
B- I don't think they have the right to like those characters
C- the characters I like are wrong or evil somehow
It's that fundamentalist, black and white mentality that causes a lot of problems..
Ignorance, Intolerance and Stupidity, for the most parts.. the foundations of many "movements" these days...
One thing I can say about "satanists".. at least they don't pretend that they're non judgemental or "filled with love for all God's creations", save for the ones that they fear/misunderstand/hate, which is the hypocrisy from wich much trouble is born...
OK, too olympic, I'm going to watch some sesame park and chill

The Overlord Returns
11-29-2002, 08:55 AM
Try this out Tycho....

www.satanism101.com

might give you a few answers....

sith_killer_99
11-29-2002, 09:45 AM
Anton Lavey started the Church of Satan, he also wrote the Satanists' Bible.

Right before he died he stated that the only reason he did it all was for "the women" and other such nonsense. He was an extreme humanist, as stated earlier. The whole movement was pretty much started by him and in large part, DIED with him. Mailyn Manson (sp?) claimed to have been a minister of the Church of Satan, and ordained by Anton Lavey himself.

We briefly covered the subject when I took a class of Cults and Sects in the United States in college.

The Overlord Returns
11-29-2002, 09:52 AM
You might also want to take a look at Allister Crowley, he is a big name in the world of satanism.

2-1B
11-29-2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by mabudon
I throw out devil horns like it's going out of style (actually, I think it DID, but who knows...)

Maybe it's going out of style, but I'm throwin' you a pair in my sig line right now ! :evil:

Lord Malakite
11-29-2002, 12:35 PM
:rolleyes: Okay. I doubt this thread wil remain open. :p

The Overlord Returns
11-29-2002, 01:07 PM
And why would that be?

Lord Malakite
11-29-2002, 01:35 PM
Threads involving "Religious Beliefs" tend to get nasty often.

The Overlord Returns
11-29-2002, 01:40 PM
something tells me this one isn't going to get too nasty... ;)

Lord Malakite
11-29-2002, 01:43 PM
Try and keep it that way. ;)

derek
11-29-2002, 01:43 PM
if big barada were here, he'd put the smack down.:crazed: anyone heard from him?:)

The Overlord Returns
11-29-2002, 01:47 PM
Yeah, he and dryanta et al left SSg in protest........they're hanging out on nexus forum.

Darth Vellner
11-29-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Maybe it's going out of style, but I'm throwin' you a pair in my sig line right now ! :evil:

To me it looks more like the "Hang Loose" hand sign...:confused:
maybe try it like this...

\n/,

- or -

\w/,

Old Fossil
11-29-2002, 02:35 PM
I read the Satanic Bible years ago. It is basically a guide for living an extremely hedonistic lifestyle, Extreme Epicureanism, if you will.

Such a shallow belief system, based in large measure on the pleasures of the flesh, cannot sustain those who seek a deeper spiritual awareness. While other belief systems do not always provide a satisfying answer to such proverbially troublesome questions as "Why am I here? What is the meaning of life?", Satanism's answers are probably the least satisfying of all.

Tycho
11-29-2002, 03:24 PM
If you enjoy the pleasures of the flesh, and think that the purpose of life is to enjoy it, you don't have to be a Satanist.

It depends how far you take the pleasures of the flesh, and what you think that means in some cases, I'm sure.

If we're talking about sex, either monogomous, or some kind of group alternative, that's one thing.

If it's pain, rape, incest, or you're into torture and homicide (especially with knives and fire,) then it becomes something else.

In some cases, you might be Klingon, but in other cases, people invent or call themselves part of a religion to either justify, or at least categorize themselves as part of something greater.

If you like killing, that doesn't mean you need some greater power, or a worship character like Satan. You probably just need a good cutlerly manufacturer - although I suppose the purist would actually forge their own knives...


But many of you are right. The religious fundamentalists from other faiths that believe in the existence of Satan would say he is influencing these choices, or we are doing his bidding by patronizing our darker passions.

I think many homocidals would disagree with that and would even consider trying to kill the Devil if they could find proof of his existence. They are killing to be free from authority, not submit to Satan's verison of it.


But none of this discussion provides how Satanists or the Satanic Bible answers the questions:

Why am I hear?

What is the meaning of Life?

What purpose do I serve here?

To say you exist to serve Satan is the same empty thing as saying you exist to serve God. What's the difference? Who wants to exist to serve someone else? Even if the other is the creator, and even if the creator is Satan, who wants to do what He wants? It's the same subservience to doing what God wants.

I want to do what "I" want.

If anything, we are probably subservient to our nature, and the laws of physics and biology. Often acting in ways to stand out as contrary to universal truths, we make ourselves more miserable than we can make ourselves feel good about being indulgent.

All religion tends to do, is offer some kind of higher purpose for being generally compliant with the norms for the human race. The zealots attempt to be overly compliant, albeit sometimes in misguided ways (Sept. 11th).

To me it seems, Satatnism removes scientific evidence for the reasons we have what's termed 'vice' in our society, and tries to offer a larger, larger scopic explanation for it, that really doesn't serve much purpose, except to provide someone with those "characters" they like to imagine in their lives, like Dr. Doom (or would Superman be akin to Jesus Christ?)

I don't need 'a character' to acknowledge or worship to justify or thank because I like sex. It certainly does nothing good for me to like a character or belief system that condemns it outside of marriage, or makes people feel guilt-ridden or bad about themselves.

Neither God nor the Devil seems to have any usefulness or appeal.

I still not sure I know how and what makes religion worth its while to Satanists?

JON9000
11-29-2002, 03:34 PM
"The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." - Gibbon

I think being a hedonist makes you no more a worshipper of Satan than denying every natural urge you have makes you a worshipper of God. But then, I subscribe to the philoshopher's role described above.

Tycho
11-29-2002, 03:37 PM
Great quote Jon!

My response to it:


"The various modes of worship, which prevailed in the Roman world, were all considered by the people, as equally true; by the philosopher, as equally false; and by the magistrate, as equally useful." - Gibbon


EXACTLY!

2-1B
11-29-2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Darth Vellner


To me it looks more like the "Hang Loose" hand sign...:confused:
maybe try it like this...

\n/,

- or -

\w/,

No, silly ! :crazed:

the "m" is the middle and ring finger !

Your "n" suggestion fails because it's only one finger, and I don't know what that "w" is supposed to be . . . I guess you could argue it's two fingers coming down, but then where's the thumb? :D

The Hang Loose would need thre fingers (bumps) like this:

\mn/

JediTricks
11-29-2002, 08:01 PM
Stanism: the devout belief that Stan Lee will actually win MORE money from Marvel than the mil-a-year he currently gets.

---

Satanism: The cult of Satan, or Satan worship, is in part a survival of the ancient worship of demons and in part a revolt against Christianity or the church. It rose about the 12th cent. in Europe and reached its culmination in the blasphemous ritual of the Black Mass, a desecration of the Christian rite. The history of early Satanism is obscure. It was revived in the reign of Louis XIV in France and is still practiced by various groups throughout the world, particularly in the United States. One of the largest and most influential Satanic groups is the Church of Satan (1966), founded by Anton LaVey in San Francisco. A splinter group, the Temple of Set (1975), was organized by Michael Aquino. Many Satanic groups, including the ones mentioned, attest that such worship does not necessarily imply evil intentions, but rather an alternative to the repressive morality of many other religious groups. Such groups see no harm in their indulgence in “worldly pleasures” that other religions forbid. Other, more severe brands of Satanism likely exist, although much of the activity pegged as “Satanic” has less to do with the religion than with various forms of sociopathy. Indeed, reliable research has found no evidence indicating the existence of alarming, large-scale satanic phenomena. An unfortunate mistake is the unfounded—yet common—linkage of minority religious traditions, such as the African-derived voodoo and Santería, with Satanism.

source: infoplease.com

2-1B
11-29-2002, 08:59 PM
See, I never understood the Black Mass - if you don't like a particular religious practice, that's fine.
But why not go out and do your OWN thing? :D

Darth Sidious
11-29-2002, 09:18 PM
Hmm...My thoughts. Well, being a devout Christian I disagree with Satanism. But what I disagree with more is religious intolerance. So, to each his own, and to the Satanists, I don't mind you practicing Satanism, and hopefully you respect my decision to be a Christian. You don't hurt me, I don't hurt you. It's that simple. :)

JediTricks
11-29-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
But why not go out and do your OWN thing? :D Yeah! Why don't those Christians get their own holy book and stop celebrating christmas on Dec 25th? ;) Many religions are based in part upon other religions, Catholicism and Islam is based in part from Christianity, which itself is based in part from Judaism.

Emperor Howdy
11-29-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sidious
So, to each his own, and to the Satanists, I don't mind you practicing Satanism, and hopefully you respect my decision to be a Christian. You don't hurt me, I don't hurt you. It's that simple. :)



"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:16).









P.S. The building on the cover of the Eagles "Hotel California" is the Church of Satan......when you open the album (if you're old like me and HAVE albums), you see the lobby of the Church and standing in the balcony, looking down on everyone, is none other than Anton LaVey! What fun!

Tycho
11-30-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy




"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth" (Revelation 3:16).




I've thought about it, and I really don't understand this quote. Could anyone offer their interpretation, and the context of who said it to whom?

JediTricks, thanks for your information. That was a very valuable post.

I think maybe in some ways I am a Satanist, but how can one be an Agnostic or Atheist, and also be a Satanist. Since Agnostics or Atheists are less organized than say a Satanic Church, does Satanism pick up the stray non-believer with no place to belong?

Perhaps the social opportunities in belonging to a Satanic church are much more bountiful than the loneliness or isolation experienced by an Agnostic or Atheist who does not belong to a strong organization. Remember the guy who sued that the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional (because it says "One Nation under God," in it) ? He seemed so much more the angry loner type. I think he was a doctor or a lawyer, I'm not sure. Regardless, I'm sure he did have a social life in doctors' organizations, or legal organizations such that he'd be a member of the American Medical Association or the California Bar Association, amongst other organizations professionals join. However, he might have still felt he had nothing in common with other members at Christmas time (I'm already sick of Christmas songs still in November!)

Now there are Atheist support groups. I've learned that San Diego has one, though I haven't been able to attend their meetings yet - and I'm not certain I'm an Atheist either.

Now if perhaps Satanists mean God no harm (if He exists) but choose not to believe He wants us to live a life of sacrafice and self-denial, than perhaps Satanism has more to offer me?

Still, I seriously do not believe there is a Satan, nor a Hell. It seems ridiculous to me. But this is the way other people who call themselves Satanists feel?

Than Satan serves them as merely a make-believe figurehead, and not a real entity, because they are actually Atheists or Agnostics, practicing Hedonism?

This might make more sense. But who out there is really committing sacrafices? Of what or who? And who are they making the sacrafices to? Are they worshipping an Evil One, or are they trying to practice Evil in the name of something other than themselves, who are in actuality, the real agents of evil?

2-1B
11-30-2002, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Yeah! Why don't those Christians get their own holy book and stop celebrating christmas on Dec 25th? ;) Many religions are based in part upon other religions, Catholicism and Islam is based in part from Christianity, which itself is based in part from Judaism.

Totally different! :crazed:

Co-opting popular festivals and slipping in new meanings is one thing - it's easier to convert that way. ;)
With the Black Mass, it's just the OPPOSITE of the Catholic Mass, and I think that's pretty lazy. And whiny.

The whole idea behind Satanic thought is to free oneself from other religious influence . . . so why not go forth and copulate with impressionable young people (since it's so flesh based) instead of saying prayers backwards and other foolish acts?
Sounds foolish to me !
That's why I suggested they go out and "do their own thing" -- it's all about shedding the yoke of religious oppression . . . I see no point in wasting time with one of those yokes. :)





At least with Christmas and Halloween, there's a bit of creativity there. :crazed:

The 'Xir
11-30-2002, 11:03 AM
DIE !!! JEDI !!! DIE!!!

"What did I say?!".

In all seriousness though Wedge A and Overlord bring up some good points. Just so you know there is an actual published 'Satanic Bible'! A friend of mine that I used to work with brought it in to work one day, I was going to borrow it, but never had the chance, I read like 2 pages. I'm sure it is available or available to order at any book store, and it actually is a serious "bible"-like guide to study and practition in satanism, just like Christians would read the actual Bible to further their faith. As far as I remember It actually is quite similar to the real bible and shares some of the same events, like the rise of hell's army upon the mortal plain, and I think the war of angels in heaven! Not exactly sure on that, but hey both bibiles just make great fodder for comic book writers to rip off!!!
I really don't know much else about the religion or Wicca, but known friends or acquaintences that were into each respectively. So there are actual serious religious sects that follow this stuff, its just the small extreme sects like Saddo-Masochists(sp?) that get all the glorifications in movies and such! Hope this helps... well atleast a little!:evil:

DIE!!! TYCHO!!! DIE!!! What?! What did I say?! :crazed: JK!

Ooops!!! didn't realize there was a second page, so I didn't read all the posts! Disregard all the above! except for the dying part! ;)

QLD
11-30-2002, 11:15 AM
mmmmm.......wicca chicks.....mmmmmm....earthy......

The Overlord Returns
11-30-2002, 01:12 PM
*looks back at what he's said in this thread....*


Wha?? I made points??????

The 'Xir
11-30-2002, 03:15 PM
Well... maybe we should keep it as contributions! :crazed:

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
11-30-2002, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
You might also want to take a look at Allister Crowley, he is a big name in the world of satanism.

So is Rush Limbaugh :D

2-1B
11-30-2002, 11:07 PM
You can't spell Santa with s-a-t-a-n !!!!!!!! :crazed:

stillakid
11-30-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Yeah, he and dryanta et al left SSg in protest........they're hanging out on nexus forum.

Protest of what?

JON9000
11-30-2002, 11:31 PM
Go take a look at the last page of the christian collector's club thread. I have to admit, things did seem to get a bit out of hand in the tread, but no reason to leave really.

plasticfetish
12-01-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I think maybe in some ways I am a Satanist, but how can one be an Agnostic or Atheist, and also be a Satanist. Since Agnostics or Atheists are less organized than say a Satanic Church, does Satanism pick up the stray non-believer with no place to belong?
Perhaps the social opportunities in belonging to a Satanic church are much more bountiful than the loneliness or isolation experienced by an Agnostic or Atheist who does not belong to a strong organization.
Tyco ... I'm seriously beginning to think that you ARE Satan and that this is some big elaborate ploy to freak us all out. (kidding) I'm still laughing at what you said in the very first post ... "and this is not a joke thread or a place to invite religious intolerance or persecution." Hahahah ... we're talking about Satanists ... they worship the "Prince of Darkness" ... they should be able to handle a little persecution. I mean, what do they figure "Hell" is going to be like? Club Med?

Originally posted by Tycho
Still, I seriously do not believe there is a Satan, nor a Hell. It seems ridiculous to me. But this is the way other people who call themselves Satanists feel?
My understanding is that if you don't believe in "Satan", then you aren't a Satanist ... you're just some Hollywood hipster type who flashes the horns all the time and pretends to like Ozzy. Oh! Oh! Oh! How I am sick of the trendy Satan thing.

Originally posted by Tycho
Than Satan serves them as merely a make-believe figurehead, and not a real entity, because they are actually Atheists or Agnostics, practicing Hedonism?
No. Satanists worship Satan. If they don't, then they aren't Satanists ... they're just pentagram wearing poseurs.

Originally posted by Tycho
This might make more sense. But who out there is really committing sacrafices? Of what or who? And who are they making the sacrafices to? Are they worshipping an Evil One, or are they trying to practice Evil in the name of something other than themselves, who are in actuality, the real agents of evil?
We had a nice big fire up in the mountains recently ... was set by a bunch of fun loving kids who where allegedly performing some kind of ritual. Again ... no doubt wanna-be Satanists, but none the less ... someone is out there giving the ritual thing a try. I remember the first time I was ever in Central Park in NY ... down in one of the little gullies under a bridge someone had split open a rabbit and surrounded it with a pentagram of candles ... obviously the night before someone had been busy there. So, it happens ... probably in different ways. I wouldn't say that the Satanist thing is any more of less organized than the alternatives ... they just don't have as many telethons ... and their "bible" was only made up a few decades ago.

Oh ... and by the way ... if anyone was wondering ...
Satanic Bible (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380015390/qid=1038726262/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-6863519-2352606?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

The 'Xir
12-01-2002, 02:41 AM
Plasticfetish- I understand where you are comming from, but to give the benefit of the doubt, just for arguments sake, Satanist are not what, or as you have described or trivialized them! Remember that ALL RELIGIONS are spoken/written in metaphors and cannot be taken literally word for word! So the word satan or satanism or satanic, doesn't mean that you totally believe in Satan himself(although obviously it can), but Satan is a metaphor for being in opposition to!
A great example, is the issue of abortion! The holy roman catholic church followed many mandates stringently up until and through the 80's that condemned this, but even they had to give into the right to choose! Which was a direct conflict or opposition to their belief system, in that which qualified for damnation!
But, would you call everyone who favored freedom of choice a satanist? No! However, that decision was still in direct opposition to the catholic churches teachings. The opposition or Idea of a satanistic Idea was the Ying to the catholic churches yang! Black vs white, good vs evil! Meaning all evil isn't necessarily evil, it's just an opposition or different view expounded upon a general cultures popular view!
As far as the idea of sacrafices goes, once again it doesn't have to be literal! They can be symbolic gestures or if you wanted to perform living sacrafices, who says that they are human? I'm, sure many animals have been sacraficed during satanistic rituals! But on that notion alone, most if not all Native Americans would be satanist then! This simply is not the case!
Also, look back in history especially to the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE who suppossedly believed in all this fun stuff!!!! Sacrafices were held all the time! For the innocent(guilty)(innocence(first offense) of criminal behaviour) and the guilty(guilty of being ignorant(innocent to the crime. The roman GREAT Cesaer Augustus(or Octavian) once sacraficed 300 HUNDRED!!!!! people to prepare for either battle or a ceremony, I forget which!, none-the-less it's still 300 people and for what?
I'd expound nut I 'm already falling asleep in this chair!!

plasticfetish
12-01-2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Remember that ALL RELIGIONS are spoken/written in metaphors and cannot be taken literally word for word!

I'm not sure I would use Catholicism as the contrast for this ... perhaps "Christianity" in general would be better. And yes, I'm sure there are many people out there that call themselves Satanist that would also play down the "Satan" thing ... and yeah, just for the sake of argument (because frankly it's all just mythology to me) ... I would say that makes as much sense as your average self titled Christian trying to play down the whole "Jesus" thing. I suppose if I'm going to poke fun at a religion (or trivialize it) I'm going to do it on the basis of the fact that ... as I see it ... the best thing that most of your mainstream religions have going for them is that they're based on tradition and have some real history behind them (Especially the Catholic church, which mugged most of it's symbolism from the "pagans".) Satanism in it's most current and popular form took shape with Lavey in ... what ... 1972? I mean ritual is one thing, but ... it's the 21st century ... putting on funny masks and black robes today better have a little history behind it or you're going to look like a reject from a Monty Python sketch.

Now ... if what you're about is more along the lines of a particular kind of Philosophy, then whatever ... it's not a religion and yeah, you're more of an Agnostic than anything else ... not a "Satanist". If you're doing it just because you like the "look" ... fine, whatever too ... I'll admit, the whole black turtleneck, big medallion, evil goatee thing can be pretty cool.

"but Satan is a metaphor for being in opposition to!" ... does that mean "Vegetarian" is simply a metaphor for being in opposition to meat? No ... it means you don't eat meat ... pretty literal. Eat meat and you're not a vegetarian. Now ... drink goats blood and you're not necessarily a Satanist ... sure ... frankly at that point I don't care what you are, you're not coming over to my house. As far as Native Americans or the ancient Romans and their fad oriented religions goes ... well, time hasn't been too kind to the first and it's pretty much buried the second. I only wish the whole "Satan" thing would end up with all the others ... in that great D&D Monster Manual in the sky.

PS. Those aren't Guy's eyes! (http://members.aol.com/alainsil/morethan/rosebaby.jpg)

stillakid
12-01-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by JON9000
Go take a look at the last page of the christian collector's club thread. I have to admit, things did seem to get a bit out of hand in the tread, but no reason to leave really.

Apparently there were problems in some of the other threads (voting or something). But as I type the rest of this, my disclaimer is that I didn't go read those.

But, it sounds like "they" just got tired of people not agreeing with their self-imposed limited points-of-view. By definition, joining ANY group or belief-system puts severe limits on what you're allowed to believe and/or condone. On the other hand, it sounds like others weren't giving their points-of-view room to exist. Depending upon the group you join or call yourself a member of, it closes off your mind to a world of other wonderful (or not so wonderful) possibilities.

I won't touch Christianity again. Been through that one ad infinitum. :rolleyes: Or Satanism either. ;)

But look at Star Wars for example. By virtue of the fact that we are all here, we all must like the saga. However, there are many among us who fail to see the problems in the films for what they are. "Fandom" can blind anyone to the potential unpleasant reality that a "passion" can be flawed. There's one guy in particular who bounces from thread to thread, who defends absolutely EVERYTHING GL or Hasbro does. Sometimes he's right, but not always. But it's the blanket support that's just as close-minded as anyone subscribing to an oppressive religious belief-system. Perhaps not as potentially dangerous, but just as silly.

But I suppose we all need some kind of anchor we can cling to in order to bring a sense of stability to our lives. Whether it be religiously motivated or even a hobby, there's nothing wrong with it so long as we can recognize the situation we've put ourselves into and leave room for others to live out their lives in the peaceful reality.

But of course, that's just my opinion. ;)

sith_killer_99
12-01-2002, 11:55 AM
PF, actually most (not ALL, but most) vegetarians DO oppose eating meat. Meat is murder and all that hoopla.

I knew this vegan (that's what she prefered to be called) one time and she said sarcastically "I don't eat anything that has a face." So one of the guy's I was with said "What about fish? They don't really have faces, just profiles." hahaha

Anywho, I'm not really a religious person. I believe in the Lord our God and his son Jesus Christ. My faith is a matter between he and I (yes, I believe in the Holy Trinity).

I don't really get into the religion discussions. As far as the Catholics go, here is my view. Without Catholicism Christianity would not exist today. They kept the word alive for more than 1500 years, until Martin Luther's 95 thesis (1517).

Just my 2 cents.

Nexu
12-01-2002, 01:30 PM
Everyone in the Christian thread left because we knew that we were being watched, and that we really don't have freedom, or control. The way it is now, I am in control of my (section of) the forums. If needed, I will close, hide, create new, and manage the forums. Can't do that here, for obvious reasons. Still don't understand it? I'm sorry. ;)
I can only have the link to my forums in my sig. Anything further is advertising, and that isn't allowed. :rolleyes: I just want to let you all know that you are all welcome at the forums. Don't come looking for a fight, though, it isn't going to happen.

2-1B
12-01-2002, 01:35 PM
We are legion.

QLD
12-01-2002, 01:38 PM
I talked to Satan today while listening to a Motley Crue alblum.....he told me that he doesn't exist.....

Wait.......now I am more confused.......

GET OUT OF THOSE BUTTOCKS SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mabudonicus
12-01-2002, 02:28 PM
Just to muddy the issue a bit more, I'm vegan, and I think eating meat is a bad IDEA, not an inherently evil one or anything....
Does that help focus things any??:):):)

sith_killer_99
12-01-2002, 07:43 PM
Clear as mud.;)

On a side note, evil spelled backwards is live.:eek:

Devil spelled backwards is lived.:rolleyes:

So does that mean that the devil lived and evil is alive?

Maynard McGuffin
12-01-2002, 08:24 PM
Why am I banned? Pretty cute that I get a private message, then you ban me so I can't read it. Lovely system you have going. Couldn't you send me an email or something?
Look, I'm not out for revenge, so don't be on the lookout for any DoS attacks, or anything of that matter. ;) I just want to know what the deal is, then I'll leave. simple as that. If that's too much to ask, I don't belong here in the first place.

Beast
12-01-2002, 09:04 PM
I would guess that you were banned, due to all the hate and crap that goes on over at your special forums. I've read some really vile and hatefilled stuff over there about homosexuals and the Islam religion being "violent". Never mind the fact that the Christian Church has been behind the Crusades (one of the most violent times in history), as well as turning a blind eye twords the holocaust and slavery. Let they who are without sin, cast the first stone. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Maynard McGuffin
12-01-2002, 09:14 PM
Yeah, ok, doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to get into an arguement, but can you explain that to me? Uh....my forum, my business? I'm sorry that I express my beliefs at my own forums. Excuse me for doing so. :rolleyes: Really good reason to ban me.

Beast
12-01-2002, 09:21 PM
Makes sense to me. Double standard from what I've read. The Islamic religion is evil for killing people that don't subscribe to their religion, yet it was ok for the Catholic Church to do the same thing all those years ago. :p

Maybe because you also keep drawing attention to your forums, instead of just leaving the link in your sig. I've seen you post the whole "I can't mention it, cause thats advertising" thing atleast 3 times in the last week.

Hate and intollerance of other people is always a good reason to ban someone. You are linking to a forums that preaches hate of people. But I see it directed away from your own religion. I don't see any hate against the priests that molest their alterboys. Or discussion of the popes of the past, that sold "Get into heaven free" cards to the rich. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

jobi
12-01-2002, 09:21 PM
You were probably banned for constantly starting "issues" and then not letting them drop. My personal view of you is that you are starved for attention and you use these forums to get it. You're a drama queen you just have to have something going on. I'm not attacking you in any way just giving my opinion of you.

stillakid
12-01-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
I knew this vegan (that's what she prefered to be called) one time and she said sarcastically "I don't eat anything that has a face." So one of the guy's I was with said "What about fish? They don't really have faces, just profiles." hahaha



:D I like that one!

Tycho
12-01-2002, 11:06 PM
First off, I think that what JarJar and Jobi just posted, borderlines on attacking Nexu (Maynard McGuffin). It's a slippery slope. Second, and to Nexu, SirSteve and the staff work very hard to provide the information, Star Wars news, and the features, and moderated forums that you see on this site, especially Steve who built this place from scratch. Policies on advertising must be uniform across the board because our paid advertising helps host the image library we keep building here (and provide for those of you who add your own pictures to your posts). Regardless of whether another site is selling something or not, traffic and patrons sent away from this site for any reason hurts those of us who place a lot of value in what we've built here, which is maintained for all of you by being fair to our paying sponsors. That being said, I'll now deal with the flame-war issues buzzing around here.

Let's just say I'd like to see a lot more tolerance from all corners of the arena here.

I was unaware there was some banning going on, however I can't offer an opinion on that because I haven't seen what's being cited as innappropriate use of the forums.

But I've read some of the intolerance posted by the devout around here (in all categories, from religion to Star Wars preferences). Differing opinions is what message boards are all about. CNN's message boards are 10x more full of hate and flaming than anything you see on SSG. I agree with the philosophy of this site, to not allow personal attacks, and that this is intentional. That is especially true because more children (with much more fragile egos) come to this site and look to the adult members as role models on how to post or carry on discussions. We are also here to celebrate our fandom, which we all were once joined together by. Today, even that's broken down between Classic Purists, Prequel Partiers, and EU Enthusiasts, all dooking it out over the question of "what is truly Star Wars?"

Attacks hurt people for sure when they are specific. Then when you get into generalizations, they still can be quite painful. Most people come here to escape into a fantasy hobby they like. Being told that in general, people who like The Phantom Menace are not "true fans," does hurt someone's blissful joy-pill they expect when coming here for new discussions about whether their favorite obscure Gungan background character should get an action figure.

When you get into good message boards, you're able to discuss other things, maybe more adult or contemporary things such as world news, religion, politics, philosophy, etc. But generalizations still hurt others, often as much as personal attacks. If someone's self-image is built upon them being a good Christian, and another Christian comes along and says that homosexuality is an abomination against God, it probably really hurts these people who have spent their whole life trying to fit in, trying to be normal. They've sought out this home at SSG because Star Wars unites them. And although I don't know what it means to be homosexual, I do know that each individual is unique, and some may not have any problems fitting in, or taking other people's opinions with a grain of salt, while others will think it's a personal attack - just like the adamant Lucas-Defenders or Classic Purists feel when their position is debated.

To all sides of everything, I suggest you grow up! The world is full of differing and diverse opinions. You need to shape up your self-confidence and deal with it. I think some of you are being exposed to differing viewpoints for your first time, and that is part of the problem.

I find myself in strong disagreement with Stillakid on a lot of Star Wars issues - the very first reason I'm here on this site. But I am usually in strong similar opinions with him on religion and politics. There's a point where I've reached where I'm not going to debate him on Qui-Gon and midichlorians - because I know I'm right, and I'm not going to be baited into those discussions any more - but I still value my online friendship with him to discuss other subjects.

Meanwhile, I miss BigBarada, who seems to have left thinking he offended me (he never did) and though I completely disagree with him about religion and politics, I found common ground with him on military issues and our Star Wars tastes were very similar.

I've never had a problem with Nexu, I miss Dryanta and JangoFett096, and only suggest that people tolerate their views that I also disagree with, and that they tolerate ours.

It is perfectly fine for them to congregate in some Christian Collector Club. I started the Sith Collector Club half as a joke, but half because others without their religious faith unique about them, had few choices of unifying groups to join. It was reactionary to the Christian Club, but not meant to be offensive.
It was a want for some group to belong to, and I never once posted in the Christian thread, nor did I want to belong over there (as I did not have that fellowship in common with them) but BigBarada and I might've both been just as likely to join a Prequel Fans' Group had there been one. That, as well as loyalty to SSG, a site I've been involved with since 1996 (six years!) is what keeps me from going over to another forum site to talk with a clique of SSG users who have separated. But I do like them and wish them well.

I've read that BigBarada has ceased collecting mostly, and therefore I may also have less to discuss with him it's reasonable to assume. I was never offended by his religious posts. I just didn't disagree with him, and think it's polite to not challenge him and other Christians on their faith for no reason. In religious and political threads, it's a different story because if you go in there, that's what you should expect to get out of it.

But in their defense, they do not preach hate, as far as what I saw. They discuss homosexuality as they see it: wrong as by what's stated in the Bible. They are tolerant by the fact that I've never seen them state that they should harm (verbally or otherwise) homosexuals or anything like that. They should not state publically that "homosexuals will burn in hell" or something like that, even if that is what they believe. They should be more sensitive. If they want to collect themselves in a group that believes and thinks the way they do, let them. It should not be, and does not have to be, open and inclusive to homosexuals - just like the Boy Scouts. If that is what the organization is about, then so be it. Don't join, join and don't tell, or start or find another organization if you're homosexual (however, the government need not subsidize organized discrimination by favoring the Boy Scouts organization with land leases, or whatever else).

As to the homosexuals, they need to realize that they cannot change some people's minds about them. I will not stereotype or generalize about them, but some, not all, have difficulty dealing with the fact that they want to be accepted as 'normal' (and who is to say they are not?) but they themselves don't feel normal. Like I said, I don't understand what homosexuality is all about, but it is my opinion that some who feel they cannot 'market themselves' to the opposite sex, or 'marketable members' of the opposite sex, assume 1) there might be something wrong with them, and / or 2) that they might be ***, and / or 3) that they should 'give up on trying to fit in with normal, heterosexual society.' Those making this choice to act in a homosexual manner, may only feel worse about themselves, because they want their world to be black and white, and it's never going to be, and to top it off, they feel they are giving up a fight to be who they want themselves to be, not accepting themselves for who they are and / or creating themselves in the image that they want to be. There should be awareness and prevention of discrimination, because aside from all the debates we can have about psychological states of various *** individuals, there are people born with real physical differences, and real, unquestionable sexual orientations. They need to be respected and they (in my opinion) often have better self-esteem and self-confidence, than the previous category that fits that "choose to be *** group." However, it's that "choose to be *** group" that screams the loudest about their rights. They are so frustrated with themselves that they want to be acknowledged and they want people to know they are suffering from identity issues and alienation. I think they see hate all around them because they hate themselves!

On the same note, I think that many screaming ultra-conservatives who do not have the self-esteem and confidence issues in their "marketability" for this world and the social order of things, have to hate homosexuals so they can look at someone they can point out as worse off than themselves. It's the old bullying syndrome.

I would say the well-adjusted Christian who has a heterosexual sex life (ideally in marriage to not point towards the hypocritical), and who comes from a stable family (of their parents, and in their marriage) who still feels homosexuality is an abomination, has a right and a place to be expressing their opinion. That's what they believe. But I don't think they hate homosexuals. They have no reason to hate, and furthermore, they have no reason to be involved with the issue altogether (possibly).

Like I said, those who hate themselves are looking for hate (either to project on others, or to claim they are hate-crime victims because they hate themselves).

Wrapping it up, finally, the Christians are welcome to state their opinions here, but they should be sensitive to what style of Witnessing will hurt others more than they think it will help them. The homosexuals need to understand that everyone who is not one of them, or everyone who is a practicing Christian, Jew, Muslem, or any other religion which states marriage is between a man and a woman, do not all hate homosexuals. I realize there are factions on both sides who see hate everywhere, and the best advice I can give them is to start correcting the problem by looking at yourselves! Change starts with you.

I too have gotten angry and realize it, because part of this doctrine issue that says sodomy is an abomination comes from the decree that marriage is between a man and a woman, and that sex out of wedlock is a sin. We come back to this thread where I am trying to learn whether Satanism is for me, because I am an active and ambitious sinner bound for Hell according to other people's moral preachings here. My own opinion is that I'm a good person if a girl and myself have a good time and we part our separate ways some time afterward. I still hope that I won't always be lonely and I sometimes fantasize that I will meet the girl of my dreams who is so perfect, that I'll just have to marry her and have that "Leave it to Beaver family" that is supposed to be the American Dream. But sometimes I hurt when I lack a lady's companionship, and I don't need it suggested that I'm a Hell-bound Evil-Doer just because I desire certain things first. Different days, I might get pretty offended by that, regardless of whether it was told to me personally or not. That's why sidewalk preachers offend me, and with the gulf of self-esteem I sometimes feel for not having yet made a connection with my soul-mate, I return my self-hate with hatred for them who seem to be damning me for trying. I gotta brush it off and go on, and realize - they're not competing with me for the girls I'm going for -adn that's one thing to be thankful for right there!

Back to this thread though: a lot of people are likely Hedonists, and many of the Hedonists are hypocrites because they say they are Christian or something else. Many people are also hate-mongers and don't even know it, because they want to be Hedonists or at least worthy of their self-righteousness, but aren't, and they actually become Hedonists by giving into the self-indulgence that satisfies their hate they harbor.

I'm still not sure what a Satanist is, but thanks to the great links some of you have provided, I'll study the Satanic Bible and learn if this is for me. I'm not saying that Satanism has anything to do with hate - I have no clue as of yet about that. I am saying that I recognize hate where others are blind to it, especially their own, and I can conquer it because I don't want to deal with anything that condones it. Let's erase the hate.

This thread was prompted subconsciously to discuss issues of tolerance. Let's practice it here and on the rest of the message boards, OK?

plasticfetish
12-01-2002, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
... that sold "Get into heaven free" cards to the rich.

Do you think I could find one of those on eBay now? That might come in handy sooner or later.

Tycho
12-01-2002, 11:24 PM
Just to head off comments I often get to my longer posts like "when is the book-on-tape coming out?" I ask that you just read my 'novel' above and comment on what I said in it, once you try and understand it.

My goal was to explore every avenue of the issue so I would not have to post my opinion and reasons for it piecemeal.

I'd rather make one larger contribution to the discussion, than many incomplete ones. That's all.

stillakid
12-01-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

I find myself in strong disagreement with Stillakid on a lot of Star Wars issues - the very first reason I'm here on this site. But I am usually in strong similar opinions with him on religion and politics. There's a point where I've reached where I'm not going to debate him on Qui-Gon and midichlorians - because I know I'm right, and I'm not going to be baited into those discussions any more - but I still value my online friendship with him to discuss other subjects.



I like what you said up there. Thanks for taking the time from your day to type it out. ( I quoted only the above part cuz it's about me ;) )

Anyhoo, like you said, it's all about tolerance. I too, had significant personal problems tolerating what I perceive(d) as mass delusions regarding the Prequels, but I've come to accept that we all have our pov's regarding it and everything else on the planet (and beyond). (I still know I'm right about Qui and Midi's, but that's a different topic. ;) )

As I beat around the bush above, I suspect that the mass exodus crowd reached the breaking point where they couldn't tolerate "us". Those who could be "saved," were and that was the end of the line. Time to move on to cleanse different souls.

But I suppose that's the beauty of religion, and politics, and hobbies, etc. Just like the Internet, there's something out there for everybody. I believe that there is only one TRUTH, and that not a one of us really knows what that is at the moment. Christianity doesn't own it, nor does Satanism, I suspect. And until Episode III is a memory, none of us will really know the true nature or purpose of Qui Gon and the Midi's. But in the meantime, it's all about tolerance, getting along, and having as much fun as possible without hurting anyone. :)

Oh, P.S., check out SOLARIS for an example of this kind of thing. A different way of looking at what we perceive as "reality." Trippy. :)

Maynard McGuffin
12-02-2002, 07:26 AM
I still didn't get an answer......Not anyone's opinion, I want an answer.

Old Fossil
12-02-2002, 08:14 AM
Nexu/MM, why do you give a flip about SSG??? I mean, last month you said you were leaving! Being banned shouldn't ruffle your feathers if you were leaving in the first place.

I have nothing against you, since I've found your posts usually contribute something, but you're beating a dead horse.

<I hope this interesting thread doesn't get closed!!!>

James Boba Fettfield
12-02-2002, 09:16 AM
Just contact JT about it instead of having us try to come up with answers.

Patient Zero
12-02-2002, 09:33 AM
I can't believe that I missed all this fun. :crazed: Well, the Nexu thing is very comical, but I don't feel like bothering with it. As for Satanism, I was under the assumption that there are divisions of it that have nothing to do with worshipping Satan. They had more to do with worshipping yourself. A type of 'I'm not a slave to the ideas of others and I will do what I believe is in my best interest'. This of course is just how I interperated it so your guess is as good as mine! :D

2-1B
12-02-2002, 10:36 AM
Yes Jonna, that's the philosophy shared by King Diamond (new album "The Puppet Master" due in 2003 ! ! ! :D ).

Man, when is he gonna do a new Mercyful Fate disc ? :cry:

Maynard McGuffin
12-02-2002, 10:46 AM
Sorry, I just think it's pretty ****-poor the way that they did it.

2-1B
12-02-2002, 11:50 AM
That's "urinate-poor" to you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:crazed:

QLD
12-02-2002, 12:06 PM
maybe you were the lucky winner of the ban lottery!

geez....i never win ANYTHING!

The 'Xir
12-02-2002, 01:52 PM
Aww, can't we all just get along!!!!!:kiss:

Ahh, the good ole days, Tycho reminded me of way back when in the oldest forums before the older forums that came before the old forums, and it probably was about 5-6 years ago, if not longer. Man I can't even remember when I started comming here! But, just like him and still-a-kid, Me and JediTricks were always disagreeing about something. After awhile, we realized we were probably more alike than we would like to admit, it was actually fun disagreeing with him because we were just talking about our shared interest in SW so it didn't matter if one of us was right or not(although I was :D )! However, even if our views are completely different, it's all about tolerance people, and the fun we have about discussing and debating StarWars or any other interests! Because, we all have to remember one thing in the end; NONE OF US ARE RIGHT, especially about anything Starwars... because George is!(whether we like what he does or not) ;)

James Boba Fettfield
12-02-2002, 02:15 PM
I didn't think Mercyful Fate was still doing anything. Good to know they are. Or is that Puppet album a solo venture of Diamond's? His music always made evil sound fun.

Jargo
12-02-2002, 05:40 PM
I believe in fairies.






Okay, so that killed the conversation somewhat. :rolleyes:


What's for dinner, I'm starved........... :sur:

JediTricks
12-02-2002, 11:11 PM
Nexu, I emailed you a response to your inquiry, that should be the end of it. You have your answer as to why you were banned, the end.


As to this thread, it's been off topic for what, 30 posts now? I'm afraid that's TC-territory:

Thread Closed