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u156446
12-06-2002, 11:50 PM
When Maul states "At last we will have our revenge" - what revenge is he referring to? My wife & I were asking ourselves this the other day, trying to figure it out. What did the Jedi do to Sidious & Maul such that the need to seek revenge?

stillakid
12-07-2002, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by u156446
When Maul states "At last we will have our revenge" - what revenge is he referring to? My wife & I were asking ourselves this the other day, trying to figure it out. What did the Jedi do to Sidious & Maul such that the need to seek revenge?

Nothing. It means nothing. The Phantom Menace was just a dream. A bad dream. Go back to sleep...sleep...sleep...

JediTricks
12-07-2002, 04:34 AM
The Sith are cheesed off at the Jedi for kicking them out of the public eye for 1000 years, I think.


Or maybe it was Lucas' revenge against all those SW fans who said ESB is better than ANH... and what a revenge it was! :D

JON9000
12-07-2002, 04:08 PM
I thought about this when making the illuminati comparison in the thread directly under this one. The far out stories say the illuminati were pagans and were cheesed off because the judeo-christian-muslim tradtions had usurped the Bacchanalia of the earlier days when modes of worship involved shall we say, more basic and carnal devices. The illuminists were intent on destroying the new religions and bringing back their old ways, which they had preserved since the days before their traditions died. Did Lucas have the tales of conspiracy inmind when determining the story of the Sith? Read the thread and comment!

mini-rock
12-08-2002, 03:50 AM
"At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge"

What's not to understand?

u156446
12-08-2002, 09:41 PM
Revenge, in one dictionary, is defined as "the act of taking vengeance for injuries or wrongs; retaliation". Based on this meaning, it implies that that Jedi did _something_ to the Sith, for which they seek vengeance. What did the Jedi do to the Sith to start this whole thing?

Mr. mini-rock, the line you quote above does not substantiate vengeance, only that they've been waiting to reveal themselves, which _also_ implies that they've been "hidden" for some time.

Again, I ask the question, what did the Jedi do to the Sith, such that the Sith seek REVENGE on the Jedi?

JediTricks
12-09-2002, 09:17 PM
The Jedi helped to extinguish the Sith order from the galaxy, or so they thought.

u156446
12-10-2002, 08:49 AM
That's probably the best answer so far. It also is supported by lines in AOTC when Mace Windu believes the Sith have been extinct for over a millenium, if I recall correctly.

stillakid
12-10-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
The Jedi helped to extinguish the Sith order from the galaxy, or so they thought.

Maybe, but didn't George have an article in a past Insider where he explained the Sith? I recall the column saying that the inherent nature of the Sith was that they were so power hungry that they eventually destroyed themselves. This is where the notion that there can only be 2, one master and one apprentice. The thirst for power eventually leads the apprentice to kill the master and take on another to train in order to keep the Sith order alive. If you recall that Fanfilm called Duality (http://www.ifilm.com/ifilm/product/film_info/0,3699,1011883,00.html) , it is evident that this is the concept of the Sith that they built their story on.

But, as the rest of the Saga is going, that appears to be tossed out the window. Here are some links to the Starwars.com site which has a number of alternate explanations:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/index.html

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20000619.html

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/eu.html

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/bts.html

JediTricks
12-10-2002, 05:16 PM
Stilla, you are correct that the Sith fought among themselves because they were driven by greed for the power to control the galaxy and whatnot, but I believe the Sith were constantly being hunted by the Jedi during that time and even after when it was just "there can be only 2". Plus, the Sith seem like the kinda guys who'd blame someone else for their problems.

Wookiee
12-11-2002, 05:04 PM
1000 years? Wow. that's some grudge. It's only been about 60 years or so since WWII and now Americans sit at home oohing and aahing the German cars in the comercials on their Japanese TV's.

Let it go already, Siths!

JediTricks
12-11-2002, 06:25 PM
Part of the dark side is giving in to anger and hatred, so I can see how that would fuel their desire for revenge and that same need for revenge would fuel their power in the dark side.

gibbyhayes
12-15-2002, 05:47 PM
It seems a pretty stupid way to carry out a legacy when your number never swells above 2, doesn't it. They sure get alot of press per capita.

JediTricks
12-16-2002, 12:01 AM
I dunno, Palpatine seems to have gotten almost everything he could ever want thanks to the dark side and just one apprentice.

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 09:06 PM
Well, I guess we're going to find out next year. :D At least I sure hope we are with Ep 3's title like that, but it's possible we won't, especially if this is like the "Return of the Jedi" title where Lucas later said it was Vader returning to being a Jedi.

Kidhuman
08-20-2004, 09:45 PM
especially if this is like the "Return of the Jedi" title where Lucas later said it was Vader returning to being a Jedi.


And here I thought it was Luke becoming a Jedi after all have died.

JediTricks
08-20-2004, 11:00 PM
I thought it was Luke - now a Jedi - returning to finish the job of saving Han and defeating the Empire.

KH, do you think as a return of the Jedi Order, or just of Luke specifically? I could see that either way as well.

Kidhuman
08-20-2004, 11:04 PM
I was thinking return of the Order I guess. They were thought to be extinct and Luke rose up to bring them back to power over the Empire.(now known as Sith)

stillakid
08-20-2004, 11:25 PM
1000 years? Wow. that's some grudge. It's only been about 60 years or so since WWII and now Americans sit at home oohing and aahing the German cars in the comercials on their Japanese TV's.

Let it go already, Siths!

Ya know, you're right. If they were smart, they should have turned to manufacturing technology and capitalized on the wallets of the Republic sheep instead of trying to "rule the world," ala Pinky and the Brain. Real control comes from economic superiority, not from maniacal "rule the world" schemes. (For the Rancor Pit, if the insurgency in Iraq bothered to study WWII history, they'd own New York by 2050 then they could dismantle it all they want. :rolleyes: )

But I digress...




It seems a pretty stupid way to carry out a legacy when your number never swells above 2, doesn't it. They sure get alot of press per capita.

Exactly. Taking a cue from the Shakers (no marriage, no sex), it's easy to see how a group like that would dwindle on its own. In short, it's their own fault. :ermm:

rbaumhauer
08-21-2004, 12:48 AM
The whole "Revenge of the Sith" thing, and the "foreshadowing" of it, just leads back to the central problem of the Saga, going back all the way to ROTJ: Lucas' loss of his sense of scale.

The GFFA makes a sort of sense in ANH and ESB because it feels BIG - it's a galaxy, after all, and there is a lot of implied scope to the place. Starting with ROTJ, Lucas became obsessed with the central roles of certain characters (Vader, the Emperor, the Skywalker Clan), and this has only gotten worse with each prequel. The GFFA feels really tiny these days, and this starts to cause real problems with the plots of the movies.

Specifically, the Emperor and his (one at a time) apprentices now wield a tremendous amount of power, but we don't really know anything about them. They clearly want revenge for *something*, but we have no idea what. If Lucas had maintained the original sense of scale in the films, perhaps giving Palpatine several henchmen, we wouldn't really care that much about motivations. Because all of this danger is now concentrated in so few characters, their motivations need to have some attention, and Lucas is unable to provide it.

With each successive chapter, I honestly become more and more thankful that Lucas was so restricted when he made "Star Wars", and so hands-off on "Empire" - we at least have two movies that stand on their own extremely well, that make some sort of sense internally, that have compelling characters and actual dramatic storytelling. After "Empire", it just gets more and more embarrassing - the Grand Backstory is ridiculous, the timeline is so comprehensively mangled that we have a dreaded Galactic Empire that lasted all of 20 years or so (nothing more than a historical hiccup, in other words), and we're supposed to give a d@mn and just keep buying into it.

"Star Wars" and "Empire" hinted at a greatness that Lucas has been comprehensively incapable of achieving. It's a shame, but two great movies is better than *no* great movies, so it could be worse.

Rick

Turambar
08-22-2004, 12:51 AM
Well, one thing's for certain. Nobody will know anything more after E3. If anything, viewers will be more confused as to the meaning of the "revenge."

My theory: Judging by his lack of character and inability to really do anything evil, Maul probably wasn't all that bright. He probably didn't care a whole lot about sithlore, or anything other than fighting. Palps probably just fed him some lines to give him motivation.

2-1B
08-22-2004, 02:56 PM
I thought it was Luke - now a Jedi - returning to finish the job of saving Han and defeating the Empire.

KH, do you think as a return of the Jedi Order, or just of Luke specifically? I could see that either way as well.

Well, according to Yoda, Luke was not a Jedi when he rescued Han.

When I was a kid I took the title literally and thought of it as Luke Returning as a Jedi to save Han and go on from there . . . but now I take it to mean the Return of the Jedi Order since he is supposed to pass on what he has learned after he becomes a full Jedi by confronting Vader. :)

JediTricks
08-23-2004, 12:29 AM
Well, according to Yoda, Luke was not a Jedi when he rescued Han.

When I was a kid I took the title literally and thought of it as Luke Returning as a Jedi to save Han and go on from there . . . but now I take it to mean the Return of the Jedi Order since he is supposed to pass on what he has learned after he becomes a full Jedi by confronting Vader. :)
Since this is a prequel thread, I will only point out in response that in the prequels, Padawans are Jedi too, and colloquially they are even allowed to be referred to as "Jedi Knights" by the common folks even though that's a rank above.