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Vortex
12-13-2002, 12:54 PM
I just finished reading this, and I have to shake my head and really wonder if our justice system is being used for the right reasons. I'm sure it is, but reading stuff like this just ticks me off and I wonder where the logic and reasoning went in this world.

I also blame the media for subjectivly selecting what information we do get in the end. With holding information and distorting other information. Then again, the plain facts never sell well...

www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/13/wtc.pilot.radio.suit/index.html

I can understand his point of view, how he feels to be wrongly accused, but on the other side of the coin he's not a US citizen and since when did foreigners get the same civil liberties as naturalized citizens?

Granted the article doesn't state if he is a citizen, but the words Egyptian Exchange Student lead me to believe he's not. Now, he recently got married, to who an american woman? So now is he going to court since he's now a citizen? Still seems shoddy and like he's trying milk the system.

I do feel sorry for him, if he was treated poorly like he claims, but at the same time I understand the government agencies were trying to "stop the bleeding" and take steps to make sure nothing more happened at that point. We had no clue how much more was going to happen or how to distinguish between terrorist and average joe.

It would be like me being in Northern Ireland, staying next to a hotel, catholic area, or some large heavily populated area that was bombed or multiple bombings took place. The police found and arrested one of the bombers who was an american or foreigner, was protestant, and was over on a vacation and his partners in crime were american and canadian citizens. I would personally expect the irish government and police force to hold me for questioning since I fit the description. Granted I wouldn't wish to be treated like he was, but at the same time they are doing their duty to protect their citizens and take any and all precautions. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and I'm sure I wouldn't have a leg to stand on in Ireland or anywhere else if this happened to sue for violation of my civil rights...since I'm sure I don't have any in ireland or any other nation to begin with.

He's claiming his international reputation was destroyed...come on, I've never heard of the guy till now and in another 2-3 weeks I'll forget his name, and face. Tack on the notion that in his dream he's afriad the FBI will arrest him again. Heck I can't even remember the names or faces of most of the terriorists or those guys that tried to take the plane back over.

What about all the families that lost loved ones in the towers, as fire fighters, passengers on the jets. How about me not sleeping with my parents overseas on vacation and my mom due/scheduled to return home the day after 9/11. My poor mom was diverted to Winnipeg since US airspace was closed, along with its borders and she was on her own while my dad was waiting for me in iceland so I could start my vacation. Can I sue the Saudi family, or terrorist families for 20 Million for my bad dreams or fears, or since I missed my vacation since I was bumped from my flight since the airline had to get all the stranded people home who were suposted to fly out 9-11, 9-12 and 9-13? Can I sue the airline ticket checker for selling the hijackers the tickets in the first place? Since they didn't suspect anything?

I'm probably more upset than I should be about this, but when is logic and common sense going to take back over. I'm getting tired of all these bogus lawsuits, people claiming mental anguish over things and that a couple of million will make them forget, or non-citizens bellyaching about this and that and their rights, which they don't legally have in the 1st place.

I could go on about the British woman who called into a radio show who has been living here for years, a non-citizen who came over for schooling, brought her kids along and was making the largest fuss about schools making her and her kids say the pledge since she was still loyal to the queen, but had no desire to be come a citizen. She was outraged that a school would make her kids or herself say some national pledge...and infringe on their rights and liberties. And sadly people sided with her on the radio.

But I'll get off my soap box now. Debate it if you want, I just had to vent.

The Overlord Returns
12-13-2002, 01:10 PM
Question is, if this (perfectly legal) radio device was found in the possesion of a non muslim, would they have brought said person in for questioning?

WE don't know that he is not a citizen ( though it does not sound like it) however, he was offered a chance to come here for education purposes. He was framed, and arrested and treated poorly with nothing but the barest shred of circumstancial evidence. He is certainly owed some compensation for the upheaval that his life was put through. Now, it may not be worth 20 million, but I would hazard a guess that a lawyer picked the number on that one......

In the theoretical example you presented, you would absolutley be able to seek civil damages, just as this person is. Law officials who are involved in this kind of botched investigation, as well as the parties in the private sector that LIED about this man (most likely because he was arabic) have to be held accountable. As for the families of 9/ 11, it's my understanding that they are all being given compensation....thats only natural.

As for the british woman, why should anybody be forced to take the pledge of allegiance? It should be a choice, as america is supposedly a democracy. What I can't understand is, WHY would she take kids from britain, TO the US to be educated? Has she not seen how far the us education system has gone down the tubes????

Jargo
12-13-2002, 01:47 PM
If you were an exchange student living and studying in britain tjovonovich, would you say a pledge of allegiance to a country that wasn't your own? You would be in exactly the same position as those kids in the school. Just there to be educated for whatever reason. There's no reason why any non national should be forced to say any pledge if they choose not to. I sure as hell wouldn't say a pledge. I don't feel beholden to anybody or any organisation that I would say a pledge in my own country. Why should I? If pious or nationalist folks want to then by all means go ahead just don't force the meaningless guff down other peoples necks. Not you personally, in general I mean.

As for the Egyptian guy. He was falsely accused of a vague crime in a severely indistinct frenzy of hatemongering. Having to spend a month incarcerated in American custody is enough to give anyone nightmares, I hope he wins his case against the federal agents. One day the American law enforcement agencies will learn that guilty until proven innocent has never been an effective way of dealing with crime suspects. The C.I.A and F.B.I want to have a word with themselves, wind their necks back in and chill out rather than just assuming everyone is guilty of something. They don't really do anything but make you Americans paranoid. Still looking for the reds under the beds after all these years. That's very sad, very saddening.

I'm not anti-America I hasten to point out. I just think certain aspects of American culture seen from the outside appear to be a little - archaic in attitude.

JON9000
12-13-2002, 03:18 PM
When a citizen travels abroad, they do not carry the laws of their own country with them, but it is rather settled that they will be treated like citizens of the country they are visiting. So if I travel to Iran, I will not be carrying my civil liberties with me, but I can assume the protections of Iranian law. It doesn't matter that this fellow from Egypt is not a citizen.

Vortex
12-13-2002, 03:42 PM
Nothing personal you two, but I sort of expect this response from non-US citizens and people not of the system. And you help to make me shake my head more since you are on the outside telling us, me, other, how we should act and conduct ourselves.

Everyone is entitled to their thoughts and opinions on freedoms, and yours are your own, and are further definied by where you are and how you were brought up, and to you they have a conviction and reasoning...as do mine.

As a tax payer, some one who has to LIVE in the system day in and day out, and is affected by it, sees the pit falls, and on occasion sees the gross injustices a need for a change. I feel our system needs a massive change. As a nation we are involved in every other countries problems and politics when we shouldn't be that involved. Plus other nations look to us for military and monitary support, and as an older brother to call on to kick the crap out of bullies or help settle problems. I'm tried of every other nation, non-citizens, and the ever popular american "liberal" telling us how we should be and treat others while they infringe upon my freedoms and liberties or the majorities as a whole.

As an example my girlfriend is a special ed. teacher at a grade school and they couldn't even mention thanksgiving, draw turkeys or even discuss thanksgiving dinner since they were afraid of offending a small minority of the people. Now this is a national holiday, but yet, as a public school, funded by the state and government, they can't even recgonize Thanksgiving. Last I heard this was a country of majority rule. It part of our history and beginnings, but yet, mums the word.

I'm waiting for the day some religious organization or ethnic group protest the red and white stripes of the flag since it offends their belief system, or is degrading to the colonies, or their individual heritage. Or some occult nut who think the 13 represents the illumaniti and wants it removed. Just like some are bellyaching about the pyramid on the back of the dollar. Or some person who doesn't like blue or stars and wants that off the flag. We might as well just have a white flag of surrend to show everyone that we've rolled over and no longer have an identity. As a nation we are slowly loosing our identiy, about who we are, and what we are about because of people who scream about personal freedom and liberties but take them away from the majority. If we keep listening to rhetoric like this, and some of the things you wrote, we stop being an independant nation with our own freedoms, ideals and liberties.

The US is far from perfect, there's a lot I don't like about the US, but I still choose to remain, play by its rules, since I don't see any other country out there that matches my ideas and wants as well as the US. But yet, every other nation looks our way, with scorn, envy, adimiration or whatever. Its easy to cast judgment when you're on the other side of the fence looking in and your not part of the group as a whole.

The freedoms we take for granted, scream and rant about, and expect never to be infringed upon come at a price, least you forget. If that means saying a stupid pledge so be it, if that means doing time in the militray so be it. If we are truely free as a people and nation we would be ruled by anarchy. There is no such thing as True Freedom. There will always be rules, regulations, and others keeping us from that. But as Americans our freedoms come at some price, military service, political service, saying a pledge, presidential speeches during prime time TV, even if we don't like it or accept it. Sometimes you have to tow the company line if you like it or not.

And just to answer Jargo's Q. If I was a student in Britian, I would know enough that I am in a foreign nation, with differnt rules, differnt forms or patirotism, and differnt expectations. I would accept that and either try to fit in if I was comfortable, and try to sing god save the queen if the need or time arose. What is the harm of showing respect to a nation, town, city that is graciously hosting me. When it Rome... If I wasn't comfortable, I wouldn't attend that funtion, nor would I put up a stink about it since my voice in Britian amounts to nothing. That woman with her kids, to me, shouldn't even have a say in that matter. If she doesn't want to accept it doesn't want to become one of us to fix the problem, pack her kids up and send them back to England where they don't have to say it. England and America and almost identical in freedoms and liberties, she came here for some reason so she should play by our rules. Would parliment adopt a new rule since I don't like driving on the left side of the road? Or should I put up a sink if at class I have to sing Rule Britania? Should I lobby that that stop charging me 5 or 10P for a catchup packet at McDonalds? I wouldn't since I would know that things are different in England, but that's just me.

We can argue freedoms all day and for a life time, you can put any label on me you like, but as far as this American is concerned, the man in question and the british woman have zero say or American liberties and freedoms if they aren't a citizen and I'm tried of eveyone sueing for millions over every minor and major inconvienence. I won't squack about Canadian or British liberties and freedoms since I'm not a citizen and I can only hope you'll make and effort to see the other side of the coin too.

Jargo
12-13-2002, 04:15 PM
I was just saying that if you were visiting or staying in britain you would be treated as a guest of the nation and not expected to adopt our strange pomp and circumstance customs or sing a national anthem that was not your own. Of course there are laws you would be expected to adhere to, that goes without saying and driving on the wrong side of the road is just plain stupid and dangerous and you could sue all you like but as we aren't by nature a litiginous nation you'd get nowhere fast if you did.
you wouldn't be expected to sing the anthem if you were a citizen. It's a freedom of choice it's not obligatory in our country.
The American judicial system allows for these cases to go through, if it didn't then none would ever be reported. I was joking today with my partner about ridiculous court cases and said it wouldn't be too unbelievable for someone to try to sue Sir Walter Raleigh for bringing tobacco into britain in the sixteenth century and thereby causing the trend for smoking tobacco which lead to the person becoming addicted to smoking and getting cancer. Totally ridiculous but all i'm saying is I appreciate the way you're looking at the issues and I'm not unsympathetic to your frustration, it's just that the two cases you cited to me don't appear to be unjustified ones.

I edited my previous post just as you were posting it seems because it read like I was singling you out when I meant my comment about the pledge to be a general one. If the woman had complained about the very pledge being said i could understand your complaint, but she only complained that her british children were being forced to say it too. If I attended a Jewish place of worship for whatever reason I wouldn't expect to be forced to say jewish prayer but nor would I complain that Jewish prayer was being said. I think the woman is justified in her complaint purely because she isn't objecting to your pledge being said per se, just her children who aren't citizens being forced to say it when it has no meaning for them. Were she applying for citizenship then she wouldn't have a leg to stand on because as we all know that forms part of the citizenship 'initiation', saying the pledge means you accept the terms of the constitution and American law and agree to abide by them. I'm not going to argue with you, I don't want a fight at all. nor will I bang on about this, perhaps we just need to agree to disagree and let it hang. :)

QLD
12-13-2002, 04:23 PM
I do feel a great concern over how non-citizens seem to have a stranglehold on our country lately. There are little or no efforts to send illegal visitors back and the strain they put on already strained tax dollars. And when crimes are committed by them, law enforcement has a hard time bringing them to justice, as there is no legal documentation to assist in an investigation.

However, I also feel that people legally visiting our country should be entitled to the same rights as citizens, since they are here legally.

I guess my issue is with illegal aliens and non-legal visitors. If someone is here legally, then I think they are entitled to the same rights as US citizens here.

Although I do also find it kind of frustrating that I cannot order something at McDonalds, buy groceries, and do many other things, without having a translator. I don't have anything against any particular ethnic group of people, but I do not like businesses that rely on customer service, hiring people that are not able to understand or speak english on a 3rd grade level. They say now that it won't be long before there will be more people speaking Spanish than English.

I guess maybe that might come off sounding bad, and I don't want it too. I guess I find it frustrating that people who come to our country now, refuse to adapt to our culture, and we seem to be fine with letting them. It used to be people couldn't wait to get here, and learn english, and try to live as other citizens do.


Anyway, before I start rambling, I just thought I would share those thoughts.

JediTricks
12-13-2002, 06:24 PM
First off, what the hell is this? "Ferry (the hotel security guard who framed Higazy) was convicted in March for lying to federal agents and sentenced to six months worth of weekends in prison." Weekends in prison? What is this, the Prisoner Reserve?!? What kind of punishment is that?

IMO, this guy was severely wronged thanks to the lies of some overzealous rent-a-cop and a government agency that promoted measures to coerce false confessions. If the courts could give this guy back his dignity and time and emotional well being - all items prescribed by basic human rights - then I would say this $20 mil lawsuit would be over the top; unfortunately, the court system can only deal in certain more tangible commodities and money is often the most powerful and vocal of them.


Do our American civil liberties apply to non-Americans? In my eyes, absolutely, the strongest parts of the foundation of our country say yes; even in the Declaration of Independence, it says "that [all men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". Plus, it's the golden rule, if we want to be treated a certain way by others, we have to treat them the way we want to be treated. I feel that if we say our civil liberties only apply to certain people, we violate the very principles on which our country was founded, stuff like "all men are created equal" and "liberty and justice for all" - neither of which stipulate political or geographic boundries.

Vortex
12-13-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
...Totally ridiculous but all i'm saying is I appreciate the way you're looking at the issues and I'm not unsympathetic to your frustration, it's just that the two cases you cited to me don't appear to be unjustified ones.

I edited my previous post just as you were posting it seems because it read like I was singling you out when I meant my comment about the pledge to be a general one. If the woman had complained about the very pledge being said i could understand your complaint, but she only complained that her british children were being forced to say it too. If I attended a Jewish place of worship for whatever reason I wouldn't expect to be forced to say jewish prayer but nor would I complain that Jewish prayer was being said. I think the woman is justified in her complaint purely because she isn't objecting to your pledge being said per se, just her children who aren't citizens being forced to say it when it has no meaning for them. Were she applying for citizenship then she wouldn't have a leg to stand on because as we all know that forms part of the citizenship 'initiation', saying the pledge means you accept the terms of the constitution and American law and agree to abide by them. I'm not going to argue with you, I don't want a fight at all. nor will I bang on about this, perhaps we just need to agree to disagree and let it hang. :)

I know its nothing personal and maybe I am making this my personal soap box, and your side is totally understandable also, but I was mainly p.o'ed that this guy who's over here by choice, not forced to stay but still is, by choice, even after his bad ordeal, is putting in a wild claim. Our media does nothing to report the full facts, only sound bits and bits of converstaions to cast judgment and disinformation. The whole article and claim is another black mark on the events and how it was handled and how some are taking advantage of it. I feel cheated that we would bend over backwards and punish the wrong parties because this other national was held and treated poorly during a time of crisis. This was the 1st time the nation has delt with something of this magnitude and such large scale, some things were handeled poorly but at the same time, it was an act of war, and the rules of war change everything.

The British woman and her kids got to me since she's over here to better herself and life, made a choice to come over for some reason, brought her kids with, plunked them down in a public school that the population is paying for, and I'm sure she's not paying any tax, getting free health care throught school, and should have known full well that there are certain things we as americans are asked to do that she might not agree with. Instead of keeping her mouth shut, waiting to see the end result or telling her kids to go along with it, or asking school officials to excuse the kids when and if the rule passed, or have her kids stand up, put their hand on their hearts and just stand there and patiently wait it out as a sign of respect, have them mentally say something for England or the US, or explain to her children why we as americans do the things we do, she goes out and shoots her mouth off about her freedoms and liberties being taken away from her and her kids. It got to me because she's over here, like you said, as a guest. She's welcomed here, but yet she feels a need to have us cater to her and her children.

So people these days just don't want to be bother with rules, feeling they can pick and choose what they want and what they feel should only be applied to them. And I'm just tired of it. They make more problems for the rest of us. I have no problem with your view point and see the logic behind personal choice, but at the same time, there were reasons behind all this and the thinking, yet the non-citizens and outsiders had the biggest and loudest say in these matters.

The attitude of America is changing. Before, people came here wanting to change their life and be part of our established system. Today people come here to change our established system and selectivly choose what applies to their life. It shouldn't work like that, and me, being on the inside am getting very tried of people demanding special treatment because they choose to be special, yet want to be part of us.

Nothing personal jargo, you have good ideas, and I'm with you on this on. We will agree to disagree. I can only hope all our systems change for the better, and people get common sense back.

QLD - don't feel bad its a trend. It gets grating fast when you have to hold up a finger count to order off a menu at resturants or have to ask another shopper for help finding things in certain retail shops because you can't communicate with the employees.
My German gets me nowhere...

Old Fossil
12-13-2002, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong


Although I do also find it kind of frustrating that I cannot order something at McDonalds, buy groceries, and do many other things, without having a translator. I don't have anything against any particular ethnic group of people, but I do not like businesses that rely on customer service, hiring people that are not able to understand or speak english on a 3rd grade level. They say now that it won't be long before there will be more people speaking Spanish than English.





The majority of the population of the Western Hemisphere speaks either Spanish or Brazilian Portugese as their first tongue. Three of our states with large populations -- Texas, California, and Florida -- were originally under Spanish and (excepting FL) Mexican control. Those and vast areas of the US Southwest are historically Hispanic. Puerto Rico, a Commonwealth within the US, is first and foremost Spanish-speaking.

I do not understand why it is so hard for my fellow Americans to accept the fact that not everyone here speaks good English. Even harder to comprehend is , if those who complain find it so hard to communicate, why they don't just LEARN a little Spanish so they can order a hamburguesa. I mean, good God, it is taught in most high schools and colleges country-wide. It is not a hard language to learn for non-natives, like Chinese (no offense to our Chinese friends).

Most likely, instead of there being more Spanish-speakers than English-speakers in the US, there will be more who are bilingual. Most educated people from countries outside the US learn more than one language at an early age.

The world is getting smaller, folks, whether you like it or not. Americans must adapt to remain a viable member of the international community.

QLD
12-13-2002, 08:52 PM
I know enough Spanish to get my point across if I need to I imagine.

But I guess the way I feel is, if I moved to France, I would learn French, and speak their language, not expect them to learn mine. Same with any country.

While I do think it is important for people to learn more than one language, it is something that has to be infused at an early age, like they do with English in Japan. The younger you are, the easier it will be to learn. I mean, your average 50 year old doesn't want to learn Spanish to order a hamburger, and why should he? We're in the United States.

It would be fantastic if there were a universal language for everyone on earth, and maybe one day there will be. But right now, most adults do not have the time, nor money to take classes to learn Spanish so that they can order a Big Mac without struggling. While you could just pick up a book, most people cannot teach themselves a new language.

Maybe this doesn't make sense to everyone, and I suspect it doesn't, but it's how myself, and a large number of Americans feel.

Vortex
12-14-2002, 01:26 AM
Its not just spanish that's the issue. Up here in MN but mainly in Downtown Minneapolis and a few of the 1st ring suburbs you need to know Russian, Somolian, Hmong, Arabic, and some Spanish.

I know things are diffent down south in some of the states, but at certain points with all the languages it becomes a disaster to communicate.

The business world conducts its business in English, all pilots are required to work and function in English, and English is already established as most countries 2nd main language. The science world uses English as it base for communication. So in essence English is/or has been the universal mode of communication.

In Iceland that's how the Sweeds, Norwegians, Danes and native Icelanders communicate is through engilsh or that's what it has become as of late. They all share the same base nordic tongue, but over the years they have all modified it, dropped letters and created their own dialects, words and sylables. The words no longer have similar meaning or sounds. Icelanders can sort of understand the other 3 but can't fully communicate, so they rely on english.

Europeans needed to learn 3+ languages because if you travel 50 miles in most directions you're in a new country. Even then its of little help. There are 3-5 differnt dialects in Switzerland alone and for a small country they have problems communicating so their resort to using english in most cases unless they are from the same town or neighboring towns. Germany has a few dialects and northern Germans have trouble understanding the Southern Germans and the same goes for the southern germans. The time I spent in German, I had to re-learn my base of German depending on where I went. I couldn't communicate with the Bavarians since they said I was high German or Norther German. I had to get by with english at points. When I was in Switzerland, I was at a lost in border towns since it was a slurry of multiple languages. French-Italian-German-Romanish. Austria was a little easier, but still my German I learned in 7th grade through college didn't get me very far at times.

Belgium and the Netherlands use English as a base also.

I only use europe as an example since it has so many dialects and languages in a small dense area.

Then again Spanish, from what I got from my Mexican friends, is a monster in itself. A good friend of mine tried to work in Spain for a year, but was struggling with the mother tongue. His town or region had a very differnt spanish than the original spanish from Spain. So even then learning spanish isn't a cure or answer.

Our founding fathers were from all over, yet they settled on one language. Our grandparents or ancestors came here with their mother tongue, yet converted to english to communicate with other ethnic groups. My great grandfather was a mine forman who could speak 13 differnt languages, yet even then with the various dialects and mixes he still relied on english to communicate with the miners.

I ask why change a good system, it's proven that it works?

Jargo
12-15-2002, 06:40 AM
Next to Chinese, English is one of the hardest languages to grasp owing to the peculiarities in grammar and spelling. Other languages have simpler gramatical forms and are easier to grasp which is why French is adopted before English in many places. Given a choice, American English would be adopted before true English since you Americans tend to spell more things phonetically and have ironed out a lot of spelling problems by removing vowels from words. If i was not English speaking the idea of learning English would fill me with dread and I'd sooner learn Spanish. Besides which Spanish sounds better when spoken. It's more lively as a language.
I will say though that i understand QLD's frustrations with services employees having lived in London for a year I found it frustrating that every third person was non English speaking and communications in convenience stores were comical. Like a Monty python sketch most times. British people lag behind Europeans in having a second language. English is taught to Europeans from an early age as a second language but French is only an option from the high school level and most people drop the subject later. leaving the number of dual language british people insultingly low. I don't speak a second language to my shame but the schools i went to never offered languages at all.
The problem with Britain lies in the fact that as a country much like America our roots lie in a feeling of superiority whereby we expect others to toe the line and cowtow to our nationality and all that goes with it. As an island nation we are arrogant in that respect which is one of the reasons we still opt out of Europe because we have a thing about Germans and French people telling us how to live our lives in the same way as I would guess the Americans would have about Mexicans or South americans telling North Americans how to live their lives.
But as has been said the world is shrinking faster than we like to think. Take this message board for example, a couple of years ago it never crossed my mind to speak to people around the world and yet here we are from all corners of the globe converging here to discuss this and other subjects. Remember whren Esperanto was going to be the new uniform language? maybe that went down the drains but something similar is actually happening naturally. Languages are merging in the mish mash of culture swapping via the internet, it won't be too long before some sort of universal language emerges surely?

Vortex
12-15-2002, 11:20 AM
Jargo you pretty much one with what you said.

English isn't easy to learn. I still fail diagraming a sentence or trying to pick out the adjective or other elements. It made learning German a little tough since I had to re-learn english and then figure out German...

Add in the fact some Americans, Scots, Brits, Canadians, Auzzies, have a language of their own. I'd include the Irish, but man...I'm lost with the Gaelic undertones. I have trouble with Scots sometimes. They have a clip to their words, and between that, the speed at which the talk, and tone, I get lost fast. I can only pick out bits and pieces at times. Heck, I sometimes can't understand my Auzzie cousins when they come to visit.

As much as I hate to say it, some in the Black/african american culture here have developed their own system of speaking and form of english. Even caucasion and asian kids are adopting that form of speech. I can refer to the whole Ebonics things a few year back but even then they have a language all their own and they constantly add and change it. I work a 2nd part time job at a local community center for some extra money and free access to the weight room...but I watch the gym and when african american kids, or inner city kids come in to play basketball and when things get heated during a game it sounds like a language all to its own. They have their own words, definitions and there's a melody to the way the talk. I have to ask them to slow down, cut out the swear words and talk to me like I was a teacher or cop. Even then its hard to understand.

Toss in the Spanglish, where its a mix of english and spanish, in the southern states and younger generations and learning basic Spanish goes out the window. They've created their own language.

I too can only hope that at some point we adopt a universal language...I personally push for English since I've got a leg up on that already. Or should we all go back to Latin...*shudder*