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Beast
12-13-2002, 03:56 PM
I just returned from a matinee showing of the latest Star Trek film. I have to say, with as much dread as I had for this film after reading the spoilers about it, I was worried for nothing. The film is one of my Favorite Trek films now, and I'm sure the more I see it, I will appreciate it on the same level as the best Classic Trek films. Beware that I do discuss spoilers.

My biggest worry was, it seemed like they had thrown almost every movie into a blender and hit puree. Like the villians looking like Hellraiser knock-offs. The A-Teamish action scenes in the desert with the Dune Buggy. The head bad guy being a clone of Picard. Even the Data prototype story seemed dreadful. But I am actually pleased with the film.

The Shinzon/Picard story arc is well done. I was impressed with the script and the dialoge for this film. It more then makes up for the terrible Star Trek: Insurrection. The Data storyline I was more worried about. The idea that they planned to kill Data off, was worrysome. I'm glad to announce that unlike Kirk's death in Generations, Data sacrifices himself with a higher purpose.

Very well done, almost had me a bit weepy. Plus the inclusion of B-4 (Before) leaves a chance for Brent Spiner to build the charecter up again from the start, should he continue with the series. Thankfully they changed the charecters name from the awful hokey B-9 (Benign) from the script. And Data/B-4 doesn't sing "Greensleeves", it's now "Blue Skies".

The only complaint I have for the film, is that again Picard and Data become the main cast members. Riker, Troi, Dr. Crusher, Worf, and Geordi become bit parts, overshadowed by the larger parts and plots for Picard and Data. But it works in this case, and I am proud to announce that again there is proof that even numbered Trek films, don't suck. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

wedgeA
12-13-2002, 08:19 PM
JJB,

Considering how venomous you were toward the script, you review really raises my anticipation to see this. In watching TNG films, I have realized that 1) Picard and Data will always the focus of these films, I wonder why they even bother to bring back Crusher and LaForge; and

2) while I have liked the TNG films except for Insurrection, they will always be nothing more than extended TV episodes. I feel that Berman plays it too safe with the franchise, where the Kirk and Co. films took chances. That being said, I thought that First Contact and Generations (yes, I liked it) were pretty good on that scale.

I will catch Nemesis tonight, and chime in later. My anticipation grows...

Beast
12-13-2002, 08:29 PM
Yeah, I even re-read my comments when I got back home. And I still agree with them, the early script and numerous spoilers I read made the film sound like utter garbage. It was amazing to see, that a movie I dreaded seeing turned out so well. Gives me hope for other movies. :)

And here I was worried, that I would be faced with a film that was on the level of the train wreck called Star Trek V. While the extreme focus on Picard and Data does get old, atleast Riker and Troi got some time to grow in this one. To bad that Dr. Crusher, Worf, and Geordi are little more then background charecters. :(

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
12-14-2002, 02:07 AM
Oooh, I have a lot of points to chime in.

First, I did not dislike the movie, however, I am not bursting with excitement all over either.

1) I want to see the movie again though - probably tomorrow, definitely ASAP.

2. I feel like it's forgettable in some ways, like it was not in full color of everything that was Star Trek.

Parts of what I'm going to say next will ring praise, parts will sharply criticize.

The Reman revolution was a worthy cause. Shinzon is as Picard would have been under those circumstances. It was a great topic and a great cause.

Seeing any resemblance to their Vulcan ancestry was nearly impossible with the Remans. They did a great job with makeup, but went almost too far considering the ancestral heritage of the Remans.

The starship battle was the best of ANY of the Star Trek films! I never in my life thought Picard would ram the Enterprise into the enemy, and the whole way that played out was awesome!

I'd hoped to see the Starfleet reinforcement ships arrive to start an even larger engagement, but the Romulans coming in on Picard's side was a nice surprise, and the battle was intense enough, they almost didn't need to make another Dominion War out of this.

Oh - nice nods to the continuity, especially the after-effects of the Dominion Wars!

B-4 was done because Brent Spiner (who helped WRITE THE STORY for this film) had decided Data had become too human and he wanted to character-act as an Android again. I'm sure B-4 will be in the next movie and Brent will play him, but he'll be able to bring back all those child-like discovery moments again - just as Data was in the earliest seasons.

That B-4 was going to download security stuff from the Enterprise was obvious. When Data, posing as him frees Picard - it was a nice surprise. I like it when the plot gets predictable, the heroes act more intelligent than the audience! Nice move.

The flying the Romulan fightercraft through the halls of the ship thing was unexpected and fun. It ties in with the off-roading thing that marked the "A-Team" feel of this film - also all the Remans and Worf shooting and never hitting anything. All they needed would have been Barclay piloting that sleek landing ship along with a chick in a mini-skirt that would immediately run up and kiss Data once they got back aboard :rolleyes: But the jumping the jeep into the ship was cool! The audience in the theater I saw it in all went YAaaaaaayyy!

Some opportunities for passion were lost. A simple scene would have helped so much: Deanna and Will just married, their honey moon a hailstorm of disruptor bolts - when Will turns to go below decks to fight the Reman boarding party, Deanna and he should have had one of those "if this should be the last time I look upon you moments..." I think they did that with Geordi and Data though.

That was awesome how Picard was surprised by Data's last minute rescue that beamed him out!

Shinzon pulling his impaled body along his killing shaft to get that close to Picard was both the most extreme perversity and one of the boldest, images Star Trek has ever provided. Kahn did not go so far! Plus it was very original for Trek: most villains 'blow-up': Kahn, Krugge (fell in lava - then the planet blew up), Cybok was electrocuted into oblivion, Chang, Lursa and B'Tor, Dr. Soran, and Rau'Awlful all blew up. The Borg Queen was melted and Shinzon impaled - only not on what you first thought he'd get stuck on (the spikes around the ultimate weapon controls). True - Shinzon's body blew up - but he was already dead by then.

Beverly had more to say in this movie than she played a part in Insurrection. Her scenes with the Captain were really good actually. She took the part Deanna usually has with the Captain in the ready room. Deanna's nightmare and her use in helping them target the ship with her telepathic connections to the Viceroy were a great use of her character.

The audience cheered in my theater when Riker started kicking some butt.

Worf is typically well used in all the movies. This time they gave him a little rest. Afterall, he's been in more Star Trek hours than any other character, ever.

I liked the dark tone to the movie, but the colors made it pale in a negative sort of way. And did anybody think the location shooting they did for the off-roading seemed a little too bright? Besides, how could the Remans find that situation tolerable? No wonder they were such bad shots - well besides that they were probably ordered to fake the attack.

Oh - there's probably so much more to say.

Did anyone get a good appreciation of the orchestra music? I missed that, but didn't pick up on a theme like First Contact or Insurrection had, specifically tailored to this film.

Birds of Prey fans: Dina Meyer did a bang-up good job in this one, didn't she. Somehow, even with that haircut, she managed to make a very sensual and attractive Romulan.

Beast
12-14-2002, 02:24 AM
Tycho, the people in the dune buggies were the race that lived on the planet, not the remans. Remember, we get a good look at them when the shuttle craft flies away with our heroes. They have brown scaley skin. That would have destroyed the reveal that the Reman's were bad guys, had it been their race chasing them. By the way, you may want to re-read your own post. You never really criticize. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
12-14-2002, 03:17 AM
Then I might like this movie more than I thought I did as I left the theater, numb and in a little shock.

I knew Data would die - that's not it. I knew some spoilers, but tried to stay away from most of them.

So the movie was completely fresh to me. That's very different than going into AOTC with the dialoge practically memorized before the movie premiers, he-he-he.

I knew the plot and dialogue of TPM, too - and that one shocked me a bit too much - in some bad ways until I got used to it and put together the ideas behind it (and started thinking about how it would fit in with what must come to get us to Episode 3).

With AOTC, it was perfect, and everything was exactly as I expected it right from the get-go. I walked out getting an even better taste for exactly what I expected.

With Nemesis, I didn't know what to expect and everything sort of shocked me. In a really great movie, I think you walk out saying "Wow! That was incredible!" like when I first saw Independence Day, The Matrix, or Terminator 2 - or First Contact and Insurrection (which I liked a lot). This one will take some getting used to. But I think it is a good film the more I dwell on it.

Gotta go. I'm going to go watch all the other ones! :crazed:

Jayspawn
12-14-2002, 03:22 AM
I caught the late show this evening. My first impressions. I really liked the film. I'm more of an Original Series fan, but this was a good one. Probably my favorite of the Next Gen films. Other mental notes I have...

- I thought the Picard/Shinzon relationship was well played.

- This was Brent Spiner's better Trek movie. Others are good. This was his best I think. I loved Data's last line "Goodbye." It was the way I always thought Data would die. When Data suprised Picard at the last minute and beamed him over- fantastic! It got me a little emotional.

- I'm glad that Riker and Troi got married. About time! I noticed how they would hold hands when they were sitting or standing together. Great acting by Frakes and Sirtis.

- Crusher, Worf and LaForge have never been main characters, not even in the show. But they are the cast that we like and look forward to see. ex: Sulu, Uhura, Scotty or Checkov. They are not the main cast like Kirk, Spock or Bones but we love them just the same. I liked Worf, LaForge and Crucher's roles in this movie. I thought they had a good amount of screen time and they each played their part.

- I think the relationship between Picard and Riker had a nice fairwell. Just as officers and friends.

- I have to admit that I cringed a little when Picard rammed the Enterprise into the Romulan ship. One starship smashing into another, makes me think of something that Kirk would do.

- Dena Meyer did a great job.

- The 2 different types of Romulans threw me off. They seemed more like 2 seperate species than in any way similar.

- The space fight with the Romulan ships and the Enterprise was the best of any Trek movie.

- As Tycho pointed out, the film's musical score was great! I loved the opening anthem. There were other noticable moments in the film where it really stuck out.

- Guinan and Wesley Crusher's cameos were good. I'm all about contuinity- especially within TV and movies.

- The scene where Picard is looking at a picture of himself as a Starfleet cadet- wearing the uniform seen in "The Motion Picture" Once again, great continuity.

And finally....

- While I think this is the last of the "Next Gen" films, I thought it was nicely wraped up. It kind of leaves space for another film but with Data, Troi and Riker gone...Hmm. I would have liked it if the film ended with the signitures of the cast as seen in "Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country."

- "Generations" was a great film!

AND!!!!!

Now I have to go buy that new Data figure by Art Asylum!

wedgeA
12-14-2002, 05:57 AM
I must say despite all my reservations, I loved the film, definately my favorite of the TNG films. Much of what I loved has been stated, but I want to add a couple of points.

First off, my biggest quibble with the film is that the "violation" of Troi should have been a bit more intense, especially since it set up a great Riker-Viceroy faceoff. However, I understand that they did want an R rating.

A couple of things that I enjoyed were Picard's mid-life crisis, especially with the Argo buggy. Yeah yeah, Prime Directive I know, but the last movie was about that and I didn't like it. I also thought the fact that Picard froze after killing Shinzon was a pretty gutsy move. I am not sure if I agree with, but fans will be arguing that one for awhile, and I like that they had the guts to pull it off. Finally, after reading the script, I thought that the whole B-4 singing would be pure cheese but it was done very well. Spiner played that with the perfect subtlety and it was a very emotional closing.

Beast
12-14-2002, 06:03 AM
Yeah, that popped into my head also. "Wait, the prime directive says to avoid contact with pre-warp civilizations". So they end up flying down a big shuttle, and then to leave even more evidence that there is life out there in the universe, they proceed to drive like maniacs all over the planet in a shiney silver dune buggy and leave tire track evidence everywhere? :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
12-14-2002, 10:41 AM
LOL - about the dune buggy comments.

Data has had a lot of good movie moments though. I'm not sure if this one was his best - but definitely played as his most subtle.

He was both really funny, and 'malfunctioned' as well as coped with new emotions well in Generations. Right down to crying over finding his cat.

In First Contact, he took on the Borg Queen personally - and he did even more than Picard did to save the Enterprise and make sure the Borg were stopped for good! (at least in the Alpha Quadrant).

In Insurrection, I love the imagery of Data swimming with the fish and running around as a floating head - when the rest of his body was actually cloaked. His scout ship piloting was pretty awesome - especially that nerve-wracking spinning dive with Picard and Worf's runabout still attached to his ship. Playing with the child was kind of fun in that one, too. Overall, his role was a lot less important in Insurrection.

In Nemesis, it is Data's curiousity and vulnerability that lure them into the trap, so that much was obvious. But after 3 encounters with Lore, Data's evil twin brother from the TV series, weren't they ready to give up on any of Dr. Soong's other work not trying to destroy the universe once they were put back together themselves? With all the fan references, I'm surprised the incidents with Lore were never brought up. Meanwhile, Brent's performance as B-4 (or when Data pretends to be B-4 - when he innocently asks Shinzon "Go where?" - funny) was very cool. But until the end, I'm not sure this was Data's story. He was cool during all the gun fighting when he was trying to get Picard out of there before he became a personal blood bank for Shinzon. But when Data couldn't open the blast doors to the hanger bay, why didn't he just use his Android strength to rip them open like he'd done to so many doors throughout the TV series. He has 8 times the strength of a human, Reman, or Romulan!

Anyway, his decisions to protect Picard and his actions, like positioning himself when Shinzon drew the knife (why wasn't Worf the first one clued in on that?) and of course Data's end, were all very well written and acted. Brent did a great job!

I just don't know if that topped the time he took the Borg Queen out with the words "Resistance is Futile!" That was classic!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, Worf....

Worf is a main TNG character, much more than Crusher or LaForge are used. He is also the Star Trek character more developed than any, considering the 10 years worth of TV seasons he's starred in, the 2 mates he's joined with and lost (K'Elehr and Jadzia Dax), and the 2 Captains he's served under.

Why he is no longer serving Chancellor Martok as Ambassador to the Federation from the Klingon Empire wasn't addressed. And if he went back to Starfleet, why did he go back to serve on the Enterprise and not the Defiant.

(in the episode of DS9, "change of heart" Worf lets a Cardassian defector die in order to save Jadzia from Jem Hadar wounds, and Starfleet loses their chance to gain all tactical information of the Dominion. Sisko informs Worf that it would cost him his chance to make Captain - though Sisko would have saved his wife too, had he gotten the chance.)

Worf's relationship with Deanna has never been addressed in the movies, save for in Insurrection, when he tells Riker that his feelings for Deanna had always been there - that Will and Deanna are Imzadi, effectively. But we didn't see him talk to Deanna, nor anyone relate to Worf how they felt for him, knowing that his old girlfriend was marrying, while his own wife had died not that many years ago.

Worf needs another movie - First Contact was his best one for sure!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess what I'm getting at is that First Contact still rocks!

It's a tough choice. But I'm going back to see Nemesis again today!

hango fett
12-14-2002, 06:45 PM
god, that was a good movie. loved all of it. espcially when picard order them to go straight into shinzon's ship! that was awsome! i about cried when data died....he was my 2nd fav next to picard. i give it a 9.5 out of 10
h

Eternal Padawan
12-15-2002, 07:40 AM
"Goodbye..."


Man. What a powerful movie. I absolutely enjoyed it. I think the producers are realizing they don't have a series to fall back on anymore to fill in the blanks and are taking larger strides as far as storytelling and continuity with these characters lives. The marriage, the new commision/ship for Riker, Data's end, all advancing these characters as much as a season of episodes could. I can't wait for the next one.

Hiring Logan to write this was one of the best decisions they could make. Bringing in fresh blood to showcase these characters. I loved all the lines that referenced these characters long lives together as a family. When Riker remarked on Data's whistling in the tree from the very first Farpoint adventure, I got a little verklempt.

Bravo a film well done. I can't wait to see ST12 ;)

Lman316
12-15-2002, 10:24 AM
Absolutely loved it! One of the best movies that I've ever seen, and I'm not limiting that to just Star Trek films - even though it is now my favorite Trek movie, with First Contact coming in second.
It was a very powerful movie, had a lot of action, and I believe that it warrants a second theater viewing for me :). I also enjoyed the comedy a lot. I love Worf's "How astute" line, or Picard's, "I'll be in the gym," and "Shut up." Very funny :D.

I do, however, have a few very minor "problems" with this movie. First, is one that Tycho said: Why was there no mention of Lore? There should have been some question like, "Could this be Lore?" And then they could give reasons as why it wasn't. To just leave that out....I don't know. But again, it's nothing major and couldn't ruin my opinion of this movie.

Second (again something to do with Data), LaForge asked him something like, "How do you feel about that?" to which Data replied, "I feel nothing" or "I don't feel anything." It was my understanding that Data had had the emotion chip since Generations. So shouldn't he have some kind of "feeling"?

Third:
- Guinan and Wesley Crusher's cameos were good. I'm all about contuinity- especially within TV and movies.
Yes, Guinan was fine, but as far as continuity goes, I'm not too sure about Wesley. Last I knew, when Crusher left the series, he was going to become a Traveller, going to different realms and whatnot. I remember this because his mother told him to take a sweater :p. But in the movie we see him in what looks like Starfleet's new dress uniform. So, what's up with that? (Again, nothing major...could never take away from my good opinions of this film).

And last but not least, and probably the funniest...how in the
(-explitive-) did Janeway ever make it to admiral! :p
I do realize that on the last episode of Voyager that she was an admiral and she went back in time to save her ship and its crew. But I didn't remember that they made her an admiral when she came back through the Borg trans-warp hub. Did they? Did I just maybe block it out? :p (I do like Voyager, by the way, but it's my least favorite of all the Treks out there....except for Enterprise, which I will not watch at all).

Okay, now that those are out of the way, I have a question. Everyone keeps talking about "the next one". Is anyone really sure that there is going to be a "next one"? I keep hearing and reading on ads: "A generation's final voyage..." Wouldn't that mean that Nemesis is the last Next Generation film?

End...:D

mrmiller
12-16-2002, 10:13 AM
I really liked this movie as well. The final battle reminded much of the Classic Kirk vs. Kahn duel. This one ranks right up there. Actually, I wan't impressed with the first half of the movie, but from the point where Data first rescues Picard it is awesome. I liked how Picard "froze" at the end, as if he killed his own son, or himself. It was as if Picard relized that if the path of his life was different, it could be him at the end of that stick.

Another cool thing about it was the fact that it focused on only a few characters. I hate when they try to get all the other charactors major screen time, and it distracts from the main story. That's one reason why I like TOS ( and starting to to like Enterprise) better than the series that followed. They stick to the main characters. No more stories about a side character and her relationship to her mother, or some other characters whiny kid. And in a 2 hour movie, it think it's more important to keep the story focused.

A great move any Star Trek fan should see. (especially after insurection :rolleyes: )

=MATT=

BanthaPoodoo
12-16-2002, 03:49 PM
I havn't seen it yet, but as you can see by my DVD collection, I am a fan of anything Star Trek. I really dont think they have made a bad movie in this franchise (although saving whales was a little far fetched. It did provide some great humor though!!!)

The only thing I think is getting played out is destroying the Enterprise every TNG movie (I assume thats what happens in this one, why should it be any different) That's getting quite old. Seems to be some sort of running joke in the films like GL cutting off body parts. If they didnt blow up the Ent every movie, I think the world would be a better place.

icatch9
12-16-2002, 04:38 PM
I enjoyed this movie as well. I'm not going to get into the how fors and why nots of it all. I liked it and that's that. One thig that has bothered me for the longest time is thier slogan of "A generations final jouney begins". What the hell does that mena? This didn't seam much like a begining of a jouney. More like a "stand a lone" episode. I expected a cliff hanger kind of ending like WOk and SFS. At the endo of those two you knew something else had to happen. Especially at the end of WOK.

Anyway, where do they go from here? With Riker haveing his own ship it would have to be a corney run in to get him back on the ship. Same goes from Troy. Any thoughts or rumers out there?

master jedi
12-16-2002, 07:01 PM
I thought Nemesis was a huge pile of c*@p. And it's an even numbered Trek movie so I don't understand why it sucked so bad. It was worse the Insurrection and Generations.

Tycho
12-16-2002, 07:24 PM
Just that we're way past spoilers with some of what's been posted, so I'm going to assume they're ok...there's your warning.

They did not blow up the ship in every TNG movie. They didn't this time, and they haven't since they got rid of the "D" in Generations.

Meanwhile, the crewers available are as follows:

USS Titan:
Capt. William Troi
Cmdr. Deanna Troi

USS Enterprise:
Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
Cmdr. Worf
Cmdr. Beverly Crusher
Cmdr. Geordi La Forge
B-4 Android Research Project

Deep Space Nine:
Col. Kira Nerys
Lt. Cmdr. Julian Bashir
Ens. Ezri Dax
Ens. Nog
Reporter Jake Sisko

Earth: Starfleet
Admiral Kathryn Janeway
Chief Miles O'Brien
Doctor Joe

Earth: Retired-Repatriated
Cmdr. Chakotay
Lt. B'Elanna Paris
Lt. Tom Paris

USS Voyager
Cmdr. Tuvok
Lt. Harry Kim

Cardassia Prime:
Legate Garack

Kronos:
Chancellor Martok

Ferenganar:
Grand Nagus Rom

Bajor:
Prime Minister Shakar

The Dominion:
Odo

Missing in Action:
Capt. Benjamin Sisko
Gul Dukat


Rick Berman said they were looking at doing a mixed-crew movie.

The way I see it, TNG has life in it with 2 ships.

The crew of the TITAN could have a movie with:

Capt. William Troi
Cmdr. Tuvok (First Officer)
Cmdr. Troi (ship's Counselor)
Lt. Kim (ship operations)
Chief O'Brien (comissioned? Chief Engineer)
Dr. Bashir (CMO)

The crew of the Enterprise could have a movie with:

Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
Cmdr. Worf
Cmdr. Beverly Crusher
Cmdr. Geordi La Forge
Ens. Ezri Dax (ship's counselor)
Lt. Kim (ship operations)
B-4 Android Research Project

Deep Space Nine could have a movie with:

Capt. Tuvok
Col. Kira Nerys
a new science officer......
Lt. Cmdr. Julian Bashir
Ens. Ezri Dax (station counselor)
Ens. Nog
Reporter Jake Sisko

Returning visitor Odo

....and find the lost Captain Benjamin Sisko


In my opinion, the crew of the U.S.S. Titan sounds the most interesting. This group of people could have the most fun in new adventures.

If Deep Space Nine could bring in Worf again somehow, it would get better. I like the idea of Tuvok taking command, because I'd love to see the reaction of " Vulcan logic" to a mission that deals with the current whereabouts of Captain Sisko. I think it would also be interesting to see how Tuvok and Kira deal with each other. But Worf is Picard's First Officer now, and I think it would be hard for him to leave the Captain, unless it is some kind of 'matter of honor' for Worf to help find his former Captain. Star Trek 11: The Search for Sisko!

If they ever did a movie with the crew of the U.S.S. Voyager, I think that Admiral Janeway would recall her whole former crew including the ex-Starfleet and Seven. Admiral's perogative. Odo might join them on a Gamma-Quadrant mission for Dominion negotiations. They might need B-4 for something. They might search for Sisko, so O'Brien might join them as Engineer for some reason. This could be a cool crew, too - but it would really just be a Voyager movie, with some guest stars.


I think I'd go with the Titan's crew although I want some kind of further resolution with Captain Sisko.

Tycho
12-16-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by master jedi
I thought Nemesis was a huge pile of c*@p. And it's an even numbered Trek movie so I don't understand why it sucked so bad. It was worse the Insurrection and Generations.

Oh, for this I have to know "why?".

I even wonder if we just have a Star Wars fan here that can't stand there being any other challenge to the Force out there....

Get ready for some Vulcan Logic, coming from one direction or another....:rolleyes:

icatch9
12-17-2002, 08:51 AM
Good movie ideas. Still, I don't think we'll be seeing any movie that doesn't have the Enterprise as the main "wessel" (as Checkov would say :D). It's kind of that marque thing you know. A mixed crew would be cool, but kind of corney. One thing it doesn't seem you thought of wich in my opinon has the best possibilities and the most logic without being corney is Q. With a flick of his fingers he can bring every crew member from every show to one place (Even Kirk and or Archer). Wouldn't that be something :). Theres your movie. Star Trek: Q.

Thoughts??

mrmiller
12-17-2002, 08:56 AM
I'm with you Tycho- when someone leave a statement like that (especially in a thread that is mainly positive) some explination is needed. :confused:

On the "Star Trek: Q" thing. I think it would be cool if Q gathered all the starfleet captians and put them in a deathmatch arena like Unreal Tournement or Quake. Then kept respawning them until 30 kills. Then we'd know who the best captian was! :crazed:

=MATT=

scruffziller
12-17-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Tycho


B-4 was done because Brent Spiner (who helped WRITE THE STORY for this film) had decided Data had become too human and he wanted to character-act as an Android again. I'm sure B-4 will be in the next movie and Brent will play him, but he'll be able to bring back all those child-like discovery moments again - just as Data was in the earliest seasons.

Birds of Prey fans: Dina Meyer did a bang-up good job in this one, didn't she. Somehow, even with that haircut, she managed to make a very sensual and attractive Romulan.

Yes it was refreshing to see the old Data again. But it was somewhat weird that he just didn't use his emotions, no explanation at all.
However it is going to be strange if they do make something with B4 in it. It's Data yet it is not. And I am very sad that Data is gone.
And WHOAH, I had no idea that was Dina Meyer.

And pretty much DITTO on JJB's review.

master jedi
12-17-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Oh, for this I have to know "why?".

I even wonder if we just have a Star Wars fan here that can't stand there being any other challenge to the Force out there....

Get ready for some Vulcan Logic, coming from one direction or another....:rolleyes:

There's a link at aintitcool.com that pretty much sums up how I feel about Star Trek Nemesis.
Here's the link to the review. (http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=14008)

You couldn't be more wrong about me being a Star Wars fan that can't stand there being any other challenge to the Force. I love Star Trek just as much as everybody else. You're getting mad that I didn't like Nemesis and you can't handle it so you're just trying to take it out on the first person who doesn't like Nemesis.
Dude, just except the fact that there are people out there that have different views and opinions on things than you.

Boba Rhett
12-17-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Oh, for this I have to know "why?".

I even wonder if we just have a Star Wars fan here that can't stand there being any other challenge to the Force out there....

Get ready for some Vulcan Logic, coming from one direction or another....:rolleyes:


Why? How about because it did? I didn't realise that people weren't entitled to their own opinions here without expecting to practically get their words forcefully shoved back down their throats. He didn't like it and you can't stand that he says he didn't like it. Who's the fanboy here?

As for reasons why he didn't enjoy it, how about,

The dune buggy. Argo, was it? What the hell was that all about. The enterprises new toy is a dune buggy. Right. Oh, and what a coincidence that they happen to be visiting a planet were everyone rides around in similair looking dune buggys! What good luck!

What happened to not exposing primitive cultures to advanced tech? Why did they even bother with the buggy when they flew down in a spaceship then used it in front of everyone along with lasers?

What was up with the way they filmed the desert scenes? I realise they probably made it look very grainy on purpose but it just came across as annoying to the eyes.

The whole Troi, "violated" story was poorly executed. They should have included the second attack scene. It would have really helped.

Michael Dorn.... what. the. hell. He was reduced to, "token black man" in Nemisis. He had like three lines. Most of which were him whining while drunk. And how did he get back onto the Enterprise anyway? :confused:

Using the Enterprise to ram his ship... right. The other ship still had most of it's shields but I guess they don't work against slow moving, blunt objects.

Harry Knowles points out a lot of these things but even I think he was to hard on it.

Despite all these things and my opinion that the movie was bad, I still enjoyed myself. I'm not punching myself about the head and nashing my teeth because I went to see it. And what does it matter if master jedi or I didn't like it? Is it just so terribly wrong that our opinions don't match yours that you feel the need to start screaming about fanboyism? I like Star Trek, I really do. I just thought this movie was a joke.

And then going a further step and saying anything master jedi further says in this thread will be more of the same and that no one should pay attention to it. Please. Grow up.

wedgeA
12-17-2002, 04:31 PM
My $.2 on some of the issues discussed,

Regarding the Prime Directive, I was thinking that it meant that the Federation does not interfere the development of other societies. I don't believe that the fight as seen in the movie would necessarily be considered a violation. It was an isolated incident that would unlikely yield a major impact on that society. It is not like they went into the alien settlements and took over or introduced phasers, etc. They were on a search mission well outside of any populated areas. The alternative would have been to go in disguise on foot, which would have been more risky if they were captured. I think that using the Argo was their best alternative to get in and out quickly and safely. Remember, the transporters were questionable.

As for the plotholes, I don't know if had been mentioned here, but transporter goes down after Picard beams over, so there would have been no need for Data to give to him the personal transporter before he went over. There are other things that are mistakes, but they are in all Trek films. The entire credibility of ST2's ending is based on a viewer's willingness to accept that a scientific tool with such destructive power as Genesis does not have an off-switch.

Tycho
12-17-2002, 04:37 PM
Well, I appologize to Master Jedi and Boba Rhett for "explicitly posting that they could not have a different opinion than my own."

I'm sure I did that. Somebody just needs to help me find my quote :rolleyes:

I KNOW I did say:


Oh, for this I have to know "why?".

I even wonder if we just have a Star Wars fan here that can't stand there being any other challenge to the Force out there....

Get ready for some Vulcan Logic, coming from one direction or another....



Boba Rhett did provide some very good observations I have to agree with (I'll come back to those in a moment).

I also said I EVEN WONDER if we have a SW fan here that can't stand...[Star Trek].

That obviously singles out Boba Rhett and Master Jedi as a personal attack upon them. Didn't everyone who saw my post KNOW that? :rolleyes:

This I say in jest. I have nothing against Master Jedi or Boba Rhett. However, I've seen countless things online and even on T-shirts like "10 Reasons Why Star Trek Sucks" - and no lightsabers, no Force, etc... are a lot of them. Additionally, the two giants always seem to have their fans fighting over them, putting the other one down, leaving fans of both (like myself, Boba Rhett, Master Jedi, and probably everyone posting in this threat up to this point) kind of caught in the middle. The "I'm a Klingon Jedi thing kind of applies to some of us."

But I find myself defending Star Wars on ArtAsylum's Trek board where I've started participating (as Tycho) and where Trek fans are bashing Lucas' fans as 'base, brainless, war mongers' who can't appreciate anything more dramatic, intelligent, or cultured than an action flick.' We all know Star Wars means a lot more to us than that. But I've found SW fans to be just as intolerant of Trek - saying it's 'too cerebral, too techno-babble, too conservative in using action,' - like it's good to be dumb, impatient, or ignorant?

My comment "I EVEN WONDER if we have a SW fan here that can't stand...[Star Trek]," was to pre-empt that. I don't know why Master Jedi and Boba Rhett took that personally :confused:

I did let emotion and frustration with others not like myself influence the tone of my post. I don't think I should appologize though - I like the fact that it brought out this explanation that I'm typing now. There are others posting in this thread that might want to comment on it.

LTBasker
12-17-2002, 04:57 PM
Tycho, it's best to leave those things alone. I've seen alot of those type of battles and usually they end quicker and alot more peacefully when whoever's starting things is just ignored.

It's kinda like in Trouble with Tribbles when the Klingons are trying to rile up Scotty and his fellow crewmates, just without the huge fight. :)

Tycho
12-17-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Boba Rhett


As for reasons why he didn't enjoy it, how about,

The dune buggy. Argo, was it? What the hell was that all about. The enterprises new toy is a dune buggy. Right. Oh, and what a coincidence that they happen to be visiting a planet were everyone rides around in similair looking dune buggys! What good luck!

Possibly they scanned the planet and constucted that dune buggy base on what they saw in their scans - so it was not a coincidence. In any event, I'm sure the movie would have been improved tremendously by making a realistic time lapse occur while Geordi built a dune buggy up to the away team's specs.




What happened to not exposing primitive cultures to advanced tech? Why did they even bother with the buggy when they flew down in a spaceship then used it in front of everyone along with lasers?

Good point. I thought about that too. I think Wedge kind of answers the question. It all depends really if you, as a viewer, liked dune-buggy off-road racing. Since off-road driving is a personal past time of mine, I said "Yee-haaw!"



What was up with the way they filmed the desert scenes? I realise they probably made it look very grainy on purpose but it just came across as annoying to the eyes.

VERY TRUE. I thought the same thing. I wondered if it was intentional, or their crew didn't know how to work their cameras. I decided on the intentional part - still, it was hard on the eyes and I suppose it would look like Tatooine if they didn't do something with the colors. All in all, I'll accept it since it probably would have looked way too much like Tatooine otherwise.



The whole Troi, "violated" story was poorly executed. They should have included the second attack scene. It would have really helped.

What was the 2nd attack scene? I don't know anything about this.




Michael Dorn.... what. the. hell. He was reduced to, "token black man" in Nemisis. He had like three lines. Most of which were him whining while drunk. And how did he get back onto the Enterprise anyway? :confused:


I agree - with some of it. Worf is one of my all-time favorite Trek characters. He's a Klingon played by a black actor, not a black man. Geordi LaForge is "the token black man" in this movie, but since the plot was a Picard-Data story, neither Worf nor Cmdr. La Forge were that important to explore. The question is whether a film that primarily stars LeVar Burton would fly? Black men in film excel like Denzyl Washington, Wesley Snipes, and Will Smith to name a few. I'm sure that Burton could pull off a film with Snipes or Smith caliber (Washington is a notch above the rest of black male lead actors for sure!) But in Star Trek, Avery Brooks (aka Captain Sisko, is the black male star above stars). I eagerly wait to see a movie with him in it period. His skin color does not matter in that regard. I am white, but Captain Sisko is one of my main hero characters I can think of, and I'm a Niner on top of everything else Star Trek.

That all being said, if they want to do a Trek MOVIE with a black male lead, Geordi is fine and everything, but I want CAPTAIN SISKO! (with Gul Dukat as the principal movie villain, too!) Let's find "What you leave behind..." !!! :)





Using the Enterprise to ram his ship... right. The other ship still had most of it's shields but I guess they don't work against slow moving, blunt objects.



Who knows? Maybe they had Gungan technology. :crazed:




Harry Knowles points out a lot of these things but even I think he was to hard on it.

Who the heck is this Harry Knowles guy?? (I know the site "Aint it cool news") and why is this Harry so revered?

Master Jedi did point to his review. I wonder if he saw the movie BEFORE he read the review. I obviously did. But I will go and read 'Resident Expert Harry's' views on everything and come back and tell you what I think of him. I do know he thought he was real smart and George Lucas sued him. Right? :happy:





Despite all these things and my opinion that the movie was bad, I still enjoyed myself. I'm not punching myself about the head and nashing my teeth because I went to see it. And what does it matter if master jedi or I didn't like it? Is it just so terribly wrong that our opinions don't match yours that you feel the need to start screaming about fanboyism? I like Star Trek, I really do. I just thought this movie was a joke.

That's cool. I might have taken a stab at Star WARS fanboyism, but I'm a Force-fanboy and proud of it. I'm also a Trek fanboy. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'd get sick if I went out to the football game with a Broncos helmet tattooed to my bear chest and kept screaming at the top of my lungs... So I'm as 'normal' as any "fan" is.




And then going a further step and saying anything master jedi further says in this thread will be more of the same and that no one should pay attention to it. Please. Grow up.

I said that? Where?

master jedi
12-17-2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Well, I appologize to Master Jedi and Boba Rhett for "explicitly posting that they could not have a different opinion than my own."

I'm sure I did that. Somebody just needs to help me find my quote :rolleyes:

I KNOW I did say:



Boba Rhett did provide some very good observations I have to agree with (I'll come back to those in a moment).

I also said I EVEN WONDER if we have a SW fan here that can't stand...[Star Trek].

That obviously singles out Boba Rhett and Master Jedi as a personal attack upon them. Didn't everyone who saw my post KNOW that? :rolleyes:

This I say in jest. I have nothing against Master Jedi or Boba Rhett. However, I've seen countless things online and even on T-shirts like "10 Reasons Why Star Trek Sucks" - and no lightsabers, no Force, etc... are a lot of them. Additionally, the two giants always seem to have their fans fighting over them, putting the other one down, leaving fans of both (like myself, Boba Rhett, Master Jedi, and probably everyone posting in this threat up to this point) kind of caught in the middle. The "I'm a Klingon Jedi thing kind of applies to some of us."

But I find myself defending Star Wars on ArtAsylum's Trek board where I've started participating (as Tycho) and where Trek fans are bashing Lucas' fans as 'base, brainless, war mongers' who can't appreciate anything more dramatic, intelligent, or cultured than an action flick.' We all know Star Wars means a lot more to us than that. But I've found SW fans to be just as intolerant of Trek - saying it's 'too cerebral, too techno-babble, too conservative in using action,' - like it's good to be dumb, impatient, or ignorant?

My comment "I EVEN WONDER if we have a SW fan here that can't stand...[Star Trek]," was to pre-empt that. I don't know why Master Jedi and Boba Rhett took that personally :confused:

I did let emotion and frustration with others not like myself influence the tone of my post. I don't think I should appologize though - I like the fact that it brought out this explanation that I'm typing now. There are others posting in this thread that might want to comment on it.

The reason I took it personally is that you quoted me and I just thought you were singling me out because of that. Sorry about that.

I don't like those guys who make those top 10 reasons why star trek sucks. A trek fan could say Star Wars sucks because it doesn't have Borg. Both Star Trek & Star Wars are great. Each has their own thing that make them great.

Nemesis is good but when I compare it to other Trek movies I'm disappointed in it. That doesn't mean someone else feels the same way.

I'll have to watch Nemesis several more times to make my absolute final opinion on it but the 1st time I saw it it just didn't seem all that great.

Tycho
12-17-2002, 11:42 PM
"But the first time I watched it, it just didn't feel all that great."

Know what? I can totally relate. I was a bit stunned and numb when I left the theater. Then as I was thinking about it to post my review, I definitely remembered all its attributes and pieced together more of the plot (as it was first a bit of a mystery - like what does B-4 have to do with Romulus, what does Picard have to do with a Reman revolution?) I definitely wanted to see the movie again for the cool action, but placed in the context of me now knowing what is going on and why, it was all the more cooler!

The 2nd viewing changed my perspective on it a lot! I think I was like 30% more favorable to the film on my 2nd viewing.

It was the same way with The Phantom Menace, in spite of reading that book before I saw the movie. However, I liked AOTC from the get-go. "Clones" is for sure the totally superior movie to any we've been discussing - so there is something to be said for first impressions. But Nemesis rocks and upon 2nd viewing it might be more action-packed and cooler than First Contact!

A nice job by Stuart Baird, Brent Spiner, and John Logan.

2-1B
12-22-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by Jayspawn
- I have to admit that I cringed a little when Picard rammed the Enterprise into the Romulan ship. One starship smashing into another, makes me think of something that Kirk would do.


I understand what you're saying, but what I took from it is that Picard HAD to do something different as Shinzon was operating on what he "knew" Picard would do. :)

I'm only interested in TNG, so maybe this is common knowledge but I have to ask:
I noticed a list of different Federation vessels on a computer screen, one of them was the U.S.S. Archer.
Is that meant to be named for Scott Bakula's character?

vulcantouch
12-26-2002, 12:00 PM
. . .but i still only ended up repeating a tiny portion of what others've already remarked :) anyhoo mine's over on the Hump (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=207045#post207045) :)

br: "What was up with the way they filmed the desert scenes? I realise they probably made it look very grainy on purpose"
-indeed; any perusal of indieflix (or even such mainstream fare as Saving Private Ryan's color-suppressed, staccato-motioned normandy sequence) reveals a wide range of shooting & processing techniques, any of which are available for a big-budget flik like Nemesis to choose from intentionally :)
vt

Tycho
12-27-2002, 06:27 AM
While you write creatively so one has to figure out what the heck your point is in the first place, VT, I read your review and aside from a great humorous tone, I have to disagree with it.

You did your best to make it funny (your end) and in getting there you had to be negative (your means).

You could have gone the same route (your end) with a positive review if you liked the movie (I'm not saying you did or didn't - I'm not sure I could tell by your review...)

But the Scimitar was as cool and unique looking as pistachio ice cream double-scooped then twirled. Even all the nuts were aboard!

Picard's clone was as well played by Tom Hardy as the other half of a good pickle when you cut it in two.

The Romulans were explored into the future instead of into the past to suggest the question wasn't how many of them do you need to change a lightbulb, but rather how bright is the new lamp?

Admiral Janeway was not discrediting her own successes against the Borg, but paying her respects to Captain Picard in a teasing tone, congratulating him on having stayed the Starfleet course with such enemies such as the Sona, instead of spending his time learning what the Baku discovered replaces Rogaine.

Worf's reasons for being there were not explained, but one would think that he really wanted to go to Deanna's Betazoid ceremony so that he actually COULD run around naked and chase through the hills the shaved and bear-greased wild Targ named "Phaser" that he got them as a wedding present. They couldn't shoot the scene as it was deemed cruel to both animals and the viewing audience.

I mean most of these minor problems with the movie that you point out all have perfectly reasonable explanations. You don't have to go criticizing the movie just so you can type something funny.



;) Ah-haha-hah-hah-haa!

mrmiller
12-27-2002, 09:05 AM
Huh? I think I just went Cross-eyed :stupid:
Thanks Tycho! :D

=MATT=

vulcantouch
12-27-2002, 11:44 AM
tych: "one has to figure out what the heck your point is"
-you're kidding, right? it isn't perfectly obvious that my "point" is to joke around while sayin nemesis Numbisucked? but as always, if there's anything specific i say that's unclear feel free to axe, i'm always happy to clarify :)

"The Romulans were explored into the future instead of into the past to suggest the question wasn't how many of them do you need to change a lightbulb, but rather how bright is the new lamp?"
-speakin of clarifying, plz do so re what this quote's getting at ;)

"you had to be negative"
-what i Had to do was call it as i saw it. you think i Want to dislike Any trek movie? hell i'd much rather they were All "luvable", but if they ain't they ain't. in the context of critiquing, positivity for its own sake is an unproductive lie.

"Scimitar was as cool and unique looking"
-while i wouldn't kick a brand new micromachine of it outta bed, it's not on my shortlist of mms galoob i mean artasylum should make :zzz: the concept drawings of it look fine but onscreen it's just a sullen, shapeless mess. some things are better on paper i guess :p
considering numisux's lackluster boxoffice maybe paramount'd consider yall's idea for a "combined crew" movie featuring dudes from all 3 shows to inject some life into this tng movie snoozefest, instead of their usual dismissing of ds9 & voy as unmarketable "also-rans" forgotten in overrated tng's wake.
otherwise tv seems to be the best medium for trek; the movies can't decide whether to gear themselves to knowledgable trekkies or more general audiences by ignoring or contradicting so much trek canon that they poke outta the trekiverse like sore thumbs. and the middle-ground compromise they try to plow is too often just dull. with so much trek canon (~500 hours at this point), a big part of trek's ongoing artistic challenge has become to acheive within or around what's already been established without breaching it- or, if you do, find a clever or compelling way to do it. overall Numisux did neither :(
vt

jedi master999
12-31-2002, 01:37 PM
i really enjoyed star trek nemesis i have seen it twice. i thought the movie was great. i believe it wouldve been better if they diddnt cut almost an hour of the movie. i did enjoy generations and thought fc was great insurection is probably the best odd movie out there but in my opinion nemesis was the best tng film to date. i thought that shinzons ship was great i had the smae feeling at the end of nemesis as i did twok. i also think this was a great way to say farewell to tng cast although we might see worf in the next movie if its a ds9 movie

LTBasker
12-31-2002, 07:19 PM
I still haven't seen it yet but I was wondering, is there a scene with Picard's clone (Shinzon?) holding a knife just like in the movie posters? On the posters it looks like he's about to dramatically make a sandwich...

smurfvader
01-06-2003, 08:33 PM
This movie sucked. There were so many problems with it, I'll try and list a few here.

When the Enterprise picked up the positronic signal and Data, Worf and Picard were on the planet they were attacked by the race living on the planet. Shinzon later commented that this was a trap for them. Why? He wants Picard's blood so he decide's to have him killed on the planet? Also if they had died then B4 wouldn't have been able to gain access the info that Shinzon wanted.
The picture of Picard in Starfleet was a cntinuity error as he had hair when he was in Starfleet.
The scene where Troi was violated and then later used to find Shinzon seemed forced. It was like (John Logan) wrote himself into a hole and thought okay how can the Enterprise find the Scimitar, I know we'll have Troi attacked and then she can use her telepathy to find them.
Dina Meyers role also seemed forced, like they decided to throw her in at the last minute.
The movie was very uneven. I can't tell if it was a bad script, poor editing or because the writer was a fan, but the director has never seen an episode.

JIm

Tycho
01-06-2003, 10:21 PM
Lt.Basker: Shinzon used the knife at first to draw his own blood to give the knife with an obvious DNA sample to Picard, so that he could have Beverly test it to make sure he was the real deal: a clone of Picard.

Smurfvader: maybe as a younger cadet, he had to shave his head military style for some mission or another. All they wanted to do was further Tom Hardy's believability as Picard's clone.

I assume that the Scimitar could have been cloaked and monitoring Picard's progress where B-4's body was found. If he was killed, well that also fit some of Shinzon's wishes too, but they could have easily over-powered the aliens and taken Picard's freshly killed corpse up to the Scimitar and drained it of blood to keep Shinzon alive. The Enterprise either never would have known the ship was there, or as you saw in the movie, it wouldn't have stood much of a chance against the Scimitar.

Either way, Shinzon had nothing to lose.

Your other criticisms stand where I might not be so quick to disagree with them.

I truly hope that you could enjoy the movie as entertainment though - that's what it's meant for.

I liked Nemesis a lot!

smurfvader
01-07-2003, 06:11 PM
I truly hope that you could enjoy the movie as entertainment though - that's what it's meant for

That's the problem, I couldn't enjoy it because it wasn't entertaining. I kept thinking how uneven the movie was. And as for Picard shaving his head, Starfleet isn't exactly the military. Also I just didn't think Tom Hardy looked all that much like Stewart. Shave any guys head and stick them next to Stewart and you'll see a resemblance. I felt he needed to have more mannerisms like Picard. The way you sit or move your arms aren't always a result of your environment and have a lot more to do with genetics.



I assume that the Scimitar could have been cloaked and monitoring Picard's progress where B-4's body was found. If he was killed, well that also fit some of Shinzon's wishes too, but they could have easily over-powered the aliens and taken Picard's freshly killed corpse up to the Scimitar and drained it of blood to keep Shinzon alive. The Enterprise either never would have known the ship was there, or as you saw in the movie, it wouldn't have stood much of a chance against the Scimitar

Yes, but he wanted Picard to know who he was and that wouldn't have happened if he were dead. Plus Shinzon wanted all the information that the Enterprise was carrying and he couldn't get that without B4 or someone giving it to him.

JIm
JIm

wedgeA
01-07-2003, 07:43 PM
smurfvader,

I don't recall Shinzon saying that he placed B4 on that planet as a trap. I thought it was merely bait to bring the Enterprise close to Romulus, as well as placing a mole on board the ship. I don't think any harm was intended for Picard on that planet.

As for bald Picard cadet: there is an episode of TNG where a young cadet Picard is shown with hair. Also, I read the script, and originally, Shinzon was supposed to have hair. While it is an error, the script contained other errors which were thankfully corrected in the final film.

smurfvader
01-08-2003, 07:02 PM
there is an episode of TNG where a young cadet Picard is shown with hair
Two actually. One is Tapestry in which he relives his life without having been stabbed in the heart and another that I can't remember the name of and takes place many years after his cadet days. It has a flashback of Picard and Bev walking to a Morgue or hospital bed where she is going to identify the body of Jack Crusher.

JIm

Darth Sinister
01-12-2003, 11:34 PM
Ok, I finally got to see this movie today.....it took my theatre too long to get this one. I really liked this movie, for one reason being that it's a Star Trek movie and I'll take more adventures whenever I can get them....number two, it was just plain good.

The only problem I had was showing that picture of him as a cadet, but it wasn't that big a deal. The idea of that type of bio-weapon freaked me out because this world isn't far from having such a weapon.

Data's decision was very well done....the emotion that was displayed because of it was also done well. Picard's face said it all without saying a word. As I type this I am humming "Blue Skies"...just realized it. Data was my second favorite character in all of Trekdom, but it is actually Brent Spiner who fuels that character and I look forward to seeing what he does with B-4 in the future.

I have read some of the negative comments on this movie and they aren't very well thought out or they weren't paying much attention to it to begin with. B-4 was the trap, not the planet's inhabitants. Worf's reasons for being there are obvious, they are all just together in the Enterprise making the trip to Betazed(?). Wesley's appearance does need some explaining but in the end I just don't care that he was there at all.

Great movie, I hope they can make a show or something out of the USS Titan. Anything in the future will be great because it's like seeing old friends again, just like Star Wars...like I said..I'll take them any way I can. Later.

JediTricks
01-27-2003, 08:40 PM
Well, I've finally seen the film, after over a month of having no time or no money or both, I finally caught it at a theater near me... with the DUMBEST snackbar workers ever! Anyway, I've kept relatively spoiler-free from this film including reviews and such and I don't think it would have made a difference in this case.

Here's how I felt... this film was better than Generations, but it still felt very thin and not well-directed; basically, it wasn't enough to even fill out an entire 1-hour TV episode, much less a 2-hour movie. The whole plot feels like contrivance after contrivance, the sets all looked poorly designed and small in a big-budget way (this was the first time in 35 years I've felt the Enterprise's corridors were boring places to be), and the film hinged on several plots which didn't really focus on the real threats or situations. Then it also forgot tons of TNG past-story (heck, Picard wasn't even bald 20 years before this film was supposed to have taken place) but that's more the "insider" viewpoint. There was no reason for half the stuff that happened, and any interesting stuff seemed to have been put on the back burner for the central plot. What was the point of this film anyway? Shinzon was real angry for some reason, wanted to destroy Romulus and Earth, Picard didn't want that to happen. If Picard wanted to do something different, then maybe he should have had Riker, LaForge, Data, Troi, Worf, or Crusher - who are all command staff - take the reins. I just feel like they had more they could have done with some of what they presented like the political stuff on Romulus or Troi's violation or the nature of being a clone/having been cloned but they let most of it just drop.

B-4 was a ridiculous contrivance pulled out of nowhere, Shinzon and the Remans was pulled out of nowhere, the mega-weapon was pulled out of nowhere, these weren't threats or situations that had plagued our characters or the Trek universe for years, why did they feel this would make a good movie plot? The most popular Trek films all have something to do with prior continuity, the Borg were out to conquer the universe and had hurt Picard and he had to stop them; Khan was a megalomaniac and had been a true threat to Kirk's Enterprise and James T had to stop him; the Klingons had been at war with the Federation for years and now needed help and Kirk had to stop those who wanted to halt the effort. I'm not suggesting that everything be based around prior events, but if you're going to have a major original plot point, I think it should at least feel like it's a reasonable addition to the context it's being presented.

The Romulan ship firing while cloaked was lame arse, then the Enterprise misses dozens of shots after seeing where she is?!? And this "we've exhausted our compliment of torpedoes" is crap, the Ent-D carried 400+ photon torpedoes and the Ent-E is more advanced and built for more battle AND carries quantum torpedoes. Oh, and if you're gonna ram another ship, maybe it'd be wise to yell things like "Inertial dampners and structural integrity to maximum, all hands abandon the saucer section!"

Also, I didn't like how Picard kept hesitating to kill Shinzon, if he was going into the situation that far I don't see how he'd not shoot the guy on the bridge; if they wanted it to be some psychological reason, they should have made it more apparent. And Data's death, if you're gonna kill the android, make it happen for a reason, not just so you can show of that you have a spare android back on the ship - Spock died to save the crew because he had no choice, Data died because he forgot to grab an emergency armband transporter like the one he and Worf used to rescue Picard from the Borg.

I dunno, this film just rang hollow and thin for me, I didn't like the way it was shot, I didn't like how everything was built up, and I didn't like how it paid off. And the film didn't even end with Troi and Riker's wedding on Betazed. There's a ton more I could say, I could probably go into great detail about why I didn't like this film, but basically it's not even worth my time as a Trekkie.


Plus, Janeway was only a captain for a little while before the Voyager incident, how did she become an Admiral in 8 years?!? Oh, and I don't think I'll ever need to see another scene of a wall rotating around to reveal 2 weapons again. :D

Tycho
01-27-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Oh, and I don't think I'll ever need to see another scene of a wall rotating around to reveal 2 weapons again. :D

I don't understand the above sentence.

vulcantouch
01-28-2003, 12:53 AM
-well whadya expect, ya ain't sposed to be lining cretin-staffed theaterchains' pockets by stuffin yer face on their overpriced junk, yer sposed to smuggle in a ham hoagie & a flask of Night Train to a bargain showing, thereby escaping w/minimum impact to either yer wallet Or your patience ;) save your big movie $$ for lil arthouses & anonyflix that could more use it i say :greedy: ;)

"I'm not suggesting that everything be based around prior events"
-well you might not go that far, but as far as the flix go i might; see above remarx :)

"how did she become an Admiral in 8 years?!?"
-by preservin her saucy patrician yumminess while kickin delta/borg beehind for 7 years? (my fave hairdo of hers: that sleek parted-on-side jobbie she had in late 1st/early 2nd season :kiss: )

"was the first time in 35 years I've felt the Enterprise's corridors were boring places to be"
hmm, and that inCludes the ent-d you say? ;) otherwise sounds like you & i are purty much on same page, as you may've seen from my dec 23 Numisux Hump ;)
vt

JediTricks
01-28-2003, 10:57 PM
Tycho, in the movie, they showed various wall panels of the Ent-E rotating around on the vertical axis because on the back-side of the panel was 1 pulse rifle and 1 standard type-2 phaser. They showed this like 4 times, and it was stupid because every previous piece of behind-the-scenes and EU I've ever read has the space behind the walls being used very compactly to fit all the emergency gear in 'em, not just 2 phasers.


VT, I don't have a big coat or a backpack to smuggle snacks in, and I love theater popcorn which is the biggest ripoff of all so I'm kinda stuck there.

Janeway ain't the only Captain in Starfleet, but I guess they did promote Kirk to Admiral in a similar amount of time - I hadn't thought of that until just now. I don't think Janeway is that good of a commander though.

I always loved the Ent-D's corridors, they were like a Holiday Inn in outer space (not my line, I didn't make it up) but except for the uggo colors, they were just wide versions of the Ent-refit/Ent-A's corridors. In fact, they were the Ent-refit's corridors, they were set pieces from Star Trek 3 IIRC.

Tycho
01-28-2003, 11:07 PM
LOL, Riker definitely thought of them like a huge Holiday Inn, or would Motel 8 "Cash Only" be more accurate ;)

LTBasker
01-28-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
In fact, they were the Ent-refit's corridors, they were set pieces from Star Trek 3 IIRC.

Actually the opposite, the TNG corridors were used for the refit corridors. They just have slight changes made to them since they had to use them while TNG was also filming.

It's quite understandable why the corridors looked the way they do though, it's an explorer ship where they actually allowed public on, so while it was fairly bland looking I think they wanted a good neutralness.


Originally posted by JediTricks
They showed this like 4 times, and it was stupid because every previous piece of behind-the-scenes and EU I've ever read has the space behind the walls being used very compactly to fit all the emergency gear in 'em, not just 2 phasers.


They also did cosmetic surgery to the hull of the Ent-E. Plain and simple: it's Berman. Obviously he's gonna do stuff like that for an attempt at a "cool" factor. I'm suprised they haven't done MIB weapon scene rips on Enterprise.

Beast
01-28-2003, 11:30 PM
I don't see any problem with them giving Janeway a Admiral promotion. After all, look at all the good she did in the Delta Quadrent. Being faced with upholding the Prime Directive, as well as trying to get her people home. Hell, she sacrificed her chance to get the crew home immediatly in the first episode, by destroying the Caretakers station, instead of letting it fall into the Kazon's hands.

Let's also recall all the exploring and research that they did while they were in the Delta Quadrant. A area of space that was primarily unknown due to how far away it was. Just think of all the advances that they brought back with them. I'm sure that most of the Voyager crew got cushy positions out of what happened. Wasn't there an episode that revealed what the heads of the crew were doing now? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
01-28-2003, 11:52 PM
Yeah,

Tuvok's in stress therapy.

Tom is on Married...with Klingons. B'Ellana also stars

Neelix is stuffed and mounted, on a wall.

Harry finally made Captain, but everyone else was promoted to Admiral, so it doesn't matter anyway.

Seven is a swimsuit model in Borgs Illustrated

The Doctor is the president of The Hair Club for Holograms.

And Captain Janeway is kept in a box on Picard's desk, and works something like a GPS guidence deveice (Galactic Positioning System) since she knows everywhere you can get lost.


* I'm just kidding. I loved Voyager's characters!

JediTricks
01-29-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
Actually the opposite, the TNG corridors were used for the refit corridors. They just have slight changes made to them since they had to use them while TNG was also filming. Not unless they made TNG corridors in the '70s. Art of Star Trek, page 80: This disntinctively angled corridor will be familiar to anyone who remembers The Motion Picture. Many of the set elements of the new Enterprise-D were modified or redecorated sets from that film.

The Ent-D's engineering section was also a redeco from TMP, which was a design from the ST:Phase II project that never came to pass.


The final ep of Voyager shows key members of the Voyager crew years after they returned to Earth, but that was an alternate timeline that Janeway caused not to happen.


Here's another nit about Nemesis, what the hell was with all those 21st-century flatpanel monitors?!? That was actual product placement, I was shocked by that... and then they didn't even look that good!!!

smurfvader
01-30-2003, 05:30 PM
Well wether or not you liked the film here's something you might appreciate. It's write your own ST:TNG film. It's pretty amusing.

http://www.geocities.com/phineasbg/tngplotter.html?

JIm

stillakid
01-30-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by smurfvader
Well wether or not you liked the film here's something you might appreciate. It's write your own ST:TNG film. It's pretty amusing.

http://www.geocities.com/phineasbg/tngplotter.html?

JIm

Kewl! Here's mine:

Star Trek:Sinister

Written By:stillakid
The film opens with some really annoying credits that make the audience's eyes hurt.

After the credits, we see a white dove hitting a window. This confuses the audience to no end.

Next, we cut to the Enterprise. Throughout the movie, the ship interiors are filmed too dark to see things clearly.

Here, we see the TNG crew. They are bathing in a coed shower. This scene is lame.

During this scene, Picard whines about losing his hair.

The crew is then interrupted! As a result, the TNG crew must drop off food supplies on a starving planet. Thus, beginning their mission.

When they arrive at this mission, Data tries crossdressing to see what it's like being a human female. This scene is embarrassing.

But suddenly, there is an action scene involving Data getting into fight with "homophobic" aliens! This scene could have been very action-packed, but is very short, unfortunately.

Later on, Picard finds out that that V'lltol wants to steal Earth's moon for it's unique dust, and thus the plot of the film finally begins.

Soon, a member of the TNG crew talks to a hologram of Sulu, who is recognized by many TNG fans, though this person doesn't really help the plot.

Then, V'lltol, the film's obvious bad guy, is revealed. But V'lltol is not REALLY that bad, because he misses his mother.

The crew then learns that Earth is in grave danger! And they must come to the rescue!

A few minutes later, there is an embarrassing scene where Data sings 'I feel like a woman.' The audience groans.

And later, Worf is even more embarrassing because he is coerced into dressing up along with Data. This ticks off many Klingon fans in the audience.

Later on, Troi, who had nothing else to do in the film, helps Data find something to wear. Unfortunately it doesn't help the plot.

A little later, Number 1 is caught practicing the triangle. The audience doesn't laugh, however.

Picard and his Away Team beam underwater. Which looks almost cinematic, but not quite.

Crusher and Geordi do absolutely nothing for the duration of the film.

Soon, the audience gets a feeling of Deja Vu. Because the Enterprise pulls out of spacedock in a slow and laborious scene. This seems verrrry familiar...

Then, for no reason, someone in the film says 'you mo' fo'!' Nerds in the audience think this is cool and edgy.

The crew discovers that V'lltol has a tractor beam! This makes things very dangerous!

Then, one of the crewmembers says 'yippe ki ay!' Even though this makes no sense.

In their attempts to stop V'lltol, the crew visits the first moon landing site. This looks really cool... but doesn't stop V'lltol.

Soon, Riker shoots at V'lltol. But this accomplishes absolutely nothing.

There is a final showdown in a nebula called Plumbbut Crack. In a fit of rage, V'lltol attempts to activate his tractor beam! Time is running out, so Picard beams over and attempts to stop him.

Eventually, Picard violently and mercilessly kills V'lltol by pushing him into his own tractor beam. Picard is almost killed in the process, but luckily Worf saves Picard at the last moment.

Later, Picard contemplates on what has happened. As a result of this mission, Picard has resolved his problems with losing his hair. Picard then gives a boring speech about the freedom of the press.

The TNG crew then beams back to the Enterprise, which warps off into space.

The TNG theme plays on the soundtrack.


THE END


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Congratulations!
You have now written a Next Generation movie
that's just as good as the ones shown at theaters!
Print this movie out and send it to Rick Berman!

Tycho
01-30-2003, 08:47 PM
That was awesome! When is it coming out? :stupid:

JediTricks
01-30-2003, 09:36 PM
Star Trek:Dark Knights

Written By:JT
The film opens with some really annoying credits that make the audience's eyes hurt.

After the credits, we see a monkey evolving. This confuses the audience to no end.

Next, we cut to the Enterprise. Throughout the movie, the ship interiors are filmed too dark to see things clearly.

Here, we see the TNG crew. They are watching B4 play the violin for the first time. This scene is lame.

During this scene, Picard whines about his pants being too tight.

The crew is then interrupted! As a result, the TNG crew must scan a comet. Thus, beginning their mission.

When they arrive at this mission, Data is still dead. This scene is embarrassing.

But suddenly, there is an action scene involving travelling into DC comics! This scene could have been very action-packed, but is very short, unfortunately.

Later on, Picard finds out that that the Enterprise has travelled back to the 20th century, to a fictional place called Gotham City, and thus the plot of the film finally begins.

Soon, a member of the TNG crew talks to Lwaxanna Troi, who is recognized by many TNG fans, though this person doesn't really help the plot.

Then, Random, the film's obvious bad guy, is revealed. But Random is not REALLY that bad, because is actually Jason Todd back from the grave.

The crew then learns that the DC universe, post-crisis, is in grave danger! And they must come to the rescue!

A few minutes later, there is an embarrassing scene where Data sings 'the '60s Batman theme song... from his grave.' The audience groans.

And later, Worf is even more embarrassing because he is back on Kronos being a diplomat. This ticks off many Klingon fans in the audience.

Later on, Troi, who had nothing else to do in the film, argues with her mother via subspace communications. Unfortunately it doesn't help the plot.

A little later, Alfred and Picard bicker about their accents. The audience doesn't laugh, however.

Picard and his Away Team beams to the urban jungle. Which looks almost cinematic, but not quite.

Crusher and Geordi do absolutely nothing for the duration of the film.

Soon, the audience gets a feeling of Deja Vu. Because the crew travel back in time to a fictional event. This seems verrrry familiar...

Then, for no reason, someone in the film says 'this sucks!' Nerds in the audience think this is cool and edgy.

The crew discovers that Random has a Joker-designed laughing gas bomb! This makes things very dangerous!

Then, one of the crewmembers says 'Captain Picard, this is Batman!' Even though this makes no sense.

In their attempts to stop Random, Picard is shown putting on the bat-suit. This looks really cool... but doesn't stop Random.

Soon, Riker shoots at the Penguin. But this accomplishes absolutely nothing.

There is a final showdown in a nebula called the batcave. In a fit of rage, Random attempts to activate his Joker-designed laughing gas bomb! Time is running out, so Picard beams over and attempts to stop him.

Eventually, Picard violently and mercilessly kills Random by beaming him into space. Picard is almost killed in the process, but luckily Robin saves Picard at the last moment.

Later, Picard contemplates on what has happened. As a result of this mission, Picard has resolved his problems with his pants being too tight. Picard then gives a boring speech about how fiction is important.

The TNG crew then beams back to the Enterprise, which warps off into space.

The TNG theme plays on the soundtrack.


THE END

Tycho
01-31-2003, 02:49 AM
Equally funny, JT. But I think we're going to get a mixed-crew movie next time. I am eager for them to do something with Deep Space Nine.



Star Trek XI: Deepens Series Five

Story by Tycho

Screenplay by Darth Mouse

Directed by Malakali

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The film opens with some really annoying credits that make the audience's eyes hurt, and Vic Fontaine singing along with some of classic elevator music's greatest hits.

After the credits, we see a baby being born to Cassidy Sisko. When Dr. Bashir delivers it and it starts talking, he informs everyone that he believes this is Captain Sisko. He was reborn as his own son. This confuses the hell out of the audience.

Next, we cut to the Station. Throughout the movie, the station interiors are filmed in an aweful shade of bright white. The station's new Chief Engineer, B'Ellana Paris finallly figured out how the Old Chief never screwed in all the lightbulbs to save station power, but you still don't get to see things clearly.

The power comes on at Quark's where Tom Paris is the new Gambling Establishment Manager. He promptly announces that a baby's been born to Cassidy Sisko and all those who bet it would be a girl, trans-sexual, or a Gamma Quadrant Alien have to pay the house.

Colonel Kira comes out to see what all the ruckuss is about. Quark wants to reinstate the baby Ben Sisko as station commander because he and Tom want to expand services by using their holosuite sex centers as day care centers by day, so they can generate even more repeat customers from everyone who gets pregnant.

Dr. Bashir stops smooching with Ezri Dax long enough to wonder if Sisko is back from the Prophets, what has become of Dukat?

The scene goes to the wormhole. A red light comes out of it and heads past the station deep into space. It goes straight to the Delta Quadrant and touches the Borg. One cube heads at transwarp speed back into the wormhole where the Pa Wraiths have been fighting the Prophets, and suddenly all the Borgs have red eyes. This is only mildly disturbing to the audience who noted that most of the Borgs already had red eyes.

Now we see Costomogian joined with a Borg Queen. He becomes transgender and calls himself the Costomogus Girl and soon after all the Borg start to speak backwards like they're possessed.

"Futile is Resistance. Us service to adapt culture yours. Own our distinctiveness technologically and biologically your Will. Us to yourself surrender and shileds lowered. Borg are we."

Quark decides that with their new easy compliancy, they are offering surrender, and he and Tom have to move quickly to captialize on the sinful nature of the evil gods that possess them and turn them all into drinking, gambling holosuite customers.

But there is a problem! The Borg are into heavy metal and Vic Fontaine's easy listening program is in danger.

Baby Captain Sisko promises to teach Vic some Goo-Goo Dolls hits if they can retake the station. This should pacify the Borg who are throwing temper-tantrums and shooting laser beams out of their eyes and destroying Quark's.

B'Ellana makes them madder when she taps out the main power grid because the system is damaged and Vic can't stop performing elevator music.

During this scene, Jake Sisko whines about trying to be a good journalist and covering the exciting stories about space exploration and laments that his audience will never be interested in reading about this. Many theater audience members agree and walk out.

Suddenly, Odo appears with the Dominion Founders who have become new allies in this happy galaxy. They have developed the ability to shape shift into clones of Alice Cooper. This seems to have a guiding effect on the Hell's Automatons.

But it's a trick! Julian announces this to the audience in case some of them don't get it.

Costomogus Girl has rekindled Dukat's old relationship with the Dominion conquerors and they are finally going to take over the station!

The crew is rounded up and captured, but Costomus Girl doesn't recognize Baby Sisko who escapes by crawling through - well anything because all he can do is crawl so far.

Baby Sisko contacts Captain Troi on the USS Penetrator (he's destroyed most of the previous ships he's commanded now).
Will is in a jacuzzi bathtub with Deanna and Lwaxana Troi. Nerds in the audience think this is really cool. Parents cover their children's eyes.

Captain Troi gets scared of the situation and says he cannot come to help the crew when Deanna sees Baby Sisko on the viewer and she and her mother demand Will take a paternity test.

Baby Sisko gets desperate and sends out a wide-angle variance distress call for help. It is picked up by Neelix on a Talaxian colony world on the closest border of the Delta Quadrant. The Talaxians promise to send help.

Meanwhile, Chakotay unwittingly arrives at the station. His Bionic Bimbo Borg has been malfunctioning and won't stop watching World Wrestling Federation and singing Gothic Rock while he's trying to find his 'a cootchie mora." He thought that the disturbance near the wormhole was effecting her. The Holodoc "Joe" is along for the ride to help Seven if he can, and also to do some dermal-regenerative surgery to remove that tattoo on her face that Chakotay made her get as a compromise to curing her from her addiction to "Alice Cooper hosted Smackdown!" Doctor Joe is able to disengage her Borg nodes that make her susceptible to the Collective, so she can freely move about the Borg unnoticed that she is the only one not controlled by the Pa Wraiths and Costomogus Girl. They are busy setting about cloning Alice Cooper into Vortas that look like Marilyn Manson. This is accepted by the audience, because Weyoun used to be as annoying as schemes to get attention by the real Marilyn Manson.

Meanwhile, Doctor Joe reaches Vic Fontaine and is promptly learning to sing all the Goo-Goo Dolls stuff that Baby Sisko taught the night club singer.

Finally the Talaxian Fleet arrives. When the Possessed Borg see them, they are so in tune with Costomogus Girl's former personality engrams, that they mistake the Talaxians for Cardassian Voll Rats and start running around the station blasting everything trying to exterminate them. Tom and Quark are given their freedom to promptly start selling them weapons and mousetraps.

Meanwhile, the Founders detect that Chakotay is using this distraction to cut auxillerary power and cut off their amp power to their electric guitars they've been playing Alice Cooper's 70's stuff on. The audience is really happy, because all the true Die-Hard Trek fans still left in the theater can never forget the 70's.

To combat the insurrectionsists and finish the Goo-Goo Dolls, all the shapeshifters merge to form the Great Linkin Park. A battle of the bands begins!

Just then, one of Costomogus Girl's Borgs discover Naiomi Wildman, who had stolen away on Chakotay's ship so that she could follow Seven of Nine around the galaxy (even though she is 23 now). Catching her with her puppets, the Borg Drone becomes fixated seeing something familiar with the whole concept of it.

Naiomi is able to transfix the Borg and hold them all spellbound with a puppet show. The Doctor, Vic, and Chakotay help, after the former two also get tattoos so they all look like Linkin Park.

Even the winning band seems to be fixated with this. After Neelix is stuffed and mounted on the wall in Quark's, they too settle in and declare a truce while everyone watches the new VOO-DOO Dolls Puppet Show. :)

Baby Sisko claps his hands and squeals!

Costomogus Girl fumes because he/she/it lost again! - and this time paid the price of even having a sex change to secure the ultimate domination of the universe! The ultimate villain tries to vow he/she/it will be back, but it comes out "Baby's got back!"

The end credits play to Vic Fontaine doing a tribute to Mr. Rodger's "It's a Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood" and in a deleted scene we learn that the Borg had assimilated Mr. Trolley.

The End.

Lord Malakite
01-31-2003, 03:22 AM
Eh, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I never really cared for that show compared to the others. Until the Defiant was added to this series, the title contradicted the show (not to mention itself). Though I can see why Tycho tends to like it. It deals more with politics than it does with the exploration ratio.

Tycho
01-31-2003, 04:32 PM
That's an accurate observation. I do like the exploration aspect of it, but to me, they can only explore so much, everything they discover is phony and not really pertinent to the real world.

The politics mere real world things, like the Bajoran Occupation being like the Holocaust and Palestinian cause combined, etc. (as I don't know if Jewish terrorists fought the Germans in WWII in any degree as organized as the Bajoran Resistance cells).

But I like the idea of them not just warping away to the next discovery or hostile alien, but having to deal with the consequences of their choices for 7 years or longer. Plus the recurring roles were really well-established.

On that note, DS9 gave StarTrek what it never had before - a central defined enemy nemesis like Gul Dukat - Trek's greatest villain. Star Wars has Darth Vader to be the central bad guy to fight against. Kahn or even the often-too-mellow-and-subtle Borg Queen don't live up to the violence and emotion wrought out of a character like Darth Vader. Gul Dukat, for his longetivity (7 years on at least half the episodes of every season) did. He was even sometimes the good guy, like Lex Luthor or Anakin Skywalker. It was brilliant!

If DS9 was politics, so is StarWars. What Lord_Malakite said was very true - that had real appeal for me. Just sometimes, I miss an exploration aspect in the Star Wars universe. Learning about the Force and what's "No Cave!" is about as close as it gets - so I hang on to that stuff in George Lucas' universe, which I like even better, but for different reasons.

JediTricks
01-31-2003, 11:03 PM
I think that Dukat would have made a better somewhat-ally like he was in the earlier seasons. Making him true evil kinda sucked a lot of the life out of that show for me, took away the complex layered nature of the character and replaced it with an "evil dude". Babylon 5 is the only show that really kept those complex layered characters from falling into definite "badguy/goodguy" labels throughout the whole show, even Londo does what he thinks is right until he's too far under the influence of others to get out.

vulcantouch
02-01-2003, 01:42 PM
-i agree that dukat's gray shades were fascinating, but if you're implying ds9's vitality rested mostly on his moral ambiguity i think that's an overstatement. he weren't their only recurring villian (founder, weyoun, kaiwinn, pah-wraiths, mirror-kira & agent sloane, anyone?), and besides, garak & damar retained their ambiguity right to the end :)
as for b5's "substance" or content i wouldn't know cuz every time i gave it a chance its style (visuals, acting, sound, set & creature design etc) was always too lacking for me. i prefer both and ds9 had both but, if one must be missing i'd rather it be content. cuz if it's good enough the style can serve As content, but the reverse is never the case :cool:
vt

JediTricks
02-01-2003, 05:30 PM
VT, read it again, it says it "kinda sucked the life out of (it) for me".

I feel that Garak's ambiguity was too spelled out by season 5, it was somehow too obvious that his motives weren't clear by then -- not that I didn't like the simple tailor mind you, just that by season 5 it was like James Bond being the "world famous secret agent".

As for Damar, I felt he was a bad guy who they later rewrote to be more multifaceted, he started out very 2-dimensional and later was written into something more.

vulcantouch
02-05-2003, 12:44 AM
gee, dya really think "for me" changes the nature of your statement? in contexts like this it goes without saying that any pov one expresses is In One's Own Opinion, after all. so to state what's already implicit is redundant writing style- unless of course one wants to sound like one holds one's opinions humbly, hesitantly, uncertainly; but why would one want to do that, except to play at false modesty? :stupid: :D
vt

JediTricks
02-05-2003, 08:46 PM
Actually, in this case I think it does. I knew how you felt about the IMO issue so I figured "for me" would have been clear like that. With DS9, there is no clear-cut "popular opinion" on these things that I know of, and I rarely discuss it deeply with others. Add on the fact that this series is very multi-faceted and you get a recipe for nothing but individual tastes. If I had said "kinda sucked the life out of (it) IMO", then I would be saying that it was my opinion that it sucked the life out for everybody, but when I say "for me" there, it's really only referring to my personal feeling on the matter for me.

SithDroid
02-05-2003, 09:08 PM
I really enjoyed this Star Trek movie. I heard a lot of people didn't like it, but I never saw why. The story was good and interesting. The only part I didn't like was the ending. Data is by far my favorite character and to do that to kill him off, well that just made me mad. I knew going into it that someone died, and I suspected it was Data, but I hoped it was going to be someone else. Oh well. By the way, what was up with Wesley Crusher's brief Cameo. He should have at least been in the whole movie. It's not like Wil Wheaton is doing much these days.

vulcantouch
02-17-2003, 02:41 PM
-well it's nice to see my lectures are ringin bells at least ;) in that case this next one probably won't be news to you either: "in my opinion", "for me"; "po-Tay-toh", po-Tah-to" ;)

"With DS9, there is no clear-cut 'popular opinion' on these things"
-which doesn't matter, cuz we wuz never tawkin bout popular opinion, we just frontin our own :)

"you get a recipe for nothing but individual tastes"
-i wish that were truer, but ds9's perennial shadowing by less-deserving popularity-contest-winner TNG shows a clear consensus among trekkiedom :(

"I would be saying that it was my opinion that it sucked the life out for everybody, but when I say 'for me' there, it's really only referring to my personal feeling on the matter for me"
-so you prefer your comments to address how you and others Perceive it, as opposed to opining on its merits (or lack thereof) directly? again, for me ( ;) ) in this context that's an unnecessarily modest and redundant distinction to draw :)
vt