PDA

View Full Version : Jim Lee goes Batty



Eternal Padawan
12-14-2002, 04:26 AM
See, I knew this was going to happen. I started picking up the G.I Joe books a few months ago and I swore I wouldn't start collecting comics again. But I saw Uber-Artist Jim Lee's name and unmistakably cool artwork on the cover of Batman and couldn't resist. And Loeb's a decent writer, too (he did some cool Batman bookshelfs with Tim Sale back when I was in it hardcore. The Long Holloween, etc)

The story was a little thin ( I bet you could have squeezed the entire issue into five pages in the olden days), but the artwork was killer.

(sigh) so now I may be collecting three titles a month....



(sigh)

El Chuxter
12-16-2002, 12:10 PM
Same here. As much as I love Batman, I'd stayed away from the title until I saw Jim Lee pop up there. Now I collect 2 GIJoe comics, however many Transformers comics there are in a month (though I plan on giving anything without Simon Furman involved only one more issue before dropping it), He-Man, and Thundercats. And now Batman. Comics are slowly drawing me back. Thankfully Marvel completely invalidated all the stories I cared about from way back when, so it's doubtful they'll get me back to the thin mockeries of classic characters they're churning out now. Unless, of course, there's a new Sleepwalker title in the works. :crazed:

Eternal Padawan
12-21-2002, 12:39 PM
Picked up the 2nd issue (#609). More story this time. The cover was misleading, as Catwoman and Poison Ivy showed up for about one panel between the two of them. I like how Batman's uniform has morphed into the Frank Miller version from way back in the Dark Knight books. The big, clunky utility belt, the thick treads on the boots, the smaller streamlined ears. Since I've been away, I don't know how long Bats look has been like this, but I like it. It's like the present has caught up with the future.

I get the feeling Loeb is going to write just about every major character into this story arc, just to give Lee an excuse to draw them. I wonder when, Joker, Penguin, Riddler, and Bane will show up?

I wonder what the ramifications of Batman having major brain surgery will be down the road. Probably nothing. It's quaint how they wrapped it up in one issue. :) Eagerly anticipating next issue.

As far as Marvel goes, I've flipped thru some of the recent collected works for Daredevil and the Hulk and was impressed with the writing, but it's been a decade away from the most convuluted continuity in comics history (the collective Marvel Universe) and I just wouldn't know where to dip my toes back in.

The Ultimate Alterniverse looks kind of appealing. I really liked the collected Ultimate Spidey books I flipped thru, and the Ultimates (a much cooler name than the Avengers, don't you think?) looked interesting. Maybe I'll just start picking up the TPBs every six months.

In fact, that might be the way to go. They only put out the really good stories in TPB format, so you could skip all the filler issues that were the bane of my existence during my collecting years. I would wait an entire month to find out what happened to Iron man or Daredevil, only to get a crappy fill in artist telling me "an exciting story from our heroes past!" Screw YOU! Now I have to wait another month to find out what happened? Way to kill my interest in your book, buddy.

El Chuxter
01-02-2003, 01:58 PM
I got 609 and 610 last week. I see what you mean about the brain surgery. Pretty silly if you ask me. I really liked chapter one, but the next two chapters are, well, lacking. The writing isn't good enough to captivate me (though to be honest, I'll probably get the rest of the story just for Jim Lee's art and the story has several months to pick up again).

My guess is this brain surgeon is somehow the main baddie, but that remains to be seen. . . .

What's with the Huntress' new costume? I thought female heroes were getting more practical costumes. This new set of threads would only be practical for soliciting business that's illegal in most states.

And one thing really shocked me. Batman makes a reference to President Luthor. As in Lex? As in convicted felon Luthor? As in a clone of the dead original and supposedly an illegitimate son who was born out of the country and is presumably younger than 35? Not sure I like that idea, and I hope DC as a whole has plans for this aside from the occasional inconvenience to the heroes for four years. I mean, come on. That's bloody ridiculous.

Dr Zoltar
01-02-2003, 04:52 PM
Yep, Lex has been pres. since 2000. It happened in a bunch of Superman titles. There's a side story running through the Superman titles now on how Clark Kent and Perry White are working to get him impeached. It's interesting to say the least. I personally think he got some villian with mind control to get so many American's to vote for him. :happy:

Eternal Padawan
01-05-2003, 08:18 AM
I just reread the first three issues in a row and I think the brain surgeon is the main baddie, too.

I did a double take when I saw "President Luthor" but then said "meh. It's a Superman thing. Who cares..." and went about my day.

Huntress' outfit is probably a Jim Lee thing. I'd like to see it tear some time. ;) I find it hard to believe these scantily clad super chickas never "pop out" while they are beating up street thugs. That'd be a pleasant change of pace. :)

RooJay
01-25-2003, 08:05 PM
I agree - The Huntress' new costume is godawful! I like Jim Lee (although I think he'd have been more suited to drawing a character like Superman), but what was he thinking?! I absolutely loved the Huntress' previous costume, and I even think it happened to be one of the best designs in comics; aside from looking pretty practical as well (I could even imagine a real life Huntress wearing that costume - it was that good! Which also makes me wonder why they didn't use a closer design for the Birds of Prey TV show - I always thought the costume was quite cinematic as it was, and certainly loads more practical than what they actually went with on the show!). Basically, it wasn't broke, so why did Jim Lee decide to fix it?!

...and don't even get me started on Killer Croc!!! Maybe he'd work better as a Superman villain now...

Eternal Padawan
02-03-2003, 01:51 PM
What the hell?!?? Bruce Wayne owns the Daily Planet? I stop reading comics for ten years and all this craziness goes down.

By the way, I heard a nasty rumor that Commisioner Gordon died sometime back. Would anyone like to confirm/deny and maybe some details and an issue # or two?

El Chuxter
02-03-2003, 02:17 PM
I more or less stopped with comics altogether a little after you did, EP, but occasionally I'd pick up an issue or two in the store and look through them. (I also read the entire year-long Batman: No Man's Land series, which was surprisingly good.) I vaguely remember something about Luthor buying the Planet and trying to destroy it, and Wayne bought it out to keep it from going under.

As for Gordon, I don't know about him dying. During NML, he thought Batman had abandoned the city and Bats tried to reveal his identity to him to restore his trust. "I don't need to know that," said Gordon, "and what makes you so sure I don't already?" Sarah Essen-Gordon was killed by the Joker at the end of the storyline, but that's the only dead Gordon I'm aware of.

RooJay
02-03-2003, 10:55 PM
Gordon was shot and left for dead in the excellent "Officer Down " storyline from sometime in the last couple years. He did survive the shooting, and he decided to retire short thereafter. The current police commissioner is a man named Michael Akins who seems quite capable in spite of a rather glaring lack of character development since his introduction.

The story on the Daily Planet, as near as I can recall (a lot has happened in the Superman books since then), is as follows:
Lex bought out the Planet some time ago in a hostile takeover as part of a revenge scheme against his old friend, Planet editor Perry White (the reasons of which, I'm a bit hazy on at the moment). Lex had intended to cause the paper to go under and cease publication. Lois intervened and offered to kill any one story of Lex's choosing at any time in the future in exchange for Lex selling the Planet to Perry for the nominal fee of one dollar. At some point Perry and the Planet came upon hard times (I may have to go back and reread this one). This time Clark came to the rescue, convincing his old pal Bruce Wayne to bail Perry out. Bruce remains the official owner of the Daily Planet, though he has taken the role of a silent benefactor and has allowed Perry complete control of the newspaper. At least, that's the story based on my recollections.

Eternal Padawan
02-06-2003, 05:47 AM
So, has Lane killed a story yet? or is Luthor still holding that one over her head?

RooJay
02-07-2003, 09:50 PM
She did. It had something to do with covering up President Luthor's treaty with Darkseid and Apokolips during the "Our Worlds At War" storyline - his deal with the devil, if you will.

Eternal Padawan
03-02-2003, 10:01 AM
While snagging the latest Batman issue, I also picked up a copy of Amazing Spider-Man 50. D'oh! I need to stop buying comics.

I also picked up the first three issues of Masters of the Universe because my daughter was bugging me about them. It's so-so. Not great.

By the way, is the bad guy in Hush...the Joker?!?! What was up with that chuckling at the end of the issue? And Harley Quinn showing up next issue. Should be interesting to see Lee's take on her...

jjreason
03-02-2003, 10:57 PM
I've been happy with this so far. The covers alone are worth the price of admission. Jeph Loeb is one of my favourite writers period, and on Batman his finger is right on the pulse. Fantastic.

I too am happy with the artistic treatment of Batman by Lee, he has obviously gone with the Miller version - the best version. Dark and nasty, yet streamlined. And (importantly) not so muscular that he'd have to weigh in at near 300lbs to be so tall (Bruce is 6'4 or 6'5 no?).

I don't read much DC, so subplots like Bruce being the owner or Lex the president just roll off me as unimportant. One thing I do notice about the books themselves though, is that the DC's rarely if ever come in ratty shape. My bloody pile of Marvels every month are lucky to get to me in VF shape let alone brand new NM. Stupid.

Jerjerrod
03-03-2003, 12:36 AM
I'm with you on Marvel's destroyed books. It is impossible to get one better than VG.

In related news, Batman and Superman gets help from... Super-Dog in #612 :rolleyes:. Very funny. Ha-ha. I don't know how I can continue to take this storyline seriously anymore. :D

Eternal Padawan
03-03-2003, 09:52 AM
Yeah, I groaned at the Super Dog too.

Something I liked though. After Catwoman decks Ivy and Supes asks if that was neccessary. BatMan and Catwoman look at each other before answering. But what I noticed and I think is cool, is the way Batman's (and to an extent Catwomans) cowl bunches up on his neck and shoulders. It's a cool little texturization Lee throws in to show that the costumes are made of something other than spandex. It's probably throughout the series, but I noticed it in that panel. Like I said, cool.:cool:

Eternal Padawan
03-14-2003, 04:12 PM
This is sort of the non-Star Wars comic thread.

I picked up the final issue of MOTU. About as exciting as the other three. But there's an unlimited series coming later in the year. Hooray. What I didn't like about the series is there was no beginning. I would like to see how Adam got the sword, etc. thay just assume everybody knows the story (or watches the cartoon). Let's have an origin series.

Since I'm slowly creeping back into comics, I was thinking of picking up the Incredible Hulk starting with issue 50. I really like Deodato's artwork ( I've been a fan since his stint of Wonder Woman waaay back when) so I flipped thru it and couldn't see the title character in one single panel... so I didn't get it. Then today, I see 51 on the rack and flip thru that. No title character until the last panel on the last page! Now, I don't know about you, but 1 panel in 2 whole books, is a horrendously crappy ratio. So I'm thinking...pass.

I also wasn't impressed with Frontline #5, so I dropped that from my list.

RooJay
03-14-2003, 10:57 PM
Actually, I thought this was the non-Star Wars Jim Lee/Jeph Loeb Batman thread.

Regardless, if you're looking to get back into comics and want some that are really going to be worth your while (He-Man was neat, but not exactly a great comic - same for G.I.Joe) you should really try to check out books like JSA, JLA, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Flash, Hawkman, Fables, The Ultimates, Captain Marvel, Daredevil, and Powers.

Eternal Padawan
03-28-2003, 05:41 PM
Picked up Batman #613. The ending was a shocker....until I realized there's no smoking gun. That and Tommy is holding his little jade ring. He's totally the mastermind behind this little caper. But I don't know if that's the real Joker or an impostor or what.

Thoughts?

El Chuxter
04-03-2003, 12:04 PM
I picked this up last night and read it. I was shocked too, but now I'll have to check out those details.

The proprietor of the comic shop I go to has another theory as to the mastermind, but wouldn't divulge his thoughts until I read this issue. So I'll find out next week. :)

BTW, if this is indeed the non-SW comic thread, I'm wondering about the extent of damage inflicted upon Snake Eyes' face by Storm Shadow. His wound has healed in the new issue, but he wears sunglasses with his civilian clothes. Just a throwback, an attempt to be mysterious. . . or did he indeed lose an eye?

Oh, and Cover Girl. Wowza! Didn't expect her back, and it's nice to see the artist made a definite effort to keep her from looking like Scarlett or Lady Jaye. However, other than Bazooka, have any of the Joes aged a bit? Cover Girl could still be a supermodel, but she's got to be at least 45 (assuming she joined the Joe team at 25, which would be about the youngest I'd suspect one could possibly be before becoming a Joe).

RooJay
04-03-2003, 12:25 PM
Again, not to pick nits - but does this have to be the "non-Star Wars" comic thread? I've always been of the impression that all comics were allowed to be discussed in the comics section, which would make this thread now officially off topic. Just my thoughts.

Regardless,

I would imagine El Chux, that like most other comics - time does not travel in a typical fashion in the G.I.Joe comic. Otherwise, in order for Snake Eyes to have been a Vietnam vet as he was said to have been in the original G.I.Joe comic series - he would've had to be between thirty and forty years old back in the '80s when he was created. He therefore would have to be in his fifties, possibly pushing SIXTY in the current book! Ninja or not...that's still pretty durned old to be fightin'! They'd probably have to be drawing Scarlet a bit differently also.;)

El Chuxter
05-01-2003, 12:21 PM
The proprietor of my local comic shop has an interesting theory on the mastermind: Jason Todd. Scary thing is, after re-reading the issues so far, I think he's right!!

Eternal Padawan
05-01-2003, 04:08 PM
HELLO! That is a far out theory Grand Master Bear. I'll go back and reread it from the beginning. Wouldn't this negate the phone in poll which promised that if they voted him dead, it was permanent? On the other hand...

...Jason Todd as THE new Batman Villain would be shockingly wonderful. The fallen angel aspect would be worth years of stories alone.

El Chuxter
05-01-2003, 04:58 PM
Okay. . . here's his reasoning, which I might've come up with if I would ever have thought of Jason Todd not being dead.

1) The villain obviously knows who Batman is, and has extensive knowledge of his foes.

2) The villain uses a Batarang at one point.

3) In the latest issue, Batman goes way overboard in blaming the Joker for Jason's death, including extensive flashbacks. (Prepping the new readers for who Todd is?) The last time Bats went this nuts was shortly after Jason was killed.

4) The first time we see the villain, he's standing beside a billboard that reads "Robins."

5) The second time, he's holding a scarred coin, just like the man who murdered Jason's father years earlier: Two-Face. (Foreshadowing the next pawn in his game?)

6) Superman appears in A Death in the Family and brings Bats back from the edge. In Hush, Bats does the same for Superman.

7) When the Huntress finds Batman in the alley, she describes him as feeling broken--exactly how Batman described Robin II.

8) Though Robin hasn't appeared, there have been a ton of references to him, and few or none specifically pointed toward Dick or Tim. One in particular by Harley refers to Catwoman as being a replacement or understudy for "Robin, the Boy Hostage." I'm not sure, but I don't think Harley's ever been involved in any story where Tim (the only Robin she's dealt with as Robin) was captured.

9) Batman checked the pulse of Jason and left the closed-casket funeral early. Grasping at straws, but Jason had the training and the street-smarts to fake his funeral if he'd survived the Joker's beating.

10) By the time of his death, Jason was already going over the edge. IIRC, that's why Bats allowed him to look for his mother. If Jason were alive, he'd blame Batman for getting him involved in a life that led to his severe beating at the hands of the Joker. Also, if he's completely insane (which he would most likely be), he'd probably blame Batman for creating Two-Face and the Joker, who killed his parents.

11) Both times we've seen this villain, he's been bandaged. Jason's face was pretty much destroyed by the Joker.

As weird as it sounded at first, I'm thinking more and more that he's onto something. . . .

Eternal Padawan
05-02-2003, 04:24 PM
Yes. Yeessssssss. I can see it now. Verrrrrrrrry Interesting. :)

I had forgotten the Two-Face connection to Jason Todd. Man this is a GOOD storyline. Jim Lee just makes it even better. It's too bad he probably won't stick around after it's done. If there was a way to clone Jim Lee and have him draw every single comic book, I'd be a happy camper.

El Chuxter
05-02-2003, 04:47 PM
I wish Andrew Wildman had hit it big and drawn Batman at some point. With the weird-but-cool way he tends to exaggerate chins and grimaces, I'd imagine his Joker would kick serious butt.

Jim Lee's definitely up there in artists, Batman or otherwise. Back in my time, I really loved Batman comics drawn by Frank Miller, Todd McFarlane, Jim Aparo (his style jarred me at first, but I learned to love it), Norm Breyfogle (my personal favorite Batman artist), Brett Blevins, and Joe Quesada. I'm undecided as to exactly where Jim ranks, but I definitely can tell you he ranks. :)

Eternal Padawan
05-03-2003, 08:03 AM
That's funny, because Aparo is the yardstick for me. He was drawing Batman when I first started reading it, so later artists compared to his style. I think my first issue was the John Byrne book that had no dialogue except for Commisioner Gordon saying "Get out." Other than that, the whole issue was told with just pictures.

I really liked Breyfogle, too. I started collecting Detective with the #600th issue/50th Anniversary thing, and Breyfogle took over with #601. Very stylized, like bleeding the cape into the background for very cool negative images and stuff. Plus his arched Batbrow look is a classic. :)

And in Non-SW comic form, I bought the first issue of Namor for a quarter. Not bad, Not bad. He's nekkid though! :eek: Nekkid through the whole book almost!

RooJay
05-03-2003, 06:56 PM
That's a very intersting theory El Chux, supported by a lot of decent evidence. It also happens to be one I've heard spoken about often (especially on the DC Comics message boards). The only thing that leads me to think otherwise is the fact that 'Hush' has always been represented as being a rather fully developed adult, even larger physically than Nightwing. For that alone, I don't seeing this as being a possibility. Even according to DC's twisted timeline Jason Todd would still undoubtedly be a scrawny young teen of about fifteen or sixteen at the oldest.
I have recently come up with another intersting notion, however: I have a theory that all of what we are seeing may not actually be happening in the real world. I know it's a bit crazy, but think about it - Bat's was shot in the head at the very beginning of this storyline, and nearly everyone who read those early issues of the story agrees that his recovery was depicted as having happened a bit too quickly. Even the characters inside the story have more or less made mention of that fact. In the latest issue, as Bat's is laying the smack-down on the Joker he makes mention of the notion that he himself is responsible for the existence of the Joker and all of Gotham's other local cuckoos. We also see flashbacks of various traumatic events from Batman's career - the aforementioned death of Jason Todd, the end of Barbara Gordon's career as Batgirl, the death of his parents in earlier issues, etc.. You might also note that 'Hush' has been depicted at various times cackling like the Joker as well as flipping Two-Face's coin in this latest issue. I was also struck by how much the villain's bandaged head (remember that this is the same body part Bruce was shot in ;)) resembles Batman's masked countenance. Now, I know this is not a fully formed, or even a particularly well thought out theory, and I admit that I haven't even actually read each issue from cover to cover (I have scanned over each issue, but I tend to save my comics up until I can read the complete story from start to finish, all at once), but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if, at the end of this, the bandages come off and Bruce comes face to face with himself and all of his past traumas, and this whole thing turns out to be some fevered dream of his as he lay unconscious and recovering from his head wound. I could easily see this storyline becoming a personal examination of Bruce's perceived past failures, and some of the defining moments and elements of his career; a story of Batman facing his personal demons and coming to terms with his role in life and his destiny.

...then again, maybe not. Just a crazy notion. One which I will have to examine more closely...


On another note - Jim Lee just did an in-store appearance/signing in one of my local comic shops earlier today. I would've gone, but the place looked packed when I passed by and I didn't feel like waiting outside in the rain! I'm told that he also pencilled an exclusive insert for the Hush hardcover especially for the appearance at this store.

Eternal Padawan
05-04-2003, 09:39 AM
It could all be in Batman's head, but somebody cut the batrope at the beginning. And Croc, Catwoman, and Poison Ivy were all involved before the head trauma. And why would Bats turn to SuperDOG in his subconscious?

RooJay
05-05-2003, 12:50 PM
Well, obviously someone cut the rope - even if it does turn out that this is all in Batman's head, and he's always had run-ins with Croc, Catwoman, and Poison Ivy; maybe the fact that they were involved prior is why they have figured so prominently up to now. Maybe Krypto is a manifestation of how Batman tends to view Superman - few things to me literally scream 'boy scout' than the image of 'a boy and his dog'. I never said it was a sound theory!;) It makes every bit as much sense as that whole Jason Todd thing too.

Eternal Padawan
05-28-2003, 05:26 PM
Looking back at Roojay's theory, it's possible that the Scarecrow is behind it. He's pretty good at reviving past mental traumas. So maybe Bruce will be at war with himself at the end courtesy of Prof. Crane...

jjreason
05-28-2003, 10:32 PM
I can't wait to find out.....Batman 615 hit stands today! Im off to read it right now!

Eternal Padawan
05-29-2003, 06:02 PM
Well, it actually was Two Face. Color me mildly unsurprised. Let down even. I'm kinda sorta waiting for the other shoe to drop, and there WILL be a nefarious mastermind behind it all. I guess you guys just got me all bult up with tension over this whole Jason Todd thing. I was more impressed with Bruce coming clean with Selina. It's like this continuity is catching up with Earth2...;)

Lessee, Riddler showed up and Ra's al Ghul gets his hiney whupped next issue ( oh c'mon, the blurb said one won't walk away next issue. Do you really think Bats goes down and they rename the book R'as al Ghul?) Like I said in post #3, Loeb is writing everybody in this arc. So where's the Penguin? or The Scarecrow??

Nice two page spread of all the Batmobiles. ;)

Did anyone notice on the bridge as the Batmobile drives into the city? Aparo Expressway. :) (and in the panel above it. Who honks at the Batmobile? Honestly...)

El Chuxter
05-29-2003, 06:33 PM
Dang. I read this before getting the comic. What a sucky let-down. :(

EP, check out the maps from the No Man's Land story arc (which appeared every few issues, when there were major territory shifts). Nearly every Batman writer and artist has a nod on there. Whenever I get in the garage to sort my comics, I'll try to post some of the better ones.

jjreason
05-30-2003, 12:36 AM
I liked this issue. I can't wait to see what they do with a "repaired" Harvey Dent. The art on this was jaw dropping. Every page had me just freaking out. I will be going back to read this whole thing again, all in one sitting, as soon as it's over. I just wish I'd been reading Batman all along just so I could be in on more of the side discussion, references in art and dialogue, history of the book for hidden and double meanings, etc. When it's good, Batman is about as good as comics get.

RooJay
05-30-2003, 01:15 AM
Hey yeah...thanks for spoilin' us EP! Now I don't have to worry about enjoyin' the mystery before I've read the darn thing!:stupid:

You guys actually though it was going to be Jason Todd?!:stupid: :stupid:

No offense.;)

Eternal Padawan
05-30-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by jjreason
The art on this was jaw dropping. Every page had me just freaking out. I will be going back to read this whole thing again, all in one sitting, as soon as it's over. I just wish I'd been reading Batman all along just so I could be in on more of the side discussion, references in art and dialogue, history of the book for hidden and double meanings, etc. When it's good, Batman is about as good as comics get.

Heh. On my first read through, I was thinking how "unfinished" and scratchy the art looked, but when I went through again, I was actually astounded by it.

Which dialogue are you referring to? Maybe we can clue you in?

El Chuxter
05-30-2003, 12:14 PM
My thoughts on the new Batman: not nearly as bad as I'd feared after reading the previous posts. This isn't Two-Face, it's Harvey Dent. Or at least he thinks that's the case now. We all know how that's gone in the past. :rolleyes: What exactly this means, I don't know, nor am I sure what he meant about finishing the job he started as DA. Interesting development. He could be the mastermind, and it's looking more like he is. But even Harvey couldn't manipulate R'as. Perhaps R'as is the mastermind?

Or perhaps Jason Todd finally defeated his old foe Two-Face by bringing Harvey to the front and is using him? A dip in the Lazarus Pit would've restored him, driven him bonkers, and left R'as al Ghul as the obvious suspect when Bats finds ashes. . . .

And so Batman becomes known to another character. With DC's constantly revising backstory, did the current incarnation of Selena start out as a prostitute, as we saw in Year I and Shaman?

Eternal Padawan
05-30-2003, 02:34 PM
Hey, whatever happened to the Shadow of the Bat comic? Norm Breyfogle's Mr. Zsasz RULED.

I'm not sure if Selina got revised again somewhere around Zero Hour, but I thought it was the same character.

jjreason
05-30-2003, 08:39 PM
How many issues do we have left?

Eternal Padawan
05-31-2003, 09:51 AM
I was under the impression it was a year long thing. So we have 4 issues left....I think.

jjreason
05-31-2003, 12:58 PM
I can't really think of anything that stumped me, EP. I meant more like when I read X-Men and they refer to things that happened many moons ago, Im like "Hey! I remember that!", but with Batman I just take it in stride like "Oh. Cool. I didn't read that".

Not having read the stuff doesn't take anything away from the read, it's more like if you've been reading for a long time you get more out of the current stuff. Does that make any sense?

RooJay
06-02-2003, 01:09 PM
The latest issue of Wizard magazine (the summer preview issue) has several articles about Loeb and Lee's Batman where each of the creators discuss upcoming story elements; the story is apparently far from over. I will post the article directly when I get a chance (don't have my copy of Wizard on hand currently), but according to both Mr. Loeb and Mr. Lee nothing is what it seems and plenty of twists and turns are left. You may note that even though Joker seems to recognize 'Hush' as Harvey Dent, we are never given a direct look at his face. I for one am not convinced.
I also still find it impossible to grasp that Loeb would stoop to bringing back Jason Todd, or that Lee would ever draw that particular character with the same form and build as he's been drawing this guy; both creators are far better at what they do than that. It just ain't happenin'.

RooJay
06-02-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
And so Batman becomes known to another character. With DC's constantly revising backstory, did the current incarnation of Selena start out as a prostitute, as we saw in Year I and Shaman?

The current Catwoman is still the same Catwoman who...umm..."prowled" the streets in Year One. Occasional references are still made to her "colorful" past from time to time.

To answer a couple of other questions:

- Loeb and Lee's current run extends to issue number 620.

- They will be followed up by a six issue run by 100 Bullets creators, Brian Azarello and Eduardo Risso (which I fully expect will actually be better and more memorable than Loeb and Lee's run).

- Loeb and Lee will return for another six issue run on Batman following Azarello and Risso's storyarc.

Eternal Padawan
06-02-2003, 04:28 PM
What if Todd found some Venom serum (the same stuff Bane gets pumped into his skull)? It's conceivable that it might bulk him up enough. However, Todd being in a room alone with the Joker and NOT bludgeoning him to a bloody pulp after J. killed his mom and blew HIM up? I don't think so. Well, we'll see.

By the way, is anybody reading Detective? I don't know if I'd get into reading all the Bat family titles again (and they've swelled over the years), but Bat and Tec always seemed to compliment each other in the olden days. I was thinking about working my way backwards with Batman (like I'm doing with X-Men).

jjreason
06-02-2003, 08:48 PM
I've often thought about trying to build a run from around issue 400, but there's always too much Marvel I still need to finish off. As soon as I get done my Avengers, Amazing SM, Thor, FF......... I guess that'll put me working on Batman around the time my kids are my age. Somthing to look forward to. :)

Eternal Padawan
06-03-2003, 05:01 PM
I'd have to work backwards from 608 to 525. That would include all the Cataclysm! and No Man's Land stories.

jjreason
06-03-2003, 11:31 PM
I bought the first few issues of No Man's Land, then asked my subscription service to set them aside for me, which he failed to do. 6 months later, I'd missed the whole thing and couldn't find half of those issues. Oh well, saved me money I guess but that story was shaping up to be pretty interesting.

El Chuxter
06-04-2003, 12:11 PM
No Man's Land got me back into Batman for a while. As ridiculous as the concept was, it played out really well. All those issues are collected in paperbacks, which would be worth picking up if you just want to read 'em.

jjreason
06-04-2003, 01:26 PM
Might possible do that, EC. I've always been a stickler for tracking down 1st prints of the original books, but sometimes it's just not worth it - and sometimes they're nicer in collected form. I've been finishing off my Sin City collection with the hardcover collections, I still need 2 more. The stories read very nicely in this format.

Eternal Padawan
06-04-2003, 10:28 PM
I was in Barnes & Noble today. They've already got the HUSH tradepaperback out! Naturally I flipped to the end to see who the bad guy was. You're not gonna believe it, but it was....only the first half of the series. Still, that's a fairly quick turnover. There was a short two page "intro" to Batman ala Jim Lee at the beginning, and some alternate cover artwork in the back. Not enough to make me buy it, but good to flip through.


Also picked up 'TEC 783. (but not at B&N) It was a stand alone issue about a serial killer. The art by Shawn Martinbrough reminds me of Matt Wagner's stuff except with out the dynamicism and punch. (By the way GRENDEL RULES!) It's heavy on the inks and shadows. Almost like an homage to Bob Kane's early stuff. There was also a back-up story about something that didn't interest me whatsoever.

RooJay
06-05-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
No Man's Land got me back into Batman for a while. As ridiculous as the concept was, it played out really well. All those issues are collected in paperbacks, which would be worth picking up if you just want to read 'em.

Ya know...I thought it was a pretty ridiculous concept myself, at first. That is, until I remembered how the north eastern United States if practically litered with earthquake faults (even moreso than Cali!) and is highly overdue for a quake!:eek:
Of course, I'm pretty sure the government would never just shut down and close off a city just because of quake damage, but can you imagine what a mess that would be to clean up? Imagine a quake of just about 5.0 (not considered all that big here in Cali), all those old non-quake proofed buildings, all the densely packed, highly urban areas...Yeesh!

Not to scare any of our friends out east!;)

I actually missed out on the entire first run of both Cataclysm and No Man's Land because I thought it sounded kind of goofy and dropped my Batman books just before! Then I realized how well they actually pulled it off and really regretted it. Thank God for trade paperbacks!


Also, speaking of Matt Wagner and Batman - if anyone's interested in reading some good Wagner Batman, check out the Faces trade! It was originally published in the Shadow of the Bat monthly (if I'm not mistaken) back in the early nineties, and is one of the best Batman stories ever written, in my opinion. Certainly it has to be the best Two Face story ever.
For those interested it should still be available in collected form through DC's trade paperback program - you should be able to order it through Diamond Previews from your local comic shop.

RooJay
06-05-2003, 01:57 PM
Here's that Wizard article I promised:


from Wizard magazine's Summer Preview issue
Loeb & Lee on
BATMAN

When: June
Major Players: Jeph Loeb (writer), Jim Lee (artist)
The Lowdown: Harvey Dent (a.k.a. Two-Face) is the mysterious villain known as Hush, Batman will once and for all rid the streets of Gotham of crime, and Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle will hang up their spandex and live happily ever after.

Go ahead - believe what you've read in Batman lately. After all, that's exactly what series writer Jeph Loeb wants you to think!

"If anyone has learned anything from this story, it is that nothing appears to be what it is," hints Loeb.

For fans that have read Loeb's epic Batman mysteries Long Halloween and Dark Victory, having the superstar writer lead you to one possible ending then completely flipping it is commonplace. However, with the current "Hush" storyarc, Loeb's taken his trademark surprises to a whole new level. Heck, he's even managed to leave DC's Dark Knight Detective scratching his head as to exactly who the mystery villain is!

And as the arc continues this summer, Loeb promises the twists and turns aren't even close to over for Bats!

"Judging by what Jim and I have read on the message boards, there are elements and loose ends that folks haven't even picked up on yet," says Loeb. "I will say that there are some twists coming up towards the end of the story that are gonna have an awful lot of people talking. Keep reading, everything will be explained."

As if Batman hasn't had his hands full with the cast of rogues who have shown up in "Hush" so far (as well as an all-out slugfest with a certain Kryptonian), Loeb and Lee plan on hitting Batman with even more villains and momentous events before the story concludes in October's Batman #620. That means fans can expect more events like the ultimate Batman/Joker fight in issue #614 and Batman revealing his secret identity to Catwoman in issue #615. With June's #616, Bats squares off against not only the immortal Ra's Al Ghul in his hunt for Hush, but also a trio of temptresses including Talia, Lady Shiva and Catwoman. Then, in July's issue #617, Robin makes his way into the pages of "Hush," but the Boy Wonder confronts his mentor on his budding romance with Catwoman.

Despite the fact that Loeb and Lee have taken the Bat to the big-time (we're talking about the No. 1-selling book four of the past six months), the two superstar creators are genuinely surprised at the success and recognition their run has garnered.

"The fact that this has blown away people's expectations of whether or not the books will come out on time, what the characters will look like - has made it a very unique event," says Lee. "To me, the buzz and the hype out run has garnered, it's just unbelievable."

Eternal Padawan
06-05-2003, 03:21 PM
The earthquake wasn't the only reason for the shut down. There was some kind of virus outbreak or something either right before or right after (called Contagion!). All of that combined with a humoungous crime wave spike right in the middle of it turned Gotham into No Man's Land.

I hope the Hush storyline, specifically Bruce revealing his identity to Selina, will not be a "dream sequence" of some kind. That kind of deus ex machina is the lamest kind of storytelling. It sucked up Barry Windsor-Smith's Weapon X serial from Marvel Comics Presents and umpteen other good stories over the past 15 years.

El Chuxter
06-05-2003, 04:40 PM
Hold up. . . . Weapon X was a dream?!?!?

RooJay
06-05-2003, 05:32 PM
Ahh yes, the Gotham "Clench" outbreak. I'm still thinking all that waterfront real estate would've been worth something to somebody though. Anyway...

I was actually checking up on DC's continuity timeline the other day trying to find evidence to support my notion that Jason Todd would not be old enough to be Hush. I realized that he actually could be. According to DC's own continuity Jason Todd became Robin in 1991, which means that if he were between the ages of 8 and 13 he would be between 20 and 25 by now (by the way, that means that if Dick Grayson started when he was eight his age is set at 25, which sounds about right to me); he could very well conceivably have achieved the physical size and build of Hush by now.
Not that I care to imagine anyone (even Loeb and Lee) bringing back the Robin that the majority of us voted to have killed off, but I'm beginning to see the credibility in this theory.
Of course, the latest issue would have us believe that Harvey Dent actually is Hush. However, if you read that article from Wizard - according to Jeph Loeb himself - there's about an even chance that that revelation is a lie or otherwise incorrect.
Two-Face was indeed responsible for the death of Jason Todd's father, so the poor kid might just tend to have a bit of an obsession with ol' Harvey. Of course, he'd probably take serious issue with the Joker as well.
Intriguing, no?

Eternal Padawan
06-25-2003, 09:02 PM
Got #614 today. After that cryptic comment by R'as Al Ghul about somebody using a lazurus pit to "raise from the dead." If I were in Jason Todd mode, I'd think this all but confirms it , but...

I'm beginning to think it's Tommy Elliot again. He's got money. He's got power. He's got motive ( Bruce's dad "killed" his dad in the operating room.)

The partnering of Dent and Gordon was intriguing. Either Dent is duping Gordon with that story about his revolver, or Loeb is making Dent an unpredictable 3-dimensional villain who is smart enough to figure out he was being played. I hope getting Joker released comes back into play at some later point. This story is just getting gooder and gooder.

RooJay
06-25-2003, 11:48 PM
I concur; It's the gooderest!;)

El Chuxter
06-26-2003, 11:37 AM
I actually forgot to pick this up! :mad: I called the shop, though, and the shop is holding it for me. :D

Looks like I'll be a week late on Batman and Transformers. :(

jjreason
07-05-2003, 11:38 AM
Having read 617 with Ra's Al Ghul, I'm back to thinking it's Two Face. I don't really know why, other than the introduction of a repaired Harvey Dent is the perfect way to throw us off. I guess we'll have to see.

Anyone feel a funny tickle down south when the girls were fighting? :sur: :D

Eternal Padawan
07-30-2003, 07:29 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
SWEET JEEZY CHRIZZY!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BATMAN 617 IS THE GREATEST COMIC ISSUE OF THE 21ST CENTURY!!!!!

I NOW HAVE TO SPANK EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU I AM SO EXCITED.

I SHALL NOT GIVE IT AWAY! TO $%#$$ COOL!

And I "knew" the entire issue, from the sweet cover, I was thinking "No Way!" And then when Hush says "Pretender." I was thinking "NO WAY!" And then the final splash page!!!!!!

WHOOHOO!

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 09:00 AM
I can't believe it. I have to go read it again!

This is like the fifth time I've read it!

Holy invalidated sales gimmick, Batman! I wants my $.95 a minute back! :D

Never mind, you can keep it! It was worth the change, to set up the Hush storyline!

SWEET SWIZZUMS AND BADGERY! ( I am now making up words because this is so cool...)

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 11:04 AM
Agreed, EP. This is the coolest issue of any comic since a stray ricochet awakened Primus and alerted Unicron to Cybertron's position waaaaaay back in Transformers vol 1 #something-or-other.

I hope Hush doesn't die in the end. I'd like to see him defeated but not taken out of the picture completely. Imagine a few years down the road Hush joining forces with Bane. :eek: (I've always liked Bane, because it's cool to see a gigantenormous bruiser who's smarter than he is strong.)

Hush may have just replaced Jubilation Lee as the coolest character to wear that costume. Well, not quite, but close.

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 12:16 PM
There's a "Who Is Hush" contest going on at DC (which is funny, because the ad for it in the Batman comic is just opposite the page where he's revealed). Assuming this isn't all in his head, we all know who Hush is now, so we may as well enter. Who knows? One of us might get that sweet original Jim Lee art. :D

http://www2.warnerbros.com/dccomics/hushcontest/contest.html

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 01:15 PM
Actually, since somebody had to get the bright idea to dig him up and haul his carcass to the Lazurus Pit, Redbird isn't the mastermind. Unless he crashed a seance and convinced somebody to do it.

And there's still the matter of bald Harvey Dent and the Joker. Unless Crane was making Jack Napier think it was Dent in front of him when it was really Redbird. But I don't think so.

So back to my original theory...Tommy Elliot is Hush. Remember that whole Stratego match flashback in the very beginning? "You need to know your opponent, Bruce..." He's ****** about Bruce lying to him about Thomas Wayne saving Tommy's father on the operating table and he's set ALL this up to get revenge. I guess everybody needs a hobby.

See, it's never sat right with me. Tommy's death. We KNOW Joker didn't shoot him and Batman was so filled with rage at seeing Joker standing over his friend's body, he didn't really examine the body properly. And the fact that Tommy ws holding his little jade pendant thingy has always bugged me, like that is a major clue. I just don't know.

And Tommy is a brain doctor, just like Crane. I'm pretty sure there's a connection there.

Anyway, two issues and two twists to go. Like I said, I just hope that Redbird's return isn't a temporary thing. It'll suck if he ends up back in the ground or a figment of someone's imagination . With a world size chip on his shoulder for all things Batt and with the training he's recieved, there are like THOUSANDS of story possibilities.

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 01:24 PM
Here are the choices in the contest:

Alfred
Barbara Gordon
Batman
Bruce Wayne
Catwoman
Clayface
Harvey Dent
Hugo Strange
Lex Luthor
Jason Todd
Jim Gordon
Killer Croc
Martian Manhunter
Nightwing
Thomas Wayne
Superman
The Joker
The Penguin
The Riddler
The Roman
Tommy Elliot
Two Face

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 01:54 PM
And Tommy is a brain doctor, just like Crane. I'm pretty sure there's a connection there.

Excellent point there, Rollo. Hence Scarecrow's befuddlement when his toxins don't affect Batman; he says something about Batman already being under someone else's influence.

One thing that bugged me, but I chalked it up to poor setup, was that Huntress and Catwoman spar in an alley. . . but when Batman shows up, they're in a graveyard. Now that I'm thinking about it, Jim Lee doesn't do poor artistic setup. Hush is also wearing a more "adult" version of the. . . um, his old costume. Simple costume change on his part, or a projection of how Bruce envisions he might look if he were still alive?

This could possibly be in Bat's mind as he fulfills fantasies (a relationship with Catwoman) and relives past failures (Redbird). But this begs the question: why is Killer Croc mutated (possibly a minor detail, but I'm not brushing anything off at the moment), and who cut the rope (and why with a Batarang)?

And if it's in Bats' mind, why the asides? Bruce would have no knowledge of Harvey's meeting with Jim, Huntress's delusions, etc, since he couldn't hallucinate events unknown to him without realizing they're not real.

If Redbird faked his death, then he could be the mastermind. We know he's under the bandages. . . this issue. Because either he flipped Two-Face's coin earlier, or Harvey was wearing identical clothes and bandages. (We do know Harvey had extensive plastic surgery, after all.) Or is Two-Face a pawn of Redbird's, possibly to keep Gordon out of his way? (Had Gordon not intervened, it's likely Batman would've killed off the other guy at the top of Redbird's poop list.) Could Redbird have forgiven Two-Face? (The last time they fought, Redbird left Two-Face for the law to deal with.) Or maybe by somehow eradicating the "Two-Face" persona and leaving only Harvey, Redbird may believe he's defeated his foe. Or another of Batman's "failures" for him to face later? Or maybe Harvey's a complete red herring, thrown in just to confuse us while Loeb sets up his next storyline?

In any case, until I'm proven wrong, I'll cling to the interpretation that, mastermind or not, the character called Hush is Redbird.

Another mastermind possibility I'd not considered, since it also involves a resurrection: Dr Hugo Strange. A wacked out psychologist who learned Batman's identity early on in his career. I don't remember how he died, but it's possible that he didn't die and has learned enough about Bruce's personal life to deduce the identities of those close to him. (If Tim Drake did it, so could Hugo.) Simple knowledge of the existence of the Lazarus Pits and the deduction that Batman stills blames himself for Redbird's demise could be inspiration for digging up a corpse and dunking it in a pit.

Of the three big possibilities (all of whom involve someone seemingly coming back from the dead), Tommy Elliott's the lowest on my list. It would be a cheap cop out to throw out his knowing enough about Batman to orchestrate this scheme in the end. However, if anyone can pull that off, it's Loeb.

Two-Face isn't even a serious possibility in my book.

We know this much for sure about the mastermind:
1) He knows who Batman is and knows his technology well enough to know the Batmobile's weakness.
2) He is enough of a master with a Batarang to cut a rope from some distance away.
3) He knows the buttons of Batman's foes well enough to use them as pawns. With the exception of Killer Croc and possibly the Riddler, all the villains he's used are too smart to be easily manipulated (particularly R'as al Ghul). Whether significant or not, he has not involved some heavy hitters, like Bane and the Penguin.
4) Assuming this isn't imaginary, he knows the whereabouts of the Lazarus Pits.
5) He protected Batman from Scarecrow's toxins somehow (an alteration during brain surgery?).
6) He particularly seems to have wanted Batman to kill the Joker.

I'm leaning toward my original theory, but possibly aided and abbetted by a certain neurosurgeon, simply because of my fifth point. . . and it makes no sense to introduce a close childhood friend only to immediately kill him.

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 01:55 PM
Alfred? Not bloody likely. ODDS 1000000000 to 1

Barbara Gordon? What was that the Huntress was saying about "WE took the money, it was clean.." and that "When they killed him, it would unravel." and also "I knew he'd figure out my being near crime alley was too coincidental." I don't read too much DC aren't Oracle and Huntress both Birds of Prey? Does Babs have some grudge against Bats for getting shot? Why now after all this time? ODDS 100 to 1

Batman/Bruce Wayne. ALL of this MIGHT be in Bruce's head as a result of the head trauma. In which case, it's one of those stupid head trip series which will suck the big one. But then again, the batrope was cut before the accident... ODDS 50 to 1

Catwoman. What's the motive? If she's the mastermind, she's the greatest actress ever, helping Bats solve the whole thing. ODDS 80 to 1

Clayface. Whoa. Where the hell did that come from? The fact that he and the Penguin are like the only two major rogues to be missing actually puts him higher on my list. ODDS 20 to 1

Harvey Dent. The fact that he unbandaged his face for Joker is a strong case for him being Hush. It'd be just like Loeb to give us the obvious answer amidst so much plot twisting and then say, "well duh, right here he was flipping the coin, see?" But I don't think so. ODDS 40 to 1

Hugo Strange. uhhhh...Stephen's brother? I'm drawing a blank. ODDS 200 to 1

Lex Luthor. This is Batman, not Superman. If somebody was screwing with Superman's head, I'd lay even money on the president. But since this is the Dark Knight ODDS 300 to 1

Jason Todd. Except for the fact that he would have trouble masteminding ANYTHING from a grave, he'd be my first choice. ODDS 10 to 1

Jim Gordon. Yeah. Him amd Alfred masterminded the whole thing together. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that would turn the coolest comics story EVER into the lamest. ODDS 10000000 to 1

Killer Croc. He has trouble masterminding his own bowel movements, let alone the downfall of the Dark Knight. Maybe the mindless thug thing in the first few issues was a ruse...NAH. ODDS 70 to 1

Martian Manhunter. What?? Why not Booster Gold if your gonna stack random heroes in the line up? Or Apache Chief? ODDS 500 to 1

Nightwing. Hmmmmmmm....nope. ODDS 600 to 1

Thomas Wayne. Because he hates that his son has been avenging his death all these years. or not. ODDS 700 to 1

Superman. Okay, this list is getting ridiculous. Maybe Clark is resentful that Bruce is technically his boss at the Daily Planet? ODDS 400 to 1

The Joker. Unless Loeb is doing some major plot twisting at the end, Jack Napier doesn't have the first clue what's going on. Batman's arch nemesis is out of the loop on this one. ODDS 90 to 1

The Penguin. He hasn't showed up for a reason. It's bugging me why. Except for Tommy and Jason, Oswald Cobblepot is my choice.

The Riddler. Pshaw, even more clueless than Joker ( but not as clueless as Killer Croc) ODDS 150 to 1

The Roman. Who? I'm sorry, who? Exactly. ODDS N/A

Tommy Elliot. I've already given my reasons why he's the Hush meister. And he's who I voted for at the sweepstakes thingie. Cool Batman swag is as good as mine! ODDS 2 to 1

Two Face. Again for the same reasons as Harvey Dent, he MIGHT be Hush. At least it'd be more plausible than most of the others on the list. ODDS 30 to 1

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 02:04 PM
Why are Tim Drake, Bane, Batgirl etc not on the list...?

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 02:23 PM
My thoughts on the list:
Alfred: Being a great actor and master of disguise would be literally the only thing in his favor.

Barbara Gordon: She is indeed the main Bird of Prey, as well as a crucial supplier of info to Batman and his cronies. Not to mention the sometime honeybunny of Nightwing. No.

Batman/Bruce Wayne: Could be in his head, but hopefully not. As for Bruce Wayne, this isn't the godawful "Many Foes of the Batman" mini-series from the early 80s.

Catwoman: She didn't know Bats' identity in the beginning of the story, so no. Plus, like you said, what's the motive?

Clayface: While a shapeshifter is intriguing, I think not. None of the five have the brains to pull it off (one is still a youngster). Clayface II is dead. Clayface III was an accomplished scientist, but had no shapeshifting abilities. Clayface IV is married to Clayface III and presumably raising little Clayface V. Clayface I stole the powers of Clayface III and IV, which overloaded, sending him straight to the Earth's core, from whence he later emerged covered with quartz and unable to shapeshift. So none of the ones with the necessary powers are possible.

Harvey Dent: FDoubtful. If he's reformed, why would he go after Batman. If not, well, he's Two-Face.

Hugo Strange: A possibility (see above).

Lex Luthor: No. Luthor learning anyone's secret ID would blow up the DCU.

Jason Todd: My frontrunner. However, there are two issues left.

Jim Gordon: No. Aside from being stupid, he would've let Batman kill the Joker.

Killer Croc: I like the way you put it. The scene from the "Almost Had Him" episode of the animated series comes to mind. "I hit him on the head with a rock!"

Martian Manhunter: Probably thrown in because he's a shapeshifter and telepath. Doesn't seem likely, since he's a JLA member in good standing.

Nightwing: Why?

Thomas Wayne: This would completely negate the entire Batman continuity and turn it into something resembling the Spider-Clone storyline.

Superman: No pushover, but doubtful he could pull it off even if he had a reason and wasn't a cultural icon and the star of 37 other monthly titles.

The Joker: Too nuts to pull off something this complicated. And why put himself at such risk earlier on if he can manipulate R'as?

The Penguin: Last I heard, he was semi-reformed and had something of an uneasy truce with Batman. I'm wondering where he is, too, but I don't think it's him. I'm leaning toward Hush not involving him for the same reason he hasn't involved Bane: possibly too cunning. (It has nothing to do with "classic" villains, since Harley showed up.)

The Riddler: The "Dark Knight, Dark City" storyline from 150-200 issues back proves that any storyline that tries to make this loser into a credible threat fails miserably.

The Roman: What would Charlton Heston want with Batman?

Tommy Elliot: A definite possibility, maybe working with Jason.

Two Face: Plausible, but unlikely. Of course, if he did learn Batman's identity (or maybe knew it all along), he has the smarts to pull this off.

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 02:32 PM
Why are Tim Drake, Bane, Batgirl etc not on the list...?

Tim Drake & Batgirl: As with Supes and Jonn Jonzz, no hero with an ongoing title will be a villain in this story. Remember the Monarch fiasco, if you will. :) Tim could pull it off, but he idolizes Batman. Batgirl is a fighter, not a mastermind.

Bane surprises me. Like Hush, he manipulated Batman's other foes to bring him to the breaking point. Also, a few years ago, R'as decided to "replace" Batman as his heir with Bane, so the big guy would certainly know all about the Lazarus Pits.

I could even see Azrael. I think his book was cancelled, and he's always had some psychological issues with good, evil, and his assassin programming. But he's not on the list, so I suppose he's out.

Eternal Padawan
07-31-2003, 05:33 PM
So it's Elliot and Redwing in cahoots with each other. I'll buy that.

I need to go back and check where the sword was stuck. I think that's a clue.

Mini questions that remain:

1.What's up with Harvey Dent and Joker?
2.Batman has anti-Scarecrow-toxin in his brain?
3.How will anyone top this storyline...ever? In any comic..ever?

El Chuxter
07-31-2003, 05:45 PM
Another villain who's missing: the Mad Hatter.

Okay, stop laughing for just a moment. Think seriously about that for a bit. Batman has three major living villains who can control minds (Poision Ivy, Scarecrow, and the Mad Hatter) and two of them have already shown up. And they've both been pawns of Hush.

I'm not suggesting the Hatter is Hush--technical genius or not, there's no way he could mastermind this. But why didn't he show up? I'm imagining ol' Jervis as drawn by Jim Lee, and, frankly, I think it'd be cooler than Lee's Scarecrow. So why leave out Hatter, Bane, and Penguin, from a storytelling perspective?

As for the immunity to Scarecrow's toxin. . . that's the only reason I'm leaning toward Elliot being either the mastermind or the accomplice. The only real chance anyone's had to get inside Bats' head was during his surgery.

But then when would Elliot have learned Batman's secret identity? Simple deduction, like Tim Drake did? That part couldn't have been during surgery, since the first stages of the master plan were what landed Batman in surgery in the first place. And how could whoever cut the rope have known for sure that he'd injure his skull and need brain surgery?

RooJay
08-03-2003, 10:14 PM
I've been saying it from the beginning - someone is obviously treating Bats to a major mind-screw! Not everything were seeing is necessarily true. I've actually suspected since early on that a lot of what has happened during this storyline may well have been hallucination.

Also, anyone else out there really excited about Jim Lee and Brian Azarello's Superman next year? I've always thought that Lee is much more suited to Superman than he is to Batman.

jjreason
08-07-2003, 01:06 AM
Im just plain old excited. I finally read 617 today, a week behind schedule. Very good book, but who would have ever guessed Wonderman would be behind the bandages? He sure looks cool in that Robin mask, though. :crazed:

Eternal Padawan
08-07-2003, 09:42 AM
So you looked at the last page first huh? Shame on you!

Although I gotta admit, after Hush popped Tim a good one on the rooftop, it took me about 5.5 seconds to read the rest of that comic. It was a blur, all of that Scarecrow stuff. I went back and reread it properly later on, but I was just glancing at like every third word between the word "Pretender." and the final page. And I was jumping up and down with excitement so every third word was all blurry anyway. :p

Unfortunately, with a week to calm down, I think JT is a red herring. Why would Loeb prematurely blow his load two issues early? I think next issue will have an even bigger twist and then the issue after that will either floor us, or make every single Batman reader drop every DC title and burn their collections. The stakes are that high.

RooJay
08-07-2003, 11:52 AM
I have to say that one thing that just doesn't seem to ring true to me, if what we're seeing is in fact the truth, is the notion that Jason Todd would ever be out for revenge against Batman. What is it that Batman ever did that would make the guy so bent on revenge as he appears to be here? To my knowledge, Batman only ever tried to help Jason out - what with taking him in, and training and even protecting him. It would seem to me that those kinds of things would tend to make someone grateful rather than vengeful. Besides, if he were really back and out for revenge, why wouldn't it be against the Joker? Why didn't he kill the pasty faced psycho when the opportunity presented itself?


On a side note, I went and read the Wizard article on Jim Lee and Brian Azzarello's Superman (shame that Lee's decided to push back his Hush follow-up, but it couldn't be for a better reason), and I'm now more psyched than ever! I'm actually far more excited about this project than I was about Hush. I also noticed yet another apparent hint that MAJOR things are afoot in the DCU. Could it be that supposed new Crisis we've been hearing rumors of?

El Chuxter
08-08-2003, 03:59 PM
Gonna have to go against you on this one, EP. I think Hush is Jason for the same reason you think he isn't: two issues left. This is a storyline that, when you really think of how it affects Bruce, makes the events of Knightfall look like child's play. Ten issues of buildup, and you expect Batman to just whomp the bad guy in 22 pages? That would go way beyond anticlimactic.

This is a villain who Batman cannot beat, and who's gonna hand his :Pirate:se to him next issue, only to be beaten by the entire Bat-crew the following issue. Batman will have to rely on his allies for support, period. And since there's not one of those cheesy "aftermath" issues, everything has to be wrapped up by the end of part 12.

And there's been way too much foreshadowing. I think the early issues of Hush were the first time Jason had been mentioned in years, and we're practically beaten over the head with him in this story.

RooJay, there are several reasons Jason could hate Batman, which added together make sense:

1) Jason wasn't the most well-balanced kid to begin with. The events of A Death in the Family took place mainly because Batman was worried about him and thought he needed a break from being Robin.

2) The age-old argument about whether the villains would exist without the hero. . . Is Batman responsible for the existence of Two-Face (not quite saved from acid by Batman, and who killed Jason's dad) and Joker (fell into chemicals trying to escape Batman and later killed Jason and his mom)? If Jason thinks so, that's some pretty serious issues with the Bat there.

3) Jason may think Batman should've been able to learn his mother was a former associate of the Joker. In any case, he arrived too late to save Jason.

4) Jason could see Tim not only as a replacement, but some sort of proof (to his mind at least) that Bruce never cared for him and simply went out and found a new kid to be cannon fodder.

5) Had he not revealed himself to be Robin, Joker possibly may have let him and his mother live.

6) Lazarus Pits do weird things to the mind.

As for why Hush didn't kill the Joker: he wanted Batman to do it. This would not only eliminate Joker, it would effectively crush Batman once he came to his senses and realized what he'd done. And Batman would've killed Joker in this story if Jim hadn't stopped him.

El Chuxter
08-28-2003, 02:29 PM
Gonna have to go against myself, since Jeff Loeb is a big poop-head!

The new issue (#618) was poorly written, awkwardly paced, anticlimactic, and featured a dead guy masquerading as another dead guy with not even a mention of that fact.

Jim Lee should be ashamed of himself for getting involved in this tripe. At least the pictures are pretty. I'm still debating whether to bother with the final installment, since $2.25 is a bit much to pay for some pretty pictures.

Rest in peace, Harold. Though it was nice to see you able to speak for once, you have never been more poorly written. And now you're dead. I have no idea where you left Ace. Maybe he'll sneak up on Hush and maul him, then make water on his corpse.

RooJay
09-09-2003, 12:01 AM
I also still find it impossible to grasp that Loeb would stoop to bringing back Jason Todd, or that Lee would ever draw that particular character with the same form and build as he's been drawing this guy; both creators are far better at what they do than that. It just ain't happenin'.

Hate to say 'I told ya so', but... :p

Capitan_Moroni
09-09-2003, 11:26 PM
"Daar, Jim Lee just broke my Batmobile..." "Broke it? Or made it better?"

jjreason
09-19-2003, 12:41 AM
I double dog dare you NOT to buy 619 El Chux....... :D

There's a twist left here folks, I can smell 'em a mile away. There will be a great conclusion to this Im sure, and I've read a few good arguments that would bear that out. I hope it's straight out of left field, myself, but we'll have to wait and see.........

Eternal Padawan
10-02-2003, 08:37 AM
'sup dirty monkeys? The Fortnight Avenger sweeps through the forums for a little respite...

jj thinks there's a twist coming, and he's right. Oh, it's not in 619, as I'm sure you've all read and been dissappointed by. It's in the follow up next year. I can't give it away, but I can put some dots out there for you to connect. Who is HUSH, really? Well...

1. Jason Todd's body is still 'missing'

2. You never actually saw Hush's face under the bandages.

3. The reasoning behind Tommy Elliot's revenge plot is beyond weak.

4. Batman was looking at an autopsy report. It made no mention of Elliot's body being made of clay ( both the coroner and Batman probably would've noticed)

5. Jason Todd's body is still 'missing'.

6. You never actually saw Hush's face under the bandages.

7. The Lazurus pit was useless because a DEAD body was put in it. The Riddler used it while still being alive, thus unaffecting it.

8. Edward Nygma never explained how and why he made the Bruce Wayne/Batman connection. Bruce tends to cover his tracks pretty well in that dept. So it must be somebody who already knew...

9. Everyone thought it was kickass that Jason Todd turned out to be HUSH for one issue, then a resounding sigh across the world when it turned out to be Clayface. DC heard that sigh.

10. YOU NEVER SAW HUSH'S FACE. AND JASON'S BODY IS STILL MISSING.

Well, I can't tell you who HUSH really is, but maybe you can figure it out...

El Chuxter
10-02-2003, 11:19 AM
Wow. I'd been too busy being disappointed to really think the conclusion through, and you bring up some excellent points.


1. Jason Todd's body is still 'missing'

"Where is Jason's body?"
"That's the riddle, isn't it?"

Sounds like Riddler knows something, and not just where the body is.


2. You never actually saw Hush's face under the bandages.

I did pick up on that one immediately. "I'm Tommy Elliott. . . but I ain't gonna show you!" Doesn't sound quite on the up-and-up. It's almost tradition to unmask the baddie, and there's a reason we were cheated.


3. The reasoning behind Tommy Elliot's revenge plot is beyond weak.

What, you mean, "Your father saved my Mom when I tried to kill her, so I couldn't just try again?" Yep, weak, weak, weak.


4. Batman was looking at an autopsy report. It made no mention of Elliot's body being made of clay ( both the coroner and Batman probably would've noticed)

Plus, would Clayface (still presumably being dead, since this has yet to be addressed) be able to compress his body parts so small that he could get out of a coffin?


7. The Lazurus pit was useless because a DEAD body was put in it. The Riddler used it while still being alive, thus unaffecting it.

It's been awhile, so I'm not 100% sure, but hasn't R'as used them before when on the verge of death? Or the Riddler could've had his cronies drop his body in a Pit just after death. Okay, doesn't hold up.

Maybe Clayface was dropped in a Lazarus Pit? :)


8. Edward Nygma never explained how and why he made the Bruce Wayne/Batman connection. Bruce tends to cover his tracks pretty well in that dept. So it must be somebody who already knew...

Bane figured it out by observing Batman quietly for a while, then realized the dealio upon seeing Bruce Wayne for the first time. But he's something of an anomaly intellect-wise among Batman's foes.

Hugo Strange and the Gentleman Ghost (if he even still exists post-Crisis) found out, but not in any method that the Riddler would have access to.

Riddler is among the smartest of Batman's foes, and doubtlessly has been pondering Batman's identity (which to him would be the ultimate riddle) for years. If he wasn't able to figure it out before, how could a Lazarus Pit make it click instantly. . . ?

Unless. . . what were his exact words? I believe they were: "A Lazarus Pit provides a certain clarity, shall we say?"

He didn't answer the question directly!! For one thing, he didn't say it was him who got this "clarity."

And from what we know of Lazarus Pits, they don't provide clarity, they provide insanity! But to an already unbalanced youngster who'd been recently killed by his mentor's greatest foe, the insanity that sends him over the edge could be seen as clarity, in that he'd think he was right in blaming his mentor for his own death!

And if this happened to Jason and he enlisted Riddler and let him in on Bruce's secret, then what Riddler says is true, from a certain point of view! He learned Batman's identity as a result of Lazarus Pit "clarity." A riddle! That's just like ol' Edward.

Plus, a slightly more minor point: Clayface isn't quite creative enough to come up with such a radical update on the Robin costume, and why the Rogue-like skunk stripe? Unless he's imitating someone he's seen!!

I'm back to "Jason Todd is Hush." :happy:

Dr Zoltar
10-02-2003, 12:10 PM
There is one question I have that is slightly out of the Hush storyline.

When a Lazurus pit is used on someone wounded but not dead, can the pit be used again? I think I remember reading somewhere that if a fully dead body was put in the pit, the pit basically became useless.

jjreason
10-02-2003, 01:29 PM
Dr. Z, I know very little (read "nothing" here) about Lazarus Pits, or much of the rest of the DC Universe. I can't answer. But since I was next to post I figured I'd better touch on your point...... :zzz:

I thought the story wrapped not badly. I finally really read the last issue today, and though they leave a lot in the open, much was dealt with. There is obviously more to come, and leaving Jason's body outstanding was a wise move. So many different things they can do here. I was surprised to see ol' Batty leave Edward without getting the truth out of him the old fashioned way, since he started down that road and all. Azzarello better have something nasty up his sleeve, or there's going to be a feeling of letdown after this masterpiece.

Eternal Padawan
10-02-2003, 03:24 PM
There is one question I have that is slightly out of the Hush storyline.

When a Lazurus pit is used on someone wounded but not dead, can the pit be used again? I think I remember reading somewhere that if a fully dead body was put in the pit, the pit basically became useless.


That is how I've always interpreted it. Resucsitating a fully dead body uses all the energies or somehow makes them unpure, so it renders the pit useless. But R'as can dip in any pit over and over and it keeps him fit and trim, as long as he isn't dead.

Another thing that bothered me was Riddler said Joker was in because he couldn't resist "the Jason Todd gag". If the Joker knew to refer to Jason Todd as such and not "the dead Boy Wonder gag" presumably he could figure out the connection between Jason Todd and Bruce Wayne. So does that mean Joker knows who Bruce is and is just too nuts to do anything about it, or what? Did I miss some essential reading in the past ten years?

Or MAYBE Edward Nygma is FULL of it about EVERYTHING. We find out in six months...