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stillakid
12-17-2002, 12:17 AM
LUKE: But what if this Obi-Wan comes looking for him?

OWEN: He won't, I don't think he exists any more. He died about the same time as your father.

LUKE: He knew my father?

OWEN: I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare the new droids for tomorrow. In the morning I want them on the south ridge working out those condensers.



It occurred to me last night as I was watching ANH (while writing out Christmas cards) that there is a parallel to Anakin in Obi Wan.

Remember that when Obi Wan said this:

Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.
...he meant that the personality of Anakin Skywalker had truly died. What makes us who we are is our personalilty, and just as a schizophrenic personality can take over a body and kill off previous personalities, that happened with Anakin. Not just a "point of view," the personality that was Anakin was truly dead (or so Obi Wan believed).

But, listening to the first quote above by Lars, it seems as though a similar fate fell upon Obi Wan. What would be the effects on you if you were forced to fight and kill your best friend?

It's conjecture at this point (before we see Episode III), but we can guess that the fight will almost literally destroy the optimism and drive that makes Obi Wan such a great Jedi. After he beats Anakin down (and takes his saber to later give to Luke), he will leave a broken man. Two "lives" are taken that day. The man that was Anakin is "possessed" by an evil demon. The man that was Obi Wan, becomes a distressed and broken hermit, destined to live out his life with the knowledge that he (and Qui Gon :rolleyes: ) were instrumental in destroying the Republic, and more importantly, in losing a friend.

Pendo
12-17-2002, 03:36 AM
stillakid, that is an EXCELENT idea!!! It would be so emotional and powerful! It could be here, when Obi-Wan's life is ruined, that he decides to be called Ben, showing that he too believes he is a different person and the old Obi-Wan is no more.

Good work, stillakid :)!

PENDO!

The 'Xir
12-17-2002, 07:45 AM
Very cool an sound reasoning, However I think it will just be something to think about while watching ANH and writting Xmas cards ;) then anything we'll actually see on screen! Although their might be a conversation say between Ben and Yoda with Ben saying that he will leave the Jedi Order.
I think Owens line will just be what it is, a deversion to keep luke from following ben on some damn fool idealistic crusade like his father did!

The 'Xir
12-17-2002, 07:47 AM
Actually what I just said doesn't make that much sense seeing as how there won't be a Jedi order to leave! :eek:

stillakid
12-17-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Very cool an sound reasoning, However I think it will just be something to think about while watching ANH and writting Xmas cards ;) then anything we'll actually see on screen! Although their might be a conversation say between Ben and Yoda with Ben saying that he will leave the Jedi Order.
I think Owens line will just be what it is, a deversion to keep luke from following ben on some damn fool idealistic crusade like his father did!

No, it did make some sense. :)

You're right, my meandering thoughts really are offscreen elements, I think. Once the fight is over and done with, for those brief few minutes left in Episode III before the credits roll, all we should see is the utter defeat that Obi Wan feels. He shant be proud of dispatching Anakin, nor energetic as he exits the fight location (?). This literally breaks his spirit just as the Anakin personae is driven from Anakin. No onscreen recognition of his new identity, Ben, should be alluded to lest it potentially blow another of the OT surprises.

Emperors_Hand_2211
12-18-2002, 11:39 AM
Offscreen but good. I think it's safe to say that whatever happens to anakin Obi will be or at least feel resposible. That's bound to kill a persons lust for life, especially given the whole death bed promise to Qui Gonn thing.

Fulit
12-18-2002, 01:08 PM
Shouldn't Yoda feel just as badly as Obi-Wan? He also had a padawan who went to the dark side, with "terrible consequences for the galaxy.

Dar Basra
12-18-2002, 01:56 PM
I always figured that Obi-Wan took "Ben" merely to fit into the local Tatooine surroundings as inconspicuously as possible, while watching over Luke's growth - though to be honest, if that was the Jedi's way of "hiding" Vader's child from him, the Jedi Order deserved to be wiped out.

Welcome to the Jedi Witness Protection Program. We promise to hide you from your bad-guy father by relocating you to his dead mother's house, a short speeder's rider from where your father himself grew up. You'll be given a name which just happes to be the same as your father's last name. And for secret protection, we'll install a robed old wizard nearby that answers to the same last name as your father's old teacher.

It was nice knowing you, kid.

stillakid
12-19-2002, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Dar Basra
I always figured that Obi-Wan took "Ben" merely to fit into the local Tatooine surroundings as inconspicuously as possible, while watching over Luke's growth - though to be honest, if that was the Jedi's way of "hiding" Vader's child from him, the Jedi Order deserved to be wiped out.

Welcome to the Jedi Witness Protection Program. We promise to hide you from your bad-guy father by relocating you to his dead mother's house, a short speeder's rider from where your father himself grew up. You'll be given a name which just happes to be the same as your father's last name. And for secret protection, we'll install a robed old wizard nearby that answers to the same last name as your father's old teacher.

It was nice knowing you, kid.

Well, yes, sort of. My thoughts above are complete conjecture based on what was probably a throwaway line in the original script. I latched on it and attached meaning that probably wasn't there to begin with.

I do believe you are nearly correct in your assessment. Based on the OT alone, we get the idea that Obi Wan has stayed out of the way, yet close enough, to watch over Luke to wait for the day when and if he could join the cause. The Ben thing was most likely originally just a way for him to hide out and not be noticed by the Empire or any stray Jedi hunters.

But, as I said, upon hearing that line again, now in context with some Prequel information, it is entirely possible that (if George does this in the most effective manner), that former "throwaway line" could take on some pretty significant meaning. Episode III has to play out in a very specific manner (that doesn't pander to "fan wishes") to make it work out. Subtlety is the key, not that the Prequels are any indication the George has a clue what that means.

(But you are also correct about the entire hiding out on Tatooine thing. With the old assumption that Lars was Ben's brother, it made perfect sense to hide Luke there. Lars's "disgust" with Ben and the Rebellion was justifiable as a family thing. Now, with Lars being Anakin's step-father, it is completely stupid. At least in the first two Episodes, there is absolutely NO reason why Obi Wan would choose Anakin's step-family on Anakin's home planet to hide his son. Lame lame lame.)

dirtybones
12-19-2002, 01:24 PM
Who ever said that it was Obi wan that made the choice to leave luke with the step family?

Dar Basra
12-19-2002, 03:01 PM
Ok, so it was Mace Windu's decision. ;) Still silly, though, whoever thought it up.

But really, the only textual reference we have is in the Emporer's Throne Room lightsaber duel scene in RotJ, when Darth said "Obi Wan was wise to hide her from me". So one presumes that they attempted to hide both children (and apparently Padme as well, since Leia remembers images of her). And I don't see any other likely reason that Obi-Wan would become a hermit on Tatooine ("if there's a place that's farthest from the center of the universe, this is it") except to watch over Luke in hiding ...

Really, I think it all comes down to the fact that GL didn't truly comtemplate any prequel or sequel material when writing the script for the original Star Wars. What sounded good, and mythic, within the confines of the one movie, has created too many contiguity problems overall (though I'm not saying anything new here).

But really, come on ... Darth Vader was born and raised on Tatooine, but when he chases the rebel ship there, and notes that the Death Star plans were clearly aboard the escape pod, he still can't even attach enough importance to the "coincidental" importance that they are heading for Tatooine, of all planets, or sense Obi-Wan's presence or his own son's, to do anything more than "send a detachment down to retrieve the stolen plans"?!?

That's why the whole "hiding" thing is really farsical, and probably was never in GL's original thoughts.

Pendo
12-20-2002, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Dar Basra
But really, come on ... Darth Vader was born and raised on Tatooine, but when he chases the rebel ship there, and notes that the Death Star plans were clearly aboard the escape pod, he still can't even attach enough importance to the "coincidental" importance that they are heading for Tatooine, of all planets, or sense Obi-Wan's presence or his own son's, to do anything more than "send a detachment down to retrieve the stolen plans"?!?

The reason why I think Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan or his son is because he isn't looking for them. I think a force user can only sense other things when he is searching for it.

How do we even know that Vader knows Luke exists? For all we know, Padmé could of had the children without Anakin knowing about them (or maybe in Episode III the Jedi tell him that the children died at birth to make it easier to hide them). Vader may only become aware of his offspring after the events of ANH.
Even if Vader was aware that Luke existed, I don't think hiding him on Tatooine was such a bad idea. It's the last place Vader would think of looking for him. He knows the Jedi wouldn't be stupid enough to hide him there :rolleyes:.

PENDO!

stillakid
12-20-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Pendo
The reason why I think Vader doesn't sense Obi-Wan or his son is because he isn't looking for them. I think a force user can only sense other things when he is searching for it.

PENDO!

Vader: I sense something, a presence I've not felt since....

:confused:

Pendo
12-20-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Vader: I sense something, a presence I've not felt since....

:confused:

He could have been using the force to search the Millennium Falcon for life. That is when he senses Obi-Wan.

PENDO!

stillakid
12-20-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
He could have been using the force to search the Millennium Falcon for life. That is when he senses Obi-Wan.

PENDO!

So what you're saying is that "Force users" have to (and have the ability to) "turn it off and on" like a switch?

Now, I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, I just find it interesting. My understanding was always that it is just kind of there. The more "attuned" a person is to the Force (as if they were able to "see" it like a big pool of water surrounding everything) then that person would be able to automatically sense something that disturbs the Force (as if that person was sending out ripples). Not so much a feel-it-by-choice thing. More like a sensitivity that's just always there once you are "aware" of it.

So, when Obi Wan steps into Vader's vicinity, he can't help but send out ripples which Vader can't help but sense. The same thing occurs in ROTJ when our heroes try to infiltrate Endor. Luke is helpless as he inadvertantly sends out ripples, which again, Vader can't help but feel.

The Overlord Returns
12-20-2002, 05:21 PM
I would pose a theory that vader would just be too far away from the surface of Tattooine to feel the presence of Kenobi. I mean, realistically he would be thousands of miles away.........

stillakid
12-20-2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I would pose a theory that vader would just be too far away from the surface of Tattooine to feel the presence of Kenobi. I mean, realistically he would be thousands of miles away.........

But what about The Emperor in ESB?


VADER
What is thy bidding, my master?

EMPEROR
There is a great disturbance in
the Force.

VADER
I have felt it.

EMPEROR
We have a new enemy - Luke
Skywalker.

VADER
Yes, my master.

EMPEROR
He could destroy us.

VADER
He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no
longer help him.

EMPEROR
The Force is strong with him. The
son of Skywalker must not become a
Jedi.


To me, that exchange specifically implies that these "ripples" of disturbance are not limited by distance (or time, necessarily -- Luke "seeing" the future on Dagobah).

:confused:

Jerjerrod
12-21-2002, 03:43 AM
Maybe the reason for Ben's success in "hiding" for so long was due to him not using the power of the force during the whole time he was hiding from the Sith (and overseeing Luke's growth), which makes the Sith difficult to identify any presence on Tatooine.

It wasn't until Ben began his idealistic crusade (Krayt Dragon Howl, bypassing sandtroopers, etc.), that he started to use the force again for the first time since the Jedi Order diminished.

Soonafter, Ben makes his way to Death Star, and that's when Vader sensed his presence, because Ben has once again re-established himself as a jedi, thus, strong with the force.

Just a thought.

Pendo
12-21-2002, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
So what you're saying is that "Force users" have to (and have the ability to) "turn it off and on" like a switch?

I don't think it's like a switch, I agree that it's there all the time, but a Force user has to concentrate on it to understand it. That could be why both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon tell Anakin to concentrate, "Concentrate on the moment, feel, don't think, use your instincts."
Also, in Episode II when Anakin says "I can sense everything going on in that room." It gives me the impression that Anakin is concentrating on it.

What I think it's like is hard to explain. Possible like a piece of paper with words on it. You can look at the paper and just see a load of squiggles and not understand anything, or you can concentrate on the words and read the page.
A force user might be getting the "squiggles" all the time, but don't know what they mean until the concentrate on reading them...:confused:. Ouch my head hurts...:crazed:.

PENDO!

Tycho
01-02-2003, 04:46 PM
I've now pretty logically reasoned out (in other posts) that Vader pledged to serve the Emperor in exchange for him leaving Obi-Wan and Luke alone.

They struck a deal because Vader realized he was wrong when he was Anakin and tried to kill Kenobi. He did not want to live any longer and allowed himself to lose that fight. Later, he had no choice: he was alive. But he did not want to be evil and he wanted to protect his loved ones, including Luke.

Vader told Obi-Wan to leave and take Luke to his step-family's (most likely because Naboo was destroyed, and Tatooine was outside of the Empire's politics). He asked the one that watched over himself when he was little, to take care of his son with the help of the Lars'.

Vader did not know that there were twins, but he did know about Luke and Obi-Wan, and set it up for them to live, so long as they stayed out of the Empire's way. That price was what Palpatine paid for Vader's loyalty, too!

Pendo
01-02-2003, 04:58 PM
Cool thought Tycho! I think that could work well on screen. The only bad thing about it would be that it would show a good side to Vader, and the possibility of him turning back in Episode VI.

PENDO!

stillakid
01-02-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I've now pretty logically reasoned out (in other posts) that Vader pledged to serve the Emperor in exchange for him leaving Obi-Wan and Luke alone.

They struck a deal because Vader realized he was wrong when he was Anakin and tried to kill Kenobi. He did not want to live any longer and allowed himself to lose that fight. Later, he had no choice: he was alive. But he did not want to be evil and he wanted to protect his loved ones, including Luke.

Vader told Obi-Wan to leave and take Luke to his step-family's (most likely because Naboo was destroyed, and Tatooine was outside of the Empire's politics). He asked the one that watched over himself when he was little, to take care of his son with the help of the Lars'.

Vader did not know that there were twins, but he did know about Luke and Obi-Wan, and set it up for them to live, so long as they stayed out of the Empire's way. That price was what Palpatine paid for Vader's loyalty, too!

It sounds reasonable. Please link to those other threads so that I can read through them.

The only potential sticking point is the unspoken possibility that the Sith, being inherently evil, would demand unconditional loyalty to the cause. For the Emperor to truly trust Vader (as much as he could, anyway), part of that conversion would have been an ultimate "test." We've seen similar use of that convention in other stories and films as well, when the head bad guy demands that the second in command kill someone innocent or someone that is close to him. The ultimate test of loyalty. For Episode III to reveal a "soft side" to both the Emperor and to Vader would severely, in my opinion, cripple the rest of the Saga and the way we view the overall struggle.

No, just as something like Lord of the Rings is straight up black and white good vs evil, the audience has to believe that the Emperor is unquestionably bad. We also have to continue to believe that about Vader, just as everyone except Luke does.

I don't think Anakin knows anything about Padme being pregant. I think that EpIII will show us that Palpatine sends Ani out to kill Dooku and on his way out, he and Padme have one last toss in the hay. She winds up pregnant because of that encounter, but as events unfold, she never gets the opportunity to tell him. He runs off to become fully evil and the first he learns of any offspring is between ANH and ESB when his spies tell him the name of the pilot who blew up the Death Star.

Tycho
01-02-2003, 07:36 PM
Stillakid: Here is my complete speculative story of how Episode 3 will go down. (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8671)

It is all an educated guess right now, but a lot of people have commented that it does sound logical.

It is in the spoilers section, but there are no spoilers yet, because production on E3 has not started at this time.

That being said, even though my thread is in spoilers, I will be responsible and post a big notice when people who don't want spoilers should stop reading.

The idea of having that thread over there in the spoiler section is that it lets me confirm elements I think probable, or adjust the story accordingly if we learn from reliable sources something strange like Anakin is touring with the Max Rebo Band ;)

I mean that some of what I speculated should become part of the real way E3 unfolds.

The fun is in posting it (and I started that thread shortly after the premier of Episode 2 I think...) and seeing what I think will happen now, versus what will actually come to pass.

But I've been blessed in that a lot of people have spoken up and said that they like what I deduced would be the final story, so I hope you will like it too! :)