View Full Version : gandalf and sauron are the same race???

12-23-2002, 12:10 AM
according to this site http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
gandalf, sauraman, and sauron are all part of the same supernatural spirit race, only sauron was corrupted and turned to evil. if this is true, why hasn't sauraman achieved the same level of power as sauron since he too has turned toward the dark side?

and when gandalf the grey died, and his spirit was sent back as gandalf the white, why didn't those same gods who sent gandalf back, just remove the evil spirits of sauron and sauraman?

12-23-2002, 12:28 AM
From what I can understand of the site, it's because their creator gifted them with free will. Here's the line of text that notes that.

"The Ainur were 'kindled with the Flame Imperishable', which can be taken to mean that they were granted free will by their creator. Ilúvatar instructed them in the arts of music, until he brought them together to make the Music of the Ainur; the great song that created the Vision of Ilúvatar and ultimately the real World."

"Apparently also called the 'Secret Fire', the Flame Imperishable seems to represent that aspect of Ilúvatar through which he was able to grant free will and true life to the beings he created."

I'm guessing Sauron is more powerful, because he's been corrupted longer then Saruman. Saruman was the head of the White Wizards. From the info on the site, Sauron was corrupted during the first age, and had been on Middle Earth even before the First Age. Saruman didn't even arrive in Middle Earth until the end of the first Millenium of the Third Age.

"In the earliest days, Melkor seduced Sauron and took him into his own service, and Sauron became the greatest and most trusted of his followers. While Utumno still stood in the dark north of the world, Sauron was given command of his lesser fortress of Angband. At length, the Valar assaulted Melkor and took him in chains back to Valinor, but Sauron escaped, and remained in Middle-earth."

"Most often called Saruman the White, Saruman was the first of the five Wizards to arrive in Middle-earth, at the end of the first millennium of the Third Age. He was said to be the eldest of the order, and Gandalf acknowledged him as the chief of the Istari."

Sauron: In Middle-earth for many thousands of years before the beginning of the First Age, banished 25 March III 3019 (Endured at least 16,000 years, and probably much longer)

Saruman: Immortal. In Middle-earth c. III 1000 to 3 November III 3019 (c.2,000 years)


Jar Jar Binks

12-24-2002, 05:34 PM
What's more, the Balrog is also of the same race originally, having been also seduced and corrupted by Melkor at the beginning of the world (Arda). Furthermore, all of them - Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, and the Balrogs also happen to be lesser members (Maiar) of the race of the Ainur, the creators of Arda along with Illuvatar.

...man, is that ever a mouthful!

12-30-2002, 09:05 AM
All of this is contained in the "Silmarillion" for those who wish to read about it. I tried reading it but it seems to read more like the Bible than a work of fiction with a plot. I couldn't get into it, but the stuff about the Istari and the Balrogs come ratehr early in the book.

12-30-2002, 09:19 AM
It's true. IIRC, Gandalf, the Balrog, and Sauron all are under the race of the Maiar, whose duty was to help Middle-earth's god, but as JJB said they were given free will. Sauron was actually manipulated by an even more powerful and evil being called Morgoth, who was responsible for corrupting Sauron and the Balrogs, and the creation of orcs!