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View Full Version : I dont agree with "preserving surprises"



princethomas
12-23-2002, 01:07 PM
Im not sure how others feel about this, but I think that it is a mistake.
I know people like to think that this is a series of 1-6, but it isnt.
Episode 3 is the last movie in the series. We need to see certain things.
I dont think that every little comment from the OT needs to be
visualized at the end of E3, but I think there is no need to try to
be all clever about alluding the truth. Because it will feel like BS to us who are watching. And I dont think it is to protect future generations who will watch it in 1-6 order.
Future Generations will have a choice. They can watch it 456123
like we all did, or they can watch it 1-6. There will be two different,
uh well (gulp) "points of view" from which they can watch.
There will be Luke's POV which we all got. Where he discovers the nature of the force and his relations at the same time we do.
Or there will be the Obi Wan point of view. Where they watch it 1-6 and know all that Obi-Wan knows.
I think that not protecting the "surprises" is a great idea.
It will be facsinating to watch it from that POV. To watch Episode
4 for the first time, having watched the PT already. So that when Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father. Our Children can wonder what the old guy is up to. So When Luke meets Yoda for the first time, we are on his and Obi-wan's side. Looking down at Luke, pleading with him to stay and not go to Bespin. Because we know what happens when you run off headstrong. And when Vader gets Luke out on that catwalk in Bespin. We know the truth and are just waiting to see it finally delivered. I think that is fantastic. Surprises only work for one viewing.
Even for us, we got the surprise once in ESB, then we spent the next 20 years watching the it an ANH for all the hints about it. It is more fun to watch Omniciently. (that cant be spelled right).
Does anyone agree? or is it just me.
--Tom

TheJediCharles
12-23-2002, 02:37 PM
Anyone I ever introduce to the saga as long as I live (including my kid) will be in order of release. All of us enjoyed the heck out of it that way and chronology is less important than the surprises.

Granted, after enough years go by and enough generations go by, I'd say it will end up being watched in chronological order more often by newcommers. But, I'll advocate the opposite as long as I'm here.

But remember that there are other important reasons for watching it in order of release too. I happen to think the most important reason why is because we're meant to disbelieve in Luke's chances in turning Vader good again. To see three films of him being mostly heroic will undermine the doubt that we're meant to feel. When Vader turns good we're meant to say "I don't believe it" not "I saw that coming a mile away." You see what I mean? This is rooted in keeping Vader categorized first and foremost as a villian, not a half-hero or fallen-hero, which should only be experienced secondarily. New viewers should not be watching ANH for the first time already pitying Anakin. That really screws up the interpretation his character is really meant to convey in those chapters of the story and ultimately ruins the last big thing he does.

It's just plain not going to be as impacting to see it in chronological order on many different levels. I'm rather saddened to know that future generations will be robbed of so much punch by doing what they think is right. Oh well, I'm just glad I got it the right way and enjoyed it to it's fullest.

;)

princethomas
12-23-2002, 02:56 PM
Iwill be interested to see how it plays out watching it for the first time
in both directions... Either way. I still think it is silly to try to "protect" the OT surprises in the PT.

Jedi Clint
12-23-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by princethomas
I still think it is silly to try to "protect" the OT surprises in the PT.

You make it sound like it would take a great deal of effort to "protect" those secrets. That simply is not the case. It seems that the secret you are focused most on is Vader's true identity. You didn't mention any of the other "secrets" you'd like to see revealed in E3.

Regarding viewing the episodes in order or watching them in the sequence they were initially released. Pick up your E1&2 DVDs and look at the binding. What is the most prominent symbol you see? The roman numerals I and II should be your answer. It really doesn't matter what order one chooses to watch these movies in. The fact remains that the prequels are currently being created to be watched with the OT in number order for future generations.

What is the first thing G.L. wants fans to do after viewing E3.......beyond viewing it again? I'll bet that he wants us all to run out and purchase or rent the current release of the OT. SW fans tend to think of the movies as existing solely for their own experience rather than the public as a whole.

The debate presented in the opening of this thread has been rehashed repeatedly since before TPM was released to theaters. Each side has it's opinion on whether we should know Anakin is Vader or not and reasons to back it up.

There isn't anything "silly" about leaving confirmation where it already exists.

The Overlord Returns
12-23-2002, 04:01 PM
Besides, Vader can be shown, while still preserving the "secret" of his true identity.....

Pendo
12-23-2002, 04:27 PM
I will have to disagree with you princethomas. I'm one of those who would like the secrets of the OT to be kept a secret. I will be watching them in I - VI order, as that is how George Lucas intends them to be watched. If the secrets of the OT are revealed in Episode III, then I will reconsider watching them 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, but the whole Star Wars Saga is meant to be watched as one whole 12 hour movie with 6 different chapters. Lucas probably wont want the secrets of the final chapter to be spoilt in the 3rd. It's like a book, a book wont reveal who the murderer is in the 3rd chapter, it waits until the end of the book.

Of course, everyone has different oppinions on these matters, and that is why Star Wars is such an interesting topic to discuss with people because its interesting to see what others feel about the saga :).

PENDO!

TheJediCharles
12-23-2002, 04:32 PM
The fact remains that the prequels are currently being created to be watched with the OT in number order for future generations.

What might be more popular to do in the future has nothing to do with what we think is better now or how we might arrive at our concieved preference, nor do we need to bury our heads in the sand in the light of that information.

We know what they'll likely do more of tomorrow. We don't care. This is not only what we think is better now, but feel the popular ways of the future will not neccessarily be the best way.

God, that is true in very many ways I'm afraid.

Jedi Clint
12-23-2002, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by TheJediCharles
The fact remains that the prequels are currently being created to be watched with the OT in number order for future generations.

What might be more popular to do in the future has nothing to do with what we think is better now or how we might arrive at our concieved preference, nor do we need to bury our heads in the sand in the light of that information.

We know what they'll likely do more of tomorrow. We don't care. This is not only what we think is better now, but feel the popular ways of the future will not neccessarily be the best way.

God, that is true in very many ways I'm afraid.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
It really doesn't matter what order one chooses to watch these movies in. The fact remains that the prequels are currently being created to be watched with the OT in number order for future generations.

Notice the first sentence in the quote directly above. Obviously, I don't care what the popular way they end up being watched turns out to be. Burying one's head in the sand?

What will they likely do more of tomorrow? I never ventured a guess. Our opinion has no bearing on whether these films are being made for future generations to watch in numerical order. That information comes from the creator of this saga.

princethomas
12-24-2002, 01:35 AM
Hey, I m sorry if I seemed offensive. Didnt mean to call anyone's
ideas Silly.
As for what order to watch them in. What I tried to say in my
post was that I can see that it would be interesting to watch them both ways. But that only works one time. Once you have
seen them all,then you dont really get to say which way you
like to watch them, because youve already seen them all.
None of us will ever get to make that choice.
The surprise thing is what I was most interested in.
Im not sure I understand why some people would not want to see Anakin turn to Vader. I realize there is a sense of gratification that some of us just want to see some sort of grand transformation montage. Thats not what I want. Heres where I use the word silly. It seems to me that to adaquately explain to the audience that Anakin has died and a new robotic looking Sith Lord has shown up. And do it in a way that is convincing. It seems
like it will be tricky and obvious. And that seems silly. I feel like we will all be sitting in the theater in a couple of years watching the official end of all things Star Wars and be saying. "Ah this is silly, we know its him."
And if you dont think it will be hard to do. What about "A young jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine til he turned to evil." and "he betrayed and murdered your father" If those two lines are to be believed by new viewers. Then in Ep3, things will have to be done to make those things not contradictory. And that would be tricky at best.

I think Jedi Clint asked me if Iwas concerned with other OT surprises. I guess I wasnt. Other than Lukes family issues. What other surprises are there? that would be an interesting thing to think about.

Im all in favor of not having to show a bunch of stuff that just isnt needed. We dont need to see, Owen not allowing Luke to have his lightsaber or any of that stuff. But I do not see the point in trying to preserve the identity of Vader until the big E5 moment. I just dont think its necessary. I think the story will be fantastically cool to go into ESB already knowing but not having seen it yet. Different in a way that nobody reading this can ever relate to.
Plus I dont think for a minute that anyone wouldnt figure it out anyway.
Sorry Im rambling. Sorry if this is a rehash. I dont get to this site that often. I know, "The world does not stop and start at your convienience!"
Thanks
-Tom

Tycho
01-02-2003, 02:29 AM
Simply having Anakin be kicked out of the Order for marrying, and Obi-Wan be training a NEW PADAWAN who is 17 by the time of E3 will alleviate all the worries about it being silly to hide Vader's identity until E5.

Vader could easily be the new padawan (who's actually insignificant and killed off during E3 - but it's not made clear to the audience concerning this one's fate - but it's not really important).

Then when Obi-Wan says, "A young Jedi who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil..." there is the possibility that a new audience will not think Vader is Anakin, because without the new padawan, Obi-Wan had no other apprentice that could have killed Anakin, therefore it's in your face in E-FOUR that Vader is Anakin (if you're paying close attention, and there isn't another possibility).

Meanwhile, we'll see Anakin go to the Dark Side - blaming Obi-Wan and the Jedi for :

1) preventing him from saving his mother

2) preventing him from marrying, then from rescuing his wife and child

3) not preventing him from murdering his own father - Dooku - because the midi-chlorian test proved it a long time ago, but they never told him - and his mother didn't either. (Obi-Wan didn't know, but Anakin doesn't believe that).

4) trying to kill Palpatine, who Anakin is protecting, but who Obi-Wan swears is the Dark Lord.

Anakin will fight Kenobi ferociously, we all already knew that - and he'll lose. But to fight him like that - he turned to the Dark Side whilst trying to kill his former master.


IF THIS IS ALL TRUE, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE?

Anakin getting put into the Vader costume?

Anakin looking in baby-name books trying to decide what to call his new personality?

Anakin building his red lightsaber?

Those 2 things are the only things we will not see (I hope).

IF WHAT I WROTE ABOVE IS TRUE, YOU DID SEE ANAKIN TURN TO THE DARK SIDE - he made a choice to disobey his Master and break with his Jedi Training and he did so openly in front of his Master and a Sith Lord. It won't be much different from when he decided to kill all the Tuskens....

Are you saying you have to see Hayden's face right before the helmet is put on him?

It's so .... blah. And we're sure to see tons of things about "Hayden to play Vader" - though that totally does not mean you will see his face and the black suit except in behind the scenes shots in magazines and preview images on the web. You won't see it in the movie and half the fans will complain like you've never seen complaining before - so I'm wasting my breath.

You want to see Darth Vader's human face? Watch Return of the Jedi.

Pendo
01-02-2003, 06:15 AM
Maybe there is a way they could show Anakin's face behind Vader's mask. Perhaps his face gets totaly mangled up that you don't even recognise him as Anakin (because he fell into lava ;)).

I'm hoping Anakin's father will not be revealed in Episode III, because IMO it will effect Vader's "I am your father" line in ESB. If it was Dooku though, it is a good idea that the Jedi knew about it all along. Maybe that was why Dooku left the order.

PENDO!

2-1B
01-02-2003, 11:47 AM
Tycho,
Dooku will never . . . EVER . . . be Ani's father, so "WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE" cannot "BE TRUE" :P

It might be silly to show Ani becoming Vader, but not as silly as the introduction of a "new" padawan who takes the fall for Obi's fight. Hmmm, we see ANAKIN turn to the Dark Side, yet it was this OTHER pupil who 'betrayed and murdered' Ani.
Right . . . it's not murder when you kill a bad guy like that.
Is Obi guilty of the murder of Darth Maul? ;)

:crazed:

Wolfwood319
01-02-2003, 08:25 PM
I'll be more disappointed if I don't see Vader in EIII. And I'd prefer to see Anakin's downfall. I don't want some half-assed, around the bush little metaphor for Anakin's fall. I want to see him get horribly mangled by Obi-Wan, get 'rebuilt' and then kick some Jedi ***.

That's what I want to see. I know Vader is Anakin. And I don't care if EIII like this will 'spoil' future generations' viewing of the trilogy. Who even knows if future generations will even care about Star Wars.

stillakid
01-02-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
I'll be more disappointed if I don't see Vader in EIII. And I'd prefer to see Anakin's downfall. I don't want some half-assed, around the bush little metaphor for Anakin's fall. I want to see him get horribly mangled by Obi-Wan, get 'rebuilt' and then kick some Jedi ***.

That's what I want to see. I know Vader is Anakin. And I don't care if EIII like this will 'spoil' future generations' viewing of the trilogy. Who even knows if future generations will even care about Star Wars.

When George finishes the saga off with that kind of attitude, then for certain future generations won't give a hoot about Star Wars. If he'd have spent more time writing the Prequels the way they should have been and spent less time trying to "please the fans," then the possibility that future generations wouldn't have written the saga off would have been better. He lost countless potential fans with TPM who didn't even want to give him a second chance by paying to see AOTC. Who knows how many more bailed after Episode II. If Ep III "gives away the secrets," then countless more will stick to their VHS copies of the OT and be content.

I think all the really "cool" stuff is best left to the arena of EU and video games. He was following time honored story conventions when he wrote the OT but for some reason has chosen to alter the original plan halfway through. Who wouldn't like to see the mechanics of Anakin getting into the mask? But the point is that because of the specifics of the story already disseminated to the audience, actually including it in the onscreen story would be a mistake.

princethomas
04-02-2005, 08:14 PM
Hey everybody. Its been a good long time since we had this conversation. Just thought Id come back and give the finger to all those who thought we should not see Anakin actually become Vader. :D Just teasing guys. I m so glad we wont have to see any "silly" hiding of Vader's true identity. So I feel pretty vindicated by the fact that it is very clear, even in the non spoiler forum that we are going to see Anakin become vader. Those of you might still hold the line and think that its a bad idea. But at least GLucas agrees with me. So I get my way. Not trying to be a jerk. Just hotdogging for fun.

-Tom

JON9000
04-02-2005, 10:47 PM
I think the best way to watch the trilogy will still be in order of production, not chronologically. There is quite a bit of incidental exposition in the OT, and it would be a serious downer to sit through it when you already know all of the answers from having watched the PT. Also, the OT lightsaber battles will really seem like they are moving in slo mo after the PT battles.

The only reaon I can think to show your kid the PT first is to really build up some suspense- will this nice kid who they will identify with and dig really turn into the biggest bad*** of all time?

I do not think the end of ROTJ would be seriously compromised by watching the PT first. Anybody over 12 probably could have surmised that Vader would toss the Emperor and be redeemed anyway. The drama will remain for the kiddies, because when I was 8 years old I couldn't see the ending when it was two minutes in front of me!

El Chuxter
04-06-2005, 02:19 PM
Once you know the entire story, you can re-watch them in numerical order. I can even see watching them 1, 2, (Clone Wars), 4, 5, 6, 3; though 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, (Clone Wars), 3 will always be preferable for first-time viewers. Why? It's not so much preserving the surprise of Vader's identity as it is simple storytelling. Vader's revelation to Luke is the climactic moment of the original trilogy (when viewed as a whole), and to reveal Vader's identity earlier destroys the dramatic impact of that scene.

If the duel in Cloud City is not the climax, what would be? Vader and Obi-Wan dueling in ROTS? Viewing in the order George intends them to be viewed now makes the entire original trilogy anticlimactic.

It doesn't matter if you see Vader redeeming himself a mile away. Anyone with any common sense should be able to pick it up from Luke and Vader's conversation on Endor, if not even as early as the way Vader simply lets the Falcon escape in ESB. For his redemption to work, we have to see him first as a monster, not as a cute little child actor who became a monster.

rust
04-10-2005, 10:34 PM
3) not preventing him from murdering his own father - Dooku - because the midi-chlorian test proved it a long time ago, but they never told him - and his mother didn't either. (Obi-Wan didn't know, but Anakin doesn't believe that).


Woah, Woah, Woah... I thought this was the spoiler-free forum.

When I get married and have kids, I will have them watch it in production order (Possibly in 3D). Unless 3 doesn't reveal too much about the surprises of 4,5, and 6, then I will show it 1-6.

And I can show them my action figures.