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ki-adi mundi's bro
11-06-2001, 08:43 PM
since we had the 2 disscucions going on in one...i thought we could disscus it here....i think he didn't dissaper because his soul or force soul had already turned dark enough to do that...

bigbarada
11-06-2001, 08:52 PM
Then how do you explain him appearing next to Yoda and Ben at the end of ROTJ?

Co Jo-Da
11-06-2001, 08:55 PM
See...that's the point... Vader doesn't disappear when he died on the Death Star but he does appear with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of RotJ.

Jedi Clint
11-06-2001, 09:00 PM
This topic belongs in the "Classic Trilogy" forum.

bigbarada
11-06-2001, 09:02 PM
Oops, I think it's 'moving day' folks.

El Chuxter
11-07-2001, 01:52 PM
Ah, this thread's from the land of E2. . . . I was wondering what that other topic was you mentioned. :)

Vader didn't disappear, but Anakin did. (Talk about a certain point of view!) We just didn't see it onscreen. Luke burned an empty suit of armor.

ki-adi mundi's bro
11-07-2001, 03:40 PM
quite possibal...

hamsterboy
11-08-2001, 01:10 AM
Heck,I'm still trying to figure out why Qui-Gon didn't disappear.

El Chuxter
11-08-2001, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by hamsterboy
Heck,I'm still trying to figure out why Qui-Gon didn't disappear.

So's everyone else.

JEDIpartner
11-08-2001, 11:09 AM
Hmmm... maybe QUI-GON is the REAL Phantom Menace!

Yeah... it's true- nobody really knows WHAT Luke was burning there on the forest moon. It might have been an empty suit as El Chux stated. I suppose it would certainly make sense that Anakin's physical form would disappear since he was redeemed by his son. So why WOULDN'T he disappear as Obi-Wan or Yoda had?

White-Bread
11-08-2001, 12:26 PM
I am definitely going to refresh my memory tonight by watching ROTJ... but do we actually see Vader / Anakin take his last breaths when he is lying there with Luke? I seem to recall Luke and Anakin talking about Leia... blah blah blah... then a few moments later we see Luke trying to get Vader into the shuttle.

I'm not sure I agree with some of the theories I have read here. I'm not saying they are wrong because who am I to say... But anyway --- I don't think it is about being ready for death. Something just tells me that that would be too easy to figure out.
It has to have something to do with acceptance. Meaning that Luke "forgave" him for turning to the Dark Side and thus accepted him back as a father. Being as Star Wars has religious implications... maybe it has something to do with salvation. I don't want to get into a religious discussion... but anything is a possibility.

But if you think about it... he could have disappeared and all that was left was the suit. Who knows. I think GL would have made it clear if Anakin disappeared. Anyone have GL's number? I will call him and ask him!!!

Jedi Clint
11-08-2001, 02:37 PM
http://www.starwars.com/episode-vi/classic/2001/07/classic20010730.html

Sith Worm
11-20-2001, 06:03 PM
In my opinion Qui-guy didn't because he was a rebel and always defied the council. I believe that Obi-Wan said something about defieying the council and that Qui would have been on the council if he would quit defieying them. Thats how I took it and maybe he wasn't one with the force because he didn't go along with the council. And as for Vader I think some one else already said this ,but maybe he did disapear and luke was just burning the armor, good points white bread...

ki-adi mundi's bro
11-21-2001, 06:30 AM
yoda? yoda taught him how to do it? yoda wasn't even his master!

bigbarada
11-21-2001, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by ki-adi mundi's bro
yoda? yoda taught him how to do it? yoda wasn't even his master!

GL said that Yoda taught him how sometime between Ep3 and 4, and that it'll NEVER be explained in the movies. When Yoda and Obi-Wan turn out to be the last Jedi, I'm sure Yoda shares some of his knowledge with Obi-Wan, it'd be stupid not to.

Jargo
11-22-2001, 05:03 PM
Yeah Yoda and ben: "Okay Obi, you go thataway and I'll go thisaway. If you see the Skywalker kid before I do, tell him this *whispers in Obi's ear* psssswsssspsssssp."
Okeydokey Yoda me old matey, see you in about twenty years..."
And so it went.

What does it really matter The physical form is useless to masters of the force anyway, a mere hindrance The true nature of the Jedi is in spirit form where they can act as guardians in ways they simply couldn't when alive and flesh and blood. Look how crap Ben was at teaching Luke when he was alive. Luke never learned anything. Once he hit that spirit level he got Luke tuned in to the hip coolness of the force daddio! he saved his best shots for when he was a spirit. all the truth about vader and leia was given once he was a spirit so Luke couldn'r take a pop at him.

So Anakin dies on the DS, Luke drags the body to the shuttle and leaves the DS. back on Endor he burns the flesh and armour. Anakins spirit is already at one with the force having gained redemption the moment he killed Palpatine.
Yodadisappeared for a clever way to make a tug at the heart strings in an emotionless scene with a big ugly green muppet with wonky eyes and fozzy bears voice. It was a bad attempt at distracting us from how bad the movie was.

Ben disappeared because Lucas couldn't think of any way to get round the fact that vader cuts an old man in half in a kids movie. Censorship regulations of the mid seventies anybody? Ben is just a wizard who can make magic. It's as simple as that. No mystery or deep significance written into it. He just vanishes end of story. Anakin doesn't cuz Luke would look bloody daft dragging empty armour to a shuttle wouldn't he? It's that easy. Just a decision made to show death and redemption. A son drags his father away for a decent burial far from the evil location of his death.

Why didn't Qui-Gon disappear? because if he did there wouldn't have been time for Ewan to cradle him and weep like a big girly wuss. What would be the point of it? What purpose does it serve within the story? Does it advance the story? Does it advance a character along a path? Nope.

BountyHunter
11-22-2001, 09:51 PM
yoda? yoda taught him how to do it? yoda wasn't even his master!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obi Wan, "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."

BountyHunter
11-22-2001, 09:54 PM
I understand Qui-Gon is Obi-Wan's master, but I guess that Yoda can be considered a second master for most Jedi.

El Chuxter
11-23-2001, 02:48 PM
According to a few of the E1 reference books and the Jedi Apprentice series, Yoda is the main trainer for all kids at the Temple until they turn 13. At that point, they were taken on as Padawans or shipped off to become farmers.

Wolfwood319
11-23-2001, 03:14 PM
Not to mention, all masters were referred to as masters, even by other masters.

Like Yoda; "Master Qui-Gon, more have you to see."

Plus, if you were a Jedi Master, every padawan and Jedi Knight would be below you on the rank system, so you would be their "Master".

Jargo
11-23-2001, 03:18 PM
Actualy it now states all that about Yoda training the kids in the databank entries at the official site. Seems when the lickle kiddywinks first become padawan they are trained by the froggy one. Then as El Chux said, they are partnered with a jedi master at around 13. So yoda at some poibt is every Jedi's master. And they just continue to refer to him as he is the big cheese in the Jedi order. Perhaps it would have been clearer if Yoda had been a grand master but that sounds un jedi like to me. more like a dark side self agrandiosing title.

chewie
11-25-2001, 06:05 PM
IMO. I think Qui-Gon was made to be the most daft and dumb jedi ever, and thus, he didn't disappear when killed because he was simply not that well connected with the force and never became one with it, even as a living jedi master.

Qui-Gon's disicions eventually cost the universe greatly. He wasn't even aware that he would be killed in the battle with Maul, as it seems that most other jedi masters are aware of when they engage in battle. His method of only looking into the present and not thinking about the future made him the most thoughtless jedi around.

SithDroid
02-05-2002, 12:59 AM
If GL intended the whole midichlorian thing to apply to science, then how come the Jedi do disappear after they die. That isn't scientifically acurate. You don't see peole die here on earth and vanish into thin air.

In ROTJ Luke is actually buring the suit of Vader. Remember that he was mostly machine, so the suit would have been pretty stable.

In Ep I, who knows why Qui-Gon never disappeared. My whole guess is that GL forgot about that in the OT and didn't even really care. Plus he wanted to write the funeral scene as a bridge between the Obi-Wan asking to train Anakin scene and the final celebration scene. Plus he wanted us to hear Yoda's important words of wisdom at the end and couldn't figure out another way to make it happen.

Beast
02-06-2002, 12:04 AM
Here's my idea behind the whole thing. First of all, I believe for a Jedi to be able to mantain a physical prescence after they have died takes a few important things.

1. Concentration: Obi-Wan and Yoda were both at peace when they died. They were both calm, at peace, passive as Yoda stated to Luke in Empire. Obi-Wan ceased his attacks against Vader on the first Death Star, closed his eyes and saluted Vader with his blade. Yoda was also prepared for death, which is why he could also vanish and take on a spirit form, instead of merging with the force. Qui-Gon was worked up fighting Maul, he never had time to calm his mind, and prepare to pass on. He worried about Anakin's training, instead of his own spiritual passing. Alternatly, Anakin was to worried saying goodbye to his son, and wanting to see him with his own eyes, to properly prepare himself mentally.

2. Yoda and Vader knew that they would have to be sure to survive long enough, to train Luke as the New Hope for the Galaxy. They may have studied forbidden jedi technique's to mantain a spirit form on death, in the event they died before Luke was needed to be trained. That way they could still train him, even though they were dead. A less plausible theroy, but quite possible in the long run.

3. Vader/Anakin was the most powerful Jedi of his time, he survived whatever happens to him in E3, just by his control of the force and thru Palpatine. He was given time to make ammends and be at peace before he died. In saving his son, if there is some sort of cosmic deity in the Star Wars universe, his self sacrifice may have been enough for to allow this being to let him have his old body back, after he died even if it was in spirit form. Vader was also responsible for the Jedi purge, so he may have also come across the forbidden knowledge mentioned in point two, and studied it enough to manifest after death after his cursed mechanical body was destroyed by fire. (See point 4)

4. Anakin, at the time of his death was trapped within the machine body that kept him alive. Upon the burning of the suit, any tie it had to his spirit was destroyed, and he would be allowed to pass on into the next reality. Same reason the jedi probably burn their dead ritually, to allow their spirits to join with the force. Anakin was to weak to properly prepare to escape his mortal body, and with the bonfire, Luke released him from his cursed mechanical form.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
02-06-2002, 01:23 AM
I used to think of Vader's suit as "empty" when Luke burned it. With the release of TPM I just assumed the disappearing act was a rarity, with only Obi-Wan and Yoda being able to do it.

The Lucas quote from 1997 says that the technique is picked up between episodes 3 and 4, and it will not be explained on film.

But following TPM, Lucas said Qui-Gon's non-disappearance would be explained as the films continue.

I hope he goes back to the 1997 perspective.

SithDroid
02-06-2002, 12:56 PM
If GL intended the whole midichlorian thing to apply to science, then how come the Jedi do disappear after they die. That isn't scientifically acurate. You don't see people die here on earth and vanish into thin air.

Have you gotten the hint GL. Midichlorians are wrong!

Beast
02-06-2002, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
If GL intended the whole midichlorian thing to apply to science, then how come the Jedi do disappear after they die. That isn't scientifically acurate. You don't see people die here on earth and vanish into thin air.

Some do, ever heard of Spontanious Human Combustion? :) Sure it's not a total vanishing act, since sometimes it leaves behind some unburned remains. But there have been cases where the whole body has disapeered, leaving only some burns on the floor, and some ashes.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

SithDroid
02-06-2002, 01:35 PM
True. Then how come Yoda and Obi-Wan don't spontaneous combust? Do they have a cooling effect? My whole point is that GL didn't THINK about half the stuff that is wrong with TPM. He just wrote it and forgot about the OT, which is poor, poor, poor, directing and writing on his part. Research is a huge part of script writing, which, unfortunately I think GL has lost the nack for.

Beast
02-06-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
My whole point is that GL didn't THINK about half the stuff that is wrong with TPM. He just wrote it and forgot about the OT, which is poor, poor, poor, directing and writing on his part. Research is a huge part of script writing, which, unfortunately I think GL has lost the nack for.

Well, we don't know all that happens in E2 and especially E3 yet, so I wouldn't say that the events of TPM don't carry over to the old trilogy. Remember, by the time of the events of A New Hope, its been 20+ years since the Jedi's were in existance in any numbers. Alot has changed in the galaxy, thanks to Palpatine. Im sure that he has destroyed almost any record he got his hands on of the jedi's and the times before he came to power. Thats why other then some of the higher ups in the Empire, such as Grand Moff Tarkin, Vader was thought of some eccentric sorcerer, going by Motti's comments.

Palpatine also no doubt kept the information about midiclorions supressed, ensuring that those capable of becoming jedi's after the purge were never detected. It also appears that in the Jedi order, they also kept the midiclorians information supressed. Probably so that people wouldn't think themselves capable of being a jedi, even though they weren't trained. I think Obi-Wan and Yoda never mentioned to Luke about the whole midiclorian think, just to capture his awe as teenager about what the jedi's are. And we know that Obi-Wan atleast in the OT, wasn't much for telling Luke the truth anyway. :)

I think we need to wait and see where the cards fall in E3, before we say that Lucas screwed up on TPM with his script. Like Lucas has said numerous times, the movies are meant to one day be watched back to back, and that they will flow into each other, and form a cohesive tale about the Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

dr_evazan22
02-06-2002, 03:27 PM
I have another theory: I've heard of two different aspects to the Force, the Living Force, and... well some other Force. Could it be that whatever "mode" of the Force you're tuned in to dictates what happens to your body upon death?

kadamontaga
02-06-2002, 05:36 PM
This has been a very interesting thread to read and i've got a few thoughts on the subject that i'd like to share :)

1. To me it always seemed that Yoda and Old Ben weren't actually "killed". It seemed that for one reason or another Obi decided that vanishing/passing into the sprit realm or whatever was the best course of action. Perhaps he knew he couldn't hold Vader off for long, or perhaps he didn't feel that having a big duel with Vader was the most prudent thing to do. Therefore, rather than being chopped in half, he dissappeared. This always suggested to me that if he'd been chopped in half he wouldn't have been able to use his spirit powers etc.

As for Yoda, although he may have realised that old age was finally getting the better of him, i think that in the end he decided to dematerialise. Even if he had only beaten natural death by a second or two, by this logic, he wasn't "killed". So basically i think that when the Jedi voluntarily dissappear, they get their neat-oh spirit powers (disemboied voices, smilingly pleasantly etc)

This explains why Qui-Gon didn't vanish - he was caught off guard. Perhaps he was a crappy Jedi. Perhaps Darth Maul was simply superior. Perhaps he foresaw the whole fight sequence, but not the exact moment of his death. Who knows? My thinking is that Maul was better trained and "at one" with the nasty side of the force, so he kicked Qui's ***. Qui-Gon always seemed cool but a little lame to me.

This seems to raises the question: if Qui-Gon couldn't beat Maul, how come his student did? But lets not forget that for all intents and purposes, Maul won the fight against Obi-Wan - he knocked him down the big hole thing. But in a moment of ingenutiy (possibly demonstrating his brilliance as a Jedi), he outsmarted and 'outforced' Maul.

Phew, that took longer than i thought, I've lost my train of thought...

Oh yeah. I forgot about Vader - in summary, i think he submits in the end and does what Yoda and Ben did to dissappear, but the suit prevented his full escape until its destruction. Yeah, I think he beat his own inevitable death.

2. George may have a secret (for now) explanation for every single happening in the movies, or on the other hand, the whole Star Wars saga may have become much bigger and intricate than originally intended - leaving gaping continuity holes. Whatever the case may be, discussions like the ones in this thread enhance the whole SW expierience for me and add to the mystique of the Force. In short, its fun not to understand everything.

3. My final point for now (i should write a plan before doing a post like this again). What happens to 'true' Sith when they die? If Jedi go blue, transparent, and glowy, is there a Sith version too? I have my doubts - would a Sith 'give up' and die like Yoda or ben, or would he fight to the bitter end? Does anyone else have an opinion on this one?

Kadamontaga

Darth Mojhaan
02-07-2002, 03:09 AM
WARNING: Possible Episode II Spoiler Ahead

:D The answer has been there all along! Even though Anakin turned from the darkside to save his son, he still had to pay the price for disobeying the Jedi Code; marrying Padme and turning to the darkside and so forth. I feel as if his body had to be burned to cleanse his soul. The same with Qui-Gon. Didn't Kenobi ask his master why he must disobey the council-"AGAIN!"
Begin Spoiler: If he would follow the code then he would be a member of the council, but since he was trained by Count Dooku, he learned to defy the code. Much like a person who sins, their soul must be cleansed or forgiven, but that is why Anakin's and Qui-Gon's bodies had to be burned. To be purified before becoming one with the force!