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Jaff
01-05-2003, 02:27 AM
I was reading some of the conjecture spoilers and some of the stuff ignored some of the things that were allready stated in films. Episode IV Ben says of Owen: "He thought he should stay here and not gotten involved. He thought you'd follow Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade LIKE your father DID." That means that:

Anakin is on Tatooine at the start of Episode III (opinion). Ben comes back for Anakin and asks for help. Owen is very annoyed and aggitated by this because the Jedi were responsible for taking anakin away from his mother and now their taking Anakin away from his wife. To Owen Anakin has been tortured enough by the political Jedi's. So Anakin leaves his wife behind never to see his kids again.

And don't forget that nobody knows what the death star is in Episode IV. If it was killing planets in the galaxy before IV than everyone would know what it is. Even Tarkin expresses that the station is new. So it will not be completed until the end of III.

Beast
01-05-2003, 02:36 AM
Obi-Wan loves to twist the facts around though, stating things from his "certain point of view" when he was talking to Luke in ANH. Those comments could be referring to the fact that Anakin ever left Tatooine in the first place. Or to Anakin leaving in E2 to go rescue Obi-Wan, and loosing his arm.

Especially since had Anakin never left, his mother probably would have still been alive. We know that Anakin is probably going to blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mother's death. Given Owen's attitude twords Obi-Wan in ANH, he could also blame him for his step-mother's death as well.

As for the Death Star, it likely won't even be completed in EIII. There is 18 years between EIII and EIV, so the building and completion of the station could occur between films. After all, the building of the second one only took about 4 years to near completion. Palpatine would likely wait until after he's declared himself Emperor, before he started construction. Since the first one is a prototype, it would have likely taken twice as much time to build. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jaff
01-05-2003, 02:51 AM
I'm going to debate that because Owen is very hostile towards Ben trying to hide who he is. Ben has all the answers, but Owen doesn't want luke to know. Obviously Ben is to be the blame of all of Owen/Anakin's relationship, and the death of his mother. And owen said that Anakin flew a spice freighter. Somewhere Owen and Anakin will debate his involvement in the clone wars per the suggestions in Ep IV. Owen knows that Anakin is Darth Vader, and is a traitor of such. To have ben hiding around a corner watching over luke is a remainder of that shame. Hence Ben will remain the outsider most likely out of guilt. Besides a pregnant padme cannot hide that she is married to a jedi, nor could Anakin be a jedi because yoda and his political council would see right through him. It's possible that Anakin could not be on tatooine, but I highly doubt that. In II Anakin said life is simpler if your fixing things. He longs for a simpler life, it's a classic foreshadow. He will leave the order for that simple life, padme will go with him. They will seperate. Someone will suggest something happened to padme, hence anakin will think his unborn children are dead until the end of episode IV. Anakin will then blame the Jedi, palpatine will coax him on in encouragement and manipulation. Jedi will run for cover. Anakin fights obi-wan. Anakin looses. Anakin is Darth Vader. Padme thinks anakin dead. Yoda is smuggled to Dagobah. Padme goes with Bail organa to Alderan. The real question is what about the droids and how does the twins get seperated. Ben goes into hiding into the one place anakin doesnt want to return. The planet where his mother died, and his simple life was lost. Of course this is all my conjecture, so challenge me guys. Add to it or chew it up, cause I really love talking shop.

Beast
01-05-2003, 03:09 AM
Good points, but a few comments. Owen is hostile, because he blames Obi-Wan for everything that happened. Owen lied to Luke, telling him that Anakin that was a navigator on a spice freighter, but we know that thats a lie. He's a Jedi, which is somthing that Owen has kept from Luke. Probably because he didn't want to fill Luke's head with tales of excitement, and make him want to leave Tatooine and look for adventure.

Note also that Anakin doesn't like Tatooine. His comments to Padme on Naboo, show his distaste for the planet. Of course, the loss of his mother may change his mind on that. But it's more likely that they could be on Naboo. They could wind up on Tatooine, for the above reasons.

Anakin will most likely have no knowledge of Padme's pregnancy, she probably will keep it from him so that he's not worried. If he does know, he'll only think there is one child. From the dialogue in the OT, it sounds like the only ones that will know are Obi-Wan, Yoda, Owen, Beru, and likely Palpatine.

Remeber what Obi-Wan says on Dagobah in ROTJ. "The Emperor knew as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, that they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonamous." So it seems like it's possible that Vader did know, and actually allowed Obi-Wan to live and Owen and Beru to raise Luke. It would follow that Owen would want to make sure that Luke never wanted to leave Tatooine.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jaff
01-05-2003, 03:26 AM
True true, but Anakin is full of personal conflicts. I want to be a jedi, I love padme. I am angry, I am better than this. Thus I think he will go for tatooine out of guilt for leaving it in the first place. I think your right on when you say he'll be on naboo, after all that too could be a foreshadow when he spoke about how much he likes it there.

As for the emperor knowing that the kids are alive I doubt. If you watch all the star wars films Vader looks up to palpatine as a father, and palpatine uses this. Vader trusts him, and I don't believe despite popular opinion that vader turns to save his son. Throughout all the films vader hunts down luke, and after luke refuses his father to join him vader stands there confused watching his son fall. Then he no doubt reports to his emperor, who hates the jedi as much as Vader does. To vader Luke is likened to a confused boy who serves the jedi who destroyed his life, and palpatine more than likely gets popular support later by blaming the seperatist problems on the jedi who did not see the crisis. As yoda says they have many enemies. Obviouslly palpatine is naysaying jedi secretly as he did with valorum. So after Luke leaves Jabba he goes to vader. Luke tries to turn vader and vader says (not quoting): Damn boy you really are confused, lets go see palpatine and straighten you out. Luke arrives, vader protects his emperor from this confused boy, and in the end luke attacks anakin hatefully. Obviously Vader is not pleased at his sons attitude. So vader gets up listening to his son say he's not going to be like his old man after palpatine says: Fulfil your destiny and take your fathers place at my side! It takes a little bit for this to register in Vader. He looks back and forth trying to make sense of palpatines words. Then it comes to him: Crap! That son of a ***** wanted my kid to kill me. He was using me all along. My life is a lie. The rest is history. This loving bond between vader and his emperor is the only thing that keeps vader in check until the end of episode VI. The emperor would have killed luke if he knew he was alive to keep vaders loyalties in check.

Something severe has to turn anakin. The death of padme seems to be good, but Lucas is a dramatist, so Anakin will most likely know she is pregnant. After all killing all the jedi you once dreamed of joining with would not be easy without a driving hatred. Killing my mom, children, and wife would be it with ease.

Jedi Clint
01-05-2003, 09:01 PM
Anakin's decent into darkness increases in pace dramatically after his former friend, master, and father figure puts him in a walking iron lung. Palpatine holds the only key the mutilated and broken Skywalker has to any chance of revenge against Kenobi as well as access to power greater than any he has possessed before.

Anakin Skywalker will NOT sit out the Clone Wars. They started at the end of AOTC, and they will end at the beginning of E3.

Anakin, "We could keep it a secret."
Padme, "We'd be living a lie. I couldn't do that. Could you Anakin?"
Anakin, "No. You're right. It would destroy us."

Keeping their secret will destroy their relationship and their lives. Padme can't be seen pregnant in the political arena without someone finding out who the father is (which would put an end to her career whether she wanted it to or not). It is at that point that she will exit politics even though a great turning point in the Republic is coming.

Anakin will fight for his Chancellor and the Republic during the clone wars. And when he has time, he will see his wife. She will never have the opportunity to tell him that she is pregnant. He won't return to her for many months before the battle that ends the wars.

The events that lead Obi Wan to duel with Anakin will be directly related to Palpatine's manipulation on a galactic level and who decides what side of the line they want to be on. Yoda, Obi Wan, the rest of the Jedi, Bail Organa, Padme and a few others will choose to rebel against Palpatine as they know him for what he really is, but not Anakin.

Obi Wan's discussion with Luke in ANH was laced with motivational comments by the elder Jedi. He needed Luke to go with him and leave the homestead behind. He worked on Luke's rebellious feelings toward his Uncle's expectations in order to accomplish this goal.

stillakid
01-05-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Obi-Wan loves to twist the facts around though, stating things from his "certain point of view" when he was talking to Luke in ANH.

Just when did this ever happen except for his initial discussion with Luke? :confused: What qualifies the statement that "Obi Wan loves to twist the facts around..."?

In fact, he didn't twist any facts. He believed the personality of Anakin to be truly dead and that's what he told Luke. Where's the lie?

gtrain29
01-06-2003, 01:06 AM
Yeah, I've never bought into the whole "obi-wan is a big liar" thing either. I think the reason he told luke the certain point of view story was because he had convinced himself of that over the years as a hermit. Think of the guilt associated with losing the most promising and powerful jedi to the dark side. He eventually had to believe that anakin was lost due to the persona of vader -- not b/c of obi-wan's own shortcomings of being to young and inexperienced to train an aprentice.

I also think anakin had to know padme was pregnant or else he would never have believed luke was his son. besides, the shock of believing her killed and blaming it on the jedi -- mainly obi-wan -- would really help his conversion to the dark side.

finally, I don't know if it has been mentioned that yoda is the only one who knows about leia. obi-wan is completely clueless when he says "that boy was our last hope." I think yoda is the only one present at the birth. he gives luke to obi-wan to deliver to tatooine without him ever knowing about leia.

mini-rock
01-06-2003, 02:58 AM
OK I have a question for your queation gtrain. Do we know for a fact that Yoda was reffering to Leia when he made that comment to Obi-Wan?:)

Jaff
01-06-2003, 06:08 AM
"no there is another!" Says yoda. The answer to that is VADER. Yoda knows he is old and dying. There is no way he has time left to train Leia to be a jedi. Therefore it's up to luke to carry on. The hope is that Vader will see the light and destroy his emperor.

As far as obi-wan being a liar the truth is that he like the rest of the jedi of the republic are nothing more than enlightened politicians. "The sith has been gone for a millenium." That's why qui gon shows impatience towards them. Even yoda plays with qui-gons words in episode I. They serve the senate and their politics. Qui gon does not hold with their ideas and that is why obi-wan and him are always butting heads. Ben was initially trained by yoda, thus he always tries to talk his way out of everything. He debates with Nass in gunga much to qui-gons annoyance, just watch his face when obi-wan starts talking. Qui gon tries to teach ben to stop thinking like a politician and start trusting life by letting it happen. Qui gon is trying to say "we here to make the galaxy better, not to run it or judge it." Ben is a perfect example of the jedi politics. That is why he does politically bend the truth, and that is why Anakin and his relationship is allready stressed. The first lesson anakin had as a jedi was from qui-gon. "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." Obi-wan has been trying to beat that out of Anakin ever since. Anakin has no love for politics, and feels like an outsider from the jedi because of this. I'm not saying that ben is a liar, nor all the other jedi, but they all are manipulative and are sitting on a high pedestal. They may be wise, but their station is getting to their heads, and that arrogance will be their downfall. To quote yoda: "A flaw more and more common, even in the older and wisest of the jedi". The answer is: Qui gon was right - we are arrogant, and we have many enemies because of it.

stillakid
01-06-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
"no there is another!" Says yoda. The answer to that is VADER. Yoda knows he is old and dying. There is no way he has time left to train Leia to be a jedi. Therefore it's up to luke to carry on. The hope is that Vader will see the light and destroy his emperor.

No.



Originally posted by Jaff

Ben is a perfect example of the jedi politics. That is why he does politically bend the truth,

What specific examples from the 5 films thus far can you cite to support this? I'll take the reply in either list form or fully expanded upon essay.

Beast
01-06-2003, 02:46 PM
The fact that Ben himself admits to twisting the facts, in ROTJ. He gives his little "certain point of view" speech, which is just his way of spinning the lies that he tells Luke in ANH so that Luke doesn't hate him for it. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-06-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The fact that Ben himself admits to twisting the facts, in ROTJ. He gives his little "certain point of view" speech, which is just his way of spinning the lies that he tells Luke in ANH so that Luke doesn't hate him for it. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

He admitted to no such thing. You're misrepresenting his words and misinterpreting his original intentions for what he told Luke.

Again, I ask, for anyone to list the numerous lies and deceipts that we've witnessed Obi Wan spew out in 5 of the 6 films of the saga. Anyone? Anyone?

Beast
01-06-2003, 07:40 PM
Now your just arguing semantics. The fact is, that Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke the whole truth in ANH. He only tells him things to get him excited and pump him up, so that he'll want go with him. Little white or big and bold, he still lies to Luke. His "Different Points of View" explanation, doesn't change the fact he didn't tell the truth. :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
01-06-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Now your just arguing semantics. The fact is, that Obi-Wan didn't tell Luke the whole truth in ANH. He only tells him things to get him excited and pump him up, so that he'll want go with him. Little white or big and bold, he still lies to Luke. His "Different Points of View" explanation, doesn't change the fact he didn't tell the truth. :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

This isn't semantics. It's what he said plain and simple. It wasn't a lie. He did tell the truth...from his point of view...which was that, for all intents and purposes, the personality of Anakin was dead. The body was still partially walking around with the aid of computers and mechanical parts, but essentially, for Obi Wan, Anakin was very dead. Almost like a tragic dual personality tale when the evil side obliterates the good.

This is why the character of Luke is sooooo very important. He's the only one in the galaxy not ready to write Vader/Anakin off yet. "There is still good in him," he laments. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil," Spirit Ben responds. Even with Luke's continual insistence that Anakin can be saved, Ben can't see through to changing his view of the situation. It's only because of the unfaltering belief of one simple man from a back world in the middle of nowhere, that the fate of the galaxy is saved from eternal doom. (of course, that's what it was before Midichlorians turned Luke into a superhero, but that's another discussion.)

It wasn't a lie at all. It was most certainly exactly what he said. Anakin was killed by Darth Vader. Not only was that absolute TRUTH to Obi Wan, even if it wasn't, it wouldn't have done Luke any good to know that Darth Vader occupied the body of his father. For all Ben knew, it was a lost cause. Why torment Luke with information that was essentially useless? Better to let the boy live out his life believing that his father was a hero than to crush him with the knowledge that his father was actually a weak minded fool who let himself become seduced to evil. And that's not manipulation...it's compassion. Don't mistake the two.


But that's almost beside the point. The statements above claim that Obi Wan is a two faced, out for himself at any opportunity, double fisted L I A R. I'm STILL waiting for further examples from any of the five films that illustrate this contention. But I know they won't be forthcoming primarily because they don't exist. The fact is, if Obi Wan was the rat fink LIAR you portray him to be, we should have seen several clear examples of it by now. His character had a little screen time in TPM and at least a third of AOTC. If what you claim was true, we should have seen him lying at nearly every opportunity he had to open his mouth. Maybe you guys got a different version of the Prequels where you're at, but I haven't seen any evidence of it over here.

Jaff
01-06-2003, 11:10 PM
stillakid's points are valid, but i never stated that obi-wan was a liar in any way. I stated that he was a politician. He manipulates facts, and anyone who pays attention to all the movies cannot deny this if they really pay attention to the movies. The point is that the Jedi are their own enemies. They are all politicians, out of date, and an archaic form. They are lackeys for the senate, and obi-wan has the republic jedi way of negotiation. Negotiation is the art of bending words to get your own way usually. Qui-gon is looked down upon by all the jedi because he, like his master dooku, does things their own way. They trust in the mechanics of the universe, thus the living force. Obi-wan is judgemental and tries to talk his way by attempting to persuade others to do what HE thinks is right whether it is or not. Example: He steps out of place in Oota Gunga trying to persuade Nass against his own point of view: "You must see this!" he says. Qui gon does not try to change their point of view, he only asks for help. That is why qui-gon sternly says near the end: "We will not use our powers to help her." Lets also not forget the "Why do I get the sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform!" By training the Jedi act better than others. Look how the council treats Qui-gon. Then in episode IV and V we see the circle. Ben acts allot like Qui-Gon. Only after the end of the republic can he see qui-gon's lesson. It was his own arrogance and judgemental nature that alienated and suppressed Anakin. So now he trusts in the force, and in the end against darth does he give into it. However Ben still has the political manipulation with words: Hence - a certain point of view.

And saying NO to my quote above is not saying much tell me why I should respond to that. That is what Yoda means. Ben can't train Leia, and Yoda is very weak in V. Three years later he dies. Leia is not in touch with the force like luke. She too is entrenched in political dogma. Vader is the chosen one, not luke. Because it's vader who kills the emperor and saves the good in the end.

Beast
01-06-2003, 11:11 PM
Yes it is semantics, because it's not the truth. Even if it's from his point of view, doesn't mean it's the truth. And you can't site the prequels for lack of evidence to Obi-Wan's lying. Because he's a different person in the prequels then he is in the OT. Just like Vader he goes thru a change, that turns him into a different person. He twists the truth, just to spare Luke's feelings and get him excited to go with him.

Even if it's told under the most noble of intentions, its still a lie. It may be only a little white lie, because he's twisting the facts around. But a lie by any other name, still is the same thing. Obi-Wan knows the truth, but he decides to conceal it from Luke. Therefor, no matter how much he uses the "Different Points of View" stuff, it's still a lie.

Even Ben's comments in ROTJ point to the fact he still knows and considers him Anakin Skywalker. "He's more machine now then man, twisted and evil." He still acknowledges him as being Anakin Skwalker, no matter how much he's become Darth Vader. Obi-Wan never gives Luke the whole truth up until ROTJ. You may not consider it a lie, but it's hardly the truth.

The Midiclorians that you have some strange sick facination with bringing up every time you really start rambling does not turn Luke into a Super Hero. Everyone has them, everyone has the potential. Just the higher the number, the better the chance the person has of being a good pupil. It's no differnt then a IQ test, it just gauges potential. They still require training to fulfill that potentiel.

Just look at Luke in ANH, he doesn't know how to do anything with the force. Just like Anakin in TPM, he does get some advanced knowledge from the ammount, but he still needs training to actually tap them. That's why he has to use the little magnetic thing in the pod racer to grab the cable. If he could tap the force without training, it would have just jumped into his grasp when he wanted it.

You even state in your argument that Obi-Wan is twisting the facts to Luke. "Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't have done Luke any good to know that Darth Vader occupied the body of his father". Yeah, and the fact that he wouldn't have trusted Obi-Wan at all, had Obi-Wan told him the truth. Like he does in ROTJ, when he tells Luke that he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda, and that he was wrong. He's no longer twisting the truth with that "certain point of view" stuff, he's finally owning up to what happened and telling Luke the truth. Hence, he lied to him in ANH.

Another thing you say intrests me. "Why torment Luke with information that was essentially useless." Exactly the point we have been trying to beat into you since the beginning. Why should Obi-Wan bother to ever mention Qui-Gon in the sequels. Because it's useless info. He was trained by Yoda, until he was of age to be taken by Qui-Gon for his training to be complete. Qui-Gon is dead, can't help Luke anymore. Why should Obi-Wan give Luke info that is essentally useless. Just the same with Midiclorians. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Luke has a substantial ammount of Midi's, so why tell Luke? It's useless information, because he's already pegged at being a good choice for training.

"And that's not manipulation...it's compassion. Don't mistake the two." It's still a lie, whether done for manipulation or compassion. A lie is a lie, no matter the reasons why it's told. If Obi-Wan still was sticking by this "Certain Point of View" thing, he wouldn't tell Luke the truth in ROTJ, because he already did in ANH....from his "certain point of view". He lied to Luke in ANH to spare his feelings, and to get him excited to follow him on his damn fool idealistic crusade. Like Anakin did. :)

He is two faced, he's not lieing to be mean or cruel though. But they are still lies. Whether he tells them to spare Luke's feelings, or cause he's fooled himself to believing them. You know that there arn't any examples from the prequels, cause the fall hasn't happened yet. And he isn't a big enough charecter in ESB or ROTJ to actually run his "certain point of view" BS by anyone. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jaff
01-07-2003, 11:18 AM
Jar Jar's notations are very strong on this last post. Stillakid I would love to hear your point of view too. After all, however this topic has went a little off topic. Debating if obi-wan was a liar or not is not the main reason I started this thread. I want to know what others think is going to happen in the next movie and why, or I want others to challenge someones assumption and why. Stillakid's and any other opinions are very welcome.

stillakid
01-07-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
stillakid's points are valid, but i never stated that obi-wan was a liar in any way. I stated that he was a politician. He manipulates facts,

I'll stop you right there. This is the list I'm looking for. What "facts" has he manipulated, beyond perhaps the Anakin identity crisis?

The implication with the above statement is that Obi Wan's inherent nature is to be dishonest and that furthermore, he doesn't think twice before twisting the truth to get his way. I haven't seen any evidence of this at all in any of the five movies thus far.


Originally posted by Jaff

and anyone who pays attention to all the movies cannot deny this if they really pay attention to the movies. The point is that the Jedi are their own enemies. They are all politicians, out of date, and an archaic form. They are lackeys for the senate, and obi-wan has the republic jedi way of negotiation. Negotiation is the art of bending words to get your own way usually.
Perhaps they are their own worst enemies at this story point in history. By George's own words in the forward for the novelization of Star Wars, he says that the Republic was rotting from the inside. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they were politicians though. They were essentially cops, or the "muscle" in the grand scheme of things despite their religious overtones. I'll touch on the last sentence about negotiation in a little bit.


Originally posted by Jaff

Qui-gon is looked down upon by all the jedi because he, like his master dooku, does things their own way. They trust in the mechanics of the universe, thus the living force.
That's conjecture on your part. Based on what we've seen on screen, nobody at this point can have a clue what Qui Gon meant by the living force. Qui Gon may be looked down upon, but again, we can't really know that for sure either.


Originally posted by Jaff

Obi-wan is judgemental and tries to talk his way by attempting to persuade others to do what HE thinks is right whether it is or not. Example: He steps out of place in Oota Gunga trying to persuade Nass against his own point of view: "You must see this!" he says. Qui gon does not try to change their point of view, he only asks for help.
You've arrived at a very odd conclusion. First that Obi Wan was stepping out of line be speaking up. Second that this "symbiotic relationship" was ONLY Obi Wan's point of view. Like it or not, there are some absolutes in this Universe. Obi Wan was just trying to break through the stubborn prejudices of an alien race to help them see the situation as it truly existed. It wasn't his "point of view" at all. It was merely fact.


Originally posted by Jaff

That is why qui-gon sternly says near the end: "We will not use our powers to help her."
I disagree. The alternative to "not using our powers to help her" would have been to put a Jedi Mind Meld on every Gungan on the planet. Qui Gon saw the futility in that. But even more important for the relationship between the Gungans and the humans was that they learn to cooperate. Using reason was ultimately going to be effective where using "Jedi powers" wouldn't.


Originally posted by Jaff

Lets also not forget the "Why do I get the sense we've picked up another pathetic lifeform!" By training the Jedi act better than others. Look how the council treats Qui-gon.
Again, conjecture. I'll admit that this line is open to interpretation, but there is nothing else in the saga that supports that conclusion. I took the line as George's attempt at comedy. Ep I was chock full of those. Had that line occurred in the more deliberate Episode II script, then I might be swayed, but not at the moment.


Originally posted by Jaff

Then in episode IV and V we see the circle. Ben acts allot like Qui-Gon.
How so? I don't see any parallels at all.


Originally posted by Jaff

Only after the end of the republic can he see qui-gon's lesson. It was his own arrogance and judgemental nature that alienated and suppressed Anakin.
We don't know that. So far, Anakin has erupted into several temper tantrums without just cause, especially when it comes to Obi Wan. He even ADMITS it in AOTC:

PADME
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
I know.

Until Ep III hits the screens, we can't have a clear idea of exactly what is driving Anakin's "rage." So far it's a random collection of outbursts, not unlike from someone who is bi-polar. Regardless, I certainly wouldn't lay any justified blame on Obi Wan by labeling him arrogant and judgmental. Spirit Ben's words were, "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." His failure wasn't in being arrogant or being a LIAR. His failure was in not being a good enough teacher to truly recognize the fragile stage of training the Anakin was in. Spirit Ben and Yoda saw this exact situation with Luke in ESB and tried to stop it. That's why they implore him to not leave. That's why Obi Wan thought that the galaxy was doomed. He truly believed that all the goodness in Anakin was dead and it would ultimately lead to Luke's destruction as well, either in "spirit" (just like the Anakin personality) or in just plain old death. Ben had no desire to fail twice, once with the father, twice with the son.



Originally posted by Jaff
So now he trusts in the force, and in the end against darth does he give into it.
I have yet to see him not "trust in the force." Examples? :confused:


Originally posted by Jaff

However Ben still has the political manipulation with words: Hence - a certain point of view.
Examples?


Originally posted by Jaff

And saying NO to my quote above is not saying much tell me why I should respond to that. That is what Yoda means. Ben can't train Leia, and Yoda is very weak in V. Three years later he dies. Leia is not in touch with the force like luke. She too is entrenched in political dogma. Vader is the chosen one, not luke. Because it's vader who kills the emperor and saves the good in the end. I meant no, Vader was not the "other." He meant Leia. Heck, Ben even answers that directly in ROTJ:


LUKE
Yoda spoke of another...

BEN
The other that Yoda spoke of was your twin sister


Neither Ben nor Yoda saw a bright future after Luke took off the first time. They knew that he wasn't A) a strong enough fighter to take on Vader, and B) that the manipulative ways of the Sith might be too much for Luke's fragile mind. Yoda admits that even he didn't see Vader's "confession" to Luke coming. It was even worse than he thought it might be. Though we didn't see it, Yoda had to be really surprised and elated to see Luke knocking on his door once again. Both he and Yoda believed they had a second chance with Luke, but then Luke sticks it to them again by saying that he won't kill his own father. But, of course, Spirit Ben really believes that A) Anakin can never be retrieved from death, and B) that Leia can never be trained either well enough nor quick enough to make much of a difference. "The Emperor has already won."


Originally posted by Jaff
Jar Jar's notations are very strong on this last post. Stillakid I would love to hear your point of view too. After all, however this topic has went a little off topic. Debating if obi-wan was a liar or not is not the main reason I started this thread. I want to know what others think is going to happen in the next movie and why, or I want others to challenge someones assumption and why. Stillakid's and any other opinions are very welcome.

Yes, I apologize for taking over this thread with a divergent discussion, however there are conclusions being drawn from errant, er, uh...points of view. ;) They need to be addressed.

In short, what we'll see in Episode III is Obi Wan not lying again, and him somehow seeing (finally) the road that Anakin is taking. He'll spend much of the movie trying to chase him down and stop him. In typical Anakin fashion, he'll continue his rant that Obi Wan is just trying to "hold him back." That will ultimately lead to the infamous fight and the rest is history. :)

stillakid
01-07-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Yes it is semantics, because it's not the truth.
You're taking his words out of context, painting him as a rat-fink liar, then using that as justification to prop up other problems with the story. That's the problem.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Even if it's from his point of view, doesn't mean it's the truth.
All right, let's hit it from the other side. What was untrue about what Ben said? Is it not true that "Darth Vader" betrayed and murdered "Anakin?"


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

And you can't site the prequels for lack of evidence to Obi-Wan's lying. Because he's a different person in the prequels then he is in the OT. Just like Vader he goes thru a change, that turns him into a different person. He twists the truth, just to spare Luke's feelings and get him excited to go with him.
Why not? Every moment onscreen paints the whole picture of the character. But using your logic for the sake of argument, there still are not further examples in the OT of Obi Wan being a manipulative selfish political liar.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Even if it's told under the most noble of intentions, its still a lie. It may be only a little white lie, because he's twisting the facts around. But a lie by any other name, still is the same thing. Your definition is fine, but your application isn't. Obi Wan didn't "twist" anything. He told Luke EXACTLY what he himself believed to be true: that Anakin was in fact D E A D...dead.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Obi-Wan knows the truth, but he decides to conceal it from Luke. Therefor, no matter how much he uses the "Different Points of View" stuff, it's still a lie. What did he conceal? That Anakin was "alive?" But he didn't believe that himself.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Even Ben's comments in ROTJ point to the fact he still knows and considers him Anakin Skywalker. "He's more machine now then man, twisted and evil." That's not a "proof of reference" to that body/entity/human as "Anakin." He was responding to Luke's insistence that "there is still good in him." You're once again taking statements out of context and arriving at erroneous conclusions because of it. A story is a collection of individual moments that can have infinite interpretations until placed side by side with other moments. You can't just yank one out randomly and treat it like it exists on it's own.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

He still acknowledges him as being Anakin Skwalker, no matter how much he's become Darth Vader.
No, he didn't. Not ever.



Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Obi-Wan never gives Luke the whole truth up until ROTJ. You may not consider it a lie, but it's hardly the truth.
You're half-right here. Obi Wan didn't paint the complete picture, but this gets back to why he said "point of view." From Obi Wan's "point of view," it was fact. Anakin was dead. Vader murdered him. That's all that was really important. It was very true...to him.

The second part of that discussion is why didn't he paint that picture for Luke. This is where some people want to portray Ben as a manipulative liar and others don't see it at all.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

The Midiclorians that you have some strange sick facination with bringing up every time you really start rambling does not turn Luke into a Super Hero.
Once again, it's all connected. Not one element of a story exists in a vaccuum. Drop one domino, some others are bound to fall. I've been through the Midi discussion before though, which is why I wrote, "but that's another discussion." :) But to bring it back to the topic at hand, I have no proof, but I sincerely doubt that there will be any references any more to Midichlorians in EpIII or in the re-edited definitive editions of the Original Trilogy.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Everyone has them, everyone has the potential. Just the higher the number, the better the chance the person has of being a good pupil. It's no differnt then a IQ test, it just gauges potential. They still require training to fulfill that potentiel.
Yeah, I understand what Lucas was going for and it's all well and good. But it doesn't mesh with the story that was written back in the Seventies. He's altered the way we are supposed to view Luke. Now, because we can never really relate to him in any meaningful way, our role as audience members has shifted from "empathy" with him to "sympathy" for him.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Just look at Luke in ANH, he doesn't know how to do anything with the force.
Exactly, just like I explained above. Lucas hasn't re-edited the OT yet, so Luke's training and ultimate success derives from his internal fortitude and desire for truth and justice. But with the introduction of Midi's into his blood, he's been blessed with SuperHuman abilities that take the onus off his commitment to really learning about the Force. In short, he doesn't really have to TRY anymore. He got a free pass to Jedi-hood.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Just like Anakin in TPM, he does get some advanced knowledge from the ammount, but he still needs training to actually tap them. That's why he has to use the little magnetic thing in the pod racer to grab the cable. If he could tap the force without training, it would have just jumped into his grasp when he wanted it.
Then what are the extraneous amounts of Midi's for then, if not to give him that extra "boost" when he needs it? Why introduce them at all? (I already know that answer for that so don't bother. ;) )


Originally posted by JarJarBinks

You even state in your argument that Obi-Wan is twisting the facts to Luke.
No, I didn't say that. You've got a bad habit of taking things out of context. The paragraph was in regards to "why" Obi Wan told Luke what he did in the way he did. So what I was saying was that (despite Obi believing that Anakin was truly dead), even if he didn't believe that, telling Luke would have been a useless enterprise. I never said that Obi was "twisting the facts."


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
"Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't have done Luke any good to know that Darth Vader occupied the body of his father". Yeah, and the fact that he wouldn't have trusted Obi-Wan at all, had Obi-Wan told him the truth. Why wouldn't Luke have trusted Obi Wan at that point? If Obi Wan did tell him that his father's body was still running around the galaxy with an evil personality, just what would Luke's reason be to suddenly dis-trust Ben? Of course, as we're seeing in the Prequels, Anakin has a tendency to fly off the handle without justification, so maybe Ben fears that Luke might follow in dad's footsteps. Maybe you have a case there.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Like he does in ROTJ, when he tells Luke that he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda, and that he was wrong. He's no longer twisting the truth with that "certain point of view" stuff, he's finally owning up to what happened and telling Luke the truth. Hence, he lied to him in ANH.
Hence, he didn't lie. He did offer up the connect the dots details that he left out, but he still believes Anakin to be very dead even at that point. He didn't alter his story one bit. To Ben, Anakin is DEAD and an evil marauding Sith Lord occupies what used to be his body.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Another thing you say intrests me. "Why torment Luke with information that was essentially useless." Exactly the point we have been trying to beat into you since the beginning. Why should Obi-Wan bother to ever mention Qui-Gon in the sequels. Because it's useless info.
Apples and Oranges. The conclusions drawn by these two incidents are entirely different. The point of the Obi Wan discussion with Luke on Tatooine was to tell Luke what happened to his father. Expanding on the details of the situation AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME would have been useless to Luke and potentially detrimental to him at the same time. Take the hypothetical situation and imagine what Luke might have done if Ben had told him all the details. Luke either would have:

A) fallen to pieces and drooled on himself in a corner for the rest of his days

B) joined Obi Wan in a quest to save the galaxy

C) run off to "find his father."

Probably not A. B could have happened, but Ben probably couldn't bet the farm on it, for fear of C. Luke might have the inclination to go seek out "Vader" at that moment without any training at all. We know that Yoda is watching Luke (ESB) so there are definite hopes that Luke can save the galaxy. Risking the fate of the Republic is unnecessary. And it's not because Obi Wan is "manipulating" Luke with a LIE. It's because they (now apparently) know that he's chock full o' midichlorians and can potentially destroy Vader and the Emperor. Of course, they don't forsee that he doesn't just outright kill them. Luke's stubborn belief that Anakin isn't dead turns out to be true, lo and behold. Ben was wrong. I'm sure that's why Spirit Ben looked so happy standing there on Endor when Anakin wisped into view.


The Qui Gon thing is something else entirely. Several moments within the OT paint the picture that Obi Wan was trained by Yoda ONLY and that Obi Wan was the one who found Anakin, recognized his potential, and decided to train him. So when Obi Wan tells Luke, "You will go to the Dagobah system. You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me," many of the audience members who were actually paying attention were a little surprised when this guy Qui Gon shows up in Episode I. There's a difference between information that is necessary and information that is already established.



Originally posted by JarJarBinks
He was trained by Yoda, until he was of age to be taken by Qui-Gon for his training to be complete.
That's not what was established in the OT (see above), but it's not just about the training (see above).


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Qui-Gon is dead, can't help Luke anymore. Why should Obi-Wan give Luke info that is essentally useless. It's not about information that is useless or not in this case. It's about being true to established continuity. Yes, Yoda is the only one left alive who can train Luke, but first, like I said, Obi says, "You will go to the Dagobah system. You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." And second, it's not just the training that is the problem with introducing the Qui Gon character. It was also established that Obi Wan was the one who found Anakin, recognized his potential, then decided to train him. Now this other guy pops up out of nowhere and does all of that. After all this time, I'm still very perplexed about why this is not clear. :confused:


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Just the same with Midiclorians. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Luke has a substantial ammount of Midi's, so why tell Luke? It's useless information, because he's already pegged at being a good choice for training.
Why not tell Luke? Time is of the essence. Telling Luke would enable him to take a kind of shortcut to "feeling" the Force. Instead of a bunch of meaningly spiritual phrases (ie, "reach out with your feelings"), it would have been far more effective to say, "Look, Luke, you come from a line of humans that for some reason have an unusually large concentration of Midichlorians in your blood." Then of course says, "Midichlorians?" Then Ben and/or Yoda continue with explanation about what they are and how they work, etc etc etc. Luke gets from point A to point B that much faster, he goes to fight Vader and the Emperor and everybody lives happily ever after.

But we all have a strong suspicion that Lucas did not have Midi's in mind when he first wrote Star Wars, so that's the real reason why they're not in the OT.

Additionally, he also knows that the general populace did not take to Midi's very well when they saw TPM. I conjecture that this is why there was no mention of them in AOTC and why there will also be no mention of them in Episode III.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
"And that's not manipulation...it's compassion. Don't mistake the two." It's still a lie, whether done for manipulation or compassion. A lie is a lie, no matter the reasons why it's told.
It wasn't a lie. It was what Ben believed. That Anakin was, for all intents and purposes, dead. Ben told Luke the Truth as he truly saw it. If he instead told Luke, "Look, Luke, there's this evil guy named Darth Vader running around killing people. See, he used to be your father but the Dark Side of the Force seduced him and that "good" personality was kind of like, uh, killed, see, and the "bad" personality, you know, took over." Then naive young Luke would have immediately jumped up thinking that he might be able to "save" dear old dad from the "bad" personality. Obi, truly believing that there was no hope for Anakin, would have had a really tough time convincing Luke to not run off and face a similar fate. It wasn't a lie. It was what Ben believed.



Originally posted by JarJarBinks
If Obi-Wan still was sticking by this "Certain Point of View" thing, he wouldn't tell Luke the truth in ROTJ, because he already did in ANH....from his "certain point of view".
He didn't change his story, though, from one movie to another. The ROTJ version had a few more details, but the underlying TRUTH for Obi Wan still existed...that Anakin was dead because "Darth Vader" killed him.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
He lied to Luke in ANH to spare his feelings, and to get him excited to follow him on his damn fool idealistic crusade. Like Anakin did. :)
He didn't lie to Luke. He told him what he believed to be truth, that Anakin was dead. Why he told him the story without the mitigating details was to A) keep Luke from running off at that moment with the potential for meeting the same fate as Anakin, and B) yes, with the hopes that Luke could be convinced to train as a Jedi and kill Vader and the Emperor. We know that because of what Yoda says in ESB: "A long time this one I have watched..." But Obi didn't know how he was going to accomplish it. He had no way of knowing that they'd run into the blasted remains of dead Jawas which would lead Luke back to an obliterated home. It wasn't manipulation. It was protection. It wasn't a lie.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
He is two faced, he's not lieing to be mean or cruel though. But they are still lies. Whether he tells them to spare Luke's feelings, or cause he's fooled himself to believing them.
That's symantics! :) Two faced, maybe. I'll agree he didn't tell the story the way he did to be mean, as I described above. He did it A) because that's what he really believed, and B) to protect Luke.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
You know that there arn't any examples from the prequels, cause the fall hasn't happened yet. And he isn't a big enough charecter in ESB or ROTJ to actually run his "certain point of view" BS by anyone. :)

So one minor incident in Episode IV of a 6 part series dooms Obi Wan to being defamed as a rat fink LIAR throughout the whole thing? :confused:

Sooo, he only becomes a rat fink liar after Anakin turns to the Dark Side? What's the motivation?

If this character is supposed to be viewed as a rat fink LIAR by the audience, doesn't the author of the story have any responsibility to set that potential up early on in the story when the character is being introduced? Or can a character's "personality" just change 180 degrees with no motivation or setup?

Just for arguments sake, if he did have more screentime in the OT, just who would he lie to and what about?

Jaff
01-07-2003, 02:41 PM
wonderful follow up stillakid. Great debating with you and Jar Jar. My "point of view" (no pun intended) is that Obi-wan's mentality is: It's my way or the highway, so he will manipulate events and opinions to get what he wants. Lets start with episode I. First I severly recomend that everyone who loves the movies read the novels. Most of my insight stems from them and the performances of the actors. Let's start at the beginning. Almost every line obi utters in I is a contradiction to qui-gon. Qui gon's facial expressions are constantly that of a annoyed father. Watch closely in the film. Also near the end of the film there are bruised feelings between obi-wan and qui-gon. In the council Qui gon states that he knows about the force but there is little more obi-wan can learn from him. My impression is that qui-gon has had enough of training this stubborn boy. He is intwined in political ways that do not concern him. Basically if he wants to be like the council then I (Qui-gon) don't have much to teach him. here is some healing at the end of the film both when the Royal starship lands and at Qui's death, and obi-wan is a man of his word. Thus he trains anakin despite his predelections that "the boy is dangerous.
So now we are in episode II. Anakin is literally beaten down by obi-wan's training. I'm not saying that obi-wan was mean or hostile towards him, but obi-wan is still trying to beat out the qui-gon in anakin. What am I talking about- here goes. First of all anakin was surrounded by a loving life. On tatooine he had his mother, he was usefull to watto, and then a jedi shows up and shows so much faith in him. He encourages anakin and tells him specifically not to think: "Trust your instincts" he says, and anakin does. Anakin is talent raw, and potent. Qui-gon realizes his talent. Obi-wan constantly supresses Anakin. Anyways Qui-gon takes him from home to a council that does not welcome him, and (heres the most important thing) a future master who says "the boy is dangerous" right when Anakin is in earshot. Watch episode I closely during that scene. Anakin is less than two feet away when obi-wan says this. He heard it, there is no doubt, because anakin quickly goes to qui-gon feeling uncomfortable. "I don't mean to be a problem!" He says because no one seems to like him but padme and Qui-gon. After Qui-gons death there is no excitement in anakins face when Ben tells him I will train you, in fact there is a pause in his facial features. This also explains why anakin is so enamored with Padme. She too is one of the last people who was open and kind to anakin after he left tatooine.

Jaff
01-07-2003, 03:10 PM
Anakin's turn has been showing in both episode I and II. He is short, uncomfortable, and he believes that he and his opinion does not matter. That is why he is constantly spiteful of obi-wan, because he represents the jedi's supression of him. Obi-Wan's conditioning has been political, lying has nothing to do with him. It is rather a state of mind. I'll use qui-gon for an example. Qui-gon gambles with watto (what jedi would do that), he assumes much. He puts faith in others where most jedi are always analyzing others. I have no examples other than the novelizations that describe that the jedi have many enemies, and that 20 jedi left the order because of it's mired nuetral stance towards the darkening of the republic. Even qui-gon is enfuriated with the council which is clearly seen in the TPM. Qui-Gon says: "I don't presume....." Then yoda quickly interupts: "But you do... revealed your opinion is!" Qui-Gon's face is that of frustration. The jedi argue what Jar Jar (in this forum) calls simantics. His frown is clear, and rather than debate like he is in the senate he says: "I request the boy be tested". Rather than give a yes or no Yoda just keeps Qui-gon hanging (like a politician would), everyone knows what qui-gon means, but yoda responds: "Trained as a jedi you request hmmm..." Qui gon seems a little tensed by this and flat out says: "Finding him was the WILL of the force, of that I have no doubt!" This leaves room for no debate, and it's like saying will you or won't you. Yoda turns to Mace and Mace's facial expression is that of "Here we go again." Obviously Qui-Gon is not a very accepted Jedi, hence Obi-Wan's trying to beat that out of Anakin, because he holds with the councils ideas by his actions and manerisms. Cut to episode II. Qui-Gon is not the only one who is infuriated with the jedi. Padme says to mace "I think it was count dooku who was behind the attack!" Mace grins at her like shes confused. "You know my lady dooku was once a jedi, it's not in his character!" Padme looks at Mace like he's a fool, and the book supports this in writting. Even Ki assumes by saying: "He's a political idealist, not a murderer!" Okay we know dooku does not kill anyone in II, everyone around him kills the jedi, he just watches, but Dooku has taken part in the killing so he is just as guilty by motives than Gunray, or Poggle. Yoda also concedes later that the jedi have many enemies, and if the jedi leaked out that they could not sense the new army then: "our enemies will multiply". My point is that the jedi are no good to anyone, they are simply people who once saved the universe from the sith. Now they sit supremely in a temple, and judge who is worthy of becoming a jedi and who is not. We all know that Jedi are negotiators for the truth. However they don't even know the truth in TPM or AOTC. The public probably sees them as many would see police officers in the world today - bullies, who think they know it all whether they are right or wrong. The jedi have an ego - so does obi-wan. Qui-gons beliefs are that of a true untainted jedi (this is my opinion, and it is pretty strong in me). He is not interested in politics or debating. He wants everyone to live their own life, and to live his own, without someone debating his every thought. Yoda always teaches his students to clear their minds. Qui-gon kept that lesson. Ambition, desires, arrogance - that is as yoda says a flaw that is very common in the jedi order. The real lessons Ben should have learned from qui was to be aware of the LIVING force. Thus this is the stepping stone for anakin's turning. He is an outsider, he does not like politics, since they hold him back. He trusts his instincts. Ben is always reserved except in "his point of view". I'm not saying that ben is a bad person, he is just a little brain washed by what i call a miring jedi order.

As far as the other conversation my belief is that if luke turned to the darkside who would bring balance: To suggest leia is very ammusing. Darth is an old man, he fights old as well. Luke is young, is in touch with the force, and has had some training. Ben is dead, his spirit can't just say: hey leia go to this place and talk to this green fellow, because she does not see ben in ROTJ's ending. Yoda might call her but after luke flies away to bespin 3 years have passed when he dies. Luke has had much more training than leia and she would not have a chance against him. Therefore I conclude that SW is about anakin. Lucas has said so. The other is that yoda finally puts faith in qui-gons thinking. Trust in the living force. Trust that Vader will finally figure out his wrongs and set things right. That is a full circle, and poetic. That is lucas' way of filming. And ben said the other he spoke of was leia. But the other was refered to by yoda as another skywalker. That conversation is seperate from: That boy is our last hope: "No, there is another." I say vader.

Wolfwood319
01-07-2003, 09:26 PM
Well, its happened....

Star Wars has surpassed Star Trek in the most geek obsessed fan base out there.

From a certain point of view, some people here need to get out once in awhile and think about something else besides Star Wars.

mini-rock
01-08-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Jaff
"no there is another!" Says yoda. The answer to that is VADER. Yoda knows he is old and dying. There is no way he has time left to train Leia to be a jedi. Therefore it's up to luke to carry on. The hope is that Vader will see the light and destroy his emperor.

Exactly! I didn't realize this 'til a few weeks ago when watching ESB. Anakin is the other that Yoda refers too. I was wondering if someone would say Vader when I had asked the question on the last page.

Jaff
01-08-2003, 05:28 AM
I am a husband, a father, a training manager for an entire state, as well as a movie critic for a newspaper wolfwood. I have little room for star wars and the fact that I debate star wars when i have the time does not mean that I don't have a life. Your generalized opinion means nothing to anyone on this post unless it is about the topics we speak of. When you write something like that it's clear that you don't have enough insight to offer a valid opinion, or you are just a judgemental fool. I have little else to say to your posting.

Great to have you on this thread mini-rock. I'm excited that you believe yoda is talking about vader. However there are others who do not believe this. Could you tell us how you came to the same conclusion as I.

stillakid
01-08-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
As far as the other conversation my belief is that if luke turned to the darkside who would bring balance: To suggest leia is very ammusing. Darth is an old man, he fights old as well. Luke is young, is in touch with the force, and has had some training. Ben is dead, his spirit can't just say: hey leia go to this place and talk to this green fellow, because she does not see ben in ROTJ's ending. Yoda might call her but after luke flies away to bespin 3 years have passed when he dies. Luke has had much more training than leia and she would not have a chance against him. Therefore I conclude that SW is about anakin. Lucas has said so. The other is that yoda finally puts faith in qui-gons thinking. Trust in the living force. Trust that Vader will finally figure out his wrongs and set things right. That is a full circle, and poetic. That is lucas' way of filming. And ben said the other he spoke of was leia. But the other was refered to by yoda as another skywalker. That conversation is seperate from: That boy is our last hope: "No, there is another." I say vader.

Still, no. It makes no sense. When Yoda says, "There is a...no...ther....Skyyyyy....walkerrrrr," it's AFTER they have the discussion and admission about Vader being his father. I see what you're getting at and with a certain amount of, ahem, "twisting the facts" ;) you could arrive at that conclusion I suppose. But the way it stands now, they were all talking about Leia.

No, she wasn't strong at that point and Ben and Yoda knew that Luke was their first best hope. When he "refused" to kill Vader, Ben figured that was it precisely because Leia was nowhere near ready to deal with the situation.

To make matters worse, Yoda didn't anticipate Vader revealing his identity to Luke. We can further conjecture logically that Yoda thought it through fully, knowing that Luke would find out about Leia then. That would lead to Vader and the Emperor having an "out." Vader and the Emperor knew before, that they either had to turn Luke or kill him. Now, with Leia in the picture, they could feel free to kill him off, then set their sights on the far more vulnerable "sister of Luke."

In the grand scheme of things, it goes back to your perception of whether Obi Wan )and Yoda for that matter) was a liar or not. Since I believe he wasn't, and that he did absolutely truly believe that Anakin was dead, he figured that only a fully trained Jedi could stand a chance against the Emperor and Vader. Luke was barely there himself, and with his refusal to kill "his own father," there was no one left who could seriously do it.

Ben never in a million years would have guessed that there was "still good in him." Only if they believed there to be good in Vader, then it could have been Anakin...but they didn't. Ben and Yoda really believed Anakin was dead. And because of that, the "other" had to be Leia.



Originally posted by Jaff
Now they sit supremely in a temple, and judge who is worthy of becoming a jedi and who is not. We all know that Jedi are negotiators for the truth. However they don't even know the truth in TPM or AOTC. The public probably sees them as many would see police officers in the world today - bullies, who think they know it all whether they are right or wrong. The jedi have an ego - so does obi-wan. Qui-gons beliefs are that of a true untainted jedi (this is my opinion, and it is pretty strong in me). He is not interested in politics or debating. He wants everyone to live their own life, and to live his own, without someone debating his every thought. Yoda always teaches his students to clear their minds. Qui-gon kept that lesson. Ambition, desires, arrogance - that is as yoda says a flaw that is very common in the jedi order. The real lessons Ben should have learned from qui was to be aware of the LIVING force. Thus this is the stepping stone for anakin's turning. He is an outsider, he does not like politics, since they hold him back. He trusts his instincts. Ben is always reserved except in "his point of view". I'm not saying that ben is a bad person, he is just a little brain washed by what i call a miring jedi order.


I do like where you're going with this, though. Let me try to boil it down and you tell me if I've got it right...

Essentially, as most purely benevolent (religious?) organizations go, they start out with the best of intentions and actually accomplish what they set out to do...at first.

Then, after some time, complacency sets in and the willingness to do what's right is superceded by the temptation to keep the status quo.

So, the Jedi have arrived at this point and would rather a guy like Qui Gon just chill out and follow tradition rather than truly open his mind and "see things as they are." While he's out trying to fight the good fight, the Jedi (and the Republic) rot from within. (Just like in the Prologue for the novelization...crazy, huh :crazed: )

It's at this point when things fall apart and it's too late for anyone to do anything about it. Try as he might, Qui Gon tries to encourage Obi to clear his mind of the "traditional" preconceptions his Jedi training has taught him, but Obi only begins to realize too late. You also conjecture that in much of those "missing years" (between Ep I and II), Anakin was "tainted" by this traditional training as well (despite the fact that there is no evidence that he was ever trained by anyone other than Obi Wan in that time). You're suggesting that as early as Episode I, Obi Wan was not seeing the universe for what it was as Qui Gon tried to do.

What you're saying about the Jedi in general works and makes sense, but you contradict your own conclusions concerning Obi Wan with this earlier statement:

Originally posted by Jaff
Obi-wan is judgemental and tries to talk his way by attempting to persuade others to do what HE thinks is right whether it is or not. Example: He steps out of place in Oota Gunga trying to persuade Nass against his own point of view: "You must see this!" he says.

If he was as close-minded (in the Jedi way) that you're suggesting, he wouldn't be trying to illustrate this absolute TRUTH to the Gungans. He is trying to help them see things just as Qui Gon is trying to get Obi and Anakin to see things. To shake off the prejudices of the past and to REALLY open their eyes to the truth.

Funny you bring this up. In many of the discussions regarding a variety of topics here, I've noticed similar tendencies (that you suggest the Jedi have) from other forumites. They invest themselves so much in one element or another (or in the entire saga), that they fail to or refuse to see flaws when they occur. When you're a fan of something, it is difficult to shake off the prejudices to really take a look at it objectively. Some things aren't a matter of interpretation. They just are. So, just like the story he's writing, George's franchise seems to be "rotting" from within. He became complacent with the idea that if it just looked like Star Wars, everyone would be happy. He became mired in the traditional way of movie studio thinking. Those first three Episodes were really good. Well written (by others, mind you.) It would be semi-joyous if he can see the saga (and himself) for what it is, and pull the last Episode of the prequels back to the quality entertainment that drew us all here in the first place.

stillakid
01-08-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Well, its happened....

Star Wars has surpassed Star Trek in the most geek obsessed fan base out there.

From a certain point of view, some people here need to get out once in awhile and think about something else besides Star Wars.

Then what are you doing here? :rolleyes:

Jaff
01-08-2003, 05:52 PM
The conversation i'm referring to about there is another is from ESB not return of the jedi. When luke flies away ben says that boy is our last hope. Yoda says there is another: I believe he is speaking about vader then. Yoda tells luke there is another skywalker in rotj. That is a seperate conversation. Ben's point of view is probably like: What are we going to do now that he's flying to bespin to die. It's all over. Yoda's response is more like. Gotta trust the living force Ben, besides we still have a chance with Anakin. Hence: There is another. After all SW is called a new hope. Anakin was the first hope for the jedi, thus in the end of the films he fulfills their hopes.

As to the second part about the jedi rotting from within you got my viewpoints right on the mark. It seems obvious and more realistic than most hypothosis i hear.

As far as the contradiction goes I noted that Qui-Gon does not try to manipulate the gungans in any way where their opinions are concerned. He simply says we need to warn the naboo - they say no - Qui gon says we need a transport and leaves. Obi-wan tries to persuade them. That was out of line with qui-gon's ways. It's not obi-wan's place to try to convince the gungans of anything, jedi are supposed to remain nuetral. This goes back to the above issue. Ben is mired by political manuevering. He tries to convince others of issues, rather than allowing them to make up their own minds. Never once does qui-gon try to change anyone's viewpoint in episode I. He understandably argues with the council, but those who are not jedi he does not really interfere with their viewpoints. From obi-wan's actions he would if he got the chance.

Finally about the movies themselves. I like you adore the classic trilogy best of all. It's moving in emotion, and demanding on attention. Episode I is more of a painting, but it's really two movies in one. One is the standard special effects, jar-jar cute adventure. The other side of TPM is insanely detailed, and wonderfully complicated. There is so much subtle detail in TPM that I really love it. The truth is my least favorite SW movie is Episode II. Don't get me wrong I love episode II, but it lacks the overall attention as the other films. As far as performance and character depth goes I will say TPM is the best. Quality wise I have to say ESB.

Jaff
01-08-2003, 05:57 PM
Keep it coming stillakid, I'm ready to debate another topic when your ready. Great talking with ya. Gotta get others in here too.

stillakid
01-08-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
The conversation i'm referring to about there is another is from ESB not return of the jedi. When luke flies away ben says that boy is our last hope. Yoda says there is another: I believe he is speaking about vader then. Yoda tells luke there is another skywalker in rotj. That is a seperate conversation. Ben's point of view is probably like: What are we going to do now that he's flying to bespin to die. It's all over. Yoda's response is more like. Gotta trust the living force Ben, besides we still have a chance with Anakin. Hence: There is another. After all SW is called a new hope. Anakin was the first hope for the jedi, thus in the end of the films he fulfills their hopes.

This is why I suggested that the entire argument one way or another rests on how you view Kenobi...as a manipulative liar or not. I also lump Yoda in there as we have no screen reason to suspect that he feels differently than Ben.

If you believe Ben is manipulating the facts and deliberately hiding the truth just to get Luke to come along with him, then it follows that neither Ben nor Yoda truly believe that Anakin is beyond the point of no return. If that's the case, then, yeah, maybe there's an outside chance that your theory of the "other" being Anakin is correct.

Because if you believe, like I do, that Ben is not a manipulative liar and did in fact tell Luke the truth as he really believed it to be, then there would be no "other" Skywalker to refer to except for Leia. In other words, if Yoda and Ben both really believe Anakin to be entirely lost to the Dark Side with no hope of returning (as Luke so adamently believes) then they would never think of referring to Vader as "another Skywalker." To the last two Jedi Knights, the only two Skywalker's left are Luke and Leia.

But even beyond that, Lucas just hasn't proven himself to be that subtle when setting up story points. It just isn't in him to have a character or two set up the possibility for "another Skywalker" in one movie, have another character say "the other Yoda spoke of is your twin sister," then not have it be Leia. Too many hoops to jump through to get to your conclusion. I really don't believe that that's what he had in mind or else some character, somewhere, would have come out and said it, "Yeah, Vader was the "other!""



Originally posted by Jaff

As far as the contradiction goes I noted that Qui-Gon does not try to manipulate the gungans in any way where their opinions are concerned. He simply says we need to warn the naboo - they say no - Qui gon says we need a transport and leaves. Obi-wan tries to persuade them. That was out of line with qui-gon's ways. It's not obi-wan's place to try to convince the gungans of anything, jedi are supposed to remain nuetral. This goes back to the above issue. Ben is mired by political manuevering. He tries to convince others of issues, rather than allowing them to make up their own minds. Never once does qui-gon try to change anyone's viewpoint in episode I. He understandably argues with the council, but those who are not jedi he does not really interfere with their viewpoints. From obi-wan's actions he would if he got the chance.
I think that the problem that I'm having with this situation you describe ultimately leads to the necessity to label Obi Wan as a manipulative liar. Since I don't believe that based on what we've seen onscreen, I'm having trouble backtracking what I know to be true about him and reconciling it with your theory. I need to contemplate this some more. Hmmm....


Originally posted by Jaff
Finally about the movies themselves. I like you adore the classic trilogy best of all. It's moving in emotion, and demanding on attention. Episode I is more of a painting, but it's really two movies in one. One is the standard special effects, jar-jar cute adventure. The other side of TPM is insanely detailed, and wonderfully complicated. There is so much subtle detail in TPM that I really love it. The truth is my least favorite SW movie is Episode II. Don't get me wrong I love episode II, but it lacks the overall attention as the other films. As far as performance and character depth goes I will say TPM is the best. Quality wise I have to say ESB.
TPM is insanely detailed? :confused: I thought it had the sloppiest writing this side of a Pauly Shore movie. George's lack of subtlety when he writes alone is only rivaled by any Joel Schumaker flick. Just read some of the early drafts of Star Wars for verification. They look surprisingly like TPM. Fortunately, with the help of Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan, the Original Trilogy still shines as an example of solid and consistent entertainment. In fact, I say we all start a collection to hire on Kasdan to write Episode III and save the Prequels from complete ridicule for future generations. :)

mini-rock
01-08-2003, 07:21 PM
I've noticed that alot of people seem to get those 2 scenes confused Jaff and that's why everyone assumes Leia is the other. I know it will be more clear for everyone after EPIII, and the AE are complete that Vader/Anakin was the "other". I love the OT, but it will be better when the AE's are done so it holds up a little better next to the Prequel's.:D

Jaff
01-08-2003, 08:16 PM
O.K. stillakid. The truth is that I don't see obi-wan as a liar, just opinionated. His way or the highway, as I have stated before, much like the jedi of old. Your last comments are really strong and I'm dwelling on them. However here's food for thought. It was admited that earlier on in production of ROTJ that Leia was intended to be Luke's sister only in the final draft of the film so they could have Luke turn to the dark side in the final climax of the film. Originally they did not know how to make luke mad enough to come out for hiding from darth. They kept putting off filming that scene in 1982 because they couldn't figure it out. Then it was suggested that leia was supposed to be lukes sister. They then redid the scene and it worked. Originally leia was never supposed to be luke's sister during ESB filming, and after completion. So if yoda means that the other is leia it's pretty convienient. However with this information I find it very hard to even imagine that it is leia, because i remember reading about this information in some magazine at that time. What we need to do is knock and Lucas' door and say: "What the hell does Yoda mean when ESB was filmed? Why did you put it in there?"

Lets think of a new topic stillakid, but lets keep it about speculation to episode III. Got any theries, and why?

Jedi Clint
01-08-2003, 08:24 PM
Ben told Luke only what he needed to hear at the time. Except last time I checked, when one person "murders" someone else, they stop their heart from beating indefinately. If Luke takes Ben's story literally, then he would assume the same thing. Would it have been Luke's natural repsonse to say, "Now by murder do you mean Vader was an alter ego of my father and he kinda killed him....but not really?" No. Without prior knowledge of Anakin's alter ego, he has no reason to assume Ben is refering to the same person by two different names. I don't think Ben is a "liar". He NEEDED Luke to trust him and come with him. The circumstances required him to interact with Luke as he did.

I have seen nothing to disprove that Ben was trying to prey on Luke's rebellious feelings toward Owen so he would accompany him to Alderaan.

Jaff
01-08-2003, 09:42 PM
right. Both Jedi Clint and Stillakid are right. I too believe that Ben was right in telling luke that his father was dead. In truth anakin was. After the fall of the republic ben was much more mature, and learned many lessons about being a jedi that he should have learned from qui-gon. In episode IV Ben is very much like Qui-Gon, relaxed, and trusting. It's ironic.

stillakid
01-09-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Jaff
However with this information I find it very hard to even imagine that it is leia, because i remember reading about this information in some magazine at that time. What we need to do is knock and Lucas' door and say: "What the hell does Yoda mean when ESB was filmed? Why did you put it in there?"


Fair enough. :)

I too have heard those "rumors" about Leia being a last minute alteration, but have yet to see the source of the hearsay.

But despite that, even if it were true, it's inconsequential. What we have to look at is what's on the screen. Just as I don't use Expanded Universe or novelization information to draw my conclusions, I also steer away from the rumor mill.

What we have onscreen is a situation where the two last remaining Jedi believe that one of their own is dead in spirit and their last remaining realistic hope refuses to kill the evil that took over. There is another who just happens to be related to both.

Convenient? Yes! Very! But I'm not debating that.

Does it work? Yes, quite well, in fact. The son won't kill the father...out of the woodwork (conveniently) springs a sister who holds the key for a second chance...that is until the evil ones learn of her existence. But she'd never be ready in time before they found her. So in effect, her use as a "second chance" was ruined when Luke learned of her.

But as you described, it was necessary for the secret to be revealed to Luke to provide the key that "unlocked" Anakin from his prison of evil. So maybe the writers did have different intentions for "the other" when ESB was written (maybe not), but in the end, what we actually witnessed worked so well, it's hard to believe that Lucas thought of it...(er, um...then again, it was probably Kasdan).



Originally posted by Jaff
Ben told Luke only what he needed to hear at the time. Except last time I checked, when one person "murders" someone else, they stop their heart from beating indefinately. If Luke takes Ben's story literally, then he would assume the same thing. Would it have been Luke's natural repsonse to say, "Now by murder do you mean Vader was an alter ego of my father and he kinda killed him....but not really?" No. Without prior knowledge of Anakin's alter ego, he has no reason to assume Ben is refering to the same person by two different names. I don't think Ben is a "liar". He NEEDED Luke to trust him and come with him. The circumstances required him to interact with Luke as he did.
Without a doubt, Old Ben wasn't entirely "clear" when describing what happened to Anakin and the Emperor and then what went down between Anakin and Younger Kenobi. But so many people have tried to equate the phrase "a certain point of view" to be synonomous with "a lie." It just isn't the case at all.



Funny thing, I just got my new INSIDER yesterday, and two letters to the editor are in there that could have been written by me (but weren't). One was about this very topic and the guy was using arguments that are damn near verbatim that I've been writing here. Weird, huh? The other had to do with Qui Gon and why he's the one training Obi and not Yoda. Of course, they failed in answering both letters as they conveniently left out pertinent information in order to prop up the false notion that the two trilogies have consistent continuity. But, I suppose the lesson to be learned from all this is that as long as you want something to be true, it can be...from a certain point of view. ;)

Jaff
01-09-2003, 11:28 AM
Okay back to the reason this thread was started. I would like to hear some opinions about your thoughts where episode III is going out of curiosity. When I started this thread it quickly turned into a "Is obi-wan a liar" or not topic through no fault of anyone, it just went on a tangent. So now back to the main issue. I believe that Anakin will be on Tatooine at the beginning of episode III with padme and owen. He will not be a part of the jedi order, and padme will be out of politics. Obi-Wan will show up and take him away from his family after asking him to come and help him during the clone wars. I assume this because Ben says about owen's remarks: "He thought he (anakin) should have stayed here (tatooine) and not gotten involved." Unless you think ben is a constant liar you have to take this conversation at face value. Obviously Anakin and Owen will have this conversation in episode III. This conversation would not come up if Anakin is already a part of the jedi order. Any viewpoints on this theory.

stillakid
01-09-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
Okay back to the reason this thread was started. I would like to hear some opinions about your thoughts where episode III is going out of curiosity. When I started this thread it quickly turned into a "Is obi-wan a liar" or not topic through no fault of anyone, it just went on a tangent.
As you notice, I don't mince words. :D That tangent was my fault entirely. ;)


Originally posted by Jaff

So now back to the main issue. I believe that Anakin will be on Tatooine at the beginning of episode III with padme and owen. He will not be a part of the jedi order, and padme will be out of politics. Obi-Wan will show up and take him away from his family after asking him to come and help him during the clone wars. I assume this because Ben says about owen's remarks: "He thought he (anakin) should have stayed here (tatooine) and not gotten involved." Unless you think ben is a constant liar you have to take this conversation at face value. Obviously Anakin and Owen will have this conversation in episode III. This conversation would not come up if Anakin is already a part of the jedi order. Any viewpoints on this theory.
My viewpoint: It fits well enough with the established story points and dialogue in the OT, but not very well with Ep's I and II.

There is absolutely no reason why Anakin and Padme would ever really want to return to Tatooine. Anakin hates sand and Padme's got this really nice planet with trees and water and stuff to go back to. They certainly weren't at the Lars Estate long enough to establish any kind of meaningful relationship and what's worse, they took off without saying goodbye...and they took the guy's protocol droid without even asking. What, praytell, would make Lars even want those rude people around him?

I know, based on the OT, that Anakin should have some kind of meaningful relationship with Owen at some point, but the PT has dismally failed to set up a plausible reason for it.

Anakin may or may not be banished from the Jedi as the film opens and Padme may or may not be a Senator. I'll wager that his fall from the order will be an integral part of the plot, so we won't join it post-banishment.

But as far as getting Anakin back to Tatooine with Owen, I don't know. Your question has me stumped.

Jedi Clint
01-09-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Ben told Luke only what he needed to hear at the time. Except last time I checked, when one person "murders" someone else, they stop their heart from beating indefinately. If Luke takes Ben's story literally, then he would assume the same thing. Would it have been Luke's natural repsonse to say, "Now by murder do you mean Vader was an alter ego of my father and he kinda killed him....but not really?" No. Without prior knowledge of Anakin's alter ego, he has no reason to assume Ben is refering to the same person by two different names. I don't think Ben is a "liar". He NEEDED Luke to trust him and come with him. The circumstances required him to interact with Luke as he did.

I have seen nothing to disprove that Ben was trying to prey on Luke's rebellious feelings toward Owen so he would accompany him to Alderaan.

Watch who you're quoting there Stilla ;) You've got Jaff quoted with my statements.



Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Anakin's decent into darkness increases in pace dramatically after his former friend, master, and father figure puts him in a walking iron lung. Palpatine holds the only key the mutilated and broken Skywalker has to any chance of revenge against Kenobi as well as access to power greater than any he has possessed before.

Anakin Skywalker will NOT sit out the Clone Wars. They started at the end of AOTC, and they will end at the beginning of E3.

Anakin, "We could keep it a secret."
Padme, "We'd be living a lie. I couldn't do that. Could you Anakin?"
Anakin, "No. You're right. It would destroy us."

Keeping their secret will destroy their relationship and their lives. Padme can't be seen pregnant in the political arena without someone finding out who the father is (which would put an end to her career whether she wanted it to or not). It is at that point that she will exit politics even though a great turning point in the Republic is coming.

Anakin will fight for his Chancellor and the Republic during the clone wars. And when he has time, he will see his wife. She will never have the opportunity to tell him that she is pregnant. He won't return to her for many months before the battle that ends the wars.

The events that lead Obi Wan to duel with Anakin will be directly related to Palpatine's manipulation on a galactic level and who decides what side of the line they want to be on. Yoda, Obi Wan, the rest of the Jedi, Bail Organa, Padme and a few others will choose to rebel against Palpatine as they know him for what he really is, but not Anakin.

Obi Wan's discussion with Luke in ANH was laced with motivational comments by the elder Jedi. He needed Luke to go with him and leave the homestead behind. He worked on Luke's rebellious feelings toward his Uncle's expectations in order to accomplish this goal.

I think this notion of Anakin living on the dust ball instead of fighting in the clone wars has sprung forth from Obi Wan's comments, "He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

Anakin got involved in the Clone Wars in E2. I doubt Owen's ideals and Anakin's were similar before, during, or after their meeting. Obi Wan and Owen have plenty of time to discuss the events that lead up to Owen and Beru caring for Luke between E3 and ANH. Obi Wan doesn't have to be lying about anything. In fact:

LUKE: No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a
spice freighter.

BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your
father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten
involved.

He is telling Luke the truth. The extraneous info he includes in in his response is a further play upon Luke's rebellious feelings regarding Owen's expectations. Neither Statement was a lie. Owen could feel that Anakin would have been better off if he hadn't left after they burried Shmi, and I'd say that the two didn't share many ideals to begin with.

BEN: I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

I am pretty sure Anakin will never have the chance to make a friendly suggestion to Obi Wan regarding his desire for his son to receive his saber. It is entirely possible that Owen didn't want Luke to have the saber due to his fear that the child he raised would end up following Obi Wan rather than helping him on the farm.

I bet Kenobi gets the Saber from Anakin's severed limb after their duel. How could he tell Luke that? There would be no way I would follow someone who at the very least chopped off my Dad's arm. Ben may have guessed that Anakin would have wanted his son to have his lightsaber, but I seriously doubt he was asked to give it to him. Am I calling Kenobi a liar. No. Like I said before, his goal was to take Luke with him to Alderaan and start training him as a Jedi.

stillakid
01-09-2003, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Watch who you're quoting there Stilla ;) You've got Jaff quoted with my statements.



WHoops! Sorry 'bout that. The quoting system doesn't work so well when I want to include two different posts, so I wind up doing it by hand. User error.:stupid:

Jaff
01-09-2003, 07:49 PM
Well lets all go after Owens frame of mind then. I too can't stand the expanded universe stuff because most of it is so desperately written. Anyone read truce at bakura!!!!! Another example of poor writting is Boba Fett climbing out of the sarlacc pitt naked and being rescued by Dengar so he could be the best man at his wedding. What an embarrassing moment for writting and Star Wars.
Anyways Owen obviosly has a problem with Ben. I do hold true to the movie novelizations, and one thing in the novel that is clear is that Owen is very close to Shmi. She talked with Owen very much about her son and how she missed him. So before Owen meets Anakin he probably thinks that the Jedi keep him from his mother. He returns to tatooine too late. He goes to find her, and then he leaves as stillakid describes - taking his droids without even a goodbye (nice observation there). Whether or not Anakin returns or not is up in the air. I think Anakin will because it will bring him closer to his mother in a sense. He has allot of frustration, and he wants to hide out. Tatooine would be a perfect spot for isolation for both Anakin and Padme. But like stillakid says theres no reason for them to come back.
Anyways Ben returns with a baby and says "take care of him will ya." Owen will take luke, but probably thinks that ben is part of the causes of pain on the lars homestead. To him the jedi took shmi's son away from her. She feels empty because of his absense, now they were part (by owen's tainted assumption) the cause for it's fathers death. So Owen will shut the doors to Ben. "That was just a crazy old man!" He says. Even luke calls ben "a strange old hermit". If adventurous luke ever heard anything about the personality of Ben he would have gone running for him for stories, because in EpIV he is really restless and bored. So Owen will either take the baby and send Ben packing without a single word, or he will take the baby and tell Ben what he thinks about him and the jedi fools he hung around with. As you all saw in Ep IV Owen is rigid in his manors and perceptions, part and parcel to his harsh tatooine upbringing. Most likely that was why Owen was so protective of Luke interacting with Ben. He probably thought that Luke would in fact follow that old fool on some jedi crusade. And to Owen the jedi are nothing but trouble. Owen doesn't seem the talkative type, so I doubt that he shares any of his feelings to ben. He probably just kicks him out after he takes baby luke. So hopefully the conversation occurs between Anakin and Owen. It would be really poignant if Owen tries to talk Anakin into remembering his mother and leaving not going anywhere with ben. Then Owen's mistrust of Ben would be that much more profound!!! Thoughts?

stillakid
01-09-2003, 09:50 PM
But Obi Wan doesn't even know that the Lars Estate exists. For that matter, the only time he's been on the planet, he was holed up on the Queen's starship twiddling his thumbs. What on earth would compel him to go to Tatooine, seek out the Lars homestead somehow, then leave a child with people he's never met? There is 0 (zero) setup for any of this.

The only way this can work is if some PLAUSIBLE reason for Anakin to return to Tatooine exists, then Obi goes there to find him AND he stays for some reasonable amount of time to, at the very least, realize that this would later be a good hiding place for the Luke baby.

In examining the previous rumors about these relationships, Obi and Owen were brothers. Now THAT would have given Obi a plausible reason for hiding Baby Luke there. But at this point, they don't even know that they each exist. It would have been a humongous convenience that Anakin also came from the same planet, but again, it's highly doubtful that this was the original game plan when the OT was written. My own sense is that as George has borrowed from the Frank Herbert series DUNE a lot, he thought he'd try to be clever and have the desert planet sort of be the center of it all.

Anybody have any ideas on how he could reasonably write himself out of this corner?

What makes Anakin go back to Tatooine?
What makes Obi Wan even consider leaving Baby Luke with a guy he's never met?

Jaff
01-09-2003, 11:05 PM
My theory is: Anakin cannot recover from the incident of his mother's death. He feels guilt for ever leaving her and shares this with his new wife. Since the jedi are partially responsible for the abandonment of his mother he leaves the order while the clone wars are raging. After all Anakin only cares for padme now: He didn't care about getting expelled in Episode II. For a short while Anakin and Padme stay on Naboo, but Anakin is still racked with guilt, so they go to Tatooine to be close to whatever remnant is left of Anakin's mother, and his fall from grace. While there they get to know the Lars and work on their fragile relationship. Then along comes obi-wan. Help us it's the final battle and the last request we will ever have of you. Anakin leaves his pregnant wife despite arguments made by Owen. Anakin leaves to fight in the wars. Palpatine notices anakin's disdain for his responsibilites and uses anakins unhealthy relationship towards the jedi in his favor. "I'm sorry they treat you such. Some day things will be different. They don't care nothing about anybody except their own desires... etc." So palpy being the true person he is hires someone to deal with padme to turn anakin's feelings to the dark side. The jedi get wind of this, and send ben to find her and bring her to safety. He gets her in time, but palpy tells anakin that Dooku or the Jedi have killed her. Anakin swears vengance and goes on the warpath with Palpy's help. Ben keeps padme hidden and goes to face off with Anakin to talk some sense in him while jedi are dying left and right. Anakin doesn't listen. They fight. Obi wins and gets his light saber some how. Anakin is seriously wounded, but palpy comes to Anakin's rescue, giving him a suit to survive in. Together they hunt down the last of the jedi rightously (Thus anakin's loyalty to the emperor). But 1st on palpys list to kill is padme, because if Anakin knew they were still alive they would threaten the loyalty anakin gives to palpy because the truth would be revealed. Yoda is smuggled to dagobah, padme gives birth to twins. Ben tells padme what happened, and she is stunned beyond words. He pleads with her to seperate the twins. He is our only hope. I will care for him, I beg you. She does the right thing. Vader and his emperor are in control of everything. Ben takes Luke to Tatooine knowing that Owen cared for the well being of both Padme and Anakin. Most of all it would be the last place Vader would want to go because it would remind him of his mother and his presumed dead wife. Ben arrives at owen and he accepts luke eagerly, but damns ben to be a part of Lukes upbringing. After all in owen's views Ben is the cause of all of it.

That is exactly what I think episode III will be like. It seems obvious and simple, but there is allot of assumption in there. Owen being Ben's brother is bogus expanded universe stuff. I never trust it, just the movies or the movie novels.

What do you think stillakid

mini-rock
01-09-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
BEN: I have something here for you. Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did.

There is already a scene to tie in with what Obi-Wan said. What does 3PO say? "He says he has a message from an Obi-Wan Kenobi." That's all Owen heard and it'd be easy for him to think the wrong thing.

Jedi Clint
01-09-2003, 11:40 PM
Interesting thought mini-rock. Someone named Obi Wan comes calling and Anakin runs off. Then Kenobi comes back later with an orphan.


Originally posted by stillakid
But Obi Wan doesn't even know that the Lars Estate exists. For that matter, the only time he's been on the planet, he was holed up on the Queen's starship twiddling his thumbs. What on earth would compel him to go to Tatooine, seek out the Lars homestead somehow, then leave a child with people he's never met? There is 0 (zero) setup for any of this.

The only way this can work is if some PLAUSIBLE reason for Anakin to return to Tatooine exists, then Obi goes there to find him AND he stays for some reasonable amount of time to, at the very least, realize that this would later be a good hiding place for the Luke baby.


It appears you have eliminated any possible involvement Padme could have in Luke's placement. She was with Anakin when he returned to the terrible fate of his mother in AOTC, and she spent ample time with the Lars family to know they were decent caring people. She could ask Obi Wan to take Luke there.

Jaff
01-10-2003, 05:31 AM
mini-rock, jedi clint - How about sharing your theories about what's going to happen in episode III.

stillakid
01-10-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
but Anakin is still racked with guilt, so they go to Tatooine to be close to whatever remnant is left of Anakin's mother,

When it comes down to it, any of our theories about just how Ep III will play out are plausible...as long as they can wiggle that tight space that gets us from Ep II to Ep IV information plausibly.

The guilt thing above seems to me to be one of those "we'll do it quickly and maybe they won't notice" kind of reasons just to get a character in a specific place just because he has to be there. Personally I have a real problem with characters "deciding" to do something in a story. A story, any story, is far more interesting when a character is compelled to have to do something especially when the writer can work in the threat of personal suffering. There's nothing left of his mother back on Tatooine, beyond a grave. We already know that Anakin isn't rational, but him returning over guilt to do (something about it? :confused: ) is just a little to much of a stretch for me. (Or maybe he's taking his "I won't fail you again line" from AOTC seriously and he's going to protect her grave from would-be thieves :rolleyes: )

The primary problem is that from ANH, we get the sense that Owen is very familiar with Anakin and exactly what happened to him. While this doesn't necessarily require Anakin to actually be on Tatooine ever again, it would sure help. But seeing that there is no really good reason for the kid to return and no good reason for the Lar's family to accept him under their roof, it just doesn't seem very plausible. I'm not saying that George won't do it, but it won't be very plausible. The alternative is that Owen could learn about Anakin from someone else, like Obi Wan. It's still weak, but it makes a little more sense if we're talking about creating some kind of continuity between the two trilogies.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
It appears you have eliminated any possible involvement Padme could have in Luke's placement. She was with Anakin when he returned to the terrible fate of his mother in AOTC, and she spent ample time with the Lars family to know they were decent caring people. She could ask Obi Wan to take Luke there.
True. I hadn't really thought of that. But then again, why would she choose that place? If the point is to hide the children, why send one of them someplace that Anakin is familiar with? I think that George got himself into trouble by having Anakin come from Tatooine in the first place. It sets up all kinds of trouble when trying to justify 1) Owen's relationship with Obi Wan, and 2) why Luke is placed there. One might be tempted to suggest that Padme chose the Lars Estate because it's kind of like family. Baby Luke could grow up hearing about his grandmother and mother and hear white lies from Owen about his father. But Luke doesn't seem to have any idea about any of his family, outside of the stories of his father. So, if the Lars clan winds up not telling him anything anyway, then what's the point in him being there?

The Overlord Returns
01-10-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


True. I hadn't really thought of that. But then again, why would she choose that place? If the point is to hide the children, why send one of them someplace that Anakin is familiar with

I think your answer is right there. Hide The child in the one place even Darth Vader might fear to tread?

Think about it, he has already talked about how much he hates the place. Now he has the added pain of his mothers death. Anakin himself may never want to go back there, let alone Vader.

So, Padme tells Kenobi about the Lars homestead, and how they are caring people. Obi Wan takes them there. Tells Owen all about what has happened, and how the child must be protected in order to save the galaxy in years to come. Of course, Owen decides then to disregard that, thinking that, had Anakin not "gotten involved" in the first place, by going after obi wan on geonosis...none of this would have happened. He denies telling luke anything that might make him want to go off like his father did, and bars Obi Wan from coming to the homestead.

I've always found it odd that Vader, the man who personally leads the attack on hoth, gets into his own fighter to defend the death star, does NOT personally go down to search for the droids. Fear, perhaps?

Jedi Clint
01-10-2003, 02:21 PM
I think the goal is to raise Luke to be humble, honest, and hard working. Beyond that, Anakin experienced an incredible amount of pain on Tattooine. He obviously didn't give a hoot about the Lars family. He wouldn't have returned to the dust ball in AOTC if it weren't for the intense feelings he had of his mother being in pain. He speaks of his distaste for the atmosphere of Tattooine on Naboo with Padme. He knelt by his mother's grave and said goodbye. He is done with that planet and Padme knows it.

I guess we will see how much trouble Lucas finds himself in regarding Anakin's origins now involving the desert planet. I had to reevaluate a few conclusions I had come to about the events between TPM and AHN when I found out Owen wasn't Kenobi's brother. There is now a better reason for Luke to refer to Owen and Beru as his Aunt and Uncle, but the obvious reason for Obi Wan to leave Luke in their care has been removed. I think it will still work well if it is Padme's decision to have Luke raised by Owen and Beru. In the past, we had no reason to believe that Luke's mom even knew the Lars family. Now that she is familiar with them, it gives her some reason to trust them with the care of her son.

mini-rock
01-10-2003, 02:26 PM
Exactly Overlord Returns. I think we have already seen the last time Anakin sets foot on Tatooine.

Jedi Clint
01-10-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
mini-rock, jedi clint - How about sharing your theories about what's going to happen in episode III.

I posted a few in this thread Jaff, but I will work on a few more and post them for you.

stillakid
01-10-2003, 03:05 PM
Yep. My own conjecture is that Tatooine won't even come up until the very end when Lucas does the gratuitous and unnecessary scene of Obi taking Baby Luke to the homestead. But god help us, I hope not.



What I hope to see is this:

Anakin and Padme will be on Naboo when Anakin gets a communique from Palpatine. It seems that Dooku is trying to assassinate Palpatine (or so Palpatine says). Palpatine needs Anakin to personally hunt down Dooku and stop him. Little does Anakin know that Palpatine has set up Dooku and simply doesn't need him anymore and this will be Anakin's first "official" duty as Palpatine's patsy.

Just before leaving on this dangerous mission, he and Padme make love one final time, which, unknown to Anakin until the time between ANH and ESB, results in children (of course he doesn't know about the sister until Episode VI).

Anakin heads off into the galaxy to exact REVENGE (a Jedi would never do that...this is his first real step to becoming a Sith) on Dooku.

Obi Wan realizes only too late what's happening when he tries to contact Anakin on Naboo. Padme tells him about the message and Obi Wan's suspicions about Palpatine grow. Obi goes to Yoda with this information. The Jedi Council realizes what Palpatine is up to and appears in the Senate to call him out. Fresh from victories against the rebellious Separatists (Trade Federation, Banking, etc), it's easy for Palpatine to turn the tables back on the Jedi. He accuses them of trying to organize a coup within the sacred walls of the Senate itself. The groundswell against the Jedi grows beyond control. The Jedi attempt to flee, but for most, it is too late. The Clone Army targets the Jedi Temple and destroys it. A few key Jedi (Obi, Yoda, Mace and a some others) escape, but are being hunted.

Obi Wan, again attempts to find Anakin. He contacts Padme on Naboo. She implores Obi Wan to find him and save him from potential death at the hands of Dooku. "It was his arm last time. I fear for what could happen this time." She tells Obi Wan that she's pregnant and she needs her Ani back.

Obi Wan somehow manages to find Anakin, but it is too late. Dooku is dead. To make matters worse, Obi Wan tells Anakin that Palpatine is a Sith Lord and has already destroyed the Jedi Temple. Anakin is unwillingly to believe him, as Palpatine is the first one who has seen and used Anakin to his full potential. Just another example of Obi Wan trying to hold him back. Anakin attacks, thus beginning the infamous fight. Anakin is mortally wounded. With fury still in his eyes, Anakin's eyes close. Obi Wan is stunned by the turn of events. Even with that, his Jedi abilities work to put the pieces together. He realizes the potential that Anakin's child holds. He takes Anakin's lightsaber from his "dead" hand to later give to the baby.

With the Jedi scattering to the winds, the Republic all but dead, and the Senate in shambles, Palpatine announces a state of emergency and declares himself Emperor.

Meanwhile, a battered Obi Wan returns to Naboo, where he finds Yoda already there. He passes by a stately entourage headed by Senator Bail Organa. They carry a mysterious "package" and hurry away. Obi Wan continues into the Palace to greet Yoda and Padme. The baby is in danger, Yoda tells Obi. He must be hidden.

They watch as the Organa starships disappear into the fiery red twilight sky.

THE END

Jedi Clint
01-10-2003, 03:18 PM
In General this is the framework I see for the movie at this point:

After AOTC:

The Senate begins to distrust the Jedi and their ability to protect the Republic. The Jedi launch a lengthy investigation into the Senate. The Clone Wars ravage the worlds of the Old Republic. A military infrastucture is created to assist/replace the Jedi during the wars. Periodically there are still assassination attempts on Padme.

E3

Beginning:

Anakin leads the Republic forces into Dooku's territory and finishes him off in the last battle of the Clone wars. Padme contacts Kenobi (perhaps on Alderaan) and expresses concern for Anakin. He hasn't returned home in several months. She shares a secret in confidence with Kenobi that she hasn't shared with anyone. She is pregnant.

Middle:

Obi Wan seeks out Anakin to bring him back to his senses. The Separatists (sans leader) negotiate a treaty with Palpatine expressing loyalty only to him and not the Republic. He declares himself Emporer. Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi Wan Kenobi recognize Palpatine's true intentions. Obi Wan confronts Anakin. He seems to be consumed by aggression and anger. Palpatine has unleashed his power by building his self confidence with praise for his military prowess. Obi Wan tries to convince Anakin that he is headed down the dark path, that he must sever his relationship with Palpatine and return home. The discussion turns to violence and ends in Anakin's appearant demise.

End:

The Emperor sends his new apprentice, Darth Vader, to destroy the remaining Jedi. The children are born and seperated. The parting sequence has Obi Wan delivering Luke to the Lars family.

There are a few parts I'm still working on. There's an attempt for you though.

Jaff
01-10-2003, 10:21 PM
Okay I don't know how to quote you guys but I'll follow up so bear with me. First I am really intrigued by jediclint's suggestion that padme is the one who sends Anakin to Owen. That too would be very plausible. I still think lucas has already has a vision about Anakin's/Tatooine connection and my instincts say that he will return there somehow. Again - lucas refers to his movies as poetry stanzas - they all have a rythm. Thus I assume Anakin must return to keep the stanza going. But the Padme idea is very fresh and intelligent. My opinion on this has swayed a bit.
The overlord returns and mini-rock has suggested that Anakin won't return because there is nothing there, and there ware way too many demons there for him to contend with. Since my last paragraph about padme states my opinion is changing let me at least suggest my original hypothosis why he would return. Note that this is an afterthought - you guys have already swayed my opinion on this matter, debate it further if you need though. With most popular and troubled people once they are out of the limelight, or done with interaction they try very hard to obtain isolation. Anakin is deffinately both. On Naboo everyone would notice Padme and privacy for both of them would be next to impossible. On tatooine it would be the opposite. There is noone there. Isolation would be obtained and anakin could lick his wounds in peace.
Stillakid - I really like where your synopsis is going about the movie. Being called by Palpy would be more reasonable to bring ani back because he trusts palpy, not obi-wan. Before they leave ani and padme get it on again - kinky - Lucas' R rated version?:crazed: However I do believe that Anakin will know she will be pregnant. Gut feeling. The dooku posting and the Palpy right hand is much better than my theory. However Anakin will hunt down and kill jedi out of hate. Obviously you don't kill those you dreamed of when you were young with ease. Anakin's loyalty is not only to palpy. It is also with Padme. If he kills jedi, his life with padme is over, and he would know it. So he has to think she is dead in order to conciously walk away from that life. Reconditioning that into your synopsis might solidify its structure.
jediclint - I really like your first part about the assassination attempts against padme, because that too would suggest a reason for Ani to fight for her protection. However if assassination attempts were happening to her Ani would be at her side because of his passion for her. His loyalty to padme would supercede Palpy at this time. He betrayed his order for her. Building the arrogance of Ani by palpatine is a moment I am savoring to see in the movie. We all know that will be in there. I hate to admit this guys and/or gals, but Palpy has always been my favorite character in every movie. I know it's a guilty pleasure!

stillakid
01-10-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
Okay I don't know how to quote you guys but I'll follow up so bear with me.
Look for the little button that says "quote" on it at the bottom of someone's post. Click it and that persons entire post will be "quoted" in your reply. To break that quote into pieces, you either need to do the [ B ] stuff by hand or open another browser window to get further quotes formatted by the program. Cut and paste those into the original reply window that you're working on.


Originally posted by Jaff
Anakin's loyalty is not only to palpy. It is also with Padme. If he kills jedi, his life with padme is over, and he would know it. So he has to think she is dead in order to conciously walk away from that life. Reconditioning that into your synopsis might solidify its structure.

Actually, I left my Padme theory out of this last one for some reason. I suspect that Anakin may walk in on Obi Wan while he's comforting Padme. He believes that she's cheating on him and that Obi Wan has betrayed their friendship. That's also another possible reason for the eventual fight. And it does away with his loyalty for her. As with our own world, typically women are at the center of all problems between friends. ;)

Jedi Clint
01-10-2003, 11:49 PM
I don't blame ya for diggin Palps Jaff. He is my favorite villan. :)

Anakin wanted to disobey Obi Wan and jump into the sands below in order to save her, but he didn't. I think Anakin will juggle visits with his wife and his obligations to his Chancellor. It starts out easy. He goes away for a week on a mission and visits Padme when he returns. Palpatine tells him what a good job he's done, that he is proud of him, and how valuable he is to the Republic. Palpatine starts to throw a little poison in with the praise. Good job. If it weren't for _________ I could get ________ accomplished. Anakin thrives on recognition. It is a character flaw he has. He drags Padme to his room to see Threepio. He brags about his pod-racing ability. He is ticked because Obi Wan doesn't gush about how great he is. Granted he has amazing potential and he has some skill to match. Little by little the visits home are a lot less "Oh baby I missed you." and more "Hi honey. Got a meeting with the Chancellor. Promise I will be back soon." then he just has time to call, or worse he forgets. He will expect her to understand, and she will probably understand for the most part. But when she sees what that lifestyle is doing to him and expresses concern, there will be a spat or two. The next thing you know she hasn't spoken with him for months. The wars are really raging, but still why wouldn't he at least call? She better call someone who knows him. Someone he trusts. Someone she can trust. She has to tell someone.

The main reason I included the bit about continued assassination attempts, was because it is an easy set up for a point later in the movie where an assassin acutally succeeds (not really, but to Anakin and Palpatine they nailed her).

After thought:

If Padme left Coruscant for some reason (failed to get re-elected, quit because she got pregnant, was scheduled to be back on Naboo when Anakin returned from a mission) then that would make their relationship much more difficult. They could simply miss each other due to other obligations. They could just see each other when it worked out that they were both on Coruscant at the same time. They just happen to miss each other for 4 or 5 months before E3 opens.

Another set of possibilities.

Jaff
01-11-2003, 10:14 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi Clint
[B]I don't blame ya for diggin Palps Jaff. He is my favorite villan. :)

Anakin thrives on recognition. It is a character flaw he has. He drags Padme to his room to see Threepio. He brags about his pod-racing ability. He is ticked because Obi Wan doesn't gush about how great he is.

I really like this reasoning. It's very strong. I never thought of that.

Thanks for the quote infor there still.

stillakid
01-11-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Jaff
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jedi Clint
[B]I don't blame ya for diggin Palps Jaff. He is my favorite villan. :)

Anakin thrives on recognition. It is a character flaw he has. He drags Padme to his room to see Threepio. He brags about his pod-racing ability. He is ticked because Obi Wan doesn't gush about how great he is.

I really like this reasoning. It's very strong. I never thought of that.

Thanks for the quote infor there still.

Sure, but you need to "close" the quotes to make it all come together.

When you're in a reply window, go to the top of it, find the "Quote" button up there, click it, type in a message, then you'll see the formatting as it needs to be. :)

I too think that Anakin's basic problem is one of lack of self-esteem. It's really the common thread behind all meglomaniacs when it comes down to it. But usually it manifests itself also with a lack of luck with hot babes. But Ani somehow manages to get Padme into the sack, which should have boosted his self image up a few notches. But it's his professional life that just gets him down. He can't shake that desire for recognition which drives him to the extreme of "I'll show you just how good I am." What a wacko. :crazed: A violent, dangerous wacko, but a wack-job nonetheless.

Jaff
01-12-2003, 07:47 AM
I heard that billy crystal has signed on for Episoe III 1/2: Analyze Darth. :crazed:

2-1B
06-21-2009, 09:59 PM
My own conjecture is that Tatooine won't even come up until the very end when Lucas does the gratuitous and unnecessary scene of Obi taking Baby Luke to the homestead.

Called it ! lol

DarthQuack
06-21-2009, 10:06 PM
Hit the nail right on the head!

Rocketboy
06-22-2009, 12:29 AM
As if it weren't totally obvious enough.

There is also the fact that they filmed a short scene at the homestead for Episode III during Episode II so they wouldn't have to come all the way back for a couple of shots.

Bel-Cam Jos
06-22-2009, 10:47 AM
Hit the nail right on the head!Actually, quite a bit of that was pretty close to right on.

So, are there any other "facts" left to "debate?" Does that mean we're denying their label as "factual?" Therefore, I submit:

- Episode III, was really "Episode ill," with the "i" captialized.
- Episode III, was really "Episode Lil," with the "i" captialized and the first "L" lower case.
- When Palpatine speaks to Mace upon returning from Anakin/Obi-Wan rescuing and landing, the Lucas kids characters have unobstructed facial views towards the camera. This is purely coincidental.
- There was a cut scene where the Tantive IV pilots hang up a little Playboy poster in the cockpit.
- If you choose the French subtitles option during the Mace vs. Palpatine death scene, several lines from Pulp Fiction come up when Mace speaks ("Royale with Cheese..." "... upon thee with great anger..." "... say 'what' one more time..." etc.)
- The image of Qui-Gon Jinn was supposed to be used on the ship when Yoda tells Obi-Wan he has training, but Q-G's mustache would never stay in the right place.

Let the debating begin? :rolleyes: