PDA

View Full Version : Shuttle Columbia



InsaneJediGirl
02-01-2003, 10:00 AM
Very sad day,I feel for the families.:(

Anyone in Texas see anything?I've heard some reports on CNN,but I'd like to know in detail.Funny that it happened so close to the Challenger explosion(About a week).

Rogue II
02-01-2003, 10:09 AM
I saw that. Very sad indeed.

I still remember exactly where I was when I heard about the Challanger disaster.

Hasbro'sBountyHunter
02-01-2003, 10:11 AM
Indeed a moment of silence. :zzz:

2-1B
02-01-2003, 10:46 AM
:cry: :cry: :cry:

JediCole
02-01-2003, 10:53 AM
I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas. I was at home and on the computer at about 8 AM this morning when I heard a rather strange boom-like sound and had the sensation that the house shook (only sllightly). I did notice that the blinds on the living room window seemed to be shaking.

It was not a loud boom (we have had the transformer on the phone pole out back blow out once and THAT was a loud boom), but enough to seem quite unusual. I was curious enough since there seemed to be some kind of impact to take a look around outside. I found our largest cat near the porch looking quite guilty so I assumed that he had been chasing one of the other cats and had crashed into the front door.

Later in the morning I turned on the television. I rarely watch TV in the morning on the weekends. I don't know what inspired me to do as much. Whichever chanel I selected was showing paid advertizing (Ron Popiel and his little rotisserie), so I flipped a few more channels and saw the images that will undoubtedly play out on every major station all weekend. Needless to say I was quite shocked and saddened.

To add further to the tragedy, one of the local stations was dwelling far too much on the presence of an Israili astronaut on the mission and some speculation was voiced that there could be a connection. Though the speculations were kept to a minimum, they could not seem to get off of that subject, undoubtedly fueling further speculation on the part of much of their viewing audience. It was only much later in the morning that I found a station that took the time to discover that the shuttle reportedly suffered some exterior damage upon its launch 16 days earlier. That is as likely (or more likely) a contributing factor than the terrorist speculations fronted by the yellow journalists on the other station. The real shame is that real people were killed in this accident. Wives and husbands, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. Real living people. And the newspeople spent more time speculating on foul play than expressing sympathy for the loss of lives and the impact on the astronauts' familes.

Adam
02-01-2003, 11:01 AM
My house shook as well Cole. It sounded as if someone has slammed a door somewhere in the house really hard. This is really depressing. :(

darthvyn
02-01-2003, 11:05 AM
:cry:

mabudonicus
02-01-2003, 11:20 AM
Crazy..... I saw the title of this thred and just naturally assumed that it was a challenger reference...

Gotta love yellow journalism, eh JC?? Vultures.

My condolences to all.... nothing else to say.

sith_killer_99
02-01-2003, 11:28 AM
The shuttle was traveling at 6 times the speed of sound at an elevation of 200,000. Fox news is saying that it was most liklely an accident and I tend to agree.

My condolences to the families and friends.

mini-rock
02-01-2003, 11:37 AM
I had been watching NBC for about an hour, and they had made more than enough references to the Israli astronaut (particularly the female host), and an act of possible terrorism that I had to change the channel. Sickning.

This is truely sad, so much that I cannot describe. My heart and prayers go out to the families of these truly heroic human beings.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
02-01-2003, 11:58 AM
Yeah, i'm getting sick and tired of every time something happens, it's gotta be "Terrorism." Curse Bush for filling up the mindless with ideas that every time something happens it's terrorism. :frus:

My sympathy to all the families and friends. A very sad day, it is. :zzz:

DarthBrandon
02-01-2003, 12:33 PM
My condolences to the families and friends.:(

sith_killer_99
02-01-2003, 01:01 PM
Yeah, i'm getting sick and tired of every time something happens, it's gotta be "Terrorism." Curse Bush for filling up the mindless with ideas that every time something happens it's terrorism.

Um no, that would be the "media" or "yellow journalists" as mentioned earlier.

Fox news announced hours ago that the White House has already issued a statement that they (GW and the gang) do not have any reason to believe that this was an act of terroism.

:p

Dark Knight
02-01-2003, 01:21 PM
:cry:

Fulit
02-01-2003, 01:55 PM
I just read that it was supposedly out of range for a surface-to-air missle, so a terrorist would've had to be a genius to do this.

I also just read that debris was already for sale on Ebay. I went to the link, but it said it had been removed. Can you imagine? 2 hours after the fact and they're already selling sick souvenirs. Only in America.

kool-aid killer
02-01-2003, 02:09 PM
If somebody is selling it on ebay i hope they got a piece that is radioactive and .................................well you know what i mean.

Pendo
02-01-2003, 02:35 PM
:zzz:

Very sad news! My thoughts go out to their friends and families!

:cry:

PENDO!

187-Maul
02-01-2003, 03:07 PM
My thoughts also go out to their family and all their friends
:zzz:

Fulit
02-01-2003, 03:15 PM
That ebay thing turned out to be a very crass hoax perpetrated by someone to get hits to their site or something. How unfeeling.:mad:

JediTricks
02-01-2003, 05:02 PM
This is indeed a tragedy for all mankind, but we have to get back up, learn from what went wrong and get our space program up and running as soon as possible - another tragedy would be a reaction like after the Challenger accident where NASA didn't send humans back into space for years. Let me tell you something, accident or deliberate, the loss of the Columbia should only strengthen our resolve to make manned space travel more common via safer, more effecient, more cost-effective methods; we cannot simply pull the blanket over our heads and give up. We have to take that next step into space and no terrorist, no fouled o-ring, no damaged tiles, NOTHING should be stopping us. I can think of no greater way to dishonor those brave astronauts who died today than to have their deaths cause us to slow down the progress of space travel, all of us owe it to them to learn from this disaster and keep the space program from stalling out. These couragous men and women knew the risks involved yet worked incredibly hard to get the right to take that risk, nothing could be more noble nor characteristic of the finest of human nature than what these people did, their deaths should affect us all but we cannot let that affect be one that has negative actions.


Originally posted by sith_killer_99
The shuttle was traveling at 6 times the speed of sound 18 times the speed of sound, actually.


Originally posted by Fulit
I also just read that debris was already for sale on Ebay. I went to the link, but it said it had been removed. Can you imagine? 2 hours after the fact and they're already selling sick souvenirs. Only in America. Check out the addition to Thrawn's ebay ghouls page (at the bottom): http://www.geocities.com/thrawn03/ghoul.html

darthvader92
02-01-2003, 05:29 PM
My thoughts and prayers go out to the crew families!!!!!:cry: :cry:

sith_killer_99
02-01-2003, 05:30 PM
Currently 731 items listed on ebay, ugh, sickening. $400 for a $5.00 commemorative coin!:Pirate:

EricRG
02-01-2003, 05:31 PM
What do you think of the latest "hypothesis"? This whole foam breaking off upon liftoff damaging the left wing which was the first part of the vehicle to show anomoly and lose power upon re-entry. Sounds plausible so far...

It is truly a sad day for the world and for science in general.

LTBasker
02-01-2003, 06:26 PM
You know, one thing that's more freaky about all this is that when the Challenger blew, it did it in a secured area over water right after lift-off, but with Columbia, it's debris is a hazard to homes, cities, etc. In fact they showed a charred piece of debris that landed on a city street in Texas.

RooJay
02-01-2003, 06:41 PM
:(

Bobajames
02-01-2003, 06:48 PM
Did you hear earlier that an Iraqi government official released an official statement about the explosion saying something to the effect of "We are happy that the shuttle blew up and Americans died. God is punishing you for your sins" something like that. Very uncalled for in my opinion especially for some country that we are about to bomb the crap out of.

My thoughts and prayers to the families of the crew of the Columbia

Jedi Master Silas
02-01-2003, 07:26 PM
:cry: :cry: :zzz: :zzz:

Fulit
02-01-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Bobajames
Did you hear earlier that an Iraqi government official released an official statement about the explosion saying something to the effect of "We are happy that the shuttle blew up and Americans died. God is punishing you for your sins" something like that. Very uncalled for in my opinion especially for some country that we are about to bomb the crap out of.

My thoughts and prayers to the families of the crew of the Columbia

Yeah, they also referred to the Israeli pilot specifically as being the brunt of "God's vengeance", because he was part of a team that blew up Iraq's nuclear reactor in 1981. Sure, that was God's plan all along, right.

InsaneJediGirl
02-01-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by sith_killer_99
Currently 731 items listed on ebay, ugh, sickening. $400 for a $5.00 commemorative coin!:Pirate:

I saw that as well sith_killer.You know,if the entire thing wouldnt have happened the coin wouldn't be at $400.

As for the Iraqis,that was in bad taste.They could have at least stayed quiet for a day before declaring the killing of 7 innocent people in "Gods Plan":rolleyes:

Kidhuman
02-01-2003, 09:02 PM
My thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of the unfortunate souls that lost their lives.

I can not believe that people are trying to make a profit on Ebay. That is sick IMO. And for the Iraqis's(sp?) well that is another story.........

Old Fossil
02-01-2003, 09:03 PM
Godspeed, Columbia.:zzz:

sunshine
02-01-2003, 10:34 PM
My Prayers are with them.:(

dr_evazan22
02-01-2003, 10:38 PM
My thoughts go out to the family, friends and colleagues of the astronauts.

JT- I agree 100% w/ what you said about continuing the Space Program, it needs to keep on going.

What were you doing when you first heard the news (about both the Columbia and the Challenger)?

I had just gotten home from work and was watching "Cops" when it was mentioned on a News break on the commercial. I wasn't clear if they were talking about something new or about the Challenger. When I came online I found out it was new:cry: .

I was 15 when I heard about the Challenger. My first class after lunch was Geometry, and someone had brought it up. We turned on the TV and watched and talked about it for a while.



Originally posted by Bobjames
Very uncalled for in my opinion especially for some country that we are about to bomb the crap out of.

As if expressing condolences would save Saddam and Co. from an ***-whupping. I hope the first eight bombs have Columbia's name, and the names of the 7 astronauts written on them.

sith_killer_99
02-01-2003, 10:46 PM
The day of the Challenger accident I was home sick. I was in the 6th grade and I had stayed home from school, though I was well enough to work on a model car and watch TV. ;)

I was always very interested in the space program, even back then, especially back then. I was too stunned to cry when the Shuttle exploded. It was a pretty significant event, and the second time in my life that I realized that I was watching a tragic history unfold. The first being the day that Regan was shot.

aharry
02-01-2003, 11:16 PM
I was working teleprompter for a 9AM newscast this morning for a local TV station when this happened. Things started normal and we planned to show the landing live as usual. However, when we got halfway through the "A" block (the segment of the show that runs from start to the first break), the network started buzzing about how NASA lost contact. The cameraman talked to the control room at the station, which was monitoring the situation and we he turned to me and said "This doesn't look good". I felt a strong sense of dread come over me as I watched the initial footage of the shuttle coming down. My official job is editing video and as today went on, I got to know the astronauts a little better. Godspeed to Columbia Crew STS 107. You will not be forgotten.:(

Darth Sinister
02-02-2003, 03:47 AM
I was in junior high school when the Challenger accident happened. It was really sad because we had a guy from NASA at out school doing a presentation on the Space Shuttle. We all watched it together and I will never forget the look on the man's face.......I believe I had that same face when I saw Columbia going down. When I was younger, I don't think it sunk into me what had happened. This time it just left a lump in my throat and I was stunned. This is a truely sad time in America, I pray for the families and friends of those 7 who were lost. They are truely exploring the heavens now......and are at peace.

Darth Sinister
02-02-2003, 03:51 AM
Oh, and yes, I do have one of those commemerative Columbia coins that I bought at the Huntsville Space Center back in the early 80's........and I am not selling it to make a quick buck.

Ebay should halt sales like that until a certain amount of time has passed....but then they wouldn't get their money either. I didn't want to end this on an angry note but this sickens me to no end. I am sorry.

Eternal Padawan
02-02-2003, 08:59 AM
I remember Columbia's very first launch.

That was a great day from my youth. It was a glimpse into the future and all that could be accomplished.


Now I've seen her final flight, too. :(:cry:


Farewell, Columbia. May the stars be ever at your bow.

scruffziller
02-02-2003, 09:34 AM
This was bound to happen sooner or later and it will happen again in the future.

mabudonicus
02-02-2003, 10:34 AM
When the Challenger was destroyed I was at a school where we had to stay in our classrooms for lunch, grade 6 or 7, and our teacher ran into the room and was yelling about something having blown up.....
About 2 years earlier, the Columbia had been flown over our area (and many others, I imagine) piggybacked to it's 747- we were allowed to go out in the fields and wait for it....
It was quite a shock when it happened....
Being older, I look at this a bit differently... I am surprised that the re-entry has gone off so smoothly so many times, this doesn't make it any less tragic, but it is a really tricky, super dangerous operation, as I was watching the footage of how re-entry is done (I'd heard about it, but never really considered it too hard), I was more surprised that it had ever been done successfully at all...

It really shouldn't take too long to get past this, it seems fairly clear what happened in a most basic sense, and it doesn't seem to have been a "mystery" factor...

SirSteve
02-02-2003, 02:23 PM
Very sad indeed.... I am only about 40 min from Kennedy Space Center and they had swat out there on top of roof buildings... crazy.

Jargo
02-02-2003, 03:01 PM
Did people go this crazy when the Apollo missions exploded on take off or whatever? Those Columbia astronauts knew the risks when they signed on for the job. It goes with the territory. I just see this gross public outpouring of grief and marvel at how the general public will weep at the drop of a hat these days. I think it's sad when anyone loses their life but hey, we never knew these people so why this overly emotional sentimentalised response? Are people gonna weep for every dead person that hits the news now? Are we going to become a world full of professional mourners? Life sucks, death sucks but there's no need to wallow in assumed grief because some TV station just keeps telling you it's a 'tragedy' and keeps replaying the same images over and over.
Oh I'll probably get called callous now, possibly heartless. I'm just being a realist. Woo.
I never understood the attraction of space anyway considering there's so much down here we still haven't fully understood or explored. Fine, send satellites up for telecommunications but all this talk of colonising space and having scientific research labs up there, and even colonising Mars what's the point please? There's enough down here on terra firma to be sorting out first before any fanciful nonsense.
So yeah, seven more dead people because of some damn fool notion that there's something out there worth having. basically greed. Let's farm the moon and mars for the resources we raped and depleted from planet earth already. Instead of taking the responsibility for destroying one planet let's screw up a couple more.
Too bad some people died just doing a job of work. Life goes on. Laying down flowers isn't going to bring them back so stop being so damn dumb and be glad you aren't going to die so horribly. I'm afraid i can't see any astronaut as brave or courageous for taking a space flight. I just think they must be slightly mentally impaired to agree to take any space journey. A dangerous vehicle like that could have exploded at any given point and anyone taking risks like that must be nuts. I also think that about any pilot too so there you go.

EricRG
02-02-2003, 03:22 PM
Jeez, having a bad day, Jargo?

The fact of the matter is, is yes, these people DID know they were risking their lives...and why? To make YOUR life better. You obviously don't realize that space shuttles are called "orbiters" for a reason - they don't do "space exploration". They are involved mostly in scientific research, deploying/repairing satellites (which you advocate), and keeping the space station running (where they do even more scientific research). A lot of the research (especially on this most recent mission) is biology-based. For example, by doing experiments WITHOUT gravity, we can learn more about gravity's effects. Don't we have gravity here on Earth?

I apologize on Jargo's behalf for the SirSteves community to any relatives/friends of the astronauts who might read his worthless words. If I were a moderator, I'd delete that post.

James Boba Fettfield
02-02-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
I'm afraid i can't see any astronaut as brave or courageous for taking a space flight. I just think they must be slightly mentally impaired to agree to take any space journey.

So because someone wants to further exploration they are mentally impaired? I can accept you being upset about the whole public outpour of grief over this, but saying that little bit right there is uncalled for. Taking risks is what life's about.

Darth Sinister
02-02-2003, 04:08 PM
Maybe we search the dark skies to search for more new and intelligent things in the world. We do things up there to help us down here....but since they may not affect you personally Jargo...they are pointless. Yes, it is sad when everyone dies....I have always said that the networks should give a min of silence to those who lost their lives on that day. I've got a good place for you Jargo....Iraq....no, I take that back. As warped as they are, being glad that they went down, at least they have an emotional response to it......you just don't care. Thanks for taking the human race another notch down today.

Lord Malakite
02-02-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
I never understood the attraction of space anyway considering there's so much down here we still haven't fully understood or explored.

You've seen Star Wars and Star Trek Jargo. Isn't the belief that someday something along those lines being possible attraction enough. As for exploring on earth, the only thing we haven't explored in much detail is the bottom of the ocean, and thats because we can't build anything that can withstand the pressure, yet.


So yeah, seven more dead people because of some damn fool notion that there's something out there worth having. basically greed. Let's farm the moon and mars for the resources we raped and depleted from planet earth already. Instead of taking the responsibility for destroying one planet let's screw up a couple more.

Nothing lives there, so its not like we would be hurting anyone. :D


Laying down flowers isn't going to bring them back so stop being so damn dumb and be glad you aren't going to die so horribly. I'm afraid i can't see any astronaut as brave or courageous for taking a space flight. I just think they must be slightly mentally impaired to agree to take any space journey. A dangerous vehicle like that could have exploded at any given point and anyone taking risks like that must be nuts.

Actually, I wouldn't mind going out like that when I do. Death would have been instant in the explosion, so no suffering. I wouldn't have to worry about my body rotting over years (trust me after seeing those HBO specials, its not a pretty process). Plus, I would be remembered forever in history. As for being crazy, its no crazier than driving a car or riding a train, and we have seen far more fatalities result from that than in shuttle accidents.

hango fett
02-02-2003, 05:14 PM
very sad. i didn't hear about it untill about 6 yesterday afternoon, seeing as which i was at a weightlifting meet in kenton ohio, and there were no TV's to watch. i have no doubt that this was an accident. i couldn't make myself think it was a "act of terrorisism."
my condolences to all the families.

Porcelina
02-02-2003, 09:13 PM
from the deepest, most sincere part of my heart... condolences to all friends and family of those lost.......

however, while i do not agree *entirely* with what jargo said.... umm, he does have a point.... as cold-hearted as it may seem, it's also a practical and realistic viewpoint.....

this was a tragic, horrific accident... but tragic, horrific accidents happen every day.... although mostly to people we don't know, and who aren't "news-worthy" so we dont start memorial threads on all of them.....

and, i admit, this may seem a tad strange to some people, but i consider what *every* person does important..to the same degree... we all have purpose... and to those of you who may argue that the purpose of these astronauts was "more important" than regular people, i'm sorry to say i disagree... in my naive, idealistic eyes (see i'm admitting it!), we all have a purpose that is equally important....

so, while i am deeply sorry for the loss of these peoples' lives, as i am any lives, i don't see the need to weep about it for much longer...
peace

~

Exhaust Port
02-02-2003, 10:23 PM
I was flying out of Mexico at the time of the accident when a pilot asked the Houston controller if he had any update on the missing Shuttle. This was the first that he or any other pilot on the frequency had heard of this. As we progressed towards Houston news came of a fire ball north of Dallas which only confirmed the worst. Flights coming in from northern Texas were asked by controllers to report any fires seen across the Shuttle's trajectory. Numerous flight crews reported fires which were started by falling space debre. Upon reaching the airport ramp the frequencies were a buzz with pilots sharing condolences, information or asking questions. We told the passengers after the flight ended leaving everyone speechless. It was a sad, sad day.


Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
Did people go this crazy when the Apollo missions exploded on take off or whatever? The only deaths to occur during an Apollo mission were due to the Apollo I fire. I wasn't alive then but I have this feeling that it was as much a tragedy.




Those Columbia astronauts knew the risks when they signed on for the job. It goes with the territory. I just see this gross public outpouring of grief and marvel at how the general public will weep at the drop of a hat these days. I think it's sad when anyone loses their life but hey, we never knew these people so why this overly emotional sentimentalised response? Are people gonna weep for every dead person that hits the news now? Are we going to become a world full of professional mourners? Life sucks, death sucks but there's no need to wallow in assumed grief because some TV station just keeps telling you it's a 'tragedy' and keeps replaying the same images over and over.
Oh I'll probably get called callous now, possibly heartless. I'm just being a realist. Woo.

Last time I checked none of the astronauts that died or those who are still alive asked for sympathy. All those emotions that are expressed are a result of the impact this accident had on those people. Would you say the same of the JFK assassination? These space explorers are basically an elected group to venture into an unknown world. It hurts us (at least most of us) to see our leaders cut down in any manner. Watching the Challenger launch as a child I prayed and hoped that the astronauts would have a safe and successful flight. That didn't happen and that hurt.

There is a certain amount of risk in anything but I feel it's a tragedy when the unknown takes a life away. It's one thing for someone to die in a car wreck, it's another to have someone die as a result of their car spontaneously burning as they drive it to work. Things like that just aren't suppose to happen.


I never understood the attraction of space anyway considering there's so much down here we still haven't fully understood or explored. Fine, send satellites up for telecommunications but all this talk of colonising space and having scientific research labs up there, and even colonising Mars what's the point please? There's enough down here on terra firma to be sorting out first before any fanciful nonsense.

It ironic that you would complain about a scientific field that itself is responsible for you even seeing anything of this story in the first place (satillite communications/transmissions if you couldn't figure it out).

Many benefits have come from the exploration of space from the microwave in the kitchen to breast cancer detection. Are you saying that further advances aren't possible? That we've reached the end of the discoveries as a result of space exploration/research? I would find a world without the advances that NASA has provided us quite a bit harder.

http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html


A dangerous vehicle like that could have exploded at any given point and anyone taking risks like that must be nuts.

Do you drive a car? I'm pretty sure that driving a car is a pretty big risk that a lot of us take. Off the top of my head I can think of 5 people that were killed in my high school alone from driving a car. All their fault? Nope. You're right though, since driving is a risk we should all stop and walk everywhere. Oh wait, we might fall and break a leg.


I also think that about any pilot too so there you go.

That's too bad. So pilot should stop their "risky" job flying (more people die driving remember) because why? It has a level of risk associated with it? What's so risky?

Do you think the world could do without their goods being transported by air? You want that package to go across the country? 2 days of solid driving could get it there but that would mean more drivers on the streets. One FedEx airplane can carry 100,000's of pounds of cargo, how many trucks would it take? An organ needs to get to California? Sorry you don't get it because it would expire in the long car ride.

Remember how well our economy functioned with the skies being shutdown for 3 days in the September of 2001? It's a highly specialized skill that has nearly no risk involved if performed properly, just like a surgeon.....or would you prefer that the surgeons stop too?

scruffziller
02-02-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by James Boba Fettfield
Taking risks is what life's about.

Yep, It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
02-03-2003, 12:35 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3205588069&category=13904

Saw this ebay and i think it's a very interesting piece. It's nothing for sale, it's just a guy making a statement. Glad somebody had the courage to put a statement on e-bay. cheers! :D

mabudonicus
02-03-2003, 10:01 AM
Just a quick note- "Growing Up" is what made Jargo that way already.....
If he "grows up" anymore, I imagine he'll come in here yelling something like "Hey, kids-get outta that Jello tree", firing off random blasts from a blunderbuss filled with rock salt.... now's I think about it, that could be pretty funny, but only if ya wears the bunny costume, EJ :happy:

The Overlord Returns
02-03-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by EricRG

I apologize on Jargo's behalf for the SirSteves community to any relatives/friends of the astronauts who might read his worthless words. If I were a moderator, I'd delete that post.

Please don't speak for me Eric. As for Jargo's post being deleted, it was his opinion on this board, and has as much a right to be here as anyone's. Are you advocating censorship?

While this is a tragedy, it is not the only one to occur this weekend, and, compared to the train accident in africa, it was a minor loss of life. I think the point here is, what public deaths merit a thread on them, and which do not?

In the same weekend where these astronauts died doing their jobs (or a part of their jobs) 7 young kids died in an avalanche. In China, a hotel fire killed 33 people celebrating the new year.

It certainly is sad that, in the quest for human knowledge, accidents, and tragedies will occur. It is sad that natural disasters lead to people simply attempting to enjoy life losing theirs. Death in general is sad and devastating....but it occurs. Do we personally mourn every death that occurs on this planet? Of course not. This may have deeply effected you...but it did not effect Jargo in the same way. And clearly, these other tragedies that occured in the past few days did not effect you in the way the columbia explosion did. Are you a "bad" person for not mentioning these tragedies? No......and neither is Jargo for expressing his thoughts on this event.

Exhaust Port
02-03-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
....and neither is Jargo for expressing his thoughts on this event.

Death is a personal issue and I find it wrong for anyone to blast others for feeling remorse that they themselves to not have. What gives Jargo the right to belittle others for feeling upset over this tragedy? If someone had a friend die I wouldn't expect others to feel truly sad for the loss but I would expect them to respect those that are hurt. Just because you don't know someone doesn't mean you go into the graveyard and **** on their grave.

The Overlord Returns
02-03-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Death is a personal issue and I find it wrong for anyone to blast others for feeling remorse that they themselves to not have. What gives Jargo the right to belittle for others for feeling upset over this tragedy? If someone had a friend die I wouldn't expect others to feel truly sad for the loss but I would expect them to respect those that are hurt. Just because you don't know someone doesn't mean you go into the graveyard and **** on their grave.

While this is a tragedy, it is also a historical event, and Jargo's comments fall under commentary. He is under no obligation to fall in line with the masses who are expressing sorrow for what's happened. Nor should he be expected to. He's chosen to look at this from another angle, and people are tearing at him for it.

Personally, I reacted to this with very little emotion. Same reaction I have to most public news about deaths that occur. I feel more sorrow for their children losing a parent. That's the bigger tragedy to me.

Exhaust Port
02-03-2003, 11:51 AM
It's one thing to say you don't feel sorrow for someone's loss, it's another to say basically they got what they deserved and those of us that are mourning are rediculous.

Here is a program that involves 100,000's of people working to insure a safe outcome day in and day out for our astronauts at they travel to, through and from space. That mission failed leaving a lot of people hurt. For that reason it will get more coverage than 33 people dying in a hotel fire on the other side of the world.

You're right, Jargo or anyone is under no obligation to express sorrow but I feel they have the obligation to honor the right for others to do so. I don't feel expressing outrage that so many of the public have been touched by this does that.

The Overlord Returns
02-03-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
It's one thing to say you don't feel sorrow for someone's loss, it's another to say basically they got what they deserved and those of us that are mourning are rediculous.


I didn't really get "they got what they deserved" out of EJ's post. They DID know the risks going in, is what he was getting at.



Originally posted by Exhaust Port

Here is a program that involves 100,000's of people working to insure a safe outcome day in and day out for our astronauts at they travel to, through and from space. That mission failed leaving a lot of people hurt. For that reason it will get more coverage than 33 people dying in a hotel fire on the other side of the world.


Yet the loss of life is more than triple. If we are going to mourn tragedy in general, why would we place one above another? Who knows what future genius or world leader may have died in that fire? If this was a Russian mission, would it get this kind of constant airplay?



Originally posted by Exhaust Port

You're right, Jargo or anyone is under no obligation to express sorrow but I feel they have the obligation to honor the right for others to do so. I don't feel expressing outrage that so many of the public have been touched by this does that.

Again, I didn't see any outrage in his remarks, he merely wonders why people react the way they do to certain things, and not others. I have often felt the same way. I remember the ridiculous outpouring of grief over Princess di's death, and I couldn't help wondering how much of it was sincere.

Again, let me reiterate that I do think this is tragic. I just don't feel it is more or less so than all the stories of tragedy and death that didn't get covered this weekend.

Exhaust Port
02-03-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Yet the loss of life is more than triple. If we are going to mourn tragedy in general, why would we place one above another? Who knows what future genius or world leader may have died in that fire? If this was a Russian mission, would it get this kind of constant airplay?

It has to do with how many lifes this tragedy has personally touched in some way. With 100,000's of people being involved in the space program it's easy to see how this affected more than 33 Chinese citizens.

The Overlord Returns
02-03-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
It has to do with how many lifes this tragedy has personally touched in some way. With 100,000's of people being involved in the space program it's easy to see how this affected more than 33 Chinese citizens.

Ah, but those 33 chinese citizens have families, and loved ones, and friends who are all affected. In turn, it buts a dark cloud over the chinese new year in general, further affecting the chinese population around the world.

I see what you're getting at though, and so far it's been the best explanation I've seen.

Exhaust Port
02-03-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Ah, but those 33 chinese citizens have families, and loved ones, and friends who are all affected.

But those that are affected are in China and America has little if no connection to that event. I'm sure their country is mourning their loss as we are mourning ours. India is mourning the loss of their citizen who was on the Columbia. Israel is mourning the loss of their citizen who was on the Columbia. And we are mourning the loss of our citizens in this International mission and program as well as being saddened by our failures.

EricRG
02-04-2003, 12:17 AM
This is a RIDICULOUS debate. Jargo's comments were insensitive and without tact. I'm sorry, but in this case, Jargo should have kept his comments to himself. Anybody directly affected by these events would be appalled to read his words.

Sorry, but I don't think the Forums would last very long with a thread for each person who dies. That argument is so silly. :crazed: The fact is, this event affected everyone who visits SSG much moreso than the deaths in China or wherever else. Sure, it's unfortunate that those people died as well, but I myself simply had no way to identify with those people.

2-1B
02-04-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Are you a "bad" person for not mentioning these tragedies? No......

Are you sure? :confused:

Because it seems everytime someone wants to mourn publicly, you need to point out how actually insignificant the events in question are. :stupid:

Sentinel18725
02-04-2003, 01:01 AM
I remember that I was in fifth grade in Mrs. Rogney's Social studies class....to the left of the door, across from her desk

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Are you sure? :confused:

Because it seems everytime someone wants to mourn publicly, you need to point out how actually insignificant the events in question are. :stupid:

Well, in this particular case, I fully expected to find this memorial thread. I simply think Jargo's comments are as valid as anyone elses.

It's not a matter of this being insignificant, it's just no more significant than any other tragic death in the world.

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by EricRG
This is a RIDICULOUS debate. Jargo's comments were insensitive and without tact. I'm sorry, but in this case, Jargo should have kept his comments to himself. Anybody directly affected by these events would be appalled to read his words.

Sorry, but I don't think the Forums would last very long with a thread for each person who dies. That argument is so silly. :crazed: The fact is, this event affected everyone who visits SSG much moreso than the deaths in China or wherever else. Sure, it's unfortunate that those people died as well, but I myself simply had no way to identify with those people.

Again, you keep on speaking for everyone. I am not all that affected by this, nor is Jargo or porcelina. So clearly, EVERYONE was the wrong choice of word.

Porcelina
02-04-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by EricRG
The fact is, this event affected everyone who visits SSG much moreso than the deaths in China or wherever else. Sure, it's unfortunate that those people died as well, but I myself simply had no way to identify with those people.

eric: this is a sincere question.....

assuming you, and most--if not all--of the people here, are not friends/relatives of the seven astronauts, why does this tragedy affect you more than another one? because it happened in the states? because cnn shoved it down your throat? because you think astronauts are more important than "normal" people?

ignore any sarcasm that unintentionally slipped in there, and please answer me honestly, cos i'm really curious.....

Exhaust Port
02-04-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Porcelina
because it happened in the states?

Well for starters, yes that is a big reason. How did 9/11 affect you or most Americans? Did you know anyone killed that day? It was a tragedy on so many levels for so many people not even in this country. Why is hard for some people to accept that something beyond their own little world can affect so many people?


because you think astronauts are more important than "normal" people?

They aren't more important but they aren't considered "normal." The astronauts have passed a level of physical and mental standards that no other job that I can think of has. They decided to work in a hostile environment that no other job can compare too. But put it bluntly, they are an elite group of people.

I think this PC approach to mourning is a bunch of crap. What, unless we give everyone in the world an equal amount of time on the stage of life we shouldn't do anything at all? I hate to break it to some of those reading this but some people are a cut above the rest and will get a bit more attention when they leave this world. If gifted artists, scientists, public officials, police officers, etc. die, then they will be honored more than when most of us pass on.

If anyone would volunteer for the astronaut program, the military or to be a fireman they would know exactly what they were getting themselves into. A lot of people see that as an honorable decision, taking on a known risk to better society. It seems that some of you would rather treat that decision as a disclaimer for anyone putting them on a pedestle (sp?). A lot more of us are thankful that they do the job they do because we aren't willing/able to do that ourselves. I could never see myself as a police officer with the neverending danger. Therefore I'm forever grateful for the job they do and am saddened everytime I hear of an officer killed on duty. Whether I know of them or not is not an issue.

EricRG
02-04-2003, 11:59 AM
porcelina,

For me, I was touched because the astronauts are SCIENTISTS, as myself. I've always been a big fan of the space program since my early childhood and am extremely disappointed when things are put on hold, as they are now, and were for years after the Challenger accident. And finally, there's certainly something noble about dying while doing a job which is a service to the public.

You'll find as you spend more time here, porcelina, that I do NOT simply accept what the media tells me. I'm a scientist...I question the validity of EVERYTHING.

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Well for starters, yes that is a big reason. How did 9/11 affect you or most Americans? Did you know anyone killed that day? It was a tragedy on so many levels for so many people not even in this country. Why is hard for some people to accept that something beyond their own little world can affect so many people?


That's a completely different event, and not really relevant to this discussion. 9/11 was NOT america's tragedy, it was the worlds. it was a world changing event. It was this generations defining moment. It was ours. Hardly the same thing as seven dead in a space shuttle.

I agree, certain events transpire that affect the world in more ways than others. I'm thinking of the Lockerbie crash, or the childrens school shootings in scotland. The question is, how much of this reaction is fueled, in fact, created, by the media coverage? Would we mourn so much over this, were it 6 russian astronauts and 1 israeli?



Originally posted by Exhaust Port

They aren't more important but they aren't considered "normal." The astronauts have passed a level of physical and mental standards that no other job that I can think of has. They decided to work in a hostile environment that no other job can compare too. But put it bluntly, they are an elite group of people.


Sure, and their are loads of people who die around the world doing similar things, putting themselves in hostile worlds to do their job. Or, think about what's being lost whenever a tragic accident happens. In the case of the BC avalanche, children died. Who knows what they would have become. I don't know, I find the loss of future life somehow more tragic than this event, but hey, that's just me, people are different, and different things effect them.


Originally posted by Exhaust Port

I think this PC approach to mourning is a bunch of crap. What, unless we give everyone in the world an equal amount of time on the stage of life we shouldn't do anything at all? I hate to break it to some of those reading this but some people are a cut above the rest and will get a bit more attention when they leave this world. If gifted artists, scientists, public officials, police officers, etc. die, then they will be honored more than when most of us pass on.



I don't think it's a matter of "PC" at all, ( I mean, how often is PC used now as a new "insult'?). It's a matter of how we learn that certain deaths are sadder than others. I'm sorry, but this tragedy is not greater than the hundreds of starvation deaths happening around the world, I don't care how "a cut above" these astronauts were.

Anyhow, this isn't even why I got involved in this thread. I merely wanted to defend Jargo's right to speak his mind. Personally, I do see this event as obviously being that of a "thread inducing" event. I just find it sad that people need everyone to feel the same way they do, as if it validates their emotions somehow...

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by EricRG
.

Sorry, but I don't think the Forums would last very long with a thread for each person who dies. That argument is so silly. :crazed: The fact is, this event affected everyone who visits SSG much moreso than the deaths in China or wherever else. Sure, it's unfortunate that those people died as well, but I myself simply had no way to identify with those people.

I find this interesting. I'm sure you have no way to "identify" with the civilian population of Iraq, yet you bring them up as a tragedy that may unfold in Bush's war against Hussein. Why bother mentioning them, if you can't "relate"?

2-1B
02-04-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Well, in this particular case, I fully expected to find this memorial thread. I simply think Jargo's comments are as valid as anyone elses.

It's not a matter of this being insignificant, it's just no more significant than any other tragic death in the world.

Exactly. It IS insignificant when compared to other tragedies. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I just find it sad that people need everyone to feel the same way they do, as if it validates their emotions somehow...

I feel the same about people who need to jump and down reminding others of greater body counts while they mourn a different event. ;)





Jargo can handle himself just fine, he's been outspoken on this site for years. You claim you're only looking to defend Jargo's right to his view, yet you used your same old routine to marginalize the deaths of these astronauts. :p

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Exactly. It IS insignificant when compared to other tragedies. :rolleyes:


No, they are ALL significant. This one just isn't more important because it was a NASA space shuttle crew.



Originally posted by Caesar

I feel the same about people who need to jump and down reminding others of greater body counts while they mourn a different event. ;)


Again, had I not have seen certain people saying Jargo's post should be censored, or that he should go to Iraq :rolleyes: , I actually wouldn't have posted in this thread at all.

Exhaust Port
02-04-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
That's a completely different event, and not really relevant to this discussion. 9/11 was NOT america's tragedy, it was the worlds. it was a world changing event. It was this generations defining moment. It was ours. Hardly the same thing as seven dead in a space shuttle.

There were people from 3 countries and 3 different religions on Columbia. In addition, space exploration is a multi-national indeveour and I would be just as sad to hear of a lost Russian crew. Of course the impact would be greater if the remainants of their space capsule rained down on our homes.

I also feel that both shuttle accidents are generation defining moments. Just as people ask "where were you when JFK was shot" they ask "where were you when the Challenger exploded." The same will be said 20 from now about this.


I agree, certain events transpire that affect the world in more ways than others. I'm thinking of the Lockerbie crash, or the childrens school shootings in scotland. The question is, how much of this reaction is fueled, in fact, created, by the media coverage? Would we mourn so much over this, were it 6 russian astronauts and 1 israeli?

Well everyone who I had run into for the 24 hours following the Columbia accident showed pure emotion. We didn't have the ability to watch this unfold on TV or to be "influenced" by media coverage. I don't think what you've seen was a reaction to good reporting. No bubblehead bleach blond could spin any story for me to be swayed into feeling sadness. I doubt most, if any are.


I don't know, I find the loss of future life somehow more tragic than this event, but hey, that's just me, people are different, and different things effect them.

So that affects you more? Fine, something will touch home more than others. I know I'm probably touched more by an airplane accident than the average joe but that's just because of my association. EricRG's a scientist and is connected in that manner. That is why I find it disturbing that someone will try to justify why one loss is greater than another. "How can we talk about these astronauts when 7 kids died in Canada?" Well, more are associated with the space program than those 7 kids in Canada.


I don't think it's a matter of "PC" at all, ( I mean, how often is PC used now as a new "insult'?). It's a matter of how we learn that certain deaths are sadder than others. I'm sorry, but this tragedy is not greater than the hundreds of starvation deaths happening around the world, I don't care how "a cut above" these astronauts were.

Well I guess we think differently on that. Convicted rapist are pretty low on my list of valued humans. I wouldn't shed one tear to hear of their passing. If the president would die then I would be crushed. You can do 2 things in life, Lead or Follow. The leaders are going to have a greater impact than those that sit by and watch the world go by.


I just find it sad that people need everyone to feel the same way they do, as if it validates their emotions somehow...

I don't remember anyone asking that others have to feel the same way. The problem arises when in threads similar to this one were someone feels they need to point out that the could care less that the above mentioned person/persons died. Hey, I don't understand all the time why certain folks are important to others but let them have their moment and move on.

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port

That is why I find it disturbing that someone will try to justify why one loss is greater than another.


I haven't been doing that...yet:


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
[B]
Well, more are associated with the space program than those 7 kids in Canada.


Isn't that what you are doing with this statement?



Originally posted by Exhaust Port
[B]

If the president would die then I would be crushed. You can do 2 things in life, Lead or Follow. The leaders are going to have a greater impact than those that sit by and watch the world go by.



See, I differ greatly here. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the death of a politician. Occasionally, there is a rare political figure who actually seems to want to do some good, but mostly, they're all scum. I don't want to see them die prematurely, but I wouldn't shed many tears for GWB, or my own Prime Minister, when they kick the bucket.

2-1B
02-04-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
No, they are ALL significant. This one just isn't more important because it was a NASA space shuttle crew.

No, it's actually less significant because


I don't know, I find the loss of future life somehow more tragic than this event, but hey, that's just me, people are different, and different things effect them.

Oh, so there IS greater significance in certain tragedies? ;)




Thanks for clearing that up. :)

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 01:43 PM
Sarcasm aside,

There's a difference between significance in a general scale, and what personally tugs at ones heart strings. I don't think the death of these kids is more important than that of the astronauts, or more significant, it is just more likely to get me in an emotional way....... see, it's an individual thing...

Clear now? ;)

Darth Sinister
02-04-2003, 02:13 PM
Why is everyone having to defend themselves in this thread? I t seems this thread was created with the best of intentions...but as usual, there are some who would...like always...use this to spark a debate were one is not needed. This "debate" wasn't started out of curiousity for the outpouring, no, it was started just to stir the pot a little. How else would you explain someone coming on here at the absolute worst time and choosing to question why we are having these emotions.

You want to know the difference between 7 dead Astronauts and 33 dead Chinese? In America, when someone trains for years to become something they always dreamed of becoming and to have them die in the midst of that dream, we tend to be happy that they acheived their dream yet sad that they didn't come home. That is what is called a range of emotions...it is also one of these emotions that makes us think that this just another tragedy that this country doesn't need right now....so it reaches even further than the 7 that were killed.

In China, they are lead by an emperor and an overlord that simply see 33 deaths as.....population control. They are curious of what the big deal is. People die every day, it is the logical conclusion of life. They would rather debate the loss of life rather than mourn it. Sounds like hell to me.

The fact that you would choose this thread to question our emotional attachment to these people is in really bad taste. Most people here are fans of science and of exploration. We have dreamed of doing what they do and wished that on day we could look down on this world like they have. I find your arguements badly timed, insulting and rude....but it's also what I've come to expect. There are some here who were once great debaters who are now nothing more than terrible agitators.

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 02:20 PM
You might try reading all of my posts before saying that I "chose" to question emotional attachment in anyone. like I said, I wouldn't have said a word here if I hadn't seen people calling for comment bans, or telling a poster to go to iraq.... :rolleyes:

Exhaust Port
02-04-2003, 05:51 PM
If your intent had been to only comment on banning threats or telling posters off then that is something that could have been done without using the Shuttle accident as a platform.

We'll mourn the loss of our astronauts and you can mourn the loss of yours.

The Overlord Returns
02-04-2003, 05:57 PM
I haven't lost any astronauts....

JediTricks
02-04-2003, 09:49 PM
This bickering has gotten us nowhere. At first I felt that having opposing viewpoints on this issue was going to be acceptable, but clearly it's turned this thread into something crass.

As Exhaust Port points out, "Death is a personal issue and I find it wrong for anyone to blast others for feeling remorse that they themselves to not have. What gives {anybody} the right to belittle others for feeling upset over this tragedy?" If folks are invested emotionally this strongly about an issue, then opposition to a feeling of mourning can seem like belittlement and cruelty to others. Jargo wasn't the only one to say something insensitive on this thread, he wasn't even the first, but after a certain point there has to be a level of disrespect towards those who are feeling pained -- clearly, EP wasn't the only one who felt violated in that respect.

Jargo's had his say and I don't plan on removing it, but the deed is done and you guys can't unread what you saw so we can either dwell on it and continue to breathe life into this unpleasantness or continue the initial discussion this thread was started upon - as moderator, I'm choosing the latter. If you guys want to argue about the nature of public mourning, do it in a different thread, that's not what this one is about and I'm done seeing this thread hijacked on the issue - any further posts debating that issue will be deleted and if it's a pattern from a specific user, that user will have ALL of his or her posts deleted from this thread.

Dar' Argol
02-04-2003, 10:38 PM
First off, JT, sorry you had to step in, I was out for the past 2 days and this is the first chance I had to get back here. But thanx for the step in:D


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
like I said, I wouldn't have said a word here if I hadn't seen people calling for comment bans, or telling a poster to go to iraq.... :rolleyes:

I do not ever remember Jargo needed anyone to come to his aid in a thread b/4, and I don't think he needs it now. Reguardless of how many ppl call for a post deletion, the only ones who can do it here is SirSteve, JT, and myself. So instead of coming in here and laying down what you have posted, you should have PM'ed one or all of us about this. I was PM'ed by several ppl that day when Jargo posted it about removing his post. But I did not. I felt, even though I may have disagreed with Jargo, that it was his POV, his opinion, and just like everyone else who starts a "I hate the new R2 figure" thread, he has a right to voice his opinion. So coming in here and "defending" Jargo was not needed.

Now, let it drop! You've made you point and like JT said, this is not the thread for a debate over public mourning. You want to hash that out, make another thread. I will also, since this is my area and all :rolleyes: :D , keep an eye on this thread so if anything gets out of hand, it will be delt with approperatly.

plasticfetish
02-05-2003, 04:33 AM
Not that I really want to contribute to that cat-fight on the previous pages, but something about Jargo's post struck me as being a little ironic ... hmmm ... let's read it again shall we?


Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
I never understood the attraction of space anyway considering there's so much down here we still haven't fully understood or explored. Fine, send satellites up for telecommunications but all this talk of colonising space and having scientific research labs up there, and even colonising Mars what's the point please? There's enough down here on terra firma to be sorting out first before any fanciful nonsense.

I suppose with this being a Star Wars related site, I would assume that most of us around here would have at least some kind of interest in space. Now, I know Jargo's "thing" is to be all cynical and biting ... and most often I find him funny, but this time ...

I find this event to be so terrible (aside from all of the worlds other tragedies) because perhaps deep down I'm a little jealous of what those astronauts did accomplish during their lives. I'm envious of who they were and what they were able to do. I think maybe most of us to a certain degree kind of wish that we could be a part of what they've worked at ... and in many ways this situation is so painful because with their deaths we see a little bit of our own dreams die. Jargo mentioned the Apollo tradgedy (I assume you mean Apollo 1) where 3 great astronauts died ... same thing, same loss. These people DO the things that most of us only fantasize about. They work in space ... they live in space ... they are a part of mankind's evolution beyond it's earthly beginnings.

"never understood the attraction of space anyway"
Oh, quiet silly man ... we all know you aren't telling the truth. When these astronauts travel into space, they take our minds and hearts with them. They lift us up beyond the problems of Earth. When they die, it sadly reminds us that for every dream there are a thousand realities. I pay tribute to them for giving me the opportunity to dream just a little.

Exhaust Port
02-05-2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by plasticfetish
I find this event to be so terrible (aside from all of the worlds other tragedies) because perhaps deep down I'm a little jealous of what those astronauts did accomplish during their lives. I'm envious of who they were and what they were able to do.

That is one of the reasons that the astronaut profession is so unique. All of our astronauts have reached their esteemed position through hard work. They are no different than you or I but they have achieved what they have by working even harder than the average joe.

We seem to live in a society where many "successful" people are only so because of a windfall not necessarily through hard work. Astronauts seems to be the poster children for the "Work Hard, Stay in School" ethic that is so lacking in so many people. They didn't win a lottery to get there, their dad wasn't the owner of the business or they didn't have an insider walk in their resume.

NASA wants the best and the brightest, and that's what they've gotten. I salute what astronauts do and what they did to get there.