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View Full Version : Is Vader a moron or did George screw up?



El Chuxter
02-04-2003, 03:09 PM
"If he could be turned, he could be a powerful ally."

Why does Vader say this to the Emperor in ESB? Presumably the "only two" rule stands. The Emperor says in ROTJ, after all, "take your father's place at my side." And Vader tells Luke that he can complete his training and the two can defeat Palpatine.

If this is the case, then if Luke is turned, then either Vader or Palpy has to go. So Vader's more or less saying, "Hey, Emperor, you know what would be really cool? Why don't we have a contest to see who can turn Luke evil? Winner gets a new apprentice. Loser dies."

Right?

DahrJin
02-04-2003, 03:37 PM
Well, according to the SW novels, the original 3 that is, some ESB but mostly in ROTJ, Vader had it in his head that together both he and Luke could defeat the Emp. then he could complete Lukes training. Leaving only two.

The Emp. knows that for Luke to take Vaders place at his side, he'd have to KILL Vader and then he would complete Lukes training . Again, only leaving the two.

Silly, twisted and confusing, but it works out. Well in my head any way. :D

stillakid
02-04-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
"If he could be turned, he could be a powerful ally."

Why does Vader say this to the Emperor in ESB? Presumably the "only two" rule stands. The Emperor says in ROTJ, after all, "take your father's place at my side." And Vader tells Luke that he can complete his training and the two can defeat Palpatine.

If this is the case, then if Luke is turned, then either Vader or Palpy has to go. So Vader's more or less saying, "Hey, Emperor, you know what would be really cool? Why don't we have a contest to see who can turn Luke evil? Winner gets a new apprentice. Loser dies."

Right?

Hmm? Interesting question. I'd venture to say that perhaps Palpatine knows that a) he can't live forever and b) that it might take some time to convert Luke.

More likely is that both Vader and Palpatine have the same goal...to seduce Luke and destroy the other guy. Makes sense in a Sith kind of way. But Palpatine has to go with Vader's idea because he knows Vader will probably do it anyway, with the family connection and all. Palpy also probably figures that if push came to shove, he could just kill both Skywalkers (ego, you know) if they ganged up on him.

Hmm? Like many things in this saga (and many many more in the Prequels), this has to be left up to conjecture as there is nothing onscreen or implied off that answers the question fully.

So, no to both questions I'd say. Vader isn't a moron and George didn't screw up (in that specific instance, most likely because he probably didn't write that bit). When Palpatine first lets on that he knows about Luke, we've already got a strong suspicion that Vader is aware of his son and his growing abilities. It appears as though Palpatine is gravely concerned and might favor just killing the boy. It might be that Vader/Anakin lets his "good side" get the best of him which leads him to suggest an alternative solution at that point ("if he could be turned..."). Palpatine recognizes this and brings it up later in ROTJ ("Are you sure your feelings about this are clear, Lord Vader?" Palpatine asks suspiciously.) So, there's a bit of a chess game going on, even within the ranks of the elite of the Empire.

JediTricks
02-04-2003, 10:24 PM
Perhaps with the Jedi order destroyed, Vader is naive enough to believe there can be room for 3 Sith lords. However, his words on Bespin suggest otherwise, that he does indeed have it within him to destroy the emperor and rule the galaxy. From that perspective, I guess Vader is using Sidious for his own goals - or at least trying to use him - which in of itself sounds like a very Sith thing to do, loyalty to none, use your allies unto your own ambitions until they are no longer your allies, then have them destroyed.

mini-rock
02-05-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
"If he could be turned, he could be a powerful ally."

Why does Vader say this to the Emperor in ESB? Presumably the "only two" rule stands. The Emperor says in ROTJ, after all, "take your father's place at my side." And Vader tells Luke that he can complete his training and the two can defeat Palpatine.

If this is the case, then if Luke is turned, then either Vader or Palpy has to go. So Vader's more or less saying, "Hey, Emperor, you know what would be really cool? Why don't we have a contest to see who can turn Luke evil? Winner gets a new apprentice. Loser dies."

Right?


For a minute there I actually thought this was a serious question.:)

2-1B
02-05-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
More likely is that both Vader and Palpatine have the same goal...to seduce Luke and destroy the other guy. Makes sense in a Sith kind of way.

I agree, and I like the idea of 2 bad guys fully allied only as long as it suits one's self.


Originally posted by stillakid
Hmm? Like many things in this saga (and many many more in the Prequels), this has to be left up to conjecture as there is nothing onscreen or implied off that answers the question fully.


I think it is there in the movies in the sense that Vader extends an offer to Luke in ESB, and Palpatine does the same thing in ROTJ.

A few other thoughts that came to mind:

-Vader was pretty intent on not getting "the Emperor's prize damaged" . . . was he serious or was he putting on a show all along, planning on an attempt to turn Luke and take out the Emperor?

-as for Palpatine, I don't think it's a given that he wanted Luke to automatically replace Vader. In his evil opportunistism, I fully believe that he wanted to see Vader and Son duel and then take the stronger of his two as an ally.

stillakid
02-05-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
In his evil opportunistism, I fully believe that he wanted to see Vader and Son duel and then take the stronger of his two as an ally.

That's the most likely scenario. To back up to ESB, Palpatine tells Vader that "there is a disturbance in the Force" and the implication is that "the son of Skywalker" should die. Vader suggests the alternative which leads somewhat immediately to Palpatine's above plot.

Yeah, that sounds good. :)

icatch9
02-05-2003, 12:11 PM
The missing piece to this puzzle will probally be answered in episode 3. I think the two sith lords rule is as soldid as an X Wing.

We don't know enough about the Sith. What we do know is that there are two at the end of Episode 2 and there are two ( one new one) at the begginng of Episode 4 (ANH). So, Clearly Dooku Dies and Anakin become Vader Dark Lord of the Sith. I think Anakin will kill Dooku to replace him as the second Sith Lord.

That being said, I think the Emporor thought that Luke would do the same thing, Kill Vader and thus replace him. I also think that Vader knew the Emporers plan and thus, would gladly take ruleing the galaxy as father and son over death.


A whole new ball of wax in the tern "Dark Jedi". Clearly this is an EU thing, but considering both Dooku and Vader/Anakin are former Jedi, can they ever be considered true Sith Lords. That is a question for the ages, and one that will drive eveyone mad :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: .

El Chuxter
02-05-2003, 01:09 PM
Maybe I "misspoke." I never doubted that Vader wanted to kill Palpatine and train Luke, but it's been bugging me of late why he'd tell Palpatine this? I mean, does Brutus say, "Caesar, don't make any plans for the Ides of March, because I'm going to stab you in the back?"

stillakid
02-05-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by icatch9
That is a question for the ages, and one that will drive eveyone mad :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: .

Hmm, I was pretty satisfied with the above conclusions and don't feel a bit crazed. Hmm.

JediTricks
02-05-2003, 09:18 PM
Why tell Palpy you are plotting to kill him and take over? To make him proud, of course! :D Let's face it, it's gonna be hard to keep secrets from your Sith master, he can read your thoughts and sense when something is afoot in your emotional state. Vader knows this, but Vader also knows that he must serve his master until he overthrows his master; since his master now wants a new powerful prize, if they succeed, both Sith know someone has to die to make room for sonny boy. Palpatine might be impressed by the initiative, but it really wouldn't change his plans much. This is the nature of the Sith and they both know it, Palpy is using Vader to get Luke, he even tells Luke as much during the end of the Vader/Luke DS battle.

Jargo
02-08-2003, 11:17 AM
Well vader tells palpy because that's what movie villains do, just like palpy tells luke all his evil plans re the rebels. It's exposition to inform the kids watching who are too thick to work it out for themselves. Camp soap opera stuff. I don't think george thought too much about it quite honestly. It's just a dramatic effect like everything else, padding until the next action sequence. :D

Jargo
02-08-2003, 11:18 AM
Golly that was trite. :rolleyes: :p

keith koth
02-10-2003, 06:34 PM
Vader's intention all along was to destroy the Emperor.

Remember the Jedi prophecy of the chosen one that will bring balance to the Force? Well, Anakin/Vader did exactly that. Sure, it took him long enough and many innocent people died at the hands of Vader before he sent the emperor to his ultimate demise (not unlike the U.S. military and their "collateral damage" theory).

However, perhaps Anakin/Vader knew deep down that "turning" to the dark side was the best option for defeating the Sith. We know that Vader must have had some good intentions "hidden up his sleeve", because as Luke said "I can sense the good in him"

stillakid
02-10-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Vader's intention all along was to destroy the Emperor.

Remember the Jedi prophecy of the chosen one that will bring balance to the Force? Well, Anakin/Vader did exactly that. Sure, it took him long enough and many innocent people died at the hands of Vader before he sent the emperor to his ultimate demise (not unlike the U.S. military and their "collateral damage" theory).

However, perhaps Anakin/Vader knew deep down that "turning" to the dark side was the best option for defeating the Sith. We know that Vader must have had some good intentions "hidden up his sleeve", because as Luke said "I can sense the good in him"

But we don't know what "bring balance to the Force" really means, so how can you conclude that Anakin/Vader "did" it? We don't know what "it" is. Depending on what "it" turns out to be, this nebulus "balance" that is discussed in the Prequels could be brought about by Luke, Leia, or Han for that matter. We really don't know based on screen events at this time.

You are also assuming that Anakin/Vader went into this duality with the intention of eventually siding with right. But the Prequels thus far (and will probably continue) have shown a bratty, whining, immature kid who will most likely "turn" evil merely because he doesn't get his way. Hardly the recipe for altruistic goals in the end.

The "good in him" is hard to explain based on this very unlikable character in Ep I and II. There doesn't as yet seem to be any motivation for that character to retain any sense of good throughout this saga. So where it comes from, I don't know.

keith koth
02-10-2003, 07:19 PM
In AOTC, when Padem and Anakin are in the grassy field on Naboo, Anakin expresses his feelings of how he believes that there should be someone (with good intentions, of course) that has ultimate authority to make decisions (since the senate can hardly ever agree on what is best for everyone's interests).

Perhaps this was a foreshadowing of Anakin's desire to "rule" the universe with what he would consider good intentions. Later on...perhaps in EIII, he finds himself with a potential opportunity to not only destroy the Sith, but also to place himself in a position to have that ultimate authority that he belives would be in the best interest of everyone.

To Anakin, it seems like a win, win situation.

To the audiance it seems like Anakin's darker side is once again showing through.

You are right stillakid...what is "balance"? We can only speculate, but my best guess is that "balance" refers to destroying the Sith...as that seems to be the objective of both trilogies.