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keith koth
02-05-2003, 03:11 PM
Top 10 Hints In Episode II That Padme is Evil

10. Palpatine suggests that Obi-Wan and Anakin Guard Padme’s life…If he wanted her dead, then why did he want Jedi to guard her? We all know how “fondly” Palpatine feels about Anakin, so why would he intentionally put Anakin in danger if he intends kill Padme and to use Anakin as part of his master plan?
9. Padme always narrowly escapes death/capture when a little extra effort would have finished her off as Palpatine has ordered.
8. If Palpatine wanted her dead so badly, then why did Count Dooku not allow her to be shot during the escape from the arena on Geonosis?
7. Padme antagonizes Anakin with a combination of condescending and loving attitudes towards him.
6. Padme encourages Anakin to defy the Jedi Council saying “You were told to protect me…and I am going to help Obi-Wan”
5. Padme leaves the senate to go “hide” from the assassin knowing that Jar Jar Binks would foul up (as usual) and allow the foundation for the creation of a Republic army to be created…also giving supreme power to Chancellor Palpatine.
4. “I think Count Dooku is behind this.” – Padme Amidala
3. “I only like 2 or 3 politicians, and I’m not sure about one of them.” – Anakin Skywalker
2. “I would be more worried about what she might do.” - Captain Typho
1. “She is a politician and is not to be trusted.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi

I'm sure no one will agree with me, but that is what I believe. The hints are everywhere through out the movie. Also refer back to Episode I, which also hints several times that Padme may be something less than pure. None the less, regardless of her true affiliation (be it good or evil) she certainly is the downfall of Anakin Skywalker.

icatch9
02-05-2003, 03:16 PM
Palpatine needs Padme to turn Anakin to the dark side. Nothing makes a man more angry than a woman. Anger leads to hate and so on. It's that simple.

Rogue II
02-05-2003, 03:20 PM
11. Padme is a woman, and women are evil. ;):D:crazed:


Originally posted by keith koth
Top 10 Hints In Episode II That Padme is Evil

10. Palpatine suggests that Obi-Wan and Anakin Guard Padme’s life…If he wanted her dead, then why did he want Jedi to guard her? We all know how “fondly” Palpatine feels about Anakin, so why would he intentionally put Anakin in danger if he intends kill Padme and to use Anakin as part of his master plan?


This is the only one I will argue. Remember what Anakin did after his mother died? He took out an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders. Palpatine could want Anakin to get close to Padme, marry her, etc. Then he could knock her off and somehow make the Jedi Council seem responsible. This will drive Anakin over the edge to the Dark Side.

Beast
02-05-2003, 03:21 PM
Yeah, Padme isn't evil. But Palpatine is using her being in danger and Anakin's feelings for her, to start corrupting him. He's one evil little matchmaker. :)


10. Palpatine suggests that Obi-Wan and Anakin Guard Padme’s life…If he wanted her dead, then why did he want Jedi to guard her? We all know how “fondly” Palpatine feels about Anakin, so why would he intentionally put Anakin in danger if he intends kill Padme and to use Anakin as part of his master plan?That's the point, he doesn't want her dead. She's just a part of his plan to corrupt Anakin. Put her in danger, Anakin rushes to the rescue. Padme has to go into hiding for her safety, which removes her from being there to stand against the Military Creation Act.

9. Padme always narrowly escapes death/capture when a little extra effort would have finished her off as Palpatine has ordered.
See the answer to #8, but Palpatine never wanted her dead. He just wanted her out of the way. And using her to help corrupt Anakin is a masterful move. He's the puppetmaster here, controling everyone from behind the scenes.

8. If Palpatine wanted her dead so badly, then why did Count Dooku not allow her to be shot during the escape from the arena on Geonosis?
He never wanted her dead. The assassination attempts were just to get Padme and Anakin together. That's why once the threat was established, there isn't another attempt on her. Basically, Zam was hired because they knew that she would fail. :)

7. Padme antagonizes Anakin with a combination of condescending and loving attitudes towards him.
That's just how she is. She only remembers him as the sad little boy of 10. And by treating him that way, she also distances herself from the feelings of love she's feeling for him. She's trying to convince herself, that she doesn't love him. :)

6. Padme encourages Anakin to defy the Jedi Council saying “You were told to protect me…and I am going to help Obi-Wan”
She's never been one to sit back and not take action when things start going bad. She's not doing it to corrupt him, she just has a attitude that if you want somthing done, you have to do it yourself.

5. Padme leaves the senate to go “hide” from the assassin knowing that Jar Jar Binks would foul up (as usual) and allow the foundation for the creation of a Republic army to be created…also giving supreme power to Chancellor Palpatine.
All part of Palpatine's plot. Jar Jar represents Padme in the Senate while she's in hiding. Padme was against the Military Creation Act. Get her out of the way, and then work on Jar Jar's innocent sensibilities. Palpatine is playing everyone perfectly at this minute. He makes it clear that they need a Senator to suggest this, that has no ties to either side. Who is a neutral voice in the Senate. He's put everyone in check, now he just has to make the final move for checkmate.

4. “I think Count Dooku is behind this.” – Padme AmidalaHe's the head of the Sepratists, the people that are working against the Republic. Why wouldn't she suspect him from being behind this?

3. “I only like 2 or 3 politicians, and I’m not sure about one of them.” – Anakin Skywalker
He's not sure how to really feel about Padme. He knows that the code forbids him to really be with her. But his raging hormones and the fact he's loved her since he was 10 is confusing him. So he's not sure whether to think of her as a friend, or somone he loves.

2. “I would be more worried about what she might do.” - Captain Typho
Typho knows that Padme is not happy having to hide away, while such important things are underway in the senate. So while Anakin's duty is to keep her safe and on Naboo, Padme's headstrong and believes her duty is to take care of things herself.

1. “She is a politician and is not to be trusted.” – Obi-Wan Kenobi
That was only a lead in to the discussion of Palpatine, so we could see how Anakin holds him in such high regard. Yet Obi-Wan warns him even about Palpatine. If only Anakin would listen.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
02-05-2003, 03:26 PM
That is the simple explanation icatch9.

However, the prequal triology needs a twist, such as the infamous "Luke, I am your father."- Darth Vader

It seems to me that this would tie in perfectly...Padme Amidala "The Sith Witch."
:eek:

keith koth
02-05-2003, 04:08 PM
[i]Palpatine is playing everyone perfectly at this minute. [/B]

Exactly...including you JarJar!

Why is so unbelievable that there will be a major plot twist? After A New Hope, who would have thought that Vader was Luke's father? The Prequal Triology will be less than supurb without a major plot twist...and this theory would certainly fill that void!

You can disagree with my opinion, but did you really feel as though you needed to write a thesis to rebutt my theory? You could write all day, but it is still nothing more than your opinion (which you are certainly entitled to...just as I am).

We'll see who gets the last laugh (or at least who was right) as soon as EIII hits the theaters.

Untill then, enjoy your perfect world where everyone is who they seem to be and plot twists are just rumors not to be belived.:crazed:

Beast
02-05-2003, 04:18 PM
I didn't say there wouldn't be a plot twist. But it's going to center upon Palpatine revealing himself and Anakin's fall. Padme isn't Evil or a Sith Witch, why would Leia remember her as sad. If she was in on Palpatine's plot, and was evil she wouldn't have hidden herself away with Leia. If she was evil her and Anakin/Vader could have stayed together as Sith Bride and Groom. :p :)

I do disagree with your opinion, and hardly wrote a thesis. This is a discussion board. If you didn't want someone posting and disputing your opinions, then your in the wrong place my friend. If you didn't want discussion that doesn't see your ideas as plausible, you could always start up a website for your ideas.

A discussion board breeds discussion, that's why it's here. If it was just a statements/idea board then we shouldn't be able to reply to each other. If you don't like my opinion of your "proof" then don't read it. But knowing what we know of the OT, does give us answers to the if certain charecters are good or bad. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
02-05-2003, 04:31 PM
"Padme isn't Evil or a Sith Witch, why would Leia remember her as sad." - JarJarBinks

When was it revealed tha Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia? I must have missed that. :eek:

Is it impossible for Anakin to father the twins (Luke & Leia) with anyone other than Padme?:crazed: It seems plausible to me.

However, I must appologize. You are right, this is a discussion fourm and you are fully entitled to display your opinion, just as I have done. All of the points you make are certainly valid, but the story would be more interesting to me if the plot twists in the direction I believe it will.

El Chuxter
02-05-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
When was it revealed tha Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia? I must have missed that. :eek:

Would you like a list? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but it's a given fact that Padm&eacute is the mother of the twins. Lucas has said it, McCallum's said it, Natalie Portman's said it, Del Rey's said it, Hasbro's said it. You can believe she's evil if you want, but you gotta accept that she's Luke's mommy. :)

Beast
02-05-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
When was it revealed tha Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia? I must have missed that. :eek:

Is it impossible for Anakin to father the twins (Luke & Leia) with anyone other than Padme?:crazed: It seems plausible to me.
Please tell me you're joking? It's been public knowledge since E1 that Padme would be the future mother of Luke and Leia. Anakin marrying Padme at the end of E2 should have made that blindingly obvious. Lucas, Portman, everyone has stated as such. Portman's even confirmed that her charecter will be with children in E3. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
02-05-2003, 04:49 PM
JarJarBinks,

If it is a given that Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia, then it is given that Anakin is Vader and that Palpatine is the Emperor. Therefore, in your scenario, where is the plot twist?

stillakid
02-05-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Top 10 Hints In Episode II That Padme is Evil


It's always a chick, isn't it? ;)

No really. I'm not about to agree that she's "evil" or anything as there really isn't anything realistic to corroberate that assertion. However, I do offer the conjecture that Anakin's ultimate downfall (at least the semi valid reason for him to go over the edge), will be because he (falsely) will believe that she and Obi Wan have some side action going on. George has already proven that he likes to, uh, borrow from mythology and other literatary styles, so this time he may plan to set up the ol' love triangle bit. Anakin goes off the deep end, gets into a fight with his best bud over the chick, and we see who is left standing. Classic, simple, to the point. Just as Star Wars should be. :) It's always about a chick. Always.

mini-rock
02-06-2003, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
JarJarBinks,

If it is a given that Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia, then it is given that Anakin is Vader and that Palpatine is the Emperor. Therefore, in your scenario, where is the plot twist?

So would a plot twist be a plot twist if we knew what the plot twist was? Wait till EP3.

BTW, I'm typing this with a green headband on my head b/c my 2 year old daughter is playing beauty shop with me.:D

Beast
02-06-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
BTW, I'm typing this with a green headband on my head b/c my 2 year old daughter is playing beauty shop with me.:D
You owe us a picture now, when she's done. You can't just drop that bombshell in a thread and then keep us in suspense. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-06-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
You owe us a picture now, when she's done. You can't just drop that bombshell in a thread and then keep us in suspense. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

ROTFL!:D

stillakid
02-06-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
JarJarBinks,

If it is a given that Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia, then it is given that Anakin is Vader and that Palpatine is the Emperor. Therefore, in your scenario, where is the plot twist?

This is EXACTLY why myself and others have advocated NOT revealing Anakin to be Darth Vader prior to The Empire Strikes Back. If the saga is meant to be viewed in Episode order and that little nugget is given away in the Prequels, then you are absolutely positively 100% correct. There is no plot twist left and the Original Trilogy is left to be just a non-dramatic chronicle of events leading to the Empire's destruction.

However, if Lucas does not reveal Vader's secret identity too soon, then the "plot twist" can potentially remain. I say "potentially" because I think that he's already blown his wad already in TPM and AOTC. Wayyyy too much foreshadowing has been done to this point to successfully save the saga. Therefore the only true way to watch these six films in the future and preserve any sense of drama will be to see them in order of production.

keith koth
02-06-2003, 11:26 AM
Although they are directly connected, I view the two trilogys as stand alone units. Otherwise, it should really be called a hexilogy (is that the correct term for a 6 movie series?) not a triology.

As a stand alone "Trilogy" the prequals should contain all of the elements that make up a great story...thus, there must be a plot twist that is not directly related to the original trilogy.

Am I flawed in my reasoning?

stillakid
02-06-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Although they are directly connected, I view the two trilogys as stand alone units. Otherwise, it should really be called a hexilogy (is that the correct term for a 6 movie series?) not a triology.

As a stand alone "Trilogy" the prequals should contain all of the elements that make up a great story...thus, there must be a plot twist that is not directly related to the original trilogy.

Am I flawed in my reasoning?

Interesting conundrum. I believe that George intends/intended these two individual trilogies to really be considered as one total story and not as two individual trilogies. Follow that? So, with that in mind, I'd have to say that no, the "prequel trilogy" has no requirement to have it's own "plot twist" to fulfill. As that is most likely his intention, then I wouldn't expect there to be any new major revelations forthcoming from Episodes I, II, or III.

HOWEVER, the reality is that this "prequel trilogy" is significantly different from the "original trilogy" in tone, plot, and continuity information such that significant alterations to Episodes IV, V, and VI would have to be made in order to create that seamless 6 part series that George most likely intends/intended to create. Therefore, unless said alterations to the "original trilogy" are made, then what you suggest could be considered as true.

Although, I will suggest that because of the unique nature of the motion picture feature medium in this day and age, a filmmaker has a certain responsibility to create a self-contained story with each and every film that is released. But we've seen that this isn't always a requirement as the "open-ended" storyline has worked before with film series like Back to the Future, to some extent Alien, to a great extent Lord of the Rings, and with Episodes V and VI of Star Wars itself. The success or failure of such an undertaking relies heavily on how faithful the filmmaker(s) is with the continuity that runs throughout the multi-film series. One mis-step and the house of cards can come crumbling down.

keith koth
02-06-2003, 02:19 PM
stillakid,

You make a very valid point.

However, I still have to wonder why then did George decide to do the prequal trilogy if there is no major revelations presented in the story? I suppose it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

If that is the case, then what would keep him from making another prequal trilogy...explaining how the sith reemerged after a 1000 years...or perhaps a postqual trilogy that details the ultimate fate of Luke, Leia, Han, etc. He could certainly make more money off another trilogy than any other movie he could put in front of an audiance.

Although I am glad GL decided to make the prequal triology, I believe the original trilogy was a stand alone work and nothing new is gained from the story by producing the prequals. Who really cares about the back story (i.e., who came from where, who is good, who is evil, etc.).

Ultimately, in my opinion, there must be a major plot twist in the prequal trilogy, or else the production of E's I, II, and III are pointless.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I always root for the underdog.
I always take the loosing side of an argument and try to make it a winning argument.
I have a combative, conflicting personality.
However, it is all in fun and always makes for interesting discussion.

Peace out!

stillakid
02-06-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
stillakid,

You make a very valid point.

However, I still have to wonder why then did George decide to do the prequal trilogy if there is no major revelations presented in the story? I suppose it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Well, that about hits the nail on the head. If he's not going to do it "right," why do it at all? I've been wondering the same thing.

But it's important to remember two things:

1. that he probably intends this to not be two separate trilogies, rather one 6 part series, and

2. he probably does believe that he's doing it all correctly.

So, with that in mind, it makes total sense that he'd continue to "tell" this story. We know (or so we've been told in the past) that George began telling this large story from the middle. He felt apparently that the story (as it stood in ANH) was more interesting and had more potential to attract a wide audience than if he had started at Episode I. Fair enough. There's no telling if he would have been right, as it's probably safe to assume that an Episode I produced in 1975 would have been far different than the one we actually witnessed. But assuming that Episode I in any incarnation would have had less popular appeal on it's own, it's safe to agree with George's assessment that Episode IV was a good place to start...with the intention of returning to the previous episodes to finish what he had begun (in the middle). A very roundabout way of telling a story, but that's the problem with needing a few million bucks per episode.

I don't think it was about the money at all for him. He doesn't need it. It is about finishing the story that he began telling 25 odd years ago.


Originally posted by keith koth

If that is the case, then what would keep him from making another prequal trilogy...explaining how the sith reemerged after a 1000 years...or perhaps a postqual trilogy that details the ultimate fate of Luke, Leia, Han, etc. He could certainly make more money off another trilogy than any other movie he could put in front of an audiance.
Nothing would stop him, except for time, desire, etc. But again, this guy is like #46 on the richest people in the world list. He doesn't need the money. As poor as his execution is, I think that he genuinely is out to just complete the story that he set out to tell.


Originally posted by keith koth

Although I am glad GL decided to make the prequal triology, I believe the original trilogy was a stand alone work and nothing new is gained from the story by producing the prequals. Who really cares about the back story (i.e., who came from where, who is good, who is evil, etc.).
We know that ANH was completed as a stand-alone film. With it's success, George gained the money and the independence to continue the story. He had the freedom to make an open-ended "sequel" which required another chapter of the story to tie up the loose ends. Only success out of the gate will give someone that kind of freedom.

Because of the way the Original Trilogy began, with a stand-alone film, certainly there is no overriding necessity to go back to "explain it all." Had he done it "right," then the individual stories would have been compelling enough on their own to not have people asking the questions that you do. Instead of merely giving backstory on the characters and the situations, the sense of drama could have easily been written as more than just big-budget Expanded Universe tales. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that approach, but the divergent path he's taking has traditionally been left up to the novels, comic books, and video games in which there is a great following. But only among the "fans." The features have to attract a large general audience if they are to make their money back and then some.

Some will argue that the Prequels have done well thus far. True enough, but I submit that the reasons are misleading. TPM did very well only because of the initial success of the OT and a certain sense of nostalgia amongst the "non-hardcore fan" audience. Post-first viewing of Episode I, all but the biggest fans didn't return to see it again.

AOTC's success came out of, again, the hard-core fans seeing it multiple times plus the straggelers who sought to give Lucas another chance. I personally know plenty of people who didn't even bother going to this one because they felt that Lucas had flushed the saga down the toilet with Episode I...end quote. While the fx were pretty, in time the reality of the thin story shown through and people have become indifferent about the whole thing.

Now, with Episode III, I'm sure we'll see strong business again, but only because people will give him "one last chance" to tie it all up. But he's already lost huge chunks of his audience that will never come back. Even if he did continue with a Post-Trilogy, the audience would continue to slip until it was only the hardcore fanbase.


Originally posted by keith koth
Ultimately, in my opinion, there must be a major plot twist in the prequal trilogy, or else the production of E's I, II, and III are pointless Maybe there will be, maybe not. I however think that it's success (overall) depends upon it's ability to tie in as seamlessly as possible with the OT, without divulging any of the secrets while staying true to the continuity. That means, no Darth Vader prancing about, no Skywalker kids being taken to Tatooine or Alderaan, and some kind of remarkable explanation for why Qui Gon does everything that Obi Wan is supposed to and why Midichlorians are not mentioned once in the OT. If George can manage all that, then it's possible that his SAGA will be a success.

But I'm not holding my breath. :)

keith koth
02-06-2003, 05:43 PM
I don't think it was about the money at all for him. He doesn't need it. It is about finishing the story that he began telling 25 odd years ago.


If it is truly about finishing the story he began telling 25 odd years ago, then should we expect to see a third trilogy?

In my opinion, I think that he should have finished the story rather than going back in time to present the prequal trilogy.

Perhaps GL is waiting for CGI technology to reach a point that he can recreate all of the actors from the original trilogy and then he will continue with the final trilogy.

I'll cross my fingers and hope!

stillakid
02-06-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
If it is truly about finishing the story he began telling 25 odd years ago, then should we expect to see a third trilogy?



Well, now he's claiming that he never said that. What can you do :rolleyes: ?

Darth Trymybestus
02-07-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
When was it revealed tha Padme is the mother of Luke and Leia? I must have missed that. :eek:

She's also listed as Padme Amidala Skywalker on IMDB's Episode III page. :)

The 'Xir
02-08-2003, 05:07 PM
I know this is all kinda of meant in a joking way, but keith might be on to something! Not that I actually think that padme will become like a dark jedi or something like that in epIII, but along the lines of what still-a-kid alluded to. The fact that George is on this big Judeo-Christian thing with these new movies, Padme could be represented as the 'Pandora' or 'Eve' of the prequels! Tempting Anakin to take a bite of the apple(forbidden fruit)!

mabudonicus
02-10-2003, 08:56 AM
Yeah, I think she's pretty much just a pawn, in the tradition of Eve or Pandora, too, I'm not sure she's in the know about what exactly palps is doing... who knows, though, with Lucas....

Oh, and just to touch on/expand something I think JJB said on page 2,
Zam wasn't necessarily hired cos they knew she would fail, rather she was hired because they knew they had to have a corpse with a kamino dart in it to start the ball rolling, I don't think the attempt on padme's life was anything more than a ruse in that case

stillakid
02-10-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by mabudon
Yeah, I think she's pretty much just a pawn, in the tradition of Eve or Pandora, too, I'm not sure she's in the know about what exactly palps is doing... who knows, though, with Lucas....

Oh, and just to touch on/expand something I think JJB said on page 2,
Zam wasn't necessarily hired cos they knew she would fail, rather she was hired because they knew they had to have a corpse with a kamino dart in it to start the ball rolling, I don't think the attempt on padme's life was anything more than a ruse in that case

That theory only works if Palpatine knew ahead of time that some Jedi would wind up captured on Geonosis and that someone in the Jedi Order would go grab some of the Clones to help save them. Pretty convoluted and unlikely. I started this thread, Palpatine's Plan Boiled Down (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10175&highlight=palpatine+plan+boiled+down) to discuss just this problem. We can surmise that Palpatine put in an order for a clone army. We also know that he's setting the "separatists" up for a fall. But the connecting piece of the puzzle which would "get the ball rolling" as you say isn't clear. It seems as though Palpatine just got super-lucky that all the tumblers fell into place when and how they did. Another story "convenience"? Maybe, but I hope not. It's okay to have minor A to B conveniences to keep the plot moving, but this is a big deal in terms of how the story unfolds.

keith koth
02-12-2003, 11:50 AM
Last night I decided to watch good ole Episode I. As I was watching it, I was reminded of something I noticed long ago. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan had no Idea that Padme was the Queen of Naboo.

Just before the pod race (discussing Qui-Gon's willingness to allow Anakin to race):

Padme: "The Queen would not approve"
Qui-Gon: "The Queen trusts my judgement young handmaiden"
Padme: "You assume too much"

Later, back on Naboo, when Padme reveals herself to be the Queen to Boss Nass; Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan look at eachother as if to say: I can't believe she slipped that past us.

Now then, how did Padme manage to hide that fact from them? Especially since Qui-Gon is so deeply involved with the "living force".

Perhaps Amidala clouded their judgement with her evil powers!

Still makes sense to me. :D

Lord Malakite
02-12-2003, 12:05 PM
Or it could be the fact that the Jedi powers are beginning to wane, as Yoda stated in Episode II.

stillakid
02-12-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Last night I decided to watch good ole Episode I. As I was watching it, I was reminded of something I noticed long ago. Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan had no Idea that Padme was the Queen of Naboo.

Just before the pod race (discussing Qui-Gon's willingness to allow Anakin to race):

Padme: "The Queen would not approve"
Qui-Gon: "The Queen trusts my judgement young handmaiden"
Padme: "You assume too much"

Later, back on Naboo, when Padme reveals herself to be the Queen to Boss Nass; Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan look at eachother as if to say: I can't believe she slipped that past us.

Now then, how did Padme manage to hide that fact from them? Especially since Qui-Gon is so deeply involved with the "living force".

Perhaps Amidala clouded their judgement with her evil powers!

Still makes sense to me. :D

I think that everyone is placing their own assumptions upon what the capabilities of Jedi Powers are. You're assuming in this situation that Jedi Powers have the ability to be an automatic truth serum. A long while ago, I recall seeing someone believing that the Emperor could just use the Force to steer the attacking rebel ships into the walls of the inside of the Death Star to avoid catastrophe.

Truth is, we have no idea how much "help" the Force can give it's user. We know that Vader could "feel" Old Ben's presence when they were about within 50 yards of one another. We also know that Luke could "see" into the near future, within a week or so we presume. We've also seen various Jedi use telekinetic power to move stuff around and try to pick up chicks. But that's the extent of it. We haven't seen any of them "read minds." In fact, if that was possible, Vader wouldn't have needed the "mind probe" for Leia.

I don't have all the answers, but I'm merely suggesting that the Force isn't some all purpose Swiss Army knife that has the power to do everything.

keith koth
02-12-2003, 12:50 PM
We haven't seen any of them "read minds." In fact, if that was possible, Vader wouldn't have needed the "mind probe" for Leia.

Yoda read Anikin's mind in Episode I in reference to Anakin's "fears" about his mother. (Fear leads to anger...)

Vader read Luke's mind in ROTJ: "A sister"

If they can't read minds, then why did Obi-Wan's ghost tell Luke to bury his feelings deep? (He knew that Vader could read his mind)

The use of the mind probe is a bit puzzling, but it seems to break away from the continuity of the stroy more so than mind reading does. Besides, as we know, Leia has Jedi traits (Luke: "My father had it, I have it...and my sister has it") Perhaps she was able to bury the information Vader was seeking so much that a mind probe was needed.

scruffziller
02-12-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
why would Leia remember her as sad.

Perhaps she realizes her wrong doing at the end and has a change of heart, like Darth Vader.:confused:

stillakid
02-12-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Yoda read Anikin's mind in Episode I in reference to Anakin's "fears" about his mother. (Fear leads to anger...) He didn't "read his mind." He "sensed" that Anakin was afraid and then made an assumption that it was his mother. Yoda didn't do anything that any third-rate school psychologist could have done.


Originally posted by keith koth
Vader read Luke's mind in ROTJ: "A sister" Hmm? Touche! I think you got me there...I shall meditate on this one.


Originally posted by keith koth
If they can't read minds, then why did Obi-Wan's ghost tell Luke to bury his feelings deep? (He knew that Vader could read his mind) I don't think that this is what Spirit Ben was getting at. It wasn't out of direct fear that someone might read his mind. It was because Luke's "love" and care for his friends and family could in the end, be used as psychological ammunition by the bad guys, even in the most general sense. Even if Vader never found out about the sister, Luke would only have been able to hide there for a short time before having to decide whether to die uselessly or to continue the fight for the benefit of the cause.


Originally posted by keith koth
The use of the mind probe is a bit puzzling, but it seems to break away from the continuity of the stroy more so than mind reading does. Besides, as we know, Leia has Jedi traits (Luke: "My father had it, I have it...and my sister has it") Perhaps she was able to bury the information Vader was seeking so much that a mind probe was needed.
Your conclusion here contradicts what I've seen others claim about lil' Anakin on Tatooine. Here was little kid apparently chock full o' Midichlorians who couldn't really do anything useful with the Force because he hadn't been formally trained yet. If that reasoning is true, then Leia couldn't have pulled off that kind of "burying" either.

But, you're right, the "mind probe" in ANH and the "sister" thing in ROTJ directly contradict one another. There appears to be no consistency for what constitutes the boundries of what the Force is capable of.

Lord Malakite
02-12-2003, 02:47 PM
Perhaps the ability to read minds results from the emotional state of the person at the time. Yoda read Anakin's mind while he was still emotionally upset from leaving his mom/home in Episode I. Yoda read Anakin's mind in Episode II after he lost his mother. Vader, and Palpatine partially, was able to read Luke's mind in ROTJ after recently learning that he had a sister, having feelings of not wanting to destroy his father, and fearing the death of his closest friends and only sibling at the hands of the Empire. This would also explain why Luke could see into future in ESB. He was emotionally tied to his friends and read them from their emotional vulnerability. Then Yoda was able to see the vision too because of Luke's emotional state. Vader wasn't able to read Leia's mind in ANH though because she wasn't emotionally vulnerable at the time. She didn't know Vader was her father, and while she supported the Rebellion, she wasn't personally attatched to anyone in the Rebellion. So Vader used an Interrigation Droid. As for not reading Leia's mind when Alderraan was destroyed, which would have left her in an emotional state. I believe Vader did read her mind to confirm that she had lied about Dantooine, but decided not tell Tarkin in order prove his point that she wouldn't readily betray the Rebels.

Beast
02-12-2003, 02:59 PM
Good point about the emotional states, Lord Malakite. Like Anakin's emotional slaughter of the tusken camp was picked up by Yoda even as far away as Coruscant. And Obi-Wan picking up the pain and death of all those people on Alderaan. And Vader being able to pick up Leia being Luke's sister right after taunting him about his friends. Hmmm, works out pretty well. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
02-12-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Lord_Malakite
Perhaps the ability to read minds results from the emotional state of the person at the time. Yoda read Anakin's mind while he was still emotionally upset from leaving his mom/home in Episode I. Yoda read Anakin's mind in Episode II after he lost his mother. Vader, and Palpatine partially, was able to read Luke's mind in ROTJ after recently learning that he had a sister, having feelings of not wanting to destroy his father, and fearing the death of his closest friends and only sibling at the hands of the Empire. This would also explain why Luke could see into future in ESB. He was emotionally tied to his friends and read them from their emotional vulnerability. Then Yoda was able to see the vision too because of Luke's emotional state. Vader wasn't able to read Leia's mind in ANH though because she wasn't emotionally vulnerable at the time. She didn't know Vader was her father, and while she supported the Rebellion, she wasn't personally attatched to anyone in the Rebellion. So Vader used an Interrigation Droid. As for not reading Leia's mind when Alderraan was destroyed, which would have left her in an emotional state. I believe Vader did read her mind to confirm that she had lied about Dantooine, but decided not tell Tarkin in order prove his point that she wouldn't readily betray the Rebels.

I still don't think that it's a mind reading trick. With the beautiful explanation about the nature of the Force from Yoda in ESB (thank you Lawrence Kasdan), one can get the sense that the Force resembles the water in a large pond. "Emotions" and "emotional outbursts" could be considered to be rocks or stones. The bigger the "pain" or "feeling," the bigger the disturbance in the Force. Ben says it just like that in ANH. He wasn't "reading" a million minds as they were disintegrating. He "felt that something terrible" had happened. That much "anguish" all at once from the same place sent huge waves through the fabric of the Force far and wide. Similarly, Ben's relatively tiny blip on the water sent out just small ripples, barely perceptable, but enough so that when he got within spitting distance of Vader, he was noticed.

Remember, the Force "surrounds us, penetrates us." All living things are part of it. It exists between all objects everywhere. It's not a magic potion, rather, it's an "energy field" that when tapped into, allows the user to move objects that are connected by the "force material" (whatever it is) between them. But it's more than that. Much like the theory of relativity, there is an element of "time" that the Force carries with it, which is what enables Luke to "feel" the pain of his friends even before it occurs. The "energy" that emanates from the "city in the clouds" is such a strong part of that future, that it too is attached to, or impressed upon, Luke's "vision."

But specific information crawling through someone's brain doesn't fall into this realm. Names and dates and places in a person's thoughts are nebulus. They have no structure, no "emotion," no true "presence" that can connect to the Force. But the emotion that a piece of information can drum up inside a person does makes waves upon the waters of the Force, much like a stone dropped into the pond. Why the person drops the stone cannot be known by the Force, but that the stone exists is known. Yoda didn't know what Anakin was up to, but he could sense the pain. Vader didn't know Ben was in the Falcon for sure, but he could sense Ben's particular "disturbance." Yoda couldn't really read lil' Ani's mind to know that he was afraid to be away from his mother. But he could "sense" the emotion of fear in him and then deduce the cause.

Is this making sense? It gets a little heady to think of this stuff.

This "theory" carries across all the examples in the saga...except for one: Vader figuring out that Luke has a twin sister. The one anomaly in the whole thing. I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because of this one example, so I'll pick up the rationalization baton and try to explain it away. :) It's possible that Luke's emotions at that moment were so strong and so tied to trying to not think about Leia, that he of course could do nothing else but think about her. Just like the example of Cloud City, his emotions of distress, fear, and hatred were so powerfully tied to Leia, that her "image" (wrong word) was impressed into the emotional waves that he was sending out. HOWEVER, the next point goes to disprove the mind-reading portion of the discussion. IF Vader had really read Luke's mind in order to figure out that he had a twin sister, it would logically follow that he would have known her to be Princess Leia. One would then logically assume that he would have had a different reaction or at the very least said her name. But we are just left with the very distinct impression that all he knew at that moment was that Luke had a twin sister. Therefore, it is highly improbable that the Force allows anyone to read minds.

All of this is why Vader needed a droid to torture the information out of Leia. What's cool about that classic sequence is that, pre-Midichlorians, we can safely assume that it's her internal fortitude, personal resolve, and committment to the cause that keeps her from ratting out the Rebellion. But now, because she's chock full o' Midichlorian's too, it just opens up that can of worms for people to hand the credit of her resistance over to the Force.

This is just another reason why this whole concept of biologically enhanced Force ability ruins the original vision of who these characters are supposed to be. He's taking away their own character strengths and weaknesses in favor of a biological excuse for one thing or another. I don't think that George really sat down and thought this whole thing through before haphazardly jotting down that destructive word: midichlorian.

keith koth
02-12-2003, 08:33 PM
IF Vader had really read Luke's mind in order to figure out that he had a twin sister, it would logically follow that he would have known her to be Princess Leia. One would then logically assume that he would have had a different reaction or at the very least said her name. But we are just left with the very distinct impression that all he knew at that moment was that Luke had a twin sister.

Darth Vader: "A Sister...."

Next Line by Vader: "If you will not join us...perhaps SHE will"

Then they begin fighting again.

If Vader didn't know the twin sister was Princes Leia, then would it not have been beneficial to toture the info out of Luke before killing him?

There was no reason for Vader to say Leia out loud...because Vader read Luke's mind and the Emperor in turn read Vader's mind. That is why Vader never even asks Luke who his twin sister is despite being on his death bed.

Also,

Vader: "Owi-Wan was wise to hide her from me"

How Vader know Obi-wan had hidden Leia as a young child? (unless he read that from Luke's mind)

He couldn't have read it from Obi-Wan's mind during their confrontation in ANH, otherwise he would have known about both Luke and Leia both.

stillakid
02-12-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Darth Vader: "A Sister...."

Next Line by Vader: "If you will not join us...perhaps SHE will"

Then they begin fighting again.

If Vader didn't know the twin sister was Princes Leia, then would it not have been beneficial to toture the info out of Luke before killing him?
No. For two reasons. The first is that this "sister" really wasn't his goal at all. He was prodding Luke psychologically to get him to react and "turn" to the darkside. This is how it works. Watch the Prequels as Palpatine slowly massages young Anakin at every turn. It's a subtle thing to seduce someone to become evil.

Second, if he did end up having to kill Luke in the end, the sister's identity wouldn't be important right then. He had the belief, along with the Emperor, that the Rebellion was about to be crushed. Even if "she" survived, in time, her influence and presence would make itself known and he could then go after her.


Originally posted by keith koth
There was no reason for Vader to say Leia out loud...because Vader read Luke's mind and the Emperor in turn read Vader's mind. That is why Vader never even asks Luke who his twin sister is despite being on his death bed.
I'm not quite sure why you keep suggesting the Emperor "then read Vader's mind." Nothing Palpatine does suggests such a thing at all.

As far as Dying Anakin never asking the identity of the sister, it just wasn't important to him. This moment...heck, this whole conflict was between father and son. Anakin and Luke for that matter had no real investment made in the relationship with daughter/sister yet. It just wasn't about anyone else but them.

In addition, if Dying Anakin did know it was Leia, then we again should have expected to hear him say not only "tell your sister you were right" but also "tell her that I'm sorry for what I did to her." He clearly had no clue of the identity of his daughter.



Originally posted by keith koth
Also,

Vader: "Owi-Wan was wise to hide her from me"

How Vader know Obi-wan had hidden Leia as a young child? (unless he read that from Luke's mind)
Until we see for certain how things transpire in Episode III, we can only guess. But it's probably pretty safe to say that Anakin doesn't (or shouldn't) even know that Padme is pregnant. In the (unfortunate) event that Anakin does know that she is pregnant, he will most likely only think that she is giving birth to one child, not two. So when the galaxy goes to hell in a handbasket, Padme is whisked away so that Anakin/Vader can't find her or the child. He can then easily figure out that Obi Wan or someone else hid his kid from him. This is why the idea of a sister is such a surprise to him in ROTJ. He really had no idea until that moment. No mind-reading necessary.



Originally posted by keith koth
He couldn't have read it from Obi-Wan's mind during their confrontation in ANH, otherwise he would have known about both Luke and Leia both.
Exactly, which is another reason why mind reading just makes absolutely no sense in the Star Wars galaxy. :) To allow it in one instance opens up a major can o' worms in which we start wondering why so and so Jedi didn't figure out so and so plan if he could have just read so and so's mind. It's too silly and doesn't have to be that way anyhow.

The 'Xir
02-12-2003, 10:29 PM
Hey Still-a-Kid has a very clear understanding of the Force, you guys should take in what he's saying! That's good to see too, 'cause I get from alot of you that you don't always truely understand what George is getting at or trying to portray in these movies! (and I don't mean you guys on this thread necessarily but Fans in general!)

The only thing that puzzles me is that with such an understanding of the force, it suprises me S-a-K, that you don't except the midichorians more? Or atleast it sounds as if you don't like the Idea of them! But I've said this a gazillion times, The Midichlorians are just a "vehicle" to tap into the Force, they themselves are not the Force, so the mysticism is not lost. So based on Qui-Gon's explanation, "Without the Midichlorians life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force"; he's just saying that if we didn't have Midichlorians in our bodies, then we wouldn't be able to tap into the force, but the Force itself would still exist! So as I said the Mysticism wouldn't be lost, just the ability to attune oneself. And as stated in Anakins case the more you have the better you can tune-in or focus the Force!
Actually for someone with few or no Midichlorians I'm sure it would depend on blind faith like many Repulicans do. They know of it but are "blind" to it's existence unlike Han comments in ANH which have no Faith what-so-ever, "Ehh, it's all a bunch of simple tricks and non-sense if you ask me." It's the Lack of faith, where the mysticism is lost!

stillakid
02-13-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Hey Still-a-Kid has a very clear understanding of the Force, you guys should take in what he's saying! That's good to see too, 'cause I get from alot of you that you don't always truely understand what George is getting at or trying to portray in these movies! (and I don't mean you guys on this thread necessarily but Fans in general!)

The only thing that puzzles me is that with such an understanding of the force, it suprises me S-a-K, that you don't except the midichorians more? Or atleast it sounds as if you don't like the Idea of them! But I've said this a gazillion times, The Midichlorians are just a "vehicle" to tap into the Force, they themselves are not the Force, so the mysticism is not lost. So based on Qui-Gon's explanation, "Without the Midichlorians life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force"; he's just saying that if we didn't have Midichlorians in our bodies, then we wouldn't be able to tap into the force, but the Force itself would still exist! So as I said the Mysticism wouldn't be lost, just the ability to attune oneself. And as stated in Anakins case the more you have the better you can tune-in or focus the Force!
Actually for someone with few or no Midichlorians I'm sure it would depend on blind faith like many Repulicans do. They know of it but are "blind" to it's existence unlike Han comments in ANH which have no Faith what-so-ever, "Ehh, it's all a bunch of simple tricks and non-sense if you ask me." It's the Lack of faith, where the mysticism is lost!

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the role that Midi's play as a bridge between sentient beings and the Force. That's all well and good.

What doesn't work for me is the way this biological influence alters the character arcs of our heros unnecessarily. Pre-Midi's, we could empathize with Luke. Post-Midis we can only sympathize with him. Does that make sense? Before, we could relate to this heroic character...he was just a normal kid who accomplished something great because of his own internal strength, fortitude, and belief in himself. Now, it's only because he was biologically "blessed". He is no longer a normal human that we can relate to. He is now a SUPERHUMAN with abilities we can never hope to emulate. This has been brought up a million times before, but it's the Batman/Superman syndrome. Anyone of us could be Batman, so long as we had the will, desire, and cash. But never in a billion years could any one of us become Superman because of his alien abilities et al. Same with Luke now.

I'm not sure about this business about life not being able to exist without Midichlorians. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me. But check this out: Luke managed just fine with no knowledge of Midichlorians at all. How do you explain that? With just a little psycho-babble nudging from Old Ben, Luke felt the Force "flowing through" him. He reached out and trusted his feelings. Crazy huh? And not a word of Midi's to him at all. Which means that there is no prerequisite knowledge of Midi's necessary to get in touch with the Force. Whether they are there or not seems to matter none when it comes to manipulating the Force in one way or another.

Which leads back to the other story element that they do impact which is how we are to perceive these characters. Are we to empathize with them or just passively watch what they do as they prance from one scene to the next?

The fact is, Midi's are not only unnecessary for the saga as a whole, but they are actually detrimental to the story as established previously. Not only that, but they don't make a lot of sense to begin with. Are beings born with Midi's in them or do Midi's seek out the host after birth? If they are born with the being, then this means that they are not symbiotes at all but actually part of the DNA structure to begin with? But that's not the way they've been described. If they are symbiotes, they should be separate beings that invade the host after birth. But maybe the fetus gets a hearty dose of Midi's during gestation. Which would mean the mother would be all hopped up on Midi's. So what about Shmi? There's no indication that she was chock full o' the little buggers and this is supposed to be a virgin birth.

What about the Skywalker kids? Did the Midi's come from mom (Padme)? Apparently not because Anakin is supposedly the dominant source for this Force proficiency. But that would mean he either gave the kids a blood transfusion after they were born or the Midi's were part of those two sperm that fertilized Padme's eggs. But if that's the case then that means the Midi's aren't symbiotes at all and are just another part of the DNA strand...which we know isn't true because that isn't the way they've been defined in the film.

You see the problems here? I'm not just making this crap up. I wish it made sense, I really really do. It's not my fault. He wrote it. Don't kill the messenger.

2-1B
02-13-2003, 05:12 AM
EVERYONE has midichlorians, some people just have a higher count. It's not like some people have them and some don't - they exist as a physiological part of every person (and all living things). They exist as a given, its just that some people have more. Sure the twins will inherit midichlorians from Padme, she has them too. The kids will just inherit more from Anakin.

It's very hereditary in the OT!
I'll paraphrase:
Leia "You have a power I don't understand, and could never have."
Luke "you're wrong Leia, you have that power too. The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My sister has it."

See, the Batman/Superman comparison is dead on . . . but only when it comes to ANH. In that movie, we don't know Luke is Vader's kid. Later on as the saga unfolds, the Bats/Supes comparison loses its weight because Luke informs Leia that she has this power inherited from her father which she knew nothing of. He doesn't tell her that she can learn to become a Jedi through hard work and an open mind like he did, he tells her that she already "has it" and just needs to learn to use it.
Same with Luke, he already "had it" but just needed to develop his skills. Sure, audiences in 1977 could fully relate to Luke but within 6 years it was clear that Luke was specially blessed all along. In retrospect, not everyone COULD be like Luke.
That was established looooooong before George wrote the word "midichlorian" on paper. :D

Yes, Luke did all of those things and "managed just fine" without knowledge of the midichlorians. But didn't TPM Ani do the same as well ?
stillakid, I know you didn't feel TPM showed enough of Ani's abilities: rather they just talked about it. Regardless of the quality of the technique, we still know he could do some special things:

Before exiting the Queen's starship on Tatooine, Qui-Gon felt something in the Force. Obi-Wan did, too. It was Ani they felt - before he heard about midichlorians.

Ani knows about the Jedi, he wants to be one - he dreams of it, even though he knows nothing (yet) of midichlorians.

Ani can podrace, he's the only human who can do it. Qui-Gon (sensing his Force aptitude) gives him a little pep talk before the race telling him to "feel" and "may the Force be with you." Ani still hasn't overheard Yoda talking about midichlorians.

Qui-Gon generically speaks to Shmi about Ani, "he has special powers." Without any knowledge (yet) of midichlorians, Ani already 'has it' and has begun to use it.

Alright, so Ani finally leaves on his journey to become a Jedi, still without any knowledge of the midichlorians! He wants to be a Jedi, and has already taken some baby steps toward using his abilities successfully. Beyond knowing that they exist as the scientific reason for the Force's existence, the presence of midichlorians mean nothing in the grand scheme. By the time he is a late teen, Ani is doing the same things his kid ends up doing: piloting with great skill, jumping great heights, getting limbs hacked off :crazed: , and wielding a lightsaber.

Beast
02-13-2003, 05:23 AM
Thanks Caesar, you said it even better then I could again. Midiclorians if you step back and look at the big picture, mean nothing. Everyone has them, just having a higher count doesn't mean your better then everyone else. It just means that you have more potential for being able to put to use the Jedi training by tapping the force.

If you're never trained, or your training is lacking, then no matter how great your connection, it's not going to matter a whole lot. Like you said, sure Ani can see things before they happen and can race pods. But he can't do things like force pull objects, do that speed running thing, or weild a lightsaber without probably cutting his own arm off. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
02-13-2003, 11:30 AM
Here is a thought on midichlorians...I hope you all have taken a biology course.

Midis are in all living cells, Qui-Gon tells us this in EI.

Here on Earth, we humans have other biological entities that are contained in all cells. Mitochondria, Ribosomes, Lysosomes, etc...these are all individual living entities that work together in order to sustain life for all parts of the human cell (i.e., they have a symbiotic relationship). They cannot survive without one-another...you get the picture.

So, perhaps an individual's DNA structure possesses the "key" to "unlock" the Force potential of midichlorians...Where only specific DNA sequences interact with the midis. That would explain why some people can manipulate the force, while most cannot.

According to Qui-Gon (and Shimi Skywalker to some extent), the midichlorians conceived Anakin. Thus, not only giving Anakin midichlorians living within his cells, but also giving him midichlorian DNA within his own DNA (Fact: 50% of your chromosomes come from your mother and 50% come from your father [or in this case the midichlorians]).

This would explain why the Skywalker family is so well attuned to the force, while other Jedi's families may not be so attuned to the force (i.e., midichlorian DNA has been introduced into Anakin Skywalker's DNA...a strange and perhaps unique genetic mutation that has allowed him to pass on that DNA to his offspring Luke & Leia).

2-1B
02-13-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Thanks Caesar, you said it even better then I could again. Midiclorians if you step back and look at the big picture, mean nothing. Everyone has them, just having a higher count doesn't mean your better then everyone else. It just means that you have more potential for being able to put to use the Jedi training by tapping the force.

If you're never trained, or your training is lacking, then no matter how great your connection, it's not going to matter a whole lot. Like you said, sure Ani can see things before they happen and can race pods. But he can't do things like force pull objects, do that speed running thing, or weild a lightsaber without probably cutting his own arm off. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I'm not sure we're saying the same thing. :confused:
You just claimed that having a higher count doesn't make you better than anyone else, yet having a higher count means you have more potential ? ? ? Isn't that a contradiction? :confused:

No, my argument is that some people ARE better than others, why else would Force-sensitive infants be taken away to be trained? Why was Luke ultimately able to become a Jedi while so many others were not? It's because of who his father was. Had Anakin sired Han Solo, then Han would likely have that same potential.

So midichlorians DO matter, but not in the sense of the 'haves vs. the have-nots' - it's more like the "haves vs. the have-more." :crazed:
My point here is that we've seen this demonstrated in the OT before the "science" of the midichlorians was ever put on screen to confirm it.


Look, I would have been just fine if they left out the midichlorian stuff from TPM. Some people feel they have no place and no connection to the OT - I disagree because I think there are elements in the OT which coincide quite well with this scientific explanation.

stillakid
02-13-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
EVERYONE has midichlorians, some people just have a higher count. It's not like some people have them and some don't - they exist as a physiological part of every person (and all living things). They exist as a given, its just that some people have more. Sure the twins will inherit midichlorians from Padme, she has them too. The kids will just inherit more from Anakin.
Yes, but where do they come from? George just tossed this idea out there that they exist. He says that they are symbiotes that live in our cells (well, their cells anyway). If they are separate beings, then they MUST come from an external source at a separate time than conception. That Anakin was apparently conceived by the Midichlorians themselves supports this notion which then assumes that Shmi herself was "infected" with them prior to conception. BUT this line of reasoning doesn't follow when we look at the conception of the Skywalker kids. The only way Luke and Leia could have the Force potential that Anakin has is if Anakin's sperm itself contained Midichlorians. This is a fantasy world and all, so maybe this is the point where we all just say "okay, this is George's world" but I like to think that if he's going to the trouble of trying to bring an aspect of science to the Force then he could avoid these kinds of problems.


Originally posted by Caesar
It's very hereditary in the OT!
I'll paraphrase:
Leia "You have a power I don't understand, and could never have."
Luke "you're wrong Leia, you have that power too. The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My father has it. My sister has it."
Yes, it's hereditary, but so is my artistic talent that I got from my mother. No symbiotes required. I truly believe that this is the idea that ROTJ was imparting way back in '83. If George now wants to change the rules of engagement, so be it, but questions are bound to arise about this and other things.


Originally posted by Caesar
See, the Batman/Superman comparison is dead on . . . but only when it comes to ANH. In that movie, we don't know Luke is Vader's kid. Later on as the saga unfolds, the Bats/Supes comparison loses its weight because Luke informs Leia that she has this power inherited from her father which she knew nothing of. He doesn't tell her that she can learn to become a Jedi through hard work and an open mind like he did, he tells her that she already "has it" and just needs to learn to use it.
Same with Luke, he already "had it" but just needed to develop his skills. Sure, audiences in 1977 could fully relate to Luke but within 6 years it was clear that Luke was specially blessed all along. In retrospect, not everyone COULD be like Luke.
That was established looooooong before George wrote the word "midichlorian" on paper. :D
I suppose. As the original trilogy progressed one could see it that way...but only with the knowledge that we have now of the existence of Midichlorians. This is the gray area that's been brought up many times before, but this innate "ability" that the Skywalker kids have has more to do with genetics (like artistic or athletic or mathematical ability) than anything else. His eleventh hour addition of an alien-symbiote-separate-organism-biological reasoning for it alters that unnecessarily in my opinion.


Originally posted by Caesar
Yes, Luke did all of those things and "managed just fine" without knowledge of the midichlorians. But didn't TPM Ani do the same as well ?
stillakid, I know you didn't feel TPM showed enough of Ani's abilities: rather they just talked about it. Regardless of the quality of the technique, we still know he could do some special things:
Yes, exactly, but we never saw any of it, besides the Pod Race. And in that, beyond just flying the thing, he did nothing to suggest that he could do anything special. It's not that TPM didn't show "enough" of his abilities. It didn't show "any" of his abilities.


Originally posted by Caesar
Before exiting the Queen's starship on Tatooine, Qui-Gon felt something in the Force. Obi-Wan did, too. It was Ani they felt - before he heard about midichlorians.
Funny, I got the impression they were "feeling" Palpatine and Maul. But if they could read minds (getting back to that) then we would have known for certain who they were talking about. But since they really can't, then it's open for debate.

But for the record (if we're talking about the same thing), the line is:

JAR JAR walks back to ARTOO in the hallway as QUI-GON (dressed as a farmer) enters the main area.

OBI-WAN : (Cant'd) The Hyperdrive generator is gone. We will need a new one.

QUI-GON moves closer to OBI-WAN and speaks quietly to him.

QUI-GON : Don't let them send ant transmissions. Be wary...I sense a disturbance in the Force.
OBI-WAN : I fell it also, Master.

QUI-GON goes into the hallway to meet up with ARTOO and JAR JAR. They head to the exit ramp.




Originally posted by Caesar
Ani knows about the Jedi, he wants to be one - he dreams of it, even though he knows nothing (yet) of midichlorians.

Ani can podrace, he's the only human who can do it. Qui-Gon (sensing his Force aptitude) gives him a little pep talk before the race telling him to "feel" and "may the Force be with you." Ani still hasn't overheard Yoda talking about midichlorians.

Qui-Gon generically speaks to Shmi about Ani, "he has special powers." Without any knowledge (yet) of midichlorians, Ani already 'has it' and has begun to use it.
True
True
So she says


Originally posted by Caesar
Alright, so Ani finally leaves on his journey to become a Jedi, still without any knowledge of the midichlorians! He wants to be a Jedi, and has already taken some baby steps toward using his abilities successfully.
Exactly. All this is still entirely good even without Midichlorians. Just like Luke, lil' Ani didn't require the knowledge of Midi's to make the mojo work. George inserted this idea into the saga for no other reason than to give the audience (and the characters) a tangible quantifiable reason that Ani should leave the planet. It serves absolutely no other purpose, and, as I've maintained, it does harm to the story as a result.


Originally posted by Caesar
Beyond knowing that they exist as the scientific reason for the Force's existence, the presence of midichlorians mean nothing in the grand scheme. By the time he is a late teen, Ani is doing the same things his kid ends up doing: piloting with great skill, jumping great heights, getting limbs hacked off :crazed: , and wielding a lightsaber.
Yes, exactly. He can do all of this just like Luke did without knowing at all about the Midi's. They clearly aren't necessary for training purposes (as Luke demonstrated) and, as far as we can tell from AOTC, they aren't necessary during the mentor/padawan portion of the program either. I agree wholeheartedly that they mean nothing in the grand scheme of training and using the Force. But the harm they cause is pointless and I believe I've made a pretty good case as to why George wrote them into the story in the first place.

The OT was written by Lucas, Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan with no clue that Midichlorians would be part of the big picture which explains the "lofty" and non-specific language used to get Luke to learn how to use the Force. We know from countless interviews, books, and articles that Lucas was into various mythologies, religions, and cultures at the time. His influences found their way in pieces into the story. Just read through Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth for some examples. For instance:


MOYERS: When I took our two sons to see Star Wars, they did the same thing the audience did at that moment when the voice of Ben Kenobi says to Skywalker in the climactic moment of the last fight, "Turn off your computer, turn off your machine and do it yourself, follow your feelings, trust your feelings." And when he did, he achieved success, and the audience broke out into applause.

This specific scene was a great counter-point to Vader's line earlier when he says:

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
Here's the character who represents the technology of the bad guys, who is actually walking around because of machines, telling his cohorts that technology won't win the war. And we see that specifically at the end when Luke "trusts his feelings." Lucas was bringing all kinds of influences into the screenplay, from Buddhism to ancient Greek mythology. And it worked beautifully.

But now, 25 + years later, he decided to toss in a little influence from god knows where that told him that humans were too weak and insignificant to accomplish greatness on their own. They (we) need help and it came in the form of little tiny aliens. I understand entirely why he put them in the story and what their purpose is supposed to be. I also see why it doesn't work. And I think that only too late, he does too.



But, after all that, it doesn't matter much one way or the other. There are bigger problems in the world to think about. But this is a stimulating and enjoyable distraction. Thanks. :)

The 'Xir
02-15-2003, 05:15 PM
lol- Still-a-kid you're killing me! ;)

You are there my friend, your comprehension of the Midi's is there, and Kudos to JJ, KK, and Ceasar also for great rebuttle's! Kid, I just think your outlook on the whole matter is just a little off! Your lending too much importance onto the Midichlorains. I think if you simplified them or their importance you might accept them more! Kinda like how you brought up artistic ability, but I won't even go that far into it! I like to think of them as say an organ in your body(leave the genetics out of it for a moment!) Say some people are born with bigger Lungs then someone else, they'd probably be better swimmers then most(IF! they develop the talent), or someone might be born with a bigger brain or section of brain, and that might make them better at Math, or art, or just remembering better;kinda like how some people have a photographic memory and others don't(IF! they develop the talent) It's just the FUNCTION they perform for us like a tool! It's really all that simple!
Now, However, I know, I know with that stance your still gonna push the genetics issues that are raised, and you DO have a good question as to where they come from! But remember, we still have another moive to come. Patience my eager knight soon you will know! Maybe not. Hey, George has still gotta explain the whole disappearing thing too remember!

But to give you an answer to satisfy you until the movie comes out, I think they are genetic, why else would they be in all living things. Kinda like how linear scientist say that there are stars or stardust in our cells, meaning we all have the same chemical make-up. Now i'm know physiology expert but, I like to think of Midichlorians more like white blood cells in this regard(genetics), which are actually symbionts with us but a non-invader and a seperate life form! The human DNA bears them or gives birth to them along with the host(us in this case) and why we are symbiots with them is because one couldn't live without the other!!! It's just that because we are the host we could live a little longer without them(although not for long), where they are totally dependant on us and can't live outside the body! And as far as I know although I really haven't crossed my T's and dotted my I's on this issue, I think that would satisfy both Anakin's immaculate conception(IF it holds up), and the twins having such capabilities also!
Remember, birth is just a series a genetic encoded cell mutations, so there's lots of possibilites, good and bad!

darthvader92
02-15-2003, 07:13 PM
Padme could be a Sith Witch

stillakid
02-15-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
lol- Still-a-kid you're killing me! ;)

You are there my friend, your comprehension of the Midi's is there, and Kudos to JJ, KK, and Ceasar also for great rebuttle's! Kid, I just think your outlook on the whole matter is just a little off! Your lending too much importance onto the Midichlorains. I think if you simplified them or their importance you might accept them more! Kinda like how you brought up artistic ability, but I won't even go that far into it! I like to think of them as say an organ in your body(leave the genetics out of it for a moment!) Say some people are born with bigger Lungs then someone else, they'd probably be better swimmers then most(IF! they develop the talent), or someone might be born with a bigger brain or section of brain, and that might make them better at Math, or art, or just remembering better;kinda like how some people have a photographic memory and others don't(IF! they develop the talent) It's just the FUNCTION they perform for us like a tool! It's really all that simple!
Now, However, I know, I know with that stance your still gonna push the genetics issues that are raised, and you DO have a good question as to where they come from! But remember, we still have another moive to come. Patience my eager knight soon you will know! Maybe not. Hey, George has still gotta explain the whole disappearing thing too remember!

But to give you an answer to satisfy you until the movie comes out, I think they are genetic, why else would they be in all living things. Kinda like how linear scientist say that there are stars or stardust in our cells, meaning we all have the same chemical make-up. Now i'm know physiology expert but, I like to think of Midichlorians more like white blood cells in this regard(genetics), which are actually symbionts with us but a non-invader and a seperate life form! The human DNA bears them or gives birth to them along with the host(us in this case) and why we are symbiots with them is because one couldn't live without the other!!! It's just that because we are the host we could live a little longer without them(although not for long), where they are totally dependant on us and can't live outside the body! And as far as I know although I really haven't crossed my T's and dotted my I's on this issue, I think that would satisfy both Anakin's immaculate conception(IF it holds up), and the twins having such capabilities also!
Remember, birth is just a series a genetic encoded cell mutations, so there's lots of possibilites, good and bad!

That all makes sense! :) Why don't we run with that for a while, except I feel that my rebuttals to the rebuttals have been pretty good too. :)

Above all, like I said, the function they are designed to play appears to be fundamentally useless in the grand scheme of the saga. Everyone here has more or less admitted to that by saying that the Force "user" doesn't need any knowledge of Midi's to make the magic work.

Which leads us back to the "why?" Why are they mentioned at all? What's the point? All I can surmise is that either A)George couldn't think of any subtle way of showing us that Anakin had Force potential, or B) he could think of a subtle way to do it but instead decided that we would be too stupid to figure it out, so something more along the lines of a brow-beating was in line. Whatever the case, the end result is that George simply needed a reason for the Jedi guys to whisk Ani off the planet and this was the plot device he decided to use to do it.

So, simply because George had a problem to solve (how to show the Jedi that Ani had Force potential) he came up with this moronic and very useless element that A) I promise you we will never hear about again, and B) has negative repercussions upon the character arcs that resonate throughout the entire 6 episodes.

Maybe I am putting a lot more emphasis on this story element than is necessary, but he dropped it in there. I'm just examining it's strengths and weaknesses. Mostly weaknesses. Why put something so potentially damaging into a story when there are other and better ways to advance the plot?

Pointless. Pointless.

The 'Xir
02-16-2003, 04:53 PM
I think it harkens back to 2 of the original moral issues in the movies. 1) The choices you make in life determine your life. and 2) Faith(not neccessarily organized religion) just Faith!!!


"your focus determines your reality"

"your overconfidence is your weakness", "your faith in your friends is yours!".

stillakid
02-17-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
I think it harkens back to 2 of the original moral issues in the movies. 1) The choices you make in life determine your life. and 2) Faith(not neccessarily organized religion) just Faith!!!


"your focus determines your reality"

"your overconfidence is your weakness", "your faith in your friends is yours!".

Not sure what you're aiming at there.

If I'm understanding you right, I'd have to disagree and say that Midichlorians fly in the face of both those things. With the advantage of having a superdose of Midichlorians in the system, any being would be somewhat hardpressed to avoid using the Force. Those things, well, they "force" the issue (no pun intended). So in terms of focus determining the reality, it's not true at all. Anakin needed no real focus yet he managed to tap into the Force anyway because he was biologically blessed.

Same with faith. Not necessary anymore. With the old way we understood the Force and how someone taps into it, yes, it took a tremendous of amount of faith and trust that it would work. But now, with Midis, that is tossed out the window because they know without a doubt that it will work. No faith involved at all.

The 'Xir
02-18-2003, 01:22 AM
No, NO, NO! Ughh!

I just use those lines as examples of the general statement I made!

I'm saying to you, for all your criticism(two post ago), and well throughout this thread, maybe it just comes down to having a little faith man! I don't know...Faith in 'SW', maybe Faith in George who knows, but just Faith!

Actually, you know what, this whole situation is a perfect example of the lessons George is trying to teach us! Wether conscientiously, or sub-conscientiously your choosing to accept these Midi's as a negative element(in respect to the story). But beware, anger, FEAR, aggression...the darkside are they! Maybe you just need a little faith, or shown a litttle faith for that matter! ;-)

As far as your comments above, no offense but I think your wrong, because that's what George is saying about the Fall of Anakin. It's what EpII and III are all about! The Choices that Anakin Makes leads him down the dark path and ultimately to his destruction, so the Force or the Midi's doesn't "force" him to do anything! Remember once again these are just tools to use, to help a "potential" Jedi through life! And forget the Midi's in this regard, George has even said that the Force itself is ultimetly a "tool", and it does come down to the individual and once again the choices they make in life! Now I think I've explained my position on the whole Faith thing before, so I won't get into that part of your comments.
However here is something to ponder on about the whole notion of choices: In my profession as a salesman there is a positive rein'force'ment mantra that is well known throught the business world, and it is this; "Everything that stands between you and your goals, is just an excuse!". Meaning that you choose everything in life, and those choices are what determine if you reach your goals or not! Say, your behind on some bills, but it's snowing out, it's freezing out and your felling a little under the weather, you may choose to stay home from work? However these are all excuses you might make up just to stay home and not take the responsibility to go to work so you don't lose the hours of pay for that day, so at the end of the week you can pay your bills! Now this is just one example, 'cause maybe in your job you get some paid sick days, where as in a sales position, this scenario is more poingent because you manily work off commision, so if you don't work, you don't get paid! But this Mantra can be used in all aspects of life!!!

Beast
02-18-2003, 01:31 AM
Midi-chlorians, as explained by the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas:

"Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something--which will come out someday--to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist. And it's really a way of saying we have hundreds of little creatures who live on us, and without them, we all would die. There wouldn't be any life. They are necessary for us; we are necessary for them. Using them in the metaphor, saying society is the same way, says we all must get along with each other."

An excellent and well thought out thesis on Midi-Chlorians, from 2000. :)

http://www.theforce.net/midichlorians/

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-18-2003, 02:35 AM
GL is a frikkin genius.:D

Beast
02-18-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
GL is a frikkin genius.:D
Was there ever any doubt? ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-18-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Was there ever any doubt? ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Never.:D

stillakid
02-18-2003, 09:17 AM
Ahhh,...forget it. Whatever floats your boat.



Enjoy the hobby! :)

The 'Xir
02-18-2003, 07:18 PM
LOL- Come On Stll-A-Kid it's OK! Come on and sing along...."Let the sun shine, let the sunshine in..." ;)

"The Force is strong with this one" :p

stillakid
02-19-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
LOL- Come On Stll-A-Kid it's OK! Come on and sing along...."Let the sun shine, let the sunshine in..." ;)

"The Force is strong with this one" :p

:) If there's one thing I've learned from these boards (aside from Steve's excellent toy release updates!) is that you can't change anyone's opinions no matter how good the argument. So, there you go. :) Back to the toys.

The 'Xir
02-19-2003, 11:32 AM
Ahh True, very true, and Hey it's good for the soul to have a little healthy debate now and then, atleast there are people worthy enough on these boards to have a good debate with from time to time! It's been awhile since me and JT have gotten into it, so I had to look elsewhere! :D

stillakid
02-19-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Ahh True, very true, and Hey it's good for the soul to have a little healthy debate now and then, atleast there are people worthy enough on these boards to have a good debate with from time to time! It's been awhile since me and JT have gotten into it, so I had to look elsewhere! :D

Thanks, I'm honored to be worthy of your abuse. ;)


The debates are great. I think that the reason I do it isn't to convince others that I'm right. Rather, I'm dying for someone to prove me wrong. Hasn't happened yet. Life goes on...

The 'Xir
02-21-2003, 09:20 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

IS THAT SO HUH?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

:p :frus: :stupid: :happy: :p :frus: :stupid: :happy: :p :frus: :stupid:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D