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mini-rock
02-07-2003, 04:36 PM
Check it here. (http://www.theforce.net/holonet/index.shtml) Glad I have the Lasers even though I do not watch them as much as the S.E. Still can't wait to get the OT on DVD.:D

Beast
02-07-2003, 04:46 PM
God, I hate Theforce.net. It takes forever to load the damn story over there. Not sure why, the banner loads fast but the rest of the site takes forever to finally appear. Here's the highlights, for those people on dial-up. :p

1.NO Special Editions for the PrequelsÖ but he also did not count out adding in footage that existed we havenít seen. Example: The Duel Lightsaber fight between Yoda and Dooku.

2. No Original Release versions (alaí E.T DVD) on the OT DVDísÖ The Special Editions are what he wanted the films to be originally, but time and money restraints way back when did not allow them to happen.

3. He said he has no old effects for the OT put away for the DVDsÖ but I would also imagine that does NOT included stuff that he wonít be fixing or adding to already shot scenes(Sandstorm from ROTJ or Biggs and LukeÖetc)

4. Believes that at this point, theyíve accomplished everything that they need to Technology wise to complete the Prequels and doesnít for see any ďdifficulties in the productionĒ. What I got from that is, now all thatís left is to finish the storyÖ tie it all together with The OT and make us all proud he actually made the Prequels.

Glad I kept my Laserdiscs as well. As long as he redoes some of the Special Effects for the upcoming S.E. DVD's I'll be happy. I'm sure he will, since the Archival Editions are almost a lock now from all the stuff coming from the Insider.

So may want to hang onto those current copies of the S.E. as well, since the new Special Editions/Archival Editions could be a different version from the 1997 S.E.'s. I wouldn't doubt it, especially with the crappy Jabba in ANH. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
02-08-2003, 03:28 AM
I think George is an absolute crackpot for not releasing theatrical editions on DVD. I would love them and would buy the original cuts as well as any super duper versions. I think it's a BAAAAD idea to just go with his 77/97/2007 (or whatever) continually updated versions. :cry:

That being said . . .

I JUST finished reading a rant by Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits about this topic and I think he's partly delusional as well. He's claiming that unless he can get the original cuts he won't buy any other version on DVD and he won't review them on the site. He admits that George "hinted" that we wouldn't get the originals ever again, but I distinctly recall hearing in 1995 that the THX release would be the LAST TIME to buy the original versions.

In all fairness, of course many people weren't really thinking about the HUGE explosion of DVD just down the road. Likewise, I do think it's warranted for people to plead for the original cuts on DVD . . . but at the same time, I don't want to see people going overboard in their reactions as if this were actually "news." :D

Beast
02-08-2003, 03:35 AM
Bill Hunt can get really preachy when he feels he's been wronged by a movie studio. I love his site and check it Mon-Fri for new news. But sometimes you just have to roll your eyes at his occassional rants and scroll past them to get to the news. And yes, when the THX versions were released on VHS it was highly touted that it would be the last time to ever buy the original versions on Home Video. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-08-2003, 09:38 AM
Well, I've made some of those comments before, believe it or not:D, but all I really want are these films on DVD. I also check his site often for new news, and it's been a long while since I've talked to him, but I doubt he will want his site to be the only one not doing reviews on the SW:AE DVD's.

I'm sure George did know of DVD back when he made the SE's. He always seems up on stuff like this. I always believed when the OT:THX version came out that was the last time like it said, but you never know.....he may surprise us. :)

mrmiller
02-10-2003, 11:27 AM
I don't see what the DVD's can't be released with both versions on them- like Stargate and Terminator 2 for example. Is it really that difficult? Nayhow, I don't mind not getting the Original version and having the SE. I have both on tape now- and watch the SE more. I like the scene with Jabba in ANH, I just wish Jabba looked better, but I'd rather have a crappy Jabba than not have that scene at all. The only one I don't like is the Greedo/Han showdown... But that's been discussed many times before.

=MATT=

JON9000
02-10-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Glad I kept my Laserdiscs as well. As long as he redoes some of the Special Effects for the upcoming S.E. DVD's I'll be happy. I'm sure he will, since the Archival Editions are almost a lock now from all the stuff coming from the Insider.

So may want to hang onto those current copies of the S.E. as well, since the new Special Editions/Archival Editions could be a different version from the 1997 S.E.'s. I wouldn't doubt it, especially with the crappy Jabba in ANH. :)

Jar-Jar, I know you are seriously against piracy. But... LD players are pretty much extinct and some of us want the original OT. Also, LDs are subject to a phenomonon called Disc Rot over time.

I think that if George doesn't want to put out the unmodified OT we are perfectly justified in going to the black market for DVDs cut from the LDs. I should not have to plunk down bucks for an LD player just so I can enjoy the original versions, especially when the discs will go bad eventually anyway.

Of course I am going to buy the SEs. And I would be more than happy to pay for the originals as well. But if they aren't made available...

:Pirate:

icatch9
02-10-2003, 11:41 AM
I would love the OT in its theatrical version. It would of course be great, but I understand why GL won't put it out. He won't sell something that is incomplete or not as good as it could be. Many of us think the SE is dumb and the additions arn't so "Special", but what does it really take away from the story or the movies? The Jabba sceen is cool and makes us see the Hutt in a new light. Sure the FX aren't to good, but it was 1996 for pitty sake, it was pretty awsome back then. Without that Jabba we wouldn't have the Yoda everyone loves to see fight in AOTC. Plus, I'm sure that influenced the Gollum character in TTT.

I'd love to see as many version of Star Wars as possible (I'd hate paying for them, but I'd love watching them). You can't please all of the people all of the time. To me it seems that no matter what GL does fanboys will b-itch and moan about it. So why should he care ? :)

TheDarthVader
02-10-2003, 12:15 PM
It doesn't bother me that the OT won't be on DVD. I have them on tape anyway. And if technology wouldn't allow it, we would never get ANY star wars film on dvd with such clarity and great sound. So I try to be thankful for the little things. You can still have the OT...only on tape. The SE aren't bad...I like them!

mark2d2
02-10-2003, 12:17 PM
Lately, Lucas seems to go out of his way to **** me off.

This is such a totally Lame thing to do to fans.
Why must we always suffer his mistakes?

If it aint broke ---- don't fix it. Sometimes I wish Lucas had
just left everything well enough alone. The prequals get worse
and worse every time I watch them.

And now I'm stuck forever with Greedo firing first.

Pirate DVDs from Malaysia here I come . . . :rolleyes:

kadamontaga
02-10-2003, 12:29 PM
I don't care one bit. I'll just be glad to have them on DVD. The only thing I can remember disliking in the SE versions was that weird CG singer in Jabba's Palace, and that CG Jabba in the scene with Han.
Other than that, I really don't care. The SW films are far from perfect anyway, so I don't see what difference a few small changes make.

mini-rock
02-10-2003, 01:33 PM
From the story on the front page here's the direct link to Pagesix (http://www.pagesix.com/pagesix/54261.htm).

First, we all knew this would happen, and most of us hoped GL would release the OT as well. So it should come as no surprise that GL is going to release the SE's of the OT only. I'm extremely happy to be getting Star Wars on DVD whether it's in SE or original form. Sure I would liked to have had the theatrical cut, but like I said, we knew it would happen this way. The "surprise" will be if GL decides to surprise fans with an original OT release on DVD, and not the news that's been posted.

The problem I have with this article is that the person who wrote it thinks he speaks for all Star Wars fans by saying all fans detest, and hate the the SE's. Even insulting fans by using the word "groupies" for describing fans. This person needs to speak from his POV, not claiming to know how all Star Wars fans feel.

Am I wrong here? What do you guy's think?

stillakid
02-10-2003, 01:44 PM
I suggest the following:


Star Wars Trilogy Widescreen Original Editions (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3310953269&category=1475)

+

DVD Recorder (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/Industrial/IndustrialProductDetails/0,1444,21838,00.html)

=

:)

kadamontaga
02-10-2003, 01:47 PM
You're absolutely right mini-rock. I'm not the most adept user of the English language, but I really have a problem with how some people choose to use it.
I've been doing discourse analysis at University recently so I'm quite interested in these sort of things at the moment.

evenflow
02-10-2003, 02:33 PM
I think that the Special Editions work, but as long as they take out the Han shooting first scene.

In all seriousness, it really doesn't bother me that we will only be getting the special editions, as long as certain things happen...

1. All the deleted scenes are included; sandstorm, Biggs, etc.
2. Holiday Special is included

Simdog
02-10-2003, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE] I'm sure he will, since the Archival Editions are almost a lock now from all the stuff coming from the Insider.


What did the Insider say that makes you think Archival Editions are a lock?

plasticfetish
02-10-2003, 08:10 PM
F!

I'm not a big fan of the Special (big brother) Edition, honestly they sort of mortify me. I'll buy them when they come out ... if I can find them for a super low price. Otherwise, I suppose I can just wait a decade or so until someone changes their mind.

mini-rock
02-11-2003, 01:57 AM
Well, now it looks like a entire website dedicated specifically to getting the OT on DVD is up. Check out http://www.originaltrilogy.com if your interested.

Beast
02-11-2003, 02:06 AM
Yawn! Waste of time really. It's not going to happen, most likely. No matter how many grumbles and whines he gets from the fan boys. They are his movies, and he's free to do whatever he wants with them. If people don't like that, they have the option of getting the VHS or the LD copies of the original versions.

In my opinion, as long as they redo the Jabba scene and maybe change the way the Greedo scene plays out, then the special editions are my prefered versions. They already are, because they work so much better. Bring on the DVD's.

You know there would be alot less complaints, if it was changes like having the correct Emperor in Holo inserted in ESB, and other changes like that. Just like the S.E.'s of most of the movies I own, they seem to work better. Legend, Star Trek: TMP, ALIENS, The Abyss, Terminator 2. The S.E.'s are always far superior.

Just look at the Abyss for instance. I never heard a bunch of complaints and moaning about them releasing the S.E. of that. And it's far superior to the theatrical version. And it's the same case as Star Wars, James Cameron used modern effects to finish the movie as he wanted it to be seen. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-11-2003, 02:22 AM
I'm with you on that JJB. Honestly this whole thing is bordering ridiculous. I used to be in the "Give me the movie the way it was in the theater" camp, but over the last couple years I've realized anybody who makes a film has the right to change it anyway they want. GL will do whatever he wants. I love what he has done with the prequels, and what he is trying to do with the OT.:D

Beast
02-11-2003, 02:32 AM
I mean, I can understand some complaints. But geez, some of the stuff like what Bill Hunt and Harry Knowles are saying sounds like Lucas just announced he was Hitler. I think some people need to take a step back, realize these are only movies, and quit spewing the bile about Lucas' decisions.

Sure, they are great movies. And I grew up with the original versions myself. But I still like the changes done to the S.E.'s. Other then Jabba, he needs redone to current CGI standards. I may not like everything, but I'm all for artists rights. And that includes the filmmakers. Even Lucas. :)

MTFWBY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

plasticfetish
02-11-2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
No matter how many grumbles and whines he gets from the fan boys.
I'm not sure I'm comfortable at the age of 34 being referred to as a "fan boy" (Insert annoying winky eye thing here.)

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Just look at the Abyss for instance. I never heard a bunch of complaints and moaning about them releasing the S.E. of that.
Maybe because you are one of the few people that DID take a look at the Abyss (insert winky eye again)

Any-hoo, not that the debate of Original Flavor vs. Extra Crispy couldn't last forever ... it just seems to be worth less to me, to have only this modern edited version. I think the best thing about DVD (way more so than VHS ever) is that you have the opportunity to posses what is possibly the cleanest most original version of a motion picture. For me, the Special Edition version is not so "special", it's an unnecessarily re-filtered duplicate of something that made history over 25 years ago. I'm not sure I see the difference between having only the newer version or only having the choice of a full screen version of the movie. What if Lucas exercised his "artistic" license and decided that wide screen was out and we only needed full screen at home? It's just silly. Modifying the original and offering it up as an option is one thing. To decide that the original version, as seen and loved by the world, can no longer be presented is lame. That lameness is what upsets people ... it's just hard to believe that in this case the wants of the fans would be so ignored. Especially since in another 5 or 10 years when the prequel buzz has worn off, the only people caring about any of this will be the "fan boys" (insert final winky eye.)

Darkross
02-11-2003, 10:43 AM
Well...I truly think that the DVD special editions will include a few "new surprises" Jabba scene redone to modern CGI quality, and Emperor hologram scene redone. G.L. has said on many occaisions that he was filming additional scenes for the OT during the PT to help the 6 movies flow better. Of this I would like to think that with Lucas's opinion of CGI, he won't leave us dissappointed with the Jabba scene in ANH, or with the puppet Yoda in TPM (which looks absolutely terrible) compared to AOTC. I mean Lucas said for a long time that he wouldn't release any films on DVD until he finished the PT, but fans spoke out and he released TPM on DVD a year later. So I on the other hand think that voicing our concerns will make a difference...since we are the ones that will be purchasing the movies he's making.

mini-rock
02-11-2003, 11:16 AM
I agree with you about voicing our opinions Darkross, but petitions I've seen, and comments from fans on numerous sites are lashing out at Lucas. Not a great way to get an opinion across.

"Maybe because you are one of the few people who DID take a look at the Abyss." - plasticfetish

Not sure what you are trying to say here, but you can add me to the one of the few who bought, saw and enjoyed this film (DVD).

"What if Lucas excercised his artistic license and decided wide screen was out and we only needed full screen at home." - plasticfetish

You bring up a good point. It could happen, but would then have the Star Wars community, and Videophiles P'oed. GL will want to make some money so he will cater to both sides.:)

Beast
02-11-2003, 11:36 AM
The only director that's excercised his artistic license and demaned P&S only releases for his movies on home video is Stanley Kubrick. That's why other then 2001 and a couple others, you can't get any of his movies in their correct theatrical aspect ratios. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JON9000
02-11-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The only director that's excercised his artistic license and demaned P&S only releases for his movies on home video is Stanley Kubrick. That's why other then 2001 and a couple others, you can't get any of his movies in their correct theatrical aspect ratios. :p :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I used to be upset about that, but it turns out that Kubrick actually filmed The Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Eyes Wide Shut, and maybe a few others in the 4:3 aspect ratio, which he evidently preferred. To the best of my knowledge, 2001 is the only film that uses a very wide AR. So in this rare case, showing the movie in the theatrical AR would be chooping part of the picture off.

Also, say what you want about directors tweaking their movies afterwards, but try this one on for size....

The original version of Star Wars is a piece of cinematic history just as 2001 was. Watching 2001, I get a very clear idea of where special effects were in 1968, and I marvel when I compare it to episodes of Star Trek from the same era. I thank heavens that Kubrick did not go back in 1995 and gut his beautiful movie to increase the whiz bang factor or make it politically correct (sort of like later popes painting figs over Michelangelo's nudes).

Watching Star Wars and other movies of the period lets us trace the evolution of effects work (which I find to be interesting).

Movies are a reflection of the times in which they were created... lose that, and you lose part of the experience... can anyone imagine Scout not saying the N word in To Kill a Mockingbird?

If a director must, I guess it is okay... but Warner's cheesy CGI mannequins in Eyes Wide really stink.

jeffonthego
02-12-2003, 12:36 AM
I'd say why not just put both versions on one DVD, which would require some scenes to have two options for that 'chapter'. You could select which version you wanted to watch, and the DVD would play the appropriate chapter versions.

Has anyone come across a disc like this?

Maybe space limitations is a problem, might require two discs like the extended LOTR disc. Speaking of which, while I love this set, I was sometimes curious to see what the theatrical scenes looked like.

It's an interesting (and somewhat disturbing) trend now that DVDs are becoming their own versions, with the theatrical version falling in to obscurity once it leaves the theatre. As a film enthusiast, this is problematic from the perspective of keeping an historical record of films.

For instance, Star Wars (1977) was a groundbreaking film in special effects and also giving a push to the sci fi genre. But what will future film enthusiasts (film school students, future filmmakers, fans) be able to look back to if they cannot find the original 1977 print?

Technology is such for the vast majority of people, all VHS tapes/machines will gradually disappear, so will DVD eventually. On the 50th anniversary of Star Wars, how many people will have access to the original version?

The more I think about, it's sad . . .

________________

Now, in a schizophrenic mood, the fan of the story does relish any new things I can see (deleted scenes, new scenes - I just want both versions).

One prediction is that we will see an even older, more shriveled Watto in the DVD version of ANH. I can see someone chasing away this little shriveled-up old Watto from the Mos Eisley canteena . . .

jeffonthego
02-12-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Well, now it looks like a entire website dedicated specifically to getting the OT on DVD is up. Check out http://www.originaltrilogy.com if your interested.

My submission:

Please preserve the historical record. New/DVD versions have merit in their own right, but not at the expense of wiping the original theatrical version from historical memory.

Beast
02-12-2003, 12:52 AM
Hehe, I love now how Bill Hunt over at the bits is complaining that Paramount wouldn't let Shatner do new Special Effects shots and re-edit and re-cut Star Trek V into a Special Edition for the upcoming DVD release. :)

I've been reading the same thing from fans, about how Shatner should have been allowed to present his "final vision" of Star Trek V on DVD. Yet Lucas has no right to present his "final vision" of Star Wars on DVD. Arn't we censoring Lucas, by playing the studio role and saying that he has no right to change his movies. Nice double standard.

I guess if a S.E. is turned down by the studios, it's time to fight for the filmaker's rights. But if it's the filmaker himself that decides to make and release the S.E.'s, and in the case of Lucas, pretty much paying for them out of his own pocket. Because he feels that the original versions never matched his vision, it's blasphamy. I guess artistic rights only mean somthing, if they are being stepped on. ;)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
02-12-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Yet Lucas has no right to present his "final vision" of Star Wars on DVD. Arn't we censoring Lucas, by playing the studio role and saying that he has no right to change his movies. Nice double standard.

There's no double standard that I can see.
I've not seen anyone argue that he has no right to change his movies, they're just saying that BOTH should be offered. :)

Beast
02-12-2003, 02:33 AM
Check other forums, it's is very light here. Of course, most of the people that actually post on AICN, I wouldn't want around me anyway. Some of them seem unstable, screaming about commando raids into Skywalker ranch, and killing Lucas. :)

Lucas doesn't see it that way, and while it would be nice if he offered both, I'm sure just as many people would be screaming and complaining about that. After all, they were doing that when both versions of LOTR's were offered. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
02-12-2003, 03:11 AM
Would they be "screaming and complaining" if both versions were sold together? NO.

I didn't hear any complaining once the E.T. set was modified to include both versions.

mini-rock
02-12-2003, 03:37 AM
If they were released together that'd be cool. Guess it would be what, a 12 disc set?

Won't hold my breath though. I don't think all the petition's in the world would get GL to change his mind, and with some of the remarks on other sites (even some here) why should GL could care anymore how the fans feel. I know I wouldn't. Heck If I were him I'd tell everyone to go to hell, not release anymore Star Wars in any medium, and everyone can kiss EP3 bye bye if I had heard there were fans making threats against me.

I dunno, I'm kind of an ahole though, and GL seems like he's a really nice guy.)

My .02 :D

plasticfetish
02-12-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Aren't we censoring Lucas, by playing the studio role and saying that he has no right to change his movies.
He obviously has the "right" to do whatever he wants. It would be nice if he left the original films alone and let them stand on their own merits. I'm beginning to wonder (not like I'm the first person to ever do this) if the whole thing wasn't just a fluke in the first place. Having the choice or right to edit and redevelop your work doesn't necessarily mean that you will improve it. In this case, I'm feeling that cleaning up the "mistakes" is also diminishing the most valuable elements of the films original character. Because you have the right to do a thing, doesn't necessarily mean that it's worth doing.

Paul-Kenobi
02-12-2003, 02:29 PM
i'm confussed is Lucas releaseing the Classic Tril on DVD or no ?

Greyfolk
02-12-2003, 05:48 PM
The OT will be released on DVD, who knows when, but it will only be the SE. Evidently the Classic Trilogy Before SE is in the moritorium (sp?)

I want to buy the LaserDiscs, a LaserDisc Player and burn it onto a DVD (edit as needed on my PC). The Original is the only version as far as I'm concerned.

Knowing GL, he's telling us 'no' now so when he releases the SE for the final time on DVD, we'll all buy it, then 6 months later yell "Suckers, here is the Classic OT available only on DVD!"

JediTricks
02-12-2003, 07:02 PM
ST5 is on DVD already, the version we got in theaters. The special edition of ST2 is out now but Paramount continues to ship the theatrical version as well. Shatner, like Ridley Scott with Blade Runner, had changes and additional limitations demanded of him by the studio - I believe any time that happens where a studio monkeys with the product, the director has the right to put out an alternate version at some point but the fans should be allowed to have the original-release version available as well. Hell, I'm not so thrilled that there's no theatrical cut of Blade Runner on DVD.

Lucas claimed the "Special Editions" were originally to save the films before they were totally destroyed by decay, but instead he has tried to erase these films. He continues to attempt to rewrite history to fit his needs and I don't think that's reasonable behavior. The classic trilogy is an institution not because Han Solo is a noble guy who only defends himself.

It seems selfish that Lucas can let an entire generation fall in love with the CT and then say "nope, sorry, no more for you, doesn't exist, even though I'm 20 years older and a totally different man, I meant to do this and that differently so you can't have the original in a high-quality format". If Lucas wants to pretend that the SEs are the only Star Wars, then I want him to refund me all the money I spent on the product that soon will have 'never existed'. I'm not surprised in Lucas, but I'm passionately disappointed in him.

Beast
02-12-2003, 07:21 PM
I actually used Star Trek V not just as an example, but so that I could bring up Star Trek: The Motion Picture. A movie that suffered due to not enough money to complete the film as the director intended. Which was later completed as the director originally envisioned it to be. And only the S.E. is out on DVD, no original version. Yet there was little to no complaining about that choice. :)

He did save them, I'm sure you recall the footage of the print of Star Wars from the Fox Vault. Deteriorating, everything was washed out. The color had almost completly disapeered from the film. So he did restore the film, even if he made changes to it. Most that he always envisioned or wanted, that he couldn't do at the time. Any of the changes in the whole are minor, it's not like everything was changed. :)

The argument that Lucas owes you somthing for changing the films, is rediculous. He's not changing the storyline at all. The only thing that could be nitpicked into somthing changing the story is Greedo's shot going off a second before Han's. But we know that Han shot Greedo because he was threatening him. So it doesn't change the intention. Greedo was always a terrible bounty hunter, or he would have known that Han was drawing on him under the table. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
02-12-2003, 07:50 PM
The words "directors cut" and "special edition" have been thrown around ST:TMP for quite a while, but I am pretty sure that the "directors cut" from way back in the day with the added dialogue to several scenes and Kirk leaving the EVA suit bay has been available on DVD for some time even though the current "special edition directors cut" with a new edit and better fx is out now.


But he didn't save the films, he spliced 'em up and changed 'em around so that the originals no longer exist for the posterity they deserved. He restored negatives but then altered the content, that's not saving the films. You can make all the excuses you want for Lucas, but the film that caused enormous crowds at the Chinese theater in Hollywood in the late '70s isn't the Star Wars that Lucas is making available today; Star Wars reinvented special effects, it created the motion-control camera, yet those cinematic achievements are largely missing from the ANH:SE. To suggest that the changes to ESB and ROTJ are even his alone to decide upon is sheer vanity, he directed neither and had little to do with ESB, yet he chops it up and throws in screams that ruin the entire weight of a scene and gratiutous shots of a new Wampa that don't match the originals they're being intercut with.

I'll say it again, if Lucas wants to pretend the so-called "Special Editions" are the original basis for the Star Wars institution, then he does owe many of us money since we paid him to see Star Wars and apparently none of us ever did.

Beast
02-12-2003, 08:05 PM
Actually, the recent DVD release of Star Trek: TMP was the first time the original film had been released on DVD. The original version without updated effects is not available on DVD. :)

Count up the ammount of changes, and they equal to very little screen time totally. The Special Editions caused just as much crowds, enough for all three films to move up a couple notches on the Top Money Maker's lists. :)

Yeah, and Lucas is behind the reinvention of special effects now. So why doesn't he deserve a chance to finish the movies as he invisioned when he dreamed the world up all those years ago. And even if there were other directors behind ESB and ROTJ's cameras, it still was Lucas' movie and he gave the job to them. If it wouldn't have been for his heart attack, he would have directed them also.

JT, he owes you squat. George didn't intend to change the world or create a cult with Star Wars, inspite of Franci Coppola's insistence that he should make the force a real religion. He didn't intend for an entire generation to grow up literally worshipping his work. He has said it over and over again, he wanted Star Wars to simply impart the morals of right and wrong.

He did not say he wanted Star Wars to shape the childhoods of millions of people. He doesn't want that, and he doesn't cater to it. If he did, he'd release the original versions on DVD, and then release the S.E., and then the Archival Editions. Because he knows that most would buy all three. He still sees Star Wars as his art, and he wants it to be complete. As I said before, there has to be a point when the artist has the final word on his own work, whether you like the changes or not.

Frankly, I don't blame Lucas one bit for his decision. In fact I give the man immense credit for sticking to his guns after all these years of taking crap from every little self-appointed movie critic with a computer. Imagine sinking all the time and effort into a film only to have it picked apart piece by piece like NO OTHER FILMS IN HISTORY. "He should've done this... Why did he do that?..." He didn't HAVE to do any of it, I think he probably has enough cash to live on for the rest of his life don't you?

But no, he sunk his own money into crafting the originals to be closer to his original vision. And he sunk his own money into making the prequels, exactly like he wanted them to be. Not to mention all the money he poured into THX, ILM, Skywalker Sound, things that make all movies bettter. They are his movies, and his world, and he has as much right to alter his movies to fit his original vision as any other artist. Artistic freedom doesn't have an on and off switch, it a constant. You can't say one filmmaker has the right, and another doesn't. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Greyfolk
02-12-2003, 08:49 PM
I have a hard time swallowing the idea that Lucas is doing anything for the passion of the film. He milks every edit and change for everything its worth. How many times or differernt versions has he released the OT?

And on a seperate issue; Jedi Rocks sucks, the fact Jabba has a different amount of fingers in ANH the SE then he does in RotJ, there are a ton of reasons I hate the SE.

I don't trust Lucas, he's in it for the money, he always has been ever since RotJ. IMnotsoHO.

mini-rock
02-12-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Greyfolk
I have a hard time swallowing the idea that Lucas is doing anything for the passion of the film. He milks every edit and change for everything its worth. How many times or differernt versions has he released the OT?

Apparently not enough since everyone is crying to get them on DVD.

Greyfolk
02-12-2003, 09:04 PM
Yeah, but a DVD is a completely different medium. Of course we want a clearer picture. I just don't want 13 versions of the same DVD.

Beast
02-12-2003, 09:05 PM
How is he milking every edit and every change? If he was in it solely for the money, this wouldn't even be an issue. He would release the Original Versions, then the Special Editions, and then the new Archival Editions on DVD. Just because he would know that people would buy all of them. He never would have said in 1995, "The original versions, availble for the last time on Home Video." He'd be cranking both out.

If he was in it solely for the money, he would have opened AOTC's after Spider-Man. And he would have cast Leonardo Dicaprio as was originally rumored, because that would bring in more money. He would have made the prequels purely how fan focus groups wanted. Really funny how he's in it for the money, yet he finances these movies himself. How many movie makers do that?

Don't forget all the cash that he sinks into THX, ILM, Skywalker Sound, Lucasarts, etc. All the money he stuck into things like Sony's digital film camera. All the advances that those dollars brought to the film industry over the past 26+ years. Just because the guy has money, doesn't mean he's money grubbing, or doing things solely for gaining more. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
02-12-2003, 09:20 PM
I agree. (somebody write this down)

This isn't about money at all. He obviously had a grand idea to tell a story that has crossed over a few generations of what is possible visually. Now that he's "finishing" it all up, he has the luxury of going back into the original films to "fix" all the things that bugged him the first time around. He's the ultimate in independent filmmakers. Being able to greenlight, finance, and call the shots on distribution is the holy grail. He has it and is using it. Why not?

None of us have to like the changes he's making, whether they be limited to the special effects or to the story itself. But I don't really remember him asking either. Watch it or don't. Buy it or don't. No skin off his back. He's reasonably confident at this point that whatever he does, he won't lose money on the deal. Even if he did lose money, it still wouldn't matter too much. He's got tons more cash where that came from plus several money making companies and properties to generate more. No, it's definitely NOT about the money.

Greyfolk
02-12-2003, 09:43 PM
Okay, as an artist I have a really hard time dealing with the artistic changes he made.. that is my biggest peeve... I abhor 'Jedi Rocks'. I didn't hate anthing of the original, I loved it. Perhaps thats just the idealistis 8 year-old living within me. But I cannot say that Lucas doesn't see $ either. He's not the purist that some of you think he is. He is the model capitolist, he works the system.

I love SW, I just wish Greedo never shot first.

Beast
02-12-2003, 09:51 PM
Yes, but again. As an artist, he has every right to do whatever he wants with the films. You hate "Jedi Rocks", I prefer it over the song that sounds like Sy is singing "He's muscle man". To me it seems more like somthing that Jabba would have going on in his Palace. Just a giant party with drinking, loud music, and the scum of the galaxy. :cool:

Sure, he sees the $'s. So does anyone that makes money. Unless they are fooling themselves. But that's not what is making him make these changes. Like he's said, he expects EIII to make the least money of any of his movies, due to the dark tones. He's even said he expects that many fans will dislike him after it's all over with.

But the point is, he doesn't care. He's doing these films his way, to please himself, and his children. He wants to please his directors vision of the universe he dreamed up. If he makes other people happy, that's secondary to him. Just like if he makes money. It's his way of expressing himself artistically. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Greyfolk
02-12-2003, 09:58 PM
I hope and pray that EIII is dark (ESB dark), and he's doing it for the climax of the work--even at a loss. If Lucas can pull it off, if this is really all just a great big build up then I am a very happy fan. All will be well with me.

I'll just make my own copy of the original OT. My VHS will wear out eventually.

I cannot agree with the non-williams music though :)

stillakid
02-12-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Greyfolk
Okay, as an artist I have a really hard time dealing with the artistic changes he made.. that is my biggest peeve... I abhor 'Jedi Rocks'. I didn't hate anthing of the original, I loved it. Perhaps thats just the idealistis 8 year-old living within me. But I cannot say that Lucas doesn't see $ either. He's not the purist that some of you think he is. He is the model capitolist, he works the system.

I love SW, I just wish Greedo never shot first.

Nobody ever said he was a purist. If he was, the Prequels would all have free admission.

And if his motivations had anything at all to do with money, he would have already released the original versions of the films on DVD. Heck, they'd still be offered on VHS for that matter. But it's his sincere desire that the ONLY versions that he'll support from here on out are the ones with the updates to both fx and stories. That's the artist in him speaking. Like I said, we don't have to like what he's doing, but he never asked for our opinion anyway.

Talk to your own inner-artist and ask when the last time it was that you gave a hoot what the general population thought about what you were doing.

force
02-14-2003, 04:29 PM
Anybody got change for a nickel, because Iíd like to put my two cents in.

First, let me say that I am and always have been impressed with the achievements of George Lucas through his movies, especially STAR WARS!

Grant it the movies belong to GL and he should be the one to reap the benefit from its sale and I donít think that any body is disputing that. But as for the part about their Lucasís movies and he can do anything he wants to them. Well in my opinion, once an artist sell their art, its really not just their art anymore. The art belongs to the artist and those who bought the art or even society as a whole. And if ownership does in some way transfer from artist to owner then GL has a responsibility to all those who funded his wealth and society as a whole to preserve the original trilogy in its original form and beauty. After all, we paid for it didnít we!

I submit to you that itís the laws that we create that protects an artistís or inventorís works. But even though itís been a while since I was in my business law class, I can still remember the intent of copy right, trademark, and patent law. The intent was to strike a balance between protecting the rights of the artist or inventor to compensation and the overall good of SOCIETY. That is why artist and inventors are given protection for a limited period of time.

Sure GL can change the Star Wars Movies in the form of a Special Edition to add, alter or delete whatever he wants. But if heís going to do that, he owes society a duty to protect and preserve the original version of those movies in all their splendor.

So in summary, preservation is a good thing, but modifying and altering the content of a piece of movie history in the disguise of preservation and then forcing society to except that and only that in place of the original works is just WRONG! So for those of you who donít care, no big deal, you can buy the special edition. But there are many of us who want, deserve and are entitled to the original version. Yes, I said entitled!

Regards,
force

JediTricks
02-14-2003, 07:01 PM
He did not say he wanted Star Wars to shape the childhoods of millions of people. He doesn't want that, and he doesn't cater to it.Yup, that's why he's gone back to making films he really believes in like THX-1138 no matter how unpopular they are. Oh wait... :rolleyes:


As an artist, he has every right to do whatever he wants with the films.Tell that to all the other artists who worked on the classic trilogy who kept the films from going off the rails when Lucas wanted to have Luke, Han and Leia whistling through the Death Star halls or pointless sequences like "Little Flash Gordon"; artists like Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, Lawrence Kasdan, John Dykstra, John Stears, Irvin Kershner, and many others worked very hard and made lots of vital decisions that helped make the Star Wars trilogy what it was. But I guess to hell with their vital contributions, they don't have billions of dollars.

Every X-wing sequence removed from ANH is someone's hard work down the toilet even though for years they had been able to point up at the screen and say "I did that, I helped make history and change the way we see movies with that".



Originally posted by force
preservation is a good thing, but modifying and altering the content of a piece of movie history in the disguise of preservation and then forcing society to except that and only that in place of the original works is just WRONG!
Force, that was an awesome post, right on!!!

mini-rock
02-14-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by force
Anybody got change for a nickel, because Iíd like to put my two cents in.

First, let me say that I am and always have been impressed with the achievements of George Lucas through his movies, especially STAR WARS!

Grant it the movies belong to GL and he should be the one to reap the benefit from its sale and I donít think that any body is disputing that. But as for the part about their Lucasís movies and he can do anything he wants to them. Well in my opinion, once an artist sell their art, its really not just their art anymore. The art belongs to the artist and those who bought the art or even society as a whole. And if ownership does in some way transfer from artist to owner then GL has a responsibility to all those who funded his wealth and society as a whole to preserve the original trilogy in its original form and beauty. After all, we paid for it didnít we!

I submit to you that itís the laws that we create that protects an artistís or inventorís works. But even though itís been a while since I was in my business law class, I can still remember the intent of copy right, trademark, and patent law. The intent was to strike a balance between protecting the rights of the artist or inventor to compensation and the overall good of SOCIETY. That is why artist and inventors are given protection for a limited period of time.

Sure GL can change the Star Wars Movies in the form of a Special Edition to add, alter or delete whatever he wants. But if heís going to do that, he owes society a duty to protect and preserve the original version of those movies in all their splendor.

So in summary, preservation is a good thing, but modifying and altering the content of a piece of movie history in the disguise of preservation and then forcing society to except that and only that in place of the original works is just WRONG! So for those of you who donít care, no big deal, you can buy the special edition. But there are many of us who want, deserve and are entitled to the original version. Yes, I said entitled!

Regards,
force

GL has already given everyone the chance to own the OT in it's original form by releasing it numerous times on VHS and Laserdisc. He even released the "THX" versions and gave everyone the chance to own it "one last time". The OT is out there, and available to watch anytime.

If you are saying WE are "ENTITLED" to have them on DVD, then I must ask why? I can understand WE want them on DVD, but for me or anyone to say GL owes you, me and the rest of humanity these movies on a specific medium is ludicrous. I just don't see how GL owes ANYONE ANYTHING when the movies are out for everyone to watch already.

One last time means one last time means one last time.

mini-rock
02-14-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Every X-wing sequence removed from ANH is someone's hard work down the toilet even though for years they had been able to point up at the screen and say "I did that, I helped make history and change the way we see movies with that".

Why wouldn't they be able to do that when they are watching these on Laser or VHS?

stillakid
02-14-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by force
Anybody got change for a nickel, because Iíd like to put my two cents in.

First, let me say that I am and always have been impressed with the achievements of George Lucas through his movies, especially STAR WARS!

Grant it the movies belong to GL and he should be the one to reap the benefit from its sale and I donít think that any body is disputing that. But as for the part about their Lucasís movies and he can do anything he wants to them. Well in my opinion, once an artist sell their art, its really not just their art anymore. The art belongs to the artist and those who bought the art or even society as a whole. And if ownership does in some way transfer from artist to owner then GL has a responsibility to all those who funded his wealth and society as a whole to preserve the original trilogy in its original form and beauty. After all, we paid for it didnít we!

I submit to you that itís the laws that we create that protects an artistís or inventorís works. But even though itís been a while since I was in my business law class, I can still remember the intent of copy right, trademark, and patent law. The intent was to strike a balance between protecting the rights of the artist or inventor to compensation and the overall good of SOCIETY. That is why artist and inventors are given protection for a limited period of time.

Sure GL can change the Star Wars Movies in the form of a Special Edition to add, alter or delete whatever he wants. But if heís going to do that, he owes society a duty to protect and preserve the original version of those movies in all their splendor.

So in summary, preservation is a good thing, but modifying and altering the content of a piece of movie history in the disguise of preservation and then forcing society to except that and only that in place of the original works is just WRONG! So for those of you who donít care, no big deal, you can buy the special edition. But there are many of us who want, deserve and are entitled to the original version. Yes, I said entitled!

Regards,
force

Don't get me wrong, I deplore the idea of him potentially infecting the OT with Prequel material.

That said, no artist or creator of anything anywhere has any responsibility to "preserve" anything they make. Take live theater as an example. That exists in the moment, never to be repeated. Even a videotape of the event isn't really the event itself. Just as behind the scenes footage for a movie isn't the movie itself.

The technology of "film" allows it a strip of the stuff to be seen more than once, but not indefinitely. Of course we have the technology to reproduce the images on the film by placing them on another strip of film or on other media, like videotape or digital formats. Consider it a bonus that we can replay our favorite entertainment more than once.

Should George toss out the original versions of these films in favor of updated ones that he prefers as the creator? Why not? They are his to do with as he pleases. Nobody ever said that art had to be preserved to "mark the time" or some other historical babble. Yeah, it's nice when we can save stuff to do that and pass on to future generations. But a requirement? No.

Do I think he should release the OT on DVD? Yeah, it'd be great. I also want the SE versions as well. In the end, I hope to use the technology to cut my version of the Saga as I believe he's flushed the saga down the toilet with much of the Prequel rubbish. But he never asked any of us either...and didn't have to.

derek
02-14-2003, 07:54 PM
i recently found out that when JRR Tolkein wrote the LOTR book, he had to go back and re-write parts of the hobbit to make it fit with his new book...................sound familiar?:confused: :crazed: ;)

JediTricks
02-14-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Why wouldn't they be able to do that when they are watching these on Laser or VHS? VHS and LD deteriorate over time. VHS isn't a high-quality presentation and the non-SE LDs are ridiculously expensive now as well as being on a format that virtually nobody has.

mini-rock
02-14-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
VHS and LD deteriorate over time.

So does DVD. Not nearly as fast, but still.


Originally posted by JediTricks
VHS isn't a high-quality presentation and the non-SE LDs are ridiculously expensive now as well as being on a format that virtually nobody has.

I got my Lasers of the originals for 10 bucks each on eBay. My player was about 80. Not that expensive IMO. And regardless of the quality of VHS or how much laserdiscs cost (or the popularity of it) the people who once worked on the film still have the opportunity, if they wish, to view these films in their original form.

Greyfolk
02-14-2003, 09:23 PM
So lucas won't mind if we make our own DVDs of the Original?
I have the right to preserve my copies right... as long as I don't sell them?

I get this feeling he doesn't have a problem suing his fans.

Beast
02-14-2003, 09:30 PM
As long as you make the copies, for your use only it's not technically against the law. If you make copies and sell them, thereby profiting from them, then you're breaking the law. So go ahead and make DVD copies of the originals for yourself. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Greyfolk
02-14-2003, 09:37 PM
I realize what I typed sounds kinda harsh, sorry about that guys. I hope my impression of GL is totally wrong.. Anyhow, I think I will make my own copies. But first I need to buy the LaserDiska :o;)

El Chuxter
02-15-2003, 02:10 PM
My two cents (better late than never, eh?):

We'd all like Uncie George to preserve the original movies (as well as the '97 Special Editions), and he probably should for various reasons. But he, as the sole copyright owner and creative force behind them, doesn't by any means have to do so.

Artists changing their works after the fact isn't new. Shakespeare did it. Edgar Allen Poe did it, too, changing the last line of his famous poem "Anabel Lee" from "In her tomb by the sounding sea" to "In her tomb by the side of the sea" years after the fact. Ask any critic, Poe fan, or admirer of poetry, and the answer will almost unanimously be that this was a lousy change. Same as Greedo shooting first.

George would stand to make a lot of money re-releasing the earlier versions. I know I'd buy every single version of the movies (which is quite a few; I'll list them in a moment), but if he wants to only release his current revision, that's his prerogative.

And it's our prerogative to find older editions of the movies to keep them in existence. A century from now, it's possible the originals will be the only ones remembered and, like "Anabel Lee," the changes will usually be mentioned only in footnotes.

**
Existing versions of the films (by my count; there may be more):
E4: ANH
1. The Rough Cut (very long, a lot of stuff not on par with the final edit, but probably still worth seeing for die-hard fans)
2. Original 1977 release
3. 1980 (?) re-release: adds "Episode IV: A New Hope" and a different voice for Beru
4. 1997 Special Edition
5. 2007 Archival Edition

E5:ESB
1. Original 1980 release
2. 1997 Special Edition
3. 2007 Archival Edition

E6:ROTJ
1. Original 1983 release
2. 1997 Special Edition
3. 2007 Archival Edition

E1:TPM
1. Original 1999 release
2. 1999 theatrical variant, with little or no blood when Maul is killed
3. 2000 VHS release (a couple of scenes altered slightly)
4. 2001 DVD release (addition of the taxi and major changes to the podrace)
5. 2007 Archival Edition

E2:AOTC
1. Original 2002 release
2. 2002 digital format release
3. 2002 DVD release (I'm pretty sure this is the same as the digital theatrical release, but I'm listing it just in case)
4. 2002 IMAX edit
5. 2007 Archival Edition

Greyfolk
02-15-2003, 02:19 PM
This is a great post! Thanks for breaking it down for us.

Greyfolk
02-15-2003, 02:26 PM
Were these all released in the US?

2-1B
02-15-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Every X-wing sequence removed from ANH is someone's hard work down the toilet even though for years they had been able to point up at the screen and say "I did that, I helped make history and change the way we see movies with that".

"Hard work down the toilet" ? :confused:

They were hired to do a job and were paid for it.

Would you sympathize with a construction worker whose hard work was imploded to make way for a new building?

:crazed:

force
02-17-2003, 11:42 AM
Well as far as the construction worker analogy goes. I probably wouldnít be moved if they were tearing down a simple Convenient Store or just a random building. But, I would feel sorry, maybe a bit cheated, or even mad if a building was imploded and itís architecture or the building itself had been recognized as significant by a group such as a neighborhood association or an architectural society of some sort. In fact, such groups have superseding powers over the owners of such property. They can step in to prevent an owner from tearing down a historical building on the mere fact that it is historical. In the case that an owner want to remodel of renovate a historical building sometimes the owner has to submit plans to a groups such as a neighborhood association.

Listen, all I am saying is that the original star wars trilogy should be preserved and made available for future generations to come just as some building are today. Sure, Lucas can modify the original trilogy as much as he wants and even more and then sell it as a special edition. I mean no offense, but come on if it wasnít for the original movies we wouldnít even be here. So, Lucas has a duty and Iíll even go as far to say a moral duty to make available the original trilogy on DVD. Why, well itís the right thing to do. Itís what a conscientious artist would do!

mini-rock
02-17-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by force
Listen, all I am saying is that the original star wars trilogy should be preserved and made available for future generations to come just as some building are today.


I see where your coming from force, but like I said in my previous post, these "original films" in their "original form" are already available on VHS and Laserdisc. I have had the THX versions on VHS since '95 (I think) and they get played often. In fact over the last couple of years at least one of the OT tapes get's played nightly b/c it's the only way to get my 2 year old daughter to sleep. Then there is Laserdisc. Sure you have to worry about "rot" but that's why I bought myself an extra set of the THX versions and left them unopened. I still havent had any problems with my lasers though. So, those films are already available, and preserved for future generations to see. Getting the OT on DVD would be great, but not a necessity for preservation.



Originally posted by force

I mean no offense, but come on if it wasnít for the original movies we wouldnít even be here.

The prequels have also spawned new fans, who before TPM had never seen any Star Wars films. But for this site, I think you could be right. (Hey, I'm a poet & didn't know it:D)


Originally posted by force

So, Lucas has a duty and Iíll even go as far to say a moral duty to make available the original trilogy on DVD.

I'm still having trouble understanding why it is GL's "moral duty" to make these film available on DVD. Maybe you could explain this part to me, and the rest of SSG forumites, exactly how it is GL's "moral duty". :confused:


Originally posted by force

Itís what a conscientious artist would do!

And lastly you attack him (politely) as an artist. Well, all I have to say is GL didn't have to share his artistic vision with everyone in the first place. I for one 'am glad he did.

The simple fact is we want these on DVD. We are not entiltled, and GL has no "moral duty" to release these films on DVD. What will be the next arguement? that the fate of the Galaxy rests in this one mans artistic vision being released in a particular format?

force
02-18-2003, 11:11 AM
Iíll tell you, I donít usually do much posting, but Iím starting to see how this can be addictive. To Mini-rocks point that the original version of the trilogy are available in other media forms, well of course heís right. Iíll try not to spend much time on this one, because admittedly I my position is weak here. However, Iíd still argue that the original trilogy is not available to the masses. Sure there were or are a select few such as Mini-rock who have purchased two sets of Laserdisc or perhaps many used vhs tapes, but those purchases were made in a vacuum, if you will. Using Mini-rock as my example, each time (uhh) he / she purchases a set of the original version from the limited supply available in the secondary market (i.e. Ebay) they are further limiting the supply, because they are taking supply away from it and no supply is added as this version of the movie is no longer made (excluding bootlegs of course). So, yes Mini-rock and Mini-rockís children will be able to view original trilogy star wars from now to well whenever. But take for example, the fry cook at Burger King who canít afford to gamble his dollar votes over ebay on a used set of VHS tapes or a LaserDisc Player and LDís, so heíll have to settle for showing his child the remade special edition. I can just see them watching it now: ďSon, this perhaps the best movie of all timeÖWait a minute! What the %#*/, Greedo shoots first? Thatís not the way it goes! First let me say no offense meant to any food service workers, in fact I myself was once a fry cook at Burger King. Also, Mini-rock, good for you that you had the foresight to purchase however many copies you wanted to. By no means am I trying to peach restraint.

Speaking to my statement of moral duty. Well, I couldnít help but take it to the shelf. By that I mean The American Heritage College Dictionary shelf.

ďMoral - 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character; ethical. 2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior. 3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous. 4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong. 5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects. 6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidenceÖĒ

I particularly like #2. ďTeaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior.Ē I believe that the original version of the trilogy should be preserve in the unaltered history of the movies that made such an impact on society, as shown by past rewards and the never-ending praise they continue to receive.

Speaking to politely attacking Mr. Lucas, well I think itís hypocritical for him to always bust everyone elseís chops about showing movies his way! His way is of course, to hold theaters to a higher standard because thatís his passion, but he canít seem to see things from the point of view of ALSO preserving the integrity of the originals (other peopleís passion). He wants to be a pioneer, a leader in the industry, well then come on George, lead by example! Donít write over history when you add to it.

In the end it probably doesnít matter what I think or say, because the extent of my discontent will probably only stay with the confines of this site or amongst some of my friends. But maybe GL, will get bored one day and cruise out to SSG, stumble on to these posts and say well this force guy is stretching it a little with his example, but I never saw it that way. Yah, I know itíll never happen.

stillakid
02-18-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by force
Donít write over history when you add to it.


That was an interesting way to put that. :)


Let's look at it this way: Let's say that Leonardo da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa. Convenient because he did. It was completed sometime between 1503 and 1505 using oil paint on wood.

Let's play with an alternate universe for a second and suggest that maybe he had a different "vision" in mind for that portrait that he just couldn't tangibly achieve with the technology and materials that were available. Knowing this, he worked hard day and night until sometime in 1515, a breakthrough!

Here's the rub. Does he A) go back and change the original or B)does he "recreate" the original but with the new technology and materials.

If he chooses A, then the "work" will be as he originally intended and desired, no matter that it will never again be seen in it's original form, the version that had since become a summer blockbuster in museums all over Paris.

If he chooses B, then Leonardo can finally release the "vision" that he had always dreamed about but couldn't achieve without the new technology...however, he will always be haunted by the fact that the Louvre now owns the flawed (in his eyes) original and intends on not only displaying it indefinitely, but also running off a few million prints to be turned into coffee mugs and calendars. Luckily, he is able to buy back the rights to the original painting and announce one final showing for all time. See it now or never.


Yes, the original is very popular and gave him the resources to actually achieve what the original intention was not to mention the resources to retain the rights to the original so that he can dispose of it as he sees fit. So, does Leonardo da Vinci have a "moral" or "civic" duty to not ruin the original painting A)even though it is vastly popular and B)even though it isn't what he wants out there as a representation of his best work?

Does the money the public pays to just see or experience a work of art somehow equate to a down payment on the transfer of ownership from the artist?

Answer this: Should Michael Jackson really be allowed to OWN the Beatles catalogue or should Paul McCartney's bid have been given significantly more weight in light of the fact that he actually created much of the work in question?

stillakid
02-18-2003, 02:10 PM
another...

Beast
02-18-2003, 02:18 PM
Well technically, those sorts of things have already happened Stillakid. Close examination of many famous artist's paintings have revealed earlier paintings beneath some of those famous works. Hell, when they were restoring the original fresco of "The Last Supper", they discovered that there was an earlier version that was repainted over. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
02-18-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Well technically, those sorts of things have already happened Stillakid. Close examination of many famous artist's paintings have revealed earlier paintings beneath some of those famous works. Hell, when they were restoring the original fresco of "The Last Supper", they discovered that there was an earlier version that was repainted over. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

True. But what I didn't touch on was the issue of "release." One might be inspired to wonder why an artist would release a work if it wasn't what he wanted in the first place. That's a great question. I'm not entirely up on my Last Supper history, but one might guess that in a situation like that, the artist did not put the original painting out for a "wide release." So, carry that over to today, it's fair to ask why George chose to make and release his Star Wars films if he knew that A) they weren't what he wanted really, and B) he was going to work towards advancing the technology to make his dreams come true.

The obvious answers are money and his inability to tell the future. He needed the money from what he hoped would be a successful release of the films (A) to finance the R&D to go back and "fix" them later (B). George could have opted to keep this story idea close to the vest and wait until the technology caught up with his vision. But doing so would have resulted in both him probably not having much of a career (at least not at the level he enjoys now) and probably waiting indefinitely for the technology, being that he's the one that instigated the leaps and bounds we've seen in the past 25 years or so.

So he paid the price in artistic compromise in order to fund the future of technology that would (he hoped) would enable him to return to his past inadequate work (as he sees it) so that it more closely resembles the original intention.

The question raised is, does he have the "right" as the creator of the work to "write over history" that the public displayed their love for through hard currency...currency that is in turn being used to go back and effectively "destroy" the work that created the cash flow that allows him to "destroy" the originals?

That's like me drawing a picture, selling you the right to look at it, then me taking that money to buy matches so I can burn it to ashes. If you didn't like the picture to begin with, then you could obviously care less and might even enjoy watching the conflagration. On the other hand, if you liked the picture I drew, then you might stand incredulous as you watched it go up in flames...with the matches that you enabled me to buy to do it.

In a nutshell, that's the situation we have with Star Wars. He's using our money to destroy the thing that we gave it to him for in the first place. He may have the right, but it's a decision that is bound to raise the ire of more than a few.

force
02-18-2003, 04:03 PM
Well JarJarBinks, they were wrong too! Uhh just kidding about them being wrong. I truly don't wish to delve into paintings, because I just don't have the background or care to acquire it. Don't get me wrong; I dig paintings and museums, just not enough to study it. Now I say this with the apprehension that someone who is an artist my turn their nose up at my observations. If they did I would say to them ok lets just say that a person who sits down to eat isn't a chef, could the still posses the abilities to determine if something the eat tastes good or bad? Yes, they could. I'm not trying to talk down; I've just met a few pompous artists in my day. Now after my confession of not being an artist, let me take a stab at the scenario JJB laid out.

Ok, so "The Last Supper" had an earlier version. Fine, but for it to have been painted over by the original artist (I'm assuming) that would probably mean the original artist still owned the artwork. Soooo, if he still owns it, he probably never sold it in the first place. I don't know, maybe the original "The Last Supper" just sucked? How would I know, I'm not trained in art. Here it is: original artist creates a painting, he still owns it, he doesn't like it the way it is, he paints over it to fix it. I have no problem with that. Why you ask, well he didn't make killing selling admission to see his art, sell likeness of his art, collect royalties, praises of achievement and awards. To only then turn around, rework the original art to making it something that it wasn't to start with. And then essentially lock up the key to the originals and throw it away.

Beast
02-18-2003, 04:13 PM
Regardless of any of that, again it all returns to these being owned by Lucas. We may have paid him for watching them, but that doesn't give us, mere fans any right to think we can dictate what he does with the movies. We can complain, scream, protest, and make death threats against him, but in the end it won't matter. They are his property, and he has a right to make them match up with his original vision for the movies. :)

Haven't we heard Lucas say, from the very beginning many many times that the story is what's important. That the special effects are just a means of telling a story. Didn't we fall in love with the story and the charecters, not the effects that brought the story to life. If it was as hollow as just loving the effects, we wouldn't be here now. We would have moved on to movies with better effects. If Lucas wants to update the effects, to better tell the story, it's only going to help newer generations fall in love with them. Just like we did.

The special effects can be mindblowing, but if you don't care about the story and the charecters, then you're not going to care about the film. You're not going to invest 26+ years of your life loving a film and it's charecters like us Star Wars fanatics do. It's not the effects we fell in love with, it was the story and it's charecters. It's no different then a book, re-issued with new illustrations. You don't stop loving the book, because the artwork has changed. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

force
02-18-2003, 04:25 PM
I don't want to seem cornball, but I got to call something before someone else does.

Stillakid had a great post. My last post wasn't plagiarized, just simply replied before I saw Stillakid's post and by the time I finished putting my thoughts down, well that post was already in. I just write this because I didn't want the similarity of my post to the other to seem shady when it was just a coincidence. Back to the issue.

stillakid
02-18-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Haven't we heard Lucas say, from the very beginning many many times that the story is what's important. That the special effects are just a means of telling a story. Didn't we fall in love with the story and the charecters, not the effects that brought the story to life. If Lucas wants to update the effects, to better tell the story it's only going to help newer generations fall in love with them.

The special effects can be mindblowing, but if you don't care about the story and the charecters, then you're not going to care about the film. You're not going to invest 26+ years of your life loving a film and it's charecters like us Star Wars fanatics do. It's not the effects we fell in love with, it was the story and it's charecters. It's no different then a book, re-issued with new illustrations. You don't stop loving the book, because the artwork has changed. :)


Yes. Exactly. And this is precisely what I've been trying to convey all these many months as I generously point out to the standard filmgoing audience just why the Prequels are subpar. The artwork hasn't been in question (aside from the ANH: SE Jabba). It's the general lack of solid storytelling and weak characters in the Prequels that people are reacting to, even if they don't consciously realize it .

To use force's post as a lead off:

Originally posted by force
a person who sits down to eat isn't a chef, could the still posses the abilities to determine if something the eat tastes good or bad? Yes, they could. .... I'm not trying to talk down; I've just met a few pompous artists in my day.
Perhaps I am personally a "pompous artist." But I've NEVER told anyone whether they should "like" or "dislike" something. If it floats your boat, then have at it. HOWEVER, there is a HUGE difference between, as you say, a chef and the guy who just eats the food. Both may eat the same thing and come up with the same general conclusion (good or bad), but only the chef will have the training and the knowledge to tell you why it was good or bad. ("Ahh, too much coriander.")

Same for movies. Any Joe-6 Pack or D&D Master can pay their $8 bucks and watch a movie. They decide if they like it or not. Great. The world keeps spinning. But unless that guy/girl has taken the time and effort to sit down and actually write a screenplay or story and/or seriously break stories down into their fundamental elements, he won't have a real clue as to why the movie worked or didn't.

So here we have an original trilogy which sparked the imaginations and opened the wallets of millions upon millions of paying customers. George's mantra indeed was that the story was the important thing. But it is clear to see with the Prequels (based on lots of evidence, not all of it onscreen) that his focus has changed. The technology is no longer just a tool. He's actively inventing reasons to push the envelope and sell the changes to the rest of Hollywood...at the expense of telling the story.

It's this prevailing attitude of his that threatens the integrity of that which brought him to this place. Had he approached this new generation of Star Wars films with the same goals that he claimed the first were made from, perhaps the general populace (apart from the most die-hard fans) wouldn't dream of questioning his decisions.

But the "death" of the original OT is just a symtom of a larger problem. On the whole, people do not like the Prequels and the fear is that whatever is driving Lucas now will manifest itself into the films that they grew up loving and wish to pass on to their own children.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to do this, but his motivations thus far have included, to a degree, the necessity of monetary return and I'd suggest that if he "fixes" the OT too much, he won't see the cash that he otherwise could. But, part of the problem for "us," is that he is so wealthy right now, that he doesn't need any of these films to make money anymore. His motivations can be, and appear to be, entirely selfish. He's truly making these for himself (yet ironically second-guessing what the "fans" want to see) as any artist should.

It's just an unfortunate conundrum with no answer.

Beast
02-18-2003, 05:02 PM
They maybe subpar to you, as your quite a bit older then the wide-eyed young-in that sat in front of a screen and was taken thru the window of Uncle Georgie's mind to a galaxy far far away. While many of the OT fans, don't enjoy the prequels as much, there are millions of kids that enjoy them more then the OT.

Just as there are millions of fans, who arn't fanatic about the OT that enjoy the prequels for the same reasons that they loved the OT. The story is far from subpar, it's actually more complex then the OT ones. In the OT you had good versus evil, but in the PT you have that, as well as shades of grey. :)

Frankly it's a much more involving story, because it's more grand and sweeping then the OT. Do I like the OT any less, because of the PT. Hell no, I love them all. But the PT has a lot more depth storywise then the OT ever thought of having. But they all work together to tell a grand sweeping story. Once you let go of your preconcieved notions of what in your mind, "should have" happened.

He's still using the effects, as the means to tell the story. Even if you don't like the story, the story is still there and it's still strong. Sometimes it's sad to see so many people have grown up so much, and no longer can just enjoy a movie. Yet they spend the majority of their lives, complaining about them. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

plasticfetish
02-18-2003, 05:09 PM
This is is good.

Originally posted by stillakid
Let's play with an alternate universe for a second and suggest that maybe he had a different "vision" in mind for that portrait ...
There is a school of thought when it comes to "art" that there aren't really any mistakes.
Most artists work from an original idea that they hold in their mind and then it grows, evolves and changes as it takes physical form. What Leonardo may have first imagined with the Mona Lisa, the idea that sparked his desire to make the painting, may have in fact been the same or even entirely different from what ended up on canvas. The end result, given my own experience with the process of making art, comes from many things. Much of it does in fact have to do with the artists physical limitations. Could Leonardo technically render the image he wanted to? Did he have the hand eye coordination at the time to flesh his idea out? Once he was able to get it out there, did seeing it made real cause him to have second thoughts?

Most artists go through a process that involves acting on and being manipulated by a great many things. The metaphor of the Mona Lisa vs. Star Wars (or a painting vs. a film) isn't a bad one. There is always going to be a certain amount of anxiety in the mind of an "artist" when it comes to being "finished" with a piece of art. You can't help but look back at what you've done and think, "hmmm, maybe that could have been stronger." The issue is, once you've stepped back and said ... "OK, I'm done!" ... are you really done? What makes a painting like the Mona Lisa valuable or even precious is the fact that it represents a singularity of thought and effort. One idea made real with the end result being one unique work of art which can represent a great many things. It is precious because no matter how hard anyone tries (the original artist included) it can not be truly duplicated. There's more than simple mechanical skill involved in bringing that painting to life ... it initially took a little part of the artist soul to make it the icon that it is.

But... what about film? What about Star Wars? Film is unique in that it is a mass produced form of art with no strict boundaries. Film itself has done a lot to change the world of art. Can something that basically ends up being lights on a wall be art? This sort of question has caused artist for decades now to rethink the importance of the physical nature of their work. Warhol looked at the Mona Lisa and observed that the "art" wasn't so much the physical painting, but what it represented to the world. The Mona Lisa is more than just the sum of its parts. Leonardo's creation has truly evolved to the status of popular "pop" icon. It has grown to be more than just that one precious canvas into something that lives on its own in the minds of a great many people. The art is in the uniqueness of this phenomenon, in the absurdity and power of it. So, where's the "art" in Star Wars? I think it comes from the power that "we" the fans have given it. We've elevated it far beyond being a series of fun films. We've collectively given it iconic status and now it exists as much more than what the original artist could have ever imagined (and I think he's admitted this, huh?) I would say that this is what makes it art. The effect that it has on people over short and long periods of time decides its value ... determines its importance as a work of art.

The problem we have before us, is that we have a conflict between the original artist and the people that in fact made him an artist. (When I say "people" I'm not necessarily talking about the "fans", I'm talking about the sum of all persons that saw and reacted to what Lucas initially created and then presented to the world.) The artist now wants to step backward and try to regain control of his original work by editing what he first gave to those people. Lucas, to me, seems to commit both the biggest blunder and the biggest sin that an artist can commit. Firstly, he's messing with a good thing. People obviously liked the original versions of the films and who's to say that they aren't going to hate any later versions. (In this case, there seems to be some of that.) Secondly, he devalues the "icon" status that his films have received by changing them. The newer versions are not simply the old versions dusted off, cleaned up and re-hung on the wall with better lighting. The newer versions are not "art". They are a different beast and if Lucas decides to let the old versions fade into oblivion, as is his right as the individual who legally controls these works, then I think it is a mistake. The newer versions do not have the power behind them that the original versions did. The newer versions will never represent anything more in comparison to the original release of the film than what a souvenir poster of the Mona Lisa represents to the original.

-pf
(Struggling artist, pop culture junky.)

JediTricks
02-18-2003, 07:14 PM
First off, some great posts in this thread lately, but PF's post just blows me away. I only wish I was as articulate and bright to convey a POV on this issue as he.

Secondly, Stilla makes an interesting point, "He's truly making these for himself (yet ironically second-guessing what the "fans" want to see) as any artist should". I have to wonder if the billionaire Lucas is making these for that guy or for the starving USC student Lucas.

Finally, let me ask every person here, if Da Vinci somehow came back from the dead and said "I always wanted the Mona Lisa to have strawberry blonde hair but that color wasn't available at the time, I'm gonna fix that now", would you allow it? Would the world?

plasticfetish
02-18-2003, 07:33 PM
Thanks.

Whatever zombie Da Vinci wants he can have. Just as long as he doesn't eat my brains.

mini-rock
02-18-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Finally, let me ask every person here, if Da Vinci somehow came back from the dead and said "I always wanted the Mona Lisa to have strawberry blonde hair but that color wasn't available at the time, I'm gonna fix that now", would you allow it? Would the world?

If he gave the world a chance to own the original "one last time" then he could do whatever he wants to it.

Beast
02-18-2003, 10:21 PM
Exactly, it's not like Lucas or Zombie Da Vinci are asking for all the old copies of their work back and destroying them. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

plasticfetish
02-18-2003, 11:17 PM
I think we all know that if Da Vinci showed up at the Louvre with his paint kit and reeking of the crypt that the French would be on him like camembert on a cracker. Well, maybe not ... they'd probably just ignore him like they do everything else. On the other hand, I like to think that when zombie Lucas turns up reeking of whatever mansion in Marin County that he's been hiding in for the past 25 years, that someone would have the good sense to give him a nudge before things get too far out of hand. (OK. I'm just kidding ... of course he hasn't been hiding, he's been very active.)

mini-rock
02-18-2003, 11:51 PM
Don't worry about GL. He's gonna live forever.:D

Beast
02-18-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Don't worry about GL. He's gonna live forever.:D
Is he gonna learn how to fly?? :crazed: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
02-19-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Is he gonna learn how to fly?? :crazed: :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LOL!!

HIGH!!:):p:D:crazed:

force
02-19-2003, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Exactly, it's not like Lucas or Zombie Da Vinci are asking for all the old copies of their work back and destroying them. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Don't worry, I'm sure Lucas has a team of lawyers working on a scheme to get the old copies back. In all probability I imagine their sifting through court cases all the way back to the renaissance. Once he has all the old copies, he'll be one step closer to his quest of making it as if the original version never existed. Weíll be left with only our written history and memories of the originals. Ė A stretch, maybe, but who really knows?

stillakid
02-19-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Once you let go of your preconcieved notions of what in your mind, "should have" happened.

He's still using the effects, as the means to tell the story. Even if you don't like the story, the story is still there and it's still strong. Sometimes it's sad to see so many people have grown up so much, and no longer can just enjoy a movie. Yet they spend the majority of their lives, complaining about them. :rolleyes:

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

You know, you may be right about one thing. While I truly didn't go into TPM with my own preconceived notions about what I should see, it's likely that my post-viewing opinions were formed based on what George had previously told us what we would see. So yes, I suppose I had preconceived notions, but they were based on his information...not my own. Because of the precedent that he himself set with the OT and the "ideas" he leaked out about the Prequels in the 1980's, I draw the conclusion that he's written a far weaker pre-story than I know he had in mind to begin with. Once I recognized that, I made the honest attempt to figure out what other external "motivations" might have made him do it this way. All artists are influenced by a myriad of things. I think that the combination of age, time, money, kids, a messy divorce, ego, and god knows what else all contributed to the "sub-par" effort we've seen in the Prequels.

In another thread, you guys labeled George a "genius." Maybe he was at one time. Back in the day, he had the ability to "see" a large story then gather the hundreds of specialists around him to see the vision realized. That's what a "director" is. It's not about forcing his own opinions and limited skill set upon a concept. It's about directing. Truly directing. Find the people that can help. Find the people that can do things better than you can. Whether it be the computer effects guy, the Steadicam operator, or the screenwriter. Each of those is a skill that takes time to learn and hopefully master. A director doesn't have to know how to do those things well. That's not his job. So even if George is the source for the overall vision, it doesn't mean that he has the ability to sit down and write the details of it in a well-crafted screenplay. Da Vinci painted his own work, but it was a single artistic entity. A film draws on a vast array of disciplines. No one person can be masterful enough to do it all. George knew that back then. But something happened to him in the interim.


Originally posted by plasticfetish
The end result, given my own experience with the process of making art, comes from many things. Much of it does in fact have to do with the artists physical limitations. Could Leonardo technically render the image he wanted to? Did he have the hand eye coordination at the time to flesh his idea out? Once he was able to get it out there, did seeing it made real cause him to have second thoughts?

Most artists go through a process that involves acting on and being manipulated by a great many things. The metaphor of the Mona Lisa vs. Star Wars (or a painting vs. a film) isn't a bad one. There is always going to be a certain amount of anxiety in the mind of an "artist" when it comes to being "finished" with a piece of art. You can't help but look back at what you've done and think, "hmmm, maybe that could have been stronger." The issue is, once you've stepped back and said ... "OK, I'm done!" ... are you really done?

That's an excellent point. I didn't mean to imply that DaVinci had a singular vision in mind and set out to do that one thing. I myself have "finished" several screenplays. The funny thing about these things is that even in script form, they are never really "finished." You just have to get them to a point where they are "ready" to be presented to someone else. Everyone works differently, but I begin with, as they say, a "high-concept." After that, I figure out what kind of characters would be involved in that story in the most interesting way. Other people begin with interesting characters then figure out what these people would be doing. The details change constantly, but they all have to be in service of that bigger idea that you've started with. If any one element is just tossed in for the sake of itself, you end up with a big mess. It's an ongoing process, and in the world of filmmaking, it doesn't stop there...



Originally posted by plasticfetish
But... what about film? What about Star Wars? Film is unique in that it is a mass produced form of art with no strict boundaries. Film itself has done a lot to change the world of art. Can something that basically ends up being lights on a wall be art?
Film is even more unique than that. It is the one art form yet created by mankind that has drawn on nearly every artistic and technological advance. Whether it's wardrobe design or matte paintings, high-speed cameras or prosthetic makeup, there really hasn't been one area of development that hasn't been used on film at least once. But not a one of these elements exists in a vacuum when used to make a movie. So while the final result is merely shadows dancing on a wall, the intricacy and cooperation of all the art and technology (and high-finance) to make this "one thing" is more extraordinary than most casual moviegoers ever think about. (Honestly, with the millions of things that could go wrong anywhere in the process, it's a wonder that anything ever gets made.)



Originally posted by plasticfetish
The art is in the uniqueness of this phenomenon, in the absurdity and power of it. So, where's the "art" in Star Wars? I think it comes from the power that "we" the fans have given it. We've elevated it far beyond being a series of fun films. We've collectively given it iconic status and now it exists as much more than what the original artist could have ever imagined (and I think he's admitted this, huh?) I would say that this is what makes it art. The effect that it has on people over short and long periods of time decides its value ... determines its importance as a work of art.
I'm not sure if I agree with this. I will think about it some more, but for the moment, I'd have to say that the fans have not turned the saga into "art." It was that before anyone ever saw it. What "we" did was turn it into a valuable commodity. The "value" of such a thing is that it is given the power to reach more people. The audience didn't turn it into art. They responded to the inherent art within the films thus making it more accessible to more people at the time...and now across the generations as the creator continues to tell the story. And he was given the power to do that only because "we" turned his "art" into a "commodity."



Originally posted by plasticfetish
The newer versions do not have the power behind them that the original versions did. The newer versions will never represent anything more in comparison to the original release of the film than what a souvenir poster of the Mona Lisa represents to the original.
Very nicely said. Had he done these the way he is wanting to do them now, we would have nothing to compare them too. Ignorance can be bliss, but he already let the genie out of the bottle. He can hope the old copies fade and disintegrate, and in time all of us "old-codgers" will die along with our memories of what the OT was. But you can't undo a thing. It's already out there and George is already doomed to be remembered as the guy that f'd up something really good by creating these Prequels. And it's bound to get a lot worse.

JediTricks
02-21-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Back in the day, he had the ability to "see" a large story then gather the hundreds of specialists around him to see the vision realized. That's what a "director" is. Actually, I believe that's what a "producer" is, but Lucas was very hands-on with ANH since he was director, writer, producer, and editor. Lucas also knew enough to bring in a second talented producer (Gary Kurtz) to help him make important decisions on who to hire and how to spend the money to make the film.

stillakid
02-21-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Actually, I believe that's what a "producer" is, but Lucas was very hands-on with ANH since he was director, writer, producer, and editor. Lucas also knew enough to bring in a second talented producer (Gary Kurtz) to help him make important decisions on who to hire and how to spend the money to make the film.

Yes and no. The Producer is there to facilitate the mechanics of getting all the necessary elements gathered. That includes a shootable script. The project does not, or at least in theory, shouldn't revolve around the Director. He's just as much a cog in the wheel as is the Dolly Grip or Craft Service Guy. Everyone has a part to play. If any one of them begins to think that the project revolves around them (usually happens to actors or directors) then the project may be doomed. The Director's job is to manage the specialized departments...not to do their jobs for them. The project is supposed to be about the idea. Even the screenwriter may get it wrong. But the Directors job is definitely not supposed to be about forcing his or her absolute "vision" upon the idea. Whether he likes it or not, with so many artistic and technical disciplines involved, it is a collaborative effort the whole way through.

JediTricks
02-21-2003, 08:35 PM
"Whether he likes it or not, with so many artistic and technical disciplines involved, it is a collaborative effort the whole way through."

No no, you must be mistaken, the great and powerful Lucoz has made it quite clear that he and he alone is the only person qualified enough to make these movies happen or un-happen if he so chooses. :rolleyes:

That's the attitude I feel like we get from George Lucas every time he makes a change for "how it IS" and pretends like the past didn't happen, and it's not just in these fictional films either, he's done it in his personal and business dealings. It's "funny" how pretty much nobody knows who Tomlinson Holman is even though we enjoy the fruits of his labor with every THX-qualified theater product.

mini-rock
02-21-2003, 09:34 PM
HEY! Can somebody get this guy some crackers to go with his whine?!!:p

As for Thomlinson Holman should everyone know who he is? Do we need to know who created DD or DTS? Or what about Mr. Mendez and the rest of the QC department at M&K Sound? Why don't we hear their names being said in every household? Fact is these people are hired to do a job, that's it.

JediTricks
02-21-2003, 09:45 PM
If it weren't for Tomlinson Holman, THX would have been just another George Lucas pipe-dream, yet the THX official company history has almost completely wiped his name off their texts.


By the way, thanks so much for trivializing my point of view, your smug comments really do make up for your lack of a genuinely well-stated and reasonable opposing opinion. :rolleyes: :p

mini-rock
02-21-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
If it weren't for Tomlinson Holman, THX would have been just another George Lucas pipe-dream, yet the THX official company history has almost completely wiped his name off their texts.

"Almost" but not completely. Anyone who who gives a hoot about THX anyway knows the history behind it, and if TH didn't do it someone else would have. Same for the future 10.2 surround sound he's got goin.


Originally posted by JediTricks
By the way, thanks so much for trivializing my point of view, your smug comments really do make up for your lack of a genuinely well-stated and reasonable opposing opinion. :rolleyes: :p

Uhhhhhhhhhh thanks!;):D And your welcome.:p

circleoftheforce
03-08-2003, 09:47 PM
George will ruin it. I'm trying to locate an original trilogy on LD so I can get the original on DVD...I'll post as soon as I figure it out. Maybe we can set up a send me a DVD-RW and I send out old trilogies...

Beast
03-09-2003, 04:07 AM
Nice, just sign up and use the forums to advertise selling your crummy craptastic T-Shirts. Sir Steve frowns on that you know, since it's using his paid for server space to advertise and sell your crap. Go peddle your stuff elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Back on topic, there could be an extremly small ray of hope in the far future for those of you that do want the original theatrical editions. The recent issue of Entertainment Weekly had an interview with Jeanne Cole. Who is Lucasfilm's publicist. :)

Still, Lucasfilm hasn't closed the door completely on the original trilogy. "Yes, we do know that a lot of fans are saying, 'Oh, please release the original theatrical versions as well as the the special editions' " says Cole (Lucasfilm publicist Jeanne Cole). "We hear them, but we don't have any immediate plans. Our first focus right now is to get Episode III done".
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
03-09-2003, 11:03 AM
That IS good! Yeah I definitely consider this good news since before it was a firm no, and now this. :D

Pendo
03-17-2003, 08:13 AM
http://www.originaltrilogy.com/

Sign the petition. There are hundreds of petitions like this one around the web, but I feel that this one will have more look than most because of the sites involved :).

PENDO!

mini-rock
03-17-2003, 10:04 AM
Cool Pendo. Yeah I agree, this is the way a petition should be done. I have signed it, and I believe I posted a link back on page 2 or 3. Who knows, maybe SS will want to get SSG on there also.:D

Masterjedi73
03-20-2003, 01:37 PM
Has anyone purchased any of the original trilogy DVDs off of Ebay? Are they any good?

thanks

DarthChuckMc
03-20-2003, 02:34 PM
I have a set. The quality is surprisingly good. I think they are ripped from the LDs. The set I have is ANH:SE, TESB:SE, and ROTJ: original. The ROTJ has the full Lap'te Nek(sp) music video, too. Some guy on ebay has made custom DVD covers for the OT that are in the same style as the Official Ep 1 & 2 covers. I saw a vendor at Megacon a few weeks back that had the OT on DVD, but would only sell them in a set for $50. I would've shelled out the $$, but seeing as I already have ROTJ, I passed.

Clint Torres
03-24-2003, 04:19 PM
WE ALL LOVE THE OG TRILOGY, but come on...we have to go with the master on this one...GEORGE wants the new editions to be the only ones remembered, right? Well, whatever...so long as he includes all of the original stuff (HAN making first and ONLY shot in cantina with Greedo, OG scenes of Tatooine w/o CG...and all that other jazz) on the bonus disc, I will be fine. LUCAS has already expressed his final opinion about how the original trilogy would have been these new films if only he had the resources back then. LET THE MASTER KEEP ON TRUCKIN' I SAY! IT AINT THE MONA LISA, ITS STAR WARS!!! If the maker so wishes to manipulate for the sake of his vision (?) let it be I say, let it be.

p.s. WHY IN THE HELL would anyone want crappy digi transfers of the original un-restored films? I guarantee there will be no further digi transfers of those original ones...nope, no sirreee...if you still want them that bad I suggest pirated DVD copies made from the LASERDISCS. They are decent and reasonably priced. But then again, no REAL STAR WARS FREAK would take money away from the franchise, now would they. Shame on you.

El Chuxter
03-24-2003, 04:44 PM
This is starting to get pretty messy with all the OT DVD threads, so I'm merging all but the one about the originaltrilogy.com petition into one. :)

Clint Torres
03-25-2003, 02:22 AM
MY GOD THAT IS BEARY DISTURBING. BEARY, BEARY DISTURBING.