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Pendo
02-24-2003, 07:44 AM
I came across this website about Hell, don't know if any of you have seen it. I'm not a religious man, and I don't even intend this topic to turn into a religious thread so if it does can a mod please close it?

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

This site has totaly creeped me out though, especially the sound clip in the middle of the page. I have never considered the existence of hell until I read this site, and it makes me fear that members of my family that have passed away could be down there (even though I don't think they did anything to deserve it).

What do you guys think about hell?

PENDO!

Eternal Padawan
02-24-2003, 09:42 AM
So...Hell is filled with (lifts pinky to mouth) Liquid Hot Magma?

:crazed:

Old Fossil
02-24-2003, 11:02 AM
That website could easily have been constructed by a more or less enlightened clergyman of, say, the sixteenth century.

I love the quote from the 14th century traveller's journal. (We all know how reliable physicians were in the 1300's.) But if Caspar Peucer was famous, I wonder what he was famous for.

This all reflects, more or less, cutting edge Medieval Fundamentalism. Fits in nicely if you are both Christian and still believe the Earth is the center of the universe. Fits in wonderfully if you are a recently-converted Scandinavian Christian who still has a fondness for Thor and the old crew. Consider this:

HEL: Daughter of Loki, given the rule of the kingdom of death, name also used for the kingdom itself. -- H.R. Ellis Davidson, "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe," 232: Names and Sources (my emphasis)

The startling revelations from Terry Watkins' website truly makes the earth's surface into Midgard, Middle-earth. Heaven/Valhalla should be somewhere... let's see... east of the Moon and west of the Sun.

Don't get me wrong: as a sinner who strives to lead a Christian life, I believe in (and dread) the possibility of Hell. I just doubt that it's as conveniently located as that website would have us believe.

(Besides, we all know that our world is not the only planetary body with volcanic activity -- the Jovian moon Io comes to mind.)

mabudonicus
02-24-2003, 11:09 AM
This should keep it clean:).....
When I was maybe 5 years old I lived pretty far up north, and there wasn't really much to do, seeing as there was a lot of dangerous stuff like rivers and waterfalls and cliffs and stuff keeping us from being allowed to go anywhere, so mostly I made earthworks in my huge sand/dirt pile... one day my friend and I were diggin a hole as deep as possible (a classic pastime), and we came upon a little sort of cavern (in retrospect, I realized that it was left over from an excavation the previous summer which had to be filled back in due to building code problems) at the bottom of the hole.... my friend (who I always thought was a crybaby) started freaking out about how we had dug down to hell, and he was babbling and crying and stuff, and I (not being allowed at the local sunday school due to excessive inquisitiveness) was intrigued.... I was asking him "what do you mean" and after hearing that the devil lived there and it was all firey and stuff, I even got excited.... I had my head down in the hole, looking through, and he was all yelling about how we had to fill the hole in.... eventually I figured he must have had a good enough reason to fear, so I helped him fill it back up, but for years I believed that I'd found hell, knew where it was and had actually seen it... I guess that's why I love Heavy Metal so much...
Anyone else seen it??? :):):)

Don't worry Pendo, most of the stuff on the net is bunk anyways, I used to scare the heck out of myself watching That's Incredible, when they'd show ghost stories and have little audio clips of "ghosts"....... they don't allow tape recorders OR cameras in hell, it's just like going to see a concert, trust me, I know where the place is even

Fulit
02-24-2003, 11:16 AM
As I tell just about anyone concerning these concepts of religion, and heaven and hell, you'd probably some up with some pretty wacky stuff too, if you fasted in caves in the desert and had no scientific knowledge of the world around you.

Patient Zero
02-24-2003, 12:36 PM
Supersticious lunacy! I am going to go break some mirrors while walking under latters and wear some garlic to warn off vampires.

2-1B
02-24-2003, 12:48 PM
I don't think it really even matters . . . 257 people killed today during an earthquake in China? :cry:
Sounds like hell to me . . . :cry:

Lord Malakite
02-24-2003, 01:50 PM
That site looked like nothing more than religious propaganda with all Bible quoting and what not. The sound clip didn't really bother me either. I found myself laughing at it actually. It was nothing more than the various sounds caused by the drill being on and grinding against the various layers of dirt and rock.

James Boba Fettfield
02-24-2003, 04:15 PM
I hear heavy metal is Hell's soundtrack. If so, then I am ready for the damning of my soul.

EDIT- http://www.av1611.org/rock.html

Ha ha! They play Twisted Sister in Hell!

EDIT 2- http://www.av1611.org/666/rock_666.html

Oh man, just look at that stuff. Take a scroll down and read what they say about the snake off the cover of Metallica's self titled album. I think whoever is writing their garbage needs to research where that snake really came from.

Lord Malakite
02-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Try this one. It reminds me of an episode of the Church Lady from SNL.

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html

That settles it, Terry Watkins (the writer of all these wonderful links :rolleyes: ), is a religious fanatic IMHO. Believing in God, Satan, Heaven, and Hell (or anything else for that matter) is all right. But when you carry it this far, trying to scare people into believing what you believe by telling them they are going to burn for an eternity if they don't, is going a little too far.

The Overlord Returns
02-24-2003, 05:13 PM
Well...that site was good for one thing...a nice, end of day chuckle....

I mean...these near death "I went to hell" experiences can be explained the same way the near death "I saw a great white light" experiences can,.,,,

During these experiences..."circuits" in the brain short out....the same "circuits" that may cause people to have their life "flash" before their eyes during these near death occurances....

Hell is still, IMO, a creation of religious higher ups to hold over the populace.....do this...and you're going to the wors place EVER!!

Likewise, heaven is the reward presented to followers to keep them in line...do what we say...and you go here...

Beast
02-24-2003, 05:20 PM
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches every thing you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time. But he loves you! He loves you and he needs money. He always needs money. He's all-powerful, all perfect, all-knowing and all-wise, but somehow . . . he just can't handle money. -- George Carlin

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jargo
02-24-2003, 06:19 PM
without having any hard facts at my fingertips, I recall someone who had been a priest telling me of this regardin theology and the devil. In the twelfth/thirteenth century a summit of religious leaders was held in Spain. During this summit the official imagery of the devil was created. Designed to be the most emotive and potent imagery they designed the horned and cloven hooved one with trident (popular evil imagery at the time) and the ruddy complexion.
Considering that the bible has been altered so many times since the original scrolls the image of the devil was pretty easy to squeeze into christian moral teachings as a way to subjucate the uneducated masses with fear. The devils playground was hell, the underworld. A place that ties into any european, asian, or nordic mythology. the mystery plays soon appeared and ir was through the medium of travelling morality plays that the devil found his way into popular belief systems.
It was just a bunch of opportunistic and power hungry old men who created all this nonsense people are expected to adhere to. Most notably the catholic church. A religion that exists purely through the use of fear to keep the downtrodden downtrodden.

Hell: it's anyone who tries to control your life. fight the power.

JediTricks
02-24-2003, 08:17 PM
My sister was raised by a different family than myself and got a different kind of belief system from them. She has lived a less-than-perfect life and done some stupid things as most of us have as we trek across the path of our lives. However, she believes strongly that she is going to hell for these mistakes she's made and has been quietly yet deeply tormented by this for many years now. In her later teen years, she switched religious beliefs a few times but always received the same message about how she was going to hell. She pretty much accepts it now and lets it sit in her heart.

Seems to me like hell is a state of mind, so when you die, you can exist forever in that last moment and your fate is determined by what you carry with you.


"Evil is the absence of empathy" - Sgt. Joe Friday (philosophy from TV, ain't the modern world glorious?)

2-1B
02-25-2003, 01:19 AM
Does anyone recall the mid-1980s SNL commercial parody "advertising" Hell? :)

I think I have the jingle still in my head:

"Where you're going, you've always known it!
Where you're going, you're on your way!
Where you're going - you're going to pay!"

and then Phill Hartman's voice enters with "yes, you're going to hell" and after that I can't remember anything . . .

oh well, I always found it funny. :)

Tycho
02-25-2003, 03:41 AM
Ah....I've been waiting to discuss this!

The real question that has confounded man is what happens to us when we die?

Is there anything there (left of us)? This is the soul or consciousness or lack thereof.

But this thread is about Hell, so I have a theory on where we get that story from.

1) The earth was made from a chunk of stellar matter (from our sun) that cooled and landed into orbit around the solar system.

2) So everything here, all our elements, originally came from the sun - a great ball of fire. Fire is energy but we are both energy and matter. However, matter is composed of energy elements like electrons, protons, and neutrons that combine into their own temporarily locked orbits around communities of each other. Thus matter can become transfered into energy, (like when you eat food), and energy is actually the building blocks of matter).

3) When we die, our bodies decompose. They are eaten by bacteria or canibalized by other cells in our bodies that ultimately consume themselves. (or we are creamated or digested by an animal). So our matter is broken down into energy. We are composed mostly of water (the human body is like 97% water I think), so that is a very simple kind of matter to evaporate, etc. The harder minerals that we consume in our food remains as bone, but that too can actually be broken down into its organic elements (that is what soil is made of - as it has rock minerals in it). Stone can be broken apart my persistent plant roots, like they dig through sidewalks, which further crumble from exposure to heat and cold. Animals chew stones to help digestion. They are broken down by stomach acids in animals that chew dirt. Every part of matter is transferable back to energy.

4) Thus if our bodies return to a state of energy, we chemically, physically return to the elements that our parts existed as in the state of fire (in the origin of all our chemical makeup - the sun). So yes, we return to a lake of fire "state" - though not actually the sun itself.

5) If you were trying to explain my 4 points above to someone else, regardless of whether you agreed with them, your version, without being careful, would be different from my version. Eventually, that is how rumors spread, or things get warped. If you are a parent and explain my theory to a child, I'm quite certain you'd simplify, or be up half the night teaching a 4 year-old kid bio-chemistry. Furthermore, you might want to read posts that are shorter, so you'd just grab the gist of what I said.

Sooner than later, it could be generalized that I said everyone returns to a lake of fire. It is the nature of our existence.

This could be reworded to say we are born to a bad nature (if we consider burning forever bad) and thus we are born to sin (to deserve a bad ending) and the only way we can escape this (interpreted as unpleasant) fate is to be "saved."

Enter Jesus, God-mythology, etc. to alleviate fear of natural chemical breakdowns following our life expiring :rolleyes:

This is warped into a social-order doctrine by those who can weild it. They may not believe any science has anything to do with it. It just serves their purposes, be your priests, rabbis, and pastors true-believers, or not. Since at least the fall of Rome, modern religions have served to broker power and control the masses. But they could be essentially based on truths, just not the truths they claim they're based on - the fictional characters of worship they describe.

An afterlife of any kind that feels pain or euphoria, ultimate knowledge, or total repenting, is all likely a dream, however. The soul is really your consciousness, a state arrived at through a bio-chemical process of the most sophisticated instinctive programming to retain most of us as functional units that are part of the larger earth's ecology. Unless you can develop the mental self-discipline to hold your brainwave energy in a coherent pattern beyond your physical body, you will ultimately cease to exist when energy to the brain is cut off, and its actual, physical bio-mass is chemically dissolved by whatever means returns you to the state of fire.

Jargo
02-25-2003, 07:29 AM
Well technicaly yes, the notion of being bad will lead to some perpetual punishment in a horrid place is passed on via word of mouth and morality tale. Spewed forth in boks for children and by mothers and by wicked bad men who wear dresses and stand in a pulpit pontificating about how everyone else should live their lives while maintaining a life of secret debauchery with choir boys or some married woman or just through harbouring criminals etc.
The ntion of hell comes mostly from Northern european mythology. The celts had a belief system that used the gods of the underworld hel was twhere the dev-els lived and even ang-els were bad. They were all forces that would smite you if you were weak and didn't follow the lore of the land set down by canny elders in the tribes. Again, the powerful keeping the less intelligent under their thrall. This mythology got passed around and absorbed into many different religious beliefs including christianity. Like i mentioned, the exact representation and imagery of hell and the devil was decided by a council of church leaders sometime in the 12th or 13th century. And this was transmitted via the fastest means - the travelling players and mummers who went from village to village to town to city to tiny hamlet performing their brand of morality plays to the ignorant masses who couldn't read. The plays would happen during market times when the most people would be gathered in one place at the same time. It was very effective and drummed into peoples consciousness that a bad place existed for sinners and it looked like *xyz* the local church leaders capitalised on this by incorporating the imagery into sermons and incorporating the imagery into church frescos and illuminations (pictures in the bibles they used) The whole thing was swallowed whole by the populace and thus became forever entrenched in the global psyche. Everything since has been colored by this simple subterfuge. On the strength of that one concoction about the devil the churches grew to immense power through the next few centuries to the point where in many cases they controlled the royalty in many countries. the churches ruled the world for a time.
Morality may have lapsed some occasionaly but it was the Victorian age that brought the church and the imagery of the devil back into public consciousness. The Victorians drummed the idea of hell and having seven bells knocked out of you if you went there into sinners like prostitutes and drunkards and their prisoners. And most importantly they drummed it into their children with fists or whips if need be. So yes Tycho you are in a sense right, but you're thinking too small. You cannot talk about the afterlife without first understanding where the notion comes from. Debating what it actually consists of is actually pretty pointless. IMO we are all just wormfood. When we die we cease to be and we cease creating energy within. We are buried or burned and our remains fertilise the earth from whence plants grow and minerals are mined. We are absorbed back into the earth and the process is just a natural renewal and replenishment of the planet. The soul or consciousness ceases when the brain shuts down. With no neurons firing there can be no consciousness. The idea of a soul was created to act as a golden carrot dangling in front of the ignorants noses by the church. As someone has said before, if you're good then you get reward by gaining entry to the clubhouse in the sky. Christianity stole that one from the vikings i believe. Valhalla might not have had the whitewash walls of christianities heaven but it's still the same place. Just dressed a little differently. The catholic church went a little further by introducing the notion that one could absolve ones sins before death - the last rites. How convenient, they had to get the rich and influential onside so introducing a convenient clause like that in the mid centuries was a genius stroke. now all the rich merchants who had their rivals murdered and treated the workforce as slaves could free themselves of guilt before they died. Royals could free themselves of all the vileness the perpetrated as an abuser of power. Very convenient.
Churches have always worked to keep the masses in their thrall and if that meant subtley being revisionist then that's what they did. Proving that it's all just empty words in handy soundbites. Just the same as governmental politics really.

I have to add that i mean no offence by this to anyone who is catholic or viking or christian or otherwise religiously involved in self hating pursuits. I'm in no way a spiritual man. I see no need to believe in such things and look only at the underlying history of theology and the history of the world about us that lead to the growth of churches and religions.

Patient Zero
02-25-2003, 10:44 AM
Do what I and my religion believe. Use your time on earth to do our bidding and when you die and we have no more use for you, you will be whispped away to the magical place called heaven because you jumped when we told you to jump. But if you do not do what I and my religion say you will live your life in fear of hell.

Here is a thought. There are many very slightly different religions in the world (I am thinking of all the Christian ones) that believe in the concept of Hell as punishment for not being subserviant to their quite specific god. Now if even two of them are correct (Keep in mind that by Christian definition, god is beyond man's understanding so how can man abide by the rules of god that have been given to him by another man and not god. The possiblity for misinterpretation is their by their own definition.) and you need to believe in one or the other to be true to its god and not go to hell for not believing specifically what it preaches, doesn't that mean that we are all going to hell because we can not subscribe to both without compromising one or the other? :crazed:

QLD
02-25-2003, 09:34 PM
Everytime I think of hell, it reminds me of the crappy old video game for 3-DO called Hell, starring Dennis Hopper. :dead:

Darth Nihilus
02-26-2003, 10:43 AM
Everything that guy has written as 'evidence' is either; unsubstantiated, circumstantial or just plain twisted to suit his purposes. So Job knew of Brimstone before scientists thousands of years later, did it occur to him that scientists used the name to describe the substance because the description was uncanny?

All that rubbish about people 'drilling throught the gates of hell', 'digging to hell'. Hell, I use hell in a metaphoric sense not a literal sense.

jjreason
02-26-2003, 12:53 PM
Hell: Living life as a small town cop during the 3 weeks your favourite coffee/donut shop is closed for renovations.
:eek: :( :mad: :cry: :dead:

Dar' Argol
02-26-2003, 02:03 PM
I remember when Hell froze over a few years back:D

JediTricks
02-26-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
The soul or consciousness ceases when the brain shuts down. With no neurons firing there can be no consciousness. Ah, but that's only to the outside observer who lives by the human concept of measured linear "point A to point B" time; what about the possibility of non-linear "living between the moments" time? We perceive time as the tick-tock of seconds, but our entire planet's life is barely a blink of the eye of the universe, we ourselves perceive time from our point of view, is it not possible that since time can be perceived from an infinitely large point of view that it could also be perceived from an infinitely small one? And if we can assume it is possible to exist within the tick and the tock, then might your consciousness carry with you your own ideas of heaven and hell? Would your own accursed gift known as "free will" be able to let you choose your own reality at this point? Might this infinity-in-a-breath not be its own form of hell no matter how great a "reality" you bring with you because you hit the wall of possibilities and lose the ability to grow and evolve?


...wouldn't this post be freaky on mind-altering substances? :D

Hellboy
02-26-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
Everytime I think of hell, it reminds me of the crappy old video game for 3-DO called Hell, starring Dennis Hopper. :dead:

Man QLD you sure have played your share of videogames. I remember when that title came out but never actually felt compelled to check it out (for obvious reasons).

As far as Hell is concerned, well It keeps me warm so I can't complain. :evil:

Emperor Howdy
02-27-2003, 12:00 AM
Blasphemers. :mad:

ALL OF YOU! :mad:

Dirty, filthy, drunken, wh0re-mongers! :mad:

With your Slayers, Megadeths, and marijuana cigatettes! :mad:

With...with...with your lustin', and druggin', and Snoop Doggy Doggs! :mad:

With...with your foul forked tongues and...and...and J-Lo's buttocks. :mad:


Remember this:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.'

'And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'

So don't ask me for water! :mad:

'Cuz I can't give it to you! :mad:

Holligans! :mad:

Charlatans! :mad:

You...you....DEMONSEEDS!! :mad:

Lord Malakite
02-27-2003, 12:18 AM
I take it you are angry Howdy.

Each person must live their life as they see fit. If I must burn for eternity in Hell because of how I lived, I say so be it then. :D

Its not really that big of a deal with me.

Emperor Howdy
02-27-2003, 02:07 AM
No...not angry. Joking, actually :) ...BUT...all kidding aside.....I actually believe in Hell. Maybe I'm just a product of my upbringing, but I believe Hell is a very real place (not a state of mind or a location on Earth...or in the center of the Earth :rolleyes: ) where souls are condemned to eternal suffering for turning your back on Christ during the short time you have on this planet. Could it all be a total crock of sheeot? Absolutely. I've thought about that a million times. Is it a man-made creation to keep the generations morally in line, or to satisfy man's arrogant refusal to accept that when you die....that's it. No bells and whistles. No parade with your long dead parents and grandparents reaching out for your hand. No eternal life. Just blackness and silence? Could be. I just don't personally feel that way. Since we're not supposed to turn this into a "religious" thread, I'll just say this: Part of my individual belief system is that there are consequences to your actions....even spiritually. If you die with or without knowing Christ, you will be judged accordingly. You can know Christ without having to go to church every Sunday, walking around a neighborhood knocking on people's doors, or burning your Zeppelin albums. Ultimately, it's what's in your heart when you die. Accept Christ...eternal life is yours. However, if you die a remorseless sinner, then expect to be submerged in boiling pools of blood and feces....that everytime your head comes up out of the lake, it is shredded and mutilated by sharp grappling hooks swung by demons on the edge of the pool....you hang from thorn-covered trees....only allowed to scream in agony while winged creatures, half woman and half insect...rip and tear at your flesh....you curse God as you gnaw on the exposed heads of souls....writhing in pain....encased in ice...kept frozen by the wings of Satan himself in the depths of the ninth circle of Hell......all while having to sleep in bed...dressed in provocative undergarments......with this....this.......this monster!

DEMON (http://rj-firstclass.cjb.net/)

James Boba Fettfield
02-27-2003, 02:15 AM
We salute you, our half-inflated Dark Lord!

Jargo
03-04-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Ah, but that's only to the outside observer who lives by the human concept of measured linear "point A to point B" time; what about the possibility of non-linear "living between the moments" time? We perceive time as the tick-tock of seconds, but our entire planet's life is barely a blink of the eye of the universe, we ourselves perceive time from our point of view, is it not possible that since time can be perceived from an infinitely large point of view that it could also be perceived from an infinitely small one? And if we can assume it is possible to exist within the tick and the tock, then might your consciousness carry with you your own ideas of heaven and hell? Would your own accursed gift known as "free will" be able to let you choose your own reality at this point? Might this infinity-in-a-breath not be its own form of hell no matter how great a "reality" you bring with you because you hit the wall of possibilities and lose the ability to grow and evolve?


...wouldn't this post be freaky on mind-altering substances? :D

YES. :crazed:

JediTricks
03-04-2003, 09:04 PM
heh heh.

Some say the internet itself is a mind-altering substance... but I'm fairly sure they meant "mind-numbing". ;)

stillakid
03-05-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
No...not angry. Joking, actually :) ...BUT...all kidding aside.....I actually believe in Hell. Maybe I'm just a product of my upbringing, but I believe Hell is a very real place (not a state of mind or a location on Earth...or in the center of the Earth :rolleyes: ) where souls are condemned to eternal suffering for turning your back on Christ during the short time you have on this planet. Could it all be a total crock of sheeot? Absolutely. I've thought about that a million times. Is it a man-made creation to keep the generations morally in line, or to satisfy man's arrogant refusal to accept that when you die....that's it. No bells and whistles. No parade with your long dead parents and grandparents reaching out for your hand. No eternal life. Just blackness and silence? Could be. I just don't personally feel that way. Since we're not supposed to turn this into a "religious" thread, I'll just say this: Part of my individual belief system is that there are consequences to your actions....even spiritually. If you die with or without knowing Christ, you will be judged accordingly. You can know Christ without having to go to church every Sunday, walking around a neighborhood knocking on people's doors, or burning your Zeppelin albums. Ultimately, it's what's in your heart when you die. Accept Christ...eternal life is yours. However, if you die a remorseless sinner, then expect to be submerged in boiling pools of blood and feces....that everytime your head comes up out of the lake, it is shredded and mutilated by sharp grappling hooks swung by demons on the edge of the pool....you hang from thorn-covered trees....only allowed to scream in agony while winged creatures, half woman and half insect...rip and tear at your flesh....you curse God as you gnaw on the exposed heads of souls....writhing in pain....encased in ice...kept frozen by the wings of Satan himself in the depths of the ninth circle of Hell......all while having to sleep in bed...dressed in provocative undergarments......with this....this.......this monster!

DEMON (http://rj-firstclass.cjb.net/)

Hmm. I used to think this way.

Then, over the course of a few years and many life experiences, my eyes began to open to what I believe can be the only logical truth. That being that this "Christ" many of us were brought up to believe in is really nothing more than a personification of the idea that "God" is actually EVERYTHING. As with the Hindu belief system, I'm currently running with the idea that "GOD" was a singular "being" (matter plus consciousness) which fragmented itself (or himself, whatever you prefer) into a gazillion pieces.

Sometimes the matter coalesces into rocks or planets. Sometimes into plants and animals, humans included. Some of this matter acts (for some strange reason) as a "consciousness magnet." All living organisms attract some amount of the fragmented consciousness of "GOD" but not all in equal measures. A tree may have a mere sliver where a human seems to get the lions share, relatively speaking.

This is where the religious teachings/rhetoric/etc, what have you, come from when they say things like "Jesus is in each one of you" or "God is within you." There are no "moral" ramifications to our actions. There is no singular "Santa Claus" being UP THERE keeping a list and checking it twice. As Jesus reportedly said, what you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me. And who can forget the immortal, do unto others.... All religious phraseology points in the same direction: that GOD really is all of us, only in a zillion tiny pieces. We are all GOD, albeit slivers of Him/Her/It, and by hurting each other, we are also hurting ourselves.

Anyway, following that logic train to the station, it seems evident that there is no "heaven" to go to upon death and no "hell." When our biological "vessels" "give up the ghost" as it were, our "spirits," that is to say, this "consciousness" is released from the body to either rejoin the free pool of consciousness energy or, in the case of really "strong" spirits, the "energy" remains cohesive to itself so that the "spirit" retains some of it's memory and identity even after the body dies. If your spirit energy isn't strong enough to do that, it will kind of be assimilated back into the available energy pool floating around in the Universe (which is all a part of "GOD" anyway) where it will be sucked into another biological entity at some point or another. This is where the concept of reincarnation comes into the picture. Some of your spirit energy retains a bit of memory so that when and if "you" are "reborn," you may have flashes of previous memories that seem impossible to have. In some cases, some of this energy remains cohesive and may be experienced by living organisms as ghosts or spirits.

Anyhow, the end result may be that this Universe will stop it's expansion one day and begin to fall back in on itself. The eventuality will be that all this "stuff" will go back to where it started and "GOD" will be one singular entity again.

IF this theory is true, it only leaves one question: Why would such a powerful entity do such a thing to itself?

Why cause itself such pain and suffering along with the potential for joy and love? Was it bored? What happens when it becomes one entity again? Will any of us realize it when it happens eons from now? Could that be Heaven? Or would that kind of awareness be Hell?

PoggleTheGreater
03-05-2003, 04:23 AM
Is it possible not to turn this into a religious disscussion? I believe Heaven and Hell are real. I belive they are not of the same properties of the physycal universe. I believe they are all three (Universe, Heaven, Hell) in some sense parallel to each other, so the universe is probably finite. No one gets to heaven on by there own deeds. That was the point of the crusifiction: an undeserving price was paid by Christ which paid for every sin that was or would be committed in the history of man. A gift if you will. As for hell, there is only ONE unforgivable sin: the sin of not repenting. If you belive in God, and ask forgiveness of your sins, the gift of salvation from Hell is yours.

I also believe God created the Heavens and Earth. Are there any atheists out there? If there are, I'd like to extend this topic: How did matter and energy come into existence? (I'm not being a smart alek, I'm interested in hearing your theories.)

plasticfetish
03-05-2003, 05:19 AM
I think with great certainty it can be said that Hell does not lie beneath the Earth's crust. It's common knowledge that beneath the surface of the Earth is where the Mole People live and beneath them, the Lizard People. It is also understood that the Earth's core is where the Magma Men live ... so, this concept of Hell beneath the Earth's surface is clearly impossible.

Porcelina
03-05-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater

Are there any atheists out there? If there are, I'd like to extend this topic: How did matter and energy come into existence? (I'm not being a smart alek, I'm interested in hearing your theories.)

i'm not really an atheist, but........

why did they have to "come into existence"? why can't they just be? i once read that it is psychologically impossible for human beings to imagine infinity, that we always see things as finite (this is at least true for myself)...... thus, while i cannot actually *visualize* the universe being infinite, it still might be.... maybe the universe is something that always was, is, and will be..... and, in that case, energy and matter have always been, and always will be (just maybe not on this planet, cos we're killing it)

and, obviously, i'm sure you know the theories of the big bang/evolution/etc on this planet, so i don't need to explain those :)

The Overlord Returns
03-05-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater

I also believe God created the Heavens and Earth. Are there any atheists out there? If there are, I'd like to extend this topic: How did matter and energy come into existence? (I'm not being a smart alek, I'm interested in hearing your theories.)

Well.....if you go by the notion that matter and energy weren't "always" there, and were created.........what created the entity, or God, that created the matter and energy?

stillakid
03-05-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
How did matter and energy come into existence? (I'm not being a smart alek, I'm interested in hearing your theories.)

The $100,000 question. This is why we refer to religious teachings as "beliefs." No breathing person on this planet has a real clue as to where we came from, why we are here, and what happens to our consciousness after the body dies. So while religion portends to try to explain questions like yours, the absolute FACT of the matter is that nobody really knows.

Which is where the scientific process steps in to try to figure it all out. Through meticulous observation and measurement, humans are slowly getting to the core of what makes us who we are by studying our biology. We are slowly testing and probing new and fascinating theories on the physical makeup of the Universe as a whole and the laws of physics that we live by. But this only works if people are honest and brave enough to slough off the confining religious teachings that most of us have been socialized with throughout childhood. To separate "belief" from "fact" can be the hardest thing in the world to for a person to accomplish.

Some of the latest theories about the nature of the Universe revolve around Superstrings. I won't go into it at all (for more information, pick up the book The Elegant Universe), but most string theories predict somewhere around 11 - 26 or so dimensions that exist in this Universe. We live in 3 of them. So, if you wanted to extend your "BELIEF" system into the scientific realm, you could go out on a limb and theorize that maybe one of those other dimensions is Heaven and another is Hell. Who knows. Maybe one day the scientific method will be able to answer these questions for us. Truth can be stranger than fiction.

PoggleTheGreater
03-05-2003, 04:19 PM
I don't understand all about the existence of God, I often wondered what He did the eternity before He created the earth. I wonder if He created and destroyed worlds before ours. Since He's got a son, I wonder if He's got brothers or sisters. I believe God always was. I can't explain it. I believe He created the physical universe with properties He is, of course, not bound by. I don't think it is purely scientifically possible that matter and energy were always here.

The Overlord Returns
03-05-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
I don't think it is purely scientifically possible that matter and energy were always here.

Yet it's totally possible that a God created it all....??

PoggleTheGreater
03-05-2003, 04:32 PM
Yes

Yes I believe God works and exists in ways that ascend the ways and limitations of science.

I can't explain it all, I just believe it.



Mod Note: Merged and then deleted back2back2back posts. There is no reason to have 3 posts within a minute of each other. If you think of somethign to add use the "EDIT" button.
DA

Patient Zero
03-05-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I won't go into it at all (for more information, pick up the book The Elegant Universe), but most string theories predict somewhere around 11 - 26 or so dimensions that exist in this Universe. We live in 3 of them.

Uuhuum! Are you talking about the 3 spacial dimensions? Don't forget the one dimension of time. God & the New Physics, by Paul Davis, is a good read as well.

QLD
03-05-2003, 05:09 PM
What about the 5th Dimension and the Age of Aquarius???

The Overlord Returns
03-05-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
What about the 5th Dimension and the Age of Aquarius???

There's no scientific evidence to support the existance of either ;)

JediDan
03-05-2003, 05:32 PM
I'm totally with you PoggletheGreater. I was starting to get worried that no one was a believer on this forum.

What is it with people that always need a scientific reason for everything?? God created everything, he has always been and will always be. Try to live life with a kind heart and put faith in the good lord for he always sees us through the good and the bad times.

Patient Zero
03-05-2003, 05:38 PM
I personally have faith in a great many things. However the Easterbunny, the boggie man, Santa Clause and an invisible landlord that lives on a fluffy cloud are not encluded here. If you want to believe those things then that is your call to make, but I for one an not going to believe anything just because someone tells me that their ideas are the way that things are "just because". I question things for myself in a logical and rational manner because I have not met the person who knows everything yet.

stillakid
03-05-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
Yes I believe God works and exists in ways that ascend the ways and limitations of science.

I've always found this line of reasoning to be very interesting. The belief that a Supreme Being created a whole bunch of rules for us and the rest of this "stuff" to exist according to, yet "He" chooses to live outside the box, as it were, and isn't bound to the same set of rules.

Exactly where does this Entity live then? In the same vein, where is the location of Heaven and Hell? Yes, I'm speaking "scientifically" when I ask for a suggestion of location based on physical space. For the purposes of this discussion, it isn't good enough to just proclaim that these ethereal things "exist" out there somewhere. As I've mentioned, our knowledge of the physical Universe grows every day so it only stands to reason that if there is a singular entity out there capable of "watching" us and "judging" our actions, then It must be physically close by or at least have some access into our Universe (the one where It doesn't have to follow the laws of physics et al.)

So where exactly is this thing?



Originally posted by JediDan
What is it with people that always need a scientific reason for everything?? God created everything, he has always been and will always be. Try to live life with a kind heart and put faith in the good lord for he always sees us through the good and the bad times.
Your first question seems innocent enough and a simple answer could suffice. But I personally believe that it makes a great deal of sense to get to the bottom of our existence in a scientific manner if for no other reason than to get this world on track with one KNOWLEDGE (not BELIEF) system to explain everything.

You see, as long as humanity has recorded history, there have been a variety of different beliefs about God, the afterlife, and how we "should" live our lives here on Earth. But the FACT is that nobody really knows squat. It's a lot of storytelling, hearsay, etc etc. This isn't to say that one of them isn't correct, but as yet, not a one can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt by a sane and logical person. But by virtue of logic, only one belief system (or you can call it a theory) can be true which leaves the rest out to pasture. No religious folks I know are ready to volunteer their particular Belief for the trash bin, so nothing short of ABSOLUTE SCIENTIFIC PROOF will bring the arguments to an end. But even then, there will always be Radical Extremists running around proclaiming that "the Devil" or some such nonsense created the "proof."

That kind of understanding is a long way off, so in the meantime, we have to put up with the constant ruckus created by a billion zealots all clamoring to have everyone else believe the way they do. Unfortunately, sometimes, that behavior extends beyond the annoying occasional knock on the door from a missionary. Sometimes these freaks learn to pilot airliners to make their point. This is just one reason why it's important to not just settle comfortably into a "belief" that may or may not be true. Had humanity done that throughout the ages, we'd still think that the Sun revolved around the Earth.


But you maybe right about how to live life. If nothing else, it makes everyone else's life a little more pleasant. But if latching onto an organized religious doctrine is what it takes to convince you to do it, then have at it. But just because the organized religious doctrine exists to define a way of life for people, it's existence certainly constitutes not a lick of TRUTH at all. Who knows? Maybe we were put here to becoming a warrior race and we're doing it all wrong, trying to be nice and everything. Who's to say?

PoggleTheGreater
03-05-2003, 08:50 PM
Thanks JediDan

Scientifically speaking, maybe Heaven and Hell are part of the physical universe. I think according to the Bible there are three heavens: the first being the universe, the second is the section of Heaven that was seperated from God's domain for Satan and his angels, and the third being God's Heaven. I think. I'm not sure if it's said that Hell is in one of the heavens or seperate from them. But maybe, the other two heavens and Hell exist in another form of science that is incompatable with our science. Another dimension, in a sense.

That's why I said earlier, the univerve is probably finite. Do you think its infinate or finite?

stillakid
03-05-2003, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
Thanks JediDan

Scientifically speaking, maybe Heaven and Hell are part of the physical universe. I think according to the Bible there are three heavens: the first being the universe, the second is the section of Heaven that was seperated from God's domain for Satan and his angels, and the third being God's Heaven. I think. I'm not sure if it's said that Hell is in one of the heavens or seperate from them. But maybe, the other two heavens and Hell exist in another form of science that is incompatable with our science. Another dimension, in a sense.

That's why I said earlier, the univerve is probably finite. Do you think its infinate or finite?

First, if we were to even seriously consider using the Bible as a scientific account of historical events, actual contemporary findings would quickly contradict all of it. So, maybe there are "3 heavens," but I would think that the quest to prove such a claim would be as much of an interest of organized religion as it would be to so-called "atheistic" scientists. You see, traditionally, scientists are concerned primarily with answering questions. Conversely, traditionally it has been the goal of organized religion to thwart those efforts out of fear that their "beliefs" might one day be proven wrong. Look what the Catholic Church did to Galileo for evidence of that.

But, anyway, is the Universe infinite or finite? Again, who knows. I personally hope that there is more after all this. What a depressing thought that it all ends with physical death. With that as an option, it's really no surprise that so many people over the eons have gravitated towards needing to believe in a higher power and a pleasant afterlife. When seen like that, it really doesn't seem to cause any harm at all. It's only when the maniacal extremists decide to shape "public policy" based on their own beliefs is when the potential for trouble becomes evident. Just as it's nearly impossible for me to truly comprehend something that is "infinite," I am equally puzzled by people who can give themselves so completely to unsubstantiated beliefs.

PoggleTheGreater
03-06-2003, 03:24 AM
There will probably never be a way of proving by science alone how the universe began. Any choice requires some degree of faith.

Porcelina
03-06-2003, 09:13 AM
if the universe is finite and ends somewhere, then what's beyond it? and if that "second universe" is finite, what's beyond that? and if the 'third universe" is finite, then....... same question! :) etc

do you think the universe just kinda stops somewhere? like eventually you hit a wall (a la Truman Show)? i personally find it easier to believe that the universe is infinite......

stillakid
03-06-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Porcelina
if the universe is finite and ends somewhere, then what's beyond it? and if that "second universe" is finite, what's beyond that? and if the 'third universe" is finite, then....... same question! :) etc

do you think the universe just kinda stops somewhere? like eventually you hit a wall (a la Truman Show)? i personally find it easier to believe that the universe is infinite......

I think that the idea involves everything from time, gravity, speed, curved space, etc. Which means that you wouldn't (or couldn't) come to the "end" of it, rather because of the physical properties of what makes all of this work, it's more like a circle. The closest parallel I can think of at the moment is someone trying to find the edge of the Earth. It doesn't happen. You just end up where you started eventually. Same thing with the an "infinite" Universe.

But look, if it all made complete sense and we understood it, we wouldn't be here discussing it. :)

JON9000
03-06-2003, 10:32 AM
It's Purgatory that I am worried about! Oh, that doesn't exist anymore. Please ignore.:rolleyes:

Patient Zero
03-06-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
I've always found this line of reasoning to be very interesting. The belief that a Supreme Being created a whole bunch of rules for us and the rest of this "stuff" to exist according to, yet "He" chooses to live outside the box, as it were, and isn't bound to the same set of rules.


Here is the problem with that: If god is inside the our space-time continuum then god is also subjected to the rules and restrictions that are in play within the S/T continuum and thus NOT Omnipotent. If god is outside of the S/T continuum then god can not manipulate what is inside. See the problem in that thinking!?!

I have an honest question! Why is it that people see this god in the way that they do (especially if we are not suppose to be able to comprehend god)? It does not stand up to any sort of theoretical experimentations.

Now I know that many will see my babbling as an assault on their ideas (which is by no means my intention), but you need to ask yourself: If you are so threatened by different opinions then perhaps your alleged full fledged devotion to those ideas does not contain the certainty that you would like to believe.

I am not saying that something to which we could call god does not exist, but perhaps the concept of god as a father figure is incorrect. Just think about it.

stillakid
03-06-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

I have an honest question! Why is it that people see this god in the way that they do (especially if we are not suppose to be able to comprehend god)? It does not stand up to any sort of theoretical experimentations.

I, for one, grew up Catholic and as such, "believed" for the longest time in everything I was told. But I was only believing in that by virtue of whose child I was and the society I was born into. By a roll of the cosmic dice, I could just as well been born as a Hasidic Jew or a nomadic Muslim somewhere in Pakistan.

So taking that truth into account as well as everything else, it only seems logical to conclude that organized man-made religion fulfills the human desire for a sense of security. It does kind of give you a warm and cozy feeling believing that there is a omnipotent being out there somewhere looking after your personal well-being.

The problem with that is that it doesn't make any sense. Why would this omnipotent being "create" all these different organized religions? What if Islam is the correct religion, or Hindi or Judiasm? If any one of those is the actual correct set of rules we are supposed to follow, then what kind of cruel GOD is this that essentially condemns me to HELL just because I happened to be born into the wrong family? Missionary's you say? Those people are out spreading God's Word so if you choose to ignore them then you deserve the horrible afterlife you've asked for! Alright, but what about those "primitive" people in remote parts of the world who the missionary's just don't reach in time? What about the hoards of people who died before "Jesus Christ" popped into existence? Are they all just doomed or do they get grandfathered into Heaven due to the bad timing of their birth?

This is assuming that this omnipotent all-powerful being is benevolent in the first place. Maybe "He" does enjoy watching us argue and war with one another. Heck, some humans like to pit their chickens against each other, so there is precedent for unexplainable sadistic behavior.

PS, I fully expect these "tough" questions to be either entirely ignored by "true believers" or explained away by saying that "with God all things are possible." I've heard it all before.

The Overlord Returns
03-06-2003, 11:41 AM
Well, it's plainly obvious that "Religion" permeates the idea of the angry and vengeful lord, quick to condemn and strike down those who turn from his word, from his power.

THe god most religions present is, quite frankly, a jerk. Here is this omnipotent being, supoosedly on a plain of thought and knowledge we could never contemplate, yet he needs an ego stroke? He also seems to be a prankster to a sick extreme.

The thing goes about providing humans with the desire, and ability, to do things he then turns around and states are "sin" (or so the religious leaders would have us believe). He makes sex pleasurable, yet frowns upon our desire to do it for any other reason that propagation, and even then, you must be married. We shouldn't see our genitalia, yet we're born naked ;)....

Then of course, he has a certain section of the human populace become attracted to the same sex, yet you're a disgusting sinner if you indulge in your natural instincts...goven to you by god. What a mean old sonuva!


I don't buy this. Obviously, the notion of the intangible parent figure ready to spank you at the drop of a hat is a creation of the religious leaders, eager to control the unwashed masses, saying to them "Do what we say is good and right, follow our rules, and you get to go to the heavens and lead your next life in utter bliss, however, think for yourself, and do not follow what we set down, and god will let you burn in hell, in everlasting agony"....

Hell, who wouldn't be terrified at this? Who wouldn't want to do their utmost to avoid this fiery, horrible end? It's great marketing....

JediDan
03-06-2003, 03:40 PM
PoggletheGreater.... I believe the universe is infinite. Heaven and hell are not pyhsical places, they are spiritual places. I believe people take some things way to literally when they read passages from the Bible. As for people of all religions and non religions I truly believe that in the end they are judged by whats in their heart.

For all those people out there that are so scientific... If you are scientific you would be open to different theories about many things. Why don't you indulge in the "religion" theory and grab a Bible and start reading, you may be pleasently surprised.

Porcelina
03-06-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I think that the idea involves everything from time, gravity, speed, curved space, etc. Which means that you wouldn't (or couldn't) come to the "end" of it, rather because of the physical properties of what makes all of this work, it's more like a circle. The closest parallel I can think of at the moment is someone trying to find the edge of the Earth. It doesn't happen. You just end up where you started eventually. Same thing with the an "infinite" Universe.


well, i *was* being sarcastic with the truman show quip ;)

that was kinda my point, though, how i don't really see the universe being finite.... even if it was "shaped" (i use that term loosely) as a sort of sphere, it would still beg the question of what's outside the sphere.....

do you remember the ending to men in black?? it was only 30 seconds long, but it was really cool..... (i'm not gonna bother explaining it, so if you haven't seen it, tough baloney!) :P

stillakid
03-06-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by JediDan
PoggletheGreater.... I believe the universe is infinite. Heaven and hell are not pyhsical places, they are spiritual places. I believe people take some things way to literally when they read passages from the Bible. As for people of all religions and non religions I truly believe that in the end they are judged by whats in their heart.

For all those people out there that are so scientific... If you are scientific you would be open to different theories about many things. Why don't you indulge in the "religion" theory and grab a Bible and start reading, you may be pleasently surprised.

You've got it quite turned around there. It is indeed those with a scientific presence of mind who are far more open to new ideas. Standard religious thought is a very restrictive environment with a set of very strict rules each with it's own reward/punishment system. The scientific method, on the other hand, answers to no one, and the only "punishment" to a theory is that it becomes disproven. The incentive is to keep striving for new and more accurate knowledge. Please explain to me how you could ever ever ever conclude that scientific thought is not open to "different theories"? That's the entire idea behind it! I've seen some contradictions, but this thought you've posted takes the cake.

The fact is that no religion has ever PROVEN the existence of a supreme being, a heavenly plain, or a hell. No evidence can be provided to prove that ghosts or spirits exist. There is no evidence that any physic ability exists or ever has.

HOWEVER, instead of just nonchalantly brushing those things off or agreeing with them carte blanche, it is the aim of rational minded people to actually take the time to search for Proof that these things exist or not. It's fine to have FAITH and a BELIEF that maybe these kinds of things exist, but stating that they DO exist is crazy (because no one knows for sure) and then accusing "scientists" of being closed-minded for not accepting things blindly is entirely illogical.

And it didn't escape me that you've chosen to ignore the very difficult to answer questions posed above and ran to the safety of the man-made religious text of your choice. Standard reaction. I believe that I get points for calling that one.


Oh, and for the record, I have read it and still have the ability of independent thought to see things as they are. :)

stillakid
03-06-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina
well, i *was* being sarcastic with the truman show quip ;)

that was kinda my point, though, how i don't really see the universe being finite.... even if it was "shaped" (i use that term loosely) as a sort of sphere, it would still beg the question of what's outside the sphere.....

do you remember the ending to men in black?? it was only 30 seconds long, but it was really cool..... (i'm not gonna bother explaining it, so if you haven't seen it, tough baloney!) :P

Outside the sphere? Just like trying to imagine "infinity," the ability for our minds to imagine "nothing" is equally challenging. The only way to truly comprehend such a thing would be to leave this Universe and get outside the box. But since that appears to be impossible, as no one has yet found a way to live independently of the laws of physics that bind us here, we can only continue to test and measure up to the limits of what is possible.

The Men In Black scenario, while cute for the story, isn't entirely a viable theory for a closed space. If I recall correctly, just our galaxy was caught up in one of the marbles. A more accurate theory would have our entire Universe inside one of the marbles. Maybe something like that is actually happening. But we'd never know it unless we could break those boundries of space/time. But wouldn't it be cool to discover such a thing? We've already theorized about it (remember, those close-minded scientists who aren't open to different theories?), so setting about to prove such a thing would be incredible! I suspect that religious organizations would only support such research if they were certain that it would prove their own belief system. But because there is no such certainty, fear of that unknown...fear of being disproven keeps them from supporting the concept of scientific discovery. A collapse of that belief system would render their control over the populace obsolete and would likely cause more than a few weak-minded individuals to have complete mental breakdowns as their emotional crutch became useless.

Porcelina
03-06-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
It is indeed those with a scientific presence of mind who are far more open to new ideas.

i wish that were true, but it's not always........... being in the (holistic) nutrition field, i have read study after study and article after article about scientists/medical doctors who refuse to listen to anything except what they read in their dam medical textbooks, put together and funded by pharmaceutical companies and the freakin dairy industry.... *sigh--glad that's off my chest*

but, other than that, i do agree with your post :D

i personally feel a healthy balance of reason and belief is what we should all strive for... it's important to have things to believe in, and dream about, religiously or not.... as long as the dreams don't become so powerful that they completely take over your logic.... or vice versa.... ;)

PoggleTheGreater
03-06-2003, 04:30 PM
I believe the Bible was written by men and inspired by God himself. The many organized religions that contradict each other are mostly misinterpretations or perversions of the original scriptures or ones created by people that ignore God. I attend Baptist churches, but I don't subscribe to any denomination's own "morals" or rules.

2-1B
03-06-2003, 04:34 PM
stillakid, those are all good questions . . . it seems to me that so many different religions claim to be "the right one" and that's how they can keep a significant number of people in their fold.

Personally, I don't think these religions were all created by an omnipotent being -- I think they are man made.
That's why I make for such a poor believer. :D

Porcelina
03-06-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
I believe the Bible was written by men and inspired by God himself. The many organized religions that contradict each other are mostly misinterpretations or perversions of the original scriptures or ones created by people that ignore God. I attend Baptist churches, but I don't subscribe to any denomination's own "morals" or rules.

but how do you know yours is the "right" one, of if it's one of the ones that are "perversions" or "ignore god"??

JediDan
03-06-2003, 04:38 PM
SO you're telling me that you've read through the Bible and you came to the notion that it was all hocus pucus and just threw out that theory?? Well thats fine if thats what suits you. You sure like to question peoples faith alot though. I know God is real and I feel no need what so ever to prove my feels. Why do you need to prove your feelings so much? Also if you're so opened minded than why is the concept of God so hard for you to grasp??? You say you're open minded but the remarks you leave say otherwise.

My last post as I see this thread is starting to get way too judgemental. Anyway happy hunting to all. :D

The Overlord Returns
03-06-2003, 04:38 PM
Well, thats the funny thing....

Each person who subscribes to a certain religion thinks the other ones are "perversions"...so...who's right?

2-1B
03-06-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Well, thats the funny thing....

Each person who subscribes to a certain religion thinks the other ones are "perversions"...so...who's right?

Nobody is right. :D

The Overlord Returns
03-06-2003, 04:46 PM
Or, they are all right...and every religion is a perversion ;)

PoggleTheGreater
03-06-2003, 04:46 PM
I was talking about the monotheistic religions. Most are based on the Bible, but some misinterpret the original meanings, or change the meainings to their likeing, or create meaning out of nowhere.

The Overlord Returns
03-06-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by PoggleTheGreater
I was talking about the monotheistic religions. Most are based on the Bible, but some misinterpret the original meanings, or change the meainings to their likeing, or create meaning out of nowhere.

Actually, it's been my experience that all religions do this with there base texts....

Porcelina
03-06-2003, 04:56 PM
i think the problem here is people claiming to KNOW about god......

whether you KNOW god exists or you KNOW he doesn't, you're wrong, you're either a fool or a liar..... you simply BELIEVE one or the other

here's a common dictionary definition of BELIEF: conviction of the truth or reality of a thing, based upon grounds insufficient to afford positive knowledge

thus, BELIEF does not equate with KNOWLEDGE

believe in whatever religion you want (or not), whatever gets you through the day, but please stop using any form of the word "knowledge" when it comes to god, cos it just ain't true :kiss:

2-1B
03-06-2003, 04:56 PM
Exactly. And only the people who "know" the original meanings are able to say they know . . . :crazed:

plasticfetish
03-06-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina
i personally feel a healthy balance of reason and belief is what we should all strive for... it's important to have things to believe in, and dream about, religiously or not.... as long as the dreams don't become so powerful that they completely take over your logic.... or vice versa.
Nice. Best statement in this thread yet.


Originally posted by Porcelina
believe in whatever religion you want (or not), whatever gets you through the day, but please stop using any form of the word "knowledge" when it comes to god, cos it just ain't true
Again, nice.

Truth and knowledge are both relative things. For sure we all look for answers in trying to understand the world and universe around us ... some people find "truth" in the teachings of one religion, others look to find guidance in the teachings of many religions by comparing and contrasting the myths and stories that are offered as a part of those teachings. I find the greatest validation of a "higher power" to exist in the simple belief that all things are possible. I don't necessarily believe that all things are "probable" ... but, I like to imagine that no matter where our "logical" minds might take us, there may always be just a few big surprises around the next corner.

stillakid
03-06-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by JediDan
SO you're telling me that you've read through the Bible and you came to the notion that it was all hocus pucus and just threw out that theory?? Well thats fine if thats what suits you. You sure like to question peoples faith alot though.
No, that's not what I said. I absolutely did not say that it was hocus pocus. What I said was that nobody knows if it's true or not. The question I posed, which has summarily been ignored, is what's wrong with trying to prove the existence of a god, a heaven, or a hell? Why settle in and merely take everything on blind faith if you don't have to?


Originally posted by JediDan
I know God is real
So you "KNOW" that God is real? Prove it.


Originally posted by JediDan
and I feel no need what so ever to prove my feels. Why do you need to prove your feelings so much?
You don't need to prove your "feels"? I'll ignore the lack of proof-reading on your part and try to not make judgments about your personal clarity based on the grammar. However, all I've said was that it's perfectly okay to BELIEVE what you want to. It's this constant claim of KNOWLEDGE that is interesting to me. Every wonder why most religions frequently make use of the word "FAITH" in their teachings? It's because they DON'T know and have FAITH that it is true. If you KNOW something to be true, there's no need for FAITH. I KNOW that I'm sitting in my chair right now. I have FAITH that my truck is still sitting in my garage and hasn't been stolen even though I can't see it.


Originally posted by JediDan
Also if you're so opened minded than why is the concept of God so hard for you to grasp??? You say you're open minded but the remarks you leave say otherwise.
The concept of God is NOT hard for me to grasp at all. You've chosen to misinterpret my words because they don't completely mesh with yours. In fact for the record I DO believe that there is a Supreme Being. The conclusion I've come to (for the moment anyway) is that it doesn't resemble or act like the Santa Claus god that you believe in. My version of It purposefully meshes with the known and theoretical science that this Universe is built upon. It isn't some "magical" being that just exists in some non-specific "spiritual" place somewhere.


Originally posted by JediDan
My last post as I see this thread is starting to get way too judgemental. Anyway happy hunting to all. :D
The questions got too hard I guess. Oh well. :rolleyes:

James Boba Fettfield
03-07-2003, 12:40 AM
What happened to our making fun of that website about what it said about Hell?

QLD
03-07-2003, 12:48 AM
Did I mention that I played a real crappy 3DO game called Hell with Dennis Hopper in it????

I did....oh.....well, It sucked.

stillakid
03-07-2003, 12:52 AM
Did anybody ever play that game AFTERLIFE by LucasArts? I always wanted to try a SIM game and that one sounded really interesting.

JediTricks
03-07-2003, 01:13 AM
Hmm, I don't know if this thread will stay open for much longer. The whole "religious threads" issue from a few weeks back seems to be screaming its head off here over the past few days. At first it seemed like this thread was gonna be able to hold together, but apparently it can't. If we can't get this back on track soon, the thread will be closed.


Also, let's clear up the following:

proselytizing: verb - to attempt to induce someone to convert from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

Proselytizing is not allowed on these forums. Please respect others' rights to not be harassed when they visit here; you have the right to your own beliefs, but that right applies to everybody here equally.

2-1B
03-07-2003, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
proselytizing: verb - to attempt to induce someone to convert from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

Proselytizing is not allowed on these forums.

Then why are we allowed to discuss the prequels ? :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:


Dennis Hopper was in Hell ?
Those Nike commercials with him as a ref singing the praises of HARDY NICKERSON were pretty hellacious. :)

stillakid
03-07-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Hmm, I don't know if this thread will stay open for much longer. The whole "religious threads" issue from a few weeks back seems to be screaming its head off here over the past few days. At first it seemed like this thread was gonna be able to hold together, but apparently it can't. If we can't get this back on track soon, the thread will be closed.


Also, let's clear up the following:

proselytizing: verb - to attempt to induce someone to convert from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

Proselytizing is not allowed on these forums. Please respect others' rights to not be harassed when they visit here; you have the right to your own beliefs, but that right applies to everybody here equally.


I don't know if you're referring to me or not (probably) but for the record, I wasn't proselytizing. I was merely putting forth some questions, both scientific (not religious) and logical (also not religious) that speak to the topic at hand of HELL. Certainly, one can expect that in the course of examining such a topic that the conversation must by necessity take into account various scientific theories as well as the religious accounts which are responsible for it's inclusion into the vernacular in the first place. If certain individuals feel "harassed" or "threatened" by the difficult questions posed then perhaps it is best for them to avert their attentions to more pleasing and safe topics. :)

JediTricks
03-07-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Then why are we allowed to discuss the prequels ? :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: There's a difference between saying "I like the prequels" and "here's why you must like the prequels". Certainly that does happen occasionally, and I try to head that situation off at the pass when it does come up, but since the prequels aren't anywhere near the level of painful and powerful topics of discussion as religion, my methods there are more mild and I try to let the other mods deal with it in their ways. Unfortunately, when the topic of religion comes up, it's rarely confined to "here's my take on this and that" type of talk, there's too often the whole "my point of view is superior to yours, here's why you should change your beliefs" type of talk.


Stilla, I wasn't trying to single any specific person out, that's why I didn't name names. But if the question arises within yourself* about your* motives possibly proselytizing being misinterpretted as such, then maybe it's time to simply take it a little slower and self*-analyze what you* are saying more carefully.

*-("you" in these uses is applying to EVERYBODY reading the statement, not just Stilla)


-------------


BTW, Little Nicky had some ok Hell scenes, but they could have been better. Luckily, Ozzy totally salvaged that film. :D

2-1B
03-07-2003, 02:36 AM
"Hell" yeah, Ozzy was great in his cameo !

What's also cool is that he used some of the Little Nicky set on the Ozzfest stage that year. :)

stillakid
03-07-2003, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
There's a difference between saying "I like the prequels" and "here's why you must like the prequels". Certainly that does happen occasionally, and I try to head that situation off at the pass when it does come up, but since the prequels aren't anywhere near the level of painful and powerful topics of discussion as religion, my methods there are more mild and I try to let the other mods deal with it in their ways. Unfortunately, when the topic of religion comes up, it's rarely confined to "here's my take on this and that" type of talk, there's too often the whole "my point of view is superior to yours, here's why you should change your beliefs" type of talk.


Stilla, I wasn't trying to single any specific person out, that's why I didn't name names. But if the question arises within yourself* about your* motives possibly proselytizing being misinterpretted as such, then maybe it's time to simply take it a little slower and self*-analyze what you* are saying more carefully.

*-("you" in these uses is applying to EVERYBODY reading the statement, not just Stilla)


-------------


BTW, Little Nicky had some ok Hell scenes, but they could have been better. Luckily, Ozzy totally salvaged that film. :D

Just covering my bases. :D I'm entirely comfortable and confident with everything I propose and the questions I offer up to be discussed. Anyone is free to BELIEVE anything they want to. I only questioned the target of your warning because my scientific analysis of the location of HELL drifted inevitably into the tricky territory of religious thought. I know that you aren't real keen on that, so it wasn't so much my own ideas that made me respond, rather it was my realization that I may have caused the discussion to enter those dicey waters.

PoggleTheGreater
03-07-2003, 06:22 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was quite enjoying this disscussion.

QLD
03-07-2003, 07:05 PM
I thought this conversation was going to hell in a handbasket!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

stillakid
03-07-2003, 07:56 PM
Has anyone read Dante?

PoggleTheGreater
03-07-2003, 09:14 PM
Anybody seen Dogma?

2-1B
03-07-2003, 10:36 PM
Anyone familiar with Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey?

JediTricks
03-07-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Anyone familiar with Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey? I'm sorry to say that I paid full price to see that in the theater. And the director of that mess (who did not direct the original) is now directing the Garfield the Cat movie! If that doesn't sound like hell on earth... ;)

scruffziller
03-08-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
Blasphemers. :mad:

ALL OF YOU! :mad:

Dirty, filthy, drunken, wh0re-mongers! :mad:

With your Slayers, Megadeths, and marijuana cigatettes! :mad:

With...with...with your lustin', and druggin', and Snoop Doggy Doggs! :mad:

With...with your foul forked tongues and...and...and J-Lo's buttocks. :mad:


Remember this:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.'

'And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'

So don't ask me for water! :mad:

'Cuz I can't give it to you! :mad:

Holligans! :mad:

Charlatans! :mad:

You...you....DEMONSEEDS!! :mad:

Are you one of those Touchtone Terrorists Empy?????!!:sur:

QLD
03-08-2003, 12:26 PM
What is a touchtone terrorist?

Lord Malakite
03-08-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
What is a touchtone terrorist?

I think they make prank phone calls to spread terror. Either that, or they are telemarketers. :evil: :D

QLD
03-08-2003, 07:03 PM
Yeah, I think telemarketers would definately qualify as telephone terrorists.

2-1B
03-08-2003, 10:56 PM
I've got a CD with some Touchstone Terrorist phone calls which were aired on the Howard Stern show. Some of the calls are boring while others are gold ! :D