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stillakid
02-25-2003, 11:36 AM
Well, it's finally happening. It's no secret that I and a few others who hang around these parts haven't been so enamored with the Prequels. Opinions are opinions, no one is telling anyone else to like something or not. So that's not the issue, so please don't take it that way.

So what's going on? At first, our negative comments about the Prequels were met with a hearty volley of defensive rebuttal suggesting that the Prequels were in fact written and made very well and were every bit as good as the Original Trilogy films.

Well, that tactic didn't work so well as most of us haven't changed our minds and I've also seen some recent "converts" who have begun to see the light, as it were.

In any case, there's a new tactic in town that I'm finding to be really interesting. It's the suggestion that for all the superficialness and convenience one can point out in the Prequels, an equal serving can be shown to exist in the Original Trilogy. Put another way, this new tact rather admits that the Prequels have significant flaws and says that the Original Trilogy isn't that great either.

Here's a quick example, though it's not the only one: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=225894#post225894

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Maybe we've all been too willing to look past the obvious defects (Parsecs, the Falcon getting to Cloud City without hyperdrive, etc) that make the Original Trilogy films empirically a poorly written story so full of contrivances as to make it fit for a Razzie too. Maybe not. I don't know.

So I guess the topic of this thread is: What's wrong with the Original Trilogy? Based on this new line of reasoning, it sucks too. Let's tear it apart! :evil:

LTBasker
02-25-2003, 11:45 AM
Frankly you really have no need to refer to choosing one trilogy over the other as "choosing the light" cause they're just opinions, and while I'm more of a fan of the OT, people just like the PT over all.

Anyways, I don't refer to the OT as flawless as it does have quite a few errors such as in ESB when Luke falls through the vent shaft, the weather vane is prone to easy damage being next to the vent drop point, and considering where it is it could be very inconvient to fix so it makes little sense as to why they would put it there in the first place.

*shrugs* Can't we all just get along, kiddo? :happy:

stillakid
02-25-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
Frankly you really have no need to refer to choosing one trilogy over the other as "choosing the light" cause they're just opinions, and while I'm more of a fan of the OT, people just like the PT over all.

Anyways, I don't refer to the OT as flawless as it does have quite a few errors such as in ESB when Luke falls through the vent shaft, the weather vane is prone to easy damage being next to the vent drop point, and considering where it is it could be very inconvient to fix so it makes little sense as to why they would put it there in the first place.

*shrugs* Can't we all just get along, kiddo? :happy:

I was afraid this would be taken the wrong way.

I'm not out for a fight and in this thread, I'm not taking sides or asking anyone else to. It's just been suggested that there are a cadre of problems with the OT, and as I've been accused of being infected with Original Trilogy Worship disease in the past, I don't think that I'm qualified to fairly judge either sets of films.

I'm just looking for a list of OT problems.

I'll start:

1.) How could the Falcon have gotten to Cloud City without a Hyperdrive! :eek: Clearly a silly contrivance.

2.) Leia is Luke's sister?! :eek: That's just too convenient. Silly.

3.)

4.)

5.)

It's just that easy! :) Help me fill in the blanks. Thanks!

Vortex
02-25-2003, 12:37 PM
I'll play along...just don't get me started on the bad dialog, and acting in the OT's...

The falcon making an attack run on the star destroyer, yet can stop on a dime and attach itself to the hull of the star destroyer without making a sound...

At the end of ESB when luke, leia, lando and chewie are on the frigate and looking down onto the spiral armed galaxy...what the hell...it was a cool shot, but when you look at the star wars maps, they are in 1 galaxy and it sure didn't look like a solar system...

Ok, there's no air is outter space, and its a vacuume, yet you can hear explosions, ships smouldered and burned...now if I remember my physics right...this is a no no.

large floating metal trash in the trash compactor...

El Chuxter
02-25-2003, 01:08 PM
Okay, here's one that's always bugged me: Why do X-Wing starfighters need jet engines? I'm sure there's an EU explanation, but the designers 20 years ago gave them jet engines, and that's all there is to it.

Exhaust Port
02-25-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
The falcon making an attack run on the star destroyer, yet can stop on a dime and attach itself to the hull of the star destroyer without making a sound...

I've often thought why the people whose window was now blocked by a space ship that's attached recently to the outer hull didn't call someone.

<ring> <ring>

Commander: "Hello, this is the Command Deck."

Officer: "Yeah, hello. Um, I don't know what's going on up there but I just had a ship plant itself right on my window. Could you possibly send someone out there to pull it off as I'd rather not stare at this ugly hullplating."

Commander: "There's a ship on your window?"

Officer: "Yeah, I was sitting here minding my own business when this thing just Plopped itself right on my window."

Commander: "What does it look like?"

Officer: "Heck, I don't know. All I can see is its gray hull plating........Wait, I can almost make out some writing........it says.....llenium Falco."

Commander: "Llenium Falco?"

Officer: "Yup, that's what it says."

Commander: "Huh, that name doesn't sound familiar. We'll send someone out there to take a look."

Officer: "Great! Do you think you could also turn turn the heat up a ....<click>....Hello?

Commander: "Hey, any of you guys ever heard of a ship called the Llenium Falco?"

Exhaust Port
02-25-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
Okay, here's one that's always bugged me: Why do X-Wing starfighters need jet engines? I'm sure there's an EU explanation, but the designers 20 years ago gave them jet engines, and that's all there is to it.

Jet engines? I just assumed those 4 engines on the X-Wings were multi-purpose propulsion engines. Good in all climates, atmospheres and gravities. Assuming that they were jet engines, the would be/could be used for flight in a planets atmosphere such as when they left Yavin for the Death Star. Perhaps?

Vortex
02-25-2003, 01:56 PM
heh, heh, heh...that's pretty good.

Falco - the man who did Rock Me Amadaus....

icatch9
02-25-2003, 02:29 PM
I don't understand why you would want to do any of this. To the OT or the PT. Aren't these movies we all love? Aren't these movies the ones who have brought us joy for 25+ years? Aren't these movies the seed that has grown into a world phenom? Why tear it apart? Why insult them? Why why why why?

Are we looking for logic? Are any of us hear Vulcans? Do we look for logic in our own real lifes? I do to a point, but certainly not in every single situation.

So there are flaws, errors, and inconsistancies. So what, these same things exist in real life. Why is it important to point them out and insult the movies. It's not as if the movies or even GL boast that they are perfect. He's not poping up on every talk show and saying "Aren't my movies perfect. Didn't I do a good job. I really wrote a flawless movie." No of course he's not. He knows probally better than any of us that these errors and what not are there. He'll in the PT he may of put some in just to **** guys like your lott off.

I am sorry, but I do not see the reason or the fun to point out the flaws of these movies. There is so much more that can be drawn from them. So many lessons that can be learned, and yet you guys do nothing but point out the bad parts.

Can you spell pessimistic or its many synonmns? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Kidhuman
02-25-2003, 03:24 PM
When Luke went to strike the Emperor down and Vader stopped him, Vaders saber is in front of Lukes not behind How is that possible?

Vortex
02-25-2003, 03:25 PM
blah, blah, blah...relax icatch9 and take the blash shield down from your eyes.

We might love/like the movies to some extent, but seriously, the OT and PT are pretty cruddy movies if you sit back and watch them with a non-star-wars-liking-perspective, or just look at them for their dialog, and acting. A new hope, is nothing more than a cry baby luke, and the rest of the time, han, leia and luke are all shouting lame dialog at each other. I enjoy them for the escape and entertainment they bring to 2+ hours of filler time when I don't have anything better to do. Yes there are lessons in them, mythology, but seriously the meanings don't change from one viewing to the next. And Star wars ain't the end all be all for morality and meanings.

Why can't we be critical of things we like? Why can't we have fun and point out things that don't fit, make sense, or just defy the laws of physics/gravity/ or logic for that matter.

Heck I love James bond, and I do the same with those movies...and they break every law of nature there is. To be honest we're being nice to star wars so far.

On another point, we are all FREAKS here and why can't we introduce a little reality here in this forum?

Some of us live breath and die by these 5 soon to be 6 movies. We know the names and histories of background figures that are only on screen for a par-sec or less. We digest all the novels, comics, role play info, card games, video games like its a drug or religion. And heaven forbid if one of our own wants to shoot holes in something we cherish and believe in. Lots of us here cry, whine and have fits if they can't locate a little action figure. We waste days, weekends, many hours surfing the net, looking for toys and then complaining about the figures or what direction star wars should be taking. I'm amazed none of us have our photos on a possible pedophile list for as much as we frequent toy isle in stores...
We are star wars FREAKS and some of us need a serious dose of reality some times.

This is a reality thread about the eye rollers and just dumb old things that are put into a movie. Its like a "what were they thinking" thread. After you watch these movies x number of times you start to notice dumb little things, and you say hey, that doesn't make sense...

If you just sit back and brainlessly watch the movies and don't question them or notice inconsistencies you're doing GL just as large of a disfavor as we are by not keeping him honest and letting him get outta jams with totally unrealistic situtations or answers, or letting him just substitute anything to patch a hole in the story line or make up for a lack of time or technology. If you just accept and eat up what ever he puts out there and on the screen your no better. You'd probably be content if GL had papa smurf under vaders helmet in ROTJ...

Let it go...we're just having fun and the greatness of something is always in the details.

Bel-Cam Jos
02-25-2003, 07:47 PM
Problems with the OT:
1) Movies were too short. Give me more, more, MORE!
2) Not seeing enough of the background scenes. Give me more, more, MORE!
3) Needed more laser fights. Give me more, more, MORE!
4) Not every single scene had John Williams' soundtrack. Give me more, more, MORE!

There. :p

But, I'll take the devil's advocate view, as if I had wanted to nit-pick the movies... :rolleyes:
1) How does Han fly the Falcon? I see no controls except a lever that goes forward and backward for hyperdrive and a few buttons? There's a still shot of Leia with a small silver handset from ESB, but that's it.
2) How can there be no visible breath from the Rebels inside Echo Base, while the ice walls remain unmelted?
3) Why does Executor fall into the Death Star II point-first? Why does it fall at all?
4) Why didn't the Empire just bomb Echo Base from orbit? The shield generator can't be that powerful or over the whole planet; shoot around it.
5) Why do no characters sweat on Tatooine?

Rogue II
02-25-2003, 08:34 PM
I can answer #5. Just because it is a desert, doesn't necessarily make it hot all the time, but it depends on the season. I was in Kuwait from the end of August to early december 2001. When I got there it was between 120-130 F. By late October/Early November, it actually cooled off to the 70-80 F. Not exactly "sweating" weather.

But then again, Tatooine had 2 suns, so who knows.

mini-rock
02-25-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by icatch9
I don't understand why you would want to do any of this. To the OT or the PT. Aren't these movies we all love? Aren't these movies the ones who have brought us joy for 25+ years? Aren't these movies the seed that has grown into a world phenom? Why tear it apart? Why insult them? Why why why why?

Are we looking for logic? Are any of us hear Vulcans? Do we look for logic in our own real lifes? I do to a point, but certainly not in every single situation.

So there are flaws, errors, and inconsistancies. So what, these same things exist in real life. Why is it important to point them out and insult the movies. It's not as if the movies or even GL boast that they are perfect. He's not poping up on every talk show and saying "Aren't my movies perfect. Didn't I do a good job. I really wrote a flawless movie." No of course he's not. He knows probally better than any of us that these errors and what not are there. He'll in the PT he may of put some in just to **** guys like your lott off.

I am sorry, but I do not see the reason or the fun to point out the flaws of these movies. There is so much more that can be drawn from them. So many lessons that can be learned, and yet you guys do nothing but point out the bad parts.

Can you spell pessimistic or its many synonmns? :confused: :confused: :confused:


I agree.

Stilla is always focused on the negative which is why I added him to my ignore list a long time ago.

icatch9
02-26-2003, 08:53 AM
I'm glad someone here sees the glass is half full instead of half empty.

Star Wars fans and Sci-Fi fans in general get bad reputations because of comments and attitudes that show up in this thread. Never happy with the thing we love most. It's quite sick and Im sure some shrink could do an amazing study on such people.

I am happy with the way things are, and very pleased with 99% of what Lucas, Lucas Film, ILM, and Hasbro do with the Star Wars universe. I guess that makes me a minority and someone who is full of hot air. So be it. :cool:

Darth Shifty
02-26-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
1) How does Han fly the Falcon? I see no controls except a lever that goes forward and backward for hyperdrive and a few buttons? There's a still shot of Leia with a small silver handset from ESB, but that's it.


When the Star Destroyers are hot on the tail of the Falcon prior to entering the asteroid field in ESB, Han grabs the flight stick when he says "We can still out-manuever 'em." Lando also uses the flight stick when flying in the Death Star.

It seems that most of the routine flying is done by the ship's auto pilot or by droids. But when evading 5 Star Destroyers and flying into an asteroid field, you probably want to fly that bucket of bolts manually.;)

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
Problems with the OT:
3) Why does Executor fall into the Death Star II point-first? Why does it fall at all?

Every heavenly body has a gravitational pull no matter what its size. 2 astronauts floating in space would have a gravitational attraction between them, albeit very, very small. With the given size, of the Death Star as well as the Executioner there would be a pretty good pull between the two objects.


My questions:

1. Why was the shutdown switch for the tractor beam is such a precarious place? On the back side of a pillar in the middle over a deep pit with only a small, perhaps 2', ledge to stand on? I hope the engineer that designed that one got fired.

2. Why was the best delivery system for the Gungan's only offensive weapon a sling?

3. Why wasn't the ION cannon fired at the AT-AT's?

4. Why was a ship designed with a harpoon? that basically only fires rearward? why does it require a second crew member to operate it?

icatch9
02-26-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port

My questions:

1. Why was the shutdown switch for the tractor beam is such a precarious place? On the back side of a pillar in the middle over a deep pit with only a small, perhaps 2', ledge to stand on? I hope the engineer that designed that one got fired.

2. Why was the best delivery system for the Gungan's only offensive weapon a sling?

3. Why wasn't the ION cannon fired at the AT-AT's?

4. Why was a ship designed with a harpoon? that basically only fires rearward? why does it require a second crew member to operate it?

1. That was not the off switch for the tractor beam. Remember is was a power station. A loss at any one of the power stations would cause the tractor beam to fail. Also, I imagin that Ben didn't use that power station the way it was supposed to. Chances are it had some sort of control that would rotate the thing to wich ever control you wanted. However, if Ben did rotate the thing, others would have herd him and thus alerted them to his presense.

2. The gungans also had catapults. What method would you have them use. Clearly they are a tad bit technolgically advanced what with the bongos and all. Pus that to me looked like a Naboo craft, not made by the Gungans. Something given or stolen. Even if they did make the bongo, that doesn't mean they use thier technology for weapons. They have th boomers that are good enough. Weapons only grow in power to protech from other powerful weapons. The gungans kept to themselves and thus, didn't need more powerful weapons to protecht themselves. The boomers did the job well.

3. The ion cannon was made for surface to air attack. Chances are it couldn't set a target on an object so low to the ground. Also, we don't know what effect the Ion would have on reble ground troups near the AT ATs. We wouldn't drop a nuke near a deployment of Army Rangers would we?

4. The harpoon on the speeder may not be standard issue. Seems to me that those rebles are pretty handy and would have probally added such a thing. No real need for it, but it's sure handy when you do need it. It needed a rear gunman just like other fighters of WW II and today. The Speeder is one of the few fighters that could actually cover it's own tail. The X Wing relies on others for that. Thats why Vader had such an easy job picking off X wings in the trench. They had no way to retaliate once they were targeted from behind. The snowspeed need a rear gunman for those reason. Remeber that the alliance was poor and didn't have the most sufisticated or best weapons/ships. They used what they had and got everything they could out of them.

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 12:03 PM
Thanks icatch9. This is fun. Anyone else have questions that others can try to answer?

stillakid
02-26-2003, 12:30 PM
A very special thanks to most of you for participating! :) Some really good suggestions are being put forth. I like the ION cannon problem. And FALCO is hilarious. I have wondered about that. Anymore?




In response to mini-rock's statement (though it's too bad he won't be able to read it), I believe that it's the better fan that is able to look into that which he enjoys to see both the good and bad. While someone who only focuses on the negative, which I am not despite the accusation (you've clearly only chosen to concentrate your attentions on my "negative" comments), would technically be a non-fan, I believe that just as little respect is shown to the Saga by those who refuse to acknowledge and accept that flaws exist. You can choose to live your life with blinders on, as illustrated by your "ignoring" me, but thank goodness the majority of the world has a far more open mind.

In fact, I once lost a good friend (or who I thought was a friend) because I was simply being honest with him concerning something he wasn't interested in hearing the truth about. Would I have been a better friend to just lie to him or "ignore" the issue altogether? What kind of true friend would do that? Unfortunately, he thinks like you, and didn't see it that way. :(

Truth can be hard sometimes. But welcome to the planet Earth.

Vortex
02-26-2003, 12:52 PM
I got another urk.

In ROTJ when R2 pushes 3PO over the side of Jabba's skiff during the battle, the droids go straight over the edge, yet the skiff expoldes and the heros have to fly quite a distance to pick up the droids, or retrieve them from being buried in the sand...Yet there's no chunks of metal or any sign of a massive explosion, on near or around the droids.

Also in ROTJ why weren't the droids painted in camo or some how dulled down? The infiltration team was all decked out in camo gear to blend into the forest...yet boom, a gold shiny droid and a shiny silver droid in the forest? What about the element of suprise?

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 12:59 PM
1. You would also think that the shield generator on Hoth would be protected by the very shield it's producing. Putting the generator outside the shield is like locking the door to your house with a deadbolt on the outside.

2. Why is Luke so pastey white when he lives on a planet with 2 suns?

3. It bothers me everytime I watch the final countdown to the Death Star blowing up the rebel base. "5 minutes" and there is a counter in the lower portion of the targeting screen showing numbers counting down at a mile a minute. At that rate the counter would hit zero in about 30 seconds. Everytime we get an update on the countdown the counter is only slightly closer to zero but its still humming along.

4. Why didn't anyone ever slap Luke

"That shot's impossible!"

"No it's not. I use to bulleye wamp rats back home..<smack>."

"Cram it kid."

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Also in ROTJ why weren't the droids painted in camo or some how dulled down? The infiltration team was all decked out in camo gear to blend into the forest...yet boom, a gold shiny droid and a shiny silver droid in the forest? What about the element of suprise?

That's funny. :D :D On the same note, you would think that the Imperials wouldn't be walking around in shiney white armor communicating via a loudspeaker.

How do the stormtroopers tell each other apart? I think a bunch of ST's yelling "HEY YOU IN THE WHITE" during a battle would be pretty confusing.

stillakid
02-26-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Also in ROTJ why weren't the droids painted in camo or some how dulled down? The infiltration team was all decked out in camo gear to blend into the forest...yet boom, a gold shiny droid and a shiny silver droid in the forest? What about the element of suprise?

I've always wondered how R2 manages to roll effortlessly through the untamed forest. Anyone who has ever gone off the beaten path will understand that question.

I'm sure minirock and co. will be around anytime now to tell me that R2 obviously used his Prequel Rockets to shoot over obstacles. :rolleyes:




Originally posted by tjovonovich
How do the stormtroopers tell each other apart? I think a bunch of ST's yelling "HEY YOU IN THE WHITE" during a battle would be pretty confusing.
Obviously, because they're ALL clones, it doesn't much matter...er, uh, except for the officers, who wear the same armor and are technically Stormtroopers, but um, somehow are exempt from being, uh, clones. So somehow, um, the clone Stormtroopers must be able to magically see through the armor to tell which Stormtroopers are officers and not, er, um, clones. (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=190795#post190795)

Is this making any sense?:rolleyes:

Vortex
02-26-2003, 05:11 PM
Sorry Silla...you got the quote wrong, the clone thing came from Exhaust Port, not me, but hey it happens...

Oh I got another one...

In EBS when the rebels are fleeing Echo Base, Han blasts the falcon out the "Back door" while snowtroopers are funneling in and setting up their guns prior to vaders arrival in the base, and in the next scene we see luke and some other pilots casually loading up their x-wings like nothing major is going on...he even has time to wave to them, while imps are searching and odds are surronding the base...no panic on the rebel pilots part.

Or how about in ANH when the sandtroopers are checking the street after the cantina incident and the squadron leader bangs on the door and says "open up" waits a few ticks an then says. "ok the doors locked move on to the next"...what the hell kid of search is that? Man give a man a chance to get to the door:) What kid of thinking is that? Doors locked, so there's nothing to hide... I'm amazed they didn't put a post-in note on the door that said sorry we missed you, we'll try back at 9 the next day.

Vortex
02-26-2003, 05:22 PM
whoops got another one...

When luke and obi wan are in the cantina and luke orders a drink, does he ever pay for it? Does he put in on a tab, or does the bar keep wave put it on the house after obi wan does a number on the thugs?

Beast
02-26-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I'm sure minirock and co. will be around anytime now to tell me that R2 obviously used his Prequel Rockets to shoot over obstacles. :rolleyes:
Nope, I won't tell you that. Because the official site and the Holonet both explained why R2 no longer has the booster rockets by the time of the OT. There's a thread around here somewhere. But basically, it was due to droids dropping out of the sky onto people. They discovered that they weren't reliable after a certain number of years, and after that point the rockets were either deactivated or removed and replaced with different tools. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Vortex
02-26-2003, 05:33 PM
I wonder if they installed those rotary spinning blades like Maximillian had in the movie "Black Hole"...

I can see it now, the newest R2 action figure Veggie Chopping R2

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
In EBS when the rebels are fleeing Echo Base, Han blasts the falcon out the "Back door" while snowtroopers are funneling in and setting up their guns prior to vaders arrival in the base, and in the next scene we see luke and some other pilots casually loading up their x-wings like nothing major is going on...he even has time to wave to them, while imps are searching and odds are surronding the base...no panic on the rebel pilots part.

Another question that arises out of that is why in the heck weren't they using the x-wings during the battle? The snowspeeder is a pretty small, albeit manuverable, ship but lack of fire power was a big issue. Get those X-Wings up there with their torpedos and 4 cannons! That would have taken those AT-AT's to school.

Vortex
02-26-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Another question that arises out of that is why in the heck weren't they using the x-wings during the battle? The snowspeeder is a pretty small, albeit manuverable, ship but lack of fire power was a big issue. Get those X-Wings up there with their torpedos and 4 cannons! That would have taken those AT-AT's to school.

hmmm...good question...not as cool in the scene? x-wing weren't un packed from the trip at that point? Had a stock pile of worthless, defenseless snowspeeders to use up?

El Chuxter
02-26-2003, 06:39 PM
That issues' actually been explored. The X-Wings aren't as effective in atmosphere at airspeeders (and the snowspeeders were cold-adapted airspeeders). Also, the Rebels had just learned that AT-AT's can be tripped and equipped their airspeeders accordingly.

JediTricks
02-26-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
How could the Falcon have gotten to Cloud City without a Hyperdrive! :eek: Clearly a silly contrivance.
I've always felt that Han and Chewie kept patching up the hyperdrive for hyperdrive jumps.


Originally posted by tjovonovich
At the end of ESB when luke, leia, lando and chewie are on the frigate and looking down onto the spiral armed galaxy...what the hell...it was a cool shot, but when you look at the star wars maps, they are in 1 galaxy and it sure didn't look like a solar system...
Could have been a nebula.


Originally posted by tjovonovich
Ok, there's no air is outter space, and its a vacuume, yet you can hear explosions, ships smouldered and burned...now if I remember my physics right...this is a no no. These explosions and ships flying by expel gaseous and gravitational wakes which impact the other ships causing sounds within their hulls. :D


Originally posted by tjovonovich
large floating metal trash in the trash compactor... Some of it was piled up on top of other stuff, but the floaties never claimed to be metal, only metallic-looking. It couldn't have all been metal as our heroes would have had crushed limbs long before R2 shut down the trash compactor.


Originally posted by El Chuxter
Okay, here's one that's always bugged me: Why do X-Wing starfighters need jet engines? I'm sure there's an EU explanation, but the designers 20 years ago gave them jet engines, and that's all there is to it. The explanation is far from EU, it's right there in the films: the X-wing Starfighter is a transatmospheric vessel, it's designed to fly both in space and planetary atmospheres.


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
I've often thought why the people whose window was now blocked by a space ship that's attached recently to the outer hull didn't call someone.
I never noticed a lot of windows on the Star Destroyer except for the forward-looking bridge.


Originally posted by kidhuman
When Luke went to strike the Emperor down and Vader stopped him, Vaders saber is in front of Lukes not behind How is that possible? Bad rotoscoping, the OT is full of that. :D


Originally posted by tjovonovich
In ROTJ when R2 pushes 3PO over the side of Jabba's skiff during the battle, the droids go straight over the edge, yet the skiff expoldes and the heros have to fly quite a distance to pick up the droids, or retrieve them from being buried in the sand...Yet there's no chunks of metal or any sign of a massive explosion, on near or around the droids. Ohh, oh, I had an answer for that... what was it? Oh yeah, ROTJ kinda sucks. ;) Even as a little kid R2 and 3PO's escape from the sail barge totally came off bad... and I mean "Rancor vs Luke matte-lines/lighting mismatching" bad.


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
2. Why is Luke so pastey white when he lives on a planet with 2 suns? Two words: gilligan hat :happy: :crazed:


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
3. It bothers me everytime I watch the final countdown to the Death Star blowing up the rebel base. "5 minutes" and there is a counter in the lower portion of the targeting screen showing numbers counting down at a mile a minute. At that rate the counter would hit zero in about 30 seconds. Everytime we get an update on the countdown the counter is only slightly closer to zero but its still humming along. It wasn't a chronographic counter, it was an energy recharge gauge. :D This used to bother me a lot actually, but it does kinda make sense as an energy recharge gauge since it's slower when the DS is moving because they're using more energy to move the dang thing, but it's faster when they get into orbit around Yavin because they're using Yavin's gravity well to closely orbit the planet thus catching up with the gas giant's 4th moon which is in a higher, slower orbit. Let's face it, the DS is gonna use a ridiculous amount of energy just standing still, so moving or shooting would make recharging that much slower. I think some early EU/backstory on ROTJ said that the DS1's batteries took an entire day to recharge after full-power firing while the DS2 was an even bigger threat to the rebellion because it only took a few minutes to recharge.


Originally posted by stillakid
I've always wondered how R2 manages to roll effortlessly through the untamed forest. Anyone who has ever gone off the beaten path will understand that question. R2 can use his legs, in biped or triped mode, to actually walk over stuff occasionally. You can see him doing so in both the OT and PT.


Originally posted by tjovonovich
In EBS when the rebels are fleeing Echo Base, Han blasts the falcon out the "Back door" while snowtroopers are funneling in and setting up their guns prior to vaders arrival in the base, and in the next scene we see luke and some other pilots casually loading up their x-wings like nothing major is going on...he even has time to wave to them, while imps are searching and odds are surronding the base...no panic on the rebel pilots part. Luke and the rest of Rogue Squadron are not in or very near Echo Base, they're in a separate area designated, basically the "B-site" that they can fall back to and regroup on the ground while the base is being used as a distraction to the Imperial forces.


Originally posted by tjovonovich
Or how about in ANH when the sandtroopers are checking the street after the cantina incident and the squadron leader bangs on the door and says "open up" waits a few ticks an then says. "ok the doors locked move on to the next"...what the hell kid of search is that? Man give a man a chance to get to the door:) What kid of thinking is that? Doors locked, so there's nothing to hide... I'm amazed they didn't put a post-in note on the door that said sorry we missed you, we'll try back at 9 the next day. They're in a hurry to cover a lot of area and don't consider that droids would be sneaky enough to actually lock a door. You see, it's very hot in those stormtrooper outfits normally and under the twin suns of Tatooine, it bakes their already weakened brains into monkey drool. ;)


Originally posted by tjovonovich
When luke and obi wan are in the cantina and luke orders a drink, does he ever pay for it? Does he put in on a tab, or does the bar keep wave put it on the house after obi wan does a number on the thugs? IIRC, he goes to put down a little chit-thingy.


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Another question that arises out of that is why in the heck weren't they using the x-wings during the battle? The snowspeeder is a pretty small, albeit manuverable, ship but lack of fire power was a big issue. Get those X-Wings up there with their torpedos and 4 cannons! That would have taken those AT-AT's to school. The X-wings are even less maneuverable than snowspeeders. The blasters mounted to the T-47 airspeeders were very powerful, just not powerful enough to get through the mighty shielding of the Imperial AT-AT. There's nothing to suggest that the X-wing's blaster cannons were any stronger. Proton torpedoes shouldn't be able to work in an atmosphere, the protonic envelope wouldn't be effective against atmosphereic gasses. Originally, the Snowspeeders were going to be decoupled Y-wing cockpits so I never took the issue of firepower as "the snowspeeders don't have enough" but rather that "the AT-AT's armor is too strong for blasters".


None of these nitpicky things bother me much about the OT or PT though, it's the overall writing and the characters and the choices they make that make the PT less enjoyable for me.

stillakid
02-26-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
None of these nitpicky things bother me much about the OT or PT though, it's the overall writing and the characters and the choices they make that make the PT less enjoyable for me.

You hit the nail on the head. This has always been my main point of contention between the groups of films. The OT may indeed be filled with incongrueties, but none really impact the actual story negatively in the same way the problems in the Prequels have.


But I will say, some minor things are being brought up that I either didn't notice before or never really put much thought into. Very interesting. Any more?

Exhaust Port
02-26-2003, 10:36 PM
It's funny to see how many people interpret or interpolate the many different scenes and technologies.

Why aren't all the military spaceships painted black? I can't think of a better visual camo than being all black in space. A cruiser the size of a small state painted a light grey is just asking to be shot at.

Vortex
02-27-2003, 12:26 AM
Its quite amazing how people justify answers to make things fit sometimes...but no matter how you slice it -

it all about the details.

Why is it, military trained stormtroopers are such horrible shots? Obi wan makes reference to accuracy blaster marks on the sandcrawler, and precision, yet in the death star scenes and at endor the stormies are such lousy shots? Luke and leia pick off how many after their swing to safety and the troopers shots are hardly even close? Even when luke went rambo on the stormies after he sees obi wan get cut down. he was just standing there, and no one could line him up or wing him? Or when luke and han are trapped down the prision hallway. Should have been like shooting fish in a barrel...

Why do all the imp officers have fuzzy side burns? Was it militray issue or standard?:)

stillakid
02-27-2003, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Or when luke and han are trapped down the prision hallway. Should have been like shooting fish in a barrel...


I always thought that if Han and Chewy had simply lined up that hole in the door in their sites, they could have held the Stormtroopers off indefinitely. But instead, they fire a couple wild shots, then run off to find Luke.

Beast
02-27-2003, 12:50 AM
Don't forget that alot of this has been brought up quite a while ago, in the Illogical Moments from the OT thread. But the biggest one from ANH is the fact that after coming out of the Trash Compactor, Han and Luke change out of their StormTrooper Armor and back into their regular clothes.

Disregarding the fact that it's impossible to fit their bulky clothing beneath the tight Stormie suit's body glove. Especially Han's vest. And even if they did somehow, where exactly did they hide their boots? They wouldn't have fit in Chewie's bag. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Vortex
02-27-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Don't forget that alot of this has been brought up quite a while ago, in the Illogical Moments from the OT thread. But the biggest one from ANH is the fact that after coming out of the Trash Compactor, Han and Luke change out of their StormTrooper Armor and back into their regular clothes.

Disregarding the fact that it's impossible to fit their bulky clothing beneath the tight Stormie suit's body glove. Especially Han's vest. And even if they did somehow, where exactly did they hide their boots? They wouldn't have fit in Chewie's bag. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Simple...they put their boots into a portable hole, that was in chewie's bag.

Darth Trymybestus
02-27-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
where exactly did they hide their boots?

In a locker room in the Death Star Locker Room of course! :D :crazed:

Exhaust Port
02-27-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I never noticed a lot of windows on the Star Destroyer except for the forward-looking bridge.

Look closer next time, there are tons.

http://www.starwars.com/community/feature/19971001/index_o1.html

http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html

Here's a small picture from the movie. It's hard to tell how many windows there are on the backside of the bridge but there are there. You can see a couple of them lit up.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/vidi6/avenger2.jpg

Vortex
02-27-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Look closer next time, there are tons.

http://www.starwars.com/community/feature/19971001/index_o1.html

http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html

Here's a small picture from the movie. It's hard to tell how many windows there are on the backside of the bridge but there are there. You can see a couple of them lit up.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/vidi6/avenger2.jpg


if any of you ever listened to Dr. Demento, it sort of gives a new definition to the old star trek song..."Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape'em off Jim"...

JediTricks
02-28-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Why aren't all the military spaceships painted black? I can't think of a better visual camo than being all black in space. A cruiser the size of a small state painted a light grey is just asking to be shot at. Also great for getting run into by other ships in your own fleet. :D A starship painted black would absorb more stellar radiation than one painted a neutral color like gray. This would be bad because thermally it'd stand out like a sore thumb on sensors, and also it'd be much more taxing on ship's resources to keep the crew & systems from getting cooked.


Originally posted by tjovonovich
Why is it, military trained stormtroopers are such horrible shots? It's hard to see out those helmets. The Empire uses these guys for cannon fodder, so they don't need much skill or training, their sheer numbers are the main weapon.


Originally posted by stillakid
I always thought that if Han and Chewy had simply lined up that hole in the door in their sites, they could have held the Stormtroopers off indefinitely. But instead, they fire a couple wild shots, then run off to find Luke. They have a limited number of shots per clip, I guess they realized that an elevator with at most 5 troopers in it would require several clips to kill. ;)


Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Look closer next time, there are tons.

Here's a small picture from the movie. It's hard to tell how many windows there are on the backside of the bridge but there are there. You can see a couple of them lit up. http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/vidi6/avenger2.jpg Could be sensors or running lights instead of windows. :D Besides, Imperials are trained not to look out the windows, the Emperor has posters all over the barracks that say "EYES FORWARD!!!" in order to keep them from falling into railing-free pits while distracted by lightsaber battles and such. ;)


Originally posted by tjovonovich
if any of you ever listened to Dr. Demento, it sort of gives a new definition to the old star trek song..."Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape'em off Jim"... One verse says "wipe 'em off Jim". :D

Vortex
02-28-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks


One verse says "wipe 'em off Jim". :D

Boy we are nerds huh...Its life jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it, Jim

Now, tell me what spock said...cause I forget...(and I wanna see just how well you ace the super nerd test:) )

JediTricks
02-28-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Boy we are nerds huh...Its life jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it, Jim

Now, tell me what spock said...cause I forget...(and I wanna see just how well you ace the super nerd test:) ) You just said it! "It's... life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it. It's life Jim but not as we know it, not as we know it... Captain." The alt-verse just adds "Well," to the beginning. Yes, I am that much of a loser. ;)

Vortex
03-01-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
You just said it! "It's... life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it. It's life Jim but not as we know it, not as we know it... Captain." The alt-verse just adds "Well," to the beginning. Yes, I am that much of a loser. ;)

I'd like to officially welcome you to the uber-nerd society.

Well if spock said that...what was bones's line? Wait, wasn't it...Its dead jim?

Exhaust Port
03-01-2003, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Also great for getting run into by other ships in your own fleet. :D A starship painted black would absorb more stellar radiation than one painted a neutral color like gray. This would be bad because thermally it'd stand out like a sore thumb on sensors, and also it'd be much more taxing on ship's resources to keep the crew & systems from getting cooked.

Just because your black doesn't necessarily mean you'll be any more thermally visable. The tiles on the space shuttle are black and they reflect the heat leaving the skin a few inches below the boiling plasma a fraction of that heat. The F-117 Stealth Fighter is black and aborbs/deflects radiation without reflecting it back to the sender.

So it's a matter of materials not color and carrying around ceramic tiles is no more draining on resources than carrying around the same weight in steel. Plus in a dogfight the "eyes" have it. That's why even with all our stealth capabilities they still bother to paint stuff in camo.

JON9000
03-02-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
I'd like to officially welcome you to the uber-nerd society.

Well if spock said that...what was bones's line? Wait, wasn't it...Its dead jim?

"It's worse than that- he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead Jim. It's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead!"

I alaways liked Scotty's line-

"Ye cannot change the laws of physics, laws of physics, laws of physics!"

I haven't heard that song in years and years.

:crazed:

Imperial Monarche
03-02-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


1.) How could the Falcon have gotten to Cloud City without a Hyperdrive! :eek: Clearly a silly contrivance.


if you look on the star maps recently produced with the New Jedi Order books, Hoth, Anoat and Bespin are like right next to each other so Han really wouldn't need hyperdrive, plus nobody said they made it there really quickly. they could have been flying in the ship for a few days, a trip that they could travel the entire galaxy with hyperdrive. besides, han was looking for a place to dock that was close because they didn't have hyperdrive so wahlah, cloud city.

Imperial Monarche
03-02-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos


1) How does Han fly the Falcon? I see no controls except a lever that goes forward and backward for hyperdrive and a few buttons? There's a still shot of Leia with a small silver handset from ESB, but that's it.
2) How can there be no visible breath from the Rebels inside Echo Base, while the ice walls remain unmelted?
3) Why does Executor fall into the Death Star II point-first? Why does it fall at all?
4) Why didn't the Empire just bomb Echo Base from orbit? The shield generator can't be that powerful or over the whole planet; shoot around it.
5) Why do no characters sweat on Tatooine?

1) most of the time, i figured han plotted a course and the computer flew the ship. but, watch in ESB when Han says "we can still out maneuver them!" he pulls a bunch of different levels that control the ships direction.

2) good point, perhaps there's a special coating on the walls that prevent them from melting.

3) space in star wars seems to have different elements than our space because there would be no laser bolts or sounds, which would make the space battles pretty boring. so, it's just like a battleship sinking, the front end goes first, not the back end.

4) the shield went just around the base, not the whole planet so what would be the point of bombing the planet, it wouldn't hit the base so theres no way to shoot around it.

5) african's don't sweat twenty four seven.

Imperial Monarche
03-02-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
I got another urk.

In ROTJ when R2 pushes 3PO over the side of Jabba's skiff during the battle, the droids go straight over the edge, yet the skiff expoldes and the heros have to fly quite a distance to pick up the droids, or retrieve them from being buried in the sand...Yet there's no chunks of metal or any sign of a massive explosion, on near or around the droids.



didn't the sail barge explode after they picked up the droids and was flying away.

Imperial Monarche
03-02-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
1. You would also think that the shield generator on Hoth would be protected by the very shield it's producing. Putting the generator outside the shield is like locking the door to your house with a deadbolt on the outside.



the shield generator wasn't outside the shield. it was inside, but the shield only protects from an energy bolt being shot from the outside of the shield to the inside. remember in TPM, the droids couldn't shoot inside, but they walked inside. so, the walkers walked inside the shield and blew it up. if the generator was outsde the shield, the Death Squadron coulda just bombed the generator, but as General Veers said, "The shield is strong enough to deflect any bombardment." so, they had to walk in there and destroy it

stillakid
03-02-2003, 02:46 PM
I forget if anyone else mentioned this, but it always struck me as pointless that Han and Co. had to get the shield generator deactivated before landing on Endor. The shield would emit in a cone-like shape from that gigantic radar dish. Landing on the planet wouldn't require that the shield around the Death Star be disabled.

Exhaust Port
03-02-2003, 11:12 PM
I noticed that too. Never seemed to make sense.

Imperial Monarche
03-03-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I forget if anyone else mentioned this, but it always struck me as pointless that Han and Co. had to get the shield generator deactivated before landing on Endor. The shield would emit in a cone-like shape from that gigantic radar dish. Landing on the planet wouldn't require that the shield around the Death Star be disabled.

who ever said it was the shield for the death star, it could have been a seperate shield that covered the planet because, think about it...endor had the shield generator of the death star and if anyone were able to get on the planet and knock it out, the death star would be a sitting duck so to speak. so, please consider all possiblities before making a specific judgement.

stillakid
03-03-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
who ever said it was the shield for the death star, it could have been a seperate shield that covered the planet because, think about it...endor had the shield generator of the death star and if anyone were able to get on the planet and knock it out, the death star would be a sitting duck so to speak. so, please consider all possiblities before making a specific judgement.

Here are the lines from that portion of the story:

ACKBAR
You can see here the Death Star orbiting the
forest Moon of Endor. Although the weapon
systems on this Death Star are not yet
operational, the Death Star does have a
strong defense mechanism. It is protected by
an energy shield, which is generated from the
nearby forest Moon of Endor. The shield must
be deactivated if any attack is to be
attempted. Once the shield is down, our
cruisers will create a perimeter, while the
fighters fly into the superstructure and
attempt to knock out the main reactor.

There's a concerned murmur.

ACKBAR (cont)
General Calrissian has volunteered to lead
the fighter attack

Han turns to Lando with a look of respect.

HAN
Good luck.

Lando nods his thanks.

HAN
You're gonna need it.

ACKBAR
General Madine.

Madine moves center stage.

GENERAL MADINE
We have stolen a small Imperial shuttle.
Disguised as a cargo ship, and using a secret
Imperial code, a strike team will land on the
moon and deactivate the shield generator.



While indeed there is "wiggle room" to allow your theory to be correct, it is also too clear by the above exchange that the only shield in existence at the DS worksite was the one surrounding the battle station and that is what the strike team needed the code for.

So, as usual, I have considered all the possibilities before drawing a conclusion.

Beast
03-03-2003, 09:28 PM
Basically I always figured that they had to pass thru it so they could land close by. The strike team was on foot, I assume that they didn't want to park the shuttle half a moon away. And since the size of the shield wave to envelop somthing the size of the death star would have been pretty huge, landing within walking distance is more advisable. Atleast wiser, since they didn't bring speeders of any kind.

Let's also remember that there was a command ship in place, they would have had to communicate with it anyway, and get permission to land. If they would have tried to make a direct landing without proper clerance, the Star Destroyer most likely would have fired first, and asked questions later. And if the Star Destroyer was monitering their trajectory until they entered the atmosphere, they would have wanted to land close to the proper area, to keep up appearances. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
03-03-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Basically I always figured that they had to pass thru it so they could land close by. The strike team was on foot, I assume that they didn't want to park the shuttle half a moon away. And since the size of the shield wave to envelop somthing the size of the death star would have been pretty huge, landing within walking distance is more advisable. Atleast wiser, since they didn't bring speeders of any kind.
The film itself doesn't specifically tell us where they parked, but we can surmise by the velocity and duration of the Speeder Bike chase, that they weren't very close at all. Actually, unless that chase went in circles, it should have taken Luke 'til nightfall to get back to the waiting strike force. Not only that, the heros go straight back the way Luke just came to look for Leia. Twice the time. I suppose they could have landed at dawn then the rest of the events transpired during the course of the day, but that looks like mid-morning to noon light on them, and if I'm remembering it correctly, the face of Endor with the Death Star orbiting above is in full sun, which means it's at least mid-day at the bunker. ('ll have to check the tape to be sure about that one.)

But I digress. The whole problem is that according to the script, they had to have the shield generator turned off for a period of time to allow them to land. But in doing so, an expectation by the ground forces would be that a shuttle would be arriving on the pad soon. It shouldn't have been too difficult for the Imperials to track the stolen shuttle to the woods, relay the info to the scouts (what else are they there for?), then attack. Of course, Vader knows this because he "felt" his son. But the lower commanders would have the inclination to run right out to stop the rebels and ask questions later.


Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Let's also remember that there was a command ship in place, they would have had to communicate with it anyway, and get permission to land. If they would have tried to make a direct landing without proper clerance, the Star Destroyer most likely would have fired first, and asked questions later. And if the Star Destroyer was monitering their trajectory until they entered the atmosphere, they would have wanted to land close to the proper area, to keep up appearances. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Yes, they probably would have to communicate with the ship for permission one way another, but that's not what the code was for:


61 INT STOLEN IMPERIAL SHUTTLE-COCKPIT
The group waits tensely.

HAN
They're not goin' for it, Chewie.

CONTROLLER (filtered)
Shuttle Tydirium, deactivation of the shield
will commence immediately. Follow your
present course.


Had Lucas/Kasdan left that last line out of the script, then it all would've made more sense. A simple "code transmission" like a secret password of the day would have sufficed. There was no need for the Strike Force to deactivate the shield in order for the story to continue.

Exhaust Port
03-04-2003, 02:13 AM
How did the gravity work in the Death Star? It looks like each level is stacked upon the other and the gravity of each deck makes the south pole "down" for every person on the planet. If this is the case those people at the south pole would have widows for floors and the gunners would be suspended in towers from the bottom of the planet.

Being that each body produces its own gravity attraction, the Death Star would be no different. Everything with mass would be drawn towards the center of the planet. Now with the floors stacked as such those on the floors below the equator would be drawn towards the floor by the artificial gravity as well as have the planet pulling them up. Those standing on the equator would have the artificial gravity pulling them down as well as the planet pulling them inward. Everyone would be walking around with quite a lean. Those on the top of the DS would have windows for a ceiling. What a nightmare it would be to account for the immense gravity shifts throughout the structure.

Even though the DS is smaller than our moon the gravity would probably be as strong if not stronger as it's a matter of mass, not size. The moon is bigger but the DS has a lot more mass being that it's all metal.

keith koth
03-05-2003, 05:19 PM
Even though the DS is smaller than our moon the gravity would probably be as strong if not stronger as it's a matter of mass, not size. The moon is bigger but the DS has a lot more mass being that it's all metal.

The core of our moon is mostly iron, as is Earth. This makes sense, since the moon was created by earthly materials.

The Death Star may have a steel hull, however, the death star is hollow on the inside, which would make it much lighter. :o

However, gravity can be increased by increasing the velocity of the rotation of the Death Star around it's central axis. :cool:

Exhaust Port
03-05-2003, 06:44 PM
Not really unless your living in a space station similar to the one in the movie 2001. In that station the rotation created the sense of gravity through inertia but the people walked around the inside of the donut shape. True gravity, is created by on objects mass and isn't effected by rotation of the object.

As for the density, the most recent studies on the moon's core puts it at about 1-3% of the total moons mass. Most of the material on the moon is made of space dirt/dust/rock. The earth on the other hand has a core that makes up about 33% of the planet. Quit a bit different.

Your right, the Death Star is a lattice work of metal leaving a good amount of space. But in relation with the amount of mass in an average spaceship in the SW universe, the DS dwarfs anything else out there. No matter the exact mass, the DS would have some serious gravity issues to address.

JON9000
03-06-2003, 10:38 AM
Even if the Death Star rotated it would not explain the gravity effect on the Millenium Falcon or various other ships like a Star Destroyer. Then again, ships seem to magically float on something called repulsors in the atmosphere.

the laws of physics are pretty much ignored in the trilogy. It is just one of those things you sort of have to get past in suspending your disbelief. I classify Star Wars more into the fantasy genre than science fiction.

keith koth
03-06-2003, 12:06 PM
Not really unless your living in a space station similar to the one in the movie 2001. In that station the rotation created the sense of gravity through inertia but the people walked around the inside of the donut shape. True gravity, is created by on objects mass and isn't effected by rotation of the object.

My mistake! I thought we were talking about the gravitational effects of the Death Star on it's occupants.

You are right...the only way the Death Star's gravity could have an effect on ships, debris, etc. is with the gravity created by the mass of the Death Star.


As for the density, the most recent studies on the moon's core puts it at about 1-3% of the total moons mass. Most of the material on the moon is made of space dirt/dust/rock. The earth on the other hand has a core that makes up about 33% of the planet. Quit a bit different.

Are you sure about the moon's core? where did you find that information? None the less, our moon is much larger than the Death Star.


Your right, the Death Star is a lattice work of metal leaving a good amount of space. But in relation with the amount of mass in an average spaceship in the SW universe, the DS dwarfs anything else out there. No matter the exact mass, the DS would have some serious gravity issues to address.

What do you mean by gravity issues?

A ship with any type of interstellar propulsion system should have no trouble escaping the gravitational affects the Death Star may have...unless you are captured by the Death Star's "tractor beam".

Exhaust Port
03-06-2003, 01:07 PM
I was talking about the effect of gravity on its occupants. The rotation of an object in no way effects the gravity force on people inside, on the surface or orbiting the mass. If someone is standing on our north pole, do they not feel any gravity because they aren't rotating? Is the gravity any stronger standing at the equator because that person is traveling at 1000 mph versus the 0 mph at the poles? No, gravity is a function mass and an object/persons distance from said mass not someones angular speed.

The gravitational pull of the DS pulls everyone nearby and on the DS towards the center. Well, if you're not standing vertically above the center of the DS (similarly to us standing vertically above the center of our planet) you'll be subjected gravitational side loads.

Standing on an Earth's pole, the center of the earth is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you straight down. Standing on the Earth's equator, the center of the earth is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you straight down.

On the DS if you stand on the north pole the center of the structure is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you down. Standing at the equator the center of the structure is now to your side and gravity pulls you inward not downward towards your feet. This would be similar (but not as strong as) to laying on your side on the Earth's equator. The center of the earth's mass is no longer below your feet so you now feel a gravitational side load.

Yes, the mass of the moon may be less than the moon. The moon had enough gravity to keep all the astronauts pinned to it's surface, albeit with a slight floating action. Even with less mass, the DS would have a troubling amount of pull. As you would walk around the equatorial floors of the DS you would have an invisible force pushing you to the side. Imaging walking around for weeks with someone constantly pushing you sideways. Additionally, all the DS's floors would have gravity pulling from different directions. Working at the south pole would mean that you'd be fighting a contant slight pull upwards. The equatorial folks would be constantly fighting the urge to fall over due to a side pulling force.

Those are the gravitation issues which I was referring to.


The moon's core:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/water-99l.html

keith koth
03-06-2003, 01:23 PM
I was talking about the effect of gravity on its occupants. The rotation of an object in no way effects the gravity force on people inside, on the surface or orbiting the mass.

rotation has no effect upon the gravitational pull? :eek:

Someone should tell NASA that!

have you heard of centrifugal force? NASA uses a human centrifuge to test the limits of gravatational pull on astronauts.

check out this link for an example of what I mean:

http://spaceresearch.nasa.gov/general_info/07feb_stronggravity_lite.html

if the Death Star were to rotate with a force equal to 1G (or 1X Earth's gravity, then the occupants of the Death Star would have consistant gravity troughout the station)

The Death Star is nothing more than a rotating sphere in the vacume of space...just as Earth is!

In summary, artificial gravity IS possible through the centrifugal force of rotation. :D

stillakid
03-06-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
I was talking about the effect of gravity on its occupants. The rotation of an object in no way effects the gravity force on people inside, on the surface or orbiting the mass. If someone is standing on our north pole, do they not feel any gravity because they aren't rotating? Is the gravity any stronger standing at the equator because that person is traveling at 1000 mph versus the 0 mph at the poles? No, gravity is a function mass and an object/persons distance from said mass not someones angular speed.

The gravitational pull of the DS pulls everyone nearby and on the DS towards the center. Well, if you're not standing vertically above the center of the DS (similarly to us standing vertically above the center of our planet) you'll be subjected gravitational side loads.

Standing on an Earth's pole, the center of the earth is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you straight down. Standing on the Earth's equator, the center of the earth is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you straight down.

On the DS if you stand on the north pole the center of the structure is directly below your feet and gravity pulls you down. Standing at the equator the center of the structure is now to your side and gravity pulls you inward not downward towards your feet. This would be similar (but not as strong as) to laying on your side on the Earth's equator. The center of the earth's mass is no longer below your feet so you now feel a gravitational side load.

Yes, the mass of the moon may be less than the moon. The moon had enough gravity to keep all the astronauts pinned to it's surface, albeit with a slight floating action. Even with less mass, the DS would have a troubling amount of pull. As you would walk around the equatorial floors of the DS you would have an invisible force pushing you to the side. Imaging walking around for weeks with someone constantly pushing you sideways. Additionally, all the DS's floors would have gravity pulling from different directions. Working at the south pole would mean that you'd be fighting a contant slight pull upwards. The equatorial folks would be constantly fighting the urge to fall over due to a side pulling force.

Those are the gravitation issues which I was referring to.


The moon's core:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/water-99l.html

Ohhhh. Are you suggesting that the flooring in the Death Star was constructed in a horizontal fashion, like a building? I'd have to dig out some of those schematics to check, but I was always under the impression that the engineers that designed the "ball" space station would use spherical flooring in which the multiple levels would cascade down towards the core as opposed to the "up down" flooring that would introduce the gravity problems you suggest.

keith koth
03-06-2003, 01:28 PM
I was always under the impression that the engineers that designed the "ball" space station would use spherical flooring in which the multiple levels would cascade down towards the core as opposed to the "up down" flooring that would introduce the gravity problems you suggest.

stillakid is absolutely correct! :)

I should have included that bit of information in my post above.

Exhaust Port
03-06-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
rotation has no effect upon the gravitational pull? :eek:

That's exactly what I'm saying. The ability of an object to attract other objects with its own gravitational field has no bearing on its spin.


Someone should tell NASA that!

They already know this so there's no point.


have you heard of centrifugal force?

Yes, and it's a ficticional force. Centripetal force is what causes the sense of gravity.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/CentrifugalForce.html


if the Death Star were to rotate with a force equal to 1G (or 1X Earth's gravity, then the occupants of the Death Star would have consistant gravity troughout the station)

Did you read your own article?

"Suppose you're lying on a short-radius centrifuge, with your head near the center, and your feet at the outside, and suppose you have 1-g at your feet. Your head would feel only about 0.2-g, or even less." That's not quite what you would experience in Earth's gravitational field!"

The center of a spinning object would feel no effect of a centripetal force but it would increase as you moved further from out.

Gravity is created by Mass. Not by the spin of an object. If you don't believe me then let me know where the "spin" variable goes in this formula.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Gravity.html


The Death Star is nothing more than a rotating sphere in the vacume of space...just as Earth is!

Our rotation has no effect in our ability to stick to the surface of our planet if that is what your implying.


In summary, artificial gravity IS possible through the centrifugal force of rotation. :D

Ok, my point has always been that due to the mass of the DS the occupants would be subjected to a gravitational force, albeit small, due to the mass of the station.

Keith, you've repeatedly stated that spinning the station would create an artificial gravity. First, at no point is there mention that the station is spinning, it would make it difficult to use the only weapon it has. Secondly, this "centifugal" force could create an artificial gravity but that would require the inhabitants to walk about on the inside of the DS sphere. Meaning, the DS surface would infact be the floor for the people inside. That is not what we see.

Exhaust Port
03-06-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Ohhhh. Are you suggesting that the flooring in the Death Star was constructed in a horizontal fashion, like a building? I'd have to dig out some of those schematics to check, but I was always under the impression that the engineers that designed the "ball" space station would use spherical flooring in which the multiple levels would cascade down towards the core as opposed to the "up down" flooring that would introduce the gravity problems you suggest.

Nothing that we're shown would imply that the floors of the DS are arranged in a spherical shape. If that were the case, the ships landing at the DS would have to land in a manner similar to those ships landing at Mos Eisly (sp?). Your ships landing gear would have to touch the surface of the ship.

What we see of the landing pads at the DS are that they are arranged perpendicular to the surface. The landing ships approach the DS at a 90 angle to the surface and land on a platform. Looking of of the landing dock you look straight out into space. On a spherical plan, you would land in a hangar similar to your own car's garage. Looking out you would see the horizon of the DS.

It would make sense to arrange the DS in this spherical layout but with the landing decks set up as they are I doubt that all the decks are spherical EXCEPT the landing docks that are arranged at a 90 degree angle with their own gravity turned at a 90 degree angle as well. That would be an absolute gravitational nightmare.


I appologize if this is a double post. The first one didn't seem to take.

2-1B
03-06-2003, 03:31 PM
I always thought it was perpendicular, too.
When the Falcon is being pulled in it goes STRAIGHT inward and those stormies are standing there looking straight out. They weren't looking "up."
IIRC. :crazed:

stillakid
03-06-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Nothing that we're shown would imply that the floors of the DS are arranged in a spherical shape. If that were the case, the ships landing at the DS would have to land in a manner similar to those ships landing at Mos Eisly (sp?). Your ships landing gear would have to touch the surface of the ship.

What we see of the landing pads at the DS are that they are arranged perpendicular to the surface. The landing ships approach the DS at a 90 angle to the surface and land on a platform. Looking of of the landing dock you look straight out into space. On a spherical plan, you would land in a hangar similar to your own car's garage. Looking out you would see the horizon of the DS.

It would make sense to arrange the DS in this spherical layout but with the landing decks set up as they are I doubt that all the decks are spherical EXCEPT the landing docks that are arranged at a 90 degree angle with their own gravity turned at a 90 degree angle as well. That would be an absolute gravitational nightmare.


I appologize if this is a double post. The first one didn't seem to take.

I see. Hmm? Maybe there's a gigantic magnet in the core and everybody on board has to wear steel toed boots. :D

Exhaust Port
03-06-2003, 04:30 PM
I'm going to say Velco shoes.

keith koth
03-07-2003, 02:45 PM
Perhaps the core of the Death Star contains some sort of super dense material, which provides adequate gravity.

From what I understand, a teaspoon full of particles from a neutron star weighs more than Earth.

If the core of the Death Star contained the proper ammount of this sort of material, then the structure could be built in a stacked horizontal manner and gravity would be relatively consistant throughout the inhabitated areas of the Death Star.

Am I crazy? :crazed:

JEDIpartner
03-07-2003, 03:27 PM
and neither do the prequels. I am quite happy with both and I say... no one is going to change my mind about it. Yes, there is a certain energy abou the OT that is lacking in the PT, but you know what... I don't care! I still enjoy them both on their own merits. The end.

keith koth
03-07-2003, 03:34 PM
I don't care! I still enjoy them both on their own merits. The end.

Me too. Even JarJar and the ewoks!

Exhaust Port
03-07-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Perhaps the core of the Death Star contains some sort of super dense material, which provides adequate gravity.

From what I understand, a teaspoon full of particles from a neutron star weighs more than Earth.

If the core of the Death Star contained the proper ammount of this sort of material, then the structure could be built in a stacked horizontal manner and gravity would be relatively consistant throughout the inhabitated areas of the Death Star.

Am I crazy? :crazed:

With that explaination? I'll say yes. ;)

keith koth
03-07-2003, 04:22 PM
With that explaination? I'll say yes.

The real geniuses in this world are the ones who come up with theories, not those who shoot them down! :cool:

Do you have a better explanation, or do you prefer to protect your intellectual integrity by not creating an original thought? :eek:

Imperial Monarche
03-07-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
and neither do the prequels. I am quite happy with both and I say... no one is going to change my mind about it. Yes, there is a certain energy abou the OT that is lacking in the PT, but you know what... I don't care! I still enjoy them both on their own merits. The end.

well said. i do agree that the PT doesn't exactly have the same kind of fun that the OT had, but it has a different kind of fun and it's still star wars. i mean, everyone has their opinions and they do make for some good debate, but what i'm tired of is people that claim to be star wars fans constantly knocking the stuff they supposedly "love". i love God and Jesus (for you out there that believe in Christianity) but i'm not gonna knock Him for anything. i love me girl but i'm not gonna sit there and point out all the stuff i don't like about her because i love her as a whole, not the little things about her. star wars is the same. yeah, some of it's not that great or not the stuff we want to see, but nobodies perfect. especially not George Lucas. the thing that i've always said, and will continue to say, is people like Stillakid and all those that have nothing good to say about the PT didnt make star wars, Lucas did. it's his story all the way. let him tell it the way he wants to tell it. dont like it, dont watch it. give opinions and leave it at that, dont complain about something none of you can change. everyone knows Lucas very rarely listens to the views, and rightfully so. who wants to be telling a story and have someone in the audience interrupt them and say, "I'm sorry, i really don't like that idea. maybe you should do it this way." which is exactly what some out there are doing. i agree, there are somethings in the PT that is stupid, but i don't get on here and complain about them every post i make. i'll give my opinion, let it go because theres nothing i can do about it. so, what it all comes down to is hate if you want, but a real, true fan loves regardless. i mean, wat kind of football team fan stops rooting for their team if they do bad one season. so, if stillakid or anybody out there wanna give me a piece of their mind because i make it out like the true fans should just take it however we get it, then they are right. it's Lucas' story, let him tell it. don't like it, don't watch it. if Lucas decided to just totally screw up the story, i wouldn't watch it. sorry for the sermon.

Exhaust Port
03-07-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Perhaps the core of the Death Star contains some sort of super dense material, which provides adequate gravity.

From what I understand, a teaspoon full of particles from a neutron star weighs more than Earth.

If the core of the Death Star contained the proper ammount of this sort of material, then the structure could be built in a stacked horizontal manner and gravity would be relatively consistant throughout the inhabitated areas of the Death Star.

Am I crazy? :crazed:

The reason I didn't spend anymore time to "shoot down" your theory is that this one stems from the same errors that you've continued to perpetuate throughout your previous posts. Your lack of basis physics is apparent.

Placing a highly dense material in the center of a mass would not provide equal, perpendicular gravity in a horizontal layered structure. It just doesn't work no matter what you saw in a Scifi movie.

I think Stillakid had the only explaination that would work for this type of structure. A spherical shape requires a spherical floor plane but that is not what the DS has. Both the landing bays and building of the DS II show that the DS uses a horizontal floor plan.

The purpose of this thread is pointing out those things in the OT that go against common sense or the laws of physics. Being that this universe has to answer to no laws they can get away with anything. With that being true, not everything can be explained or justified they must only be excepted or ignored to enjoy the movie.

There is sound is space in the OT. It can't be explained, just accepted.

There is no fly on the Stormtrooper armor. Sucks for them but we except it.

The DS is designed in an illogical manner that defies the laws of physics. It can't be explained, just accepted.


The real geniuses in this world are the ones who come up with theories, not those who shoot them down!

Cold Fusion?!?! Only those that are concerned about being considered geniuses make up those statements.


Do you have a better explanation

There is no other explaination other than it's PFM (Pure F'n Magic: You can figure out the F). No explaination is required, just accept it or ignore it. I just accept that it is what it is and move on.


or do you prefer to protect your intellectual integrity by not creating an original thought?

I think checking my past posts I could find original thought or 2. Ask Stillakid, I think we've gone around and around a couple times. Of course a lot of people have done the same. ;)

Beast
03-07-2003, 05:33 PM
Here's a fun well thought out thesis on the Death Star, including it's symmetry and gravity. The Technical Commentaries site is actually pretty well done, in my opinion. :)


Symmetry and gravity.

One of the brilliant points of Starlog's STAR WARS Technical Journal was the examination of the internal symmetry of the Death Stars. The structural symmetry reflects the local orientation of artificial gravity within particular parts of the battle station.

Over most of the outer surface the gravity is directed towards the core, just like that of a natural planet. The decks are oriented accordingly and the surface is festooned with turbolaser towers and skyscrapers of various kinds, like part of a city. This arrangement caters for the psychological comfort of the crew, as humans have evolved as planet-bound beings.

An exception to this symmetry exists in the equatorial waistband trench. There the gravity is directed parallel to the rotational axis of the sphere so that one hemisphere is "up" and the other is "down". This arrangement seems designed to facilitate the takeoff and landing of starships. A pilot faces his ship directly into the docking bay, moving "horizontally" in the local gravitational frame. Presumably this is much easier than the alternative "vertical" ascent/descent experienced in a planet-like gravitational field.

This planar, axisymmetric layout seems to prevail throughout most of the volume of the Death Star. The exposed interior of the Death Star II showed a distinctive planar cylindrical grain. If the decks and mechanisms of this region had a planet-like gravity then we would expect layering in spherical shells instead. In fact the region of spherical symmetry seems only to involve the outermost skin of the station.

Crossing the interface between regions of different gravity could be discomforting for the crew. The interfaces are never shown on film, but they might be similar to the access tube leading to the laser cannon stations of the Millennium Falcon, where the gunner climbs through regions of mutually-perpendicular gravity by clinging to a ladder. Perhaps regions of different gravity in the Death Star are unconnected and self-contained, preventing the disorientation problems altogether. Perhaps there are corridors which curve around gently, with the direction of gravity varying smoothly from one region to the other. Perhaps the adjustment is made via a ride in a turbolift. Turbolifts are already likely to have their own inertial dampers and self-contained artificial gravity systems for the comfort and safety of occupants.

The nett gravitational field of each battle station is distinct from the local artificial gravity of any particular subsection. The natural, long-range field depends on the station's total mass and the observer's distance from the center of mass, like the external gravity field of a real moon.

The contribution to the station's natural gravity by the mass-energy of its power systems dominates over that of the station's basic structure. If the station was empty of fuel then it would act like a small moon of unusually low density. With the addition of sufficient mass-energy to power the destruction of several worlds, the nett gravity might approach that of a small terrestrial planets.

Without detailed knowledge about how much power the Death Stars typically carried at a given time, it is impossible to guess the station's ability to retain an external atmosphere. The argument is redundant however, since atmospheric containment shields applied at hangar apertures and the use of supplementary air canisters by stormtroopers on extended outdoor duty indicate that the station designers intended to maintain an external vacuum and keep all of the atmosphere internal. The fact that neither battle station showed the slightest degree of atmospheric haze near the surface shows that conditions on the outer hull were indeed quite airless.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html#symmetry
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Exhaust Port
03-07-2003, 06:13 PM
Seems to be a conflict of blueprints. This one seems to show a spherical layout.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/blue/dsblue2.gif

stillakid
03-16-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Nothing that we're shown would imply that the floors of the DS are arranged in a spherical shape. If that were the case, the ships landing at the DS would have to land in a manner similar to those ships landing at Mos Eisly (sp?). Your ships landing gear would have to touch the surface of the ship.

What we see of the landing pads at the DS are that they are arranged perpendicular to the surface. The landing ships approach the DS at a 90 angle to the surface and land on a platform. Looking of of the landing dock you look straight out into space. On a spherical plan, you would land in a hangar similar to your own car's garage. Looking out you would see the horizon of the DS.

It would make sense to arrange the DS in this spherical layout but with the landing decks set up as they are I doubt that all the decks are spherical EXCEPT the landing docks that are arranged at a 90 degree angle with their own gravity turned at a 90 degree angle as well. That would be an absolute gravitational nightmare.


I appologize if this is a double post. The first one didn't seem to take.

I thought of something else to include. In ROTJ, Palpatine's Throne Room has it's gravity parallel to the surface just a few hundred yards below, yet we can also see, as you've pointed out, that the gravity at the surface is perpendicular to the surface, at least near the equator. I suppose that the Emperor's Throne Room could be located at the north pole of the DS, though. I haven't looked to see if that's the case. But what's also interesting is that the space battle taking place in the distance just happens to be situated along the same "horizon" as the Emperor's vantage point. Pretty convenient, huh! :)

Darth Jax
03-17-2003, 10:43 AM
here's my question - why can the AT-AT's walk through the shield on Hoth yet an A-wing explode when it hits the shield around the death star in ROTJ?

Exhaust Port
03-17-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
But what's also interesting is that the space battle taking place in the distance just happens to be situated along the same "horizon" as the Emperor's vantage point. Pretty convenient, huh! :)

I would love to see a space battle take place that doesn't conform to the "same" horizon" battle. I remember a couple of the missions in Tie Fighter (or was it X-Wing :confused: ) by LucasArts used the different horizon setup. A space environment is the only place that would allow for a capital ships pointing in all directions. I think Star Trek only has a few instances where they used the multiple horizon.


Originally posted by Darth Jax
why can the AT-AT's walk through the shield on Hoth yet an A-wing explode when it hits the shield around the death star in ROTJ?

Even in TPM, the primative Gungan shields were able to slow a physical object from passing through. The battle droids had to struggle to pass through the shields. But as you pointed out, the shields of the future did nothing to stop or even slow AT-AT's from passing through the shields.

bobafrett
03-17-2003, 05:19 PM
I love the OT, always have, always will, no matter how silly some of the dialogue may be, or how many things may not make sense. It's a science fiction film, if we sit here and pick it apart, then it doesn't make it fun to watch. Maybe it's the fact that the original trilogy came out when I was still young, but it will always be a treasured part of my childhood, and continues to bring enjoyment to me today! I love being a Star Wars fan, nerd, whatever.

Well, I have to get ready for work, but this has been interesting to read.

Exhaust Port
03-17-2003, 05:34 PM
For myself and my friends, finding the inaccuracies in a Sci-fi don't spoil the fun. What's been discussed here doesn't do anything to damage the film or what it's meant to me when I was 8 or even now.

Now I do have a problem with inaccuracies in "historical" movie. The biggest violator of that was Pearl Harbor in my opinion. blah.

bobafrett
03-18-2003, 02:32 AM
I was dragged kicking and screaming to Pearl Harbor, by a girl I was dating who has a thing for Ben Affleck. That movie was a three hour headache for me. Thank God I'm not dating her anymore, because she bought the DVD!

Oh, and it didn't spoil the fun of watching the OT, but I'd just rather not think about it while I'm watching the film. That's fairly easy for me, because I'm rather simple minded. In fact, it took me forever to spot the Stormtrooper who bumps his head on the door to the control room, because I would always forget to watch for it when I was into the movie.

Vortex
03-18-2003, 10:01 AM
Oh wait...I got another.

In ANH, right after luke gets the droids, cleans them up, listens to the message, then goes for a quick, short dinner. He says he has to go finish cleaning up the droids...then next thing we know, bamb is sort of dark, but not too dark. And R2 takes off.

My question is, how the hell did the little guy travel so far so fast.
and secondly...why couldn't luke or 3p0 see any sort of track. You could argue it was windy, but look at the tracks they left when they hit the planet and started moving away from the pod.

I wanna know how a little droid, who just trundles along can get so far so fast on sand...yet when they pick him up in the canyon he just sort of poking along.

Deoxyribonucleic
03-18-2003, 01:36 PM
I was a "prequel lover" but never to the extent of the original trilogy, then after seeing EP1 so many times, the character Jar Jar got on my nerves something fierce and I became a "prequel hater." Then EP2 came out, I thought it was alright and then I became a "prequel so so" and then the turning point for whatever reason was when I picked up the EP2 dvd...it just did something to me and now I love the originals of course but I also really dig the prequels and am very excited for EP3 to tie everything together. I just get a kick outta all of them and am thankful that I was born when I was :)

Now, if we could just get Bush to "follow the ways of the force" I think the whole world would be alot better off! :D

stillakid
03-19-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Oh wait...I got another.

In ANH, right after luke gets the droids, cleans them up, listens to the message, then goes for a quick, short dinner. He says he has to go finish cleaning up the droids...then next thing we know, bamb is sort of dark, but not too dark. And R2 takes off.

My question is, how the hell did the little guy travel so far so fast.
and secondly...why couldn't luke or 3p0 see any sort of track. You could argue it was windy, but look at the tracks they left when they hit the planet and started moving away from the pod.

I wanna know how a little droid, who just trundles along can get so far so fast on sand...yet when they pick him up in the canyon he just sort of poking along.

He's got the same motors that allow the Falcon to get to Cloud City. ;)

stillakid
03-19-2003, 11:23 AM
...this thread has gone remarkably well. Thanks to all for participating.

What I'd like to know is why it's okay to bring up these (albeit minor) problems that exist in the OT, yet whenever someone mentions a problem with the Prequels, which are far more obvious and tend to deal with characters and continuity for the most part, they get the crap kicked out of them? Why the double-standard?

Vortex
03-19-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
[B
What I'd like to know is why it's okay to bring up these (albeit minor) problems that exist in the OT, yet whenever someone mentions a problem with the Prequels, which are far more obvious and tend to deal with characters and continuity for the most part, they get the crap kicked out of them? Why the double-standard? [/B]

Its like taking away a security blanket, shooting holes in their belief system, telling them that santa doesn't exist.

Some people use them too heavily as an escape.

And we all know people like to bit and fight back when their rugs get pulled out from under them.

stillakid
03-19-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Its like taking away a security blanket, shooting holes in their belief system, telling them that santa doesn't exist.

Some people use them too heavily as an escape.

And we all know people like to bit and fight back when their rugs get pulled out from under them.

...or close their eyes like MiniRock.

I suppose you're right. I expect too much objectivity from people I think. sigh.:(

Vortex
03-19-2003, 12:32 PM
We are taught at many times in life, by our folks, church, school, and political leaders just accept things as they are. Its like the old homage...don't ask a question you don't want to hear an answer to.

People like blinders and ingornat bliss sometimes...keeps their life easy and uncomplicated.

mini-rock
03-19-2003, 02:27 PM
Or maybe it's b/c there are people who have a deeper passion for the Prequels over the OT or who love the PT as much as the OT, or the excessive bashing of these and the man who created it. Or maybe it was the belittling of anyone who came forward who said they like the prequels, or the insults in intelligence when someone praised the Prequels. I could go on, but anyone who cares enough can just look up old stillakid posts (TPM line by line is one) to see what I mean. And there are others too. Sure he will try to turn it around and make it SEEM like it's the prequel fans who are the only ones who get bent outta shape whenever an unfavorable post is made, but that's what he does. He's better with words than most people will ever be (especially me). Now he's gone from bashing the prequels to bashing the OT, and getting forumites to do the same. Kinda reminds me of a certain saga.

JediTricks
03-19-2003, 09:40 PM
Stilla, that was unnecessary. You don't need to single other forumites out to get your point across. Personal attacks are not allowed - that goes for everybody here.

stillakid
03-20-2003, 12:10 AM
That wasn't a personal attack. I was using an actual historical event to illustrate a point. If an individual doesn't agree with the historical account, then we can discuss that. If the individual would like to discuss my evaluation of why said event took place, then we can discuss that as well.

As it stands, MiniRock announced previously that I am on his ignore list. Based on previous discussions, I concluded that it was because he didn't appreciate my evaluations of the Star Wars films and instead prefers to see only the good and as such, prefers to not listen to anyone with negative comments about the films. That's fine and that's all I was relaying in the previous post. Not an attack, just a statement of the situation.

:)

Imperial Monarche
03-20-2003, 10:27 AM
I don't agree with Stilla, and as it is I get really irritated and angry when he posts something because 9 times outta 10, he posts something negative...but, isn't that the point of these forums...to spark debates. i mean, if everyone was kind and not a critic, there would be no fun. it's fun to battle back and forth, knowing that nobody will really win. i don't like Stilla's comments and i do agree he tends to switch things around to make it look like people that like the PT are idiots, but there's two sides to a certain type of people- the good guys and the bad guys. nobody would come to the forums if everyoe was all happy and said nothin bad...why do people watch American Idol, we wanna see what Simon will say next because he's the bad cop to the good cop. keep doin your thing Stilla...even though i don't like your comments, whenever i see your name i just gotta see what you got to say.

geez, i must be gettin soft ecause i never thought i would be sticking up for Stillakid.

Exhaust Port
03-20-2003, 02:09 PM
Getting back to the original intent of this thread:

Considering that the primary users of the Astromechs were humans/aliens why were they programed to talk in a language of their own and not a form of basic? Ideally you'd think they would be able to communicate with their operators without the need of a translator, right?

Darth Jax
03-20-2003, 02:50 PM
astromechs were designed to interface with ships. protocol/translator droids were designed to interact with humans and alien species.

while most of my taking part in discussions on ssg is simply reading them. i enjoy everything about star wars. listening to someone with negative comments about any of the films, figures, or EU source material is fine. everyone is entitled to their opinion, doesn't diminish my enjoyment at all. at times even enhances it as i have new perspectives or situations to analyze/interpret for myself.

Exhaust Port
03-20-2003, 03:41 PM
You're right about interfacing with ships as their primary operation. That doesn't require a audio speech capability. Any built in speech capability would only be used when communicating to the operator/owner. With Basic being the universal language for the SW Universe you would think that Astromechs would communicate aurial in that manner.

stillakid
03-22-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Imperial Monarche
I don't agree with Stilla, and as it is I get really irritated and angry when he posts something because 9 times outta 10, he posts something negative...but, isn't that the point of these forums...to spark debates. i mean, if everyone was kind and not a critic, there would be no fun. it's fun to battle back and forth, knowing that nobody will really win. i don't like Stilla's comments and i do agree he tends to switch things around to make it look like people that like the PT are idiots, but there's two sides to a certain type of people- the good guys and the bad guys. nobody would come to the forums if everyoe was all happy and said nothin bad...why do people watch American Idol, we wanna see what Simon will say next because he's the bad cop to the good cop. keep doin your thing Stilla...even though i don't like your comments, whenever i see your name i just gotta see what you got to say.

geez, i must be gettin soft ecause i never thought i would be sticking up for Stillakid.

Thank you for your....um, support? ;)


I believe my intentions are vastly misunderstood and misinterpreted. While they might be construed as "negative," they are indeed designed to explore the saga in broader terms that inspire actual thought as opposed to blind fandom. Those that prefer to "ignore" the "problems" will obviously view any such exploration of the story in this manner as "unnecessary" and/or "negative."

But seriously, just how long can anyone really maintain an interest in a hobby by only skimming the squeeky clean happy-happy joy-joy surface of it? Isn't it more "fun" and educational to dig into an interest, any interest (sports, magic, art, cooking, etc), and attempt to learn more about it from a variety of viewpoints, some of which you may have never thought of on your own?

Clearly, some people have no interest in "enjoying" their hobby in such a complex manner and prefer to turn a deaf ear and blind eye to any such discussion. I find no problem with that. What does disturb me is the implication of profound "negativity" that a few attribute to my contributions to this hobby. As I've said many many times previously, it's because of my love for the idea of the saga that I hold it to such high standards. The relatively minor "errors" in the Original Trilogy as discussed here barely raised any attention for nearly 20 years. In contrast, the Prequels have encouraged widespread debate and, in many cases, outright disappointment. Were I just a single voice lost in a sea of enfatuation, then the accusations leveled against my evaluations could be fairly rebutted. However, and unfortunately, that is not the case. I say "unfortunately" because I, as millions of others, had great expectations for the new chapters in a beloved saga that were not realized. In short, I'd rather be discussing how great the Prequels have been. But it's not my fault that they turned out the way they did. I'm just talking about what's up there on the screen.

:)

stillakid
03-22-2003, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Getting back to the original intent of this thread:

Considering that the primary users of the Astromechs were humans/aliens why were they programed to talk in a language of their own and not a form of basic? Ideally you'd think they would be able to communicate with their operators without the need of a translator, right?


Lately, I get a little chuckle as Luke is sliding into his X-Wing fighter and says, "You okay, R2?" Artoo whistles something and Luke automatically says, "Good!" How does Luke know what Artoo said? The little droid could easily have been saying "Get me the hell outta here" or "I'd rather be back on Tatooine." Who knows?

Exhaust Port
03-22-2003, 09:50 AM
"I've wet my can I'm so scared" :)

stillakid
03-23-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
"I've wet my can I'm so scared" :)

This may just be a great idea for a spinoff thread of it's own..."what the heck is R2 saying?" :D

JediTricks
03-23-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Lately, I get a little chuckle as Luke is sliding into his X-Wing fighter and says, "You okay, R2?" Artoo whistles something and Luke automatically says, "Good!" How does Luke know what Artoo said? The little droid could easily have been saying "Get me the hell outta here" or "I'd rather be back on Tatooine." Who knows? R2's sounds are often based on his moods, even if we can't understand the little droid, we generally know what he's getting at when he starts making noises - he can sound sad, happy, approving, scared, angry, frustrated, brave, and curious all by simply modifying his sounds. (This is mainly due Ben Burtt's fine cinematic work)

Also, in the cockpit of the X-wing - like the Naboo Fighter and Jedi Starfighter and Y-wing - there is a panel that shows the text translations of what the astromechs are saying via the Aurebesh language. In Ep 1, it translates directly into English and you can read where R2 chides little Ani about how he needs to be careful, this isn't podracing and other stuff. So it's possible Luke could have seen that out of the corner of his eye when he got the response.

stillakid
03-23-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
R2's sounds are often based on his moods, even if we can't understand the little droid, we generally know what he's getting at when he starts making noises - he can sound sad, happy, approving, scared, angry, frustrated, brave, and curious all by simply modifying his sounds. (This is mainly due Ben Burtt's fine cinematic work)
Yes, for the most part. But that particular bleep bloop blip was a little more non-descript than usual...in my opinion. ;)


Originally posted by JediTricks
So it's possible Luke could have seen that out of the corner of his eye when he got the response.
Uh, yeah. maybe...:sur:

keith koth
03-26-2003, 01:41 PM
I have always been under the impression that Luke understands what R2 is saying because he has spent so much time with him.

If you had a droid that communicated through a series of whistles and beeps, eventually you would come to understand what your droid was saying...just so long as the language your droid uses is consistent.

Luke did not understand what R2 was saying in A New Hope...but after spending a few years with R2 he became fluent in astromechese as seen in The Empire Strikes Back.

keith koth
03-26-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Oh wait...I got another.

In ANH, right after luke gets the droids, cleans them up, listens to the message, then goes for a quick, short dinner. He says he has to go finish cleaning up the droids...then next thing we know, bamb is sort of dark, but not too dark. And R2 takes off.

My question is, how the hell did the little guy travel so far so fast.
and secondly...why couldn't luke or 3p0 see any sort of track. You could argue it was windy, but look at the tracks they left when they hit the planet and started moving away from the pod.

I wanna know how a little droid, who just trundles along can get so far so fast on sand...yet when they pick him up in the canyon he just sort of poking along.

Let us not forget that R2 has booster rockets. Although we don't see them in ANH, R2 did use them in EII. Therefore, it is completely plausible that R2 utilized these booster rockets to bypass the rough terrain encounterted along the journey to Old Ben Kenobi's domicile.

Deoxyribonucleic
03-26-2003, 02:01 PM
Well, I've been around my cat for 12 years and I still don't understand what he's saying. Unless of course he's meowing loudly right at my feet and then when I look at him he either walks to his food dish or to the backdoor. But that's more understanding actions than meows, of which meows would be easier to understand than binary beeps and whistles.

Besides, when Luke is flying to Dagobah, he understands what R2 is saying only because his beeps and whistles are translated on a display screen in the cockpit.

:)

keith koth
03-26-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
Well, I've been around my cat for 12 years and I still don't understand what he's saying.

Your cat's language was not programmed by humans, but R2's was. Therefore, if the human mind created it, then certainly we can understand it.

I have a dog and I can generally understand what message/mood he is trying to convey to me through his barks, growls, etc.

I would be willing to bet all of the riches in the world that: if enough effort/money was invested in to decoding the vocalizations of animals (in your case it would be cats), that we could certainly develop technology that would allow us to understand exactly what they are saying.

Deoxyribonucleic
03-26-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
if the human mind created it, then certainly we can understand it.


Says WHO??? I totally disagree! And if this is TRUE, why does Luke use a translator to understand R2???????? Just because a human creates it doesn't mean that ALL humans understand it! Humans created PC's and there's millions of humans who don't UNDERSTAND them and even more, can't understand CODE, which is what R2 speaks in!!!

And more, humans created the scientific language to uncode the human genome. Now you tell me how many humans understand that? President Bush senior couldn't even distinguish between Gnome (as in Lawn Gnome) and Genome! HA!

:rolleyes: :)

keith koth
03-26-2003, 02:30 PM
Perhaps simple minded people would have great difficulty decoding R2's language, but it would not be impossible. Luke certainly was not simple minded.

It's not like R2 is going..."10001110101000101101101001010111010101011010101101 01110101" like a computer.

R2's language is vocal, so to speak.

Vocalizations have meaning that can be translated. That is a Fact!

Deoxyribonucleic
03-26-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Perhaps simple minded people would have great difficulty decoding R2's language, but it would not be impossible. Luke certainly was not simple minded.

It's not like R2 is going..."10001110101000101101101001010111010101011010101101 01110101" like a computer.

R2's language is vocal, so to speak.

Vocalizations have meaning that can be translated. That is a Fact!

You really shouldn't call yourself simple minded! :rolleyes:

and you still fail to answer the question...If Luke can understand what R2 is saying then....WHY DOES HE USE A TRANSLATOR?????

:crazed: :crazed:

Oh, and Leia and Han and Lando and Chewbacca and everyone else minus the droids didn't understand R2, so are you saying they are simple minded too???

keith koth
03-26-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
You really shouldn't call yourself simple minded! :rolleyes:

and you still fail to answer the question...If Luke can understand what R2 is saying then....WHY DOES HE USE A TRANSLATOR?????

:crazed: :crazed:

Could you please go back and quote the part where I may have suggested that I am simple minded. :confused:

Luke most likely uses the translator on his X-wing for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Simplicity
2. R2 is not in the cockpit with Luke...perhaps Luke could not hear R2's vocalizations. :eek:

There are several other parts of the Star Wars saga in which R2 speaks to and is understood by Luke (without a translator).

Now, you explain to me how Luke could understand R2 in those scenes where they communicate with eachother without a translator.

R2 is Luke's droid...Luke is probably the only one of the "Rebel Heros" who has spent enough time with R2 to understandn him.

How do they understand Chewbacca's vocalizations? For god's sake, he growls like a.....DOG! :eek:

Deoxyribonucleic
03-26-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Could you please go back and quote the part where I may have suggested that I am simple minded. :confused:

Luke most likely uses the translator on his X-wing for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. Simplicity
2. R2 is not in the cockpit with Luke...perhaps Luke could not hear R2's vocalizations. :eek:

There are several other parts of the Star Wars saga in which R2 speaks to and is understood by Luke (without a translator).

Now, you explain to me how Luke could understand R2 in those scenes where they communicate with eachother without a translator.

OI VAY!!!

PLease tell me where LUKE actually says he understands R2, hey may understand his actions, like when R2 takes the lamp from Yoda and Luke tells him to give it back, but he doesn't sit there and have in depth conversations as you seem to be suggesting! SHEESH!

Also, when they crash on Dagobah, and Luke is wiping mud off of R2, he says he's crazy for coming here, R2 spits out mud which is understandable because it's an ACTION! Like I said in my very first post!

About the simple-minded quote, You tell me, you are the one who wrote it.

:zzz:

End of discussion on my part! I've better things to do than argue over a movie! :kiss:

Beast
03-26-2003, 02:54 PM
I guess noone ever noticed that little screen that Luke is reading when R2-D2 is talking to him. You know, the one in the X-Wing cockpit that translates astromech to basic. The one that we actually see words appear on when R2 beeps, whistles, and farts. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
03-26-2003, 02:56 PM
I never suggested that R2 and Luke have in depth conversations...I merely suggested that Luke understands what R2 is saying.

If you do not understand that, then I believe you to be simple minded, you fool! :rolleyes:

It seems that now you are the one who is ignoring questions...and the ones that you do answer have no logic behind them. :cool:

keith koth
03-26-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I guess noone ever noticed that little screen that Luke is reading when R2-D2 is talking to him. You know, the one in the X-Wing cockpit that translates astromech to basic. The one that we actually see words appear on when R2 beeps, whistles, and farts.

That has already been mentioned...read the posts above. :)

Beast
03-26-2003, 03:30 PM
Well, the fact it was mentioned before didn't stop the arguments. So I figured it hadn't been mentioned, or if it was it was missed. Hell, I missed the one or two mentions of it. Also note that Luke does get a vague understanding of what Artoo says from how Artoo intones his beeps, whistles, chirps, and farts. :)

Luke: "If you're saying coming here was a bad idea, I'm starting to agree with you."

He gets the intention of R2's speech, but doesn't understand it totally. But he's been around him long enough to pick up on certain things from him. Like Deoxy's cat. Deoxy's going to know what the cat wants, from the differnt sounds and inflections the cat makes. Hunger, disgust, anger, etc. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
03-26-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
He gets the intention of R2's speech, but doesn't understand it totally. But he's been around him long enough to pick up on certain things from him. Like Deoxy's cat.

Sure, Luke uses a translator while abord the X-wing, but he had to because R2 was not in the cockpit. R2's vocalizations were lost in the vacume of space, so the only way he and Luke could communicate was through the translator.

The problem with this argument is that we will never know who is right. Maybe Luke does need a translator to understand R2, but then again, maybe he doesn't. No one can prove it one way or another; therefore, the whole arguement is invalid.

My next question (actually, I posed this question above): How does everyone understand Chewbacca? His vocalization is merely a series of growls. If one can interpret growls, then why can they not interpret whistles, beeps, etc.?

stillakid
03-26-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
I guess noone ever noticed that little screen that Luke is reading when R2-D2 is talking to him. You know, the one in the X-Wing cockpit that translates astromech to basic. The one that we actually see words appear on when R2 beeps, whistles, and farts. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Oh, I think that everyone noticed just fine. The original question that I brought up was in reference to the specific scene in which Luke responds to Artoo's beeps and whistles before he crawls into the cockpit. Many of the other examples throughout the saga can be explained as Deoxyribonucleic alluded to, as they are CLEARLY identifiable mood beeps or actions. This specific example from ANH that I inquire about is accompanied by neither a defined action nor a easily recognizable "mood" beep. While Luke crawls into the cockpit, he has neither really spent enough time yet with Artoo to discern that much personality from him nor did he read Artoo's response on the cockpit display screen.

JediTricks
03-26-2003, 05:21 PM
First off, let's drop the name-calling, it's unnecessary.

Secondly, R2's "language" is a very information-dense audio system, it sounds to us like quick beeps and whistles, but to 3PO and other droids it's a massive paragraph of blatherings. There is no way Luke could understand exactly what R2 is saying, his human ears and brain simply aren't capable of it; he clearly understands the general concept of what R2 is getting at, but that doesn't mean he understands the exact words themselves. And I didn't just pull that out of my rumpus room ;) I believe it was in the Essential SW Characters book. Oh, and Chewie's langauge may not be English, but it's still an organic language, R2's is a lighting-fast probably-binary language, you can learn to understand Japanese given enough training, but you're never going to be able to understand your computer's modem. ;)

Thirdly, Stilla, perhaps Luke was listening for a specifically-negative sound and by not hearing one, he assumed things were ok. :D

Fourthly, keith, it's interesting you mention the pet translator concept, in another section someone posted the following: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030325/od_uk_nm/oukoe_tech_dogs_language_2

keith koth
03-26-2003, 05:29 PM
This whole discussion about Luke understanding R2's vocalizations is a "catch 22".

Supposedly, Luke needs a translator device to understand R2, but there are CLEARLY parts of the movie where luke responds to specific "unemotional" vocal sequences from R2 without the aide of a translator.

Now, it seems, that Luke did indeed respond to R2's vocalizations in ANH well before he could have learned their meaning.

Therefore, this must be a genuine error in the writing of the trilogy.

...unless Luke took the time to learn astromechese prior to ANH...after all, he did desparately want to be a pilot.

Hey...R2-D2 has two 2's just like "catch 22"...Hmmm! :eek:

keith koth
03-26-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks


Fourthly, keith, it's interesting you mention the pet translator concept, in another section someone posted the following: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030325/od_uk_nm/oukoe_tech_dogs_language_2

Yes JT, that is interesting...yet at the same time it is funny! :)

Several years ago, as a graduate student of wildlife biology at Texas A&M University, I did my masters thesis on the social vocalizations and interactions of songbirds. Specifically, it focused on mockingbirds, which are well known for mimicing other species of birds as well as other organic/inorganic sounds.

Anyway, it is well known in the biological community that specific vocalizations have certain meanings, just as with any language. Sure, we do not know what the animals are saying specifically, but one can obtain a general understanding of the sounds and differentiate between mating vocalizations vs. feeding vocalization vs. group bonding vocalizations and so on.

I say this because it is the basis for my argument that Luke understands R2's vocalizations. I never implied (or at least I never meant to imply) that luke understood EXACTLY what R2 was saying. I was merely pointing out the fact that Luke can understand R2's vocalizations in a general sense (sort of like a beginner in a foreign language course...one might not understand the totality of what is being said, but enough can be picked out of a sentence that a general understanding of the topic can be established).

I'm sure Luke would need a translator in order to obtain specific information. But at the same time, I think that Luke understands R2 on a much deeper level than say...dna understands and his cat.

Exhaust Port
03-26-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
if the human mind created it, then certainly we can understand it.

I don't understand a bit of any other human language other than English and they are all created by Humans. I've spent many hours watching Univision and for all I know they could be talking about unclogging a sink.

Part of my original problem with R2's bleeps and such is that he should be speaking in Basic. No other audio speech method should be used in that galaxy. If a robot was meant to interact with humans through audio speech then it should be in the universial languange not some computer mumbo-jumbo.

Deoxyribonucleic
03-26-2003, 07:27 PM
Huh? What?

Keith, did you call me names?? Well, thank goodness my virgin eyes didn't see what you called me since I used the "ignore feature" after that kiss I gave you!


Here's another :kiss:


You know you want me! ;)





:D :D :D

QLD
03-26-2003, 07:38 PM
I agree, I don't think it possible for him to understand exactly what he says, but even WE are able to get the general idea of the meaning by the tone of his....errr.....tones.

keith koth
03-27-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Deoxyribonucleic
Here's another :kiss:

Hey dna! get your lips off my... :eek:

Droopy McSnootles
03-27-2003, 03:00 PM
I like both but if it weren't for the OT, we wouldn't have the prequels, so I generally tend to lean towards liking the OT more.

:)

JediTricks
03-27-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Part of my original problem with R2's bleeps and such is that he should be speaking in Basic. No other audio speech method should be used in that galaxy. If a robot was meant to interact with humans through audio speech then it should be in the universial languange not some computer mumbo-jumbo. What makes you think astromechs are designed to interact with humans? Beyond the fact that they can understand what humans are saying, is there any reason to believe that astromechs are supposed to be human-compatible devices?

keith koth
03-27-2003, 06:21 PM
By the nature of the character, I believe that R2 was ment to interact with humans at some level. R2 has his own "personality" which is a distinctive characteristic programed by humans. Why would humans program personality into a droid that was not meant to interact with humans?

Beast
03-27-2003, 07:22 PM
Most astromechs are treated as just basic service droids. Just look at how Uncle Owen talks about them in ANH. We see their primary roles in E1, they are meant for matinence and repair jobs. They also double as hyperspace calculators. Their the Star Wars universe equivelent of the Swiss Army Knife. How C-3PO and R2-D2 are treated by Luke especially, is the exception, not the rule. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
03-27-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Their the Star Wars universe equivelent of the Swiss Army Knife. How C-3PO and R2-D2 are treated by Luke especially, is the exception, not the rule. That's part of what makes Luke so special in the OT, everybody else, even Leia and Obi-Wan, is shown to treat the droids as third-class citizens (beneath Humans and then Aliens) but Luke treats the droids as his equals from the very beginning. Lucas clearly does this on purpose to make a subtle point, look at the "Your droids, we don't serve their kind here" line in the cantina. Droids are slaves & tools and everybody else treats them as such except for Luke, whose simple nobility is proven just by his interaction and compassion for the droids.

Exhaust Port
03-27-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
What makes you think astromechs are designed to interact with humans? Beyond the fact that they can understand what humans are saying, is there any reason to believe that astromechs are supposed to be human-compatible devices?

Because in the 5 movies we have up to this point we have humans interacting with the astromechs.

Vortex
03-27-2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Let us not forget that R2 has booster rockets. Although we don't see them in ANH, R2 did use them in EII. Therefore, it is completely plausible that R2 utilized these booster rockets to bypass the rough terrain encounterted along the journey to Old Ben Kenobi's domicile.

I'll just refer you to any of JJB's links, quots, research about R2 and his boosters....I can't state it as elloquently as he can...but I do remember the line..."Afraid of Droids falling from the sky..." or was it JT...its been debated so many times...

Sometimes the pre-q's don't dictate dogma in the OT...we don't see any proof he still has them in the OT. They could have been removed at any point during maintenance and/or memory erase time. He might have gotten a leg upgrade...if I would have seen them in the OT I would believe he still has them, but he had ample time to use them in the OT, but never did. Who's to say they are still functional. Might have needed a leg upgrade to fit into a x-wing or anyother fighter. He is an old, old, old, style you know. I'm sure he went through upgrades.

Beast
03-28-2003, 12:30 AM
Yeah, it was a discovered design flaw. The rocket boosters would become faulty after 20 years of use or so. And were either disconnected, or replaced with a new feature. Again pointing out the Swiss Army Knife Droid angle. :)

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7983

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
03-28-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Most astromechs are treated as just basic service droids. Just look at how Uncle Owen talks about them in ANH. We see their primary roles in E1, they are meant for matinence and repair jobs. They also double as hyperspace calculators. Their the Star Wars universe equivelent of the Swiss Army Knife. How C-3PO and R2-D2 are treated by Luke especially, is the exception, not the rule. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

While it I do agree that there is ample evidence to suggest that astro-mechs are merely meant to be swiss army knives and that R2's "relationship" with humans is out of the ordinary, the moment in TPM when the humans feel the need to "commend" the droid contradicts the assumed human to droid relationship.

Yet another problem with Episode I. In a blunt maneuver to introduce R2 in a grandiose way (minus the trumpets), GL unnecessarily skewed the droid/human interaction scheme that is present in every other film up to that point.

Beast
03-28-2003, 01:01 AM
None of the other humans commended the droid. It was Sabe, who issued the order that R2-D2 should be commended. And then told the real queen to clean him up. Just because that happens, doesn't mean that all the humans were commending him. Maybe Sabe just feels the same way that Luke does about droids. After all, R2 did just save their lives. Plus she made Padme clean the droid, to teach her humility and respect for droids as well as humans. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

keith koth
03-28-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
I'll just refer you to any of JJB's links, quots, research about R2 and his boosters....I can't state it as elloquently as he can...but I do remember the line..."Afraid of Droids falling from the sky..." or was it JT...its been debated so many times...

Sometimes the pre-q's don't dictate dogma in the OT...we don't see any proof he still has them in the OT. They could have been removed at any point during maintenance and/or memory erase time. He might have gotten a leg upgrade...if I would have seen them in the OT I would believe he still has them, but he had ample time to use them in the OT, but never did. Who's to say they are still functional. Might have needed a leg upgrade to fit into a x-wing or anyother fighter. He is an old, old, old, style you know. I'm sure he went through upgrades.

Okay, then you tell me YOUR theory on how R2 got so far away from the Lars homestead so quickly. I think that my scenario fits best, but if you do not agree, then lets hear it! The only other explaination I have read is that "the movie is flawed".

Vortex
03-28-2003, 11:08 AM
My question is...why wasn't R2 retired from service all those years ago?

He was top of the line in Ep I, and he's still in heavy use in the OT. Unless he's like the buick or caddies of the star wars universe, all those upgrades, replacements would have cost a ton of money...especially after all the action he's seen. Something had to give out. Servos, motors, optics, memory, processor, tools...

Think of R2 like upgrading your computer. That would be like perpetually upgrading your old Apple II from 82 to present day. At some point, with the advancement of technology and market value going down, it would have been easier to dump him or scrap him that retrofit the guy. Heck I wonder if the R2 in ANH has all the original parts and casing as the R2 in Ep I.

He gets blown to bits twice. Once in the death star run he gets pretty messed up, and then on endor he gets hit. Falls into sand, yanked up in a net, takes a fall, eaten by a swamp monster, spit out, takes a tumble... too many overhauls to make it worth your time, money and effort. Poor guy needs to be retired.

QLD
03-28-2003, 11:12 AM
I know in the books, they address R2 being out of date more. Once Luke had to rescue him and C-3PO from a memory wipe. Also, they have upgraded the X-Wings, and I believe that R2 is no longer compatible with them, so for a long time, Luke chose to keep his old X-Wing so he could have R2 with him. But now, I believe that R2 and 3PO are almost always with the Solos.

keith koth
03-28-2003, 11:19 AM
I hate when people drag expanded universe into a "cannon" Star Wars debate, particularly when dealing with the original trilogy. Please try to stick to the facts as GL has presented them to us.

Thank you!

Vortex
03-28-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
Okay, then you tell me YOUR theory on how R2 got so far away from the Lars homestead so quickly. I think that my scenario fits best, but if you do not agree, then lets hear it! The only other explaination I have read is that "the movie is flawed".

Yea that's the thing. I don't have a theory as to how he got out that far so fast...because like the main theme of this thread...its an inconsistancy in the movie. Pure physics don't allow for that to happen.

If you look at how fast he traveled when he was 1st outta the escape pod, the tracks he left there, and how slow he was rolling on a hard surface when the jawas nailed him, and how fast he trundles along when humans are running - there's no physical way possible he could have gotten 13 miles + in that short of time to disapear off the horizon. Even if flying, he couldn't have gotten that far. Look how fast he moved in Ep II. It wasn't like a super booster rocket.

Anyway, On planet earth, standing on flat land, from an average person's ht. (5'-8") you can see roughly 12-13 miles before you loose sight of items below the curve of the earth. If we apply this to Tattooine, luke should have been able to pick a spot off on the horizon, give that tatt. is larger than the earth. Can you walk 13+ miles in a hour or less? How about a little droid who moves slower than a human on the run or walk?

If the boosters are disfunctional, which I belive they are, he had more than one occasion to prove he has them in OT, but doesn't...so I feel they are removed. But anyway its a movie inconsistancy and one of those things that make you go...hey, wait. I belive its one of those items in the movie that wasn't thought through.

I can't give you an answer or theory since there isn't one. Its a flaw in GL thinking or story telling abilities. Unless he hitched a ride with a passing landspeeder, there's no physical way he could have gotten so far so fast.

QLD
03-28-2003, 11:25 AM
Who cares what you hate????

I will always use Expanded Universe to support my theories about the SW universe, because it is a good source to do so. The whole, If it isn't in the movie, it didn't happen argument is tiresome, especially when you are trying to say that R2 had rockets in the OT, when he clearly never showed them. So by your own logic, you are wrong.

keith koth
03-28-2003, 11:47 AM
Umm...last time I checked, Star Wars was GL story, his invention, his creation, his dream, his vision...

What happens in the expanded universe has no bearing on the movies, because not only did GL not write those crumby novels, but he doesn't even follow them consistently with his prequal trilogy. There are contradictions between EU and the "real" Star Wars saga. How can EU be a good source when the "creator" GL did not write them; nor does he follow EU established story lines/plot points?

keith koth
03-28-2003, 11:55 AM
R2 had booster rockets in Episode I, but we never saw them. They were shown in a deleted scene on the DVD...but since it wasn't shown in the movie, I guess he didn't have them.

At least my theory about the booster rockets is plausable as opposed to your theory (or lack of theory). The law of science is that the best theory stands until it is disproven. You have not disproven my theory on this, nor have you presented an alternative theory that would be more acceptable. Go back and think about it for a while. Post an alternative theory when it comes to you.

QLD
03-28-2003, 12:05 PM
I for one am glad G. Lu didn't write the novels, because if they turned out as bad as the prequels have, well, I might actually agree with your opinion. In fact, if G. Lu let Zahn write EIII, then it might actually turn out pretty good.

But the fact is, Lucas has always been very strict on what the content of EU is. Of course there are some conflicts with the prequels, since a large portion of the books were written before Lucas even wrote episode 1. All EU is approved by Lucas or LFL, and that is good enough for me.

Exhaust Port
03-28-2003, 12:22 PM
From what I've seen written on the topic, GL doesn't "approve" any of the novels or controls the content. He's given the writers permission to write a novel in the spirit of SW with the knowledge that nothing they write is "true SW." GL retains the right to ignore anything and everything written in the EU and write his own storyline. Any inconsistancies between the Prequals and the EU are there because he has no clue what was written by the EU writers.

I have to agree with Keith on this one. Using the EU to explain the OT or Prequals is pointless as they were written without any relivance to the EU novels.

Vortex
03-28-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
R2 had booster rockets in Episode I, but we never saw them. They were shown in a deleted scene on the DVD...but since it wasn't shown in the movie, I guess he didn't have them.

At least my theory about the booster rockets is plausable as opposed to your theory (or lack of theory). The law of science is that the best theory stands until it is disproven. You have not disproven my theory on this, nor have you presented an alternative theory that would be more acceptable. Go back and think about it for a while. Post an alternative theory when it comes to you.


:sur: Wow, a little demanding for a new guy arent you. " A little pebble making big waves. ":sur:

"Best theory stands until disproven"...who gave you the final vote on "Best Theory"?

Currently all we have is your own assumption and opinion at this point, as far as some of us here are concerned, you're theory has been disproven and debated before and I side with JJB and others that don't buy into R2 having boosters during OT. That's a long time and I'm sure he was upgraded at many points, so therefor you're theory is null and void and nothing more that blind acceptance and unwillingness to see or accept another possibility. So sorry, you're best theory doesn't apply any longer.

My theory will be...*ahem* a passing speeder or air bus picked him up and dropped him off. A)no tracks in the sand B) Transversed a great distance in a short period of time C) larger energy and fuel supply than a possible astromech booster cell D) No proof in OT that he still has boosters E) We don't know how removed of a location the Lars farmstead is F) C-3po makes a comment about the sand and his servos...and if we apply that to other droids, including astromechs, R2 gears and wheels should have gotten clogged and impaired his speed and operability

And on another note, its a sucky point in the movie and a large flaw. Its just another example of poor tie ins, and "plot holes" in another flick. There are plenty in the OT, and this is just another.

So Mr. Koth, sorry game over, you loose. Please insert another quarter to continue:)

keith koth
03-28-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
"Best theory stands until disproven"...who gave you the final vote on "Best Theory"?

My theory will be...*ahem* a passing speeder or air bus picked him up and dropped him off. A)no tracks in the sand B) Transversed a great distance in a short period of time C) larger energy and fuel supply than a possible astromech booster cell D) No proof in OT that he still has boosters E) We don't know how removed of a location the Lars farmstead is F) C-3po makes a comment about the sand and his servos...and if we apply that to other droids, including astromechs, R2 gears and wheels should have gotten clogged and impaired his speed and operability

And on another note, its a sucky point in the movie and a large flaw. Its just another example of poor tie ins, and "plot holes" in another flick. There are plenty in the OT, and this is just another.

So Mr. Koth, sorry game over, you loose. Please insert another quarter to continue:)

Keith Koth inserts quarter.....

I gave myself final vote on best theory, because until you just posted your theories, none had been proposed.

We have no evidence to suggest that R2 has booster rockets in the original trilogy, but at the same time we do not have any evidence suggesting that R2 does not have booster rockets. With that being said, all we can go by is what was presented to us in the movies; therefore, since R2 had booster rockets in EII, it is completely plausible that he still has them in ANH, as there is no proof otherwise.

I suppose that a speeder could have picked up R2 and dropped him off miles away from the Lars homestead.

So now we have an alternative theory...lets vote and see whose theory is more accepted.

Vortex
03-28-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by keith koth

So now we have an alternative theory...lets vote and see whose theory is more accepted.

Fine by me. Can I lobby for votes? :D

keith koth
03-28-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Fine by me. Can I lobby for votes? :D

Yes, as long as you don't pay for the votes. :D

BTW, you forgot to insert a quarter! ;)

Vortex
03-28-2003, 02:11 PM
Can I bribe them with porn, smokes and booze?

Quarter...don't you know I'm on extened play.

keith koth
03-28-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Can I bribe them with porn, smokes and booze?

Sure, that is what I am doing. :happy:

BTW, I'm not a new guy...I've been around as long as you. Actually, I had a different user name for two years before they changed the forum design and I somehow lost the ability to logon under my old user name: Keith-Adi-Mundi.

I just don't post very often (or at least I haven't in the past), but now I find myself with more free time and the ability to post more often. That does not mean that I have not been regularly reading the forum threads over the course of the past 4 to 5 years.

Vortex
03-28-2003, 03:34 PM
boy your sure making a lot of waves for being around a while...is this some sort of alter ego thing, like the hulk?

keith koth
03-28-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
boy your sure making a lot of waves for being around a while...is this some sort of alter ego thing, like the hulk?

No, I just like being combative...it is entertaining to me. Can you honestly sit back and say that you have not found entertainment in arguing back-and-fourth with me? It's so damn fun! :D

Beast
03-28-2003, 05:35 PM
Well Keith, the Booster Rockets are official cannon, because the story of them appeared on Holonet news. And that was tied directly in with the movies. So R2 no longer has his booster rockets at the time of ANH. As for the books, I'm not a huge fan of all the stories that are set after ROTJ. But anything that centers directly around the prequels or takes place during the timeline of the OT, has a much higher level of cannon that it has to meet. It's been that way since the late 90's. So that it doesn't contradict anything that may occur in the movies. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

El Chuxter
03-28-2003, 05:48 PM
This thread is moving dangerously away from the Classic Trilogy and in danger of ceasing to be an interesting debate and becoming a shouting match. :mad: Everyone breathe deeply and let's move on. :happy:

KK, why does Artoo have to move faster than normal speed to travel such a distance? We know that Luke leaves the droids in the garage, goes and has dinner, does who knows what else, and discovers Artoo is gone right at sunset. He doesn't see Artoo in his macrobinoculars, and several yet unreleased cut scenes and the original novelization (based on an early shooting script) both make it clear that his binocs are practically worthless, so that by itself doesn't mean Artoo's miles away at that point. (If you want to go only by what's presented in the film, look for yourself at the lousy range he gets in the few shots we see through those binocs.)

At this point, Luke decides it's better to stay indoors (I think Owen makes a comment about turning on the force field to keep Tuskens out). When Owen comes into the kitchen the next day, he finds Luke has left early to go into town (though we know he's looking for Artoo, lest there be Hell to pay).

At least eight hours have presumably passed during the night, possibly longer. Also, we can assume it takes at least an hour to eat, and we have no idea what constitutes "early" for Owen and Beru, nor whether Luke went straight from the garage to the kitchen and back to the garage with no dilly-dallying or chores in between. The time Artoo's been absent could be up to twelve hours. That's plenty of time at normal walking speed (which is what we normally see Artoo travelling at) to travel several miles. And since Luke knows "Old Ben" Kenobi, I don't think he's too far off.

keith koth
03-28-2003, 06:09 PM
Well, then that settles it.

I was not the individual that suggested that it was impossible for R2 to have traveled that distance, it was someone else. I was merely suggesting a possible theory to explain how R2 traversed such a distance in the terrain of Tatooine.

If you can establish a timeline that would allow R2 to have moved that distance through "traditional" means, then there is the answer we have been arguing about.

I always felt like R2 had plenty of time to travel that distance, but some people will continue to argue that the movie is flawed (which it is not). Therefore, I offered an alternative solution to the problem just for the sake of ending all of the talk about this element of the movie being flawed.

DarthChuckMc
03-28-2003, 06:24 PM
Maybe Artoo just hid behind a moisture vaporator, and Luke missed him with the binocs. He had the rest of the night to make the trek across the Jundland Wastes, after Luke and 3PO spent all of 20 seconds looking for him.

Just a theory.

keith koth
03-28-2003, 06:32 PM
Hey, any plausible theory is better than outright claiming that the movie is flawed.

Exhaust Port
03-28-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Hey, any plausible theory is better than outright claiming that the movie is flawed.

True, but you can't get fired up when others find flaws. No movie is perfect and SW isn't exempt. There are flaws and this thread is just spending sometime finding them. The more obscure ones are more entertaining to me than the obvious (sound in space).

stillakid
03-29-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
Umm...last time I checked, Star Wars was GL story, his invention, his creation, his dream, his vision...

What happens in the expanded universe has no bearing on the movies, because not only did GL not write those crumby novels, but he doesn't even follow them consistently with his prequal trilogy. There are contradictions between EU and the "real" Star Wars saga. How can EU be a good source when the "creator" GL did not write them; nor does he follow EU established story lines/plot points?

There are contradictions between the Prequels and the Original Trilogy films, which, by the "accepted" definition, are cannon. So if George has the freedom to contradict himself, it only seems fair that EU can be used to rationalize any outstanding questions. :D

QLD
03-29-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
There are contradictions between the Prequels and the Original Trilogy films, which, by the "accepted" definition, are cannon. So if George has the freedom to contradict himself, it only seems fair that EU can be used to rationalize any outstanding questions. :D

Now I agree with that. :D

JON9000
03-29-2003, 12:40 PM
Has anything in the preexisting EU been totally blown out of the water by the new prequels?

stillakid
03-29-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by JON9000
Has anything in the preexisting EU been totally blown out of the water by the new prequels?

I'm not a big follower of "official" written EU, but I do recall Lucas saying early on that the Fett armor was pieced together from remnants of the Mandalorian Army which fought against the Jedi in the Clone Wars. That's entirely gone now, though it doesn't seem to cause any true story problems.

There is also the early suggestion that Owen Lars was a relative of Obi Wan (brother?) which worked as a plausible explanation for why Luke ends up on Tatooine. The change to Lars being Anakin's relative introduces a significant motivational problem for why Obi Wan would take the baby to Lars. This is a planet that Obi has only twiddled his thumbs on for a very short time (TPM) and he knows nothing about Lars at all.

Darth Jax
03-29-2003, 05:21 PM
Greedo doesn't grow up on tatooine in EU, but rather has moved through several planets. not until he apprentices with other hunters does he make his way to tatooine and jabba's employ. If the movies are cannon then all of greedo's previous adventures are null and void (including his previous encounter with han solo and reason to dislike him).

Exhaust Port
04-03-2003, 12:53 PM
Along the same lines as the screwy gravity issues on the Death Star, what about the gravity on the Millenium Falcon? Specifically the orientation of the laser turrets on the ship and how they are shown from the inside.

I stole this link from a thread in another section but it shows it better than I can distribe the situation.

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/mf/turret.htm

That always bothered me that what was happening in ship was so different that what appeared to be happening or could happen from the exterior.

Vortex
04-03-2003, 01:09 PM
Since we're borrowing items here...

The Star Wars insider brought up a good one. I can't recall if this was brought up earlier and if it was...sorry.

But in ROTJ when Luke and Leia swing from Jabba's barge onto the skiff to make their escape before the barge blows. That swing is impossible to do since there's no fulcrum over head or half way between the skiff and the barge.

I forgot about that little trick.


The other question I have is with the final battle at Endor. The rebels come screaming into the death star area, and we see the swarms of interceptors come flooding out from a visualy close death star, yet when luke is in the emperors throne room, the battle looks so far away, but when you see the rebels doing battle the death star isn't that far off. I wonder just how long it would have taken lando, wedge, and tycho just to get to the death star to make that final killing run... if it battle was at the distance we see from the throne room. A week? a good 5 hours to leave the fray to get the the death star? Also, if the battle was raging so far off how can the super star destroyer crash into the death star? Wasn't that to be hiding on the other side of the moon?

Patient Zero
04-03-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
There is also the early suggestion that Owen Lars was a relative of Obi Wan (brother?) which worked as a plausible explanation for why Luke ends up on Tatooine. The change to Lars being Anakin's relative introduces a significant motivational problem for why Obi Wan would take the baby to Lars. This is a planet that Obi has only twiddled his thumbs on for a very short time (TPM) and he knows nothing about Lars at all.

Just check out the SW CCG card for Obi from the original release. It mentions something to the effect of that.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
Just check out the SW CCG card for Obi from the original release. It mentions something to the effect of that.

Can you scan that and post it? I don't have any CCG cards. Sorry. :)

But here's a bit from a screenplay pre-Prequels:


BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your
feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of
lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of
course. But it was a title without real
power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following
in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell
in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of
his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.
Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the
Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force
is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You
must face and destroy Vader!

Patient Zero
04-03-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Can you scan that and post it? I don't have any CCG cards. Sorry. :)


Sorry it was the Owen card and not the Obi One.

JediTricks
04-03-2003, 10:29 PM
Clearly the SW universe has artificial gravity plating, the AG in the center of the Falcon is a different gravity well to give the gunners a better chance at filming the scene... er, I mean "aiming the cannons at things above the ship". ;)


Originally posted by tjovonovich
But in ROTJ when Luke and Leia swing from Jabba's barge onto the skiff to make their escape before the barge blows. That swing is impossible to do since there's no fulcrum over head or half way between the skiff and the barge. The rope was attached to one of the sails - the sails hang over the railing of the ship. They're not that much further out, maybe a meter or so from the railing, but Luke and Leia aren't a dead-weight pendulum, they can throw themselves out and forward a bit to generate momentum to make up the difference. Keep in mind that they're not going THAT far from the barge, they're swinging out a bit, forward a little, and down some. Even if the rope was anchored BEHIND them, if they pushed off enough they could have swung out.

Vortex
04-04-2003, 11:07 AM
Jt, sort of good reasoning, but

A) the barge deck is tapered back. I'd believe your bit if it wasn't or the deck of the barge overhung the rest, but it doesn't. You couldn't get that result we seen on screen with the given shape.

B) The sails, curve down toward the deck and to create a swing like that it it would have to come from the center of the sails, or the rope would have to be really long at the ends if it came from one of the sail's points. Even then you still couldn't get that sort of projection unless you were at the ends, but couldn't be due to the clearance from the deck to the top of the sail.

C) The star wars insider said it was bogus:D

JediTricks
04-04-2003, 06:54 PM
Hey, I haven't said ROTJ was a good movie since about 1987. :D The shot doesn't make sense anyway, since Luke and Leia appear to swing out laterally, but the skiff is like 2.5 meters below the deckline of the barge.

Just chalk it up to Luke being really adept with the Force. :D

Vortex
04-04-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Hey, I haven't said ROTJ was a good movie since about 1987. :D The shot doesn't make sense anyway, since Luke and Leia appear to swing out laterally, but the skiff is like 2.5 meters below the deckline of the barge.

Just chalk it up to Luke being really adept with the Force. :D

Hmmmm does Luke = Spiderman? especially the one from the old cartoon...