PDA

View Full Version : Was 'Nemesis' that bad?



Jayspawn
03-04-2003, 11:16 PM
Lately I've been reading about some die-hard Star Trek fans absolutly hating the 10th movie "Star Trek Nemesis". Saying that it ruined the characters and weak plot etc.

I really liked the movie. Is it possible that some fans are hurt because of the death of Data or the splitting of the crew? I'm sure I'm not alone in really liking the movie.

Thoughts?

JediTricks
03-04-2003, 11:40 PM
I was born a trekkie, but I did not like this movie. Data's death felt hollow and pointless... come to think of it, most of the film felt that way to me. I railed on this film in the Nemesis thread so that's pretty much all I have to say here I guess. I'm glad you liked it, but I can't say the same.

2-1B
03-05-2003, 12:31 AM
I thought it was great that they killed Data, but it felt cheap to have him "back" as the next android . . .

overall, I liked it - but I don't follow Trek TOO closely so I didn't notice most of (well, ANY of :D ) the continuity errors that people took offense to.

I'll definitely see another Trek film as long as it's based on TNG.

:)

12inch Lando
03-05-2003, 01:24 AM
A one time Trek fanatic, I just couldn't bring myself to go see this film and that's a first for me. I might have liked it but who knows.

Eternal Padawan
03-05-2003, 07:21 AM
It was okay. I was moved by Data's death. I don't believe it's the complete crapfest many are making it out to be. Star Trek has oversaturated the market with itself over the last five years and it's interesting-ness has waned for many people. That resulted in a low box office take, which people then translated into a crappy movie. Something that made the film not so good was the lack of any kind of impending danger that made for a poor climax. Sure, the "Earth was in danger!" but they were like hundreds of light years away! Maybe if they were in orbit and the Enterprise was the only chance anyone had, but I didn't get that last chance vibe from the movie.

I wasn't aware of any continuity problems, but I'm not a die-hard Trekkie. Anyone want to fill us in?

vulcantouch
03-05-2003, 11:32 AM
. . .so ruleth (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=207045#post207045) vt :evil:

Dr Zoltar
03-05-2003, 12:21 PM
I just saw Nemesis this past weekend. I could care less that the crew is now split. What I hated was...

** SPOILER **

Oh look, we just so happen to be passing near this solar system and were just so happening to get a reading of another andriod. Let's go get it and put it together. Wow! Can you imagine? Dr. Sung made Data, then we found out he made Lore, and now he just so happened to make B-4. And Data just so happens to be the one who finds them. What a coincidence!

icatch9
03-05-2003, 12:26 PM
I thought this movie was so so. I think the biggest problem with this one and even the last one is that they total forget about the 7 season that made this cast and crew a hit. I mean there is so much to pull from to make better stories, but they invent characters and planets and situations out of no where. Alot of this has to do with mainstreaming. They don't want a movie to revolve around a TV show that aired 8 years ago. Still, that can be solved by a simple "dreamback" or other explination.

There were a lot of problems with this movie and a lot of things that could have been done better.

I feel that they didn't leave it well. If in fact this does turn out to be the final voyage of Picard, then it will suck. I didn't like the way they left it, I didn't like the way everyone was broken up, and I didn't like the fact they the crew didn't have a proper fairwell. But that seems like the Star Trek way.

JediTricks
03-05-2003, 11:04 PM
Nemesis thread:
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16486

My post:
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=217361#post217361

smurfvader
03-06-2003, 05:05 PM
Jayspawn, none of the reaons you gave were why I didn't like the film. I didn't like it because it was poorly executed. I felt the whole film was choppy, and it was. The reason it was bad is because you had 2 peolpe working on the film that were completley opposite of each other. On one hand you have John Logan the script writer and a Trekkie. On the other hand you have Stewart Baird the director and a person who has never seen an episode of Trek. Do you really it's a good idea to do something like that? I know that Mirina Sitis was told to do something by the director that she felt was out of character for Troi. When she would try to do it the way Troi would the director would make her do it again until she did it his way.
I also didn't care for Tom Hardy. Every one seems to think he was terrific as Picards clone, but I thought he was terrible. He doesn't look like Patrick and he didn't even try to "act" like Picard.
Here's my review of the film
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=210357#post210357
There was one thing I was corrected on regarding the film and that was that Shinzon set the trap of putting B-4 on the planet , but wasn't behind the aliens attacking Picard and crew.

Dr. Zoltar about this:


Oh look, we just so happen to be passing near this solar system and were just so happening to get a reading of another andriod. Let's go get it and put it together. Wow! Can you imagine? Dr. Sung made Data, then we found out he made Lore, and now he just so happened to make B-4. And Data just so happens to be the one who finds them. What a coincidence!

Did you miss that Shinzon put B-4 there for Enterprise to find. And even if they didn't find him don't you think it would have wound up in the Enterprises hands anyway? I do feel this was stupid and done only because brent spiner wanted out. It would have been more interesting if B-4 was Lore instead.

JIm

mrmiller
03-07-2003, 07:54 AM
From my experience-

Big time Trekkie TNG fan = Dissapointed

Casual Star Trek Fan = Pretty Good

Sci-Fi fan new to Star Trek = Cool Movie

I fall between the top 2. I'm a pretty big trek fan, but not a die hard TNG fan (I don't think I've ever seen all the eps). I thought it was good. Not the greatest movie in the Trek Series, but still very cool. My only problem is it seems like a revisited Kirk vs. Kahn except the whole "clone" part. Even the final battl was reminicent of ST2:TWOK.

=MATT=

icatch9
03-07-2003, 10:51 AM
Yea, that much is clear. I"m sure they were hopeing for that sort of thing. The only thing that was lacking a very big point was the link between the show and the movie. Kahn was only in an episode (a two parter? I can't remember), but that was enough to give it some sort of substance. Plus Racardo Montabon (sp?) is a powerful actor in the right role (such as Kahn).

This Piclone was never mentioned befor. Picard never had much of a real vengence against the Romulans IMO. So, this was sort of out of no where. They'd of been better off useing an old enemy thought to be dead or something. Anything to give it some sort of history. Nothing here meshed with much that was set forth by the series.

So many errors and what not that it really erck the real fan. The casual fan may not have noticed, but they did notice the week story.

I liked the movie and can't beleave it's getting so insulted. After all, I thought Insurection was a glorified TV show not worthy or movie status.

It stinks that this will more than likely be the final voyage of our beloved crew :(.

Dr Zoltar
03-07-2003, 02:00 PM
Smurfvader,

Yeah, I did get the part where Shinzon planted B-4, but it just seemed too coincidental that he happened to find ANOTHER android made like Data. I whole-heartedly agree that it should have been Lore.

icatch9
03-07-2003, 02:47 PM
What would have been better still is if Lore was the one calling the shots. If it turned out that Lore was the mastermind behind the Piclone. I mean talk about a twisted plot. The evil Data makes a Picard clone to get back at Enterprise for all their thwarting of his schemes. Then he has the balls enough to have himself blown up knowing Data would find him. I mean that's one hell of a movie right there. Then mix in some sort of Piclone Lore fight because Piclone is upset that he was just a patsy and not the man. I mean that says Star Trek right there.

Gez, if only they'd let fans right movies. Am I right?

Dr Zoltar
03-07-2003, 05:40 PM
Dang, icatch9, why didn't they use you the write the 10th movie? That plot line would have made a hell of a lot more sense.

icatch9
03-08-2003, 08:30 AM
Thanks Dr. Zoltar. These things just come to me sometimes :D.
They could still salvage that story line. B4 is still on the Enterprise. Nothing says he can't turn into Lore and try to destroy the Enterprise from the inside. It would be as if this is all part of his major plan. Kind of like a Trojen Horse. It's a bit more far fetched, but still possible.

JediTricks
10-16-2006, 05:37 PM
I picked up Star Trek: Nemesis for $10 at WM a couple months ago and finally watched it again, only the second time I have seen it. Boy, I sure don't like this movie, so sloppy, so non-Star Trek, characters acting all wrong, story is horrible, tons of plot holes, questionable motivations, boring battles, all wrapped up in a wannabe Wrath of Khan. I watched with the pop-up trivia text stuff, that was ok but at times distracting, and I watched some of the disc 2 stuff but it's a little lacking. I probably will watch it again soon with the commentary track (the first one, not the Rick Berman one, he can go choke on his own vomit for all I care) but ultimately I found it pretty disappointing. I was expecting to at least find "home viewing" an easier thing to stomach, like ST:Insurrection which can be watched as a weak, overly-long episode of the TV show rather than a really bad movie, but Nemesis doesn't deliver even that.

Droid
10-16-2006, 07:16 PM
I hated, hated, hated this movie, but I have gone on in detail in other threads as to why.

I will never watch it again.

Watching such great Data moments in the series: the episodes where they go back in time to San Francisco, where he is fighting radiation in the town when he has amnesia, the Lore episodes, where he is helping the boy who wants to be an android, where he is dating, when he supports Picard in the future in All Good Things when everyone thinks Picard is crazy.... So many great moments only to die and be replaced by a retarded prototype.

Mad Slanted Powers
10-16-2006, 08:18 PM
I've only seen the last two Star Trek movies once each, when they were in theaters. I don't even remember what happened. I remember thinking they were okay, but nothing special. Just like a long so-so episode of the TV show.

Star Trek II was my favorite. That worked so well because of several things. It had that "cheating death" thing going on that almost every TOS episode had. It brought back an old enemy, very well played by Ricardo Montalban. It borrowed from classic literature with the Moby Dick theme. I'm not certain, but some of Kahn's dialogue may have been borrowed from Shakespeare as well. The ending was also very moving, from Spock's sacrifice to Kirk's eulogy. That part brings tears to my eyes the more times I watch it.

Star Trek IV was also good, and very funny as well. I really liked Star Trek VI too. Star Trek III was all right, but seemed kind of short. Generations and First Contact were decent as well, but I've only seen them a couple times in their entirety.

JediTricks
10-17-2006, 01:44 PM
Tell us how you really feel, Droid. ;) You're not wrong though, that's for sure, they definitely made an error with that move, and it appears it was Brent "Data" Spiner who did it, since he co-wrote the story. Here's the thing, even if they do pull a "Search For Spock" turn-around and bring Data back to his full self, his death felt cheap and gimmicky and mean and poorly-written, and his rebirth will be taking a life (B4's, not that I'd mind exactly, but there are still issues lingering).

Droid
10-17-2006, 02:26 PM
Found this commentary on an interview with Brent Spiner at http://trekweb.com/articles/2006/09/29/Brent-Spiner-Not-Happy-with-Prequel.shtml

Spiner was very complimentary about producer J.J Abrams but when asked about the chosen direction of the movie he expressed his disagreement with the prequel idea. "I don't think it's a great idea to do a prequel to anything." Spiner told journalist Richard Matthews. "When has that ever been interesting? If Enterprise really said anything it was, ‘Don't go back, go forward.' That's part of the whole beauty of Star Trek; it's always been about ‘Go Boldly Where No One Has Gone Before', not ‘Go Back to Where They Once Were That We Never Saw.' I think that before that film gets made they'll have a completely different idea of what it should be."

Spiner again said that writer John Logan, who penned Star Trek Nemesis, had an idea for a movie that would have likely appealed to fans of all generations.


"One of the ideas that John Logan and I had about what the next film would have been was a Justice League of Star Trek. Something would bring all the great Star Trek villains together, from Khan to Shinzon, and Picard is the only person who could stop them and he actually has to go through time and pluck out the people he needs to help him. He goes back to the moment before Data blows up and takes him back to get Kirk and Spock, and go even further back and get Scott Bakula's character Archer. The problem with that more than anything is cost - how do you pay for that?"

I think his idea is stupid and I think it was done in Dr. Who where they brought all the doctors together. What problem could there be that the only solution would be to go back in time to get other captains? When the Borg attacked Picard didn't say, "My God, I need Kirk and Archer." Also, since when is Shinzon a great Star Trek villain? Hey, if they want to adjust the timeline or do any ripoff to bring Data back I'm all for it. It's nice to hear Spiner say it was a mistake. And I don't want him coming back in B4's body or some dumb thing. Just bring back Data. I also feel that way about Kirk. It was a mistake killing him, so just bring him back.

Does anyone else think Data's makeup never looked right in the movies?

JediTricks
10-17-2006, 03:19 PM
Data's makeup indeed never looked right in the movies! Absolutely, it always looked too gold and too pancakey, and it aged him worse.

You are totally right, that idea would have sucked bad, basically it'd be Generations x10 and it'd be embarassing. Spiner is totally right about the prequelization of Trek though, at least that's something.

I still feel the best movie to come would be a Federation civil war with a lot of the main characters from TNG, Voyager, and DS9 involved.

Tycho
10-17-2006, 09:35 PM
I still liked Nemesis, but I agree it was disappointing next to:

First Contact - best TNG film
Wrath of Khan - perfect TOS film
Search For Spock - I really like this one more than others I think
Voyage Home - fun movie!
The Undiscovered Country - a great film, a dark hour to end TOS on though.

I also liked Insurrection. I think had it been released before First Contact, it would have had a much better reception. They ALL could be like glorified episodes - I'm not sure what that depiction or complaint means, but Insurrection had all of the basic Trek themes going for it.

Nemesis would fare better if it weren't the last TNG film. I agree that B-4 sort of cheapens Data's death.

But what if Star Trek 12 saw a retired Picard, obsessed with bringing an Android back into StarFleet service, studies the works of Noonian Soong, and rebuilds Lore but tries to fix him? A recurring theme would be "redemption" as Picard thinks back to his experience with the Borg and has that for a motivation driving him. Of course things go wrong, and Riker and the USS Titan have to intervene. Geordi helps Picard at ground zero, as does Beverly.

Perhaps when Lore is active and evil, he involves Dr. Arik Soong's experiments near the Klingon Empire, so that could draw in Federation Ambassador Worf and Chancellor Martok?

The whole thing would end with Lore being corrected and redeemed perhaps, but maybe some Augments on the loose for possible future stories (I don't know).

But of course, Brent Spiner would play the principal bad guy for a change.

It could be really interesting.

Phantom-like Menace
10-17-2006, 10:53 PM
Perhaps when Lore is active and evil, he involves Dr. Arik Soong's experiments near the Klingon Empire, so that could draw in Federation Ambassador Worf and Chancellor Martok?

Ah, except that in a salute to throwing away almost the entirety of Worf's development arc in DS9, Worf makes some off-hand comment about how ambassadorial duties didn't agree with him, hence his being available to be a crewman on the Enterprise.

I think I commented in a thread about how to fix Star Trek my main thought about Nemesis, but I'm too lazy to look for the thread. My comment was that they kill Data--my favorite character going back to 1987--and it's so hollow and unmoving that my only response was to turn to my friend and say that the explosion was so big they couldn't find even one single datum. I'm supposed to have some kind of emotional reaction when they kill off my favorite character in a series that was almost my life's breath since I was ten! I'm supposed to be angry or sad. As it was I came out of that movie wondering three things: why I was promised Romulans only to have Romulans make cameos to the more important Remans; what orifice the writer pulled Remans out of; why does Shinzon look less like a clone of Picard and more like an 8x size clone of Mini-Me?

I don't really find myself caring enough about the movie to make a laundry list of the things wrong with it, and I may never find out how long it would take me to sort through the mess to come up with more than one thing I liked. . . . Actually thinking about it, I may never set aside the time to come up with one good thing to say about it. The movie really only needed to accomplish one thing: be better than Insurrection, and it failed. As it stands, I've managed to make myself watch Insurrection twice, but I may never watch Nemesis a second time.

Tycho
10-18-2006, 12:13 AM
Ah, except that in a salute to throwing away almost the entirety of Worf's development arc in DS9, Worf makes some off-hand comment about how ambassadorial duties didn't agree with him, hence his being available to be a crewman on the Enterprise.

Was that also in Nemesis? I didnt focus on Worf that much in that movie.

As DS9 was my favorite Trek, I remember that Worf joined the House of Martok as a brother.

Martok became Chancellor of the Klingon Empire.

Worf was to leave DS9 for Kronos and serve in Martok's administration somehow - presumably as his Ambassador to the Federation.

Worf would see it as a point of honor to serve Martok well, even if he did not like Ambassador duties. Incidentally, that was once K'Ehlehr's role (Alexander's mother). That position could become a new "House of Worf" tradition.

I don't remember why he was on the Enterprise E for Nemesis - if there was any other reason than Riker and Troi's wedding, which of course Worf WOULD attend to - he was very close to both of them.

So if perhaps he didn't like being the Klingon-Federation ambassador, I don't think he would try to change his duties. He just may have commented on his feelings about them.

JON9000
10-18-2006, 09:51 AM
Whoever is in charge of Star Trek ran out of ideas a long time ago.

Star Trek: TMP was the only film that was treated as a prestigious project by Paramount. Ever since then, the films have been given ever tighter budgets and have obviously become a commodity to the studio. Sometimes a strong story can overcome a weak budget, as in Khan, which recycled effects shots from the first movie.

Look at the effects work in TMP (25 years old!) and the effects in NEMESIS and tell me which look better. They've gone from Robert Wise to an editor as a director.

I hope they never make another STAR TREK movie, because they've gotten so wretched. I cringed when Picard went driving around in that dune buggy.

STAR TREK NOW SUCKS!!!!!

Tycho
10-18-2006, 02:11 PM
I thought the Reman Scorpion Fighters were seriously cool. I wished we got to see those in action during the Dominion Wars.

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 02:28 PM
I LOVED LOVED LOVED Nemesis. I have been a Trek fan all my life. It's the best one since Wrath of Khan. You had a methodical villain that was diametric to Picard, incredible starship battles and special effects, really good Data moments. I was saddened at the end but since this is Trek, and Spock came back, I knew it was not absolute so the whole B4 setup didn't bother me. I think this is the reason why they didn't use Lore. Compare it to Insurrection or The Final Frontier then tell me it was that bad. Nemesis looks like Khan compared to both of those trainwrecks. I can't believe Trekkies hate this film. I'm glad I'm not one of those dorks who dress up in costume and give the franchise a bad rap for geeks. If you've watched either one of those Trekkies documentaries it makes me cringe with embarassment to even admit that I like Star Trek after watching those. It's worse than any Star Wars fans could ever be. I'm serious.

JediTricks
10-18-2006, 02:29 PM
Nemesis = That Bad

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 02:37 PM
I guess if you are as much of a critical tighta$$ as Jeditricks is then so be it. That's the problem with guys like you, you can't enjoy anything. Look at how JT was arguing about the physics of water and oil in the futzing with figures thread. Dude, GET A LIFE! It's not rocket science. Neither is Trek. Stop analyzing every inconsistent plothole and just go with it. You're going to end up a cratchedy senile old man.

El Chuxter
10-18-2006, 02:40 PM
Nemesis = That Bad

I believe that deserves Quote of the DayTM status! lol

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 02:43 PM
Trekkies>StarWoids

JediTricks
10-18-2006, 02:50 PM
I guess if you are as much of a critical tighta$$ as Jeditricks is then so be it. That's the problem with guys like you, you can't enjoy anything. Look at how JT was arguing about the physics of water and oil in the futzing with figures thread. Dude, GET A LIFE! It's not rocket science. Neither is Trek. Stop analyzing every inconsistent plothole and just go with it. You're going to end up a cratchedy senile old man.Biteme, party of one, your table is ready.

Nemesis sucks, blaming me won't help it be any less of a disappointing failure of a Trek film. First Contact was great, Insurrection was crap, Nemesis was crap that tried to fly higher and fell harder - huuuuge thud! PLM's post from yesterday points out a lot of what's wrong with this film and yet still leaves room for so much more, that's how bad Nemesis is. Any film that tries to ape Wrath of Khan and comes out like some trashy horror/action mess like this deserves to be savaged.

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 02:58 PM
Truth hurts, doesn't it JT.

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 03:00 PM
First Contact=Awful

JediTricks
10-18-2006, 03:09 PM
First Contact=Awful
And now I have lost all respect for your opinions.

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 03:13 PM
Let's talk about what's wrong with First Contact!

The Borg have been reduced to cartoon charicatures of their former selves. Gone is the ominously frightening appeal from Best of Both Worlds. The Borg Queen? You have gotta be f'n joking! Zefram Cochrane is a boozing whino who rock and rolls over Oobie Doobie?!?!? I was hiding my face with embarrassment over that. And Captain Ahab is seriously gonna take smack from some back talking b!tch?!?!? Aw hayell naw!

What they should have done was tied Star Trek the Motion Picture with the evolution of Decker and V'Ger into the creation of the Borg the same way that everyone thinks Lore should have been B4 in Nemesis. Talk about a film that crashed with a huuuuuuuuuge thud! I hate First Contact almost as much as Generations with Kirk falling off a f'n bridge to his death. What a travesty that was. I've hated every TNG film EXCEPT Nemesis.

decadentdave
10-18-2006, 03:14 PM
And now I have lost all respect for your opinions.

Boo f'n hoo. :cry: No loss there.

LTBasker
10-18-2006, 03:21 PM
I've always had a problem with who they chose for Picard's "nemesis", when I first heard it was supposed to be TNG's Wrath of Khan, I thought it would be the Ferengi that accused Picard of killing his son and tried to get him multiple times. Or, the Cardassian that tortured Picard constantly.

Never was impressed with the clone guy, and the Remans were very poorly handled. Though I agree with Tycho, the scorpion fighters would've been awesome to see in battle, instead we got stuck with the poorly thought out Argo scenes.

The only thing I found interesting in the whole movie was Worf getting drunk and I didn't even think of it until rewatching DS9's finale season on Spike.

I always wondered how Worf would get drunk so easily at a small party like that, surely from all those bloodwine keggers he would be able to handle himself. Then I realized it kind of made sense in that he probably did his best to get drunk because it reminded him of Jadzia.

If they had actually used that it would've been interesting character development which is sorely missing from Nemesis.

Tycho
10-18-2006, 03:27 PM
I'm halfway with Dave on this one. I'll join him at his table.

First though, I loved First Contact. I agree that his suggestion of a tie-in to VGER and TPM would have been a great idea. Perhaps the Borg Queen was Lt. Ilia reborn? That would have been an awesome idea in the continuity of things. They'd have to allow for some time-travel for the Borg into their own past however - as The Doomsday Machine was supposedly engineered to destroy the Borg - but that's EU and retrospect.

2nd, Dave and I agree with the Lore angle with B-4.

I also think that if Nemesis had been the huge hit at the box office, everyone here would be raving about it. The box office has NOTHING to do with whether you like this movie or not.

2-1B
10-18-2006, 09:09 PM
Say what you will about Nemesis...but I thought they were rocking the sh** in First Contact and Insurrection, in fact I have enjoyed every TNG Trek movie.

Phantom-like Menace
10-19-2006, 07:43 AM
I guess if you are as much of a critical tighta$$ as Jeditricks is then so be it. That's the problem with guys like you, you can't enjoy anything. Look at how JT was arguing about the physics of water and oil in the futzing with figures thread. Dude, GET A LIFE! It's not rocket science. Neither is Trek. Stop analyzing every inconsistent plothole and just go with it. You're going to end up a cratchedy senile old man.

Come now, there are no bad people in this thread, only a bad movie.:D In all seriousness, though, going overboard in criticism of others much?


What they should have done was tied Star Trek the Motion Picture with the evolution of Decker and V'Ger into the creation of the Borg the same way that everyone thinks Lore should have been B4 in Nemesis. Talk about a film that crashed with a huuuuuuuuuge thud! I hate First Contact almost as much as Generations with Kirk falling off a f'n bridge to his death. What a travesty that was. I've hated every TNG film EXCEPT Nemesis.

Just out of curiousity, have you read and did you like The Return and the other return of Kirk books written by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens and Shatner? Those books get all into that V'Ger/Borg stuff.

It seems evident you're more of a classic Trek fan than a fan of the modern series. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but every post you make seems to either laud the original crew or to suggest a way to tie them into the modern series some how.

As far as First Contact, you can say you don't like it, but you have to admit that it was a huge hit, not only with Trek fans but with non-Trek fans, and I don't mean "made a lot of money," I mean was well received. Also, if you want to explain why Nemesis is so good, you would be better served talking more about its positives than First Contact's negatives, though your posts would probably be shorter.


I also think that if Nemesis had been the huge hit at the box office, everyone here would be raving about it. The box office has NOTHING to do with whether you like this movie or not.

The first problem with that statement is that Nemesis would have done better at the box office if more people had any reason to rave about it. The second problem is that, at least in my case, my favorite Trek ever was DS9, which never got the ratings nor raving that TNG got. When DS9 was coming to a close, most people thought of Star Trek as being only Voyager. So, I'm hardly jumping on a ratings bandwagon in either case.

Tycho
10-19-2006, 09:38 AM
I'm a huge DS9 fan myself - the best Trek of them all! (Though James T. Kirk was "my captain.")

Droid
10-19-2006, 10:02 AM
I think I posted this somewhere else, but I thought three of the four TNG movies had major problems, such that Insurrection is actually my favorite, though it also had issues.

Generations - should have just left out the original crew rather than treating them poorly. Kirk was tossed aside. His death was cheap and unnecessary. I find it hard to believe the Enterprise B recovered Borg refugees given that no one in Starfleet knew of the Borg before Q introduced them. The death of Picard's family was mean spirited and pointless. I felt like the destruction of the Enterprise D was more for a neat special effects shot than to serve the story in some way. I hated the emotion chip business with Data. Data with emotions ruins the concept of the character - striving for humanity without emotion. It was played for laughs and Data's makeup was off.

First Contact - I hate how stopping one Borg cube was impossible in Best of Both Worlds and only worked because Picard put them to sleep, but yet the cube was so easily destroyed in the movie. I do not accept that Picard knew where to hit them. Their technology still surpassed Starfleet and part of the reason they are so unstoppable is their redundacy. I also didn't hear them say Hue had changed that group of Borg so the change of the Borg from Best of Both Worlds sucked. The Queen destroyed the neatest thing about the Borg, their collectiveness. And they bulked the Borg up to much. Data's makeup was off. It couldn't decide if it wanted to be a time travel movie or a Borg movie and didn't do either well. I could have cared less about the plot to give Cochran his confidence. They just shoved Worf in there. (I know, I know, his DS9 ship was damaged.)

Insurrection - Data's makeup was off and they basically just set aside the emotion chip (I think acknowledging the mistake). It played like a long episode, but a good episode nonetheless. I thought Picard's slowing time at the end was pretty dumb. They didn't even explain why Worf was there and not on DS9.

Nemesis - So you make a movie about the Romulans and don't use Tasha's child or what Spock was doing on Romulus? They do the whole B-4 thing without one mention of Lore or what we actually already knew about Soong's earlier efforts? They killed Data for no reason at all. His death was cheapened by leaving behind the retarded prototype. Once again they destroy the Enterprise for no good reason (it was destroyed, right?). They show Wesley Crusher with no reference to his having left Starfleet academy or having gone off to explore new dimensions. This movie more than all others acted as though there had been no show before it. Picard driving the dune buggy could not have felt less like Star Trek to me. An out of place set piece. They tossed aside Worf's DS9 development and just had him on board. Oh ya, and Data's makeup was off.

El Chuxter
10-19-2006, 10:05 AM
I can't say I've ever been a huge fan, though I enjoyed the first two live-action series. I really enjoyed First Contact. I found it to be, by far, the most accessible of the Trek films I've seen.

JON9000
10-19-2006, 11:30 AM
There is a serious problem when your FILM incarnations are INFERIOR to your TELEVISION series. None of the TNG films approached the fun of the best episodes. Even the best of them, FIRST CONTACT, made me want to cringe in a lot of places (Troi getting soused).

The problem is that TNG never really was much for action. It was always about issues and interesting moral questions (is Data property?). Watch almost any episode... the main plot is always supplemented by some ship emergency which invariably gets solves "by creating a subspace warp field". It used to bother me that the writers would just bs their way out of things, but then I realized I only cared about Commander Barclay on the holodeck anyway.

In the films you need to have these big action pieces, because a preachy little one hour episode is okay, but 2 hours is laying it on pretty thick. How many movies of starship to starship combat can you have, though, before it all becomes a big bore.

NEMESIS is a copy of a copy of a copy, and it stinks to high heaven. I really wanted to like it. Call me any names you want, by tomorrow I'll have forgotten, but NEMESIS will still suck.

El Chuxter
10-19-2006, 11:34 AM
I have to ask, since the hatred of this movie seems so passionate:

Which is a better film, Star Trek: Nemesis or Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace?

decadentdave
10-19-2006, 11:43 AM
Like Tycho said, box office gross has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you like it. I don't care if it made $5 and I was the only person on earth that went to see it. I loved it. I am a classic fan. I also like TNG, but none of the TNG movies were as good as any of the best TV episodes. First Contact was a comic book joke compared to Best of Both World's or even the first Borg episode. All Good Things would have made a better debut for the TNG cast on the big screen than Generations. The two-part episode where Picard is being interrogated by the Cardassians was infinitely better than Insuckrection. The problem is that Rick Berman and Brannon Braga drove that franchise into the ground and I lost interest in Trek somewhere after Voyageless came out and I never looked back.

decadentdave
10-19-2006, 11:48 AM
I don't mind B4, but Phantom Menace is almost intolerable to watch because of Jar Jar Binks. I love Star Wars a thousand times more than Trek and even I can't stand that film.

Tycho
10-19-2006, 12:10 PM
The reason JarJar was left alive at the end of the prequels, is because there's going to be a Star Trek / Star Wars crossover movie that features him and B4 coming to theaters near you.

I have a sample of some of the script that was leaked to me by Bothan Spies:


JarJar: B4! Meesa busting wip happiness to sees yousa!

B4: Why does the frogman have a long tongue?

JarJar: Meesa don't knowsa.

Howsa face so yella?

B4: I do not know. Why are your ears so big?

JarJar: Meesa don't knowsa.
Any help here would be hot.

B4: Why?

JarJar: Meesa don't knowsa.
Yousa bombad!

B4: My name is Bombad?

This dialogue will go on for approximately 2 hours in a similar vein. I'm sure it will be the masterpiece of both franchises that Lucas, Bragga, and Berman dreamed of. Rick McCallum will make a cameo appearance halfway through the film to mop up JarJar's drool from the floor.

JON9000
10-19-2006, 01:21 PM
Which is a better film, Star Trek: Nemesis or Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace?

I'll probably never watch NEMESIS again, and I only saw it once. At some point, I'll probably watch TPM again, god help me. They are both bad, but...

This is difficult to put into words...

While TPM was a train-wreck in a lot of ways, it was a spectacular screw-up. TPM wasn't the screw up of a hack. You have to have some real talent and care about the material to screw up in such a way. If I could drop the dialogue out completely, it might be cool to watch, with its gorgeous set pieces, costumes, tech, and soundtrack. There are some things to admire in TPM.

Droid
10-19-2006, 03:38 PM
Episode I didn't ruin anything about the original trilogy for me, it just wasn't a very good movie compared to the original trilogy. Can't say that about Star Trek. Now every time I see All Good Things and the future Data could have had I just am sick that they killed Data. Same with so many TNG episodes. I watch them and just think how terribly things ended.

I'm telling you they put me in charge of the Trek franchise in the next movie I have Q visiting Picard, meet B-4, remember when Data helped him as a human, say he can't tolerate B-4, snap his fingers and Data is back.

Q could bring Kirk back too, like when he was having the trial to decide if a Q could commit suicide on Voyager and kept bringing people from the past. Snap, Kirk's alive again.

Tycho, your Jar Jar/B-4 exchange cracked me up.

I have to agree that the TNG movies never held a candle to the TV show.

JediTricks
10-19-2006, 04:18 PM
I've always had a problem with who they chose for Picard's "nemesis", when I first heard it was supposed to be TNG's Wrath of Khan, I thought it would be the Ferengi that accused Picard of killing his son and tried to get him multiple times. Or, the Cardassian that tortured Picard constantly.Both interesting ideas, I think the Ferengi - Daimon Bok - would have worked better since we got 2 episodes where he sought vengence on Picard, but the Ferengi are notoriously unthreatening villains so it would have been a hard sell for a movie. Something that worked so well with Wrath of Khan is that we've seen the history between the characters and we know why Khan feels wronged by Kirk, with Picard he hasn't slighted many characters in his travels so it's tougher to find a nemesis that is his equal (the Borg were, but we got that movie).


Never was impressed with the clone guy, and the Remans were very poorly handled.Agreed.



First though, I loved First Contact. I agree that his suggestion of a tie-in to VGER and TPM would have been a great idea. Perhaps the Borg Queen was Lt. Ilia reborn? That would have been an awesome idea in the continuity of things. They'd have to allow for some time-travel for the Borg into their own past however - as The Doomsday Machine was supposedly engineered to destroy the Borg - but that's EU and retrospect.Shatner's book "The Return" did something with that (not the Borg Queen part, the V'ger part), it was written to come after Generations but before First Contact.


I also think that if Nemesis had been the huge hit at the box office, everyone here would be raving about it. The box office has NOTHING to do with whether you like this movie or not.I highly doubt it, nobody's mentioned that it made a paltry $40 mil on a $70 mil budget. Generations cost $35 mil and made $75 mil yet is not well-liked, Insurrection cost $58 mil and made $70 mil and is not well-liked, First Contact cost $45 mil and made $92 mil and is well-liked - I don't think there's any correlation in what you're saying.. except maybe if the movie was better it would have made more money.


I have to ask, since the hatred of this movie seems so passionate:

Which is a better film, Star Trek: Nemesis or Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace?To me, TPM is the better film, some of the action is good and it has a faint hint of the Star Wars magic. Nemesis' action did nothing for me (it felt the same as Insurrection's in many ways) and had none of the Star Trek magic - it could have had a smaller budget, different character names, and it would have been some Sci-Fi Channel saturday night movie: psychic nosferatu in space led by an angry clone bent on destroying the Earth.

2-1B
10-19-2006, 06:10 PM
personally I prefer
Star Trek Episode I The Phantom Nemesis...but I can see how others would feel the opposite.

Tycho
10-19-2006, 07:27 PM
personally I prefer
Star Trek Episode I The Phantom Nemesis...but I can see how others would feel the opposite.


You mean, preferring Star Wars Episode 10: The Nemesis Strikes Back?

2-1B
10-19-2006, 08:09 PM
I may disagree with your opinion, Tycho, but I can understand that you like that one better. :)

Mad Slanted Powers
10-28-2006, 10:02 PM
I thought Phantom Menace was great. The TNG Star Trek movies I've only seen a couple times each at most. I don't even remember much of anything about Insurrection and Nemesis. As I said before, they were okay, but didn't really stand out. They were like average TV episodes. Star Trek II is the way it should be done. That felt epic, a classic duel between two old foes. I liked the effects and the music. Ricardo Montalban portrayed Kahn brilliantly as an obsessed Captain Ahab type of character.

I guess that at least if I watch the TNG movies again, there will be some element of surprise because I don't remember what happened.

2-1B
10-29-2006, 09:57 AM
Me too MSP, I haven't watched any of the Trek movies in forever (well, except part of 2 on HBO a few months back but I'm not really into those) so I should really get going on a TNG marathon...knock out all TV episodes and then the movies.

Where will I find the time, though ? :(

Tycho
10-29-2006, 10:28 AM
Where will I find the time, though ? :(

Caesar, you could get a life-threatening illness so you feel like staying home in bed much of the time, have most of your closest friends move out of town, end your relationship with your girlfriend, add an inheritance so that you have no family but don't really need to work, and you'll have plenty of time to watch every episode of EVERY Star Trek show and movie!

Of course, there will be this nagging hope that should you have a successful surgery, you'll have to go back to living just as you did before when everything was normal. But that's the worse-case scenerio. You could die and make someone else sort out your Star Wars figures instead. :tired:

Jargo
10-29-2006, 11:51 AM
I'd like to have the stars of the TV shows stopped from directing or writing or producing. it just makes it all very self indulgent and actors should never be allowed behind the camera. Personally I think it's time to leave TNG alone. move on and do something with DS9 or Voyager. Jonathan frakes is too fat to get into the uniform anyway.

Or dare i say it, leave starfleet alone and take a look at the other races/species like the Cardassians or Klingons. Make them the centre of the plot and write the movie from their point of view. ST has always seemed a little one sided to me. All these wars and battles and we only ever really see the federation side. starfleet protocols etc. how about a different perspective for once.

I detest Data. always have done. If i could change one thing about TNG it would be doing away with Data. I hate how he looks. I hate how he's played and i hate how he's used for every tiny contrivance of plot and easy fix it ending to a situation. The entire run of TNG would have been far more enjoyable without Data. I hate Brent Spiners voice as well. he makes me cringe so much. Even more than Neelix does.

JON9000
11-04-2006, 11:15 AM
I detest Data. always have done. If i could change one thing about TNG it would be doing away with Data. I hate how he looks. I hate how he's played and i hate how he's used for every tiny contrivance of plot and easy fix it ending to a situation. The entire run of TNG would have been far more enjoyable without Data. I hate Brent Spiners voice as well. he makes me cringe so much. Even more than Neelix does.

Then you can't like TNG too much, because half the plots revolve around Data and what it means to be human.

I liked all those episodes about Klingon politics

JEDIpartner
02-27-2007, 05:19 PM
Well, I'll be... :)

BountyHunterScum
02-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Star Trek 10 the Wrath of Shinzon. It was described as TWOK for the TNG crew.

Tycho
02-27-2007, 11:51 PM
Data bothered me a bit too, because he was so effeminate and sort of nerdy. Brent did a good job with the character because he started to grow up as the series went on. One of his most awesome early moments was when that trader tried to collect him and display him on his ship, and in the end Data seemed to conclude that he had to kill him but the transporter snatched him away just as he started to fire.

BountyHunterScum
02-28-2007, 06:31 AM
Data could have survived. Toss the phaser or overload it.

Droid
02-28-2007, 09:44 AM
I always thought that it was odd that in Wrath of Khan that no one had the time to throw on a radiation suit and do the same thing Spock did. If someone in engineering had started putting on a radiation suit they could have gotten the job done in the same time it took Spock to get down there from the bridge.

However, the Wrath of Khan is a masterpiece and Nemesis is the worst thing ever in Star Trek.

JediTricks
02-28-2007, 03:43 PM
I always thought that it was odd that in Wrath of Khan that no one had the time to throw on a radiation suit and do the same thing Spock did. If someone in engineering had started putting on a radiation suit they could have gotten the job done in the same time it took Spock to get down there from the bridge.Scotty is wearing a radiation suit in the scene and he was overcome, unconscious on the floor.

Droid
02-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Yes, but he wasn't wearing a helmet or hood! It seems like wearing a helmet/hood would be a big part of an effective radiation suit.

When Scotty was talking to Kirk and starting to pass out he wasn't wearing a helmet or hood.

And Scotty sure got over it fast once Spock went into the chamber, didn't he?

JediTricks
02-28-2007, 05:51 PM
We know that the radiation suits have the helmets, we saw them earlier in the film, I think it's safe to assume that Scotty or maybe even McCoy took the helmet off after he came out of the room.

Droid
02-28-2007, 06:48 PM
You'd think Spock would have at least put the helmet on.

Also, all that technology and they can't make a radiation suit that keeps out radiation. Darn it all.

JediTricks
03-01-2007, 04:47 PM
You'd think Spock would have at least put the helmet on.

Also, all that technology and they can't make a radiation suit that keeps out radiation. Darn it all.
It wasn't a normal radiation situation, it was well beyond - the speed at which Spock degrades is fast enough to tell us that.

JON9000
03-01-2007, 06:45 PM
and spock didn't have time to suit up anyway... he got the main engines working in just the knick of time. He would not have had time to suit up.

"Wrath of Khan" is one of my all-time favorites.

Droid
03-01-2007, 08:38 PM
Wrath of Khan is easily one of my 20 favorite movies. It is wonderful. That doesn't mean I can't give the film some good natured ribbing about if there wasn't some other way to save the ship without Spock dying that way.

Jayspawn
03-01-2007, 08:51 PM
I watched Nemesis again this morning. I still dont think its a bad film.

My favorite part is still when the Enterprise smashes into the Scimitar. Love that part!

Tycho
03-01-2007, 09:27 PM
I like Nemesis, too. I like the firefights in the Scimitar's corridors and the shooting back on the Enterprise.

I just like shooting.

JediTricks
03-03-2007, 02:14 PM
I wish I could have let JP's link about why Nem sucked this stay up, really good funny stuff that hit right on the head, but the rules prevent it due to the swearing there. I'll at least repost the part about the crashing into the Scimitar part:

Umm, Shinzon? We took out their weapons and stopped in front of them for dramatic effect just as you ordered, but it looks like they're accelerating to ram us. Luckily, their engines are so trashed that it will take them almost half a minute to hit us. Should we go to full reverse?

Uhhh, Shinzon? Hello?

What was that? Oh yes, turn left! I mean, HARD TO PORT! Even though we're not moving with our main engines, so we'll just sort of wallow around like a beached whale ...

Whoa, that didn't work too well. Sorry, guys! And watch out for falling debris!

SHINZON: Well, that was pretty ugly. Now the front of our ship is all ****ed up from the Enterprise ramming it.
CREW: You noticed? Now their saucer is wedged into our ship!
SHINZON: Wait, I have an idea. Let's try full reverse.
CREW: Oh, I see. NOW you go full reverse. ****ing idiot.

Droid
04-24-2007, 04:39 PM
A pretty good essay on the travesty of Data's death can be found at this site: **link deleted**

There is some language in there so I hope that I am not breaking any rules.

Phantom-like Menace
04-24-2007, 11:34 PM
That essay fairly well summed up my feelings (or lack thereof) on Data's death.

But when did Picard or anyone say, "The Enterprise-E was designed to be able to fight Borg, not explore the galaxy"? The only source I recall (and I've barely watched Insurrection and Nemesis) to say the Enterprise-E was built with any thought of the Borg was the Decipher card game.

JediTricks
04-25-2007, 04:16 PM
I had to pull the link, the swearing issue. :( Here's the article "clean":

Eric: Those Cinematic Moments, and how Star Trek's lost the ability to do them.

As a note of warning, this post contains spoilers for Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, The Empire Strikes Back, Star Trek: Generations and Star Trek: Nemesis. I probably don't need that spoiler warning -- the statute of limitations has long since expired on four of these movies, and even the fifth is now three years old. However, while I sincerely doubt there are any surprises left on the first three movies for anyone who'd be coming to Websnark in the first place, only twenty-seven people saw Star Trek: Nemesis in the continental United States, and it might well be on someone's "I should really see that before I die" list, so, you know. There it is.
Oh, and I spoil some of Star Trek: The Next Generation, too. Just to say.
Oh, and the last episode of Babylon 5.
In Wednesday's post on Serenity spoilers, yesterday, she made mention of the fact that for some people the movie had events or moments on a level with Star Trek II or The Empire Strikes Back. She wasn't referring to those movies as a whole, of course. She was referring to the "holy ****" gut punch moment of the movie. "Luke, I am your father!" "I have been, and always shall be your friend." Shocks that reverberate through you. (I don't know what the nature of such shocks might or might not be in Serenity, mind. This isn't about that.)
I found it interesting to think about, though. Frankly, The Empire Strikes Back, while my favorite of the Star Wars films, failed to have that intense a shock for me. I remember sitting in the movie theater back in 1980, twelve years old and full of wonder. I remember digging on Yoda and Dagobah, and I remember being impressed with Cloud City and thinking that Leia should be with Luke, not that smuggler. (Hey, it was years before they played the incest card, and besides, I was twelve.) I remember thinking that hey, you mess around with another man's girl, you get frozen in carbonite.
Regardless, I was completely hooked.
And then Vader shouted "Luke! I am your father!"
And I thought "oh, now that's just stupid. What is this? The Young and the Restless?"
Sorry. I was an opinionated kid. Still, given that (and given that Leia was Luke's sister), it really didn't surprise me that teddy bears could soundly defeat the Empire while our heroes stood around, got shot, and failed to do anything of significance to the main battle while fighting Vader on the Death Star. I mean, sure, why not?
Star Trek II, on the other hand? Devastated me. There was an intensity to that death scene that became literally a part of cinematic history. The entirety of that movie built to that one, shocking moment. In a movie that on one level was about growing old, growing up, and letting go of the past (seriously -- it was Khan's inability to let go that led to his ultimate destruction and the destruction of all his followers, even though -- as Joachim said -- he had already won, and had a ship, and could do whatever he wanted. At the same time, the death of Spock gave Kirk a new chance at life -- and a chance to feel renewed and young, once more, even as David let go of his anger and pain at Kirk, and so on and so forth -- hell, even the Genesis Device itself was a symbol of letting go of the old and creating new life!), this was the ultimate moment of ending. Spock wasn't just dying -- he was letting Kirk know he had to move on. I still tear up when I see it, even though I've seen all the sequels. Even the crappy ones.
As a side note, I felt similarly when Enterprise burned up over Genesis in Star Trek III. We had tremendous emotional investment in that ship.
So. You'd like me to get somewhere near the point, right?
Well, I was one of the twenty seven people who saw Star Trek: Nemesis. And if you haven't seen it, let me clue you in. (See, I told you there was a spoiler warning.) Data dies. Horribly. He leaps across the gulf between the Enterprise and the bad guy ship, crawls inside, finds the captive Picard, slaps a plot sensitive macguffin emergency transporter on him, sends him back to the Enterprise, and then dies as the ship explodes.
Now, Data was, without a doubt, the Spock of Star Trek: The Next Generation. The most popular character after Picard. The character with the most depth added to him over time. The character the writers lavished all the experience points on during the series. Seriously -- every third episode was Data finding a new friend or Data learning how to dream or Data having to fight for civil rights again (my favorite was the attempt to classify Data as Starfleet property, so he could be disassembled -- despite the fact that Starfleet never built him in the first place, and that if he was anyone's property it would be the estate of Noonian Soong), or the emotion arc. Dear Christ the emotion arc. Contrast that with poor Geordi, who was played by an actor who'd won awards long before this (and who was considered to be slumming by taking the job in the first place). I think there were... what, three Geordi centered episodes in the series? Four, maybe? Reg Barclay got more episodes devoted to him.
Every one of the Next Generation movies had significant Data subplots (Insurrection the least such, mind, but it was still there). Jonathan Frakes was top billed after Patrick Stewart and whatever major guest stars were in a given movie in each of the films (a relic of his Next Generation contract) but Brent Spiner was clearly the most significant returning character in each of them. Gates McFadden, on the other hand, might as well have just sent a photograph in, for all they gave her to do. Clearly, the thought was the fans would have a maximum sense of investment in Data, and his death would be Spock's death for a new generation.
(Also, similarly to Leonard Nimoy at the time, Brent Spiner wasn't all that interested in continuing to play his electronic counterpart, and was having trouble 'not aging' as time went on. So there were pragmatic reasons to do such a thing.)
And so, Data died.
And no one cared.
Hell, it seemed like the Enterprise crew barely cared. There was a wake, which featured (surprisingly enough) some fine acting by Jonathan Frakes, but the scene seemed perfunctory -- of less significance than Riker and Troi leaving the ship. And of course, there was a scene before where Data's memories and brain patterns were put in the prototype B-4 in an effort to "force him to evolve," despite the fact that this would be like taking eighty gigs of a Windows XP install and loading it onto an IBM XT in hopes of forcing the 8088 to develop the ability to handle it. It was such an obvious and clear attempt on the part of the producers to have an out for Data's return that no one who actually saw the movie thought for a second Data was really gone.
This wasn't the first time such a thing had happened. When the Enterprise burned in Star Trek III, there was a powerful sense of history and endings that went with it. This was a ship that we loved -- a ship that Kirk loved. A mythology had built around it that was tremendous. (And the producers learned pretty quickly that it wasn't easy to replace.) When the Enterprise-D was destroyed in Star Trek: Generations, it was at best an exciting set piece and crash sequence, but even the characters didn't much give a damn. (Riker, once again, seemed to be the only one who even had wistfulness for the ship's being destroyed. Maybe Riker is just a big softy at heart.)
So, setting aside the fact that Rick Berman has no actual poetry in his soul, why is it that the most powerful and evocative moments in Star Trek, when replicated by the Next Generation crew, fail to inspire even slight interest?
Well, for one, there's the sheer banality of how they went about it. As was said, when Spock died in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, it supported the underlying themes of the movie as a whole. Things die. New things are born. Those who let go of the past can move on. Those who can't stagnate and die. Joachim's sacrifice led to Khan's death. Spock's sacrifice lead to Kirk's life. And the Enterprise died -- a painful, horrible sacrifice -- to turn death into (in the words of Leonard McCoy) a fighting chance to live, harkening back to the central themes of the previous movie. These events and sacrifices had weight, because the movies gave them weight, and built successfully off the series. It wasn't enough that Spock was a beloved character -- his death still needed meaning, and still had to have pain.
Next Generation pulled this off once, weirdly enough. When Tasha Yar died in the epitome of the meaningless death scene, there was a far more evocative wake. And her death caused ripples through the rest of the series. Data kept his holocrystal of her, and their shared intimacy continued to matter. We met Yar's sister, and that sister's failings contrasted with Tasha to the point that it hurt even more that Tasha was gone. With "Yesterday's Enterprise," Yar was returned in an alternate timeline, and in learning her death was meaningless specifically travelled on a suicide mission to the past in search of that meaning. And that in turn meant she was alive to give birth to Sela.
In Generations, the Enterprise-D was destroyed for no good reason. Mostly, it was so they could design a really *****ing Enterprise-E, one without all those stupid kids and families on board and have it be entirely designed to be a kickass warship without exploration (seriously -- they said as much, in the voice of Picard. The Enterprise-E was designed to be able to fight Borg, not explore the galaxy). That palpable sense of extraneousness -- that lack of dramatic purpose in the Enterprise's destruction -- reinforced to the fans watching that they weren't really supposed to care.
Remember, we're discussing Star Trek fans -- the ur-fan. The archetype for obsessive fans who care. Teaching them not to care was not a survival strategy.
Then, on top of that, we had the last series that truly invested in its characters and set that way -- Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -- end. Star Trek: Voyager began, and managed to inspire... well, no real passion from anyone. The continuing sense that maybe we just shouldn't care continued, day after day, show after show, movie after movie.
Of course, those fans do continue to care -- just not about Star Trek. They're the ones who cried their eyes out when Babylon 5 was destroyed in "Sleeping in Light" (right there was a textbook definition of how to make your audience care. The visuals, the music, the buildup). They're the ones who, when Joss Whedon said "please don't spoil Serenity for other people" took him at his word and took it as a commandment. They're still out there.
But they don't feel that passionately for Star Trek any more.
So, Data died -- in an even less meaningful and more... well, stupid fashion than the Enterprise-D did. Seriously. He had to die because he only had one magical transporter device, and he gave it to Picard instead. Now, forget for just a moment that the idea that Data -- a functionally immortal being who was the only representative of his race -- clearly was a higher priority to keep alive than Jean-Luc Picard, who was a great Starfleet officer but who's only got a few decades left in him anyway, and will no doubt die just like this somewhere down the line, unless the Space-Senility gets him as was presaged in "All Good Things." Forget that, and focus on the magical transporter device he only had one of.
Guys, he'd had that singular device for most of the movie. And every fifteen feet there's a magic box on the Enterprise that makes exact duplicates of things. They even call it a replicator. Data knew Picard was over there, he knew that they'd both need a way back, and it's not like we've ever seen a replicator take more than eighteen seconds to make anything in the past. What the ****?
For that matter, he died because he shot the Macguffin with a phaser, blowing everything up. But he'd already made one leap into space, and there was no one left alive to stop him from doing anything. So why not take out the phaser, set it to overload, run down through the ship retracing the path with your super Android memory and your super Android speed, and leap back out into the black before the bomb went off? Why? Because then Data wouldn't die, and the point was Data had to die.
Naturally, no one cared.
And of course, a complete copy of Data's brain is in B-4, all Spock/Katra like. So either B-4 will magically have his processors become Data-capable somewhere along the line and "oh, hey, Data," or someone will get the bright idea to copy those files back out of them, load them into any random Starship's computer, and then recreate Data's body on the Holodeck.
Of course, the Holodeck gives us a good reason why no one in Starfleet gives a damn that Data's dead. Seriously, the point was sentient artificial life, and now they do that so trivially there's a Ferengi bar owner who has a sentient 1960's lounge singer. Why would anyone bother with android tech now that they have "photonics?"
So, after seven full seasons and four feature length films, the death of the character with the most development, the greatest time and energy put on his growth, the most importance placed upon him and the most focused investment by both producers and fans was met with abject indifference. Far from being "a Star Trek II" moment or a "Empire Strikes Back" moment, it couldn't even compete with the emotional resonance and long term repercussions of the death of Tasha Yar twenty two episodes after we first met her.
So. We have Firefly now. And Babylon 5. And Battlestar Galactica, of all things. And Stargate. They're where the emotional investment is going. They're keeping the faith. And Star Trek? It's off the air for the first time since the 80's, with no chance of it coming back any time soon, and while they're supposedly working on another movie, no one's sure why. Certainly I don't want them to. If they have to, I'd want it to be about Sulu's Excelsior before, you know, George Takei gets too old to play the part. (Or give Chekov the Enterprise-B. I'd pay seven bucks to see Chekov in the center seat.)
This is how you end a franchise. Not with a whimper and not with a bang, but with a bang that everyone treats like a whimper.



It's an interesting point, and I'm surprised that any emotional credit is given to Riker, the author's right though that Riker gets to be the one who acts like the swaggering hero but gets the 1 emotional punch at the end - that's such a byproduct of the '80s and '90s, the sensitive man-hero. :p The replicator issue is dead wrong though, it can only make simple items, but they already had emergency transporters on the show by the dozen, including the ones in the shuttlecraft - that always annoyed me to no end. Or they could just hug like Jillian surprised Kirk with in ST4. The article's dead right about data using the phaser to overload tho'.



But when did Picard or anyone say, "The Enterprise-E was designed to be able to fight Borg, not explore the galaxy"? The only source I recall (and I've barely watched Insurrection and Nemesis) to say the Enterprise-E was built with any thought of the Borg was the Decipher card game.I'm assuming that's interpolation from what Picard said in the early comments of First Contact.

Droid
04-25-2007, 08:49 PM
Thanks for posting it, JediTricks.

Sorry about breaking the rules. I wanted folks to be able to see it and it didn't strike me as particularly vulgar.

It's not like the author said **rest of post deleted**

JediTricks
04-26-2007, 06:22 PM
Thanks for posting it, JediTricks.

Sorry about breaking the rules. I wanted folks to be able to see it and it didn't strike me as particularly vulgar.

It's not like the author said **rest of post deleted**
Heh heh, good one!

It wasn't so bad that I felt you had to be banned or anything, just a couple swears, but Steve's rules on this are still what they are.

Phantom-like Menace
04-26-2007, 11:18 PM
It was an excellent article either way.