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Darkross
03-06-2003, 10:46 AM
Why on earth didn't the Republic Gunship just shoot Dooku down with their blasters or was he out of range? Also...couldn't they have taken out the escorting Geonosian fighters without rockets?

LTBasker
03-06-2003, 02:29 PM
No clue... They said they were out of rockets but whoopty doo, they had 6 other cannons on there. The pods with the Clones in them couldn't point forward though so they could only shoot in a V form. The front cannons haven't really been shown blasting anything, but in games such as Clone Wars they can shoot forward, as can the wing pods. It's doubtful they'd make a craft that isn't able to shoot forward, cause that would just be relying on the rockets which would be a horrid design flaw. (Then again Slave 1 having cannons that weren't originally told about was a flaw)

One big thing about when the Geonosian Fighters came up behind the Gunship though, it has a moveable back turret (it can be seen moving when they're lifting out of the Arena), I'm sure that could point horizonally instead of just at an angle, so it should have been able to take out the Fighters.

Overall I thought the scene was pretty messed actually, I mean they could've just rammed him, no way a ship such as a Gunship could be outran by a tiny little hover-round speeder. Plus I'm suprised a Geonosian Fighter didn't hang behind and go after Padme, even if they didn't know who she was surely since she was on a Republic ship they would've blasted at her, unless they figured no one could or should be able to survive the fall. ;)

mini-rock
03-06-2003, 07:43 PM
My guess was that Dooku was out of range so they had to use rockets, and it looked like the gunship had a hard time keeping up with the speeder.

IMO that was one of the best scenes in a Star Wars or any other movie that I've seen. Padme falling out and then the arguement between Obi-Wan and Anakin while laserblasts are being fired and blowing up all around them still gives me goose bumps everytime I see it.:)

JEDIpartner
03-07-2003, 08:38 AM
It WAS pretty edge of the seat Saturday Matinee kinda stuff! I enjoyed the whole film, but that part from the droid factory on was the best!

AndyW
03-13-2003, 04:50 AM
"Come to your senses, you'll be expelled from the Jedi Order!"

Sorry, drifted off there :D This is a mystery, they must have shot at a hell of a lot of stuff before sighting and pursuing Dooku, as the LAAT/i gunships can carry a hell of a lot of rockets for the two mass driver rocket launchers. Plus theres also the 8 light air to air rockets carried under the wings. I can understand them not using the two front cannons, as they are technically for shooting at land based personal, well, so its says here :).

I personally would have squashed the bastard, or flown over him, I would have thought the stronger repulsorlifts of the gunship would have knocked the old geezer off his speeder :D

stillakid
03-13-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
It WAS pretty edge of the seat...

As in, "how soon can we leave?"

;)

Bel-Cam Jos
03-14-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
Why on earth didn't the Republic Gunship just shoot Dooku down with their blasters or was he out of range?
Easy! They were on Geonosis. See? On Earth? Sigh... :p

I think that clone troopers have a chip in their brains that won't let them shoot at Sith, so they make up excuses instead. Some troopers have crayons in their brains that won't let them shoot straight, too. Or think that someone might be behind a locked door near a cantina. :rolleyes:

Beast
03-14-2003, 07:16 PM
I don't know. Maybe they were just going to use a rocket to knock him off the bike. Shoot it ahead of him, so that the shockwave of the explosion knocked him off the bike. They said to shoot him down, not blow him away. I don't think they wanted him dead. And that would have likely happened, had they opened fire with their large forward mounted blaster cannons.

Plus, with Jango dead, they would have wanted to snag Dooku for to be questioned by the Jedi Council. Not to mention, his death at the hands of the Republic, being the leader of the Sepratists, would have likely made him a martyr. Especially with Obi-Wan's line to Anakin, when he wants to go back and get Padme. About Capturing Dooku, might end the war. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

mini-rock
03-16-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
It WAS pretty edge of the seat Saturday Matinee kinda stuff! I enjoyed the whole film, but that part from the droid factory on was the best!

The droid factory was awesome!! From intense to funny as hell. Great stuff!:D

"Come to your senses" You nailed it AndyW.

JJB your totally right. They wanted Dooku captured not blown away. If the Jedi wanted him dead there is no doubt in my mind that Yoda would have taken care of that.:)

LTBasker
03-17-2003, 02:58 AM
*ahem* As I was watching AOTC tonight, I noticed the 4 bombs under the wings of the Gunships weren't just Hasbro add-ons. They are actually there! Now, obviously the Gunship would be faster than a little old man's speeder, so even if they were out of rockets they could've sped up and drop the bombs to the side. (obviously it would be difficult to aim to hit im) Therefore they would have disabled his speeder from surrounding hits and captured him.

mini-rock
03-17-2003, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
Now, obviously the Gunship would be faster than a little old man's speeder,

Is there something official that I haven't seen that makes this so obvious? The reason I ask is b/c watching the film it seemed to me that Dooku was out running the gunship and slowly pulling away. Now this could be b/c the gunship was being fired upon, and was trying to avoid being hit, or that the last command from a Jedi was to "follow him!"

The fact that Anakin did say "follow him" and Obi-Wan wanted to capture Dooku with Anakin's help are good enough reasons for me why they didn't find another way to "shoot him down."

LTBasker
03-17-2003, 03:14 PM
Well let's see.. the speeder that Dooku was using was obviously just a personal transport not meant for speed (like the actual Speederbikes used in ROTJ) because it had no real appearant thrusters, therefore meaning it could not have had as much speed. Now the Gunship was obviously built to be able to go fast enough, and like you said they were just "following" not going full speed. Now, Obi-Wan wanted Dooku to be brought down (even though rockets would've blown him to bits). Ok, so obviously they could've used the wing cannons to aim in a /\ form directly onto Dooku's speeder, but they didn't because they didn't even mention these because Obi might not have remembered seeing them.

HOWEVER, the bombs were right there on the wing, perfectly visible to him an Anakin, even Anakin should've suggested bombing. All they would've had to do was speed up and bomb the surrounding areas of the speeder, obviously the Clones would be able to do this from the Kamino training programs. All the while they could be actually shooting at the Geonosian Fighters with the rear turret, which they never thought about doing.

OR, they could've blasted the Fighters with the side turrets when they were flanking Dooku or pulling off to pull behind the Gunship, and then sped up, and then shot at the back of the speeder with the rear turret.

But did they? No. Why? Because Lucas created these uber battle ships and then didn't remember them during writing. Would it have really been that hard to change "We're out of rockets" to "Weapon systems are damaged"? It's still 4 words, just longer. :p

Beast
03-17-2003, 03:35 PM
We don't know what sort of bombs those are though. What if they are the equivelent to napalm. Or even a hydrogen bomb. They never drop the bombs during the movie, so who knows exactly what they do. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
03-17-2003, 03:51 PM
It doesn't matter what type of bombs they are, they're just left-out. So was the whole Gunship design just eyecandy for Lucas to have more yep, sweet, and cools from Rick about, or did it actually have a point for using all those weapons?


The bombs should have been used, the cannons should have been used, and heck we never even saw an AT-TE shooting it's back two cannons. Come on, they created these uber supposedly originally "non-military" craft for this huge battle and then they totally disregard the armaments of them. That is just flat-out sloppy. There are so many ways they could have brought Dooku down that the Clones should have known from the training programs. And yet it all could have been changed from just a minor sentence change.

Beast
03-17-2003, 04:05 PM
They're not left out, their just simply not used. If they were anything like Napalm or a Hydrogen Bomb, they wouldn't have used them anytime during the battle. For obvious reasons. Just because they are there, doesn't mean they have to be used. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
03-17-2003, 04:53 PM
Ok, I was checking StarWars.com for info on the Republic Gunship. Those things under the wings are not bombs, they are air-to-air rockets. Again, remember that they want to shoot him down, not kill him. Now here's the info about the ship. :)

Weapon: 3 anti-personnel laser turrets, 4 composite-beam laser turrets, 8 light air-to-air rockets, 2 mass-driver missile launchers

The front of the gunship features hunchback-style cockpit bubbles, wherein the gunship pilot and copilot / gunner sit in single file. Chin-mounted on the craft are a pair of laser cannon turrets. On the gunship's dorsal surface are its primary armaments, two massive rocket launchers fed by a rear-mounted missile belts. The vessel's splayed wings have a pair of automated bubble-turrets, with composite-beam laser weaponry. A second pair of bubble-turret cannons extends on articulated arms from the troop cabin, and are gunner-operated by clone troopers encased within the armored spheres. Air-to-air rockets are slung on the ventral surface of each wing. Rounding out the gunship's armaments is a single tail-cannon that provides covering fire for troops and small vehicles leaving the gunship.

The two primary armaments are mass-driver cannons capable of propelling projectiles to hypersonic velocities. Once airborne, a rocket's internal guidance systems take over, allowing it to home in on designated targets. The gunship's belt-fed rocket launchers allow for specialized ordnance payloads for specific mission requirements. Though standard explosive yields are common, gunships have been fitted with corrosive antimatter shower warheads, radiation burst missles and EMP rockets.
MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

LTBasker
03-17-2003, 05:45 PM
It's still the same equivelent, the Clones are trained in strategic matters, they would have been able to figure out how to carefully aim them. Even with a rocket though Dooku would have a huge chance of being killed, so the logical thing to do would have still been using the cannons on the Gunship, but that wasn't mentioned. So it was sloppy writing not making the line "Weapon Systems are damaged" so that would also explain why they didn't use the back turret to fight back, but no damages are mentioned. You see? It was a badly planned out sequence and was just to show off special effects and for Anakin & Obi to fight more.

mini-rock
03-19-2003, 12:18 PM
Well, between the argument with Anakin & Obi-Wan and all the other action happening during that scene I think most of us don't worry so much about why the gunship didn't fire. The fact that the pilot said they were out of rockets, and were being fired upon, AND the fact that the Clone Pilot had two Jedi yelling orders at him at the same time (Clone Pilot thinking do I land or do I follow?) are good enough reasons why the pilot did't do something different to bring Dooku's speeder down.:)

LTBasker
03-19-2003, 01:10 PM
Actually there was a good time in between when they were following and the time when they were attacked. I don't care if Obi-Wan said follow him, they should have still taken out the two Geonosian Fighters. They could've used the air-to-air missiles for those and they wouldn't of harmed Dooku since he was pretty far ahead. Yeah there was nothing said about shooting them down but they were just there and they were the obvious enemy and there should have been at least discussion about, especially when they were breaking off.

mini-rock
03-19-2003, 01:40 PM
Yeah, maybe there was time (a couple seconds) but the movie is too perfect to nit pick on this one scene. I honestly don't see the problem here. BFD if the Clone Pilot didn't take the initiative, or that Obi-Wan and Anakin's minds should have been on Dooku instead of Obi-Wan's on Anakin's, and Anakin's on Padme. Ewan and Hayden were just too perfect in that scene.:)

LTBasker
03-19-2003, 05:24 PM
Maybe Ewan, but the whole scene wasn't that great, Hayden's acting just couldn't hold up, and it was heavily weakened by the fact that later on Padme just prances off...

mini-rock
03-19-2003, 05:33 PM
Nah, Hayden and Ewan were equally perfect. I'm a firm believer most people are envious of his looks, and try to find fault with hia acting ability.

JediTricks
03-19-2003, 08:45 PM
Couldn't agree less from my perspective. Hayden's acting was all over the map and felt out of place and inappropriate for what the scenes were trying to convey. Granted, that could be Lucas' fault since Lucas is not a good director with such things (and before you jump all over me for saying that, let me remind you that Lucas himself has said as much time and time again - the guy trained as a cinemtographer, not a director and the technical aspects have always been where his talents lie), but ultimately Hayden should be old enough to know when to emote and what type of emotion is appropriate (unless he didn't understand the scene, which in that case would be the fault of the actor, director, AND producer). If you've ever seen the episode of Futurama with Dr Zoidberg's uncle Harold Zoid directing his "big comeback" movie, that's a funny example of what I'm saying.


Shooting down Dooku on his speeder did seem like it would have been a good idea, but Dooku is a Jedi and probably would have been able to dodge the blasts by using the Force and his speederbike's agility.

2-1B
03-20-2003, 03:15 AM
Anakin himself doesn't know when to emote and what emotion is appropriate. I think Hayden did a great job of showing that. :)


Anyway, was there really a distinction between shooting him down and killing him? :confused:
I assumed that if they hit his speeder with a rocket, he'd be blown up along with the vehicle. When Obi-Wan says "if we catch him, we can end this war right now" I thought he just meant "if they caught up to him and stopped him from escaping" whether dead or alive . . .

LTBasker
03-20-2003, 12:37 PM
Good point, Cae. Obi probably figured he got as much out of Dooku as he could about things, and he would be strong enough to never talk. Besides, where would they take him that could hold a powerful Sith? Obi and Ani couldn't even get a slice on him in the duel.

Besides, they also had Poggle that they could go after by putting all their efforts (after Dooky's death) on taking over the planet, or there was Nute Gunray, who I'm sure would easily talk under pressure. Heck, Obi saw all those Seperatist representors, he could look'em up easily, methinks.

JediTricks
03-28-2003, 07:11 PM
Saw the film again last night and reflecting on this thread, that scene really does stand out. The gunship pilot responds to the "shoot him down" order with "we're out of rockets", then they show the gunship following Dooku with none of the guns firing and the ship not being fired upon for quite some time. The forward blaster cannons are just sitting there perfect for the shootin', but let's pretend the gunner in the main cockpit is dead, then there are the 2 turrets on the side with troopers inside, they are clearly NOT dead and just sitting there looking at the nice view or something. Finally, there are the blaster turrets in the wings which aren't doing anything either, but to be fair we never saw them do anything ever - I believe these are supposed to be computer controlled, no less.

They had ample opportunity and simply didn't fire. Funny because when Dooku is taking off in his sailer a little later, Padme and the troopers with her start blasting away at the escaping starship.

LTBasker
03-29-2003, 04:15 AM
http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/multimedia/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Images/Episode_2/Vehicles/Republic_Attack_Gunship&image=aotc-republic_attack-gunship03.jpg&img=&tt=

I dunno if that's from an actual movie scene but since it looks like they tried to make it as canon as possible, and the right cannon seems to be able to fully aim, theres no reason why they couldn't of used those to take down Dooku.

Heck, I think a correct reaction from Obi about the rockets thing would be, "Are you mad!? We only want to disable him, use the cannons!"

As I said before, they should just change the line to "Weapon systems are down."

JediTricks
03-29-2003, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
As I said before, they should just change the line to "Weapon systems are down." But doesn't the ship start to shoot back at the Geonosian fighters right before they blow it up?

LTBasker
03-29-2003, 04:14 PM
Nope, they never fire at the Geonosian Fighters, even when they're flanking off to get behind'em. No doubt they've got radar screens in which they could have seen that coming. They added a back turret and we never even see it fire.

mini-rock
03-29-2003, 06:17 PM
Well, even if the gunship could have used it's other weapons the scene is fine the way it is. The focus is on the characters not the gunship. Kinda like the battle of Hoth when the speeders keep trying to attack the AT-AT's from the front instead of behind. Not a big deal IMO when there are other, more important, parts of the story to focus on.:)

LTBasker
03-29-2003, 11:34 PM
Uh... what? Dude, it doesn't matter if the scene is character-revolving, crappy writing makes the scene feel like a Soap Opera.

A simple line change could make the scene make a whole lot more sense, but instead it looks like they're just rushing into things like idiots. Not just Anakin but Obi-Wan as well. I mean come on, Obi-Wan should have kept a calmer head, and why didn't they have them send a signal right away to other ships about where Dooky was heading? Obviously even with the time it took Padme to get rescued, they could have gotten there way before Dooky took off.

Or can the prequels just do no wrong? ;)

mini-rock
03-30-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
crappy writing makes the scene feel like a Soap Opera.

Like I said I don't mind minor things like that. Like the Hoth Battle I don't dwell to much on this either. Yeah I wonder why things happen a certain way sometimes, but I don't go on and on about one frikkin line in a film. Gimmie a break.


Originally posted by LTBasker

A simple line change could make the scene make a whole lot more sense,

A line change? Are you serious? One little line is going to ruin the best SW film made to date for you? Well crap how about they change the line 3-PO says after Luke asks who the person in the hologram is? Or the "These blasts points are to accurate for sandpeople. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise" line? Man I could go on, but these things are so minor, but you make it seem like this one line has ruined the movie for you. Then here come the insults against the person who wrote the movie when the discussion is supposed to be about the gunship, and it's not even discussion anymore it's bashing.



Originally posted by LTBasker

Or can the prequels just do no wrong? ;)

Nice! No, actually even with all the minor faults of the saga I choose not to bash GL on nit-picky BS, and enjoy the movies for what they are.

LTBasker
03-30-2003, 03:31 AM
The scene was crappy to me, plain and simple. If you enjoy it have fun. I've tried to be fair and explain what's wrong and offer a suggestion of what would make it better, though I know it'll never be listened to. Pardon me if I see potential to make a movie better.

mini-rock
03-30-2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
The scene was crappy to me, plain and simple.

Well, not everyone is going to like it, and it was obvious you didn't after reading the 11 posts you made about this in this thread. That's cool. It's the bashing I think that is uncalled for.


Originally posted by LTBasker

I've tried to be fair and explain what's wrong and offer a suggestion of what would make it better, though I know it'll never be listened to.

Believe it or not I agree that the line you suggested may make better sense, but that's changing the finished product. Try coming up with this stuff on your own. I know I couldn't. I have nothing but respect for the people that come up with this shhhhtuff, but I can't stand the lack of respect that is shown to the person who brought us these movies.

I respect your opinion LT, but it's the bashing I think that can be done without (from anyone) that's all. Late:)

JediTricks
03-30-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Well, even if the gunship could have used it's other weapons the scene is fine the way it is. I disagree, if nothing else they should have reasonably explained why they can't shoot Dooku down instead of "out of rockets". Obi-Wan could have logically responded "so what?!? use something else."


This scene doesn't work right, how can this thread be unduly "bashing" it if there is ample evidence to support its claims? If you don't want to see what you perceive as "bashing", don't read the thread over and over, but I don't see how anybody can claim this scene works without error.

stillakid
03-30-2003, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Believe it or not I agree that the line you suggested may make better sense, but that's changing the finished product. Try coming up with this stuff on your own. I know I couldn't. I have nothing but respect for the people that come up with this shhhhtuff, but I can't stand the lack of respect that is shown to the person who brought us these movies.

Many of us do "come up with stuff on our own." :) We also take that kind of experience and apply it to other works done by other "artists." It doesn't take a significant education in literature to recognize and critique the various elements of fiction. Many of us have come up with and presented a variety of "solutions" that work better than the "errors" that GL wrote into the saga. Granted, 20/20 hindsight is easier for anyone to do, filmmakers included, but for someone who makes a career out of filmmaking, GL should know better than what we've seen out of him lately.

It also isn't "disrespectful" to critique another person's work. I don't get that attitude at all. Artists, good and bad, are critiqued all the time. It comes with the job. Beyond that, it's one thing to just "bash" someone without a well-founded argument to back it up. It's another to study the issue, develop plausible arguments and possible solutions, then present the problem publicly. This rocket issue is just one. Greedo shooting first is another. Additionally, I've consistently shown evidence as to why Qui Gon is a "mistake" in the saga. Down the line, there is ample evidence regarding a variety of "errors" in the saga to justify the level of critique we've seen on these boards and in the general populace. It's your perojative to ignore the critique and enjoy the films as they are. But doing so in no way makes the problems just magically vanish from existence.

mini-rock
03-31-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I disagree, if nothing else they should have reasonably explained why they can't shoot Dooku down instead of "out of rockets". Obi-Wan could have logically responded "so what?!? use something else."

No, b/c Anakin had already told the pilot to "follow him." Then Padme spoke and then Obi-Wan ended it with "There isn't time, Anakin and I can handle this." The scene moved on and so should you.



Originally posted by JediTricks

This scene doesn't work right, how can this thread be unduly "bashing" it if there is ample evidence to support its claims?

Ample evidence?:p More like nit-picky BS. Not the entire thread is bashing just a couple forumites. Maybe YOU should read the thread before making an inaccurate statement.



Originally posted by JediTricks

If you don't want to see what you perceive as "bashing", don't read the thread over and over,

Another inaccurate statement. I've read the thread once. It only takes one reading to see what I'm talking about. Try it, unbiased.



Originally posted by JediTricks

but I don't see how anybody can claim this scene works without error.

Easy. I don't watch AOTC or any other SW movie to nit-pick the hell out of it, and then make a BS statement about sloppy writing when it's one frikkin line for God sakes.

stillakid
03-31-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Easy. I don't watch AOTC or any other SW movie to nit-pick the hell out of it, and then make a BS statement about sloppy writing when it's one frikkin line for God sakes.

"One frikkin' line" can make all the difference. In fact, it can change the entire meaning of a story depending upon where and when it's said.

But this public service announcement is of course brought to the other members of SSG as MR chooses to ignore the comments by SAK. (Remember that monkey thing: hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil :rolleyes: )

JediTricks
04-01-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by mini-rock
No, b/c Anakin had already told the pilot to "follow him." Then Padme spoke and then Obi-Wan ended it with "There isn't time, Anakin and I can handle this." The scene moved on and so should you. No, if that were true then why would the pilot even bother to mention the rockets, wouldn't he have been caught up trying to follow the superceeding order as you claim? These are clone troopers, the pilot is attempting to follow an order, just because they're out of rockets shouldn't change the fact that they were given a task to shoot down the enemy, they didn't say "shoot down the enemy with a rocket", so the task is not complete.


Originally posted by mini-rock
Ample evidence?:p More like nit-picky BS. Not the entire thread is bashing just a couple forumites. Maybe YOU should read the thread before making an inaccurate statement.So let me get this straight, there has to be a majority of people saying something to have any ample evidence? Then I guess your position has no value because no matter what you claim is "nit-picky BS", there are more people on this thread claiming otherwise than not. Of the 10 users who have posted in this thread, 7 of them find fault with this "out of rockets" scene.


If you don't want to see what you perceive as "bashing", don't read the thread over and over,
Originally posted by mini-rock
Another inaccurate statement. I've read the thread once. It only takes one reading to see what I'm talking about. Try it, unbiased.According to forum records, you've posted in this thread 10 times, 2nd only to Basker with 12. Are you responding 10 times to Darkross' and Basker's first posts over and over? No, you're responding to the thread as more and more people respond to it - hence, you keep coming back to the thread over and over.


Originally posted by mini-rock
Easy. I don't watch AOTC or any other SW movie to nit-pick the hell out of it, and then make a BS statement about sloppy writing when it's one frikkin line for God sakes. Wait, so you're saying there IS a problem with this line, it just doesn't bother you? If that's the case, seems like you're agreeing with this topic's opening statement while arguing what you perceive as the motives of others rather than the issue at hand.


I'm sick and tired of you bashing the other opinions around here, you don't have to agree with them, but you don't have to act like a troll when you disagree with them. You continuously insult those who don't agree with your position rather sticking to arguing the merits.

stillakid
04-01-2003, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I'm sick and tired of you bashing the other opinions around here, you don't have to agree with them, but you don't have to act like a troll when you disagree with them. You continuously insult those who don't agree with your position rather sticking to arguing the merits.

Or he clicks on the "ignore posts" button so he doesn't have to deal with the actual issues with solid arguments. That kind of behavior just strikes me as cowardly. It's far easier to blame the messenger than it is to recognize and acknowledge that there just might be fault with something he's grown to love beyond reason.

mini-rock
04-02-2003, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
No, if that were true then why would the pilot even bother to mention the rockets, wouldn't he have been caught up trying to follow the superceeding order as you claim? These are clone troopers, the pilot is attempting to follow an order, just because they're out of rockets shouldn't change the fact that they were given a task to shoot down the enemy, they didn't say "shoot down the
enemy with a rocket", so the task is not complete.

HUH? The superceeding order WAS "shoot him down" and the Clonetrooper replied "We're out of rockets" and that's why Anakin said "follow him." As for why the Clonepilot's first suggestion was to use rockets who knows. Perhaps he felt an air to air rocket would have been best, and the laser canons not accurate enough to do the job. I'm not sure, but considering the Clonetroopers training, and their performance against the Battledroids, IMO makes them more knowlegeable about their weapons and capabilities than a Jedi who's only weapon is a lightsaber.


Originally posted by JediTricks
No, you're responding to the thread as more and more people respond to it

Yes. when my post is addressed by another forumite or moderator in their post I respond.


Originally posted by JediTricks
Wait, so you're saying there IS a problem with this line, it just doesn't bother you? If that's the case, seems like you're agreeing with this topic's opening statement while arguing what you perceive as the motives of others rather than the issue at hand.

No, I said that Baskers "weapons system down" line might make more sense, that's it. But EVEN if I did have a problem with that line I wouldn't let it bother me to the point of not enjoying what was an excellent scene between Obi-Wan and Anakin. No, only the 3 people (you, Basker, and stilladik who's on my ignore list) who seem to shoot down the prequels at just about every opportunity, and especially if someone has anything positive to say about them would. This is why stillakid is on my ignore list b/c anytime someone posted something positive here he comes to break them down and the prequels. Don't deny this JT, there have been several times where you had to get after him in the forums b/c of that. I will admit that you have been better since our last little spat. That was until I read the next quote.



Originally posted by JediTricks
I'm sick and tired of you bashing the other opinions around here, you don't have to agree with them, but you don't have to act like a troll when you disagree with them. You continuously insult those who don't agree with your position rather sticking to arguing the merits.

Well, then I guess I'm just as guilty as Basker and almost as guilty as you and stillakid then. Hmm?

stillakid
04-02-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Well, then I guess I'm just as guilty as Basker and almost as guilty as you and stillakid then. Hmm?

That statement was made with the assumption (and very incorrect conclusion) that any of my comments have been specifically meant to be "insulting" to the posters, rather than as direct rebuttal to the arguments themselves.

MiniRock is clearly confusing another person's discussion of the issues with the concept of a personal attack, and as JT pointed out correctly, when that happens it becomes less about the topic and falls into something else entirely.

MiniRock has clearly chosen to not discuss the merits of the films, but would rather make blanket praise and deride those who disagree with him, or in my case, merely ignore what I have to say to avoid dealing with having to build a strong argument to the contrary. I've had plenty of people here disagree with my conclusions, but clicking "ignore" would deprive me of hearing other points of view and the opportunity to actually learn from their experience, for good or bad. Of course, it's MiniRock's perojative to do as he pleases, but in the end, it's his loss, not ours.

JediTricks
04-02-2003, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Or he clicks on the "ignore posts" button so he doesn't have to deal with the actual issues with solid arguments. That kind of behavior just strikes me as cowardly. It's far easier to blame the messenger than it is to recognize and acknowledge that there just might be fault with something he's grown to love beyond reason. I don't think so, some people just can't take certain individuals making it easier to simply ignore them than fight it on - it is far from cowardly to accept your weaknesses and try to move on. It's there so if users think they cannot stand reading or arguing with someone else, they can choose to avoid letting themselves get sucked in over and over.



Originally posted by mini-rock
But EVEN if I did have a problem with that line I wouldn't let it bother me to the point of not enjoying what was an excellent scene between Obi-Wan and Anakin. No, only the 3 people (you, Basker, and stilladik who's on my ignore list) who seem to shoot down the prequels at just about every opportunity, and especially if someone has anything positive to say about them would. This is why stillakid is on my ignore list b/c anytime someone posted something positive here he comes to break them down and the prequels. Don't deny this JT, there have been several times where you had to get after him in the forums b/c of that. I will admit that you have been better since our last little spat. That was until I read the next quote. You're assuming that it's this little stuff that hampers my enjoyment of the prequels, you're assuming I'm shooting down the prequels at every opportunity when most of the time what I post is fact, and you're assuming that just because you think it's an "excellent scene" means that everybody who disagrees with you is wrong.


Originally posted by mini-rock
This is why stillakid is on my ignore list b/c anytime someone posted something positive here he comes to break them down and the prequels. Don't deny this JT, there have been several times where you had to get after him in the forums b/c of that. I will admit that you have been better since our last little spat. That was until I read the next quote. I'm not going to discuss another forumite's behavior, that's between him and the staff, not you. As for "you have been better since our last little spat", which one of us is a moderator and which one of us isn't? Which one of us makes and enforces policy on these forums? I try to be a fair moderator at all times, since this forum has a mod I don't always read the threads around here but when I do, I do so as a responsible person.


Originally posted by mini-rock
Well, then I guess I'm just as guilty as Basker and almost as guilty as you and stillakid then. Hmm? No, in this thread Basker, myself, and Stilla all respond to the comments themselves while you insult others' opinions several times - all the time stating your opinion is the superior one. Perhaps you place too much ego in the prequels or some other reason that alternative viewpoints about them are threatening to you, but ultimately you are responsible for your words here and I think you come off looking like a forum troll by several things you have said in this thread.

Jedi Clint
04-03-2003, 02:59 AM
What was the issue again? A line in a SW flick? Can we discuss our personal issues via email or PM and return this discussion to it's roots? If not, why should this thread remain open?


Was the goal to end Dooku's life at this point? Does the order fall short of authorizing his destruction? Would the rocket have been used to dislodge him from his speeder without causing him permanent damage? Could another weapon have performed the same task? Once Anakin ordered the clone pilot to follow him, was the previous order recended?

We can speculate on the answers to these questions and others. However, the answers we offer will bring us no closer to attaining a definitive absolution for either the proponent or the opponent of the issue. It is not required that we prove or disprove either's interpretation of their experience.

Some of us wish to explore the possibility of fault within this sequence, others want to find coherence in the same. There is no right or wrong here folks. This a hypothetical discussion of characters and places that do not exist. The "rules" of this existence are themselves the subject of debate.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Was the goal to end Dooku's life at this point?
Clearly, yes. Obi Wan already knew how dangerous Dooku was and they obviously went into the landing area with the intent to "stop" him. Obi clearly knew the powers that Dooku likely had at his disposal so "stopping" him could mean nothing short of death.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Does the order fall short of authorizing his destruction?
No, for the reasons above. Obi knew that Dooku had to die.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Would the rocket have been used to dislodge him from his speeder without causing him permanent damage?
Moot question, because of the above explanation. Stopping Dooku meant killing him. Any weapon on board the Gunship could have done that. In fact, the Gunship likely is faster than the speeder so the vehicle itself could easily have been used to ram Dooku and, at the very least, stop his advance toward the hanger. Even if he just fell at that point, the Jedi would have been able to leap out and continue the fight on the ground.


Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Could another weapon have performed the same task? Any of the laser turrets. The Gunship itself.



Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Once Anakin ordered the clone pilot to follow him, was the previous order recended? I'm lost on this part of the script. When did Anakin order the clone pilot to follow him? Which order are you referring to?

LTBasker
04-03-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Clearly, yes. Obi Wan already knew how dangerous Dooku was and they obviously went into the landing area with the intent to "stop" him. Obi clearly knew the powers that Dooku likely had at his disposal so "stopping" him could mean nothing short of death.

Well Obi obviously did have the thought of trying to capture him, however they lost in a saber duel with them both against Dooku, just cause they have a Gunship a few Clone Troopers didn't mean they would be able to take Dooku prisoner. He was obviously a powerful Sith and would need a good amount of Jedi to be captured, so it did have to come to an end. Afterall, to apprehend someone to question they've got eye witness reports that Nute Gunray was in on it, and that Poggle would remain on Geonosis so all they would've had to do was have the Clone Army flush out the planet.


Originally posted by stillakid
Moot question, because of the above explanation. Stopping Dooku meant killing him. Any weapon on board the Gunship could have done that. In fact, the Gunship likely is faster than the speeder so the vehicle itself could easily have been used to ram Dooku and, at the very least, stop his advance toward the hanger. Even if he just fell at that point, the Jedi would have been able to leap out and continue the fight on the ground.


If the laser (or phaser...) turrets had been fired, they might've been able to control their power since it would be a huge ship controlling them, so they could have made them just powerful enough to fry the engines. The thing that gets me about that though is that not a sinlge shot is fired, not even by the rear turret when the Fighters are behind'em. The blasts wouldn't of effected Dooku, so there's no real point to just sitting there like ducks. ;)


Originally posted by stillakid

I'm lost on this part of the script. When did Anakin order the clone pilot to follow him? Which order are you referring to?

Actually I'm pretty sure the order to follow Dooku is given when they start following, not after the weapons line.

Jedi Clint
04-03-2003, 02:46 PM
Obi Wan: "Look over there"
Anakin: "It's Dooku! Shoot him down!"
Clone Pilot: "We're out of rockets sir."
Anakin: "Follow him."

:)

"Clearly"?

mini-rock
04-03-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by LTBasker
Actually I'm pretty sure the order to follow Dooku is given when they start following, not after the weapons line.

Obi-Wan "Look over there!"

Anakin "It's Dooku! SHOOT HIM DOWN!"

Clonepilot "We're out of rockets sir."

Anakin "Follow him!"

Padme "We're gonna need some help."

Obi-Wan "There isn't time, Anakin and I can handle this."

Scene cuts to Dooku.


EDIT - AHHH SHOOT!! JC beat me too it by a few seconds.:)

LTBasker
04-03-2003, 04:15 PM
Ah, k. However Obi-Wan was in charge of Anakin, very out of character for him to not take charge over Anakin and give the Clones his own instructions.

2-1B
04-03-2003, 05:06 PM
I don't think it is out of character for Obi-Wan.
The goal at that moment is to get Dooku. If Anakin is making the right calls, I would think Obers would be wise to let him have his moment. Bring him along under proper supervision . . .

. . . much like with Ani's order to "aim right above the fuel cells" -- Obi-Wan liked what he was seeing out of his apprentice.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Obi Wan: "Look over there"
Anakin: "It's Dooku! Shoot him down!"
Clone Pilot: "We're out of rockets sir."
Anakin: "Follow him."

:)

"Clearly"?

I see. So you're asking if the order to "shoot him down" was rescinded after they were made aware of the rocket situation?

I wasn't in the ship when that happened, but my answer to that would be why assume such a thing. The "follow him" order was pretty dumb and obvious. I mean, what's the alternative?:

"We're out of rockets!"

"Okay, well, let's turn around and go find something else to do."


So, the following thing should have been automatic and because the order was to shoot him down, these genetically enhanced Clones should have been able to deduce that the goal was to bring him down in any way possible, which would include using lasers or the Gunship itself.

JediTricks
04-03-2003, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by LTBasker
If the laser (or phaser...) turrets had been fired, they might've been able to control their power since it would be a huge ship controlling them, so they could have made them just powerful enough to fry the engines. The thing that gets me about that though is that not a sinlge shot is fired, not even by the rear turret when the Fighters are behind'em. The blasts wouldn't of effected Dooku, so there's no real point to just sitting there like ducks. ;) This is part of what gets me about this scene too. The pilot's comment about being out of rockets seems out of place. This isn't a World War I biplane, so the "shoot him down" order that the pilot accepted implies that Dooku may have to be totally blown away - the pilot's response about rockets solidifies this. The rockets are clearly more powerful than the blasters in other scenes AND less maneuverable, so the blasters would have been a better choice to follow through with the order, so why not go with 1 of the 7 blasters currently at the ship's disposal, especially when they're not being used for anything else at the time? The rockets seem almost like a non sequitur to the scene to me, the pilot could have responded "my armor itches" and it would have been just as effective as the line he actually delivered.

I still don't see how being out of rockets completes this pilot's task... unless he's the rocket-control trooper, then it makes perfect sense. ;) It's Anakin's fault for giving the order to the trooper who only has only been trained to fire rockets from the Gunship. :D

Jedi Clint
04-04-2003, 12:06 AM
I choose not to speculate. :happy: I asked if Anakin's follow-up ("Follow him.") to the clone pilots response ("We're out of rockets.") put a stop to any further discussion of "shooting him down". Whatever the answer, it is merely conjecture.

JediTricks
04-04-2003, 06:03 PM
I don't believe so, unless the clone runs on Windows v3.1 and can't multitask. ;) "Follow him" doesn't have to countermand the "shoot him down" order IMO, they'd have to follow him to shoot him down if he was in front of them.


This "out of rockets" comment is really where I have pause, it's like if I went to a movie theater concession stand and said "I'd like some snacks" and the employee responds "Sorry, we're out of Milk Duds" and then promptly walks away.

However, if we use Basker's alternate line, then the employee would respond "Sorry, the register is broken". :D

mini-rock
04-04-2003, 08:15 PM
IMO the Clonpilot says "we're out of rockets" b/c thats what he believes will work the best in that situation. We saw these used, and they seem to be pretty accurate. Alot more than lasers, which they proly could have used for a second or 2 on Dooku before the Geonosian fighters got behind the gunship, but from watching the movie the rockets would have been better. Also, without knowing the full range of the rear turret it's hard to speculate if that would have been able to fire on the Geo fighters, since we never saw it fire in the film or have anything showing it's full rotation or range. After watching the movie again today I have to say that the lines work as they are.

Also, about not using another weapon after Anakin says "follow him" let's not forget that the Clones "are totally obidient, taking any order without question" according to Lama Su. This is shown when the Clonetrooper suggests to Padme that they go back to the "forward command center." Padme orders him to get a transport, and he follows her orders.:)

LTBasker
04-04-2003, 08:29 PM
But another fact is, they weren't really out of rockets. From what we can tell, rockets would've blown Dooku away, and they still had the 8 air-to-air missiles on the bottom of the wings. If they knew rockets would have killed Dooku, then they could have just fired the missiles, if they weren't wanting to kill Dooku then Obi should've stepped in with "NO! We need him alive, target the engines with the laser cannons!"

Also from what we could tell, they only fired the Rockets at that one enemy vessel and they instantly saw Dooku after that. Obviously they would've heard rockets being fired off in a distance before they came into the Arena, so it's doubtful that Gunship had been battling elsewhere, because Dooku would have also been informed. So really theres no reason they were out of rockets, cause I doubt they weren't fully stocked before being deployed.

mini-rock
04-05-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by LTBasker
But another fact is, they weren't really out of rockets.

How is this fact? Do you have evidence to back this up?


Originally posted by LTBasker

and they still had the 8 air-to-air missiles on the bottom of the wings.

How do we know this? Is this fact also?



Originally posted by LTBasker

Also from what we could tell, they only fired the Rockets at that one enemy vessel and they instantly saw Dooku after that.


Not true, we saw the gunship with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme on it fire before that ("Aim right above the fuel cells").

Also remember that there is a battle going on where they could have easily shot off all of their rockets. To say thats what happened though is speculation of course, but it's seems solid to me considering they are in an intense battle.

BTW, for anyone who is interested, I saw AOTC (again) today and there is a scene where we do see the rear turret on the gunship firing. It's at the 1:56:01 mark where the gunship is lifting out of the arena. I can see how it's easy to miss. I mean geez, I have seen this movie over 80 times on a 65" RPTV HDTV being fed a progressive scan signal from a DVD player (480P) and I still missed it. But from the few times the turret is shown, it shows it in a downward position, and that was why the gunship with Ani, Obi, and Padme could not fire on the Geonosian fighters. So by going with what is shown in the movie we have to assume the rear turret has a limited ROM.

LTBasker
04-06-2003, 12:05 AM
You found the turret firing but you missed the missiles? ;) Canon technical aspects list the Gunship as having 8 air-to-air missiles housed in the bottom middle of the wings. These can be seen several times during the Anakin and Obi-Wan argument, and yes they are shown fully stocked.

It is hard to tell if the back turret is limited to an angle posistioning, however it's not hard to doubt it would easily straighten up. The housing of it's base is like a manual car's shifter, it's not a hard casing, it's obviously able to bend due to the fabric-like creases in it. Otherwise that sort of housing is virtually pointless to install, because it just means that the layer may be easily compromised or worn out.

mini-rock
04-06-2003, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
You found the turret firing but you missed the missiles?

I always thought those little objects just inside the bubbles on the end of the wings were bombs. What are the bubbles on the end of the wings for?


Originally posted by LTBasker

It is hard to tell if the back turret is limited to an angle posistioning, however it's not hard to doubt it would easily straighten up. The housing of it's base is like a manual car's shifter, it's not a hard casing, it's obviously able to bend due to the fabric-like creases in it. Otherwise that sort of housing is virtually pointless to install, because it just means that the layer may be easily compromised or worn out.

Still speculation, based from what position the turret was in the few times we saw it in the movie. Did you happen to see it in any other position in the film? I sure didn't.

mini-rock
04-06-2003, 05:17 AM
Nevermind the question, dude your right. Those are the light air to air missles not bombs like I thought. So now the question is why didn't the Clonepilots use those? Did they feel they wouldn't do the job or are they "trained" not to kill Dooku. In fact not one of the gunships used the air to air missles. Puzzling.

JediTricks
05-08-2003, 07:55 PM
I was thinking about this the other night: Let's pretend that "we're out of rockets" actually meant "weapons systems are down"... so why didn't Padme and the troopers aboard the gunship whip out the blaster rifles and start shooting??? Even if there was little chance they'd hit anything, they shoot at Dooku's faster, larger sailer as it's leaving the scene; so why not try to hit the old guy on the speederbike who is going in a straight line?

mini-rock
05-09-2003, 01:55 AM
Good question. They did have what...a good 5 or 6 seconds to do that before the Geo fighters went behind them. Ater that they'd be crazy to try it.

What I'd like to know now is why every gunship still has those rockets there under the wing while their firing off the main rockets like crazy? Do they not work or are they just a housing of some sort, and the rockets have already been fired? I'm sure eventually the question will be answered by the JC.:)

Darkross
05-09-2003, 10:51 AM
Well...how come the Geonosian fighters we're shot down using the turret in the back of the gunship? Why on Earth didn't they fire back at them? No...wonder the ship was destroyed...they were sitting ducks not fighting back.

mini-rock
05-09-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
Well...how come the Geonosian fighters we're shot down using the turret in the back of the gunship? Why on Earth didn't they fire back at them? No...wonder the ship was destroyed...they were sitting ducks not fighting back.


Once again the rear turret obviously has a limited range. This is easy to tell just from watching the movie.

JediTricks
05-09-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Darkross
Well...how come the Geonosian fighters we're shot down using the turret in the back of the gunship? Why on Earth didn't they fire back at them? No...wonder the ship was destroyed...they were sitting ducks not fighting back. The term "we're out of rockets" is actually trooper shorthand for "weapons systems are down". ;)

Darkross
05-13-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by mini-rock
Once again the rear turret obviously has a limited range. This is easy to tell just from watching the movie.

Well then it must be extremely limited range...since the Geonosian fighters weren't that far away from the ship. A turret with that much limited range is useless.

mini-rock
05-13-2003, 11:37 AM
I wouldn't say useless, but limited. They were useful lifting off from the arena.