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TheDarthVader
03-24-2003, 06:17 PM
Time to do some speculating. (that is why I posted this in the no spoilers forum). If we get to see Qui Gon Jinn come back as a spirit, who will see him first? The choices that I can think of are: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, or Yoda. MAKE YOUR SPECUALTIONS! I believe Obi-Wan will be the first to see him. Qui Gon will then talk to him about Anakin.

Pendo
03-25-2003, 02:45 AM
I think between the times of Episode II and III Yoda will learn to communicate with Qui-Gon and will have many conversations with him about Anakin and Obi-Wan, etc. I still think Yoda will keep it a secret though.

I feel that Qui-Gon will make an appearence to Obi-Wan after Anakin has turned to the Dark Side (but before Anakin becomes Vader). Qui-Gon will probably give Obi-Wan advice on how to help turn Anakin back, or to protect Anakin's children (child?).

PENDO!

Darkross
03-27-2003, 10:52 AM
Well I for one hope we see Qui-Gon in Episode III...since he was in EI and we heard him in EII...it would only make sense to show him in spirit form in EIII. My guess is that he'll communicate with Obi-Wan first about Anakin and perhaps reveal to Obi-Wan how to appear in spirit form after death.

Pendo
03-27-2003, 11:30 AM
I read somewhere once that Liam Neeson was supposed to do some filming for Episode II but due to his motorcycle accident they had to change the scene. Now that Liam has recovered from his accident he may possibly do some filming for Episode III :).

PENDO!

icatch9
03-27-2003, 12:40 PM
AT this point anything is possible. I feel that Qui Gons presence will give the PT a lot more substance. A lot more of what we seemt to be missing.

I think that Qui Gon would have to appear to Obi Wan first, it would just be a better sceen that way. A shocked Yoda wouldn't be cool, but a mystified Obi Wan would be good. Yoda wouldn't be surprised as I'm sure he's figured it out on his own by now.

I wounder if Jedi Spirits come back when thier purpose in life has yet been completed. A case could be made for this in all the Spirits we've sceen. Clearly Obi Wan came back to help guide Luke along his Jedi path. Qui Gon would/could come back to help guide Obi Wan to help Anakin. Yoda came back to see Lukes completion as a Jedi and Anakin came back to assure Luke that he was good and not evil after all.

More and more questions and not to many answers. Oh well, 2005 is just around the corner :D.

TheDarthVader
03-27-2003, 04:06 PM
But in the AOTC book it says that Yoda was surprised to hear Qui-Gon's voice. I don't believe Yoda has figured it out yet. And it is weird that the "rebel" Jedi who disobeyed the council would know how to become a spirit and the others would be dumbfounded about it.

icatch9
03-28-2003, 08:17 AM
I didn't mean that Yoda knew in AOTC, I mean by the time of the next movie he would have figured it out.

It's not like Qui Gon was some sort of dark Jedi. He was still good and belived 100% in the force. Just becasue he defied the council on occasion doesn't make him a bad Jedi. The council doesn't rule the Force, the Force rules the Force.

Perhaps Qui Gon is the only one who was ever killed with such an important task left undone. This is the proficy of th"The One". Chances are that has something to do with it. All the spirits who have come back have been very involved with Anakin and Luke.

Yoda-Wan
03-31-2003, 11:03 AM
What you just said ICATCH9 is very interesting. Your right, that all the spirits thus for has been connected in some way to fulfilling the prophecy of the Chosen One. I never thought of that.

One thing that wasn't really explained in the AOTC movie but was in the novel, is that when Yoda heard QuiGon's voice, he was tapping into the Dark Side. He and Mace agreed that they had to do that to try and figure out what was going on since the Dark Side was clouding everything. That's why he felt Anakin going on his tirade. B/C both he and Anakin was on the Dark Side at that time. That's also when he heard QuiGon.......

It would not surprise me if QuiGon in some way turned out to be a bad guy. Not neccessarily a full-on Sith, but bad nontheless. That would explain why Yoda heard him on the Dark Side of the Force. That could also explain the comment that Dooku made when Obi-Wan told him that Qui-Gon wouldn't join him. Dooku was fairly confident when he said "Don't be so sure". It could be a bit of foreshadowing.

Pendo
03-31-2003, 11:11 AM
VERY NICE YODA-WAN :D! I agree :).

PENDO!

stillakid
03-31-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Time to do some speculating. (that is why I posted this in the no spoilers forum). If we get to see Qui Gon Jinn come back as a spirit, who will see him first? The choices that I can think of are: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, or Yoda. MAKE YOUR SPECUALTIONS! I believe Obi-Wan will be the first to see him. Qui Gon will then talk to him about Anakin.

IF Qui Gon returns, Anakin will get the honor. Afterall, it was he who discovered the boy (despite the clearly contradictory dialogue to the contrary in the OT). As Anakin further tumbles over the deep end, Qui Gon will poof into view to have a chat, much like the way Spirit Ben poofs in just as Luke is about to give up (out on the snowfield). The nature of the chat is open to debate of course. The way Lucas is getting his rocks off by "mirroring" the Original Trilogy, the obvious choice is Anakin.

IF Qui Gon is really a good guy, then his appearance will be nothing short of a warning to Anakin, who will then proceed to ignore the spirit. This option would stay consistent with Lucas's previous precedent of mirroring classic mythology by having the hero be visited by an otherworldly spirit being in a time of need.

The more unlikely scenario would be for Qui Gon to be inherently "bad" so that the appearance would be to goad Anakin on so that he completes his turn to the darkside. What's silly about that is that we have no evidence thus far to even remotely suggest that Qui Gon is on the side of evil. Also, as a plot device to get Anakin to turn, it's unnecessary. Thus far Anakin's tirades have been entirely unjustified, but we do have a sense of his lack of self-esteem and desire for greatness. That really is enough to justify his turn to evil. (in the same vein as a Hitler or Hussein character) All that is needed is a final catalyst to push him over the edge. The Spirit of Qui Gon ain't it.

TheDarthVader
03-31-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
What's silly about that is that we have no evidence thus far to even remotely suggest that Qui Gon is on the side of evil......The Spirit of Qui Gon ain't it.

I agree. Qui Gon is not bad. <directed to icatch9> I never said he was bad either. I said that he was a "rebel" jedi. Meaning he defies the council.

Brainiak76
04-01-2003, 05:51 PM
yoda-wan!! i feel the same exact way!! TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUTTA MY MOUTH!:D

keith koth
04-02-2003, 05:02 PM
Anakin will not see the ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn.

In ANH remember the saber duel between Vader and Kenobi? When Vader strikes down Obi, he seems puzzled that Obi disappeared. Obi gives in to the force so that he will become more powerful. If Vader had known this, then he would not have struck Obi down.

On another note...I have previously discussed the possibility of Qui-Gon being less than good...not necessarily evil...but less than good. I believe we discussed this topic in EIII spoilers under the "things that make you go hmm" thread. For now I will leave it at that, but if anyone would like to discuss this in detail, then let's start a separate thread...as that topic is worthy of it's own discussion.

stillakid
04-02-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Anakin will not see the ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn.

In ANH remember the saber duel between Vader and Kenobi? When Vader strikes down Obi, he seems puzzled that Obi disappeared. Obi gives in to the force so that he will become more powerful. If Vader had known this, then he would not have struck Obi down.


I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that it makes a difference in the end if Anakin sees Qui Gon (relative to the ANH sequence you describe).

Vader/Anakin doesn't necessarily know that a Jedi can become "more powerful" once dead. In fact, by all accounts, he goes on a killing spree to dispatch every Jedi he can find during Episode III and thereafter. We can probably safely assume that none of those deceased come back to haunt anyone, so Anakin has no reason to suspect that Obi Wan will be any different even if Qui Gon makes an appearance.

Besides, simply fading into view from beyond the grave to issue a word of advice barely constitutes becoming "more powerful," whether we're talking about Obi Wan Kenobi or Qui Gon Jinn, so in the end, it doesn't really make a lick of difference. :)

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
(despite the clearly contradictory dialogue to the contrary in the OT).

I don't remember Obi Wan ever saying "when I found and started training anakin" at any point in the OT.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I don't remember Obi Wan ever saying "when I found and started training anakin" at any point in the OT.


When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

The reference to "pilot" in the above statement from ROTJ probably originally referred to actual spaceship flying. However, we can now discern that it refers to Podracing.

The I's definitively suggest that Obi Wan Kenobi was the one who found Anakin, recognized his potential, and then made the conscious decision to train him as a Jedi. According to the Original Trilogy films, it was all Obi Wan's doing. No one else was involved.



BEN'S VOICE: He will learn patience.

YODA: Hmmm. Much anger in him, like his father.

BEN'S VOICE: Was I any different when you taught me?

This dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back definitely tells us that Yoda taught Obi Wan Kenobi. While AOTC shows us that Yoda teaches "younglings," we also saw in TPM that a younger Anakin was not "angry" at that age. That angry bi-polar angst was only evident in AOTC, later in Anakin's teenaged years. So yet another contradiction exists.

In ESB, Obi Wan tells us that Yoda taught him while he was "angry," just as Anakin was. Yet Anakin was not "angry" until his teenaged years. Thus, we can accurately surmise that Yoda did not teach Anakin until his teenaged years, based on ESB dialogue and AOTC actions. But, as the Prequels clearly illustrate, Yoda did not teach Anakin during his teenaged years. George Lucas invented a brand new character to teach Anakin at that "angry" point of his life. Ergo, a clear contradiction.



You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.

Spirit Ben told Luke that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him. Had he said, a Jedi Master, then there would be adequate justification to allow for the existence of Qui Gon Jinn to be a teacher to a younger Obi Wan.

However, even if you don't agree with this conclusion (even though grammatical rules fully support it), the above statement by Obi Wan about finding Anakin would definitively contradict it. All three statements above will have to be altered in Lucas's super-nifty DVD edition of the Original Trilogy to make the continuity flow between the Prequels and the original films.

keith koth
04-03-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
The I's definitively suggest that Obi Wan Kenobi was the one who found Anakin, recognized his potential, and then made the conscious decision to train him as a Jedi. According to the Original Trilogy films, it was all Obi Wan's doing. No one else was involved.

When I first knew him (easily interpreted as meeting Anakin AFTER Qui-Gon discovered him), your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi (He did at the end of EI when he told yoda...). I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda (Merely a plot device to show how Obi-Wan had matured into a wise old man as opposed to his younger "foolish years"). I was wrong.

Nowhere do I see a suggestion that Obi-Wan discovered Anakin



This dialogue from The Empire Strikes Back definitely tells us that Yoda taught Obi Wan Kenobi. While AOTC shows us that Yoda teaches "younglings," we also saw in TPM that a younger Anakin was not "angry" at that age. That angry bi-polar angst was only evident in AOTC, later in Anakin's teenaged years. So yet another contradiction exists.

I'm sure that Yoda did teach Obi-Wan...at some point Obi-Wan was a youngling.


In ESB, Obi Wan tells us that Yoda taught him while he was "angry," just as Anakin was. Yet Anakin was not "angry" until his teenaged years. Thus, we can accurately surmise that Yoda did not teach Anakin until his teenaged years, based on ESB dialogue and AOTC actions. But, as the Prequels clearly illustrate, Yoda did not teach Anakin during his teenaged years. George Lucas invented a brand new character to teach Anakin at that "angry" point of his life. Ergo, a clear contradiction.

10 years passed between EI and EII...plenty of time for anakin to display fits of anger.



Spirit Ben told Luke that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him. Had he said, a Jedi Master, then there would be adequate justification to allow for the existence of Qui Gon Jinn to be a teacher to a younger Obi Wan.

As stated above, clearly Yoda could have trained a "youngling" Obi-Wan; thus, no contradiction there. To me the word "instructed" implies that Yoda taught Obi-Wan as part of a larger group (i.e., Bear Clan, etc.). If it were a 1 on 1 relationship, then the proper word usage should have been "mentored".

stillakid
04-03-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
When I first knew him (easily interpreted as meeting Anakin AFTER Qui-Gon discovered him),
True, however you're taking that piece of that statement out of context to support your argument. Every word of the complete "thought," which extends from ANH to ROTJ, contributes to the argument that the OT and the Prequels are contradictory. Each statement does not exist in a vaccuum and absolutely has to be evaluated in relation to every other screen fact that is presented to us from Episode I through to Episode VI.

So, yes, "When I first knew him" can be interpreted as being correct when viewing TPM, however there is more to Old Ben's recounting of the past than that.




Originally posted by keith koth
your father was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi (He did at the end of EI when he told yoda...).
No, Obi Wan absolutely did not "take it upon" himself. Qui Gon was the one who made the choice in TPM. Obi Wan was with the council and didn't agree that Anakin should be trained. "He's dangerous, everyone realizes it. Why can't you?" Obi asks. The ROTJ statement above does not reflect that ambivalent attitude displayed by the younger Obi Wan in TPM.

So, at the end of TPM, when Obi Wan tells Yoda that he will train Anakin, it is not because he "took it upon" himself, rather, Obi Wan is doing it because he promised his own master that he would. Obi Wan's ambivalence continues well into AOTC. This is not the attitude of someone who finds an apprentice, recognizes his potential, then decides to teach him despite the concerns of others. That was the message the OT sent to the audience which the Prequels clearly contradict.




Originally posted by keith koth
I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda (Merely a plot device to show how Obi-Wan had matured into a wise old man as opposed to his younger "foolish years").
Sort of. As we were meant to believe originally, a younger Obi Wan was just as brash as young Luke Skywalker. As the OT explains clearly, Obi was out on some mission or something, unexpectedly ran into a young Anakin Skywalker, saw how great a pilot he was, recognized how "strongly the Force was with him," and decided to train him on his own, figuring that he could do it "just as well as Yoda."

However, in the Prequels, this does not even remotely occur. While Obi Wan sits idle on the Queen's ship in the desert, Qui Gon Jinn goes on a mission, unexpectedly runs into young Anakin Skywalker, sees how great a podracing pilot he is (um, wasn't Obi Wan supposed to see this?), recognized how strongly the Force was with him (um, wasn't Obi Wan supposed to realize this?), and decided to train the boy himself (um, wasn't Obi Wan supposed to make this decision?). The only reason that Obi Wan winds up teaching Anakin is because Qui Gon went and got himself killed.




Originally posted by keith koth
Nowhere do I see a suggestion that Obi-Wan discovered Anakin
It's all there in black and white. How can you not see it?:confused:






Originally posted by keith koth
I'm sure that Yoda did teach Obi-Wan...at some point Obi-Wan was a youngling.
Yes, but did you read what I wrote previously? The ESB dialogue specifically refers to Ben being taught when he was "angry" like Luke is now. The only time the Prequels show Anakin as "angry" is in AOTC, when he is a teenager. In TPM, Anakin is the son of Howdy Doody, happy as can be. "Golly, Mister!" True, there is a time period between TPM and AOTC that Anakin can grow "angry," but by your own definition, Yoda teaches "younglings," who would be more of a TPM-Anakin age. This hardly meshes even remotely with the dialogue of the OT.




Originally posted by keith koth
10 years passed between EI and EII...plenty of time for anakin to display fits of anger.
Yes, maybe. But because we have absolutely no idea at what age Yoda stops teaching "younglings," and moves them on to individual "masters," all we have to go on is what's on screen. And what's on screen across the saga is contradictory.





Originally posted by keith koth
As stated above, clearly Yoda could have trained a "youngling" Obi-Wan; thus, no contradiction there.
Yes, but as stated above, youngling Anakin was not "angry." Only Malibu-teenager-Anakin displayed those qualities to the audience. Had Lucas made Jake Lloyd a little darker (personality, not skin tone), then maybe, just maybe, this would fly. But he didn't, and it doesn't. Full blown contradiction any way you slice it.


Originally posted by keith koth
To me the word "instructed" implies that Yoda taught Obi-Wan as part of a larger group (i.e., Bear Clan, etc.).
Maybe, maybe not. But either way, it doesn't impact the argument at all. The onus of "the Jedi who instructed me" is not on Obi Wan (the student). Rather, the onus is on Yoda (the instructor). The statement is in reference to the teacher, not the student. So what that means is that when Spirit Ben says, "...Yoda, the Jedi who instructed me," Obi Wan could very well have been in a large group. Doesn't matter. But that statement (as well as all the other OT statements supporting the argument) tell us that Obi only had ONE teacher, and that was Yoda.


Originally posted by keith koth
If it were a 1 on 1 relationship, then the proper word usage should have been "mentored".

Not necessarily. Mentor vs. Instructor? They are interchangable (at least according to Roget's Thesaurus). However, "a" and "the" are not. The statement was "the Jedi Master who instructed me," not "a Jedi Master who instructed me." But as I've mentioned before, it isn't just that one piece of information that supports the argument that the OT and the Prequels are contradictory. There are other supporting statements as well. :)



8 entries found for mentor.
Entry: mentor
Function: noun
Definition: adviser
Synonyms: coach, counsellor, guide, guru, instructor, teacher, trainer, tutor
Concept: education entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: advisor
Function: noun
Definition: guide
Synonyms: Dutch uncle, adviser, aide, attorney, authority, backseat driver, buttinski, clubhouse lawyer, coach, confidant, consultant, counsel, counselor, director, doctor, expert, friend, guide, helper, instructor, judge, kibitzer, lawyer, mentor, monitor, partner, priest, quarterback, referee, righthand man, second-guesser, teacher, tipster, tout, tutor
Concept: business person
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: coach
Function: noun
Definition: instructor
Synonyms: drillmaster, educator, mentor, old man, skipper, taskmaster, teacher, trainer, tutor
Antonyms: student, player, pupil
Concept: education entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: counselor
Function: noun
Definition: adviser
Synonyms: advisor, advocate, ambulance chaser, attorney, beagle, beak, bomber, counsel, fixer, front, guide, instructor, kibitzer, legal beagle, legal eagle, lip, mentor, mouthpiece, mugger, pleader, representative, shyster, solicitor, teacher, tongue, warble
Concept: law entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: guide
Function: noun
Definition: leader
Synonyms: adviser, american man, attendant, bird dog, captain, chaperon, cicerone, conductor, controller, convoy, counselor, criterion, design, director, docent, escort, example, exemplar, exhibitor, genie, genius, guiding spirit, guru, ideal, inspiration, lead, leader, lodestar, master, mentor, model, monitor, paradigm, pathfinder, pattern, pilot, pioneer, rudder, scout, standard, superintendent, teacher, usher, vanguard
Concept: guidance
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: instructor
Function: noun
Definition: educator
Synonyms: adviser, babysitter, coach, demonstrator, exponent, guide, lecturer, master, mentor, pedagogue, preceptor, prof, professor, schoolmaster, slave driver, teach, teacher, trainer, tutor
Concept: education entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: teacher
Function: noun
Definition: educator
Synonyms: abecedary, advisor, assistant, babysitter, coach, disciplinarian, docent, don, educator, faculty member, governess, grind, guide, guru, instructor, lecturer, maestro, master, mentor, mistress, pedagogue, preceptor, prof, professor, pundit, scholar, schoolman, schoolmaster, schoolmistress, schoolteacher, slave driver, supervisor, swami, teach, trainer, tutor
Concept: education entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: tutor
Function: noun
Definition: teacher
Synonyms: babysitter, coach, educator, governess, governor, grind, guardian, guide, guru, instructor, lecturer, master, mentor, preceptor, private teacher, prof, schoolmaster, slave driver, snap, teach, teacher
Concept: education entity
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.



And just for the record, I don't go looking for this kind of stuff. When it's this obvious, it's really hard to not notice. My own 7 year old son (at the time), after watching TPM, asked me (on his own) why Qui Gon was doing everything and Obi Wan was stuck on the ship. All I could do is shrug. George wrote it, not me. It's not my fault that it's all f'd up. Now all that's left to do is wait to see if he'll fix it in the Super Nifty DVD Edition. :)



PS: One more

Just another point on Obi Wan's statement that says, "...but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him." (ROTJ) Not once, nadda, zip, zippo, nilch, does Obi Wan ever see Anakin display his use of the Force in TPM which he would have had to have done prior to "deciding" to train him as a Jedi. The chronology as laid out by him in ROTJ says he "knew him" (already a great pilot, although Obi must have just heard this 2nd hand because here too, he never ever witnessed such a thing), he was "amazed at how strongly the Force was with him" (again, Obi never witnessed Ani using the Force so how could he know this?), and decided to train him as a Jedi. So Obi would have had to have seen Ani use the Force prior to the final scene in TPM when the discussion with Yoda takes place. But Obi didn't witness any such thing.

keith koth
04-03-2003, 03:09 PM
Isn't it funny how 2 people can see/read the same material, yet develop completely different interpretations of the material in question?!

My point of contention with your statements is...we all make grammatical mistakes in everyday life. Sometimes we over generlize our statements for simplicity. And many times we omit facts that we the "story teller" do not see as important while those that are listining to said story may consider the omited facts as crucial elements to the story as a whole.

If we do these things in everyday life, then one can logically come to the conclusion that the Star Wars characters are "burdened" with these same "flaws". I see no reason why the humans of the Star Wars galaxy would be (or should be) immune to grammatical mistakes, tendencies to over generalize, or omitting seemingly crucial facts. Besides, we already know that Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Liar....from a certain point of view!

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
If we do these things in everyday life, then one can logically come to the conclusion that the Star Wars characters are "burdened" with these same "flaws". I see no reason why the humans of the Star Wars galaxy would be (or should be) immune to grammatical mistakes, tendencies to over generalize, or omitting seemingly crucial facts.

And Kenobi is proven to be guilty of omitting parts of the story he deems unnecesary for Luke to know. He left out qui gon as it had no benefit to his goal of getting luke on board. Likewise, admitting right away that HE was the one who physically destroyed Anakin was omitted as it would have been downright detrimental to his objective.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Isn't it funny how 2 people can see/read the same material, yet develop completely different interpretations of the material in question?!
Yes, except that I'm not "interpreting" any of it. I'm taking everything onscreen at face value. Your own statement below is an admission that you are giving the characters leeway. Ergo, you're rationalizing the inconsistencies (wiggle room) in order to get the gears on the wheels to line up. I am not.


Originally posted by keith koth
My point of contention with your statements is...we all make grammatical mistakes in everyday life. Sometimes we over generlize our statements for simplicity. And many times we omit facts that we the "story teller" do not see as important while those that are listining to said story may consider the omited facts as crucial elements to the story as a whole.
Yes, we do, but a fictional story is supposed to go beyond that. The screenwriter has the difficult task of creating acceptably believable characters who are engaged in extraordinary circumstances. Every word in the script matters. Any words that do not directly contribute to advancing the story or the plot are wasteful and should be altered or excised. A cinematic movie is not "event coverage" meant to merely mirror our real world experiences. That's a job for the Nightly News. A filmmaker should be better than that. This is a world totally under his control, from the script to the screen.


Originally posted by keith koth
If we do these things in everyday life, then one can logically come to the conclusion that the Star Wars characters are "burdened" with these same "flaws". I see no reason why the humans of the Star Wars galaxy would be (or should be) immune to grammatical mistakes, tendencies to over generalize, or omitting seemingly crucial facts.
Why? These are fictional characters, not real people. Their foibles should contribute to the story that the writer wishes to tell. Their foibles should not intentionally or unintentionally inject confusion or contradiction into the storytelling process. If a character exhibits a quality so obvious like committing grammatical mistakes, for instance, that quality should have a specific purpose regarding the telling of the overall story. If it does not, then it is a waste of time and is potentially distracting at best, contradictory at worst. Again, a story is a universe that is entirely under the control of the writer and it is his responsibility to only include elements which specifically contribute to the story that he wishes to tell. All else is waste and potentially damaging.


Originally posted by keith koth
Besides, we already know that Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Liar....from a certain point of view!
No, he is not a "liar" at all. What he told Luke was absolutely true. In Obi Wan's eyes, Anakin died. The body lived on with a whole new personality, but Anakin was very dead and would never return. That's what he told Luke because that's what he absolutely believed. Even up until the end, in ROTJ, when Luke insists that there is a little bit of Anakin left alive in there, Spirit Ben resists the notion and still believes Anakin to be dead and gone. No, this was definitely not a "lie."



Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
And Kenobi is proven to be guilty of omitting parts of the story he deems unnecesary for Luke to know.
Um, I guess so, though the characterization that results from the word "guilty" is pretty harsh. It wasn't like he said what he said to be manipulative or mean. He told Luke that Anakin was dead because that's what he really believed.

So why cause Luke unnecessary angst by telling him that the body that used to have his father's personality in it is still running around the galaxy half-alive? Obi didn't believe that that body contained Anakin anymore so why mention it to a naive teenager who didn't yet have the background of knowledge about the politics and the Force to put it all into proper context?


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
He left out qui gon as it had no benefit to his goal of getting luke on board.
He left out Qui Gon because George Lucas hadn't invented him yet.

But beyond that, if we have to live with Qui Gon as an entity in this saga, then there is no reason why he wouldn't tell Luke about Qui Gon. In fact, if Obi Wan's entire purpose was to get Luke up and running as a Jedi as quickly as possible (to defeat the Emperor presumably), then using your logic of motive, why didn't Ben or Yoda tell Luke about the Midichlorians? Instead of using useless "spiritual" non-specific banter ("Stretch out with your feelings!"), wouldn't it have been far easier to just sit Luke down and say something like: "See, there are these things called Midichlorians in your blood. Everyone has them, but you have significantly more. These things are like a conduit to help us tap into the Force. Because you have more of them, it should be easier for you to interface with them and "feel" the Force."

Well, the obvious reason why Obi nor Yoda told Luke that is because, like Qui Gon, Midichlorians were invented sometime after ROTJ wrapped and the mid-1990's. But if we stay within the story, you can see that this idea that Obi Wan was simply manipulating Luke to get him to become a Jedi falls apart simply because he and Yoda failed to use every method available to them to teach Luke. With the galaxy in turmoil, and the Rebellion on it's last legs, throwing Luke a shortcut wouldn't be out of the question. But the ghost and the elf insist on taking Luke on the long scenic route to Jedi-hood.

So Ben's little talk with Luke on Tatooine was not simply a manipulative maneuver to get Luke to come along. It was also a show of compassion to spare Luke unnecessary negative emotion about his father.



Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Likewise, admitting right away that HE was the one who physically destroyed Anakin was omitted as it would have been downright detrimental to his objective.
But HE wasn't the one who destroyed Anakin. Palpatine did that through subtle manipulation and seduction, as we're seeing in AOTC. Presumably, by the time the infamous battle occurs in Episode III, Anakin is already all but gone.

But you bring up a good point about why Obi didn't fill Luke in on all the details. Primarily because that young inexperienced teenaged Luke wouldn't understand the complexities of what happened. Even if Ben didn't want Luke to go with him on the mission, it would have served no purpose to burden Luke with that kind of information...Luke wasn't yet privy to the complicated elements of the Force nor the politics that went down prior to his birth. In other words, young Luke had no context yet to put that kind of stuff into. Even Yoda says it in ROTJ, "Not ready for the burden were you..." Luke nods in agreement. That's precisely why Obi Wan didn't tell Luke all the nitty gritty details. Not out of manipulation or because he is a "filthy liar," but because he knew, as Luke eventually knew, that he couldn't handle it.

There are many parts to this discussion spanning across the five films. Not just one piece tells the story. All have to be considered to reach a final conclusion. It seems complicated, but it is actually quite simple. :)

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 04:57 PM
I'm gonna take a guess and say you aren't a fan of Hemingways "iceberg" theory ;)

So, why WOULD Ben tell luke about qui gon? He has absolutely no bearing on what luke needs to know. he certainly isn't more important than the revelation that Obi Wan fought his father and left him for dead. Ben tells luke what luke needs to know to draw him to the conclusion ben wants him to go....that is manipulation. It is possible to use manipulation for a noble end.

Same with the midichlorians. It isn't all that important that luke know the scince of the force. What he needs to know is how to tap into the force, hence the "stretch out with your feelings" line. Lets face it, a half hour dissertation on the workings of midichlorians wasn't going to help luke turn off the targeting computer and actually stretch his feelings out. The spiritual voice of ben was much more effective. Ben martyred himself, becoming more powerful that vader could possibly imagine by dying in front of luke and crystalizing the boys resolve to fight the empire, enabling luke to discover his destiny.

keith koth
04-03-2003, 05:14 PM
Stillakid,

You pack so much information into an single post that it gives me a headache just thinking about developing a rebuttle. Therefore, I respectfully yield the remainder of this discussion.

BTW, are you a Logic professor or something? I ask this because you are using all of the traditional devices that those skilled in "logic" arguments utilize in order to make people believe something false is actually true. You truly are a master of debate...but you still have not swayed my opinion...I just feel that there is no need to continue "beating a dead horse" so to speak.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Stillakid,

You pack so much information into an single post that it gives me a headache just thinking about developing a rebuttle. Therefore, I respectfully yield the remainder of this discussion.
Some proofs cannot be done in a soundbite. Most of the rebuttals against my position on this are generally sound bites themselves. For example, somebody yanks out one statement from one of the films as a dis-proof while ignoring other pertinent information. It is extremely important to see EVERYTHING simultaneously otherwise you'll wind up with a faulty conclusion. So sorry about the length of the posts, but it is necessary to show where I'm coming from. :)


Originally posted by keith koth
BTW, are you a Logic professor or something? I ask this because you are using all of the traditional devices that those skilled in "logic" arguments utilize in order to make people believe something false is actually true. You truly are a master of debate...but you still have not swayed my opinion...I just feel that there is no need to continue "beating a dead horse" so to speak.
No, I'm not a professor at all, but thanks! :) But all my arguments are entirely correct. Not a false statement among them. I've been told that I have a knack for seeing the big picture better than most, and I think that I'm displaying that here despite a "fan" tendency to want to reject the ideas for fear of downgrading the integrity of the saga. It's not my intention to "ruin" it for anyone. I promise you that I'm not making any of my "arguments" up. These elements I bring into the discussion exist on their own and are available for viewing by anyone. These problems have been discussed here previously and I have yet to see any rebuttal that sufficiently disproves my conclusions.

I'm the last one who wanted to see problems with the Prequels. In fact, I currently work in the film industry because of Star Wars. It has been a major influence in my life. So you can imagine my dismay when I sat watching the train wreck that was Episode I. After all those years we had so much to look forward to and that's what he gave us. So now, I like to figure out just what went wrong so that in the event I achieve my own goal of producing/directing, I won't repeat the mistakes of my first film influence, George Lucas.

:)

keith koth
04-04-2003, 08:53 AM
Stillakid,

I know exactly what you mean about "seeing everything simultaneously". Actually, I enjoy reading your posts and the length is not a problem. Yesterday was a long day and it was giving me a headache trying to rebutt your statements...mainly because I have run out of "ammunition" on this particular topic.

However, you know what they say..."it ain't over 'till the fat lady sings". I'm gonna have to "reload" my mind and get back to this discussion later. :)

Kidhuman
04-05-2003, 03:27 PM
MAn, at least we can say that there definitely are errors in the 2 trilogies. I was watching ESB the other day and noticed alot of what Stillakid was saying. They clearly say that Yoda trained Obi-Wan. He didn't seem wreckless at the time of AOTC. And he was trained by Qui-Gon, unless Yoda trained him after Qui-Gon died or before TPM.

I thought at the end of TPM the council gave Obi-Wan permission to train Anakin. Could be wrong, but I will have to rewatch it. I don't think Obi took it upon himself.

TheDarthVader
04-07-2003, 03:24 PM
It is in ep1 where yoda says something like "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you." Obi-Wan says "I will train the boy with or without the permission of the council if I must." Then Yoda gives him permission to do it although he does not agree.

Kidhuman
04-07-2003, 05:54 PM
Thanks TDV. I was almost positive that Yoda did grant permission. I wasn't sure if it was before or after the fact of Obi-Wan saying that.

TheDarthVader
04-08-2003, 01:36 PM
No problem. It was definately after he says that. Yoda may have said the line about qui gon's defiance after kenobi says he will train the boy with or without permission of the council...but yes, he does grant permission after kenobi says the line about training the boy. ;)

stillakid
04-08-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
No problem. It was definately after he says that. Yoda may have said the line about qui gon's defiance after kenobi says he will train the boy with or without permission of the council...but yes, he does grant permission after kenobi says the line about training the boy. ;)

The "dumb" part of that scene was that when Yoda pauses to consider it, his next line states that "the council" will allow it. What? Does he have mental telepathy with the "council" which enables him to conference call whenever a vote has to be taken? Or does Yoda just take it upon himself to speak for the council then send out a memo letting everyone else know what he decided in their name?

Maybe when Yoda referred to the arrogance of some Jedi earlier in the film, he was referring to himself.:sur:

The Overlord Returns
04-08-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

Maybe when Yoda referred to the arrogance of some Jedi earlier in the film, he was referring to himself.:sur:

I assume you mean the scene in AOTC? I always felt that Yoda was refering to the Jedi Council, including himself.

stillakid
04-09-2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I assume you mean the scene in AOTC? I always felt that Yoda was refering to the Jedi Council, including himself.

Hmm, interesting. I always heard that as a slam against Obi Wan himself, relative to Old Ben's own statement later on in the OT when he says to Luke, "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

keith koth
04-09-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
The "dumb" part of that scene was that when Yoda pauses to consider it, his next line states that "the council" will allow it. What? Does he have mental telepathy with the "council" which enables him to conference call whenever a vote has to be taken? Or does Yoda just take it upon himself to speak for the council then send out a memo letting everyone else know what he decided in their name?

Maybe when Yoda referred to the arrogance of some Jedi earlier in the film, he was referring to himself.:sur:

I don't think that Yoda was pausing to consider it. I always believed that his pause was a moment of hesitation, because he was going to have to say something he so desperately did not want to say. However, Yoda had to say it because the majority of the Jedi Council sided against him on the issue.

TheDarthVader
04-09-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by keith koth
However, Yoda had to say it because the majority of the Jedi Council sided against him on the issue.

Just curious, do we have evidence of this??

keith koth
04-09-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
Just curious, do we have evidence of this??

No, but there is no evidence that Yoda used mental telepathy to communicate with the rest of the council either.

Clearly, Yoda did not want Anakin to be trained as a Jedi, so the council must have voted on the issue. It wouldn't make sense to allow the minority of the council to make a decision on the matter. So, assuming that the decision to allow Anakin to be trained was based upon a majority decision, then I guess that would be "implied" evidence.

darthvyn
04-09-2003, 12:22 PM
yeah, i always felt that he was just meeting with obi-wan to tell him what the coucil had already decided, not that it wasn't decided yet... it seemed to me that yoda was just relaying the message from the council, and his disapproval was what caused the hesitation...

he also at that time confers the title of jedi knight on obi-wan, denoting that the council had already ruled on these matters...

keith koth
04-09-2003, 02:41 PM
exactly!

TheDarthVader
04-09-2003, 08:03 PM
Okay...that makes sense.

Pendo
04-10-2003, 02:38 AM
I always thought Yoda agreed to allow Anakin to be trained because he knew Obi-Wan would do it anyway, through loyalty to his former master. The Council are bound to have discussed the matter further but I don't think they agreed for him to be trained. Yoda made the final decission so the council can watch Anakin's progress, if Obi-Wan was doing it on his own then anything could have happened.

PENDO!

TheDarthVader
04-10-2003, 10:25 PM
I can see where both arguments could be made. However, wouldn't Yoda have the power to make Kenobi a knight just because he defeated a sith lord in combat?? This alone, allows him to be a knight. It does not need discussion from within the council. And so, like Pendo said, Yoda could have agreed to let Kenobi train Anakin (using his power=head of the council...most powerful member of the council) so that they could "keep on eye on him." When the president of the United States wants to make some decisions, those decisions do not need discussions. Just a thought. :)

darthvyn
04-10-2003, 11:59 PM
"confer on you the level of jedi knight the council does... but agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner i do not..."

"qui-gon believes in him..."

(yoda pauses)

"the chosen one he may be... never the less, grave danger i fear in his training."

"master yoda, i gave qui-gon my word. i will train anakin... without the approval of the council, if i must."

"qui-gon's defience i sense in you. need that, you do not. (deep breath...) agree with you the council does - your apprentice, skywalker will be..."

stillakid
04-11-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
"confer on you the level of jedi knight the council does... but agree with your taking this boy as your padawan learner i do not..."

"qui-gon believes in him..."

(yoda pauses)

"the chosen one he may be... never the less, grave danger i fear in his training."

"master yoda, i gave qui-gon my word. i will train anakin... without the approval of the council, if i must."

"qui-gon's defience i sense in you. need that, you do not. (deep breath...) agree with you the council does - your apprentice, skywalker will be..."

That sounds an awful lot like Yoda taking that decision making process upon himself, though I can see how it could be interpreted the other way. I don't agree with it, but I see it. :)

The Overlord Returns
04-11-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Hmm, interesting. I always heard that as a slam against Obi Wan himself, relative to Old Ben's own statement later on in the OT when he says to Luke, "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

That is a possibility, but I doubt Yoda was refering to Obi Wan as an older, more experienced Jedi. At first I thought it was a dig at Windu.......but then if you look at it in the context of the scene in Palpatines office, where the jedi are all so sure they are right about who attacked padme, yoda has some strange looks on his face.......as if he knows they are wrong.

darthvyn
04-11-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
That sounds an awful lot like Yoda taking that decision making process upon himself, though I can see how it could be interpreted the other way. I don't agree with it, but I see it. :)

well, you can interpret it any way you want, but i'm gonna go with what he actually says... and he says "...the council does" twice...

why is it so much more believable that yoda is making this decision on his own without the help of the coucil, as opposed to the possibility that he is just informing obi-wan of the decisions the council has already agreed upon? his demeanor throughout the movie and that scene in particular is of disapproval - he DOESN'T want the boy trained. i don't see any motives for him to decide all this without the council's approval, and in fact, it goes against character for him... but, then again, that's probably just what you are trying to get at, as you will take any opportunity to detract from the prequels...

anyway, if you take what yoda says at face value here, then there's no question - the council ruled on these matters, and he's letting obi-wan know.

stillakid
04-12-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
well, you can interpret it any way you want, but i'm gonna go with what he actually says... and he says "...the council does" twice...

why is it so much more believable that yoda is making this decision on his own without the help of the coucil, as opposed to the possibility that he is just informing obi-wan of the decisions the council has already agreed upon? his demeanor throughout the movie and that scene in particular is of disapproval - he DOESN'T want the boy trained. i don't see any motives for him to decide all this without the council's approval, and in fact, it goes against character for him... but, then again, that's probably just what you are trying to get at, as you will take any opportunity to detract from the prequels...

anyway, if you take what yoda says at face value here, then there's no question - the council ruled on these matters, and he's letting obi-wan know.

Okay, but if you interpret it this way, then you're introducing the possibility that Yoda was actually trying to dissuade Obi Wan from his proposal after the council already voted on it. While that would be befitting of his current attitude toward the proposed training, Yoda himself would be trying to undermine the already stated wishes (as you suggest) of the Council. I'm not saying that you're wrong, however it introduces a whole new rebellious side of Yoda that has no precendent in any of the five films.

Comments?

darthvyn
04-12-2003, 11:06 AM
well, the council ruled that anakin COULD be trained by obi-wan, not that he HAD to be... yoda senses a great danger down the road in anakin's training, and is trying to talk obi-wan out of the decision, or at least give him an accurate depiction of how hard the task will be. i don't think he's rebelling, but maybe he is trying to undermine the decision of the council, which could've been influenced by the death of qui-gon, i.e. his dying wish that obi-wan train anakin. it's obvious that yoda doesn't agree with the council, so by that logic it doesn't make sense that he would make the decision TO train anakin without the rest of the council present. i think the council caved in because of the circumstances around qui-gon's death, and the now obvious return of the sith - they need all the jedi they can get, and this one might be the "chosen one" so that's good, right? (in their minds... ;) )

stillakid
04-12-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
well, the council ruled that anakin COULD be trained by obi-wan, not that he HAD to be... yoda senses a great danger down the road in anakin's training, and is trying to talk obi-wan out of the decision, or at least give him an accurate depiction of how hard the task will be. i don't think he's rebelling, but maybe he is trying to undermine the decision of the council, which could've been influenced by the death of qui-gon, i.e. his dying wish that obi-wan train anakin. it's obvious that yoda doesn't agree with the council, so by that logic it doesn't make sense that he would make the decision TO train anakin without the rest of the council present. i think the council caved in because of the circumstances around qui-gon's death, and the now obvious return of the sith - they need all the jedi they can get, and this one might be the "chosen one" so that's good, right? (in their minds... ;) )

That entire argument depends upon the validity of your opening statement, that anakin COULD be trained, not that he HAD to be. But I see nothing in the dialogue to support that idea. If the council makes a ruling on an issue, one probably should assume that it is a final word on it, not to be undermined by one of the dissenting votes. Think of it this way: of course we have no idea how the decision making process actually went, but if there was an actual vote, we could easily hypothosize that all but one vote was cast in favor of allowing the training. The dissenting vote being from Yoda. What right does the little green goblin have to usurp the council's decision just because he happens to be the one debriefing Kenobi after all the excitement has died down?

TheDarthVader
04-13-2003, 06:12 PM
Good comments Stillakid and darthvyn!! I am enjoying your discussion. :)

darthvyn
04-16-2003, 11:21 AM
thanks TDV... :) i'm enjoying, it too...

okay, so if after the decision by the council obi-wan MUST train anakin, then yoda's words have no bearing on anything, as it is decreed and can't be changed. in this instance, perhaps all yoda is doing is giving obi-wan a stern warning to be careful with the undertaking he has chosen - "grave danger i fear in his training..." he's kinda saying "i'll be watching you, don't screw up... you know i don't agree with this..." it's like when you're grown up and your parents don't agree with a certain choice you made, but they really have no power to tell you "no" - all they can do is voice their disapproval, and hope things turn out for the best... granted, as part of the council, yoda has more power than that, but not much without the consenting voices of the other council memebers. maybe he's just trying to convey the gravity of the situtation to obi-wan...

stillakid
04-16-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
thanks TDV... :) i'm enjoying, it too...

okay, so if after the decision by the council obi-wan MUST train anakin, then yoda's words have no bearing on anything, as it is decreed and can't be changed. in this instance, perhaps all yoda is doing is giving obi-wan a stern warning to be careful with the undertaking he has chosen - "grave danger i fear in his training..." he's kinda saying "i'll be watching you, don't screw up... you know i don't agree with this..." it's like when you're grown up and your parents don't agree with a certain choice you made, but they really have no power to tell you "no" - all they can do is voice their disapproval, and hope things turn out for the best... granted, as part of the council, yoda has more power than that, but not much without the consenting voices of the other council memebers. maybe he's just trying to convey the gravity of the situtation to obi-wan...

Perhaps, but the order of how the statements in that exchange were presented suggests something very different. Yoda didn't first say, "The council has voted and has agreed that you will train Anakin," and then say, "but I want to let you know that I still disagree and will be watching you like a hawk." Instead, if we are to believe that Yoda is representing the council, he first makes an attempt to derail Obi Wan's desire and the Council's vote. Once it is clear that he can do neither, he then relents and comes forward with the truth to Obi Wan. This is painting a very disturbing picture of Yoda if we go that route.

The same of course can be said of my own theory in that Yoda is acting alone and decides for the council and will inform them later on about the Anakin issue. Either way, Yoda is heading down the path of being a rogue. Where does he get off telling everyone else that they are arrogant? ;)

TheDarthVader
04-16-2003, 05:18 PM
Stillakid, your statements brought an idea into my head.
Yoda knows (in his heart or whatever) that the council will agree to let Obi-Wan train Anakin. So...(you are right IMO) he tries to derail Kenobi into saying "okay, I won't train him." Then yoda could tell the council that Anakin has no "trainer". Because most of the other jedi have padawans already...thus perhaps preventing anakin from being trained as a jedi ("he is too old"--Yoda). I don't know...just a thought! ;)

jeffonthego
04-25-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
IF Qui Gon is really a good guy, then his appearance will be nothing short of a warning to Anakin, who will then proceed to ignore the spirit. This option would stay consistent with Lucas's previous precedent of mirroring classic mythology by having the hero be visited by an otherworldly spirit being in a time of need.


Yep, just as an old Obi Wan came back to guide Luke, Qui Gon will summon his powers to 'cross over' at Anakin's moment of greatest need. He will return to warn Anakin of the path to the dark side that he is on, but Anakin will rationalise his actions and carry on.

AOTC has shown that Anakin already thinks himself further ahead of Obi Wan and Palpatine is feeding him his ego that he will be stronger than Yoda. So the only person that he might listen to at his moment of truth will be his old master to whom he owes the opportunity he received.

He will be momentarily torn, but then the overriding feeling that he knows best - prodded along by Palpatine - will take over and he will cross over to the dark side, though well intentioned in his desire to restore order to the universe - by force if necessary.

stillakid
04-25-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by jeffonthego
Yep, just as an old Obi Wan came back to guide Luke, Qui Gon will summon his powers to 'cross over' at Anakin's moment of greatest need. He will return to warn Anakin of the path to the dark side that he is on, but Anakin will rationalise his actions and carry on.

AOTC has shown that Anakin already thinks himself further ahead of Obi Wan and Palpatine is feeding him his ego that he will be stronger than Yoda. So the only person that he might listen to at his moment of truth will be his old master to whom he owes the opportunity he received.

He will be momentarily torn, but then the overriding feeling that he knows best - prodded along by Palpatine - will take over and he will cross over to the dark side, though well intentioned in his desire to restore order to the universe - by force if necessary.

Yes, what he said. :D

Of course, the other precedent that George set is that he'll manage to F this up. So the description above will never see the light of day even though it's the only LOGICAL path for him to go at this point.