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View Full Version : Will we see Vader without the Suit???



princethomas
11-14-2001, 05:07 PM
I had always imagined that Anakin became Vader before he gets all messed up physically. Was really excited by the idea of seeing Vader in a Darth Maul like cloak, being all bad *** before he gets the big suit on.

bigbarada
11-14-2001, 05:25 PM
God I hope not. I think his disfigurment is the catalyst that turns him to the Dark Side. Remember Obi-Wan said that he went into the lava pit Anakin Skywalker and emerged as Darth Vader. Not literally but in a figurative sense. I do believe that we might see a less armored version of Vader, something similar to the ANH concept sketches of him before Lucas decided to have him fully armored.

LTBasker
11-14-2001, 06:10 PM
That pic makes Anakin look like Shredder from Ninja Turtles. ;) I think Anakin will have very black robes and such much like Luke's from ROTJ but be even more evil and at the end of Episode III he'll get really injured and the Emperor will make him what we've always known as Vader. ;) Could happen at the end of EII or something. *shrugs*

Rollo Tomassi
11-14-2001, 09:53 PM
I agree with bigbarada...goes in Anakin, comes out Vader. He has to give fully into the hatred to keep himself alive while he's in the molten pit. It's thousands of degrees for petes sake. He's gotta use the force to keep himself alive. That hatred forges him metaphorically into Vader.

Co Jo-Da
11-15-2001, 12:55 AM
We won't see Darth Vader or hear the name until Episode III.

GNT
11-15-2001, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by LTBasker
That pic makes Anakin look like Shredder from Ninja Turtles. ;)

I guess thats a common thing with Star Wars now,first Zam Wesell now Vader....

Tycho
11-15-2001, 07:16 AM
I thought this was the spoiler section.

Geeze. Darth Vader is not in Episode 2 (by name or black armor).

Meanwhile, I wonder how we're going to see this whole transition work out in the whole 6 episode saga.

It will no longer be a surprise in ESB when Vader tells Luke he is his father.

One possibility is that we will never see Anakin make the Vader uniform. "Anakin" will die, just like Obi-Wan told Luke he did. Amazingly enough (and I don't know how they'll pull this off if E3 takes place over the course of one week in their lives, like the other movies do) Vader will appear in the end of Episode 3, as Palpatine's new Sith Lord.

It will NEVER be shown that Anakin builds the Vader suit and it's him within it. Hayden might not even get to play the role (of Vader).


This is one possibility. Then one day our grandkids, watching the movies in order of 1-6 will go "wow" in Episode 5 when Vader says who he really is.


Yes, this is disappointing to those of us (myself included) who are curious to see it. To see how he survives whatever happens to him. And to see him fashion Darth Vader's early look.

However, George might feel that is the right way to go, or he might feel it will spoil Empire Strikes Back. Remember that in his overall creation, "ESB is also part of Episode 3."


What do you guys think? ESB fans, especially speak up.

Rollo Tomassi
11-15-2001, 10:22 AM
Well, padme will have Anakin's twins, so when Luke shows up in ANH, we know he is the son of Anakin and Padme.

It will be a huge coincidence when Anakin "dies" and Vader shows up at the end. 'Oh, these are two separate characters? I had no idea..."

We'll know Ben is lying when he tells Luke that Vader killed Anakin (because we saw Obi Wan drop him into the fire).

It's too much to leave ambiguous in episode III just to have that shocker in V. I think it will just be a shocker to Luke and not the audience from now on...

So my conclusion is we'll see Anakin transform to Vader and know he's Luke's dad throughout the OT (like we do now...)

princethomas
11-15-2001, 11:40 AM
Ok, these are great discussions. I ve heard all about all of this volcano stuff. I havent read books. I dont know where that comes from, so I cant attest to that. Dont make your guesses and theories based on that though. GL can change any of it at any time. Im not saying that the OBI WAN v Anakin volcano incident wont happen. Im sure it will. But understand that its only what is on film that counts, and GL can change it around quite a bit as far as what is going to happen to Anakin.

I like the idea that the audience might be lead to believe Anakin dies. Thus preserving the ESB surprise. The fact that Lukes last name is the same as Anakins ought to be proof enough that they are related. But what Ben said was Vader betrayed and murdered your father. Which leads me to believe that Anakin will become vader before the inciting suit incident. I figured Vader would kill all the Jedi as a regular man and then Obi-wan will be the last on his list, and then Obi will beat and maim Vader so badly that he has to put on the suit to survive. We will see I guess

T

LTBasker
11-15-2001, 12:04 PM
A Jedi can not Love, and yet Luke & Mara are together in the NJO books. I think it's been said that if it's non in the movies, then it ain't Lucas-true unless he says so. Ok, with that out of the way.

Obi-Wan could've been talking about Anakin's "dark side" as Vader, it'd make sense...unless of course he had an out of body experiance. :D

bigbarada
11-15-2001, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
It's too much to leave ambiguous in episode III just to have that shocker in V. I think it will just be a shocker to Luke and not the audience from now on...


It's a literary device called 'dramatic irony' meaning that the audience knows what's going on but the characters in the story have no clue. It's been used in many great works of literature including the Shakespearian plays Oedipus and Romeo & Juliet.

This is not to say thay GL will definitely use this, he might try to preserve the surprise for ESB, we'll just have to wait and see.

Tycho
11-16-2001, 11:47 AM
You can debate whatever you want about books and cannon, but it doesn't matter either way for New Jedi Order, I thought I'd point out.

The Jedi Master Luke Skywalker doesn't know all the old Jedi traditions, and also doesn't have to agree with them. He is the master now. Also, his sister went and had 3 kids, his father turned to the Dark Side, so they're all a bunch of hippocrites if he says "it's going to be that way" again. But this belongs debated in the comics and books section. Let's stick to Episode 2 here.

One last time: even if the books "really are cannon," it's a different era, and Luke can suggest the Jedi of his time cherrish or disregard any traditions he wants. Remember, if Luke gets killed (and he might) Kyp Durron will remake the Jedi Order in his own mold. Durron is a Master now, and would set the Jedi on a very different, darker course.

So until it may be proven to be a bad idea again (as I'd guess it once was), Jedi are allowed to marry and have children in "Corran Horn's era." Shoot...one more point - if you want to know why the old school had these rules - recall that perhaps even related Force-sensitive children both taken to the Jedi Temple wouldn't know they are actually siblings themselves, to protect them from too intense of emotions. Watch what happens to Jaina Solo in the novels now, after her brother is killed!

Vima Da Boda in Dark Empire turned to the Dark Side at one point, when she reacted to the consequences of an affair, a long time ago, when she was but a young girl. There are consequences of relationships to which a still naive (in some ways) Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master or not, has not yet been exposed to.

Now back to Episode 2....

stillakid
11-16-2001, 12:06 PM
God help us. The "foreshadowing" is bad enough in the TPM, but to give the secret of Vader's identity away in the first 3 films outright would be a travesty. Suddenly Vader's cliffhanger revelation in ESB and Yoda's and Ben's confessions in ROTJ lose 110% of their steam.

It is entirely possible to write this series so that it looks like Anakin is killed in Ep 3. Doing that would encourage the Emperor to look for a new trainee and the likely candidate would be Anakin's offspring. Knowing that, Obi Wan would (as stated in the original trilogy) hide Anakin's kids. With that setup, we'd enter Episode IV in a new generation, with some strange guy in black terrorizing everyone and a new group of heroes who we really know nothing about. All the surprises would be left intact.

I've read in a variety of places of people who want to SEE some lame-*** montage sequence of Anakin "turning into" Vader or something, I don't know what they're smoking but they haven't thought about the big picture at all.

I wouldn't put that past GL though. He seems to enjoy ramming story points down our throats lately.:frus:

Co Jo-Da
11-16-2001, 12:21 PM
Darth Vader will not exist until Episode III, AotC looks so very cool from here and is only getting better. I think that we won't see Vader till Episode III and it will be before his dual with Obi-Wan...Before he is horribly burned or injuried...

stillakid
11-16-2001, 01:59 PM
It seems unlikely that anyone could know information like that at this point so to say it so definitively is silly and the conjecture itself is ridiculous.

2-1B
03-01-2008, 02:48 PM
good call on the pre-burned Vader name, Co Jo-Da. :thumbsup:

JediTricks
03-02-2008, 03:11 AM
I've read in a variety of places of people who want to SEE some lame-*** montage sequence of Anakin "turning into" Vader or something, I don't know what they're smoking but they haven't thought about the big picture at all.

I wouldn't put that past GL though. He seems to enjoy ramming story points down our throats lately.:frus:Dude, 3 years before it came out and you called it to a T! A flavorless, emotionless, meaningless, hollow series of events which basically played out as a messy Vader montage sequence is precisely what we got thanks to Lucas' incompetence.

stillakid
03-02-2008, 10:49 AM
Call me Kidstrodamus. :smoker:


Quick review of what we DID get:


Anakin screams out to Mace Windu, "NO, I need him!"

As Mace unnecessarily raises his lightsaber as if it is a superheavy broadsword that requires momentum to do its work, Anakin lops off the Tinky Winky Jedi's arm to stop him from killing Palpatine.... Palpatine, who just a scene earlier admitted that he was a Sith and Anakin went to report him to the local beat cops as the bad guy.

A moment after Mace falls into the Fifth Element type haze, Anakin utters "What have I done?" and drops to his knees. A now suddenly overacting Palpatine drags his bad prosthetic butt over to the kid. Anakin suddenly "pledges" himself to the bad guy for one reason: to gain the secret to saving Padme from dying in childbirth. Palpatine's response to that is: "Well, I don't know what it is, but if we put our heads together, I'm sure we can figure it out for you."

Hmm. It's then that Palpatine pulls the name "Vader" out of thin air (or his a@@) as if it has anything at all to do with anything Anakin has just said.

So at that point, we presumably have our Darth Vader walking around sans evil costume. He goes on a killing spree, including Padme too, which is ironic because the only reason he went bad-guy was to SAVE her from death. Wha-huh?! :cross-eye

Obi Kenobi shows up, NOT believing that there is good in him (in contradiction to what he said years later in ROTJ) and eventually lops off most of Anakin's limbs.

Palpatine zips across the galaxy before his Darth Vader dies and just happens to have a custom fitting evil looking life support suit just waiting around for a body to fill it. This montage is supposed to mirror the "birth" of the twins. Interestingly enough, Padme seems to get the names Luke and Leia from the same place that Palpatine got the name Vader. Even after giving birth, she somehow has nothing to live for and dies. Over there, Vader (not quite fitting the costume) pitches a hissy fit like a bipolar juvenile which excites legions of superficial fanboys worldwide who just had to have that "fix" of seeing the Vader suit in a prequel movie even though it was hokey to the max and made absolutely no sense in terms of story.

But, hey, Hayden got to wear the mask and that's what's really important. :thumbsup:

Mad Slanted Powers
03-22-2008, 02:35 PM
Call me Kidstrodamus. :smoker:


Quick review of what we DID get:


Anakin screams out to Mace Windu, "NO, I need him!"

As Mace unnecessarily raises his lightsaber as if it is a superheavy broadsword that requires momentum to do its work, Anakin lops off the Tinky Winky Jedi's arm to stop him from killing Palpatine.... Palpatine, who just a scene earlier admitted that he was a Sith and Anakin went to report him to the local beat cops as the bad guy.

A moment after Mace falls into the Fifth Element type haze, Anakin utters "What have I done?" and drops to his knees. A now suddenly overacting Palpatine drags his bad prosthetic butt over to the kid. Anakin suddenly "pledges" himself to the bad guy for one reason: to gain the secret to saving Padme from dying in childbirth. Palpatine's response to that is: "Well, I don't know what it is, but if we put our heads together, I'm sure we can figure it out for you."I'll admit that this didn't make a whole lot of sense when I first watched it, but you have to look at the bigger picture as you say. It had been established in AOTC and earlier in ROTS how Palpatine was a mentor, and how Anakin was beginning to distrust the Jedi. He had a lot of conflict within, as evidenced by what he told Padmé: "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more but I know I shouldn't." When he learns that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, he tried to do the right thing by turning him in. Mace still doesn't trust him though, and when Anakin finally shows up, he sees what Palpatine wants him to see - Mace trying to assassinate the Chancellor and the Jedi trying to take control. Once Anakin does intervene and Palpatine finishes off Mace, he realizes he might have made a mistake. It's hard to say what is going through his mind, but all his dialogue from that point on seems to indicate that he has convinced himself that the Jedi were in the wrong. While he does pledge himself to Palpatine, he looks very uncomfortable doing it, and he later tells Padmé that he can overthrow him. He just needs the time and opportunity to do it.


So at that point, we presumably have our Darth Vader walking around sans evil costume. He goes on a killing spree, including Padme too, which is ironic because the only reason he went bad-guy was to SAVE her from death. Wha-huh?! :cross-eyeHe didn't kill her. He thought she was still alive. The medical droids said there was nothing wrong with her.


Obi Kenobi shows up, NOT believing that there is good in him (in contradiction to what he said years later in ROTJ) and eventually lops off most of Anakin's limbs.He had enough feelings for him still that he didn't even want to go confront Anakin. He tried to reason with him before the fought. He even tried to warn Anakin not to make that final leap that cost him his limbs.


Palpatine zips across the galaxy before his Darth Vader dies and just happens to have a custom fitting evil looking life support suit just waiting around for a body to fill it. How do we know that the technology for the suit doesn't already exist? We see lots of people like the Fetts and the clones wearing armor and helmets. Zuckuss and other aliens have some sort of apparatus to help them breathe in atmospheres they normally wouldn't be able to. Grievous wasn't always a cyborg either. The medical team would be scrambling to find or create whatever they needed in order to keep him alive.


TInterestingly enough, Padme seems to get the names Luke and Leia from the same place that Palpatine got the name Vader. Even after giving birth, she somehow has nothing to live for and dies. Over there, Vader (not quite fitting the costume) pitches a hissy fit like a bipolar juvenile which excites legions of superficial fanboys worldwide who just had to have that "fix" of seeing the Vader suit in a prequel movie even though it was hokey to the max and made absolutely no sense in terms of story.People usually think of baby names before they give birth. Once she knew the gender of the babies, she was able to name them. Why wouldn't Vader be angry when he found out Padmé died? As you pointed out, she was the reason he did all this.

stillakid
03-23-2008, 12:43 PM
I'll admit that this didn't make a whole lot of sense when I first watched it, but you have to look at the bigger picture as you say. It had been established in AOTC and earlier in ROTS how Palpatine was a mentor, and how Anakin was beginning to distrust the Jedi.
No. That's not it at all. Anakin didn't distrust the Jedi for anything rational. He was merely unhappy because he thought he deserved to be on the Council and was being a brat toward Obi Wan for "holding him back." There was no real "distrust" of the Jedi or their motives for protecting the Republic. I'm not at all sure where you came up with that conclusion.


He had a lot of conflict within, as evidenced by what he told Padmé: "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more but I know I shouldn't." When he learns that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, he tried to do the right thing by turning him in. Mace still doesn't trust him though, and when Anakin finally shows up, he sees what Palpatine wants him to see - Mace trying to assassinate the Chancellor and the Jedi trying to take control. Once Anakin does intervene and Palpatine finishes off Mace, he realizes he might have made a mistake. It's hard to say what is going through his mind, but all his dialogue from that point on seems to indicate that he has convinced himself that the Jedi were in the wrong. While he does pledge himself to Palpatine, he looks very uncomfortable doing it, and he later tells Padmé that he can overthrow him. He just needs the time and opportunity to do it.

Wow, that is SO not what happens on screen. Look at the facts: Anakin has a wetdream nightmare that Padme will die in childbirth. Palpatine teases Anakin with some dark secret that will save her. Anakin learns that Palpatine is the Sith Lord and willingly turns him in. Mace and Co. go over to arrest/stop/kill Palpatine for being a Sith Lord who is subverting the government and Anakin knows this. Anakin goes to stop Mace from killing Palpatine because of that secret to saving life that he needs to save Padme. So Anakin knows that the Jedi are NOT trying to overthrow the government but instead the Jedi are trying to get it back from the evil one.

Your conclusions are so off base I can't imagine how you'd arrive at them. :confused:



He didn't kill her. He thought she was still alive. The medical droids said there was nothing wrong with her. It isn't the reason for her death that's in question. It is that fact that he tried to kill her. It's ironic and stupid because the ENTIRE reason he killed Mace, pledged his loyalty to Palpatine, killed younglings and went to the Dark Side was to save Padme from death. Then he chokes her. I'll say it again: Wha? huh?! :confused:


He had enough feelings for him still that he didn't even want to go confront Anakin. He tried to reason with him before the fought. He even tried to warn Anakin not to make that final leap that cost him his limbs.
No, Obi didn't want to fight, but he also didn't illustrate that he thought there was any good left in him either, per ROTJ. The pre-fight reasoning was centered around the issues of Palpatine and the government, not about Anakin being good or something of the sort. The warning at the end also had nothing to do with Obi believing there to be good in the boy. It was merely a warning that he wouldn't win.



How do we know that the technology for the suit doesn't already exist? We see lots of people like the Fetts and the clones wearing armor and helmets. Zuckuss and other aliens have some sort of apparatus to help them breathe in atmospheres they normally wouldn't be able to. Grievous wasn't always a cyborg either. The medical team would be scrambling to find or create whatever they needed in order to keep him alive.
I never suggested that the technology didn't exist. Obviously it did. The question is in regard to having a complete unique custom evil looking life support system just standing by. There are no other suits like it that we ever see.



People usually think of baby names before they give birth. Once she knew the gender of the babies, she was able to name them. .
A little too quickly and conveniently the way it played on screen. Very much like Palpatine pulling the Vader name out of thin air.


Why wouldn't Vader be angry when he found out Padmé died? As you pointed out, she was the reason he did all this. . Of course he'd be angry, but then again, he's the one who A) choked her and B) "broke her heart." And while we're at it, why didn't Anakin/Vader turn at that moment to Palpatine and ask about that secret to bringing back the dead? THAT was the entire motivation for going bad, but it is completely forgotten and ignored at the end. Palps is forgiven for not having the formula and saving the girl and Vader just goes on to be a bad guy for no apparent reason.

None of it makes any logical sense.

Mad Slanted Powers
03-23-2008, 02:01 PM
No. That's not it at all. Anakin didn't distrust the Jedi for anything rational. He was merely unhappy because he thought he deserved to be on the Council and was being a brat toward Obi Wan for "holding him back." There was no real "distrust" of the Jedi or their motives for protecting the Republic. I'm not at all sure where you came up with that conclusion.The evidence is right there on screen:


OBI-WAN: Yes, but use your feelings, Anakin. Something is out of place.

ANAKIN: You're asking me to do something against the Jedi Code. Against the Republic. Against a mentor . . . and a friend. That's what's out of place here. Why are you asking this of me?

OBI-WAN: The Council is asking you.


PALPATINE: You must sense what I have come to suspect . . . the Jedi Council want control of the Republic . . . they're planning to betray me.

ANAKIN: I don't think . . .

PALPATINE: Anakin, search your feelings. You know, don't you?

ANAKIN: I know they don't trust you . . .

PALPATINE: Or the Senate . . . or the Republic . . . or democracy for that matter.

ANAKIN: I have to admit my trust in them has been shaken.

and just before Palpatine reveals himself:


PALPATINE: It is upsetting to me to see that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents. Don't you wonder why they won't make you a Jedi Master?

ANAKIN: I wish I knew. More and more I get the feeling that I am being excluded from the Council. I know there are things about the Force that they are not telling me.



So Anakin knows that the Jedi are NOT trying to overthrow the government but instead the Jedi are trying to get it back from the evil one.Yes, but his conflict over wanting Palpatine alive allows him not to think clearly. Before Mace is about to kill Palpatine, Anakin says "It is not the Jedi way. He must live."



It isn't the reason for her death that's in question. It is that fact that he tried to kill her. It's ironic and stupid because the ENTIRE reason he killed Mace, pledged his loyalty to Palpatine, killed younglings and went to the Dark Side was to save Padme from death. Then he chokes her. I'll say it again: Wha? huh?! :confused:That was in a moment of anger when he thought she had betrayed him and had been turned against him by Obi-Wan. As soon as he is in the suit, the first thing he does is show concern for Padmé.



No, Obi didn't want to fight, but he also didn't illustrate that he thought there was any good left in him either, per ROTJ. The pre-fight reasoning was centered around the issues of Palpatine and the government, not about Anakin being good or something of the sort. The warning at the end also had nothing to do with Obi believing there to be good in the boy. It was merely a warning that he wouldn't win.In the middle of the fight when Anakin says that he thinks the Jedi are evil, Obi-Wan says, "Well, then you are lost!" That implies that maybe he wasn't sure before that point, or had hope of saving him.




I never suggested that the technology didn't exist. Obviously it did. The question is in regard to having a complete unique custom evil looking life support system just standing by. There are no other suits like it that we ever see.And I never said it was standing by. I said they could have put it together on the spot. Each person is different, so it wouldn't be practical to have a complete suit in every size readily available for such a rare thing. Droids and technology would probably make it easy to fabricate stuff quickly. That is probably why it is unique. They put it together specifically for him.




A little too quickly and conveniently the way it played on screen. Very much like Palpatine pulling the Vader name out of thin air.The Vader thing may have been out of thin air, but if she had already come up with names, she wouldn't have paused to think of one then.


Of course he'd be angry, but then again, he's the one who A) choked her and B) "broke her heart." And while we're at it, why didn't Anakin/Vader turn at that moment to Palpatine and ask about that secret to bringing back the dead? THAT was the entire motivation for going bad, but it is completely forgotten and ignored at the end. Palps is forgiven for not having the formula and saving the girl and Vader just goes on to be a bad guy for no apparent reason.I didn't realize there was a secret to bring back the dead, only a secret to keep people from dying.

Rocketboy
03-23-2008, 03:06 PM
None of it makes any logical sense.Kind of like pointless Prequel bashing and tunnel vision.
:thumbsup:

stillakid
03-27-2008, 12:25 AM
Kind of like pointless Prequel bashing and tunnel vision.
:thumbsup:

Yes, much like your's and MSP's conclusions about the Prequels. Tunnel vision is the inability to see the big picture when focusing too strongly on minutia. MSP's post lists several quotes from the film that only serve to prove that the character of Anakin is essentially illogical and decidedly bipolar. I could waste time posting moments within the Prequels and the OT that clearly illustrate this, but these proofs have been exhaustively documented for the past several years by myself and many many other true fans of Star Wars.

Apologists and tunnel-vision "fans" will always find ways to justify their unabashed enjoyment of the Prequel films, and that's their business, and I honestly don't care what their reasons or needs are. However the failed arguments will never succeed in altering the reality that the Prequel stories are examples of inferior storytelling in and of themselves as well as failures relative to the established continuity and quality of the Original Trilogy.

Deoxyribonucleic
03-27-2008, 12:38 AM
STOMP STOMP STOMP....creeee eee ee ek...What the hell is going on in here? :tired:

Neuroleptic
03-27-2008, 01:01 AM
Aw this is the best part! Don't break it up now! They were just about to come to fisty cuffs.

Mad Slanted Powers
03-27-2008, 02:22 AM
So what if Anakin is illogical and bipolar? That makes it all the more reasonable to explain his turn to the darkside.