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keith koth
04-02-2003, 11:54 AM
Okay, let us assume that Palpatine was born with "evil" powers, just as Jedi are born with "good" powers. These individuals who are to become Jedi require many years of intense training in order to refine their skills and become Jedi Knights. How did Palpatine refine his Sith skills? Who trained him?

Also, why was Palpatine not recognized as a Sith from the very beginning? I ask this particular question because he was a politician. As we all know, anyone who runs for a public office has their past actions (both public and private) heavily scrutinized. Did Palpatine not have any friends, family, enemies, etc. that could have at least suspected that he was up to no good? No one ever dug up this major piece of information during the campaign process prior to Palpatine's election as Senator of Naboo.

I just can not believe that no one on Naboo ever saw Palpatine practicing/refining his Sith skills.

Any thoughts?

Do you think this information will come to light in EIII?

The Overlord Returns
04-02-2003, 12:00 PM
Hmm.........I see this turning into another "Palpatine is a clone of sidious!!!!!" thread REAL quick ;)

stillakid
04-02-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Okay, let us assume that Palpatine was born with "evil" powers, just as Jedi are born with "good" powers. These individuals who are to become Jedi require many years of intense training in order to refine their skills and become Jedi Knights. How did Palpatine refine his Sith skills? Who trained him?

Also, why was Palpatine not recognized as a Sith from the very beginning? I ask this particular question because he was a politician. As we all know, anyone who runs for a public office has their past actions (both public and private) heavily scrutinized. Did Palpatine not have any friends, family, enemies, etc. that could have at least suspected that he was up to no good? No one ever dug up this major piece of information during the campaign process prior to Palpatine's election as Senator of Naboo.

I just can not believe that no one on Naboo ever saw Palpatine practicing/refining his Sith skills.

Any thoughts?

Do you think this information will come to light in EIII?

There's no way to know just how developed his "sith skills" were while he lived on Naboo.

I'm of the mind that Palpatine grew up as an orphaned child. His street smarts were only outdone by his natural intelligence. With a life of abject poverty and disillusionment, the only way out was to regain control over an otherwise hopeless life.

But as one gains power, it's hold over a person grows and the desire for more and more power grows with it. I believe that it was in that bit of Palpatine's history (as a teenager maybe?) that he realized the potential of politics as a mechanism for gaining more power over his own life and having the ability to manipulate others.

But that kind of power in a democratic system has it's limits, so he went searching for a way to retain what he had built. Somehow, somewhere, he found what he believed to be the "key" to his success. The Force would be his ticket, but only the mythological "Sith teachings" from days long gone could aid him in his quest for control, not the benevolent ways of the Jedi. Perhaps some long lost writings gave him the lessons he needed to harness the power of the Force so he could use it to his advantage.

But at the same time, he knew that as a small pebble causes waves in a pond, his minor dabbling with the Force would also cause ripples which the more numerous Jedi would sense. If he "practiced" too much, if he drew that kind of attention to himself, the Jedi would undoubtedly be alerted to his presence and seek him out.

No, he wouldn't risk that. He was too smart to compromise his plan before it even began. He would wait and only use the tools of the Sith when the puzzle pieces were laid in place.

So, he continued in politics, using his superior intelligence and master plan as a guide to building his career and his influence. He would use the existing elements of the Republic to destroy themselves. No Force training necessary for that. The arrogance and naivete' of The Old Republic would take care of everything for him. Only when the trap was set, would he begin his own formal training so that if ever the time came, he would be ready for a potentially violent confrontation with those who would see him for what he was.

But as we know, by the time anyone realized what was going on, it was too late. The Republic had all but destroyed itself and sitting on top of it's smoking ruins was Palpatine. He only had to recognize the weaknesses of the Republic and it's institutions and set them up for a fall. It doesn't take magical Force ability to accomplish such a thing. It just takes a little foresight and the street smarts of an overly intelligent cast-off youth.

keith koth
04-02-2003, 02:19 PM
Stillakid,

That makes alot of sense. However...

I still have to wonder...if Palpatine did not use his force powers during the time he was a senator (for fear of causing "ripples" in the force), then why did he have so much power over the "masses" (i.e., the Trade Federation, etc.). It was almost as though...no, wait...they did fear him (Darth Sidious). If Palpatine did not display his force powers during his time as senator, I would think that the toughest thugs in the galaxy would have commanded respect and placed themselves in a position to "rule" the galaxy.

At the same time, one must wonder who trained Darth Maul? If your theory stands true, then Palpatine had not yet refined his own skills, let alone have the power to train an apprentice.

Also, why would Maul "bow down" to Palpatine and call him master if Palpatine had not yet achieved Sith Master status?

Further more, why did Maul not create "ripples" in the force? We know for a fact that Maul used force powers...and surely Maul refined these force powers well before his initial confrontation with Qui-Gon on Tatooine.

Other than those tid bits, I like your theory!

stillakid
04-02-2003, 03:36 PM
Good questions. Let me take a stab at them:


Originally posted by keith koth
Stillakid,

That makes alot of sense. However...

I still have to wonder...if Palpatine did not use his force powers during the time he was a senator (for fear of causing "ripples" in the force), then why did he have so much power over the "masses" (i.e., the Trade Federation, etc.). It was almost as though...no, wait...they did fear him (Darth Sidious). If Palpatine did not display his force powers during his time as senator, I would think that the toughest thugs in the galaxy would have commanded respect and placed themselves in a position to "rule" the galaxy.
He didn't really have much power over anyone while he was a Senator. During TPM, we saw him engineer a crisis on Naboo by (evidently) promising the Trade Federation untold riches or something of the sort. Just one example of him seeing a weakness and exploiting it to his advantage. He didn't have to use any kind of "mind control" or anything to get the gutless Trade representatives to fall for his tricks.


Originally posted by keith koth
If Palpatine did not display his force powers during his time as senator, I would think that the toughest thugs in the galaxy would have commanded respect and placed themselves in a position to "rule" the galaxy.
This is open to debate, but using the Prologue to the Star Wars novelization as a guide, we can safely assume that The Old Republic was a very secure institution. Except for the outlying areas, which were under the smarmy influence of gangs (like Jabba the Hutt), the core of the galaxy stood fast under the always watchful eyes of the semi-religious police force (Jedi).

Palpatine correctly reasoned that it would take far more than mere "muscle" to take over the galaxy. No, what was required was an intricate plan, so devious that those involved wouldn't even know it until it was all over. The Prologue describes the Republic as being corroded from the inside out, which is exactly what Palpatine is doing in the Prequels.



Originally posted by keith koth
At the same time, one must wonder who trained Darth Maul? If your theory stands true, then Palpatine had not yet refined his own skills, let alone have the power to train an apprentice.
This problem did come to mind as I wrote the other bit above. How to weave Maul into this? I don't think that it is necessary for the teacher to be able to do what he teaches. It would be enough to simply know how to teach the ways of the Sith.

This actually explains why Palpatine needed to train an apprentice in the first place. Knowing that he would draw attention to himself if he practiced the Sith ways, training an apprentice would both provide the muscle (if needed in the short term), and almost more importantly, it would provide a distraction if the Jedi detected a ripple in the Force. The Jedi would zero in on Maul and believe they eliminated the source of the Force disturbance. This is also why the Jedi can't tell if there really is another Sith or not and who it might be...because Palpatine really isn't using the Force to do any of this.

The only indication we have that any Jedi are sensing a problem is at the beginning of TPM, when Obi Wan suggests that he senses something "elusive." It was Maul he was feeling.


Originally posted by keith koth
Also, why would Maul "bow down" to Palpatine and call him master if Palpatine had not yet achieved Sith Master status?
Palpatine can call himself anything he wants. Plus, if the EU reports are to be taken into account, apparently Maul was brought up from birth by Palpatine. We are more a product of our environment than we care to believe, so it's not improbable that Maul simply didn't know any better. Palpatine raised him to believe that he was his "master," powers or not. Being trained to be as good as he was, Maul had every reason to believe that anyone who could train him so well must be just as good if not better. But there's no reason to believe that Palpatine himself had those capabilities at that time.


Originally posted by keith koth
Further more, why did Maul not create "ripples" in the force? We know for a fact that Maul used force powers...and surely Maul refined these force powers well before his initial confrontation with Qui-Gon on Tatooine.
As above, he did cause those ripples that Obi Wan "sensed" at the beginning of TPM. :)


Originally posted by keith koth
Other than those tid bits, I like your theory!

Thanks

scruffziller
04-02-2003, 04:10 PM
I believe you are born neatural and take a certain path. You are not on a path when you are born, that is why the Jedi wish too take children when they are basically infants because they are innocent and how they are raised determines the outcome.

keith koth
04-02-2003, 05:25 PM
Okay, stillakid...one last piece of the puzzle...

If up to this point Palpatine had not put on a display of force powers, then why was Count Dooku an apprentice to him? It seems to me that Dooku would have told Palpatine to stick it where the sun don't shine and destroyed him with his force lightening rather than play second fiddle to a man who only claimed to be powerful. Palpatine had not raised Dooku from birth, so why did Dooku "bow down" and refer to Darth Sideous as Master?

Here is a thought:

Maybe it was Dooku's intention to betray Sideous and rule the galaxy himself...that is...untill EIII when perhaps...Sideous himself kills dooku after discovering Dooku's plot to betray him.

stillakid
04-02-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Okay, stillakid...one last piece of the puzzle...

If up to this point Palpatine had not put on a display of force powers, then why was Count Dooku an apprentice to him? It seems to me that Dooku would have told Palpatine to stick it where the sun don't shine and destroyed him with his force lightening rather than play second fiddle to a man who only claimed to be powerful. Palpatine had not raised Dooku from birth, so why did Dooku "bow down" and refer to Darth Sideous as Master?

Here is a thought:

Maybe it was Dooku's intention to betray Sideous and rule the galaxy himself...that is...untill EIII when perhaps...Sideous himself kills dooku after discovering Dooku's plot to betray him.

I believe that you're on the right track, though only time will tell. In one of my previous musings on what Episode III might hold for us, I wondered if maybe Anakin would be sent out to kill Dooku. Palpatine will be looking to do away with him and this mission will be just one more piece in Anakin's seduction to the darkside.

But the question is even before that...what about Dooku in-between TPM and AOTC? Since we really have no clue as to what Palpatine did after Maul was dispatched, we can only assume that Palps went looking for a suitable recruit. The ability to think on one's feet is a trait common amongst the most successful people, so despite Palpatine having a master plan, he clearly needed to rearrange things a bit after losing his apprentice. The need for pure brawn was gone, so this next step of the plan required a little more brains...bring in Dooku. Here's a guy who is already skilled with the Force, but perhaps has a streak of arrogance about him. Palpatine recognizes this and takes full advantage by promising Dooku a place in a new regime. We don't know Dooku's past, so maybe he has been previously "wronged" by the Jedi or something. Something that would give him rightful justification (in his eyes anyway) to take down the Jedi and the Republic. So he joins in the plot. He's likely to be just as happy being the #2 guy at Palpatine's side which would result in him not feeling any urgent need to execute his new "master." He'll bide his time until the dust settles, then he'll step up to the plate.

But in Episode III, Dooku's plans are hampered when Anakin is sent out to take him down. Palpatine tells Anakin that he fears that Dooku is out to assasinate him. Anakin truly feels like he's doing the right thing and heads out to finish Dooku off...which he does.

keith koth
04-02-2003, 06:09 PM
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

stillakid
04-02-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

My way makes way too much sense. Lucas would never do it this way, so don't get your hopes up. Expect to see more lame writing like we've already seen in the Prequels.


Anybody got Kasdan's number lying around?

Sith Lord 0498
04-03-2003, 08:23 PM
There is always the possibility that Palpatine was found and trained by a Sith Lord. Probably one of the first things taught to Palpatine (and constantly used by his master) was how to use the Dark Side to "cloud" the Light Side and the Jedi's vision. Remember, Yoda is impossible to see the future because "the Dark Side clouds everything."

Palpatine is likely cloaking himself in the Dark Side to keep himself hidden and remain a "phantom menace." There's no doubt in the Jedi's minds that there is a terrible disturbance in the Force. They just can't pinpoint it.

As far as Darth Maul is concerned, Palpatine likely used his powers to conceal Maul while he was still early in his training. Later, Palpatine either taught Maul how to conceal himself or he continued providing that support. After all, Darth Maul was clearly anxious to "reveal themselves to the Jedi." Maybe he meant reveal in more ways than one.

TheDarthVader
04-04-2003, 02:26 PM
What if there is a sith master that is still alive that has trained palpatine, and we will not see him until epIII ? Palpatine, by then, has grown so strong in the force that he can "take out" the master who instructed him. For the sith, it has always been like this...fighting for power that one would even kill his own ally in order to better himself. Just a thought ;)

keith koth
04-04-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by TheDarthVader
What if there is a sith master that is still alive that has trained palpatine, and we will not see him until epIII ? Palpatine, by then, has grown so strong in the force that he can "take out" the master who instructed him. For the sith, it has always been like this...fighting for power that one would even kill his own ally in order to better himself. Just a thought ;)

I will answer this with 2 quotes from Episode I:

"Always two there are"

Palpatine + Maul = 2 and Palpatine + Dooku = 2

"The Sith have been Extince for over a millennia"

These 2 qoutes do not support your theory.

stillakid
04-04-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by keith koth
I will answer this with 2 quotes from Episode I:

"Always two there are"

Palpatine + Maul = 2 and Palpatine + Dooku = 2

"The Sith have been Extince for over a millennia"

These 2 qoutes do not support your theory.

Yeah, but what happened before Maul was born?

And, unless Dooku was waiting in the Sith Pez Dispenser at the end of TPM, there was an interim period of only ONE Sith.


However, IF George does it my way :rolleyes: in Episode III, the changing of the guard, as it were, would be instantaneous, as Anakin kills Dooku thus securing his place as the next Sith.

But George won't.

keith koth
04-04-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Yeah, but what happened before Maul was born?

And, unless Dooku was waiting in the Sith Pez Dispenser at the end of TPM, there was an interim period of only ONE Sith.


However, IF George does it my way :rolleyes: in Episode III, the changing of the guard, as it were, would be instantaneous, as Anakin kills Dooku thus securing his place as the next Sith.

But George won't.

Okay, let me take a crack at this one. Here is the hypothetical situation:

1. Sith have been extinct for over a millennia
2. Palpatine discovers some ancient writings describing the powers of the "dark force" and begins to practice this ancient art in "theory".
3. Palpatine learns the skills, but (as you stated in an earlier post above) he never uses his skills out of fear of causing ripples in the force.
4. Palpatine trains Maul in dark force theory.
5. Both Palpatine & Maul simultaneously begin "physically" practicing the "dark force".
6. Poof, now there are 2 practicing Sith, where before there were none.

As far as Dooku and the interim period...I'm assuming that Dooku had already left the Jedi Order before the beginning of EI. Dooku was disenchanted with the Jedi Order and began to take the easier path of the Dark Side.

Now I will borrow from another post of yours regarding the "bell curve" theory of "balance" in the force:

Darth Maul was the Second most powerful "dark force" practitioner, while Dooku was Third...placing Dooku just outside of the "Sith worthy" percentile. After Maul was eliminated, Dooku moved up in the percentile rankings allowing him to immediately step in as the next Sith apprentice.

Jaff
04-05-2003, 10:57 AM
Trying to explain Palpatines powers is a tough debate for different people. It could be as complicated as Cloning, but I think the answer is fairly simple. Has anyone ever heard the term wunderkin. That's wonder boy in German. People like Piccasso, Babe Ruth, Einstien. They were way beyond us in a talent or skill naturally. Palpatine would have had to be that if all other explanations are not available. He found out he had skills like reading minds, sensing other powers, moving objects, but he hid it for somereason maybe thinking he was a freek. The most important thing is his discipline. In the films he is patient, methodical and tactful. Obviously this is a life long commitment. With such character traits his sith powers would have grown significantly advanced from many other Jedi.