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stillakid
04-03-2003, 12:14 PM
it's obvious that Lucas feels no particular loyalty to his original plan or the continuity that he already committed to film....

...however, for what it's worth, I found this version of a shooting script for ROTJ. In it, it not only states that Owen is Ben's brother (which is out the window), but it also states that Anakin left home without knowing that Padme was pregnant (which should have been obvious to everyone anyway.) The only reason I bring it up is because I occassionally see speculation about EP III which includes Anakin knowing about the pregnancy before hitting the road. This, of course, doesn't definitively put that idea to bed, as the whole Owen thing attests to, but this was Lucas's (at least Kasdan's) original intention anyway.

Return of the Jedi Shooting Script (http://www.bus.miami.edu/~jdavis/Starwars/jedi.html)


BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your
feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of
lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of
course. But it was a title without real
power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following
in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell
in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.
Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the
Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force
is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You
must face and destroy Vader!

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 01:55 PM
However, neither Owen as bens brother, or anakin not knowing about the pregnancy made it into the theatrical release, hence neither scene has any bearing on the overall story.

It is just as plausible That anakin believes Padme and children were killed before the birth.

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 04:01 PM
Also, lets look at actual text from the OT that would support the notion that Anakin atleast KNEW of the twins conception.

In ANH, Ben says to luke, regarding the lightsaber:

"You're father wanted you to have this when you were old enough"

IF Anakin did not know Padme was pregnant, then this dialogue leads us back to the Ben Kenobi: filthy liar problem you hate so much ;)

stillakid
04-03-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Also, lets look at actual text from the OT that would support the notion that Anakin atleast KNEW of the twins conception.

In ANH, Ben says to luke, regarding the lightsaber:

"You're father wanted you to have this when you were old enough"

IF Anakin did not know Padme was pregnant, then this dialogue leads us back to the Ben Kenobi: filthy liar problem you hate so much ;)

Touche'! :)

You've found the achilles heal of my consistent argument! You win!!!!! :)

In every other case, I've not used my own speculation nor interpretation to draw conclusions. I've merely taken every word or action at face value.

However, this line of dialogue you bring up is probably the only one that I can safely say that Obi Wan is half-fibbing on. But not out of manipulation, but out of a sense of trying to give Luke a memento, if you will, of his father.

So, no, absolutely not, this line does not prove that Anakin knew that he had children on the way based on this line. It was merely a statement by Ben that wasn't entirely truthful. We can speculate that perhaps Ben figured that the good Anakin (before the evil alter ego Darth Vader killed him) would have wanted Luke to have his lightsaber. This "interpretation" of that line more than adequately "fixes" any problem that might have existed. :D

And before you say anything, yes, I realize that I am :eek: rationalizing this line of dialogue, but if it's a fair tool for the Prequel Defenders, why not for me? ;)

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
And before you say anything, yes, I realize that I am :eek: rationalizing this line of dialogue, but if it's a fair tool for the Prequel Defenders, why not for me? ;)

Hey, I wasn't going to say anything, as I'm not a "prequel defender" as you call them.

However, all I was really doing was taking the line at it's total literal value. If we believe each line in sw to be fact, we draw from this conclusion is that Anakin said some day he would like to give his lightsaber to his son.

The real lesson here is that not all lines can be taken literally. Certainly Ben is not telling the literal truth when he says "darth vader betrayed and murdered your father" as Darth Vader IS his father. It becomes obvious that kenobi is willing to bend the truth, and tell luke things that will lead him to join kenobi and save the princess.

Ben isn't a "filthy liar", but he is willing to manipulate and spin the story in the way he feels will best lead Luke to his destiny.

stillakid
04-03-2003, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Hey, I wasn't going to say anything, as I'm not a "prequel defender" as you call them.

However, all I was really doing was taking the line at it's total literal value. If we believe each line in sw to be fact, we draw from this conclusion is that Anakin said some day he would like to give his lightsaber to his son.

The real lesson here is that not all lines can be taken literally. Certainly Ben is not telling the literal truth when he says "darth vader betrayed and murdered your father" as Darth Vader IS his father. It becomes obvious that kenobi is willing to bend the truth, and tell luke things that will lead him to join kenobi and save the princess.

Ben isn't a "filthy liar", but he is willing to manipulate and spin the story in the way he feels will best lead Luke to his destiny.

I almost agree. :) It comes down to semantics, but Darth Vader isn't Luke's father...Anakin is. Same body, different personalities. Maybe it's cutting hairs, but as I've mentioned previously, Ben truly believed Anakin to be dead and gone, even though the fleshy body still jetted around the galaxy. So he didn't "lie" to Luke as your last statement suggests ("manipulate and spin a story..."). I'll agree that he probably wanted to get Luke on the road and off the farm, but he didn't phrase the history the way he did out of manipulation, rather he did it that way because it's what he really believed to be true. For Obi Wan, Anakin Skywalker was dead and gone. In fact, he believed it so much (and Yoda too), that they were genuinely surprised when Luke came back to ask the question. They figured that Anakin was so dead (even Vader says it: "That name no longer has meaning for me!") that this Vader personality wouldn't even remember it. What a shock for everyone involved! Now Luke's insistence that "there is still good in him" has the potential to be true. Which is when Spirit Ben tells Luke that he must face him. That's the only way to finish this.

The Overlord Returns
04-03-2003, 06:07 PM
Luke: Is Darth Vader my father"

Yoda:....."your father he is".

Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person, atleast in yodas eyes.

It is semantics, but I agree, ben did feel anakin was truly dead. However, it was Ben who fought anakin last, and it was ben who caused anakin to be physically destroyed. If he had told the truth about this, he risked angering luke and failing in his objective of getting luke to follow him.

DarthChuckMc
04-03-2003, 06:18 PM
I think the way Ben feels about Anakin is the way some people would describe a family member that has wronged them as saying "He's dead to me." Kinda like a Mafia boss upset when one of his "family" does something like steal from him, or squeals to the cops. Only, Ben's feelings aren't one of hate, but of disappointment since Anakin choose the easy path. So, from a certain point of view, Anakin WAS dead to him. When Anakin turns to the darkside, and begins hunting down and slaughtering Jedi, from Ben's perspective, Anakin's "spirit" or "soul" was dead, because anyone that would do something so twisted and evil as turning on his "family" the way he does, would probably be considered heartless, and without compassion.

Kidhuman
04-25-2003, 03:52 PM
Well Anakin also took on another name which in turn proves that Anakin no longer exsists. It was like he went into the Empire Witness Program.

Brainiak76
05-01-2003, 02:45 AM
thats a good point bout ben sayin "your father wanted you to have this" but he could have just been saying that to get luke intriged and get him to become a jedi!