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stillakid
04-03-2003, 09:02 PM
March 31, 2003

Oil industry suppressed plans for 200-mpg car
By Simon de Bruxelles



THE original blueprints for a device that could have revolutionised the motor car have been discovered in the secret compartment of a tool box.
A carburettor that would allow a car to travel 200 miles on a gallon of fuel caused oil stocks to crash when it was announced by its Canadian inventor Charles Nelson Pogue in the 1930s.

But the carburettor was never produced and, mysteriously, Pogue went overnight from impoverished inventor to the manager of a successful factory making oil filters for the motor industry. Ever since, suspicion has lingered that oil companies and car manufacturers colluded to bury Pogue’s invention.

Now a retired Cornish mechanic has enlisted the help of the University of Plymouth to rebuild Pogue’s revolutionary carburettor, known as the Winnipeg, from blueprints he found hidden beneath a sheet of plywood in the box.

The controversial plans once caused panic among oil companies and rocked the Toronto Stock Exchange when tests carried out on the carburettor in the 1930s proved that it worked.

Patrick Davies, 72, from St Austell, had owned the tool box for 40 years but only recently decided to clean it out. As well as drawings of the carburettor, the envelope contained two pages of plans, three test reports and six pages of notes written by Pogue.

They included a report of a test that Pogue had done on his lawnmower, which showed that he had managed to make the engine run for seven days on a quart (just under a litre) of petrol.

The documents also described how the machine worked by turning petrol into a vapour before it entered the cylinder chamber, reducing the amount of fuel needed for combustion.

Mr Davies has had the patent number on the plans authenticated, proving that they are genuine documents.

He said: “I couldn’t believe what I saw. I used to be a motor mechanic and I knew this was something else altogether. I was given the tool box by a friend after I helped to paint her house in 1964. Her husband had spent a lot of time in Canada.”

The announcement of Pogue’s invention caused enormous excitement in the American motor industry in 1933, when he drove 200 miles on one gallon of fuel in a Ford V8. However, the Winnipeg was never manufactured commercially and after 1936 it disappeared altogether amid allegations of a political cover-up.

Dr Murray Bell, of the University of Plymouth’s department of mechanical and marine engineering, said he would consider trying to build a model of the Pogue carburettor.

Engineers who have tried in the past to build a carburettor using Pogue’s theories have found the results less than satisfactory. Charles Friend, of Canada’s National Research Council, told Marketplace, a consumer affairs programme: “You can get fantastic mileage if you’re prepared to de-rate the vehicle to a point where, for example, it might take you ten minutes to accelerate from 0 to 30 miles an hour.”




thoughts?

Deoxyribonucleic
04-03-2003, 10:31 PM
I have SO much to say about the oil/automobile industry that I can't even begin!

I know that doesn't help at all.

If this is genuine and if it would work in automobiles today, and by that I mean, the same speeds, horsepower, basically not much change except more mileage (because otherwise there'd be an uproar) etc. then I'd be the first in line to try it!

It will be interesting to see what comes about because something's gotta give soon. The oil/automobile industry reminds me of a festering, puss-ridden sore that's built up so much pressure that the slightest bump will make it explode and dry up and that's why we can't put ointment on it (new carb) because they know this to be true and then they'd lose all their stinkin billions and trillions of dollars - the 1% that is!!!

Ok, I gotta stop or I'll go on forever and probably get myself banned, which I wouldn't blame anyone for, because let me tell ya, I can GO ON about this subject!

plasticfetish
04-04-2003, 04:38 AM
That's pretty interesting ... I've heard stories like it before and I'm not surprised at all. I do question the realities behind getting a 1930s v8 engine to get anywhere near 200 mpg. (Perhaps 20 mpg with a little luck.)

"The documents also described how the machine worked by turning petrol into a vapour before it entered the cylinder chamber, reducing the amount of fuel needed for combustion."

That's really what your average carburetor does anyway ... in the case of an older v8, you're needing to deal with a number of other issues that would lower its performance (bad compression, funky ignition.)

The guys "lawnmower test" is pretty cool. I used to build older Vespas and a well tuned bike could run at 100 mpg. Those are 125 to 200 cc ... bigger than a mower and carry a load ... so I could see his test being real.

I suppose at this point it doesn't matter anymore what the oil industry has or will do ... the auto industry (US included for once) is starting to see the writing on the wall and look for new options. Once it finally becomes "patriotic" to care about the kind of mileage that your car gets ... perhaps we'll see fewer Hummers in civilian hands and a few more hybrids, EVs or (cross your fingers) someday fuel cell vehicles.

In the meantime ... I'll be trying to get perhaps 8 mpg or more from my own 40 year old v8.

jeddah
04-04-2003, 05:52 AM
Me too, but I give up as it only gives me angst :D Not just oil industry but also look into Tesla :)

jeddah

EricRG
04-04-2003, 07:08 AM
If it makes you angry, DO something about it. Complaining does NOTHING.

derek
04-04-2003, 07:20 AM
where did you find this article? is the journalist and site credible, or is he of the "art bell, everything's a conspiracy, we blew up the world trade centers" variety?

Fulit
04-04-2003, 08:39 AM
I don't believe it for a second. Oil companies and the political figures that they are tied to have never been anything but forthcoming with us. Now, pardon me as I get into my S.U.V. and drive a block for some Cheetos.

The Overlord Returns
04-04-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Fulit
I don't believe it for a second. Oil companies and the political figures that they are tied to have never been anything but forthcoming with us. Now, pardon me as I get into my S.U.V. and drive a block for some Cheetos.

HI - Larious!!

This shouldn't really come as a shock, as this seemed to happen often with revolutionary inventions during the earlier parts of the industrial revolution. Someone mentioned Tesla, who edison did everything he could to destroy. There is also the example of the Avro Arrow, destroyed by worried aerospace companies. They say to this day it still could out perform modern fighter jets...


I'm sure some day we'll discover the shelved blue prints for a car that runs on water ;)

JEDIpartner
04-04-2003, 09:24 AM
for the most part... I know people who have SUVs who now think they S-U-C-K because of the gas prices. I just have to laugh... sorry. But, I really do... $55 for a fill-up each week??? That's nonsense.

Well... if it exists... bring it on!!

QLD
04-04-2003, 09:35 AM
Only takes $30 for a fillup, but then again, I am in GA, who has the cheapest gas prices in the country.

If they release a car with better feul burning capabilities, then I will buy it. Water, pee, sand, doesn't matter what it runs on. If they build it, I will come.

I am currently trying to build a car that is feuled by the bad acting performance of Hayden in AOTC. There is more un-tapped energy there than anywhere else I have seen in the world. :crazed:

darthvyn
04-04-2003, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by plasticfetish
I suppose at this point it doesn't matter anymore what the oil industry has or will do ... the auto industry (US included for once) is starting to see the writing on the wall and look for new options. Once it finally becomes "patriotic" to care about the kind of mileage that your car gets ... perhaps we'll see fewer Hummers in civilian hands and a few more hybrids, EVs or (cross your fingers) someday fuel cell vehicles.

only problem is, the fuel cells still need to be manufactured - i'm assuming you mean hydrogen cells... hydrogen isn't a naturally occuring element. it has to be formed from water (or another molecule that contains H...) and that takes energy. the only REALLY pure and efficient way to create the hydrogen is to set up a hydroelectric plant to generate the energy capacity to create hydrogen and oxygen out of the very water that is creating the energy... either that, or solar power, but that was swallowed up whole by the energy companies a LOOOONNNNG time ago, even though it's basically the only limitless resource and it is very low cost to harvest, but that means they can't charge a lot for it, so they will only go where the bills are still high...


Originally posted by plasticfetish
In the meantime ... I'll be trying to get perhaps 8 mpg or more from my own 40 year old v8.

oh, man, and i thought i had it bad... i get 12 at best around town in my LT1 caprice... i definitely plan on my next car being a hybrid, balance out the cost of gas between the two...

sith_killer_99
04-04-2003, 11:09 AM
Simon de Bruxelles, has written for, London Times, he even did a piece or two on de-bunking UFO stuff. He seems like a solid writter, but I only read a little about him.

Rogue II
04-04-2003, 11:28 AM
QLD LIMP's bad acting powered car idea is pretty good. Pop in the ATOC DVD and roll.

Awww, screw it. Let's all get big wheels!:crazed:

Dr Zoltar
04-04-2003, 11:49 AM
jeddah,

I agree with you on Tesla. Just got done reading a book on his life. Free electricity for everyone! Down with Edison!

We could also add to the list of auto conspiracies:

The reason we don't have more alternative fuel vehicles is because the oil companies own all the patents for all the alternative fuels. That's why solar powered cars were never created en masse.

Why don't we have hover cars? Because the tire companies would go out of business and actively legislate to not have hover vehicles created.

Of course, these are just rumours and I have no proof to back any of this up... : )

2-1B
04-04-2003, 11:55 AM
I wish we could find a way to turn the oil back into dinosaurs.

Patient Zero
04-04-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Dr Zoltar
Why don't we have hover cars? Because the tire companies would go out of business and actively legislate to not have hover vehicles created.

Of course, these are just rumours and I have no proof to back any of this up... : )


And on that note, do you know that the technology to make lightbulbs that last for 20 years has been around for about 15 years. However if they were introduced into the market, the companies would go out of business.

Rogue II
04-04-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
I wish we could find a way to turn the oil back into dinosaurs.

I don't know, I saw this movie where they brought dinosaurs back to life. It wasn't pretty.

Porcelina
04-04-2003, 01:45 PM
apparently, with only a minor adjustment, you can make a regular car run on hemp oil... woody harrelson tours around the US teaching people how to do it! :D

keith koth
04-04-2003, 02:30 PM
When I started college, many of my friends went into petroleum engineering as their major. Needless to say, years later I am no longer friends with any of those people.

I hate oil companies...no, I take that back...I HATE big business...they are the people who really run our country by buying and spouting legislation that only benefits themselves and their bank accounts.

Bring back the local Mom & Pop shops!

Exhaust Port
04-04-2003, 02:39 PM
Turn the oil into plastic and then form the plastic into little (or big) dinosaurs. Bingo, oil into dinosaurs. :)

I don't buy this story one bit. If it really worked the military would be using it in some sort of machine. The M1A1 Abrams gets 2 gallons to the mile, I think they could improve on that fuel economy a bit.

The Overlord Returns
04-04-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port
Turn the oil into plastic and then form the plastic into little (or big) dinosaurs. Bingo, oil into dinosaurs. :)

I don't buy this story one bit. If it really worked the military would be using it in some sort of machine. The M1A1 Abrams gets 2 gallons to the mile, I think they could improve on that fuel economy a bit.

By that logic, wouldn't they also be using the lightbulbs that last for 20 years in govt. and military institutions? ;)

James Boba Fettfield
04-04-2003, 02:56 PM
I read about a machine in the recent Discover magazine that can turn most waste products into oil and other products (lots of water is produced though). From unusuable chicken pieces from Tyson to human waste. Crazy stuff.

plasticfetish
04-04-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
only problem is, the fuel cells still need to be manufactured - i'm assuming you mean hydrogen cells...
Yeah, hydrogen ... but I've also heard of methanol and even gasoline fuel cell engines. Sure, there's a lot to be developed and manufactured ... I can't imagine the cost of producing hydrogen comes anywhere near as high as the "cost" we have to pay for producing gasoline. The automotive industries can smell money now, so they're putting money into developing the technology. With what Exhaust Port just said about the amazingly pathetic fuel performance of an Abrams ... I can imagine the military wanting to "help" in its own little way by tossing a few dollars toward development. You can hate big business and the military all you want, but that's where the change really comes from.


Originally posted by darthvyn
oh, man, and i thought i had it bad... i get 12 at best around town in my LT1 caprice... i definitely plan on my next car being a hybrid, balance out the cost of gas between the two...
Funny ... as soon as my current Toyota hits 300,000 miles (or explodes trying) we're going for a Prius.


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
There is also the example of the Avro Arrow, destroyed by worried aerospace companies.
I thought it was killed by the Canadian government after the US convinced them that jet fighters were a waste of time (hah.) A great number of the US aerospace brains came out of that program ... and then oddly enough the US started developing some pretty interesting jets.

Vortex
04-04-2003, 03:08 PM
Wasn't the old homage, one cup of gasoline vapor was equal to a stick or two of good old TNT?

Well at some point in the future, we will sap the oil and we'll have to do something.

Hard part is hitting these corps. in the pocket book and taking away their 3 Mill end of the year bonus.

The Overlord Returns
04-04-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by plasticfetish

I thought it was killed by the Canadian government after the US convinced them that jet fighters were a waste of time (hah.) A great number of the US aerospace brains came out of that program ... and then oddly enough the US started developing some pretty interesting jets.

My understanding is that cold war paranoia had a lot to do with it on both sides of the border. The worry was that the info on such an advanced project could fall into soviet hands. However, you are correct, much of the technology and brains behoind the arow led to some very modern fighter jets today.

stillakid
04-04-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by plasticfetish
You can hate big business and the military all you want, but that's where the change really comes from.


Well, that and porn. :D

Fulit
04-04-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina
apparently, with only a minor adjustment, you can make a regular car run on hemp oil... woody harrelson tours around the US teaching people how to do it! :D

Yeah, but a commercial funded by the federal government told me that drugs fund terrorism, even hemp that comes from MEXICO!
:rolleyes:

JediTricks
04-04-2003, 05:29 PM
I would assume this gasoline vaporization would be much finer than how engines currently work, probably something along the lines of vaporizing it so fine that it's nearly a gas - which would make it very effective as a fuel but also more dangerous. I would not be surprised if this existed then, both my grandfathers were aerospace engineers and have seen and designed advanced technology waaaay back in the day. My grandfather on my father's side was a professor at UCLA in the '50s and taught stuff like electromagnetic propulsion (such as the "caterpiller drive" seen in the film The Hunt for Red October) that still today are cutting edge technologies.


Originally posted by EricRG
If it makes you angry, DO something about it. Complaining does NOTHING. Complaining is doing something. :D


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
I'm sure some day we'll discover the shelved blue prints for a car that runs on water ;)
We've known about cars that run on water for over 100 years, they ran on steam. ;)


Originally posted by Lando In My Pants
If they release a car with better feul burning capabilities, then I will buy it. Water, sand, doesn't matter what it runs on. If they build it, I will come. What about diesel? I may not like my dad's old Mercedes 240D with it's funky sound and less-than-sporty performance, but it's fairly effecient AND with some minor modifications could run on any combustable liquid. There's a dude who converted his diesel Mercedes to run on recycled cooking oil.


Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
By that logic, wouldn't they also be using the lightbulbs that last for 20 years in govt. and military institutions? ;) I bought a low-useage lightbulb from Wal-mart a year ago, it's lasted easily 20 times as long as a regular bulb and has saved me a few bucks a month on electricity, yet the government doesn't use these bulbs - my guess is probably due to contracts with fluorecent bulb companies or something, it's not like they can renege on the contract... well, it's the gov't, they could but I doubt they will. ;)


Originally posted by Fulit
Yeah, but a commercial funded by the federal government told me that drugs fund terrorism, even hemp that comes from MEXICO!
:rolleyes: Hemp is a legally-grown crop here in the US because it has many, MANY purposes, it's simply neutered to prevent it creating THC - the chemical that makes up the drug properties of marijuana. I believe hemp oil is not as effecient a fuel as corn oil. While hemp has tons of uses as a textile, as paper, rope, even medicinal uses, corn can be turned into a plastic so it wins. :D

Exhaust Port
04-05-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
There is also the example of the Avro Arrow, destroyed by worried aerospace companies. They say to this day it still could out perform modern fighter jets...

The Avro Arrow program was dumped by the Canadian Minister of National Defense because he considered the program not to be cost effective compared to a missle system (the Bomarc Missile). They also took note if they ever wanted a similar aircraft they could go to the US and get the product cheaper.

While the Arrow incorperated a lot of firsts into its design a lot of the performance numbers are up in the air as the prototypes were never tested to their full potential. It might have become a great fighter but it's 50's technology wouldn't stand up very well against those modern fighters of the world.

Porcelina
04-06-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks

I believe hemp oil is not as effecient a fuel as corn oil. While hemp has tons of uses as a textile, as paper, rope, even medicinal uses, corn can be turned into a plastic so it wins. :D

hmph!

fine!

BUT hemp oil is high in essential fatty acids, and better as a food than corn oil!

so there!

:p ;)

RooJay
04-07-2003, 06:58 PM
Urban Legends - 200mpg Car (http://www.snopes.com/index.html)

You will find this article under "Automobiles: Better Business". Decide for yourself.

Exhaust Port
04-07-2003, 11:18 PM
Well, that just about wraps up this thread.

Now, how about Cold Fussion. I believe the government is keeping that from us as well! :D

darthvyn
04-08-2003, 12:37 AM
well, if a website says another website is wrong, i guess it's wrong... :rolleyes: :D

Exhaust Port
04-08-2003, 09:23 AM
This 200 mpg car is one of those self-fullfilling prophecies. Critics/skeptics ask for proof and the story goes that "the man" confiscated everything, the creator was strangely quite or died of mysterious causes, etc.

There should be enough clues through any of the versions of the story to back up some of the claims.

The Stock Exchange was "rocked" by the announcement of the tests? I'm record of the SE still exists. Show that.

..."rocked" by the announement of the tests?" Where are the orginal announcements from the 30's? Did the "man" confiscate every paper, magazine or periodical that mention the tests?

The blueprints and patents have been verified authentic. Let's see them. At least quote the patent number.

An invention or theory is only good if it can be reproduced. The plans exist and no one is driving around in 200 mpg cars now. Fishy.